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Tuesday, August 11, 2015

We have precedent

Sasquan deems Lou Antonelli in violation of their Code of Conduct:
The Executive Committee of Sasquan, the 73rd World Science Fiction Convention, would like to address the matter of actions taken by Mr. Lou Antonelli with regards to one of our Guests of Honor, Mr. David Gerrold. On August 1st, Mr. Antonelli participated in a podcast in which he stated that he had written a letter to the Spokane Police Department, in which he stated to them that Mr. Gerrold was "insane and a public danger and needs to be watched when the convention is going on".

Normally, online communications between members is not something in Sasquan's purview to referee. However, Mr. Antonelli's letter, which requested police action against Mr. Gerrold during the time of the convention, is within our purview. As such, we found that there was a strong possibility this act was a violation of our posted harassment policy[1], particularly if the letter had, in fact, been sent.

The Executive Committee then turned the matter over to our Operations Head, Ms. Robbie Bourget, who initiated formal proceedings in accordance with that policy. During these proceedings, it came to light that Mr. Antonelli had issued a formal apology to Mr. Gerrold and admitted culpability: he actually sent the letter, not merely claimed to have sent it.

We thoroughly reviewed all available data, including email from both involved parties, social media postings, discussions with key committee members, and so forth. The inescapable conclusion was that Mr. Antonelli had violated our Code of Conduct in this matter. The recommendation was to refund Mr. Antonelli's membership and prohibit his entry to any convention location or function. However, after the recommendation was made, Mr. Gerrold, as the aggrieved party, specifically requested that the Executive Committee set aside this recommendation on the grounds that Mr. Antonelli did apologize, is sending a retraction to the Spokane Police Department and because, as a Hugo Nominee, he deserves to attend the ceremony.

The Executive Committee has chosen to accept Mr. Gerrold's request, and considers the matter closed as of this time. Ms. Bourget has spoken and corresponded with the Spokane Police Department, and they also consider the matter closed. We would like to thank Ms. Bourget for the calm professionalism she lent to the proceedings, and Mr. Antonelli and Mr. Gerrold for coming to a settlement that benefits not just them, but the Worldcon and its members.
So, a single letter is sufficient to comprise code of conduct-violating harassment. This is good to know. Perhaps we should do a little looking into who contacted The Guardian, the New Zealand Herald, and other media outlets concerning Sad Puppies, as that most certainly constitutes harassment according to the Executive Committee.

Sad and Rabid Puppies, if you're going to Sasquan, make sure you know the Code of Conduct cold, and if anyone so much as puts a toe across the line, shriek bloody murder. The precedent has now been set by the SJWs. Make use of it.

We already know that people have expressed similarly harassing concerns to Kevin Standlee, so keep your eyes open. Black knight them twice as hard. And for the love of all that is good, holy, and true, do NOT apologize to SJWs. Ever. Under any circumstances. How hard is this to understand?

I repeat: you never, ever, apologize to SJWs.

UPDATE: This comment at File 770 will likely amuse the VFM:
One of the things that has been so atrocious about Puppygate is the way the Puppies seem not to give a damn about the collateral damage of their actions.
They're just noticing this now? What part of "we don't care" was hard to understand?

Labels: ,

79 Comments:

Blogger Alexander August 11, 2015 4:33 PM  

Coming soon: demanding the Code of Conduct be upheld to the letter is harassment.

On another note, he should not have apologized. Have we not been told time and time again by our beloved government: If you see something, say something. He did not claim that Gerrold had done something, but had concerns that he might. Surely if we feel concern, we are to report it to the authorities. Surely anyone trying to prohibit this is censoring, shaming, pressuring the victim, or any other number of badfeels.

But because he apologized, it is harassment.

Blogger RobertT August 11, 2015 4:54 PM  

Good point Alexander. My mantra is, never apologize. But there's another mantra, you can't get sued for something you don't say. I live the first one and wish I lived the second one.

Blogger Salt August 11, 2015 4:57 PM  

The FB comments are the SJWs with their panties in a wad. Waaaaa! Waaaaa!

Blogger automatthew August 11, 2015 5:12 PM  

Coming soon: demanding the Code of Conduct be upheld to the letter is harassment.

Of course. It all depends on who is demanding of whom.

Anonymous Quintus Maximus August 11, 2015 5:15 PM  

OK, I've gone full over to the 'this thing needs to burn to the ground' zone. Worldcon is no longer rational or defensible. Perfect example of 'even if you apologize they will demand their pound of flesh.'

Blogger MendoScot August 11, 2015 5:15 PM  

@2 RobertT But there's another mantra, you can't get sued for something you don't say.

See hate crime.

OT but blue/pink related: In an otherwise entirely uninteresting interview with Michael Moorcock, this nugget:

One of his guiding lights, he tells me, is The Pilgrim’s Progress. ‘It was the first book I ever bought with my own money. It was threepence, secondhand… from that moment on, I believed you had to tell at least two stories in a story, if not more.’

Anonymous Quintus Maximus August 11, 2015 5:19 PM  

@1 Alexander: read the thread. A good portion of them already ARE demanding letter of the law.

"Jonathan Woodward Harassment policies that aren't enforced are *bad* harassment policies."

"Leigh Ann Hildebrand My concern here is that in general, a harassment policy that can be negated if someone says, 'Oh, I forgive them, it's okay' is a bad harassment policy"

"Meriah Crawford I want to add my assertion that this is a very poor decision. It's not up to the victim to make this decision. It's your obligation to protect every person at the con from behavior like this. "

and on and on.

Anonymous Nathan August 11, 2015 5:29 PM  

James May's collection of quotes might come in handy. Oh, and if anyone has record of the death threats sent to Hugo nominees that Mary Robinette Kowal blogged about...

Anonymous Boogeyman VFM #240 August 11, 2015 5:30 PM  

We have incoming geese! Quick, man the gander cannon!

Anonymous Anonymous1 August 11, 2015 5:52 PM  

Gerrold's a class act. Lou, off kilter and erratic.

You all attract a certain personality type and repulse another, that's for sure.

Anonymous Quintus Maximus August 11, 2015 5:56 PM  

@10 Anonymous1 Thats laugh out loud funny anon. Gerrold started the entire bullshit when he started threatening to get people blackballed, and we're the ones with personality defects? Go kindly pound sand, it's about all one of your mental stature is capable of.

Anonymous I Am Irony, Man August 11, 2015 5:56 PM  

Anonymous1 @10: "You all attract a certain personality type..."

Well, we sure did attract you here, so you would also be one of that type....right?

Blogger maniacprovost August 11, 2015 5:57 PM  

I can certainly be described as off kilter and erratic, but I have not been impressed by Gerrold, despite our shared appreciation for Star Wolf. In this case it appears he has acted rightly.

Blogger Sean Carnegie August 11, 2015 6:02 PM  

I will be in Spokane then for work. What can I do to help completely wreck things for the SJW crowd?

Blogger Giuseppe August 11, 2015 6:05 PM  

@14 wear a VFM T-Shirt?

OpenID corvinus333 August 11, 2015 6:05 PM  

@3 Salt

Commenting in the open with their public FB accounts? Those SJWs need to check their privilege. /smh

Blogger Richard Brandt August 11, 2015 6:08 PM  

Oh, back when I was a journalist, I think we called that a NEWS TIP.

Or perhaps INTERN GOOGLING FOR ANYTHING NEWSWORTHY THAT WEEKEND.

Anonymous Steve August 11, 2015 6:16 PM  

Leigh Ann Hildebrand is concerned that Lou Antonelli's fans/supporters are "threatening women".

Leigh Ann Hildebrand
You don't know what you could do short of killing yourself? How about proactively responding to concerns raised when your fans/supporters threaten women?


Seems legit. Apparently she found out about the nefarious woman-threatening plan after she bravely infiltrated one of those damn Puppy secret meetings, while cunningly disguised as Wendell the Manatee.

Anonymous Viidad August 11, 2015 6:29 PM  

@ Steve

Wonderfully cruel. I salute you.

Blogger VD August 11, 2015 6:32 PM  

What can I do to help completely wreck things for the SJW crowd?

Introduce yourself as me.

Blogger Zeke OF Confettii August 11, 2015 6:42 PM  

"We Don't Care" is spoken English. They seem to have a problem with the language.

Blogger Jim August 11, 2015 6:46 PM  

One of the things that has been so atrocious about Puppygate is the way the Puppies seem not to give a damn about the collateral damage of their actions.

How cute. He thinks the damage is collateral. Makes me wonder what he thinks the "real" target is, and whether it would be fun to get them to isolate it for us.

"Hey SJWs, I think you've got a real good message, but as long as you associate with Irene Gallo, you're compromised. Best denounce her and chase her...BWAHAHAHA..."

Sorry, couldn't keep the straight face long enough.

Anonymous Trimegistus August 11, 2015 6:51 PM  

I do think it would be fun for some VFM to simply attend panels by SJW writers and bring it to the attention of the Con Committee if any of them do or say something which might constitute a "hostile environment." You just KNOW they won't be able to restrain themselves . . .

Blogger Krul August 11, 2015 6:56 PM  

"One of the things that has been so atrocious about Puppygate is the way the Puppies seem not to give a damn about the collateral damage of their actions."

The Puppies have been loudly announcing what they're doing and why all along, and yet the SJW's are always shocked when they actually do it and actually mean it. The level of willful obliviousness is bizarre.

The Pirates of Penzance could sneak up on these guys.

Blogger Jack Ward August 11, 2015 7:14 PM  

@VD 20
Introduce yourself as me.

This would be absolutely wonderful! Think, 'I am Spartacus, I am Spartacus, 'no, I AM Spartacus.'

If several of 'our' attendees did this; oh, the angst; the badfeelings, bad think, bad, bad.
Please, do this....

Blogger Josh August 11, 2015 7:15 PM  

This would be absolutely wonderful! Think, 'I am Spartacus, I am Spartacus, 'no, I AM Spartacus.'

I am Vox Day and so can you

Anonymous Steve August 11, 2015 7:19 PM  

Viidad - I thank you, noble sir. But in this case the true cruelty was not wrought by my hand, but by a troupe of artisan chefs with their secret blend of 11 irresistable herbs and spices.

A bucket of chicken for the lady.

Blogger VFM bot #188 August 11, 2015 7:21 PM  

Okay everyone, calm down. There's an important question that needs to be asked:

When should we offer an apology to SJW's?

Blogger Chiva August 11, 2015 7:29 PM  

Reading the officious language used in the Sasquan posting reminded me of the Screwtape letters by CS Lewis.

Blogger Markku August 11, 2015 7:33 PM  

Okay everyone, calm down. There's an important question that needs to be asked:

When should we offer an apology to SJW's?


What is the temperature in regions Infernal?

Blogger Joshua Dyal August 11, 2015 7:36 PM  

Gerrold a class act? Well there was your tell. Your a shameless liar.

Blogger Harsh August 11, 2015 7:54 PM  

Gerrold's a class act

Gerrold is a class act in the way he's a staunch heterosexual.

Anonymous Scanretelli August 11, 2015 7:54 PM  

And......there it is. The puppy persecution complex in all is glory. Puppies always piddle.

Blogger Harsh August 11, 2015 7:57 PM  

The puppy persecution complex in all is glory. Puppies always piddle.

You're obviously reading events differently that I do. And by that I mean the way sane people do.

Blogger Sean Carnegie August 11, 2015 8:17 PM  

@Vox
That would be epic. Done.

Who's selling minion shirts and where can we buy them?

Blogger Cail Corishev August 11, 2015 8:29 PM  

Coming soon: demanding the Code of Conduct be upheld to the letter is harassment.

That's exactly what happened with OSCON this year. Some people tweeted asking if they knew one of their speakers was an infamous online harasser who violated their Code many times over, and the chair responded by saying they were DDOSing OSCON and used the speaker's autoblocker to block them and 10,000 or so others who had no idea what was going on.

I can't claim it was black-knighting, because none of us guessed he'd go full retard and offend thousands of potential customers instead of just cancelling the talk and offending one crazy person. We just got lucky.

In any case, the way their Code was cited against the very people who were appealing to it convinced some people who were formerly pro-Code that there's no such thing as a fair "Code of Conduct," because they exist to be applied in only one direction.

Blogger Nate August 11, 2015 8:30 PM  

"One of the things that has been so atrocious about Puppygate is the way the Puppies seem not to give a damn about the collateral damage of their actions."

I mean...

Its written right there on the logo. its our freaking motto.

Blogger Peter Pan August 11, 2015 8:33 PM  

I was waiting for another post on the little, but growing, Lou Antonelli matter. It was hard to watch him apologize pathetically and then go even further by deciding not to write for six months in order to think over his actions. Apologize and the rabbits pounce---it's not often rabbits find someone weaker than they are.

They're just noticing this now? What part of "we don't care" was hard to understand?

Probably the part about not caring. They care about everything, which is why they either fall over a cliff in love with diversity and rampage about normal men and women trying to live their lives like their Christian ancestors did. If you're a rabbit, you're either scared into oblivion and must flee or attack, or amorally humping everything in sight.

@26 Josh I am Vox Day and so can you

It would add to the legend. Spacebunny is not real, and Vox is really a whole bunch of different people. They always knew it couldn't just be the one guy... he's too... productive.

@27 Steve: A bucket of chicken for the lady.

I'm afraid a bucket will not be enough for her.

Blogger automatthew August 11, 2015 8:35 PM  

Vile Faceless Doubles

Anonymous zen0 August 11, 2015 8:39 PM  

Steve needs to be stopped before someone goes blind.

Blogger James Dixon August 11, 2015 8:45 PM  

This is Sasquan, not Worldcon. They're not exactly the same thing. Sasquan is simply hosting Worldcon this year.

> When should we offer an apology to SJW's?

The same time I'll buy anything from Vietnam. When they're all dead and buried.

Anonymous King Leonidas August 11, 2015 8:57 PM  

Ilk, Minions, what is your profession?

Blogger ajw308 (#98) August 11, 2015 8:58 PM  

I'm afraid a bucket will not be enough for her.
Bring her a bucket!

Blogger Peter Pan August 11, 2015 9:05 PM  

@43 ajw308: Bring her a bucket!

We just don't have one big enough.

Anonymous Viidad August 11, 2015 9:07 PM  

"Steve needs to be stopped before someone goes blind."

It was as if thousands of cone cells cried out and then suddenly were silenced.

Blogger Josh August 11, 2015 9:10 PM  

It was as if thousands of cone cells cried out and then suddenly were silenced.

That's no moon....

Anonymous WillBest August 11, 2015 9:26 PM  

In the US the supreme court has ruled that a single incident of offensive speech is not harassment. Then again I don't think that mangina Roberts has had a chance to rule on it yet.

Personally, it doesn't make a lot of sense for a convention to address this in a CoC. Filing a fraudulent police report is a criminal offense. Either Lou violated the law or he filed in good faith. If he filed in good faith it clearly isn't a violation of CoC. Further, we KNOW that the police pursue ALL fraudulently filed police reports from rape/sexual assault statistics. So, unless he is being investigated by the police, there is no grounds on which to punish him pursuant to the code of conduct.

Blogger SirHamster (#201) August 11, 2015 9:26 PM  

They're just noticing this now? What part of "we don't care" was hard to understand?

Asking fans of a predominantly textual medium to actually read is problematic.

Blogger Stilicho #0066 August 11, 2015 9:33 PM  

I mean...

Its written right there on the logo. its our freaking motto.


reading comprehension has always been optional on the left

Blogger Stilicho #0066 August 11, 2015 9:35 PM  

In the US the supreme court has ruled that a single incident of offensive speech is not harassment. Then again I don't think that mangina Roberts has had a chance to rule on it yet.

Chief Justice Admiral Ahkbar: "It's a TAX!!!!!"

Blogger Joe A. August 11, 2015 9:45 PM  

Collateral damage? How so?

Blogger Peter Pan August 11, 2015 10:00 PM  

@49 Stilicho: reading comprehension has always been optional on the left

That's because reading reeks of privilege. So check it.

Blogger Mom August 11, 2015 10:01 PM  

It gets more and more mind-boggling every day.

Blogger Groot August 11, 2015 10:15 PM  

@40. zen0:
"Steve needs to be stopped before someone goes blind."

While Steve's comments are often hilarious, I have learned not to follow any graphic linkage. Come on, zen0, even a tazered gerbil learns.

@38. Peter Pan:
"Lou Antonelli ... It was hard to watch him apologize pathetically and then go even further by deciding not to write for six months in order to think over his actions. Apologize and the rabbits pounce---it's not often rabbits find someone weaker than they are."

After he pisses his pants in public, he just stands there, with the stain spreading. It's painful to watch.

Blogger David-093 August 11, 2015 10:24 PM  

"Ilk, Minions, what is your profession?"

We're agents of chaos.

Blogger Joshua Dyal August 11, 2015 10:32 PM  

Am I missing something on this Antonelli fella? I assumed from the earlier post that he was pulling a clever gamergate style black knighting, but now it seems like he's just a jumpy little head case after all.

I admit to never having heard of him before this, though.

Anonymous RS August 11, 2015 10:34 PM  

Remind me why anyone would want to attend? Look at the profile pictures in the link - I've never seen such a group of people argue so effectively for eugenics simply by existing. I think you'd find a more handsome group of people at your local Greyhound station.

Seriously, why do all SJW females (?) have the Innsmouth look about them? And are there any males with enough muscle mass to load their own luggage into an overhead compartment?

Anonymous Not-So-Merry zen0 August 11, 2015 10:35 PM  

.@54 Groot

> Come on, zen0, even a tazered gerbil learns.

Its a cry for help. Ask Nate. he knows all about the internal motivations of deviants.

Blogger Peter Pan August 11, 2015 11:03 PM  

@56 Joshua Dyal: Am I missing something on this Antonelli fella?

He writes decent stories. Turns out he got caught between Rabid Puppies and a warren of rabbits. While the Puppies are fierce and terrible to behold, the rabbits are cannibals.

Choose one side and you get welcomed, with the gruff expectation that you are to pull your own weight. Choose the other side, and you are eaten.

One does not convert to the rabbits---you are either born that way, or you are made that way. In contrast, to become one of the canine pack, all one has to do is catch a little hydrophobia and show ones teeth. There is prey everywhere.

Dogs hunt. Rabbits eat their young.

Blogger Chiva August 11, 2015 11:17 PM  

Reading the officious language used in the Sasquan posting reminded me of the Screwtape letters by CS Lewis.

Anonymous Donn #0114 August 11, 2015 11:23 PM  

Seriously, nobody has looked into who sent out the press release. And it was a release even if it wasn't credited. They had all the same talking points, in the same order, and then realized they had been used as tools for slander.

So, whomever sent out the release was trusted enough to run with it without interviewing anyone from the puppies' side. That narrows down the options some. I for instance couldn't do the same. It has to be somebody with at least enough pull that major news outlets simply ran with it as given.

I think it would be interesting to find out who fed them the same line if just for historical purposes and make no mistake, this truly is historical. People will be writing about what really happened years from now.

Blogger Derrick Bonsell August 11, 2015 11:40 PM  

My understanding is that politically Antonelli is more likely to be on our side but his tactics were atrocious and his goal is enigmatic.

Blogger Groot August 12, 2015 12:13 AM  

@62. Derrick Bonsell:

From his blog, quoting somebody approvingly about himself:
"I find Antonelli a bit more reasonable than the rest of the puppies. He has stated that the slate was a big mistake, has said that he doesn’t like the use of the word SJW and has said that it shouldn’t be a SP4 next year."

Now they've got his testicles. Good work on that compromising, Lou.

Blogger Sad Puppy August 12, 2015 12:15 AM  

@18

How can you get that big?

Blogger Sad Puppy August 12, 2015 12:16 AM  

@63

Let him be an example to all Sad and Rabid Puppies when you make that one mistake, apologizing to these SJWs.

Anonymous Viidad August 12, 2015 12:38 AM  

"How can you get that big?"

In a world without mirrors, the one-ton woman is king.

Anonymous Jack Amok August 12, 2015 1:04 AM  

One of the things that has been so atrocious about Puppygate is the way the Puppies seem not to give a damn about the collateral damage of their actions.

Rule #1: Don't throw shit at an armed man.

Rule #2: Don't stand next to someone throwing shit at an armed man.

Or, in the case of the SyFy crowd, don't let the shit-throwing SJWs stand next to the conventions/awards/organizations you like.

Blogger Doc Rampage August 12, 2015 1:38 AM  

Vox, I don't understand why you don't use the courts against the SJWs. I'll bet if you sued one of the journals that slandered you, you could use discovery to find out who the source was, and then sue that person also.

OpenID xsyq August 12, 2015 1:55 AM  

@68 Because it wouldn't be worth it. You might get one SJW to shut up after a long and costly court battle but dozens more would still be slandering away, and you'd lose a lot more proportionally than the SJW you'd be suing. Better to let them expose themselves as the idiots they are while you go about your own business.

Blogger Doc Rampage August 12, 2015 2:58 AM  

@69 If you won the suite, how would you lose more proportionally?

And what about using SJW tactics against them? SJWs have used the courts extensively to punish people who won't go along with them. Use their tactics against them to make them less enthusiastic about the tactic.

Blogger VD August 12, 2015 4:38 AM  

Vox, I don't understand why you don't use the courts against the SJWs.

Because it is expensive and the outcomes are unpredictable.

SJWs have used the courts extensively to punish people who won't go along with them. Use their tactics against them to make them less enthusiastic about the tactic.

SJWs get other people to pay for it. That's the advantage of all those legal organizations they are always forming. I have an excellent libel case in the UK right now according to the barristers with whom I have consulted. And it would probably cost around 20k to lodge it, with the risk of having to pay 80 to 120k if it wasn't successful.

It's simply not worth it.

Blogger Joshua Dyal August 12, 2015 8:08 AM  

Gerrold's a class act. Lou, off kilter and erratic.

You all attract a certain personality type and repulse another, that's for sure.


Thank goodness. Gerrold is a disgusting, dishonest and deceitful snake who acts with all of the "class" of a Mean Girls Queen B.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 12, 2015 8:37 AM  

He has stated that the slate was a big mistake, has said that he doesn’t like the use of the word SJW and has said that it shouldn’t be a SP4 next year.

So how does that guy who said that stuff do something as bold as making claims to the police? Something doesn't add up. Was he drunk when he sent the letter?

I understand why guys apologize when they get attacked for something like an offhand joke. It's a mistake, but I understand the impulse to think maybe a quick apology will make it go away, because that's how normal people function.

But writing to the police isn't an offhand joke; it's premeditated. How do you do it without preparing yourself for the counter-attack? And once you've done it, how do you not realize you have to be all-in, because apologizing is basically a confession? Makes no sense.

Blogger VFM bot #188 August 12, 2015 8:37 AM  

Seriously, nobody has looked into who sent out the press release. And it was a release even if it wasn't credited.

That brings to mind...why not a Rabid Puppies press release in response? It could have all the correct formatting and (non)contact information, etc. Picture it:

Rabid Puppies do not apologize. Especially to SJW vermin. They express extreme displeasure at SJW rabbits for eating their own, especially their young. Rabid Puppies deplore the SJW vermin. And do not apologize.

Of course no one but the Evil Dark Overlord of Dark Evil Overlordness could do it. Unless he deputized someone. Someone vile...someone faceless. Like Nate. Or Markku. Or someone equally vile...

Blogger Badmojo August 12, 2015 9:57 AM  

Lou Antonelli's "apology" rings empty based on his behavior earlier this week:

http://carriecuinn.com/2015/08/10/a-statement-about-lou-antonelli-lakeside-circus-harassment-and-safety/

Blogger Sad Puppy August 12, 2015 9:57 AM  

@71
Vox, I don't understand why you don't use the courts against the SJWs.

Because it is expensive and the outcomes are unpredictable
-------

There is really a philosophy to this. I worked in Insurance (IT) for 5 years. And there were plenty of meetings where subrogation lawyers would discuss settling out of court, because you never know what a jury will do. Even a case that looks like a sure win can become a miserable loss depending on the jury.

Anonymous Duke of URL VFM#391 August 12, 2015 1:11 PM  

UPDATE: This comment at File 770 will likely amuse the VFM:
One of the things that has been so atrocious about Puppygate is the way the Puppies seem not to give a damn about the collateral damage of their actions.
==
They're just noticing this now? What part of "we don't care" was hard to understand?
==========
Just when I start to think that the SJWs have reached the nadir of stupidity, something like this comes along.

Anonymous Duke of URL VFM#391 August 12, 2015 1:15 PM  

@20 VD
Can we get masks like the Anonymous critters use? I have this vision of dozens of "you" wandering around the convention...

Anonymous Cuca Culpa August 12, 2015 2:46 PM  

@36 I simply refuse to attend any convention with a CoC.

Maybe the ilk can start a formal anti-code con, complete with anti-entryist rules. Somehow I get the feeling it would do very well.

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