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Saturday, September 19, 2015

Failing ever higher

It's rather amusing how the conservative media keeps explaining how Donald Trump lost the debate, or at least didn't win it, or has hit his ceiling again, while Trump's poll numbers continue to climb higher.
A Morning Consult poll, released Friday, surveyed 504 registered voters who watched Wednesday’s Republican primary debate and has only good news for Republican frontrunner Donald Trump and Carly Fiorina. While the poll’s sample size is small (with a 4.4% margin of error), the poll’s trend is worth noting.

In this same poll, prior to Wednesday night’s debate, Trump sat at 33% support. Dr. Ben Carson sat in second place with 17% support. Today Trump enjoys 36% support. Carson is still in second place but with just 12% support.

Trump’s lead increased from +16 points to  +24%. That’s an +8% jump.

With their shared status as outsiders, it appears as though Carson’s support went to Fiorina. Prior to the debate the former-Hewlett Packard CEO had just 3% support. She now sits in third place with 10%, only -2 points behind second place Carson.

Overall, the Republican Establishment is the Big Loser here. Non-politicians Trump, Carson and Fiorina command 58% of the vote, and that piece of the pie is only growing larger.
Republicans hate the Republican Establishment almost as much as they hate Democrats these days. After multiple repetitions of "This is the Mostest Importantets Election EVER, so you must vote for the corrupt moderate the bankers have chosen to fund" got them precisely nowhere, an increasing number of Republicans realize that literally anything is better than the conservative media-approved candidates.

Both Fiorina and Carson are no-hope non-candidates. The fact that both of them have more appeal than the Walker, Rubio, Cruz, Christie, Bush III et al suffices to demonstrate how little faith the grassroots has in the Establishment.

It's pretty simple. Both American and European politics are about IMMIGRATION, IMMIGRATION, and IMMIGRATION. If you don't support immediately repatriating ALL illegal immigrants as a STARTING POINT, you're just not an electable candidate anymore.

Labels:

155 Comments:

Anonymous Wyrd September 19, 2015 6:38 AM  

Trump made fun of Fiorina's (A WOMAN!) looks! Teh Horror! Teh Horror! *Let's ignore Fiorina driving HP straight into the ground*

Blogger Salt September 19, 2015 6:46 AM  

They wanted Trump to apologize to Carly. He didn't. In ways, he doubled down; "you're beautiful." He never said she was smart or even competent. I've think that if Trump were to say what she might be actually good at, he'd say she could replace Vanna White.

Anonymous Sensei September 19, 2015 6:48 AM  

Republicans hate the Republican Establishment almost as much as they hate Democrats these days.

More, I think. One despises the gate-raising traitor more than the enemy who takes advantage of the chance to pour in through the breach.

Anonymous Whitey McWhite September 19, 2015 6:50 AM  

Hot Air is running every un-flattering picture they can find of Trump, which is what they do when they want to show someone is an enemy, not one of "us". One of the regular columnists has already written a piece on his embarrassment at having written over and over: this is it; Trump is finished!! -- only to find the polls mocking him the next day. The barrage continues, however, regardless of how awkward it is for the pundits to be found out lying for effect over and over.

It's not helping. These and other paid pundits at other "conservative" blogs are earning their salaries by remaining acceptable to those who pay them, but that is all they are doing.

Blogger Rantor September 19, 2015 6:54 AM  

This is an exciting election cycle. Trump is showing the impotent Republicans how the game is played while idiots like the Senator from South Carolina whine that legislating is hard. Yesterday Trump issued his pro-guns for self defense statement, I haven't read it in its entirety but the excerpts are spot on. If he can roll out a solid, conservative policy paper every two or three weeks, he can maintain momentum. At this point, that may be all he has to do. I would like to see him get smarter on defense and foreign policy issues in the coming months, but I realize those are not critical issues for the vast majority of Americans.

The economy and jobs remain big issues. With real unemployment over 20% they would have to be. As long as the people think the rich, smart guy is on their side, and not in Goldman's Sack, he has a big chance.

Blogger Rantor September 19, 2015 6:56 AM  

3. agree Sensei. The Chief Justice is the #1 enemy of the state, for Obamacare alone. Greatest traitor of the 21st Century.

Anonymous PhillipGeorge©2015 September 19, 2015 7:01 AM  

But is he another smoke and mirrors pony show - some unseen hand's hand puppet - another conservative in name only?
Vladimir Putin, international man of the conservative year again, can align himself with the Eastern Orthodox/ Russian Orthodox Church.
America doesn't have one. Blinded by science and the separation of church and state meme they're foot faulted, hamstrung, head shaved, and still at the starter's gate while waiting for intructions to run,
Pink Floyd, they "missed the starter's gun".
IMHO. Religion is everything. Economic and migration, such a distant second, it's like the paint job on the cruise missile. cheers.

Blogger Josh September 19, 2015 7:03 AM  

If you don't support immediately repatriating ALL illegal immigrants as a STARTING POINT, you're just not an electable candidate anymore.

Serious question: how do you square that with this?

For years, conservatives afraid of being called racist have stupidly attempted to finesse the immigration issue, claiming that "it's not the immigration, it's the illegality" while loudly declaring their support for LEGAL immigration to balance their opposition to ILLEGAL immigration. But the distinction was always meaningless; the behavior of the individual immigrant and the cumulative effects of mass immigration have historically had nothing to do with the legality or illegality of the act of immigration.


In other words, how do you know when a candidate is using ending illegal immigration as a starting point for talking about ending all immigration and when they're just using illegal immigration as a way to avoid talking about all immigration?

Blogger Mr.MantraMan September 19, 2015 7:04 AM  

The establishment needs to double down, really, the fusion between moderate banker establishment non-extremist candidates with SJW approved candidates is what America really needs.

Anonymous Whitey McWhite September 19, 2015 7:05 AM  

5. Rantor: "The Chief Justice is the #1 enemy of the state, for Obamacare alone."

Ahead of Ronald Reagan appointee Anthony Kennedy?

Blogger Laramie Hirsch September 19, 2015 7:06 AM  

Republicans hate the Republican Establishment almost as much as they hate Democrats these days.

I would argue we hate the Repub. Est. MORE than the Democrats.

Betrayal is a nasty thing. We were supposed to be able to count on these people. They have stabbed us in the back. Every time.

Bring on the independent-thinking celebrities! I want to see the collapse of the Establishment.

Blogger VD September 19, 2015 7:07 AM  


In other words, how do you know when a candidate is using ending illegal immigration as a starting point for talking about ending all immigration and when they're just using illegal immigration as a way to avoid talking about all immigration?


If they are pledging to deport all of the illegals. The latter are very unwilling to mention the r-word, let alone the d-word. Once the repatriation mechanisms are in place, it will be very easy to send back the legal immigrants.

Blogger Salt September 19, 2015 7:15 AM  

Vox, that's not what I see Josh as asking. Trump has not spoken concerning the affects of immigration itself on society. His stance is on illegal, while seemingly looking to want the legal, vetted as to ability to bring something of value. The high quality immigrant.

OpenID simplytimothy September 19, 2015 7:16 AM  

After multiple repetitions of "This is the Mostest Importantets Election EVER, so you must vote for the corrupt moderate the bankers have chosen to fund" got them precisely nowhere

The back-story on how those "moderates" end up as the nominees is worth following for its predictive value and explanatory power of why we keeep ending up with mushes. Sundance at the conservativetreehouse.com has formulated a GOPe
Splitter Strategy. Basically, per region, a "splitter candidate" (huckabee, santorum, bachman, kasich, pataki, graham, fiorina, rubio) is used to split the conservative vote in specific states leaving the mush (romney, jeb!) close enough and with enough money that they win the primary.

The result, when it works, is the madness we have had since bush I the lesser evil. Trump's commanding lead (He will be at 101% by election day, guaranteed)

Throw in Scott Adam's (of Dilbert) at blog.dilbert.com and the tactical/strategic us of rhetoric (he calls it The Master Wizard Hypothesis) you then have two interesting frameworks from which to look at this race.

Then throw in "how many f--cking jews are there?" and "the great wall of Trump" and its fun to be on offense instead of gritting my teeth at the lies we have endured for so long. Heck, even John Derbyshire is happy.




Blogger Mr.MantraMan September 19, 2015 7:17 AM  

Once we disable the rhetoric from the left, the talking points of "racist, sexist, homophobic" we will be able to deport anyone at any time and laugh while doing it.

And since these invaders are imbecilic tit babies of the left they have a nasty entitlement attitude which will make it sweet to everyone else that they are being deported. My guess is that even native black Americans will be first in line to shiv the invaders, it will be that much fun.

OpenID basementhomebrewer September 19, 2015 7:17 AM  

At least whoever wins will have a FAB-U-LOUS! army at their disposal.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-to-nominate-first-openly-gay-service-secretary-to-lead-the-army/2015/09/18/d4b1aafe-5e30-11e5-8e9e-dce8a2a2a679_story.html

Anonymous Whitey McWhite September 19, 2015 7:18 AM  

8. Mr.MantraMan: "The establishment needs to double down, really, the fusion between moderate banker establishment non-extremist candidates with SJW approved candidates is what America really needs."

They're doing the best that they can.

Blogger Rantor September 19, 2015 7:19 AM  

Let no one say that I think Trump a true conservative. His history is shaky and respect for religion seems quite shallow. The question is whether he can be trusted to run with the policies he espouses? We won't know unless he is elected. The refreshing thing is he is not playing by their rules, he has his own playbook and no one knows what is in it. Too early to say whether I'd vote in the election at all next year, but it will be fun to watch.

Blogger Rantor September 19, 2015 7:26 AM  

9. Yes. Never hire or appoint anyone named Kennedy to anything. Yes he is a let down, but couldn't you see that coming?

I could go on a rant about how there are no WASPs on the court, but that could set us off on the wrong tangent.

OpenID simplytimothy September 19, 2015 7:29 AM  

Trump made fun of Fiorina's (A WOMAN!) looks! Teh Horror! Teh Horror! *Let's ignore Fiorina driving HP straight into the ground*

That is a dialectic approach that cannot work in a rhetorical battle. The battle is not over facts, but over "images, words, and emotions".

Here is Scott Adams Master Wizard Hypothesis (i.e. rhetorical mastery) in action regarding how Fiorina is now "tagged" via Trump's rhetoric.

Rhetoric is a tool; nothing more. We now have a real-life lesson on how to wield it in a very public, high-profile political race.

The reason HP dialectic will not work is that the "unthinking" have no visceral response to the term "HP" . Immigration is personal in that the sense of decay of our beloved land is palpable. People got it in the gut and is fertile ground for Trump to paint word pictures that make Trump the solution to the problem. "the face" es of feminist woman are not attractive. When Trump tags Fiorina with "that face" etc, He is affirming what the people already know in their guts.


Vox has explained rhetoric quite a bit here. Trump is demonstrating it in real time. Its fun to watch.


Anonymous Mike M. September 19, 2015 7:33 AM  

Vox, I have to disagree with you, at least in part.

Trump is ahead in part because he's sucked all the media oxygen out of the room. He's helped by the fact tat the moderate vote is divided between Bush, Christie, and Kasich; the conservative vote even more so.

My worry is that the Propaganda Press is picking the GOP candidate they can trash easiest so they can shove Biden into office.

I like Trump on immigration, though he hasn't seemed to have realized that a fence means nothing without guards ready to kill anyone scaling it. But he's obsessed with "deal-making". The President is Commander-in-Chief, and some of the people he gets to handle don't make deals.

Blogger James Dixon September 19, 2015 7:39 AM  

> Republicans hate the Republican Establishment almost as much as they hate Democrats these days.

After the past 6 years, I'd say they hate them even more. You tend to hate traitors even more than enemies.

> Both American and European politics are about IMMIGRATION, IMMIGRATION, and IMMIGRATION.

That's the main issue Trump is differentiating himself with, yes. But the economy, Obamacare, and government overreach by the various agencies (especially the EPA) are still big issues too.

> he'd say she could replace Vanna White.

He knows better than that, Salt. She's nowhere near as good looking on camera as Vanna.

> I would like to see him get smarter on defense and foreign policy issues in the coming months ...

Trump knows how to delegate. He'll pick people he trusts to research the issue for him and give him the base of knowledge he needs. Look what he did on immigration by reaching out to Jeff Sessions.

A President doesn't do the job by himself. He picks the right people to do the job for him. Say what you will about Trump, he has experience doing that, and has proven himself competent at it.

Anonymous Mike M. September 19, 2015 7:44 AM  

Actually, I think Fiorina got as much of an apology as you'll ever see out of Trump.

What I'm seeing from the whole field would make an outstanding Cabinet. But I don't see a Reagan among them. Nobody of truly Presidental timber.

Blogger James Dixon September 19, 2015 7:44 AM  

> I like Trump on immigration, though he hasn't seemed to have realized that a fence means nothing without guards ready to kill anyone scaling it.

I've said it before. Remote controlled cameras and guns accessible via the Net. Let people undergo a background check, then when they pass they're can access a post. Give bounties for every illegal killed or disabled. It would be the killer game of the decade.

Blogger Salt September 19, 2015 7:47 AM  

Say what you will about Trump, he has experience doing that, and has proven himself competent at it.

Yes. The issue with Trump is that he views everything through the lens of business. You find the best, you hire the best. Trump doesn't care where they come from. He's willing to import the best of immigrants. I don't think he even contemplates the cumulative effect on the social fabric. It's strictly the bottom line, which is fine from a business point of view. The US is not a business.

Blogger James Dixon September 19, 2015 7:48 AM  

> But I don't see a Reagan among them. Nobody of truly Presidental timber.

You're being blinded recent history. The people who lived through the latter half of the 21st century had the chance to see two of the greatest politicians in American history, Reagan and Clinton. They not the average. Trump isn't in their class, but he's easily in the class with our average Presidents.

Blogger Salt September 19, 2015 7:52 AM  

Look at what Trump has said concerning Putin and other world leaders; "I'll get along with them." He's also brought up, more than once, his "Art Of The Deal". He'd probably be great where it comes to negotiating trade, etc. When it comes to legal immigration, Trump will solve nothing.

Anonymous shadow #0342 September 19, 2015 7:53 AM  

"Both Fiorina and Carson are no-hope non-candidates. The fact that both of them have more appeal than the Walker, Rubio, Cruz, Christie, Bush III et al suffices to demonstrate how little faith the grassroots has in the Establishment."

If you take a look at Fiorina's positions during her US CA Senate Run and her political support record, she is exposed as a establishment hack posing as an outsider.

A short list from Freedom Outpost:

1) Thinks the Ottoman Empire was the greatest civilization on the Earth (gave a speech saying so 2 weeks after 9/11)
2) As CEO of HP, did illegal business in Iran
3) Thinks Christians in government need to shut up and obey the State rather than God if the two conflict
4) Would have voted for Sotomayor to the SCOTUS
5) Thinks Roe v. Wade is established law; went to supporters and told them John McCain was okay with keeping Roe v. Wade

What disgusts me is that she has consistently supported abortion over the years, but 30 seconds in a debate somehow makes up for that.

Blogger Josh September 19, 2015 7:54 AM  

Vox, that's not what I see Josh as asking. Trump has not spoken concerning the affects of immigration itself on society. His stance is on illegal, while seemingly looking to want the legal, vetted as to ability to bring something of value. The high quality immigrant.

Correct. Trump has consistently said that he's going to send illegals home only to bring most of them right back.

Blogger Josh September 19, 2015 7:56 AM  

If you take a look at Fiorina's positions during her US CA Senate Run and her political support record, she is exposed as a establishment hack posing as an outsider.

Nate Silver described her this week as a stealth establishment. If she had moved to Nevada and run for the Senate in 2010, she probably gets elected.

Blogger James Dixon September 19, 2015 7:58 AM  

> The issue with Trump is that he views everything through the lens of business.

That can be a problem, yes. But what do we have to lose at this point?

And if there isn't anyone else who can do as well, you go with the best available. At this point, it looks like that's Trump.

Now, I'm not going to vote for him in the primary. But if he takes the primary, I don't think I'd have any problem voting for him over any of the democrats.

Blogger YIH September 19, 2015 8:00 AM  

1 Wyrd:
*Let's ignore Fiorina driving HP straight into the ground*
Actually Trump did bring that up. She came back with his four bankruptcies.
Trouble was, in this debate format everyone is reduced to pithy soundbites. Good for the entertainment industry (Oy vey! Quit calling it an industry goyim! It's ART!), bad for anything substantial.
One thing ¡Jabe! is closing in on Trump over is entertainment value - like standing on his tippy-toes, and being the poster boy for betahood.
No, ¡YEB! we're not laughing with you, we're laughing at you... And your own personal troll.
Oh wait, that's his wife.

Anonymous kfg September 19, 2015 8:02 AM  

The best of immigrants are people like Henry Steinway, Louis Chevrolet, Ignaz Schwinn and Nicola Tesla. In any given year there may be as many as several of them.

Blogger Salt September 19, 2015 8:04 AM  

Ultimately, and unfortunately, it's going to take the ultras. Trump is no ultra, he's no nationalist. I'd describe this way Trump - a man driven to be the number one driving force on the S&P 500.

Anonymous Mike M. September 19, 2015 8:04 AM  

The mistake the other candidates are making is in discussing Trump at all. Even when the Propaganda Press asks.

Stay on offense. Tell people what you'll do to solve the country's problems. Act confident that you will be the President, and you will be.

Blogger Josh September 19, 2015 8:15 AM  

The mistake the other candidates are making is in discussing Trump at all. Even when the Propaganda Press asks.

Stay on offense. Tell people what you'll do to solve the country's problems. Act confident that you will be the President, and you will be.


Yes.

There was a long stretch of the debate where the questions were about policy and not "Trump said this, would you like to tell him why he's wrong". Trump essentially disappeared for most of that part.

Blogger Chris Mallory September 19, 2015 8:17 AM  

The release of Trump's gun paper was a master stroke. He has taken positive positions on the two biggest single issue topics (immigration and guns) for most of the white working class. Trump appears to be positioning himself as the anti Romney, actually trying to win the support of working class whites. The Reagan Democrats stayed home during the last two elections. Trump might bring them back.

It is almost like Trump has been reading Sean Trende and Steve Sailer. An uptick of just a few points in the white voter turn out, while the black turnout drops like a rock with the old black ladies dying off and there not being a brother on the ticket in 2016, and the Repugicans take the election in a landslide.

Trende has a fun map to play with, adjusting turnout numbers at:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/08/26/demographics_and_the_2016_election_scenarios.html

Blogger Cataline Sergius September 19, 2015 8:18 AM  

Mostly and unsurprisingly, this poll shows that debates just don't matter anymore. They are all rhetoric and no substance at all. It's a matter of who gets the best sound bite.

I think Trump now believes he has a chance, which I honestly don't think he did when started. The reason I say that is that he just published a policy paper on guns. Think Progress is upset enough to lie about it, so I suppose that's something.

Basically his position is status ante plus.

This does constitute a reversal (or possibly an evolving, I don't know how these things are determined) from his position in 2000. Which was support the Assault Weapons Ban and longer wait periods.

In short doesn't care much about guns one way or the other, this could be trouble the next time there is a mass shooting.

Blogger Joe A. September 19, 2015 8:21 AM  

I prefer Rand Paul out of the visible candidates despite the futility of it.

Blogger Josh September 19, 2015 8:22 AM  

I prefer Rand Paul out of the visible candidates despite the futility of it.

Stand with Rand!

Blogger Salt September 19, 2015 8:24 AM  

Which candidate has the highest propensity for being a nationalist?

Blogger Booch Paradise September 19, 2015 8:27 AM  

My worry is that the Propaganda Press is picking the GOP candidate they can trash easiest so they can shove Biden into office.

If they are then they've made a major miscalculation. The GOP candidate who most adheres to the principles of applied charisma out of anyone the field has seen since Reagan will not be easy to dismiss.

They lose when attempting direct conflict with him, and the fact that his appearance is setting ratings records for every show he's on means that they can't just ignore him. So what tool is it that you expect they will use to trash him when they are done with him?

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer September 19, 2015 8:30 AM  

The latest "outrage" is that Trump didn't "correct" some guy at a rally when he said that Obama was a Muslim.

All the other Republican candidates, when asked about this, denounced Trump for not jumping to Obama's defense and averred that of course Obama was a Christian.

No wonder Trump is kicking their asses.

They make themselves look like school yard prigs scolding some other kid over his failure to follow teacher's rules. And Obama's bitches.

Anonymous Godfrey September 19, 2015 8:31 AM  

I feel sorry for Rand Paul. He's running the last election (fighting the last war). The electorate has moved on. The electorate is much more radical than they were eight years ago and even compared to just three years ago.

The Fed (i.e. the bankers) has been grinding people into poverty for seven years now. The electorate has watched their future evaporate. They nothing to lose now. They're angry and getting more so every day. And there is nothing more dangerous than a desperate man with nothing to lose.

The dynamic has changed. The moderate ass kissing establishment status quo candidates aren't going anywhere. The status quo sucks. The status quo is miserable. The status quo is impoverishing millions.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer September 19, 2015 8:32 AM  

The latest "outrage" is that Trump didn't "correct" some guy at a rally when he said that Obama was a Muslim.

All the other Republican candidates, when asked about this, denounced Trump for not jumping to Obama's defense and averred that of course Obama was a Christian.

No wonder Trump is kicking their asses.

They make themselves look like school yard prigs scolding some other kid over his failure to follow teacher's rules. And Obama's bitches.

Blogger VFM bot #188 September 19, 2015 8:34 AM  

Trump has consistently said that he's going to send illegals home only to bring most of them right back.

That's just good rhetoric. It lets him take a closed-borders stance while blocking the charge of being anti-immigration. But will he want to admit masses of impoverished, illiterate, third world peasants after going to the trouble of building a fence and removing them? No.

Anonymous Viidad September 19, 2015 8:36 AM  

Joe A. "I prefer Rand Paul out of the visible candidates despite the futility of it."

Out of the invisible candidates, though... this year I'm really torn between George Soros, The Rotshchild Continuum and the Black Pope...

Anonymous ZhukovG September 19, 2015 8:39 AM  

Once Trump qualifies for Secret Service protection, I think he should decline use his own security people.

Anonymous Sensei September 19, 2015 8:46 AM  

That's just good rhetoric. It lets him take a closed-borders stance while blocking the charge of being anti-immigration. But will he want to admit masses of impoverished, illiterate, third world peasants after going to the trouble of building a fence and removing them? No.

I agree, I'm confused by how many people seem to think their job is not to start moving things step by step in the right direction, but to act as ideological gatekeepers who dismiss progress as compromise. No wonder the Left has had its way for so long..

Blogger James Dixon September 19, 2015 8:48 AM  

> Stay on offense. Tell people what you'll do to solve the country's problems.

Exactly. But strangely enough, no one but Trump is doing that.

> ... prefer Rand Paul out of the visible candidates despite the futility of it.

Yep.

> The latest "outrage" is that Trump didn't "correct" some guy at a rally when he said that Obama was a Muslim.

Another point for Trump. :) Why would he want to correct him? He knows most Americans feel the same way.

> I think he should decline use his own security people.

Agreed.

Anonymous Minion #414 September 19, 2015 8:48 AM  

I hate the GOP worse then the dems. The dems you know are going to be crooked as the day is long, the GOP pretends to be your friend while slipping the knife in your back.

Burn it down Donald, burn it all down.

Blogger Civis Silas September 19, 2015 8:55 AM  

@14
My guess is that even native black Americans will be first in line to shiv the invaders, it will be that much fun.

I agree completely. Cheap labor hurts the working class and less educated the most, the trades second. Both of those form the economic backbone of the black community. Between that and displacement from historically black communities by Hispanics, Trump will probably get more support from the blacks than any GOP candidate has gotten in generations.

Race relations are a lot more chaotic than progs would like to think. It's not just Kill Whitey. At least, not anymore.

Blogger CM September 19, 2015 8:58 AM  

OT:

I really hate this blog. Already in the last week, I'e engaged in 3 debates that I never would have commented on thanks to you people:

1) Peanut-free schools
2) Vaccinations, Alternative schedules, and stupid GOP doctors
3) Feminism belonging in Science Fiction

I don't know if my newly discovered brazenness is good or bad.

Blogger Rantor September 19, 2015 9:00 AM  

Viodad, so I guess joe Biden serves the Black Pope, Hillary works for Soros, but who is the Rothchilds candidate? Bush? Cruz?

Anonymous Minion #414 September 19, 2015 9:02 AM  

"Rhetoric is a tool; nothing more. We now have a real-life lesson on how to wield it in a very public, high-profile political race."

I have been watching this race close and reading the Dilbert blog, very illuminating.

"Let's ignore Fiorina driving HP straight into the ground"

This is my mental block- I look at a candidates past history and cross them off my mental list without a second thought. What the rhetorical reality is very different!

HP is the least of Carly's problems, look up the history of Lucent Technologies. She had a hand in them losing billions not to mention shoddy accounting tactics to pump up stock prices and thousands of people being laid off and plants being shuttered.

Anonymous Grinder September 19, 2015 9:09 AM  

@28 Trump said he'd make America great again. If he only ends up handling immigration in the manner you say then America will only get worse, not closer to being great again.
I think that handling the illegals is a good first step and if America is one step closer to greatness without what illegals bring :robbery, murder, rape, diseases then maybe Trump will be motivated to expand it further. Trump is too rich to be bribed but I suspect he would like to go down as a great president.

Anonymous ZhukovG September 19, 2015 9:16 AM  

@50. Civis Silas

African Americans have previously been stuck on the DNC Plantation. Trump is giving them a choice.

In fact, for people of many political persuasions he seems to be shining a bright light on the way the establishment has betrayed the American people in general.

And even if Trump is just another establishment Quisling, he may have opened a Pandora's box that the establishment will find difficult to close.

Blogger Cail Corishev September 19, 2015 9:18 AM  

Tell people what you'll do to solve the country's problems.

That would require that they have ideas, which they mostly don't, except for some mantras about cutting taxes, boosting the economy, and maintaining military strength -- dishes that have been reheated so many times since Reagan first served them up fifty years ago that they've turned into dry, flavorless mush.

We could quibble over whether they actually lack imagination that badly, or are too fearful of the media to say anything out of turn, but it really doesn't matter. The point is that none of them has any solutions to offer except perhaps on one or two niche matters that are meaningless if the flow of immigrants continues.

Thing is, they didn't expect to need ideas. They thought they'd trot out Bush III, let the woman and the black fight over the VP spot to provide minority cred, count on people to feel better about Bushes after eight years of Obama, promise to lower taxes and reform (spend more money on) the worst aspects of Obamacare, and add, "Besides, it's our turn." They'd either squeak out a win or go down to noble defeat, either of which they'd celebrate as long as they Hispandered the all-important Natural Conservative vote up to a second-place 40% or so.

You know, the usual script. Expecting real ideas from them is unfair.

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler September 19, 2015 9:18 AM  

Yes, right after we deport all the illegals, we need to rescind the 1965 Immigration Act. It was done with ill will. They sought to destroy the homogeneity of this country.

Trump is the guy that will at least do the first step.

Another step is the passing of this paper out to Christian ministers and priests: "The Tower of Babel, The Philosophy of Race and The Genocidal Ideology of Social Justice/Political Correctness" in order to stop the madness.

I passed out a link to the paper at a Tea Party meeting in West Michigan. None of them accessed the article. No one at the Catholic parish did either. The Truth is Hard. Just like Jesus turned away His own people in John chapter 6 with His difficult language about the Truth of the Eucharist, this paper will turn many away. Truth is Hard, and many people are too weak to stomach the Truth.

Blogger CM September 19, 2015 9:20 AM  

This is my mental block- I look at a candidates past history and cross them off my mental list without a second thought. What the rhetorical reality is very different!

I don't know if YOU need to ignore facts. Rhetoric isn't your thing, but some people can ONLY communicate with rhetoric.

Isn't that one of the points in SJWAL?

Is there an emotional way to use the facts as a rhetorical tool?

Anonymous PA September 19, 2015 9:22 AM  

"what illegals bring :robbery, murder, rape, diseases"

Ultimately though, the things we want to be rid of isn't just those worst-case-scenario things. We want to rid our homeland of alien faces, period.

Anonymous bw September 19, 2015 9:25 AM  

Moratorium | Define Moratorium at Dictionary.com
noun, plural moratoria [mawr-uh-tawr-ee-uh, -tohr-, mor-] )
1. a suspension of activity

Blogger Cail Corishev September 19, 2015 9:35 AM  

Cheap labor hurts the working class and less educated the most, the trades second. Both of those form the economic backbone of the black community.

That's an interesting claim. It was true fifty years ago, but is it now? Are you sure the "economic backbone" of the black community isn't government? Granted, I'm looking at the black community from the outside, but I see two main groups today. First, the talented fraction who have good jobs in the middle class or better, usually working for government or for corporations that have to watch their racial quotas. Second, the underclass, many of whom are second- or third-generation wards of the state. I know there are hard-working blue-collar blacks out there -- I've met a few -- but it seems naive to call them the backbone of anything.

If one of the final candidates opposes cheap immigrant labor, it may be an interesting litmus test for blacks. Which do they want more: the kind of jobs immigrants now do, or government handouts?

I passed out a link to the paper at a Tea Party meeting in West Michigan.

You must be a real hit at parties. The Tea Partiers I've known were strictly interested in taxes and spending, and had aggressively mainstream opinions on everything else, including the Ellis Island Miracle. Talking to them about the harms of immigration would be like asking if their daughters like bukkake.

Blogger Derrick Bonsell September 19, 2015 9:39 AM  

Some people here are missing the forest for the trees on Trump's immigration stance. He single-handedly went well beyond any other candidate's immigration stance. That in itself isn't that important, what's really important is that people are now increasingly willing to discuss deporting millions of people, some of whom have been here for years by now. The rest of the field at best didn't go beyond ending amnesty until getting a promise of increased security, while at worst saying they'd continue Obama's amnesty but via legislation. ¡Jabe! himself has even been forced to walk back a lot of his rhetoric on abortion. If Trump did little more than that he's already let the genie out of the bottle and the media will have to spend a lot of money stuffing him back in.

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler September 19, 2015 9:41 AM  

On rhetoric. Yes, rhetoric can be based on emotions and it can be based on facts. Rhetoric is only a tool, a tool of convincing.

Socrates and Plato both hated rhetoric because it is not about Truth and more often than not, rhetoric was used in the service of evil. Socrates uses dialectic in one on one approaches to demolish opinion.

But one on one is not commonsensical given the largess of a democracy. For a Christian to use rhetoric, it must be based on truth. Then, one exaggerates one point or another of it to convince people to move to a certain goal.

There is dialectic, publishing, rhetoric, and then Hegelian dialectic, where you cause a "supposed problem", make the people look at it, and then, tell them how to fix it, (but the fix is what you have conjured up for your own, or your movement's goals). Just plain lying, slander, and libel works as well. The first person who speaks, sets the narrative and it is usually progressives, who are evil, that set out the narrative, that then we are forced to follow.

Blogger Michael O'Duibhir September 19, 2015 9:47 AM  

Infatuation with Trump is emblematic of the depths to which our socio/political system has fallen.

Anonymous patrick kelly September 19, 2015 9:49 AM  

@25 James Dixon: " two of the greatest politicians in American history, Reagan and Clinton. "

My favorite presidents in my lifetime, for different reasons. Still hard to forgive BC for bombing Serbia for the EU fucks, but both were manly and presidential, knew how to work the press and get shit done, even if I didn't agree with all or even most of it.

I want guys like that on my side. Probably why I like Trump.

Let my flogging begin....

Anonymous Minion #414 September 19, 2015 9:56 AM  

"Yes, rhetoric can be based on emotions and it can be based on facts."

So instead of stating "HP was poorly managed during Carly's stewardship" state the following...

"Just look at the women and minorities who got fired when Carly was running HP and she took home millions!!"

Better?

Blogger Daniel September 19, 2015 9:59 AM  

What I find hilarious is that Trump's critics claim Trump is weak on foreign policy.

What the hell do they think immigration is?

Blogger Bobo #117 September 19, 2015 10:03 AM  

@ Salt
"The US is not a business."

I laughed til I cried! Awesome!

Blogger Salt September 19, 2015 10:05 AM  

is usually progressives, who are evil, that set out the narrative, that then we are forced to follow.

Which is why we use rhetoric the way we do.

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler September 19, 2015 10:06 AM  

You got it Minion #414!

Blogger IM2L844 September 19, 2015 10:11 AM  

@61

Yes, the Tea Party has also attracted a large contingent of militant atheists who find open borders libertarianism accommodates their faith and "Do as thou wilt" philosophy nicely. It's not at all surprising that they would reject Lindsay's position on this.

Blogger CM September 19, 2015 10:11 AM  

Cail -

I would think you just described WHY they are the backbone of Black Society. Without them, the black community has fallen apart.

Blogger Nate September 19, 2015 10:12 AM  

I really don't get the problem we all have with Cruz. on paper the guy should be great. He says all the right things. He DOES all the right things.

But something about the guy just bothers me. There's a smarm to him...

Blogger Nate September 19, 2015 10:13 AM  

""Just look at the women and minorities who got fired when Carly was running HP and she took home millions!!""

no no no

"lost their jobs"... not "fired'. Fired implies they may have done something wrong. Remember.. innocent victims of Carly's greed.

Blogger Cail Corishev September 19, 2015 10:17 AM  

Daniel,

Exactly. Besides, we know "weak on foreign policy" means, "Not obsessed enough with policing the world," and more specifically it means, "We're not sure we trust him to support Israel and oppose Russia hard enough." Seems to me a candidate could very easily turn that accusation into a positive with voters. Look what Buchanan did with "America First!" at a time when people weren't this upset yet.

Anonymous patrick kelly September 19, 2015 10:18 AM  

@73 Nate: "But something about the guy just bothers me. There's a smarm to him..."

Yeah, something just ain't right about that boy, and he's my senator, I voted for him just to piss off the few Ds I know here int Texas.

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey September 19, 2015 10:20 AM  

The Trumpenkrieg is unstoppable!

Anonymous MrGreenMan September 19, 2015 10:21 AM  

Well, the black queen mystic prophetess (or whatever she calls herself) Azealia Banks thinks Trump will be good for black people; the only possible thing she can be speaking to is his immigration policy, as black people I talk to directly understand that they compete with Hispanics for jobs and the squeeze is on them. Then again, I've talked to Hispanics in service jobs here and they realize that continually open borders limit their ability to ask for more money since it makes them replaceable.

The Country Carly videos making the rounds from Buzz Feed establish one undeniable fact: Carly Fiorina has no sense of humor and is not funny.

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler September 19, 2015 10:21 AM  

Well, it could also be that the position of the Western Michigan Tea Party is that it is full of Yankees. I just finished the book, Yankee Babylon by MacDonald King Aston. Yankees adopted and secularized Puritainism. It is about establishing the millenialist utopia and that since "they are good" and the rest evil, they must use violence to "correct" other people. Hence the War between the States.

Another thing is that Scandanavians have a ten rules about themselves and the last one is "You can't tell me nothing". Sooo.

They open their meeting with prayer, but don't really believe in anything, I guess. They took one look at the phrase "Tower of Babel" and I could see a shift in their facial expressions. As a Greek, we are lovers of knowledge. We are always curious. Yet, I see the complete opposite in the Yankee.

I was adopted into a Southern WASP family that converted to Catholicism so I have some roots in the South. And Aston points out that America at the Time of the War, was literally two separate nations. It was about Lincoln forcing his "Gnostic Union" upon the South. Very interesting read and very enlightening about what a Yankee is. An inner Puritan.

Anonymous The other robot September 19, 2015 10:22 AM  

@61 Talking to them about the harms of immigration would be like asking if their daughters like bukkake.

You should not write things like that when I have to drink coffee.

Anonymous Orville September 19, 2015 10:22 AM  

@57 I recommend everyone read Wheeler's linked paper on race. There is much to agree with there particularly the first section. Wheeler, you might also reference Acts 17:26 as well for a New Testament validation for those who would say that was OT and no longer applicable.

Blogger Chris Mallory September 19, 2015 10:24 AM  

@73 "I really don't get the problem we all have with Cruz. "

Because he is a lying NeoCon shill who has never seen a war for Israel that he didn't like. Add in the fact that he never should have been allowed to be born in this nation and his negatives are sky high.

Blogger Were-Puppy September 19, 2015 10:26 AM  

@1 Wyrd
Trump made fun of Fiorina's (A WOMAN!) looks! Teh Horror! Teh Horror! *Let's ignore Fiorina driving HP straight into the ground
---

Trump is too generous with spreading around his insults. He really should have saved the face bit for Hillary. Maybe its good enough to use again?

Blogger IM2L844 September 19, 2015 10:28 AM  

Cruz has the air of a traveling Pentecostal tent preacher - something the mainstream media has been making fun of for decades. I think the general public today has consequently developed a subconscious objection to such things.

Blogger Were-Puppy September 19, 2015 10:38 AM  

@5 Rantor
3. agree Sensei. The Chief Justice is the #1 enemy of the state, for Obamacare alone. Greatest traitor of the 21st Century.
----

I like to think of little scenarios and what ifs. What if, after a month of Trump being in office, the lefty and treacherous parts of the Supreme Court went missing.
So there is maybe 4 or 5 vacancies.

How would it be possible to get through real constitutionalist judges?
There would be cries of "Trump Did It, Somehow".

There would be cries of "We have to put in all liberals because that's what were removed"

There would be cries of SJWs "This is our chance to put in Midgets, Schizos, TransIntelligent Wormwoods".

And Trump would hopefully say No, or You're Fired.

Pure hypothetical, but at least Trump would probably fight for every vacancy. I'm not sure most of the other candidates would fight for more than half, splitting the others out of some misplaced bipartisanship.

Blogger Were-Puppy September 19, 2015 10:44 AM  

@6 PhillipGeorge©2015

The issue is not whether Trump is conservative. The issue is will he deal with immigration.

Oh, BTW, Putin is not running for election here.

Blogger Were-Puppy September 19, 2015 10:47 AM  

@7 Josh

Aren't you one of the guys who keeps saying Trump is not a conservative? If so, then why would he be bound by the conservative narrative to increasing legal immigration?


Blogger W.LindsayWheeler September 19, 2015 11:02 AM  

At the local Catholic Church, I passed out a flier about the article to parishioners as they walked in. I did that for two masses without any trouble. At the third mass, when they were coming out, I was still passing it out. I gave it to a Negro Roman Catholic Deacon. He scanned it and then dropped it from his hands. Moments later, the priest came out charging down the steps and said, how dare I pass it out at his church. I said it was a Biblical lesson. He threatened me with the police and being banned. I told him, I am only doing your job and then I left. At the corner, other parishioners accosted me, yelling at how evil I was and how dare I. Well.

That is why I am turning that article into a book. I have got a lot of information that still needs to get out plus more dirt on the Catholic Church. It is the end of the so-called Doctrine of the infallibility of the Magisterium. It is now over. I have proof from encyclicals and Vatican II document that shows that they have adopted Cultural Marxism wholesale. It is pretty bad. I don't think there is a valid orders or valid sacraments anywhere in the Catholic Church.

Blogger collisioncat67 September 19, 2015 11:02 AM  

This blog and its comments demonstrate why Trump continues to bulldoze the other field of more-ofthe-same Repub dullards.

More words here have been utilized in discussing Trump; pro and con (85% pro) then all the other candidates put together and multiplied by three.

If Trump is consistently sucking the air out of the room, as some have complained then perhaps its because he is the only one with the chest to do so.

Anonymous Danby September 19, 2015 11:02 AM  

Which candidate has the highest propensity for being a nationalist?

Santorum and (surprisingly) Jindal. They're the only two talking about deporting illegals, and Jindal is not on the Israel train.

Cruz is also married to Goldman Sacks. That's a disqualifier right there.

Blogger automatthew September 19, 2015 11:05 AM  

Trump is too generous with spreading around his insults.

Mozart never ran out of notes.

Anonymous Minion #414 September 19, 2015 11:06 AM  

""lost their jobs"... not "fired'. Fired implies they may have done something wrong. Remember.. innocent victims of Carly's greed."

Lost their jobs implies anything- Natural disaster, inexplicable downturn, etc.

Fired means the nasty person at the top threw them under the bus while pocketing millions. See how that works?

Blogger Were-Puppy September 19, 2015 11:07 AM  

@19 simplytimothy
Trump made fun of Fiorina's (A WOMAN!) looks! Teh Horror! Teh Horror! *Let's ignore Fiorina driving HP straight into the ground*
---
Maybe I am missing something?

Are you sure the second statement is not rhetoric?
I believe it is, but maybe not the pertinent or stronger of the two.

My point is, I don't think it's dialectic, but weak rhetoric.

Blogger Were-Puppy September 19, 2015 11:10 AM  

@24 James Dixon
> I like Trump on immigration, though he hasn't seemed to have realized that a fence means nothing without guards ready to kill anyone scaling it.

I've said it before. Remote controlled cameras and guns accessible via the Net. Let people undergo a background check, then when they pass they're can access a post. Give bounties for every illegal killed or disabled. It would be the killer game of the decade.
---

Or, make a real life version of my Immigration Tower Defense Game.

Anonymous kfg September 19, 2015 11:14 AM  

" He really should have saved the face bit for Hillary."

Whatever you do, don't look at her face.

Blogger Were-Puppy September 19, 2015 11:24 AM  

@43 Ron Winkleheimer
The latest "outrage" is that Trump didn't "correct" some guy at a rally when he said that Obama was a Muslim.

All the other Republican candidates, when asked about this, denounced Trump for not jumping to Obama's defense and averred that of course Obama was a Christian.

No wonder Trump is kicking their asses.

They make themselves look like school yard prigs scolding some other kid over his failure to follow teacher's rules. And Obama's bitches.
---

Exactly this. Have they already forgotten Trumps second biggest issue is anti-PC?

The only problem is the guy changes the subject slightly from illegal immigration to muslims. But hey, they are on the list too.

Blogger Were-Puppy September 19, 2015 11:27 AM  

@48 ZhukovG
Once Trump qualifies for Secret Service protection, I think he should decline use his own security people.
--

No way! His own security doesn't mind roughing up goons!

Anonymous Mike M. September 19, 2015 11:29 AM  

There's part of me that thinks Trump should have doubled down on Fiorina...sideways. Claim that she looks pretty old in the face for a 40-year-old. :-)

Anonymous WillBest September 19, 2015 11:35 AM  

I suspect the Establishment is going to be real interested in reducing the field to Trump, Carson, Fiorina, Huckabee, Rubio, and Jeb here in the next 3-4 weeks. And I suspect they would really love to get rid of Jeb! At this point, but he has some sort of inferiority complex driving him.

Blogger Carl Philipp September 19, 2015 11:40 AM  

@96 Your Immigration Tower Defense game? Is that an actual thing, or just an idea? Because I've been thinking over the past day or two about ideas for something like that.....

Blogger Were-Puppy September 19, 2015 11:45 AM  

@75 Nate
I really don't get the problem we all have with Cruz. on paper the guy should be great. He says all the right things. He DOES all the right things.

But something about the guy just bothers me. There's a smarm to him...
--

I get the same impression. Otherwise, he seems a pretty good candidate.

Blogger Anthony Gillis, the Hydra-Headed Mockery September 19, 2015 11:54 AM  

"This is the Mostest Importantets Election EVER, so you must vote for the corrupt moderate the bankers have chosen to fund"

As a dog returns to its vomit...

Pretty much what the GOP has done every election since 1988, but with particularly dull repetitiveness since 2000. The DC cuck / periwig-aristocrat camp of conservatives has been doing it longer. Never forget they HATED Reagan, nearly as much as the left did.

Still, they've outdone themselves by lining up behind Bush III. Like they're trying for a cartoon exaggeration of their own cynicism, class loyalty, and well-earned reputation for stupidity.

Blogger Were-Puppy September 19, 2015 12:01 PM  

@102 Carl Philipp
@96 Your Immigration Tower Defense game? Is that an actual thing, or just an idea? Because I've been thinking over the past day or two about ideas for something like that.....
---

It's just an idea that was inspired in one of the topics here about the invasion of Europe. But it would be easy enough to put one together for the United States.

Hit me up by email if you'd like to hash out some ideas.



Anonymous REG September 19, 2015 12:05 PM  

Just an observation here in Oklahoma. Oklahoma came out with some strict illegal immigration laws and policies in recent years. The amount of Hispanic roofers and landscapers has decreased and I am seeing Blacks on roofs, running landscaping equipment and even begin working in stores that didn't have Hispanics in the first place. My guess is that when the Blacks didn't have to compete with the Hispanics, this gave a boost to Blacks willingness to try out for even more opportunity in the business world and found it. I can only hope it continues to grow.

Blogger rycamor September 19, 2015 12:29 PM  

75. Nate September 19, 2015 10:12 AM

I really don't get the problem we all have with Cruz. on paper the guy should be great. He says all the right things. He DOES all the right things.

But something about the guy just bothers me. There's a smarm to him...


As some article said (can't remember where), he reminds you of the guy on late-night infomercials trying to sell something to the elderly.

Anonymous Wyrd September 19, 2015 12:32 PM  

@Josh

"Stand with Rand!"

Agreed. We need to abolish laws against murder, rape, theft, etc, because they have disparate impact against our negro brethren.

Blogger Desiderius September 19, 2015 12:41 PM  

"But something about the guy just bothers me. There's a smarm to him...
--

I get the same impression. Otherwise, he seems a pretty good candidate."

It the difference between frame control (Trump) and obliviousness to others (Cruz).

Similar to alpha/sigma.

Blogger Cail Corishev September 19, 2015 12:54 PM  

I hope you guys are right about blacks wanting jobs back from mestizos. Like I said, I'm just looking at it from the outside; and while there were exceptions, on the whole they've appeared pretty resistant to appeals to entrepreneurial spirit and work ethic in recent decades. Jack Kemp comes to mind. But I'd like to be wrong and have you be right on this one.

Anonymous map September 19, 2015 1:07 PM  

Frankly, I don't know why anyone thinks Trump's policy on illegal immigration is somehow going to get undone by legal immigration maneuvers. If he is getting his immigration information from Jeff Sessions, then Trump is surely aware of the effects of legal immigration. How could he not be?

The ultra dramatic focus on illegal immigration (bad people, make Mexico pay for wall) is a tactic to open up the can of the immigration debate. It worked.

What's important is to look at the Establishment's response to Trump's take on illegal immigration. They went full barrels against him, making every argument, from impractical to immoral. This was a mistake on the part of the Establishment. They were hoping he would fold. Instead, Trump doubled-down, so now the Establishment is forced to defend illegailty.

Or, maybe the Establishment understands that fighting illegal immigration is the first step to fighting immigration in general, which is why they stepped up their attack on Trump.

As for blacks? Blacks do not want to live in neighborhoods where Hispanics will push them out.

Blogger rycamor September 19, 2015 1:52 PM  

Vox, it's pretty sad that we've come to the point where all other issues are subordinate to IMMIGRATION IMMIGRATION IMMIGRATION. The first time you touched on this I reacted with denial, but I think it's true. We can't fix *any* other problems in big government, economics, taxes, our political process, etc... if the constant flow of new voters is reliably guaranteed to corrupt all of the above even more.

I think there is one area where human freedom has increased, though: gun ownership and rights. Ironically the immigration crisis has helped to galvanize US citizens. It also probably spurred the advancement of home schooling.

Blogger RobertT September 19, 2015 1:53 PM  

" ...almost as much...."

I think they hate them more. Who do you hate the most, an avowed enemy, or a traitor who delivers you to the enemy?

Anonymous The other robot September 19, 2015 2:22 PM  

Am I morally obligated to defend the President every time someone says something bad, but true, about him?

Anonymous The other robot September 19, 2015 2:23 PM  

Am I morally obligated to defend murderous immigrants?

Blogger Carl Philipp September 19, 2015 2:29 PM  

@115 Well, I mean, the Good Samaritan helped that guy without asking whether he was a terrorist, so apparently you have to close your eyes and ears to the rising rape rate. If you even want to know what it is, this proves you are lacking in compassion. Or something?

Blogger Were-Puppy September 19, 2015 2:31 PM  

@112. rycamor September 19, 2015 1:52 PM

I think there is one area where human freedom has increased, though: gun ownership and rights. Ironically the immigration crisis has helped to galvanize US citizens. It also probably spurred the advancement of home schooling.
---

You can thank Obama for this, and all of the stupid gun control garbage that the lefties have been trying to sneak or ram through since he got in office.

Blogger Arcane Rhino September 19, 2015 2:36 PM  

@45 "The latest "outrage" is that Trump didn't "correct" some guy at a rally when he said that Obama was a Muslim."

I have been very amused by the point and shriek. I saw the actual CNN "on the ground" interview. I don't watch CNN enough to know who the personalities are but they were all sitting around the table trying to make an issue of this. As they kept trying to coerce the reporter, who was reporting from the event, into saying Trump's supporters were all radical crazy racists, she finally said that while there were certainly fringe elements, the overwhelming majority were reasonable, like most groups.

The anchor murmured (paraphrased): Oh, absolutely. Of course.

Then the group dropped the issue completely because the reporter failed to confirm that Trump is an evil racist like all his supporters. (Poor girl, I suspect she may be looking for a new reporting gig very soon.)

The next morning, the BREAKING ISSUE was, surprise that Trump is failing to correct an evil racist and therefore is one. The left is terrified of Trump.

Anonymous Mike M. September 19, 2015 3:05 PM  

@110 Cali:

It won't matter. Expelling the illegals is the first step in a welfare reform chain reaction.

Step 1 is to expel the illegals.

Step 2 is to cut welfares for men, force them to work or starve.

Step 3 is to cut welfares for women, force them to marry, work, or starve.

The welfare state undermined marriage, and the rest of civil society. Expel illegals, and we can be rid of it.

Anonymous BigGaySteve September 19, 2015 3:08 PM  

Once the repatriation mechanisms are in place, it will be very easy to send back the legal immigrants.

If Trump said "I will pardon anyone who has killed an illegal alien felons, drug dealers, rapists or wearing MS-13 facial tattoos" 11 million would self deport within a month.

@16 At least whoever wins will have a FAB-U-LOUS! army at their disposal.

If the 68th black lesbian Extra Heavy Infantry come to take your guns have a bucket of FKC on your porch with extra hemlock.

he hasn't seemed to have realized that a fence means nothing without guards ready to kill anyone scaling it.

Try sneaking into his penthouse to test your belief and report back to us.

Blogger VFM bot #188 September 19, 2015 3:20 PM  

Yes, we like what Cruz stands for, and what he says, but...the problem is, he's too smart by half. He's been doing everything "exactly right" and "at the top of his class" since he's been a kid. Now in politics, he knows "talking" and the way he does it is crucially important. So he has set about making sure he talks "exactly right"...which comes across like shit; he sounds oleaginous, like the late-night hustler pitching a product to the elderly. It's unfortunate. You'd think Cruz would avoid falling into such a trap.. He's great...until you listen to him talk. Then he's smarmy, which is a synonym of oleaginous.

Anonymous The other robot September 19, 2015 3:34 PM  

The welfare state undermined marriage, and the rest of civil society. Expel illegals, and we can be rid of it.

You are being too simplistic.

The purpose of the welfare state is to channel money from the prudent to the financial class via the imprudent.

Wall Street is unlikely to like the elimination of welfare.

Anonymous REG September 19, 2015 3:38 PM  

"110. Cail Corishev September 19, 2015 12:54 PM

I hope you guys are right about blacks wanting jobs back from mestizos. Like I said, I'm just looking at it from the outside; and while there were exceptions, on the whole they've appeared pretty resistant to appeals to entrepreneurial spirit and work ethic in recent decades. Jack Kemp comes to mind. But I'd like to be wrong and have you be right on this one."

Add in Mike M at 119 recommendations; plus, don't expect a miracle and I'll add my hope to yours. (Remember, my comment is only a local observation).

Anonymous The other robot September 19, 2015 3:39 PM  

If the 68th black lesbian Extra Heavy Infantry come to take your guns have a bucket of FKC on your porch with extra hemlock.

Surely half n half would be better? Half KFC, half Doritos.

Blogger BunE22 September 19, 2015 3:41 PM  

@112

This is in Trump's statement on 2nd Amendment rights:

NATIONAL RIGHT TO CARRY. The right of self-defense doesn’t stop at the end of your driveway. That’s why I have a concealed carry permit and why tens of millions of Americans do too. That permit should be valid in all 50 states. A driver’s license works in every state, so it’s common sense that a concealed carry permit should work in every state. If we can do that for driving – which is a privilege, not a right – then surely we can do that for concealed carry, which is a right, not a privilege.

It shocked me. I imagine that would have the left wetting themselves if it came to pass.

Blogger njartist September 19, 2015 3:57 PM  

@13. simplytimothy

Thank you for the link to Scott Adams and his blog: it was an interesting few hours; even went out hunting for his non-comic books at a used book store. His take on Trump and "wizards" was good reading.

Anonymous BGS September 19, 2015 4:00 PM  

That permit should be valid in all 50 states. A driver’s license works in every state,

This is what people should have been hammering since the Supremes ruled on gay marriage.

good jobs in the middle class or better, usually working for government or for corporations that have to watch their racial quotas.

Mexicans are smarter and work harder than blacks and are even more desired for quota whoring. HR ladies get wet thinking about hiring a Hispanic that is qualified.

@38Which was support the Assault Weapons Ban and longer wait periods.

Neither one would have stopped the illegal alien that proved Trump's point from stealing a cops gun to kill a white San Fran woman

while the black turnout drops like a rock Trump could get some of the living black vote.

I would say 10-15% of blacks are smart enough to know illegals hurt them. Mestizos basically ethnically cleansed them from Compton and Harlem with liberal police chiefs looking the other way. Mexicans are not afraid to say they work harder & are smarter than blacks.

Trump has consistently said that he's going to send illegals home only to bring most of them right back.

You are vastly overestimating how many good ones exist with no criminal records.

CMI don't know if my newly discovered brazenness is good or bad.

If you don't like the discovery that you have balls you can always do like Bruce Jenner.

I hope you guys are right about blacks wanting jobs back from mestizos

Those could be refugee blacks from Africa, some plants that use low skilled workers work with the Refugee Resettlement Program.

Am I morally obligated to defend the President every time someone says something bad, but true, about him?

Someone asked me to describe a fellow employee that she didn't know, I said "Alison is under 5' but wider around at the waist than I am at the shoulders", which I was told was a horrible description.

Blogger Salt September 19, 2015 4:00 PM  

That’s why I have a concealed carry permit

Your right is licensed, Mr. Trump, just like the privilege you enjoy.

Blogger Cail Corishev September 19, 2015 4:01 PM  

This is in Trump's statement on 2nd Amendment rights:

Wait, you mean he has written policy statements that cover more issues and in greater depth than the quotes and soundbites we're getting from debates and speeches? Huh.

Blogger automatthew September 19, 2015 4:09 PM  

Went to Home Depot today to get some paint. The counter was staffed by two pleasant white women, one in her forties, tall and a bit overweight; the other was 25 (she volunteered the information), about 4'8", and reasonably cute in that Texas small town way. While I was waiting for my paint, another white woman came to the counter, late thirties, obese but well turned out (would have been attractive if thin).

Somebody mentioned Brownsville, Texas, and the short one didn't know where it was. Obese customer said, "Oh, it's down south at the border."

I'm sounding folks out more aggressively lately, so I said, "Yeah. Invasion Central." This drew honest laughter from all three women. They know.

Blogger VFM bot #188 September 19, 2015 4:22 PM  

Well done, automatthew. Meme-spreading (as opposed to the evil man-spreading). We should all pay attention, and do more of it.

Blogger automatthew September 19, 2015 4:28 PM  

Man-spreading is how you make them want to remember you.

Blogger Were-Puppy September 19, 2015 4:36 PM  

@129 Cail Corishev
This is in Trump's statement on 2nd Amendment rights:

Wait, you mean he has written policy statements that cover more issues and in greater depth than the quotes and soundbites we're getting from debates and speeches? Huh.
---

I was surprised also. There is one paper on immigration, and another on the 2nd amendment.

Blogger VFM bot #188 September 19, 2015 5:12 PM  

Trump has already publicly stated he'll be rolling out various position papers in the weeks to come, particularly a tax plan. You haven't been listening? Or have you got wax in your ears? :--)

Blogger Cail Corishev September 19, 2015 5:31 PM  

I was being sarcastic. *I* know Trump has position papers and has offered more details on smaller stages. But I hear a lot of, "Why isn't Trump talking about...." and "But Trump hasn't brought up...." based on the fact that he hasn't mentioned some things in the debates and major interviews. As if the MSM is ever going to say: "Mr. Trump, could you give us a nuanced overview of your position on such-and-such so that our viewers can discover that you're not the raving clown we've been telling them you are? Please, take all the time you like."

Anonymous The other robot September 19, 2015 5:37 PM  

It is rapidly approaching the time when Sirhan Sirhan will be resurrected (for the children, of course.)

Anonymous The other robot September 19, 2015 5:46 PM  

The offspring of the dumb immigrant who claimed he made a clock did no such thing

Anonymous Nxx September 19, 2015 6:24 PM  

I have proof from encyclicals and Vatican II document that shows that they have adopted Cultural Marxism wholesale.

The Novus Ordo Wire keeps track of Chaos Frank and his daily miracle of the multiplying heresies.

[An Immigration Tower Defense is] just an idea that was inspired in one of the topics here about the invasion of Europe. But it would be easy enough to put one together for the United States. Hit me up by email if you'd like to hash out some ideas.

Look at the game mechanics in Cubemen 1 (unity plugin required). Instead of dropping turrets into a position like you do in a regular TD, you order your soldiers to advance to it RTS style. It's a hybrid approach that works very well.

Meme-spreading (as opposed to the evil man-spreading). We should all pay attention, and do more of it.

Yes we need our version of the Gramscian "personal is political" even though we're 80 years behind.

OpenID simplytimothy September 19, 2015 7:32 PM  

@126 njartist glad you enjoyed it.

@95 were-puppy. re: Let's ignore Fiorina driving HP straight into the ground* not being rhetoric....

I highly recommend Scott Adam's Dilbert blog blog.dilbert.com for studying the properties of the craft. I am very new to it, so it is best you consider the opinions of people who have been doing it a while.

FWIW, my reasoning is that your statemen is a statement of fact. We don't want facts, we want feelings, images and associations.

Compare "she ran HP into the ground" with ...
"She is a dangerous executive"
"Her former employees are angry because of her"
"Face it, she sent HP to the Glue Factory"

See the difference? The emphasis is on emotional reactions , desired imagery etc. I have an HP48G that I love to use. I am pissed at what she did to that company. The rhetoritician who wants to reach me rhetorically will focus on the "pissed" and not the "fact" .

my 2 cents.

Anonymous Legatus September 19, 2015 8:40 PM  

Let us say that Trump is elected.
And let us say that Trump builds a fence, so far, so good (as long as it is a very good fence, and a defended and patrolled fence).

And now Trump wants to expel the illegals who are already in the country. What will be needed to do that, and what will be the consequences if we achieve the capability to do so? They will not want to go, so we must use force, we will need troops, used to operating on US soil in urban environments and empowered to use force on people in the US. So, troops and armored vehicles etc everywhere, bursting into homes and hauling people away. Next, the illegals will hide themselves, so we will need spies, secret police, to find them, maybe we can get the people on every block to spy on their neighbors to help (I never liked that guy next door, Imma gonna turn him in). Oh, and if you are one of those spies (or soldiers), there are lucrative opportunities for you if you play your cards right, bribes, blackmail, either to not tell, or to turn someone in who is not, in fact, illegal.

So, now we have a force, say, the department of Homeland Security, with spies everywhere and troops everywhere, able to seize people and haul them away everywhere in the USA. Don't give me the presidency, give me a position of real POWER, I want to be the head of the Department of Homeland Security. I haven't decided, should I change that “homeland” to fatherland or motherland? Oh, and you may call me Chancellor, and I want to see that picture of me that you are required to keep on an otherwise blank wall of your house dusted daily, it will be inspected.

Remember, this is the country where we now have the department of Education SWAT team, in fact, pretty much every major department now wants and has their own little army of SWAT, do we trust bureaucrats who want military power like that to have a major sized army and secret police everywhere? Is it true that huge amounts of 9mm ammo has been scarfed up by the Department of Homeland Security, police report that 9mm is now scarce, where did it go? You said bad things about our government union, department, or of course, me, The Great Leader (or is it The Dear Leader, I forget), so, if we say you are illegal, we are the government, you have to go. Hey, you protested, or wrote bad things about, all this military and spy activity going on all around you, so, we have to investigate you. Nah, too much bother, touch a few buttons and presto, your illegal!

Deporting million of people forcibly form the US, if done as quickly as trump wants, would inevitably result in the recipe for an almost certain dictatorship.
Actions Have Consequences.

Blogger SciVo September 19, 2015 8:40 PM  

Josh @36: "There was a long stretch of the debate where the questions were about policy and not "Trump said this, would you like to tell him why he's wrong". Trump essentially disappeared for most of that part."

Silence is a highly underrated rhetorical technique. Sometimes there is nothing better than nothing.

Blogger SciVo September 19, 2015 8:53 PM  

CM @53: I don't know if my newly discovered brazenness is good or bad.

I know how you feel. It was very freeing to simply not care about being called a racist sexist homophobic big meany poopyhead. Now I can think thoughts that were literally unthinkable before, and judge them on their merits, instead of by an indoctrinated knee-jerk reaction.

However, I'm worried about going too far. When you reach the point where you can say, "You know, Hitler wasn't all bad. At least he cared about defending his borders," it might be time to dial it back.

Anonymous Legatus September 19, 2015 8:59 PM  

Oh, and you may think, in this circumstance, we need a dictatorship, we need someone who can use real force (the would be dictator will stress this, “I need that power to protect you!”). BUT, now you have said that it is OK to use force in people in the US. This has consequences, if the Great Leader can use force, than force can be used on the Great Leader. The GL doesn't want that, so, he will need his own private little guards army to protect him from the regular army, and from all those troops running around US streets. And he will need to weaken the regular army (and air force, and navy), to assure that his guards army is the strongest force, wouldn't want a Colonel Khadafy to bomb the presidential palace and take over, now would we, since we have now shown that power comes from bullets, not ballots. And, he will need a secret police to find who is plotting against him, in the army, the anti-illegals army, or the people (who we know are rife with illegals, don't we, can't trust 'em), and another secret police, so the two agencies can spy on each other (illegals, illegals everywhere!).

If you give the government the power to us force inside the US, on a major basis, a dictatorship will ensue. It must, once force is used like that, consequences follow, and the new Great Leader must take certain steps to protect himself, you know, so as to “protect” the people from all those illegals. And, if he has to escalate that use of force, well, he can tell himself “I am only doing it for the people”. They all say that, they start out saying that, but eventually, the force is mainly used to keep themselves in power and for nothing else.

And even if the dictator is relatively good (and it can only be relatively, a dictator MUST do certain things to stay alive and in power), sometimes you get a Claudius, but usually you get a Caligula, why, because they have the power, because they can.

Anonymous harry12 September 19, 2015 9:16 PM  

( Long-winded ) troll alert!

Blogger Cail Corishev September 19, 2015 9:51 PM  

You know, Legatus is right. We can't possibly deport all the illegal aliens, let alone the legal immigrants. I don't know what we were thinking, but I'm glad he schooled us. It's impossible to do without destroying our freedoms, so we'll just have to accept living in an increasingly crowded, hungry, crime-ridden, diseased nation which will take away our freedoms anyway. Ah well, easy come easy go.

However, I'm pretty sure we could deport Legatus. I mean, he's just one guy. Throw a sack over his head, stick him in the trunk of a south-bound Buick, and call it a job well done. Whaddya say, gang?

Blogger newanubis September 19, 2015 10:09 PM  

Did anyone pick up on the Donald's tell? Whenever bested in an exchange, he turns beat red. Must have been in excess of a half dozen instances.

Also, I noticed that following him after his typical lightly informed statements they panned and then engaged Rubio on the very same topic. The difference was stark between what was effectively and weak grasp by trump and a well handled, well delivered one by Rubio.

This is a good thing for trump to be humbled in this way. As we know, he is ruled by his ego in appearance, and I believe this also now applies to how well versed he is on issue material. Basically, he's not going allow himself to look like the shallow puddle on that stage again. He will do whatever is necessary to learn between now and the next show/debate. I expect a vastly different, much improved Donald at this next iteration.

Blogger newanubis September 19, 2015 10:10 PM  

Did anyone pick up on the Donald's tell? Whenever bested in an exchange, he turns beat red. Must have been in excess of a half dozen instances.

Also, I noticed that following him after his typical lightly informed statements they panned and then engaged Rubio on the very same topic. The difference was stark between what was effectively and weak grasp by trump and a well handled, well delivered one by Rubio.

This is a good thing for trump to be humbled in this way. As we know, he is ruled by his ego in appearance, and I believe this also now applies to how well versed he is on issue material. Basically, he's not going allow himself to look like the shallow puddle on that stage again. He will do whatever is necessary to learn between now and the next show/debate. I expect a vastly different, much improved Donald at this next iteration.

Anonymous Dave September 19, 2015 10:26 PM  

Legatus didn't they give you any shorter scripts? You'll need to work on it over the next 13 months. Pithy is the word you should take to heart.

Anonymous map September 19, 2015 11:41 PM  

Legatus,

That is absurd.

Here is what you do: Every person who employs an illegal in his business is fined $1,000 a day per illegal...with half the money going to the person who rats you out. That will be sufficient to remove the vast bulk of illegal aliens.

Taxing remittances to Mexico at a rate of 75% will also remove illegals.

Only a very small percentage of them will require any "jack-booting."

Anonymous Discard September 20, 2015 2:28 AM  

Carson, Rubio, Cruz, and Jindal. Why would I ever vote for a Black, a Hispanic or a Dothead for President?

Blogger VFM bot #188 September 20, 2015 9:24 AM  

Legatus's posts above: Such pristine examples of concern trolling that I had to check the precise definition! A concern troll is: A person who posts on a blog thread, in the guise of "concern," to disrupt dialogue or undermine morale by pointing out...problems that don't really exist. The intent is to derail, stifle, control, the dialogue.

Meh.
Repatriation will proceed in an orderly, humane fashion, without undue disruption or suffering. Once it becomes clear that federal, state, and local government are serious, an orderly, voluntary migration back to points of origin will occur. This process might be helped by programs designed to assist people who voluntarily repatriate (that being the carrot). There will also be those who refuse and are found out through normal processes over time: Checking identification incident to traffic stops, employment checks, arrests for crimes, witness investigations, etc. These will be treated more sternly (that being the stick).

This ain't rocket science, something Donald Trump understands. The big question is: How will citizens be dealt with who commit the crime of helping illegal aliens avoid repatriation? They will be SJW's and others of the left who hate culture and civilization.

Blogger VFM bot #188 September 20, 2015 9:59 AM  

Regarding Trump's responses to the meme about Obama being a secret Muslim? Mark Steyn weighs in: Any candidate who plays this game with the Obamamedia is a fool. Steyn gives multiple excellent responses to the SJW-media...none of which duplicate Trump's.

Oh man...is this great or what?

Blogger VFM bot #188 September 20, 2015 11:15 AM  

Yes we need our version of the Gramscian "personal is political" even though we're 80 years behind.

We already have it: SJWs Always Lie.

"80 years behind"? Doesn't matter. We deal in facts, logic, and reality. They purvey lies, emotion, and rhetoric. In the end, we win, they lose.

Blogger Azimus September 25, 2015 11:40 PM  

test

Blogger Azimus September 25, 2015 11:41 PM  

Sorry I was trying out something - used an old thread. My phone will not allow me to comment so I thought I would try using my phone's hotspot to connect my laptop.

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