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Wednesday, October 14, 2015

A history lesson

John Wright helps the history-impaired:
Within twenty-five years after the death of Mohammed, the southern and eastern reaches of the Byzantine Empire, all Christian lands, and all fertile, were reduced by terror and sword to a wasteland. Te Jewish colonies of Yemen were conquered. Libya and much of Egypt to this day retains this character. All seven of the Churches mentioned by name in the Book of Revelation were conquered.

The Mohammedanism, like the Stalinism who came later, demand history be abolished, and are responsible for the burning and loss of nine tenth of the known lost ancient manuscripts of history. The destruction of the Stone Buddha statues in Afghanistan, or the famous museum in Babylon, was not a mistake or the act of some odd extremists: it is a central part of mainstream Sharia. Christian churches and relics are destroyed whenever they fall into Mohammedan hands: to this day, the Church of Saint Sophia in Constantinople is used as a mosque, in triumphant mockery of the defeated Christians.

You have no doubt heard that there was a Golden Age of Islam, where Muslim scholars preserved the works of Aristotle and the ancients, invented the zero, or made great strides in astronomy and mathematics. This is all an outrageous lie, the precise opposite of the truth. There were certain Spanish scholars, mostly Jews and Christians, conquered by Muslims, but who preserved the ancient texts despite the Muslim program of destroying them. The Byzantine Empire preserved what we have of ancient learning, and scholars fleeing the downfall of one Byzantine theme, province, or city after another in the relentless onslaught of Mohammed reintroduced them into the West. The Moslems not only were not the preservers of the knowledge of the ancient literature, they were the main force destroying it.
As I have already predicted, the 1st Amendment is over. One way or another.

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185 Comments:

Blogger Elocutioner #0226 October 14, 2015 3:06 PM  

The Consitution is all but dead. I hope that we'll have a ReConstitution that will be wiser about unchanging human nature.

Blogger Troy Lee Messer October 14, 2015 3:18 PM  

I have a question and I hope it isn't a stupid one. How does the Sunni-Shia war play out once these vermin get Europe? Do they take they schism to Europe? Both sides hate the west. Do they ever unify to fight the west

Blogger Thomas October 14, 2015 3:20 PM  

Generally speaking, this is correct. Islam made all of its scientific and philosophical advances on the peripheries of their empire, and as Islam expanded ever further those innovative souls within the empire were swallowed up. I will grant that Islam did come up with solid contributions to human knowledge - remember after all the greatest work of philosophy, Aquinas' Summa Theologica, was written in response to Averroes' arguments about God - but they snuffed out their own innovators in pursuit of theological purity.

Tom B

Blogger Jack Ward October 14, 2015 3:20 PM  

Thought I knew something about the rise of the Muslims. JCW dispelled that error. Very good. He is courageous indeed.

Blogger Rabbi B October 14, 2015 3:27 PM  

"The Moslems not only were not the preservers of the knowledge . . . they were the main force destroying it."

Yes. It's called living by the sword and nothing but the sword.

“The day of the L-rd is near
for all nations.

Just as you drank on my holy hill,
so all the nations will drink continually;
they will drink and drink
and be as if they had never been.
But on Mount Zion will be deliverance;
it will be holy,
and Jacob will possess his inheritance.
Jacob will be a fire
and Joseph a flame;
Esau will be stubble,
and they will set him on fire and destroy him.
There will be no survivors
from Esau.”

The L-rd has spoken.


- Obadiah 1

Can't come soon enough.

Blogger Patrick Kelly October 14, 2015 3:30 PM  

Getting pop-corn for the smack down JCW will likely soon deliver to the armchair historians in the comments....if he wants such amusement that is.

Blogger JWM October 14, 2015 3:32 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger JWM October 14, 2015 3:33 PM  

I've said this often. Too many in the West are far too educated, and sophisticated to believe in anything so crass as an apocalyptic holy war for the soul and future of the human race. The moslems are very busy fighting that war as we sit here.

JWM

Blogger Anonymous Robot October 14, 2015 3:34 PM  

But, but, all you need is hugs!

Blogger Rabbi B October 14, 2015 3:35 PM  

" . . . . the armchair historians."

Well, they did give us the OneThousand and One Nights . . :)

Blogger Travis Landenwitsch October 14, 2015 3:37 PM  

Does Wright have any sources to back up anything he wrote? Otherwise it reads like shoddy scholarship, and comes across as purely subjective.

Blogger Rabbi B October 14, 2015 3:38 PM  

@11

@Patrick Kelly

And we have a WINNER!

Blogger chris October 14, 2015 3:41 PM  

@2. The civil war between the factions of Muslims will continue: consider Afghanistan or Iraq. Being the wrong sort of Muslim is lethal: they practice cuis regius cuis religionis.

This will be a religious war. Those tend to be bloody.

Blogger Danby October 14, 2015 3:44 PM  

@11 Travis idiot
Do you have counter-documentation, otherwise, you read like an idiot that simply wants to ignore the argument by disqualification.

Blogger szook October 14, 2015 3:49 PM  

@11

Brother....do you even read, man!

Blogger Rabbi B October 14, 2015 3:52 PM  

@14 Danby

Yeah, I don't know about you, but when I hear the name John C. Wright I am immediately triggered and what immediately pops into my head is "shoddy scholarship." I am sure someone of JCW's caliber is only capable of writing subjectively and sans evidence. Unless Travis is trolling and just being obtuse for obtuseness sake.

Who said earlier that 'crazy' hadn't gotten tamer around here?

Blogger Josh October 14, 2015 3:56 PM  

The facts are plain and are not disputed. They are merely not mentioned by the press and not taught in public schools.

Does Mr Wright not consider Fox News to be part of the press?

Blogger Tom Kratman October 14, 2015 4:02 PM  

One Correction; the Hagia Sophia is not used as a mosque anymore, it's more or less a museum, and has been since 1935, under Ataturk. There is allegedly a very tiny mosque on the grounds or in the building, because it's forbidden to eliminate a mosque and Islamics are morally ingenious about getting around such restrictions. The presence of that tiny mosque is not apparently advertised.

Blogger Salt October 14, 2015 4:08 PM  

it's forbidden to eliminate a mosque

Forbidden, huh.

Blogger Josh October 14, 2015 4:08 PM  

The American public was largely unaware of events in the Middle East until the Carter administration,

The American public was unaware of the 1948 Arab Israeli War, Suez Crisis, Six Day War, Yom Kippur War, and the Oil Embargo?

when a series of inexplicably bad foreign policy decisions on the part of the United States allowed the secular postcolonial governments there to fall into the hands of persons explicitly adopting the political system called Sharia Law.

Well, if we hadn't overthrown their democratic government in 1953 and installed the Shah, perhaps the Iranians wouldn't have been so angry at us in 1979.

Of course, the worst of these foreign policy decisions was the Iraq War...

Since the fall of the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center, the conflict has occupied the headlines and made blatant what we previously had the luxury to ignore.

Blowback is a bitch?

Blogger JaimeInTexas October 14, 2015 4:12 PM  

My opinion is that we have been sold a huge propaganda lie that the Shiite are the extremists. Iran, hostages and all that. But Shiites do not seem bent on destroying historical artifacts.

I also would like to hear from someone knowledgeable in the region's history on the Sunni-Shiite divide.

Blogger Hammerli280 October 14, 2015 4:17 PM  

People forget that the Crusades were not an attack, but a counteroffensive. The Moslems started the fighting...and never quite gave up.

I think much of this comes from the different histories of early Christianity and Islam. Early Christians spent the first few centuries dodging persecutions. Early Moslems spent the first few centuries conquering half the Roman Empire. It made a vast difference in mindset.

Blogger VD October 14, 2015 4:17 PM  

Does Wright have any sources to back up anything he wrote? Otherwise it reads like shoddy scholarship, and comes across as purely subjective.

Don't be a complete moron, Travis. Yes, he does have sources. The fact that he doesn't cite them on a BLOG POST does not mean they don't exist. Don't be so damn lazy. Go look it up for yourself if you think he's wrong, don't just display your ignorance. Snarking like this makes you look ignorant AND stupid.

Blogger Josh October 14, 2015 4:18 PM  

You are a disgusting pile of excrement who should be ashamed to show your face in public.

Right.

I meant to say:

THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOMS AND OUR PICKUP TRUCKS AND OUR GIANT AMERICAN PENISES.

Feel better?

Blogger Jourdan October 14, 2015 4:20 PM  

Regardless of its strutting confidence, the fact remains that should the West summon the will to do so, it could conquer and reduce the Muslim world to ashes in a matter of weeks. Let us hope this will is found.

Blogger Zaklog the Great October 14, 2015 4:21 PM  

@24 Josh

Or you could accurately describe the violent and destructive nature that is inherent in Islam, whether we ever did anything to them or not. There's that option, filth.

Blogger Josh October 14, 2015 4:22 PM  

Regardless of its strutting confidence, the fact remains that should the West summon the will to do so, it could conquer and reduce the Muslim world to ashes in a matter of weeks. Let us hope this will is found.

Only if we used nukes.

Otherwise...did y'all not learn anything from the last fifteen years?

Blogger Josh October 14, 2015 4:24 PM  

Or you could accurately describe the violent and destructive nature that is inherent in Islam, whether we ever did anything to them or not. There's that option, filth.

If your neighbor has a rabid and violent dog with a history of lashing out, and you repeatedly poke the dog with a stick, and the dog eventually gets loose...

Blogger Jourdan October 14, 2015 4:27 PM  

@27 - Seriously, Josh, are you under the illusion that what the U.S. has been doing in the Muslim world over the past 15 years is *war*? Come off it. If we took the gloves off, the Kentucky National Guard could conquer the Arabian peninsula in under a week.

Blogger Josh October 14, 2015 4:29 PM  

Seriously, Josh, are you under the illusion that what the U.S. has been doing in the Muslim world over the past 15 years is *war*? Come off it. If we took the gloves off, the Kentucky National Guard could conquer the Arabian peninsula in under a week.

But could we hold it?

Blogger John Wright October 14, 2015 4:29 PM  

"Does Wright have any sources to back up anything he wrote? "

Anything...?

Well, one can start with the Al-Quran. Any Encyclopedia Britannica should confirm the dates quoted and the events. While I have grave doubts as to his approach on religious matters, Edward Gibbon describes the events accurately, albeit giving a flattering picture of the Mohammedans. Most of DECLINE AND FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE is, after all, a depiction of the fall of Byzantium to the Saracens.

I was not expecting anyone to dispute that Egypt had been ruled by the Byzantine Empire before the Mohammedan conquest, or to deny that the Byzantines were Christian.

Or was there some other point you had in mind to dispute?

If so, it is bad form to pen a blanket condemnation, when you only had a dispute about one controverted interpretation.

As for the contributions of the Mohammedans to science and scholarship, even the books claimed to be contributions are so thin and few as to make too short a list to discuss. I can name two or three Pre-Reconquista Spanish or Persian mathematicians or astronomers for every score of Christian writers on the same topic, for example. I am perfectly willing to discuss the contributions of Arzachel versus those of William of Occam or Nicholas Oresme, if you wish.

However, once you notice that all these contributions were made by less than a dozen astronomers living in Spain, and that, by the 14th century, no contributions were made from any land in the Dar-el-Islam, the burden of proof will be on you to explain why there was a golden age of science in Islamic nations when they were first conquered, and not once the scientific revolution was underway in the Thirteen Century in Europe (even though Islamic military power was still predominant in the East, and eventually took Constantinople.)

Or is that too complex and detailed a question for you? Am I referring to persons of whom you are unfamiliar?

Blogger haus frau October 14, 2015 4:30 PM  

@11 Hey Travis, if it really matters to you that much, won't you be a peach and google these easily verifiable names and historical events for us? Cause ya know, the answers and counter arguments are right at your own finger tips if you really felt so inclined though I'm sure you'd rather everyone else post dozens of links just so you can find some other trite means of brushing them off.

Blogger Elocutioner #0226 October 14, 2015 4:34 PM  

"Otherwise...did y'all not learn anything from the last fifteen years?"

Yep. If you elect pansies to run your wars it allows cave dwellers to murder your military through insane ROE's while we rebuild their rubble nation and import the next generation of fighters as refugees so they can hunt down and murder our military families on American soil. (Yes, that is going to happen.)

When we finally develop the will to destroy Islam I don't think we'll settle for an Obama or Bush type at the helm. K-selection is going to be a real bitch for the multicultis.

Blogger haus frau October 14, 2015 4:47 PM  

@24 Why can't it be both? Yeah, what we are seeing is blow back from a bizarrely retarded foreign policy......but poking Muslims is not dissimilar to playing soccer with a hornet's nest. Muslims have always had a certain blood thirsty, brittle, narcissistic character.

Blogger Patrick Kelly October 14, 2015 4:49 PM  

@31 JCW: "If so, it is bad form to pen a blanket condemnation, when you only had a dispute about one controverted interpretation."

Yeah, that's usually pretty much all they (obtuse trolls) have to offer. I've done it myself, but I'm repenting...unless someone really deserves it, and I'm drunk or something...

OpenID joeholocaust October 14, 2015 4:50 PM  

@5 There will be no survivors
from Esau.”
The L-rd has spoken.

- Obadiah 1

Can't come soon enough.


I'll drink to that.

Blogger Earl October 14, 2015 5:00 PM  

@Jamie In Tx

I know right? "I want to like you, Shiites, and Persians. I really do."

Blogger Harsh October 14, 2015 5:01 PM  

Just in time for another Travis spergfest. Fun.

Blogger John Wright October 14, 2015 5:05 PM  

"The American public was unaware of the 1948 Arab Israeli War, Suez Crisis, Six Day War, Yom Kippur War, and the Oil Embargo (sic)?"

Unless you are discussing a different American public than I am, yes. Only the Oil Embargo had an impact on American politics and the American public, and that took place during the years I mentioned, so it is hardly a counter example. Certainly they were of less import than the Cold War, which was a central issue of the day.

I would say it was not until the taking of American hostages under Carter that the matter moved into the center of public consciousness in America.

Otherwise, the Six Day War is mentioned about as often as the Armenian Genocide, and, to Americans, less often mentioned in public than the Battle of Gettysburg.

Blogger Josh October 14, 2015 5:12 PM  

Only the Oil Embargo had an impact on American politics and the American public, and that took place during the years I mentioned, so it is hardly a counter example.

Just to clarify, I'm referring to the 1973 embargo.

Blogger Cail Corishev October 14, 2015 5:18 PM  

Just in time for another Travis spergfest.

Must be Wednesday.

Blogger Curtis October 14, 2015 5:20 PM  

Yes, there are some crazy Muslims. Most Muslims want to be left alone by the crazy Muslims and crazy US/NATO.

US/NATO cried havoc, meddled, created a vacuum, and the dogs of war were let loose. And the fact is, if these countries were kissing USGov/Corporate ass, no problem.

Keep poking those crazy dogs. Which then "collateral" damages those who just want to be left alone.

And seriously, does anyone think for a nano-second our meddling in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Lebanon, Iran, etc., and Ukraine is really about dumbocracy and purple fingers?

Blogger Curtis October 14, 2015 5:29 PM  

US/NATO drops 50 tons of arms and ammo to "moderate" dumbocracy loving terrorists just recently.

If I were somewhere in this picture, I'd want to kill Americans too: http://tinyurl.com/oeslgw2

Blogger Salt October 14, 2015 5:30 PM  

If we took the gloves off, the Kentucky National Guard could conquer the Arabian peninsula in under a week.

But could we hold it?


One USN boomer could conquer it in under an hour. Not sure anyone would want it after that.

Blogger Dystopic October 14, 2015 5:31 PM  

To add to @31 John C. Wright's reply, here are a few additional sources which support the position:

Emmett Scott's Mohammed and Charlemagne Revisited book is an excellent source for how Islam is directly responsible for the fall of the old Roman World, and how the Islamic Golden Age was a myth. It is naturally an extension Henri Pirenne's Thesis, as the title would imply. His original work (Mohammed and Charlemagne) is also worth reading.

John Julius Norwich's three volume series on Byzantium also touches on the subject periodically, as does his single volume on the history of the Mediterranean.

A better question is why there is so much silence with regards to this topic among the academic community.

Blogger Patrick Kelly October 14, 2015 5:39 PM  

@40 : "Just to clarify, I'm referring to the 1973 embargo."

I was alive and well for that. Most people here in the US talked about or focused on "Arabs" or "OPEC", not Muslims or Islam. Didn't start sending troops over there to fix stuff so well until after the Iran hostage crap.

Blogger Conscientia Republicae October 14, 2015 5:47 PM  

And then read Henri Pirenne, the modern revisiting of his hypothesis, etc.

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery October 14, 2015 5:55 PM  

Curtis - US/NATO drops 50 tons of arms and ammo to "moderate" dumbocracy loving terrorists just recently.

"If you like your head, you can keep your head".

Blogger JaimeInTexas October 14, 2015 5:56 PM  

@37 Earl

Your point? I am not totally ignorant. I read plenty of history but I do not have an exhaustive nor a detailed knowledge at my beck-and-call. That is why I am asking.

Blogger Bluntobj Winz October 14, 2015 5:56 PM  

I do so enjoy seeing Mr. Wright issue the smaketh down upon the simpering churchian agnostics.

As a further aside, I note that the problem that @42 noted, namely "Yes, there are some crazy Muslims"
is much the same as we have with the Free Shit Army here in the US. The FSA is easily led by promises of largesse from the D's or R's, but they don't really have faith or any religion other than themselves.

Muslims have faith. In spades.

"Some crazy Muslims" and "Most Muslims want to be left alone" are fundamental cultural errors created by a bias that Allah cannot possibly be a motivator, and all they need is some Free Shit and they'll lapse into a cheeto, beer, and Caitlyn filled stupor like our FSA and everything will be cool.

As we have seen, Muslims are very motivated by their faith in Allah. They get the Free Shit too, when they take it from your cold dead hands. The Quran has quite the list of rules on how to loot and pillage infidels. It's this disbelief that westerners now have have that anyone could be so backward as to kill or pillage in the name of religion that is the real cancer.

After all, just imagine what would happen if the FSA lost access to EBT for a week or two. You'd see what they believed in then. How about "Kill the 1%" taking hold?

Conquer your incredulity first...

0178

Blogger JaimeInTexas October 14, 2015 5:58 PM  

When challenging someone like J. Wright, or anyone else for that matter, ask for a couple of authors or books that will touch on the subject matter. And follow through with reading the suggested material. Of course, The Decline and Fall will take some time to read.

Blogger Jack Ward October 14, 2015 6:17 PM  

@45 A better question is why there is so much silence with regards to this topic among the academic community.

Because, unlike JCW, they are afraid of losing their worthless heads. That, and the pc indoctrination of decades.

Blogger FP October 14, 2015 6:26 PM  

Travis, two links for you:

The book mentioned earlier which I highly recommend:

http://www.amazon.com/Mohammed-Charlemagne-Revisited-History-Controversy/dp/0578094185/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1444861262&sr=1-2&keywords=mohammed+and+charlemagne

And Bill Warner on Political Islam:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qpy0mXg8Y

OpenID Steve October 14, 2015 6:28 PM  

@24 Jo0ooosh THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOMS AND OUR PICKUP TRUCKS AND OUR GIANT AMERICAN PENISES

They would hate us anyway because we are not moslem and superior to them. A couple decades ago I asked a Syrian Christian his thoughts on middle east peace, he said that even moslems that use their hands for toilet paper consider themselves superior to the men who walked on the moon. I will have to defer to your knowledge of moslem penises, but point out the jewish at least 10% off stereotype seems to be true.

Yes, there are some crazy Muslims. Most Muslims want to be left alone by the crazy Muslims and crazy US/NATO

The "moderate" moslem like the leftist wants the normal moslem to kill STR8 YT MEN. Just like gays 90% give the rest a bad name.

Only if we used nukes. Bio weapons are cheaper per death and the only people in moslem oil nations that have medical knowledge are foreign workers. We gave Saddam chemical weapons to use on Iran but he used them on his own bad behaving moslems instead.

the Kentucky National Guard could conquer the Arabian peninsula in under a week. ...But could we hold it?

You would have to kill off the moslem population, after that it would be easy.

As for the contributions of the Mohammedans to science and scholarship,

After I told a friend about how to make a evaporative cooling pot that was described on my tour of ancient Pompeii to a friend that was worried about his insulin staying cool in the summer if there was another blackout, he looked it up online and told me I was wrong a moslem invented it. I looked at the webpage and the moslem invented zeer pots 5 years after I had taken the tour of Pompeii. He probably invented a clock as well.

Blogger Azimus October 14, 2015 6:29 PM  

11.Travis Landenwitsch October 14, 2015 3:37 PM
Does Wright have any sources to back up anything he wrote? Otherwise it reads like shoddy scholarship, and comes across as purely subjective.


Funny I had the same thought, particularly about the Haggia Sophia comment. But then what I did is do some research, see, and I was able to find out that since 2007 there has been a prayer room in the Haggia Sophia, and since 2013 they make the call to prayer from its minarets. By doing my own (minimal) research before shooting my mouth off, I was able to avoid playing the fool. And, I learned something! Hey!

Blogger Rabbi B October 14, 2015 6:35 PM  

"Travis, two links for you:"

You forgot "Commenting on VP for Dummies".

Blogger Were-Puppy October 14, 2015 6:35 PM  

@9 Anonymous Robot
But, but, all you need is hugs!
--

The fabric on that womans head would make some ugly ass ties.

Blogger luagha October 14, 2015 6:36 PM  


To add to all of this, remember Robert Spencer's 'Did Muhammad Exist' book.

To sum it up (and these facts are well known and wikipedia-able) there are only three historical references to a religious Muhammad-like figure within the hundred years after his supposed life and death, and those three are pretty vague.

'Muhammad-stories' and sayings were definitely around, and the first big collection of them was done about 120 years after his supposed death - the famous author of the first such collection, Ibn Ishaq, couldn't have spoken to anyone who personally spoke to Muhammad.

Add to that that unscrupulous people would make up fake Muhammad-sayings to benefit themselves, and use them as religious doctrine - this is well discussed in how Moslems supposedly police their own laws.

Anyhow, the big upshot I took from the book is that Muhammad is one notch more historical than King Arthur, and two notches less historical than Jesus.

Blogger Were-Puppy October 14, 2015 6:36 PM  

@11 Travis Landenwitsch
Does Wright have any sources to back up anything he wrote? Otherwise it reads like shoddy scholarship, and comes across as purely subjective.
---

Nope. Muslims burnt all evidence so people like you in the year 2015 could pretend there is nothing to worry about.

Blogger tim October 14, 2015 6:39 PM  

http://www.politicalislam.com/

Blogger Were-Puppy October 14, 2015 6:39 PM  

@19 Salt
it's forbidden to eliminate a mosque

Forbidden, huh.
----

Once they said communism could only be contained, not rolled back.

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey October 14, 2015 6:42 PM  

Why don't we eliminate them and their filthy mosques from the West, first, and then we can eradicate them in toto.

Blogger Azimus October 14, 2015 6:43 PM  

51.JaimeInTexas October 14, 2015 5:58 PM
When challenging someone like J. Wright, or anyone else for that matter, ask for a couple of authors or books that will touch on the subject matter. And follow through with reading the suggested material. Of course, The Decline and Fall will take some time to read.


I only read the abridged version (that was 700pgs or so), but it was worth noting how much Gibbon hated Christians and loved Muslims, particularly for the martial spirit of the Muslim religion and the... let's just say "non-martial" spirit of the Christians at the time. It was after reading this that I started describing Islam as "a soldier's religion" designed to create perfect fighting men - sober, chaste, eager to die in battle to become a martyr - so they could drink and sleep around in paradise. Soldiers' vices deferred is Islamic heaven...

Blogger LES October 14, 2015 6:44 PM  

I would say that Islam borrowed heavily from the Old Testament:

Deuteronomy 12:2-3

2 Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains, on the hills and under every spreading tree, where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods. 3 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.

I don't think we are fighting in the Middle East over religion. We aren't bombing Saudi Arabia or Indonesia.

Somebody wants that land in the Middle East and intends to take it no matter what the religion of the native people is.

Blogger Travis Landenwitsch October 14, 2015 6:48 PM  

Sorry I couldn't respond sooner. I don't have the time to respond to everyone so I'll just try to address Mr. Wright.

It was bad form on my part to condemn your whole blog post when I was addressing just a portion, specifically the portion quoted here on the blog.

I was interested in your claims on the achievements, or lack there of, of Islam during its supposed Golden Age. Specifically that it was only certain Spanish scholars, mostly Jewish and Chrisitan, who under Islamic rule were able to preserve ancient texts and prevent their destruction. I'm wondering where you came by this information? Your evidence that the translation of Ancient works, the invention of zero, the strides made in mathematics and astronomy are all outrageous lies.
I'd like to see your sources for this so I can see how you came to your present opinion, and maybe become more informed myself.

Blogger Mint October 14, 2015 6:54 PM  

Prayer Request: Please, pray for our Christian Community in Aceh Singkil, Indonesia. They are seeking refuge to neighbour province because of security reasons. Our protest after a church in a dominantly Christian village was burnt down is met with more pressure from the rest of the area.

This is the aftermath of years after years churches were closed down by local government in Singkil, citing the churches had no permit. Whenever they burnt once church, we just built it again in the past. But this year we push back a little, but you know, we're just minority. Children and women are our priority to keep safe. They have to leave their own home, land and property for now, not knowing if they will be able to come back to the village.

Blogger Subversive Saint #249 October 14, 2015 6:54 PM  

Well put.

Blogger Cataline Sergius October 14, 2015 7:06 PM  

One reason for the myth of the Golden Age of Islam is that first impressions are lasting ones.

When the Crusade völkerwanderung ended up in the Holy Lands. The crusaders and pilgrims that followed them ended up doing what most garrisoned troops do.

Absorbed some of the local culture. You can spot the Arabic influence in various things. The tunic was dropped in favor of the coate harde for example. Courtly love was introduced into Europe. And if you know what to look for there were strong influences on European music and poetry.

None of this is particularly surprising. More sophisticated cultures always impress the younger men of less sophisticated cultures. Frankly our frankish ancestors like what they saw because it was new to them.

As for Arabic contributions to science and medicine. Well that one is a little hard to say.

The Abbasid Caliphate did do a lot to collect ancient greek and hindu writing, However, my own experience with Arab culture leads me to believe that Arab philosophers didn't expand on the works significantly.

It just isn't done in their culture. Someone who is innovative, is clearly going to be trouble and is dealt with accordingly. They have their strengths, Arabs can blow most cultures out of the water when it comes to rote memorization. But if someone can easily get new ideas, they can get bad ideas. The first nail to pop up is the first one to get nailed down.

Kublai Khan gets blamed for the destruction of the Golden Age but Chinese culture did all right under the Great Khans. Why did the Arabs have so much trouble?

Blogger Dystopic October 14, 2015 7:06 PM  

Read the book I recommend to you earlier. That explains and sources JCW's claims.

Blogger Travis Landenwitsch October 14, 2015 7:18 PM  

Dystopic,

Just saw your post. I will read your recommendation, and I thank you for it.

Blogger automatthew October 14, 2015 7:20 PM  

Dystopic recommended Emmett Scott's Mohammed and Charlemagne Revisited

Seconded.

Blogger automatthew October 14, 2015 7:21 PM  

luagha: To add to all of this, remember Robert Spencer's 'Did Muhammad Exist' book.

Seconded, again.

Blogger automatthew October 14, 2015 7:22 PM  

Travis, have you ever considered NOT coming in swinging like a drunken asshole? You'd have less to walk back.

Blogger Travis Landenwitsch October 14, 2015 7:28 PM  

automatthew,

You have a point. I have on occasion gone back and read what I wrote on various threads here that causes such reactions, and release usually the problem resulted from poor communication on my end. It is easy to forget how must added meaning can be lost if you can't see or hear someone, and instead only have what is written to go off of.

Blogger The Other Robot October 14, 2015 7:46 PM  

I thought it was well known that the concept of zero has been around for a long time (and long predates Islam) and that the Muslims adopted the digits we currently use from the Hindus. Also, that the CoE and perhaps the Protestants were fond of calling it the Hindu-Arabic number system, or even Arabic numbers because of their break with Rome.

Blogger The Other Robot October 14, 2015 7:49 PM  

Your evidence that the translation of Ancient works, the invention of zero, the strides made in mathematics and astronomy are all outrageous lies.

I seem to remember some German of the last century saying something about big lies.

Blogger David The Good October 14, 2015 7:58 PM  

@Travis Landenwitsch

Good for you for recognizing your failure to communicate. I have done the same. It is good for me to remember that there are folks here significantly more intelligent than I am, or at least much better educated on some topics. If you've ever read much of John C. Wright's work, you'll realize he is stunningly well-read. I'd happily debate him on composting, grafting or nitrogen-fixing legumes if the topics ever came up; however, I sit quietly and listen when he talks about history or science... then go dig around later if I'm interested.

Blogger The Other Robot October 14, 2015 7:58 PM  

@72:

And then there is The Hidden Origins of Islam: New Research into Its Early History by Karl-Heinz Ohlig, not to mention Emmet Scott's subsequent books.

Blogger Kentucky Packrat October 14, 2015 7:58 PM  

@58 : To sum it up (and these facts are well known and wikipedia-able) there are only three historical references to a religious Muhammad-like figure within the hundred years after his supposed life and death, and those three are pretty vague.

Unfortunately, a new Koran manuscript that is within Muhammed's lifetime or his companions has arisen. As much as I would like the old blasphemer to not really exist, I don't think we can argue that he existed. (The validity of parts or all of the Hadith, now THAT is a different story I'd happily go for.)

What's also clear is that the old blasphemer had no clue what was actually in either the Old Testament or the New. He thought that Jesus' mother was Moses' sister... His associates were heretics who didn't know scripture, and the moment he encountered scriptural Christians and Jews, they laughed at him.

Blogger The Other Robot October 14, 2015 8:09 PM  

Unfortunately, a new Koran manuscript that is within Muhammed's lifetime or his companions has arisen.

Really? Other sources seem to indicate that it was transmitted by word-of-mouth until after his death ...

Pictures or it doesn't exist!

Blogger The Other Robot October 14, 2015 8:13 PM  

Why am I not surprised that it is the British who claim to have two parchment leaves from around the time Mohammed is said to have lived.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied and disbelieve everything that has been officially confirmed.

Blogger The Other Robot October 14, 2015 8:15 PM  

According to tests results, there's a strong probability the animal from which the parchment was made was alive during the lifetime of prophet Mohammad or shortly afterward, Thomas said.

All bow down before the memory of the Holy Sheep!

Blogger Jim Milo October 14, 2015 8:16 PM  

@54 Interesting, but it looks like my area might be too humid for it to work. (There's always the brook, or sawdust insulated ice that Granny used.) But looking at the SJWPedia article, under the Impact subhed:

increased opportunities for women

Yes, feminist edit-a-thon participants, that's the first thing that comes to mind when looking at the quick history of HVAC.

Blogger The Other Robot October 14, 2015 8:29 PM  

Why would they use parchment instead of papyrus? I though that the use of parchment was only required after the Muslims disrupted trade in the Mediterranean.

Blogger Dystopic October 14, 2015 8:41 PM  

@81

It's worth noting that parchment was expensive in those days, and was often reused. So I am cautious when they use the date of the parchment to authenticate or date a text. One of the Saudi scholars considers this likely for the text in question, due to stylistic differences.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/23/world/europe/quran-fragments-university-birmingham.html?_r=0

Blogger Zimri October 14, 2015 8:44 PM  

The first caliphs by erasing the old Roman / Persian border aided in the flow of knowledge between Iraq and Alexandria. Medical knowledge, mainly: Masarjawayh brought over Ahrun's works to Iraq and translated them into Arabic.

Certain of the 'Abbasids, those of the Mutazila anyway (Harun al-Rashid, al-Ma'mun, etc), translated everything they could find lying around. They also supported original research of their own, especially in mathematics and astronomy.

This is before we even get into Umawi caliph al-Hakam's library at Qurṭuba.

There's certainly an argument that Islam's internal logic forced the end of the Mutazila, the closing of the doors of ijtihad, and "the closing of the Muslim mind". There's an argument that the contributions of Islamic scholars to world knowledge was done despite their faith.

- but that argument isn't the argument with Wright has made. He should make THAT argument instead of the (poorly sourced) arguments quoted here.

Blogger The Other Robot October 14, 2015 8:46 PM  

Yes, that is a more cogent objection to their simplistic dating euphoria.

Blogger Zimri October 14, 2015 8:47 PM  

Robot: Papyrus was more perishable, especially in humid climates, like Iraq, the Gulf Coast, and Oman. The parchment noted here might have originated in one of those eastern regions.

Wood-pulp paper by the way came to the West by way of that same direction (from China).

OpenID Steve October 14, 2015 8:50 PM  

How did we miss GRRM's role playing game?

"Last week, an RPG book went up for sale on OBS called “Tournament of Rapists.” The name was obviously intentionally meant to be controversial.

Read more: http://www.everyjoe.com/2015/09/08/politics/is-censorship-something-only-government-can-do/#ixzz3oaqGmbYL

Blogger James Dixon October 14, 2015 8:55 PM  

> Does Wright have any sources to back up anything he wrote? Otherwise it reads like shoddy scholarship, and comes across as purely subjective.

We're not going to do your research for you, Travis.

> There is allegedly a very tiny mosque on the grounds or in the building, because it's forbidden to eliminate a mosque and Islamics are morally ingenious about getting around such restrictions.

Well, Tom, then it's technically still a mosque.

> The American public was unaware of the 1948 Arab Israeli War, Suez Crisis, Six Day War, Yom Kippur War, ....

The folks that I know? Yes.

> ...and the Oil Embargo?

The oil embargo was during Carter's administration, was it not?

> Only if we used nukes.

I have no problem with that.

> Otherwise...did y'all not learn anything from the last fifteen years?

That our leaders don't have to gut to kill them all and let Allah sort them out?

> Just to clarify, I'm referring to the 1973 embargo.

That was the Carter administration, Josh. Exactly as John said.

> US/NATO drops 50 tons of arms and ammo to "moderate" dumbocracy loving terrorists just recently.

But those seem people argue for "reasonable" gun control here. Hmm. one would think they weren't being consistent with their principles or had an ulterior motive, wouldn't one?

Blogger Krul October 14, 2015 8:58 PM  

@54 Steve - "After I told a friend about how to make a evaporative cooling pot that was described on my tour of ancient Pompeii to a friend that was worried about his insulin staying cool in the summer if there was another blackout, he looked it up online and told me I was wrong a moslem invented it. I looked at the webpage and the moslem invented zeer pots 5 years after I had taken the tour of Pompeii. He probably invented a clock as well."

Interesting. Years ago I read that the soldiers of ancient Greece carried their water in jars of unbaked clay so that evaporation would keep the water cool. I can't find it now... I want to say it was in something about the Peloponnesian War...

Blogger Ostar October 14, 2015 9:00 PM  

Winston Churchill:
"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.... Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world."

Found in the original 1889 version of his book The River War (about the Sudan War he fought in), but not in the more common 1902 abridged version.

Blogger Zimri October 14, 2015 9:01 PM  

Wright has backed up some of his statements in this thread.

I still want him to retract his statement "This is all an outrageous lie, the precise opposite of the truth". I say there is a lie here - the lie has been told by John C. Wright, who will not accept al-Khwarizmi and will not acknowledge al-Biruni.

Blogger James Dixon October 14, 2015 9:05 PM  

Actually, my memory is doing worse than usual, and I'm wrong above. 73-74 would have been the Nixon-Ford era. Carter was elected in 76. I have no idea why I'm misremembering dates so much recently, but it's obvious I need to start double checking before posting. I apologize to Josh and anyone I mislead.

Blogger Were-Puppy October 14, 2015 9:07 PM  

Anyone read

Birth of the Middle Ages
by H. St. L. B. Moss

Blogger Josh October 14, 2015 9:08 PM  

That was the Carter administration, Josh. Exactly as John said.

Carter was inaugurated in 1977.

Blogger Josh October 14, 2015 9:10 PM  

I apologize to Josh and anyone I mislead.

No worries, it happens to all of us.

Blogger Were-Puppy October 14, 2015 9:11 PM  

If you think this is all happening because of the US or Nato, you really need to do some more studying. Read some of these books being referenced. These people have been doing this crap since the middle ages. It's very short sighted to blame the US or NATO for what is happening now.

Blogger tweell October 14, 2015 9:17 PM  

I would note that so-called Arabic numerals and zero were originally invented in India and copied by Muslims, who claimed the mathematics for their own.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_mathematics

Blogger Were-Puppy October 14, 2015 9:18 PM  

@91 Krul
@54 Steve - "After I told a friend about how to make a evaporative cooling pot that was described on my tour of ancient Pompeii to a friend that was worried about his insulin staying cool in the summer if there was another blackout, he looked it up online and told me I was wrong a moslem invented it. I looked at the webpage and the moslem invented zeer pots 5 years after I had taken the tour of Pompeii. He probably invented a clock as well."

Interesting. Years ago I read that the soldiers of ancient Greece carried their water in jars of unbaked clay so that evaporation would keep the water cool. I can't find it now... I want to say it was in something about the Peloponnesian War...
---

I've actually read that somewhere too. Probably in "A War Like No Other".

Blogger Sheila4g October 14, 2015 9:31 PM  

As far as the myth of the moderate mohammedan, I read a comment the other day which I thought put it quite well: The radical muslims want to kill all infidels; the moderate muslims want the radical muslims to kill all infidels.

I also found the book God's Battalions by Rodney Stark to be quite informative. I do not know if the scholarship is up to Mr. Wright's standards, but it certainly made the same points he has.

OpenID Steve October 14, 2015 9:45 PM  

#91 #100 Here is the moslem invention claim. Of course I don't have a video of my tour of Pompeii from 5 years before it was invented.
http://solarcooking.wikia.com/wiki/Pot-in-pot_cooler

He supposedly invented it based on a swamp cooler but ancient Rome had evaporative air conditioning in the nicer villas. I searched for a few min but couldn't even find anything other than how they made ice. Maybe there was a time traveling moslem.

"The Romans would put water into a pit that was well-insulated with straw. The pit would be covered with highly polished shields during the day, to reflect the heat of the sun, while at night the pit would be uncovered so that the water within could lose the maximum thermal energy. Ice often began forming in the evening, and would typically be ready for harvesting by 3 or 4 a.m. Once harvested, the ice would be taken to the nearest icehouse for storage. " http://www.everything2.com/title/Making+Ice+In+Ancient+Rome

I also found a reference to a roman geothermal heat pump/cooler I didn't know about before but nothing about evaporative coolers but I know I had a published comment on survialblog with a link to the ancient roman evaporative coolers but I cant even find that.
http://www.i4at.org/surv/aircond.htm
-bgs

Blogger paradox October 14, 2015 9:52 PM  

@50 Bluntobj Winz

You do know there are multiple, as you call it, free shit armies. The U.S. military and the bankers are two others.

Blogger Phillip George October 14, 2015 9:53 PM  

:In God We Trust" - unfortunately this just isn't specific enough.

We can't exactly apply a test of facial characteristics or retinal scan, so you have to disambiguate a god from the God with actual acts of God as the starter. Very specific ones.

All the house of shit that Islam is rides on Muhammad's claim Jesus didn't die on a Cross or rise from the dead. The five pillars and everything else is window dressing.

All the mother fucker moral relativists [I mean that in the nicest possible way], cultural relativist, historical revisionists, proxy war pawns, non absolutist totalitarians, might wish to amend their claims at some point in the near future.

Blogger Zimri October 14, 2015 9:58 PM  

All the house of shit that Islam is rides on Muhammad's claim Jesus didn't die on a Cross or rise from the dead. The five pillars and everything else is window dressing.
This is possibly, even probably true. Gabriel Said Reynolds has done fine work in explicating the Qur'an as being, at base, a heretical commentary on the (Syriac) Christian Bible.

Blogger rrm1 October 14, 2015 10:12 PM  

Rodney Stark is a prodigiously productive scholar who is somewhat of a gadfly in the scientific study of religion community. He is used to being attacked. I would not worry on whether or not his standards approach those of Mr. Wright's.

Blogger Noah B #120 October 14, 2015 10:13 PM  

The US Constitution was written for a Christian nation, which the left consistently insists that we are not.

Blogger ncartist October 14, 2015 10:30 PM  

@11.

Does Wright have any sources to back up anything he wrote? Otherwise it reads like shoddy scholarship, and comes across as purely subjective.

Yes. He has most likely been reading this: Mohammed and Charlemagne by Henri Perinne

Blogger Kaz October 14, 2015 10:48 PM  

107. Blogger Noah B #120 October 14, 2015 10:13 PM
The US Constitution was written for a Christian nation, which the left consistently insists that we are not.

If the Constitution was written for a Christian nation were the Articles of Confederation inherently less Christian, perhaps even Satanic???

Blogger bob k. mando October 14, 2015 10:56 PM  

2. Troy Lee Messer October 14, 2015 3:18 PM
Do they ever unify to fight the west




don't be childish. of course they unify to fight the west. they've been doing that for a thousand years.

Shia Iran doesn't care that it was Sunni Saudi funding that brought down the twin towers, they'll dance in the streets all the same.

one only has to look at our pet muslim, Tommy Hass. he's quite happy to shit on Arabs as being nearly sub-human.

BUT

have there be a conflict between an Arab Muslim and a Westerner or Christian ... and see which side he chooses.

regardless of how long the Muslim has been abusing his opponent.



17. Josh October 14, 2015 3:56 PM
Does Mr Wright not consider Fox News to be part of the press?


Fox news spends significant time pointing out how many people the 'religion of peace' murders?

i wouldn't know, i don't watch the dumb shits.



27. Josh October 14, 2015 4:22 PM
Otherwise...did y'all not learn anything from the last fifteen years?



i learned that hands-free, minimal manpower, almost zero footprint warfare doesn't accomplish much.

without a major mobilization AND rules of engagement similar to those employed by the British Empire or Black Jack Pershing, no, we likely wouldn't accomplish anything via conventional arms.

but then, we don't really need too.

take the oil fields from them and what would they do?



42. Curtis October 14, 2015 5:20 PM
And seriously, does anyone think for a nano-second our meddling in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Lebanon, Iran, etc., and Ukraine is really about dumbocracy and purple fingers?



you're seriously asking if i think that the foreign policy decisions of a man named Barack Hussein Obama resulting the wholesale murder of Christians and the extinguishing multiple ancient Churches is an accident?

this is a rhetorical question, yes?

i've already pointed out on multiple occasions that i suspect that Obama was deadly serious when he told Medvedev to let Putin know that he ( Obama ) would have much more freedom to act after his re-election.



64. LES October 14, 2015 6:44 PM
I don't think we are fighting in the Middle East over religion. We aren't bombing Saudi Arabia or Indonesia.



that's something some of us crazier right wing nut jobs have been pointing out since Bush went to Afghan / Iraq.

IF you believe that almost every single 9-11 hijacker and most of the funding was Saudi in origin ...

as Bush claimed

THEN why the fuck are we not bombing the House of Saud?

oh, yeah, because Bush spends all of his off time sucking Saudi cock.

https://www.google.com/search?q=president+bush+saudi+prince&biw=1131&bih=710&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAmoVChMI987OwbfDyAIVS6yACh1QMQ_8


65. Travis Landenwitsch October 14, 2015 6:48 PM
the invention of zero



even Wiki can figure out that the current use of the abstract concept of 'zero' goes back to India BEFORE CHRIST.

if not 1500 BC Egypt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0_%28number%29#Egypt


frankly, asserting that the Muslims 'invented' zero is as historically stupid as asserting that everyone but Columbus thought the earth was flat.



66. Mint October 14, 2015 6:54 PM
They have to leave their own home, land and property for now, not knowing if they will be able to come back to the village.


one hopes not, but things may get much worse. some are called to a crown of martyrdom.

will pray for you.



90. James Dixon October 14, 2015 8:55 PM
> Just to clarify, I'm referring to the 1973 embargo.
That was the Carter administration, Josh.



NO.

73 was before Nixon resigned.

Carter was 77-81.

you missed Ford altogether. i'll not hold that against you, though. most people would like to forget Ford.

Blogger Were-Puppy October 14, 2015 11:03 PM  

I was just a kid, but i remember him falling down some airplane steps.

Blogger The Other Robot October 14, 2015 11:08 PM  

The Christian Origins of Islam

Blogger Danby October 14, 2015 11:09 PM  

@109 Spaz
If the Constitution was written for a Christian nation were the Articles of Confederation inherently less Christian, perhaps even Satanic???
English, do you speak it motherfucker?
One orgaizational document being written for the needs of a Christian nation does not mean that it is
1) the best possible such organization or
2) the only possible such organization

What it means is that its principles, shortcomings, loopholes, methods and compromises are intended for people of a certain character, their strengths and weaknesses, and especially what they will consider legitimate and cooperate with.
Just as tyrannical despotism is the natural state of Islamic societies, Plutocracy the natural state of Paganism, Monarchy the natural state of Catholicism, Representative Democracy is the natural state of what used to be mainline Protestantism.

Blogger The Other Robot October 14, 2015 11:16 PM  

Meanwhile, Muslim Asylum Seekers sue Germany for not paying benefits fast enough.

OpenID Steve October 14, 2015 11:21 PM  

JCW if anyone still calls you a homophobe ask them to tweet condemnation of this. I wonder if mainstream media would have covered it if it was a republican?
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/13/report-rep-sander-levin-aide-arrested-beating-lover-shovel/

"An aide to Rep. Sander Levin (D-MI) was arrested in Baltimore last week for allegedly beating his male lover with a shovel, CQ Roll Call reports.

CQ Roll Call, which obtained the police report, details allegations that Levin staffer
Tim Foster beat an unnamed, 39 year old black man, identified as Foster’s boyfriend, with a small black and red shovel just after midnight on Oct. 8. The beating left the victim hospitalized with wounds to his upper back, neck and torso.

Foster put his boyfriend in a choke hold and stated, “I want to kill you. Die dirty faggy,” the man later told police."

Blogger bob k. mando October 14, 2015 11:22 PM  

114. The Other Robot October 14, 2015 11:16 PM
Meanwhile, Muslim Asylum Seekers sue Germany for not paying benefits fast enough.



i suggest that they send Frau Merkel ... as preliminary jizya.

Blogger Jew613 October 14, 2015 11:28 PM  

Jaime, Persians were traditionally a pretty decent group who were heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism. But since 1979 and the Islamic Revolution they have been much more devout Muslims and by extension much more violent.

Blogger Kaz October 14, 2015 11:29 PM  

113. Blogger Danby

Take your meds and reconsider your response.

Blogger Were-Puppy October 14, 2015 11:31 PM  

@114 The Other Robot

"They are effectively homeless with the country's bitter winter just around the corner - and night-time temperatures have already fallen below freezing."

Did you see this in the article? I bet its nice and warm wherever the hell they came from. Sending them back is a humanitarian effort.

Blogger BunE22 October 14, 2015 11:33 PM  

I saw this article today: https://euobserver.com/political/130672

"A pro-refugee event at Warsaw University attracted some 1,000 people.

But a rival protest in the city centre was five times bigger, with people chanting “Fuck the EU” and with one protester calling Muslim refugees a “Trojan pig”. The Gdansk rally saw people chant: “We will do to you [refugees] what Hitler did to the Jews”, The Economist, a British weekly reported."

Interesting times.

Blogger Phillip George October 14, 2015 11:37 PM  

It doesn't really matter if they are Arabic numbers, we used them to build cruise missiles first, nah nah nah nah nah, and that's what counts.
Two: Arabic Numbers are, in and of themselves a bad idea; we should be using a base twelve system rather than base ten. With a duodecimal system we might have had the neutron bomb in time for Hiroshima and definitely would have been able to plant micro nukes in the WTC towers and Bali and Donetsk etc. And look what an improvement that would have been.

Jesus only.

Blogger Noah B #120 October 14, 2015 11:38 PM  

"If the Constitution was written for a Christian nation were the Articles of Confederation inherently less Christian, perhaps even Satanic???"

This is about as nonsequent as it gets.

Blogger David-093 October 14, 2015 11:46 PM  

@Kaz

"If the Constitution was written for a Christian nation were the Articles of Confederation inherently less Christian, perhaps even Satanic???"

Congratulations on winning "Autist of the Year". Your award's in the mail.

Blogger Kaz October 14, 2015 11:49 PM  

Noah B #120 October 14, 2015 11:38 PM
"If the Constitution was written for a Christian nation were the Articles of Confederation inherently less Christian, perhaps even Satanic???"

This is about as nonsequent as it gets.

Non-sequent? It is a hard question that is never faced clearly by those who defend the theory of the Christian origins of the Constitution.

Blogger Dragon fang October 15, 2015 12:04 AM  

Oh snap. Edgy historian revisionist presenting fringe hypothesis as if it is the consensus with no evidence or citation! I mean check out this evil anti-Christian counter-fear-mongering propaganda!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wisdom

That mixed in with even fringer claims like "The Phantom Time Hypothesis".


Do you seriously find credibility in these guys? Slow down on the confirmation bias and present logic or evidence.




What's also clear is that the old blasphemer had no clue what was actually in either the Old Testament or the New. He thought that Jesus' mother was Moses' sister... His associates were heretics who didn't know scripture, and the moment he encountered scriptural Christians and Jews, they laughed at him.

Disagreed as using "Sister of Aaron" could easily be figure of speech.


38 He called out, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!” -Luke 18:38

59 So they sent their sister Rebekah on her way, along with her nurse and Abraham’s servant and his men. 60 And they blessed Rebekah and said to her,

“Our sister, may you increase
to thousands upon thousands;
may your offspring possess
the cities of their enemies.”



Although if you do have knowledge of the Quran share it.

Blogger The Other Robot October 15, 2015 12:20 AM  

Oh snap. Edgy historian revisionist presenting fringe hypothesis as if it is the consensus with no evidence or citation!

I am reminded that at one time Alfred Wegener's little theory was not the consensus either.

Blogger Desiderius October 15, 2015 12:26 AM  

John Wright,

"by the 14th century, no contributions were made from any land in the Dar-el-Islam"

The advances in question took place primarily (or nearly exclusively) in the 9th-11th Century. The decline of learning and achievement in late Islam is not in question. That late Islam has now lasted nearly a millennium is not in its favor.

"There's certainly an argument that Islam's internal logic forced the end of the Mutazila, the closing of the doors of ijtihad, and "the closing of the Muslim mind". There's an argument that the contributions of Islamic scholars to world knowledge was done despite their faith.

- but that argument isn't the argument with Wright has made. He should make THAT argument instead of the (poorly sourced) arguments quoted here."

I'm with Zimri.

Blogger Geir Balderson October 15, 2015 12:37 AM  

"I thought it was well known that the concept of zero has been around for a long time..."

I was sure Obama said HE had invented it! The zero of emptiness is in his campaign logo and in his governing style.

Thank you gentlemen and ladies for the enlightenment.

Blogger Danby October 15, 2015 1:17 AM  

@Spaz
The reason your question "is never faced clearly by those who defend the theory of the Christian origins of the Constitution" is because it's nonsensical. It doesn't follow in either language, logic or rhetoric. It doesn't even make sense.
Here's is an equivalent question:
"This suit is made to fit a man with broad shoulders"
"AHA! Does that mean that not other suit could possibly fit? Does it?!?! WHAT ABOUT SWEATERS!!! Can only women WEAR SWEATERS!?!?!?!?It's a hard question that is never faced clearly by those who defend the theory of the suit having broad shoulders!"

Blogger Unknown October 15, 2015 1:38 AM  

If you look at the late Roman Empire with today's eyes, you will see a nasty and dysfunctional slave-owning military dictatorship whose fall is welcome confirmation that some forms of evil bring their own punishment. They had vast slave run farms which were not productive enough to generate the wealth that could have helped defend them against invaders, or even to maintain their own population in some areas. They had cities packed with poor which were rife with epidemic disease, meaning that they could not recruit a competitive citizen army. They had public office forced on leading citizens without pay and expenses, causing these citizens to dodge said offices, or act corruptly.

Any civilization worthy of the name should be maintaining a technological edge, rearing healthy citizens, and making the money to pay for armaments. If it cannot defend itself against ignorant barbarians, it is about to find out that capital punishment is the penalty for stupidity.

Blogger rho October 15, 2015 1:45 AM  

As I recall Astronomy 101, the reason we have so many Arabic names for stars is because the source materials were Arabic, and those source materials were a combination of translations from Greek and Indian sources, and Arab records.

The history of Man is a history of conquest. Islam conquered quite a lot of the known world, and thereby became custodians of the knowledge they acquired. That any factual information escaped such a martial culture is pretty interesting.

I would give Islam a "C" for passing along information it either discovered or stole to the following generations. (Maybe a "C-", because all the astronomy work was likely done only because they needed to know exactly when to kneel towards Mecca.)

Book learnin' is all well and good, but it's hardly the only metric to judge cultures. Do a little research into maritime traditions, and you'll find a world of competing data.

Blogger John Wright October 15, 2015 2:23 AM  

""There's certainly an argument that Islam's internal logic forced the end of the Mutazila, the closing of the doors of ijtihad, and "the closing of the Muslim mind". There's an argument that the contributions of Islamic scholars to world knowledge was done despite their faith."

How, praytell, is that not the argument I made? The only difference here is in emphasis: I point out that the Islamic scholars were Spanish, and, I should have added, Persian, which were Christian and Zoroastrian countries conquered by Islam, where the ruling Islamic population was in the minority. That is why I said "mostly." I am not claiming there were no Islamic scholar whatsoever. I am saying their contributions were modest, and were not the prime source of the preservation of ancient texts, but instead Byzantium was.

I do not see how this is being called poorly sourced when the two criticism here against this point are made by two people who agree with the point?

Is the destruction of ancient manuscripts by the Moslems simply not known? I will point at Persia as an example:

When the Arab commander Vaghas faced the huge library of Ctesiphon, he wrote to Omar: what should be done about the books. Omar wrote back “If the books contradict the Koran, they are blasphemous and on the other hand if they are in agreement with the text of Koran, then they are not needed, as for us only Koran is sufficient”. Thus, the huge library was destroyed and the books or the product of the generations of Persian scientists and scholars were burned in fire or thrown into the Euphrates. (Gergie Zeidan, History of Islamic Civilization, 3rd volume p 42-47; Persian translation of Kashf el Zonoun- Eben-e Khaldoun, by Haj Khalifeh, preface.)

By the order of another Arab ruler in Khwarezmia, those who were literate with all the historians, writers and Mobeds were massacred and their books burned so that after one generation the people were illiterate. (Abu Rayhan Birouni, Athar el Baghieh)

Other libraries in Ray and Khorassan received the same treatment and the famous international University of Gondishapour declined and eventually abandoned, and its library and books vanished. Ibn-e Khaldoun, the famous Islamic historian, summarizes the whole annihilation and conflagration:” where is the Persian science that Omar ordered to be destroyed?” Only few books survived, because the Persian scholars translated them into Arabic.

Many Iranians at this era had been Arabized and picked up Arabic names. The new Moslems were no less hostile toward their old religion than the Arabs. Now the Arabic was considered a scientific language, the knowledge of which would place one in higher class among the scholars. That is why many scientific books at this era were written in Arabic and mistakenly those scholars and scientists have been assumed to be Arabs. The loss of identity had caused some Iranians to become alien to their own nationality. An Iranian premier (Sahib ibn-e Obbad) did not look in the mirror lest would see a Persian. Another ruler of Khorassan (Abdollah ibn-e Tahir) would not acknowledge any language but the Arabic. He banned publications in Persian and by his order all the Zoroastrians were forced to bring their religious books to be thrown in the fire. Those who refused were slain.

A similar thing happened in Spain.

Perhaps it would have been an easier argument to point out that the closing of the Islamic mind after Algazel's publication of the Incoherence of Philosophers could not have closed the Islamic mind unless something in Islam was decidedly prone to such closure, something that had been there from the beginning, such as a condemnation of all books (the Bible and Torah, etc) from which Mohammed stole all his ideas, but which he condemned as corrupt.

Blogger rho October 15, 2015 2:39 AM  

I am not claiming there were no Islamic scholar whatsoever. I am saying their contributions were modest, and were not the prime source of the preservation of ancient texts, but instead Byzantium was.

You have no doubt heard that there was a Golden Age of Islam, where Muslim scholars preserved the works of Aristotle and the ancients, invented the zero, or made great strides in astronomy and mathematics. This is all an outrageous lie, the precise opposite of the truth. There were certain Spanish scholars, mostly Jews and Christians, conquered by Muslims, but who preserved the ancient texts despite the Muslim program of destroying them.

Blogger Desiderius October 15, 2015 2:57 AM  

"A similar thing happened in Spain."

Likewise with the Mughals in India.

Blogger Robert What? October 15, 2015 4:19 AM  

A very important thing to know is: what is so compelling about Islam that makes so many adherents so motivated to conquer, destroy, rape, pillage, etc? Is it strictly the 72-Virgins thing? Is it giving license to people who were already psychopathic?

Blogger ScuzzaMan October 15, 2015 4:56 AM  

"The US Constitution was written for a Christian nation,"

Written to GOVERN a christian people. That doesnt, ipso facto, make it a christian document.

The whole point of your quoted statement is that its efficacy lies in the submission of the people to its claims. But that is true of any political system.

Blogger Sherwood family October 15, 2015 5:04 AM  

While I appreciate Mr. Wright's careful chronicling of Islamic depredations, I believe that the argument related to Algazal (al-Ghazali) overstates the case a bit. He is correct that al-Ghazali argues the absolute and direct involvement of God in all phenomena and rules out secondary causes. What I disagree with is the assertion that al-Ghazali's view vanquished that of other Muslims who disagreed. There was a lively debate in the Islamic world about it and Ibn Rush (Averroes) critiqued him for his conclusions. Three hundred years later in the 1400's Mehmed II (Ottoman Sultan and conqueror of Constantinople) is said to have ordered scholars to summarize the arguments for and against al-Ghazali and Ibn Rushd. This indicates that the view was still disputed and a question on the minds of the learned or educated population. There is no doubt that scientific achievement stagnated in Islamic lands after the time of the Abbasids and that many of the contributors during the period were from conquered peoples. However, it is important to note that other peoples likewise did not produce copious scientific advancements and that the scientific revolution in Europe that proceeded from the intellectual bases laid down in the Middle Ages and then augmented after that is a singular phenomenon and one that has no historical analogue. The Islamic world, is therefore much like the rest of the world including China and the Subcontinent, when it comes to scientific achievements. That it failed to advance systematically like European science did is not necessarily something that can be argued as a failure of Islam as much as a failure of civilizations in general with the exception of Christendom in the early modern period.

Blogger graaaaaagh October 15, 2015 6:32 AM  

John Wright is largely correct, but like many other critics of Islam, he leaves something out. There's a tendency to talk of ancient knowledge as if it had just happened to have been largely lost in the confusion of Rome's decline, and thanks to those diligent Byzantine and Catholic scholars we have some of it left.

But the fact is that the very same destruction which you rightly attribute to Muslims was also done by Christians. Our largest (and still incomplete) copy of Cicero's work on politics, De re publica, is a palimpsest: it was sponged out of the pages to make room for yet another copy of Augustine's commentaries on the Psalms. The philosopher Porphyry had a fifteen-volume set called Against the Christians—and we only have what was copied from it in Christian responses, because Theodosius II ordered the burning of every copy he could get his hands on. And the list goes on and on. Not to mention the thousands of temples, groves, altars, statues, and images that were destroyed.

It's also worth noting that many of the scholars preserving ancient knowledge in the Islamic world were not Muslims, Christians, or Jews, but pagans. Thabit ibn Qurra was proud to be from Harran, which had never fallen to "the error of Nazareth", even into the Middle Ages.

Blogger James Oakes October 15, 2015 8:07 AM  

Mr Wright's heart may be in the right place, but his summary is way too uncharitable.

Within twenty-five years after the death of Mohammed, the southern and eastern reaches of the Byzantine Empire, all Christian lands, and all fertile, were reduced by terror and sword to a wasteland.

No they weren't they remained richer and supporting denser populations than any region in Western Europe.

Besides, Islamization was a long drawn-out process. The areas conquered in the seventh and eighth centuries did not become majority-Muslim until the beginning of the second millenium. Palestine may have been majority-Christian when the Crusaders got there. Culture was Islamicized well before the people converted to Islam.

The destruction of the Stone Buddha statues in Afghanistan, or the famous museum in Babylon, was not a mistake or the act of some odd extremists: it is a central part of mainstream Sharia.

This is just ridiculous. Egypt has been Muslim for a millenium and a half and plenty of Ancient Egyptian buildings and artifacts are standing. There are Roman and Greek ruins all over from Tunisia to Turkey. If razing the past were "a central part of mainstream Sharia", this couldn't possibly be true.

Of course there have been rigorist moviments at several moments in various parts of the Muslim zone, including in our own time. The confuse this with a central pillar of the religion is disingenuous. The Christian Emperor Theodosius closed down the Academy of Athens on grounds of its Paganism: should we then conclude that "Christianity" was an enemy of ancient learning too?

Christian churches and relics are destroyed whenever they fall into Mohammedan hands

This is also ridiculous. There are plenty of churches in Egypt and Lebanon, and there were also in Syria. Monasteries also, in some of whom were found some of the oldest manuscripts of the Scriptures that we possess. (Google "St. Catherine's Monastery", it's in Egypt, built in the sixth century, and still at work).

Blogger James Oakes October 15, 2015 8:07 AM  

to this day, the Church of Saint Sophia in Constantinople is used as a mosque, in triumphant mockery of the defeated Christians.

This is untrue. I've been there, and stood on the designated place where the Byzantine emperors were crowned. St Sophia is a museum, and has been so for several decades. The paintings and artwork depicting the life of the Lord are well maintained, as is the building itself.

Yes, St Sophia was used as a mosque for several centuries, and today there are some Arabic inscriptions attesting to that fact, side by side with the Christian artwork. Why wouldn't it? The Cathedral of Córdoba in Spain was originally the central mosque of the Western Umayyad caliphate, rechristened after Córdoba's fall. It is used as a church to this day. Is it only unfair when the Muslims do it?

You have no doubt heard that there was a Golden Age of Islam [...].. This is all an outrageous lie, the precise opposite of the truth.

The achievements of Early Medieval Islam are certainly much exaggerated today for reasons of political correctness. However, Mr Wright is falling for the opposite exaggeration. Thus Muslim world did make many advancements in knowledge and technique that eventually were adopted in the West (through Iberia or the Crusades). Don't take my word for it: read the Medieval Westerners. Read the chronicles of the Crusaders. They were perfectly aware that they had much to learn from the Islamic world of that period, and they did do so.

Besides, in the first half of the first millenium, the Islamic world was the only civilization to be simultaneously in direct contact with every other civilization in the Old World, from China to Western Europe, including even Black Africa. This fact alone was bound to give them an edge. And it did.

There were certain Spanish scholars, mostly Jews and Christians, conquered by Muslims, but who preserved the ancient texts despite the Muslim program of destroying them.

Flatly untrue. Most of the translations were made in Mesopotamia (not in Spain), under an official program ordered by the early Abbasid rulers. Yes, as far as we can tell, because information on this is very uncertain, it's very likely that most of the translators were Jews, Christians, or first-generation converts to Islam. That's a bit obvious if you think about it: who else would speek both Greek and Arabic? (Or Iranian and Arabic: don't forget the early Arab conquests also included the ancient Persian civilization).

Blogger James Oakes October 15, 2015 8:07 AM  

The Byzantine Empire preserved what we have of ancient learning, and scholars fleeing the downfall of one Byzantine theme, province, or city after another in the relentless onslaught of Mohammed reintroduced them into the West.

That's true in general, but the Byzantine route was less relevant than the Muslim one until the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. Not many Byzantine refugees to the West before that time, and there were plenty of moments when relations between Western and Byzantine Christians were worse than between Western Christians and Moslems.

The Moslems not only were not the preservers of the knowledge of the ancient literature, they were the main force destroying it.

I would agree that the Muslims did not set out to preserve the "knowledge of the ancient literature". Nor did the early Christians, though. Both preserved what they thought interesting or useful, in sometimes straightforward, sometimes idiosyncratic ways. Many other works were preserved by sheer luck on one side or the other of the Mediterranean.

The Islamic civilization had a decent enough start if you consider it was created within a generation by mostly-illiterate nomads dwelling on one of the most unforgiving enviroments of the planet. That they managed to assimilate half of Byzantium and Persia, instead of being assimilated themselves, is already notable. It went off-rails in the Late Middle Ages and hasn't budged much ever since. I would blame Al-Ghazali's disastrous philosophy for steering philosophical thought way from the concept of an orderly universe, the Turkish and Mongol invasions (both of which spared the West), and the effects of the Black Death (much different in the East, including Orthodox Eastern Europe, than in the West).

You can plug your favorite HBD talking points here as well: population turnover, massive imports of slaves, etc. With this dimension off-limits, however, it's difficult to establish how much the population of the Islamic world then resembled the population now.

Blogger JaimeInTexas October 15, 2015 8:20 AM  

RE. Articles of Confederation.
A much more Christian document than the Constitution of These uSA of 1787.
There is a reason that Patrick Henry is barely mentioned in history. "I smelt a rat" was his response to the constitutional convention. The delegates to the Constitutional Convention violated their oaths of office and wrote a new constitution rather than modify/amend the Articles.

Blogger JaimeInTexas October 15, 2015 8:24 AM  

@117 Jew613
It seems to me that nationalism has more to do with their violence -- 25 years of SAVAK after their government was overthrown by foreign governments.

Blogger JaimeInTexas October 15, 2015 8:28 AM  

@132 John Wright
@137 Sherwood family
@138 graaaaaagh
@139 James Oakes


Is there enough of a difference in Arabic versus non-Arabic Muslim rule to make a distinction?

Blogger James Oakes October 15, 2015 8:44 AM  

@144

I would say it depends a lot on the specific period. Very hard to make a general assessment aspiring to universal validity. I certainly am not qualified to offer an opinion on that.

Keep in mind that the "Arab" identity ended up assimilating the vast numbers of subject peoples, who adopted the Islamic religion and the Arabic language. (Iran was the odd man out, their old civilization proved strong enough to resist full assimilation). So even the term "Arab" has a different meaning depending on the time period you're considering...

Blogger ncartist October 15, 2015 8:46 AM  

@142. JaimeInTexas October 15, 2015 8:20 AM

Unfortunately, this is true.

Most people do not realize that there were five presidents under the Articles before the Constitution.

My question is: how is it the States allowed the conspirators even bring the document to a referendum?

Blogger Josh October 15, 2015 8:51 AM  

Is there enough of a difference in Arabic versus non-Arabic Muslim rule to make a distinction?

Yes

Blogger Mindstorm October 15, 2015 9:14 AM  

Hmmm....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world

Blogger Desiderius October 15, 2015 9:15 AM  

"Yes"

May well be a distinction without much of a difference over the course of time, which I believe to ultimately be Wright's point.

Blogger John Wright October 15, 2015 9:40 AM  

"I would agree that the Muslims did not set out to preserve the "knowledge of the ancient literature". Nor did the early Christians, though."

The Early Christians were citizens and subjects of the Roman Empire, and a despised minority, often outlawed, inside a civilization perfectly capable of preserving its own literature. After Constantine, there were no mass library burnings. History records the only books burned by Roman Christians were other Christians, that is, heretical works burned as a civic penalty after a legal process.

Compare that to the mass destruction of all the written works of the Persians under the Mohammedan rule, or the entire wiping out of literature in North Africa as all the ancient libraries of one quarter of the civilized world were destroyed.

There is no comparison to be made. Your bland assertion of some sort of equivalent between a peaceful and civilized conversion of pagan Romans to Christianity and the brutal enormities of Islamic conquest and destruction is beyond absurd, sir.

These things were not done in a closet. Even history books friendly to Islam will record the same events. It is not a secret.

Blogger Dystopic October 15, 2015 9:41 AM  

Mr. Wright is right on the money.

The Islamic Golden Age is a myth. There was a last flowering of Persian and Byzantine/Roman cultures in the conquered regions, and then they were gone forever. By the tenth century, the old cultures in the Muslim world had been more or less annihilated and/or subjugated.

Meanwhile, they disrupted trade in the Mediterranean with rampant piracy, destroyed ancient cities, leveled irrigation works, destroyed knowledge and generally made a mess of things wherever they went. There was a profound retreat, even in the Christian cities, to hillforts and strongholds. Urban culture rapidly declined.

Take Carthage, for instance. When the Romans captured it, they supposedly leveled the place. Yet, within a few years, it was the capital of the Roman province and had largely recovered. Carthage even survived the Vandals and the Byzantine reconquest. But when the Muslims took the city in 698, it never recovered and is now merely a collection of ruins.

North Africa had once been the bread basket of the Roman Empire, with great irrigation works and massive farming enterprises. Now it's just desert, mostly. The Muslims couldn't even keep the old Roman world functioning, much less create one of their own.

This was repeated in places like Ctesiphon. Now, they did not destroy all monuments, or all knowledge. Egypt still retains a great many monuments, as someone else pointed out. And they did retain some of the ancient Greek and Persian texts. But the general trend in Islam has always been the destruction of knowledge which did not conform to religious thought.

Periodically, some Muslim scholars (most notably, Avicenna) attempted to reconcile the ancient world with the Islamic one, but these efforts generally failed. Islam has been slowly backsliding ever since its founding.

Periodically, they would conquer other cultures, and there would be a temporary reversal, such as when the Ottomans conquered Byzantium. But then, invariably, its intellectual decline would recommence. Islam is not compatible with high civilization. It slowly consumes the capital of its host, and winds it down.

Meanwhile, ISIS continues the long Islamic tradition of knowledge suppression and historical destruction.

Blogger John Wright October 15, 2015 9:45 AM  

Please note that this sentence;

"Flatly untrue. Most of the translations were made in Mesopotamia (not in Spain), under an official program ordered by the early Abbasid rulers."

Is directly contradicted by this sentence:

"Yes, as far as we can tell, because information on this is very uncertain, it's very likely that most of the translators were Jews, Christians, or first-generation converts to Islam. "

You seem to be arguing with the idea that none of the translator of ancient works were Islamic, which is not what I said. I said that they were a conquering minority, and that the scholarly community in those areas was, for the majority, Christian (in Spain) and Zoroastrian (in Persia). This is not a statement you dispute: you confirm it.

I admit my original comment was ambiguously worded. I was talking about the numbers among the populations, and it sounded as if I was talking about the numbers of the scholars.

But the point still remains: why do we call the preservation of ancient texts a 'Golden Age' when the only thing the texts had to be preserved against was the warfare, destruction and genocides brought on by the Mohammedans themselves?

Blogger JaimeInTexas October 15, 2015 9:46 AM  

@149 No distinction/difference in time between Muslim Egypt, Turkey, Persia/Iran?
In my experience, it is Sunni(Wahhabbi,Salafist) that are the missionary Islam. The couple or three Muslims who have told me that Muslims are also Christians, because they also consider "Jesus" (the name they did use) a prophet, were of the Sunni category. All those Islamic schools and Mosques built around the world are financed and established by Sunnis, I think. Do Shiites do the same?

Blogger JaimeInTexas October 15, 2015 9:50 AM  

To revise and expand:

No distinction/difference in time between Muslim Egypt, Turkey, Persia/Iran, Saudia Arabia and her controlled or heavily influenced territories?

Blogger The Other Robot October 15, 2015 9:52 AM  

Hmmm....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world


Is it a surprise that someone credulously (or should I say stupidly) refers to a web site well known for being full of propaganda?

Blogger The Other Robot October 15, 2015 9:56 AM  

James Oakes the SJW (or perhaps just a moderate) dishonestly says:

Yes, St Sophia was used as a mosque for several centuries, and today there are some Arabic inscriptions attesting to that fact, side by side with the Christian artwork. Why wouldn't it? The Cathedral of Córdoba in Spain was originally the central mosque of the Western Umayyad caliphate, rechristened after Córdoba's fall. It is used as a church to this day. Is it only unfair when the Muslims do it?

You have ignored the fact that Spain was a Christian region until conquered by the Muslims and that that Mosque was the site of a Church before it became a Mosque.

Is it only wrong when Christians take back what was once theirs?

Blogger bob k. mando October 15, 2015 10:05 AM  

153. JaimeInTexas October 15, 2015 9:46 AM
Do Shiites do the same?



Shi'a probably would, but they don't have near as much oil money as the Sunni. Shi'a are NO MORE than 20% of muslims worldwide and are the majority only Iran and, possibly, Iraq. almost all Shi'a live in one of four nations, India and Pakistan in addition to Iran / Iraq.

you'll notice that most madrassas are planted by Saudi money ...

Blogger bob k. mando October 15, 2015 10:07 AM  

156. The Other Robot October 15, 2015 9:56 AM
Is it only wrong when Christians take back what was once theirs?



well, obviously.

can't you see that you aren't showing sufficient cultural respect for the homicidal, slaving maniacs?

Blogger Josh October 15, 2015 10:25 AM  

Is it a surprise that someone credulously (or should I say stupidly) refers to a web site well known for being full of propaganda?

DISQUALIFY?

Blogger The Other Robot October 15, 2015 10:34 AM  

DISQUALIFY?

When you link to Wikipedia on a non-technical subject you automatically disqualify yourself.

Blogger Anthony VanWagner October 15, 2015 10:38 AM  

Desiderius is right you know. Check out the star charting that the Muslims accomplished due to their navigation efforts.

Blogger The Other Robot October 15, 2015 10:58 AM  

Desiderius is right you know. Check out the star charting that the Muslims accomplished due to their navigation efforts.

Ha ha ha ... and of course they sailed around the world and discovered that the planets had elliptical orbits and the theory of gravity ... oh, and they were able to compute conjunctions and eclipses with unprecedented accuracy for the Chinese emperors.

Blogger Dystopic October 15, 2015 11:38 AM  

oh, and they were able to compute conjunctions and eclipses with unprecedented accuracy for the Chinese emperors.

Why, they had starships in the 11th century! They navigated the cosmos! And then those pesky, privileged White Christian Male Crusaders just came along and took it all away.

Blogger Cail Corishev October 15, 2015 11:39 AM  

After Constantine, there were no mass library burnings. History records the only books burned by Roman Christians were other Christians, that is, heretical works burned as a civic penalty after a legal process.

Yes, it's interesting that, when the Church first acquired copies of the Talmud and the Koran, rather than have them destroyed, she had them copied. Preserving the evidence, as it were.

Blogger Cail Corishev October 15, 2015 11:43 AM  

When you link to Wikipedia on a non-technical subject you automatically disqualify yourself.

The Talk page is amusing, though. It's funny to watch relatively sane SJWs carefully try to correct the insane SJWs without engaging in feebad. Apparently some guy put on the page that Muslims had invented rocketry and other ridiculous claims, but they can't just say it's ridiculous and delete it; they have to dance around it by saying things like he didn't back it enough with enough properly cited evidence.

Blogger Brad Andrews October 15, 2015 11:46 AM  

It seems like some of the current "destroy things" attitude could be that they now feel they have sufficient majorities in the population to get away with it. That is likely why many ancient Christian groups in the Middle East are being exterminating now but not before.

Blogger Tom Kratman October 15, 2015 12:06 PM  

No, James, it's not\; it's a museum that has a tiny mosque in it. This is a case of "all As are Bs, some Bs are Ca..." Or do you think having a chapel in a hospital or airport makes the hospital or airport a chapel?

Blogger Anthony VanWagner October 15, 2015 12:23 PM  

" Al-Sufi was a conscientious observer of the fixed stars. In his day, the definitive guidebook for study of the stars was many centuries old: the Almagest, compiled by Ptolemy in about 150 ce. The Almagest was Ptolemy's greatest mathematical and astronomical work, and it had a major influence on Islamic and European science for more than a millennium. In 903, al-Sufi published the first-ever critical revision of Ptolemy's star catalogue. He corrected erroneous observations and added others not recorded by the Greek master astronomer. Al-Sufi's treatise on star cartography, or uranography, was called The Book of Constellations of the Fixed Stars (Kitab Suwar al-Kawakib al-Thabita) and became a classic of Islamic astronomy."

As an alumn of the Hebrew University at Mount Scopus, I have my own problems with Islam. Their star charts - yes, star charts, google it - are not one of them.

Blogger Durandel Almiras October 15, 2015 12:24 PM  

Good to see someone like JC Wright writing on this. I'd love to see a larger work that explorers, expands, and cites the evidence so that it can be spread far and wide. The propaganda that it is a religion of peace is merely a lie so that they can infiltrate before executing their attack, as they have done before.

Blogger Anthony VanWagner October 15, 2015 12:32 PM  

And yes, about 52% of the star names during the Muslim conquests are Arabic originals, not renamed over previous discoveries. Some of this does come from their pagan ancestors, however. Militant culture does not negate observational prowess.

Blogger Anonymous Robot October 15, 2015 12:38 PM  

I figure that this is how it went.

Muslims invaded Christian and Persian areas with smart people who continued working on what they were previously working.

A century or so later the Muslims got around to noticing un-Muslim pursuits and glorification of the artifacts of the religions they had conquered, so they put a stop to that.

Centuries later Muslims and Muslim apologists then claim that the Christians and Persians who did work that might reflect well on Islam were actually Muslims.

It's the sort of dishonesty we should expect from Muslims and Muslim apologists.

Blogger Dystopic October 15, 2015 12:48 PM  

@169 Good to see someone like JC Wright writing on this. I'd love to see a larger work that explorers, expands, and cites the evidence so that it can be spread far and wide. The propaganda that it is a religion of peace is merely a lie so that they can infiltrate before executing their attack, as they have done before.

That book has already been written. For the third time, I will reiterate: Emmet Scott's Mohammed and Charlemagne Revisited.

@170 And yes, about 52% of the star names during the Muslim conquests are Arabic originals, not renamed over previous discoveries. Some of this does come from their pagan ancestors, however. Militant culture does not negate observational prowess.

What's your point? Al-Sufi was a Persian. This is consistent with the theory that Islam conquered and slowly ran down the pre-existing Greco-Roman and Persian civilizations. You acknowledge the contributions of this man, and that is good and well, but would a member of ISIS, or even the theocrats running modern day Persia, do the same? Doubtful.

Blogger Tom Kratman October 15, 2015 1:18 PM  

THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOMS AND OUR PICKUP TRUCKS AND OUR GIANT AMERICAN PENISES.

No, Josh, they hate us for our military prowess when compared to their own general ineptitude. They hate us for our economic clout. They hate us because we are not them. But the real biggie, the emotional issue their current war with us is about, is mostly the position of women, on their own two feet or on their knees or all fours, "to receive."

And, if they win, we'll have this consolation; hundreds of thousands of modern western feminists on the auction block, to learn just what's wrong with morally castrating your own males.

Blogger Dystopic October 15, 2015 1:48 PM  

Damnit, Tom, stop making me root for the other side.

Blogger Dragon fang October 15, 2015 2:43 PM  

@John Wright
Plagiarism aside, lets analyze your arguments and sources:


How, praytell, is that not the argument I made?

I am not sure what your point is. Are you claiming that many Muslim scholars are not actually Muslims, or that Muslim scholars were a tiny minority compared to scholars of other faiths?


Is the destruction of ancient manuscripts by the Moslems simply not known[]

Actually, it is not.


As Butler pointed out, there are many objections to accepting this tradition. The story first appears more than 500 years after the Arab conquest of Alexandria. John the Grammarian appears to be the Alexandrian philosopher John Philoponus, who must have been dead by the time of the conquest. It seems, as shown above, that both the Alexandrian libraries were destroyed by the end of the fourth century, and there is no mention of any library surviving at Alexandria in the Christian literature of the centuries following this date. It is also suspicious that the caliph Omar is recorded to have made the same remark about books found by the Arabs during their conquest of Iran. In short, the story is at best a testimony to the persistence of legends about the library long after it had in fact dissappeared.

https://books.google.ae/books?id=TT8BAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA74#v=onepage&q&f=false

Both stories are connected and historically weak, and one is definitely completely fictitious (apparently to cover up Christian book burning) which casts deep doubts on the legitimacy of the other.
Furthermore, what library do you talk of? The library of Alexandria's existence is established from 3rd century BC to the 4th century CE with powerful historical establishment, but a large national library is not mentioned and have no archaeological evidence of its existence?


By the order of another Arab ruler in Khwarezmia[]

Al- Birouni was narrating a theory (about 400 years after the alleged event) for change in Khwarizmi language not stating a fact. He even states "Allah knows best" at the end.

The Sassanian empire excluded education to princes, nobility, Zoroastrian clergy, and administrative secretaries (Although the Gondishapour recruited Greek, Byzantines, Indians, and Chinese). Most peasants were illiterate, so there is plenty of room for internal change in language.

Furthermore, even if we assume that was what happened, it is a singular incident in a Ummayad dynasty notorious for corruption and is probably a response to repeated rebellion not hatred of books. In contrast, look at how a just Muslim leader dealt with Samarkand.


https://books.google.ae/books?id=DAp8zdHAm74C&pg=PA37#v=onepage&q&f=false


Other libraries in Ray and Khorassan received the same treatment and the famous international University of Gondishapour declined and eventually abandoned, and its library and books vanished. Ibn-e Khaldoun

Sources?

University of Gondishapour was undamaged and remained flourishing for two centuries, however the establishment of the House of Wisdom in Baghdad served as a rival, and due to factors such as Baghdad being a trade center, Gondishapour's position as the primary intellectual center started to decline.

Interesting how books can be translated 200 years later.
Ibn Khaldun said "It has been said"; in other words he is narrating hear-say of the dubious story hundreds of years later than the alleged event.


A similar thing happened in Spain.

Although I am tired of atrocious methodology, I want you to clarify that.


Perhaps it would have been an easier argument to point [].

Haha, by refuting materialism, explaining and criticizing different metaphysical positions, and pioneering methodical doubt and skepticism closed the Muslim mind? What? The Ash'ari's who pioneered the scientific method must have been really close minded!

Can you explain the condemnation of books? A Muslim would call you question begging, can you prove that ideas were stolen?

Blogger Anonymous Robot October 15, 2015 3:17 PM  

The Ash'ari's who pioneered the scientific method must have been really close minded!

Ahhh, more dubious claims about who pioneered the scientific method. Do you also push the nonsense that the Arabs came up with gunpowder?

Blogger haus frau October 15, 2015 3:23 PM  

Very off topic..but I have a prayer request on behalf of a non-Christian friend who's husband asked for a divorce out of the blue. She is a good person. I don't know the husband well. I pray for the marriage and their salvation.

Blogger CM October 15, 2015 4:23 PM  

I have a [paltry] minor in History with a focus on Ancient Western Civ from a crappy school.

So reading this exchange has me very confused by how little I know... probably because I really only needed 3 courses and Middle Eastern studies wasn't offered.

That said, my limited knowledge had me aware of Persian accomplishments in charting the skies, destruction of artifacts by Islamic armies (kinda like what they are doing now), and that an ITALIAN is the father of the Scientific Method.

My education sucked.

Blogger Desiderius October 15, 2015 7:25 PM  

"Desiderius is right you know."

The only claim I have made is Zimri's: that the argument Wright has decided he'd rather make is more defensible than the one he originally made. I'm unconcerned with how he got there. Pro-Islam propaganda needs refuting, by as many voices as possible and with arguments readily defensible from attack, rhetorical and dialectic.

Blogger Dragon fang October 15, 2015 9:11 PM  

Ahhh, more dubious claims about who pioneered the scientific method. Do you also push the nonsense that the Arabs came up with gunpowder?

Whats is it to you? Whether I push that Arabs came up with gunpowder has nothing to do with your point! *Dramatic glare*
I hate you! *runs away and Slams Door*
*leaves house*


I mean you'll be hard pressed to demonstrate that Ashar'i (even though I believe it is non-sense philosophically) polymaths like Ibn Haytham, Ibn al-Nafis, or Al-Biruni didn't do anything resembling science.

Blogger The Other Robot October 15, 2015 9:49 PM  

It is amusing to see people retroactively claiming that what some people did around 1.000 years ago now qualifies as the scientific method.

One might as well try to claim that Anaximander was the first scientist!

Blogger bob k. mando October 15, 2015 11:42 PM  

175. Dragon fang October 15, 2015 2:43 PM
The Ash'ari's who pioneered the scientific method must have been really close minded!

180. Dragon fang October 15, 2015 9:11 PM
I mean you'll be hard pressed to demonstrate that Ashar'i (even though I believe it is non-sense philosophically) polymaths like Ibn Haytham, Ibn al-Nafis, or Al-Biruni didn't do anything resembling science.



a - this is known as "moving the goalposts". quite amusing when your primary complaint about Wright is that he's being sloppy. had YOU not been sloppy, you wouldn't now be trying to reset your argument WITHOUT admitting that you fucked up.

b - define "science". Sagan ( yes, i know, the deGrasse Tyson of his day ) claims that the Greeks were doing experimental science +500 BC, or more than a thousand years before Mohammed was kicking sand.

therefore, Islam didn't have an Allah-damned thing to do with "pioneering" "science".

Blogger Beau October 16, 2015 3:29 AM  

Heavenly Father,

We lift up our brothers and sisters in Aceh Singkil, Indonesia. Give them wisdom, courage and strength to face their trials; deliver them from the evil one we ask in Jesus' name.

We bring before your throne haus frau's friends. Use this crucible to remove the dross of sin from their marriage. Reconcile them, save them, grant them the knowledge of new life in Christ. Heal their marriage for your glory. Thank you Lord Jesus. Amen.

OpenID ymarsakar October 16, 2015 7:55 PM  

Burning of the Library of Alexandria.

Some Golden Age they left us.

Indian numerals, not Arabic numerals.

Persian mathematics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qpy0mXg8Y

@135

It's a religion, so it regulates guilt. Guilt can make people do a lot of things in order to atone for it. It's a very powerful emotion, but not popularized as much as vengeance, rage, love, etc.

OpenID ymarsakar October 16, 2015 8:03 PM  

When a city is razed, ruins are left. That's generally what happened to the people in war, and populations can dip or be replaced, as happened in North Africa, Carthage, Tunisia, etc.

But the reason why those ruins still exist today, is because Islam wiped out the people and took them as slaves, to the point where the population depopulated. In Rome, civilization went on and off again for many many centuries, and the ruins don't exist because people used the stones to build more stuff. That didn't leave much in terms of old Roman structures left, except some really big ones or things too dangerous to dismantle. So the ruins exist in North Africa because Islam took away all the people as slaves, so there weren't anybody left to take the stones apart to rebuild.

That's how you "conquer" a territory. People who have never used Genghis Khan tactics or slave raiding tactics, cannot possible imagine how useful it can be or how it was used in the past.

As for the seven churches destroyed in Anatolia by Islam, that was done because those churches were higher than a mosque at the time. So they had to go. The reason why churches exist in Turkey today, is because they are built UnderGround. Or at least a few feet in set below the entrance. So that they never ever get higher than a Mosque.

The Hagia Sophia was a mosque and now Islamic Turkish secular leaders consider it a museum, is mostly a whim. If it was a Church, they would have had to destroy it, and they didn't want to, so they made it into a Mosque.

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