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Wednesday, October 14, 2015

An apology is a confession

Lest you needed another reminder of why you NEVER APOLOGIZE for anything after being attacked by SJWs.
A new dispute has erupted over the fate of Sir Tim Hunt, the Nobel prizewinner accused of making sexist remarks at an international conference earlier this year. Sir Colin Blakemore, one of Britain’s leading scientists, has resigned as honorary president of the country’s science writers association over its support for the journalist whose reports led to Hunt’s dismissal.

Blakemore said he had been frustrated by the decision of the Association of British Science Writers (ABSW) to continue to give unconditional support to Connie St Louis, who first claimed Hunt had made sexist remarks.

Subsequent evidence has since suggested that St Louis’s account was “unbalanced, exaggerated, and selective”, Blakemore told the Observer.

“Yet the ABSW refuses to investigate the issue, despite the fact that its standing orders explicitly state that ‘wilful or frequent misrepresentation or inaccuracy’ shall be considered a breach of its standards,” he said.

“Given the very serious consequences of St Louis’s reports, and the ABSW’s refusal to act, I have decided to resign. I have been honorary president of the association for 11 years but feel that I have no alternative.”

However, Martin Ince, the president of the ABSW, rejected the idea that the association had a role to play in assuring journalistic standards. “Our statement simply supports her right to report a story without fear of personal attack. We note that Sir Tim Hunt has acknowledged the accuracy of St Louis’s reporting and has apologised for his remarks,” he said.
Notice how Hunt's apology wasn't only used against him, it is being used as a defense against Connie St. Louis's misbehavior which long predates the actions for which he apologized. And it's also being used against those who are willing to take public stands and make personal sacrifices in support of Hunt.

When you apologize to an SJW, you are not only handing them ammunition that will be used against you, it will be used against your friends, family, and allies in support of your most vicious enemies.

Never apologize in response to SJWs. Is that not clear? NEVER PUBLICLY APOLOGIZE, period.

Labels:

83 Comments:

Blogger Nate October 14, 2015 8:09 AM  

Everything you say in your apology can, and will, be used against you... and against anyone who supports you.

This should be branded into people's minds.

Blogger clk October 14, 2015 8:18 AM  

OT ... since the new security measures it seems the number of posts have fallen off significantly ... I wonder how much the site statistics have gone down as well ... has to be some hit there too...

It really seems a bit too sane arround here lately... half the fun was reading the cranks and their crazy ideas....

Blogger Phillip George October 14, 2015 8:25 AM  

this whole thing surprises me. Is there one living breathing individual who, post East Anglia Climate Gate, cedes to any living scientists anymore more credibility than that of say, a Pakistan or India call center telephone sales 'person'.
Since Colin Powell's WMD address to the UN, and weapons inspector David Kelly bloodless cuts, one suspects, science to be something on par with Mao's cultural revolution, and Pol Pot's re-invigoration of agrarian economies. This ain't the 1662 Royal Society. Infact I'm loath to invoke even that generation's memory.

Blogger Cail Corishev October 14, 2015 8:26 AM  

It's also an example of how the Codes and other mechanisms they create are only ever used in one direction. When the wrong kind of person tries to appeal to their rules, the response is simply, "Huh? What? Was someone talking?" Or simply: "Screw you."

Blogger Josh October 14, 2015 8:33 AM  

It's Who? Whom? all the way down.

Blogger McChuck October 14, 2015 8:36 AM  

Deny, deny, counter-accuse, stand on you rights, shut up.
Criminal defense - I didn't do it. I didn't do nuffin. I think you did it, and you're just trying to set me up. I want my lawyer.
Socail defense - I didn't do that. In fact, nothing like that even happened. You just made the whole thing up. Have you remembered to take your meds today? No, as a matter of fact I don't care about your opinions.

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery October 14, 2015 8:41 AM  

I am a fan of the smirking non-apology though.

Blogger Dave October 14, 2015 8:49 AM  

Good for Sir Blakemore; more should follow his lead. What is an association after all without associates.

Blogger Hammerli280 October 14, 2015 8:49 AM  

I'm more of a traditionalist. You're offended? Find a second, issue a challenge. I'll not refuse the satisfaction customary among gentlemen.

Blogger VFM 188 October 14, 2015 8:52 AM  

If anything good can possibly come out of this ugly, vicious, sordid affair, and the wrong done to Sir Timothy Hunt, it is the reminder that you NEVER APOLOGIZE to an SJW. The SJW witch was empowered by the unfortunate, unneeded, and unnecessary apology, which is now being used also by the bland, lying, bureaucratic asshole, Martin Ince.

OpenID bc64a9f8-765e-11e3-8683-000bcdcb2996 October 14, 2015 9:00 AM  

However, Martin Ince, the president of the ABSW, rejected the idea that the association had a role to play in assuring journalistic standards. “Our statement simply supports her right to report a story without fear of personal attack.

Now THERE'S the money quote.
Red flag, yellow card,....aaaaaand Black Flag!
CaptDMO

Blogger Salt October 14, 2015 9:21 AM  

When you say something an SJW points and shrieks about, demanding an apology... do what should be done. Say it again!

Blogger VFM #0202 October 14, 2015 9:26 AM  

This may be the single sharpest arrow in the quiver. Who would have thought you of all people would be beloved of Artemis?

It's readily understandable, speaks to self-preservation, and is not overtly racist sexist or homophobic. It is capable of deeply penetrating the moist.. no forget moist.. ranks of the fence-sitters.

And it leads such horrors as "Excuse me, I couldn't help notice that you're Pointing and Shrieking at me.. are you feeling all right?". In that kindly, heaping-coals-of-fire tone most suited to Black Knighting.

Blogger Mindstorm October 14, 2015 9:32 AM  

What about perfunctory "I'm sorry that you felt triggered (the subtext: not really sorry)"?

Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 14, 2015 9:39 AM  

Never grant them any authority

Blogger 334 October 14, 2015 9:45 AM  

About 15 years ago, I stopped saying sorry unless the problem was personal and I was genuinely guilty. The world did not end. Then I realized just how many times I had apologized disingenuously and reflexively simply out of fear of being disliked or to defuse an uncomfortable situation. When you make a habit out of apologizing simply because offence has been taken, you cede the moral high ground, drain the perception of integrity from your own arguments and set yourself up for an endless cycle of future apologizing.

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery October 14, 2015 9:56 AM  

Mindstorm - the only "apologies" you should offer SJW's are of the deliberately insulting non-apology type.

Why? I'll tell you for why: it drives them mental.

"I'm sorry you're too stupid to understand my point."

"I'm sorry you're too bigoted to tolerate other points of view."

"I'm sorry your parents were blood relatives."

"I'm sorry you're fat."

But Vox and Mr. Mantraman are correct. An actual apology should never, ever, ever, ever-ever be proffered to a SJW.

Saying "sorry" - even with an asterisk - to a SJW is like handing a loaded revolver to a drunken chimpanzee. Except not as funny.

Blogger The Original Hermit October 14, 2015 10:05 AM  

"Saying "sorry" - even with an asterisk - to a SJW is like handing a loaded revolver to a drunken chimpanzee. Except not as funny."

So a weak non-apology, like the one we got from Irene Gallo, while not being an actual confession would still make one seem weak. Whereas an insulting anti-apology, would reframe it to your own benefit.

Blogger 334 October 14, 2015 10:22 AM  

@18.

Gallo was stuck. That apology was transparently a command performance. She had been told to stand down, so she took the hit like a good soldier. There was no remorse whatsoever in that non-apology.

Which brings up a good question: What if your employer demands you apologize as an condition of ongoing employment?

Blogger VD October 14, 2015 10:26 AM  

since the new security measures it seems the number of posts have fallen off significantly ... I wonder how much the site statistics have gone down as well ... has to be some hit there too...

The number of posts hasn't fallen off at all. The number of comments has decreased by about 33 percent. The site statistics have decreased 3 percent, which is well within the usual fluctuation.

As is often the case with commenters, you appear to harbor the mistaken impression that that people primarily come here to a) comment or b) read comments. Most people come here to read the posts.

It really seems a bit too sane arround here lately.

Feature, not bug.

Blogger Dystopic October 14, 2015 10:32 AM  

Most people come here to read the posts.

Certainly the case for me. I read almost every post on here, but only come out of lurking when the mood strikes me.

At least you're not pulling a Scalzi and saying "traffic is up 1000% and I got 5 million pageviews!"

Blogger Brad Andrews October 14, 2015 10:33 AM  

He was confusing your posts with replies. You have been as prolific as ever VD, perhaps more, except for the several hour break you took when you traveled to the GamerGate meetup.

Blogger VD October 14, 2015 10:34 AM  

What about perfunctory "I'm sorry that you felt triggered (the subtext: not really sorry)"?

What part of "never apologize" are you finding it difficult to understand. Seriously, WTF is wrong with you people.

DO NOT FUCKING APOLOGIZE. Not perfunctorily. Not smirkingly. You are going to screw it up somehow. Do not let the words "sorry" or "apologize" leave your mouth in public.

Newsweek asked me if I wanted to apologize for making the Nazi romance critic feel bad. I said that unless I had urinated on her corpse or [something even less printable involving her eye sockets], she had nothing to complain about. There was a long pause, and he said, "yeah, I can't use that. Let's move on."

Once they realize they won't EVER be getting an apology, the pressure dissipates.

Blogger 334 October 14, 2015 10:39 AM  

Most people come here to read the posts.

I did nothing but read the posts here for 7 years. Never occurred to me to read the comments of others, let alone comment myself, here or anywhere else. If it were not for my brother's insistence that the comments at VP are frequently brilliant and always amusing, I would never have bothered. Even now, if I'm super busy, I'll read posts-only for a day or two. The comments are great but secondary.

Blogger VD October 14, 2015 10:41 AM  

What if your employer demands you apologize as an condition of ongoing employment?

Depends. If you are mission-critical or don't need the job, say no and dare him to fire you. If you need the job, apologize, then start looking elsewhere for work.

Blogger ncartist October 14, 2015 10:41 AM  

Which brings up a good question: What if your employer demands you apologize as an condition of ongoing employment?

Good question. Depends on character: I left a job because the person above me was a liar: there were only the two of us in the arts organization; I had held her job previously and had left it, had recommended her, and was later asked back to help out: she lied on a action which I knew to be permissible. That ended any further advancement in art gallery management.

Right now, I am faced with working with a friend of forty years who I have discovered to be a narcissist: in the last flareup, I refused to back down. I am trusting in God to allow me to prosper in another direction.

Blogger Dystopic October 14, 2015 10:48 AM  

Probably a dumb question, but is it wise to apologize publicly to people who are not SJWs if you have actually done a wrong?

Blogger Chris Ritchie October 14, 2015 10:54 AM  

I come here for the posts, but I stay for the comments.

Back on topic, a black acquaintance of mine tried to say that he regarded the confederate flag as akin to ISIS. I not only called him on it right there, I doubled-down by sending a follow up email about the history of slavery. No apology given. The word "sorry" didn't enter the conversation.

I don't imagine he's a good networking contact anymore though.

Blogger Daniel October 14, 2015 10:54 AM  

No. Normal people don't need or even ask for a public apology.

Need a public apology? Then you are an SJW.

Blogger Dystopic October 14, 2015 10:58 AM  

@29

Good point.

Blogger Kentucky Packrat October 14, 2015 11:05 AM  

Probably a dumb question, but is it wise to apologize publicly to people who are not SJWs if you have actually done a wrong?

If you made a real mistake, you definitely apologize for it. Jesus says to even pause offering a sacrifice to God to make peace with a person when you are in the wrong. Don't over-apologize or cower, but acknowledge wrongs done. In that case, you take your lumps and move on.

I have to agree with Daniel. Christian men (and women) bring up slights in private and apologize in private. Public statements of any sort are done only when they can't be avoided (associate minister gets arrested, etc.) and no drama should be added to the scenario.

A Jimmy Swaggart that has to cry and wail publicly is just as much an SJW thing as a HR person demanding an apology for a made-up trigger phrase.

Blogger VFM 188 October 14, 2015 11:07 AM  

I read the postings, but find the comments fascinating and read them assiduously on subjects of personal interest.

Blogger VD October 14, 2015 11:09 AM  

Probably a dumb question, but is it wise to apologize publicly to people who are not SJWs if you have actually done a wrong?

No. Repentance should never be a performance. If you've wronged someone, make it right in private.

Blogger VFM 188 October 14, 2015 11:10 AM  

Okay, let's all agree now on what occasions and under what circumstances we should apologize to SJW's? Anyone? Anyone?

Blogger Dave October 14, 2015 11:11 AM  

The number of posts hasn't fallen off at all.

The number has grown significantly; apparently sleep deprivation is no detriment to the Supreme Dark Lord.

Blogger Steve, the Dark Ninja of Mockery October 14, 2015 11:12 AM  

Vox - DO NOT FUCKING APOLOGIZE. Not perfunctorily. Not smirkingly. You are going to screw it up somehow.

You're mean, Dread Sire.

And I'm starting to think this Evil Legion of Evil might not be the good guys. :(

I said that unless I had urinated on her corpse or [something even less printable involving her eye sockets], she had nothing to complain about.

Harsh, but fair.

Blogger Rabbi B October 14, 2015 11:17 AM  

"Once they realize they won't EVER be getting an apology, the pressure dissipates."

It's similar to agree and amplify. They have no idea where to go next because you have relieved them of one of their strongest and most effective weapons that can be wielded against you. Having said or done something wrong has no connection whatsoever with the apology they are demanding of you. Your apology serves one purpose and one purpose only: To destroy you and insure that you and those who are foolish enough to align themselves with you or your position never recover.

Soooooooo, let's hear it, all together now: NEVER APOLOGIZE to these snot-gobbling lunatics who don't give a damn about you or anyone else but themselves.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 14, 2015 11:19 AM  

"I'm sorry that you felt triggered..."

NO!

If you're not going to apologize, then don't even phrase it in the form of an apology, which can still be used against you.


The correct form is, "It's such a shame that a grown adult... you are an adult, aren't you?... that a grown adult such as yourself should be triggered by a simple observation of tangible facts about the world. Perhaps you would feel better in a safe space, such as Bellevue hospital, or some other first class residential mental health facility. Some place where you can indulge your psychosis without fear of having the bubbles burst by realists such as myself.

This isn't the first time you've indulged in this sort of crazy outburst, its it. It's a pattern in your life. You really should do something about it. There are people, who have trained for their whole life, to help people in need such as yourself. So, let's not talk about this matter any more, as I'm sure it's quite embarrassing for you and the fact that you have the emotional control typical of a 2-year old. Would you like to check yourself in, or should I call them myself?"

Blogger Tommy Hass October 14, 2015 11:21 AM  

"a Pakistan or India call center telephone sales 'person'."

Huh?

Blogger Sevron October 14, 2015 11:31 AM  

I was briefly famous amongst my friends in college for having yelled at somebody "Fuck your feelings!" I also have publicly told friends that in order for something to be racist, it has to not be true. If it is true and also racist, then being racist isn't bad. I have never been asked for an apology yet. I look forward to my first time, much like a new comedian hoping for his first heckler.

Blogger Danby October 14, 2015 11:58 AM  

Even better is when you can demand an apology instead.
"You don't like my shirt? You don't like my friggin shirt?!?! I just landed a probe on a meteor! I demand an apology for your stupid and infantile attempt to denigrate my achievements on the basis of my choice of clothing!"

Blogger ScuzzaMan October 14, 2015 12:03 PM  

Sevron,

Thing is, SJWs are cowards. They pack hunt the weak. They can tell by looking at you what kind of opponent you will be.

I once tried to ride a horse past a stone statue of a lion. This particular horse had never seen a lion and given its breeding there were probably a hundred generations between it and its last ancestor to see a lion. Possibly many more. I had to whip it mercilessly to make it go forward and then could not stop it galloping between 45 degrees either sude of directly in front of the lion.

Animals made for eating, with eyes on the sides of their heads - like rabbits and deer, and horses - know what a predator looks like, without ever having to be told.

(Binocular vision, in case you were wondering)

Blogger Forrest Bishop October 14, 2015 12:10 PM  

@34. VFM 188
Okay, let's all agree now on what occasions and under what circumstances we should apologize to SJW's? Anyone? Anyone?

Cakewalk.

Dear SJW: I apologize for allowing you to exist. I'm so sorry I have let you carry on with your incessant crimes against humanity. I promise to rectify my behavior.

Blogger Sevron October 14, 2015 12:12 PM  

ScuzzaMan

I'm not much of a predator to be honest. I'm much more of the dialectically-limited sperglords Vox is beating around the head about the importance and validity of rhetoric. So appeals to emotion hold little water with me, and I don't feel any guilt or shame for saying something that's true, even if impolitic. I have been learning to appreciate rhetoric for longer than I've been reading VP, although this place has been immensely helpful.

Blogger Rabbi B October 14, 2015 12:17 PM  

"Thing is, SJWs are cowards. They pack hunt the weak. They can tell by looking at you what kind of opponent you will be.

Exactly!

Amalekites, one and all. They cannot stand the very thought that somewhere, out in this wide world of ours, someone is breathing and living in freedom.

What is out command regarding the Amalekites, a command that is even memorialized in our Jewish prayer books as part of our daily prayers?

Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and attacked all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of G-d.

When the L-rd your G-d gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!

(cf. Deut. 25 and Exodus 17)

G-d Himself declared that he would be at war with them until they were food for worms (*nods to Viidad*) and no more. Pretty good odds for us I would say. May we stay strong, fight the good fight, and never let the SJW bastards get us down! For great is our reward.

Blogger Jill October 14, 2015 12:51 PM  

Apologizing was something trained in me, like a serf is trained to serve his masters--apologizing for my very existence in the world. I've been learning not to do it. But the retaliatory effects of not apologizing aren't even remotely pleasant. If people can't extort an apology, they will take it to the next level, calling in higher authorities. I'm ready at this point to accept the unpleasantness, I guess. Actually, I already have. Screw these people. If they have to threaten me, it means they've already lost. They can do what they want--take away part of my livelihood (check), threaten police action (check), but they can't force me to apologize.

Blogger CM October 14, 2015 12:56 PM  

Forrest Bishop failed this test. The correct answer is:

NEVER.

Blogger Durandel Almiras October 14, 2015 12:56 PM  

I for one have been reading the blog everyday since spring 2008 and I do so for the mosts and some of the comments by certain Ilk who consistently add something usedul to the discussion (i.e. Stickwick, etc.). I try to avoid commenting because I usually feel like I have nothing else to add and I try to follow the rule that on average it is better to listen than to speak.

As to apologies, they only work in a society of trust and honor, the latter of which no longer exists in the West and the former is about to go too. Keep apologies private and to between the aggrieved parties.

That said, when I have committed an egregious error to a party and did so in a public manner, I apologized to that party and the witnesses present at my error, but:

1) the error was I dressed down one of my inferiors for a mistake they had been made. Turned out it was not them, so to repair said employees standing with the group, I made that apology in front of the whole group.

2) the apology was in-house, not public as in a press conference.

Apologies can be issued when all the parties involved can act in good faith and will regonize the rules that govern apologies. SJWs can't act in good faith and they will not absolve you of your supposed error, thus they never deserve an apology.

Stop thinking cultural rules are absolute. You don't apply football rules to a basketball game; especially if you want to win.

Blogger Rabbi B October 14, 2015 1:32 PM  

"I'm ready at this point to accept the unpleasantness, I guess."

Just because someone decides to take up an offense and hold you responsible does not obligate you in the least to cater to their perverted sensibilities and massage their insecurities, especially with an apology that is really only an attempt to relieve your own discomfort with being attacked. It may feel uncomfortable in the moment, but the feeling will pass and it will get easier the next time around. Just shut your mouth, resist the temptation to apologize, push through the discomfort, DON'T APOLOGIZE, and walk away with all of the confidence in your position you can. To apologize is simply dishonest.

I rarely apologize to my wife, unless I have clearly done wrong. There have been countless times when I have offended her sensibilities or she has felt offended or hurt. We'll work through whatever the issue is as husband and wife, but I will never apologize just for the sake of peace and comfort. Neither will I extend pre-emptive forgiveness to folks who have wronged me but have never admitted their wrongdoing and asked my forgiveness. Truth and honesty as much as depends on us. Two things we are not obligated to apologize for - ever.

Do we see the Messiah going around on an apology mission every time he said something that rankled and offended? Have you ever read of one of the Prophets apologizing? Did their words offend and rankle? Absolutely. Sometimes just your very presence is offensive. Are you going to start apologizing for breathing?

Blogger CM October 14, 2015 1:44 PM  

I rarely apologize to my wife, unless I have clearly done wrong.

Man... my husband DOES have game. He has never apologized. Every single time, I'm the one that apologizes.

Blogger Chris Ritchie October 14, 2015 2:19 PM  

Neither will I extend pre-emptive forgiveness to folks who have wronged me but have never admitted their wrongdoing and asked my forgiveness. Truth and honesty as much as depends on us. Two things we are not obligated to apologize for - ever.

OT - For years, churchianity has said that I need to extend forgiveness to people who never ask for it, don't know what they've done wrong, and refuse to entertain the idea that they've done anything wrong at all. I think they're wrong and I agree with you: Jesus didn't go around begging people to ask forgiveness for their sins. He almost always led the conversation with "What is it you want me to do for you?"

Since it is OT, I'd be glad to discuss outside this thread.

Blogger Were-Puppy October 14, 2015 2:33 PM  

So going forward, let this be our attitude:

I'm not sorry I took the money

Blogger Rabbi B October 14, 2015 2:37 PM  

"For years, churchianity has said that I need to extend forgiveness to people who never ask for it, don't know what they've done wrong, and refuse to entertain the idea that they've done anything wrong at all."

I don't think it's OT, but just the counterpoint to 'never apologize'. 'Never forgive' . . . preemptively and when no one has asked for your forgiveness. Stupid and dishonest. Doesn't even make sense. Fixes nothing and benefits no one, most especially the person in the wrong who has yet to admit their wrongdoing. What if I raised my kids this way? Disaster.

Now, I understand that forgoveness is available with the Messiah, who said "Forgive them, for they know not what they do. But in order to take advantage of the forgiveness that is available in the Messiah, we have to com to Him humble, admit our wrongdoings, confess that we have sinned, and ask his forgiveness.


Judaism teaches that thee is no atonement for sins I have committed against anothr humn being and failed to deal with it. I am not arguing the theological soundness of the argument, suffice it to say it serves to emphasize the importance of making every effort to deal with situations where we have clearly done wrong against another. Sins (what the Bible clearly calls sin, by the way) we have committed against one another need to be dealt with (Leave your gift at the altar and go get right with your brother etc), and until you do so, G-d will not accept your gift.

Peter asked the Messiah how many times he should extend forgiveness to another. The answer was basically as long as the person is coming to admit their wrong and ask forgiveness we are obligated to extend it. Seventy times seven and all that.

This whole preemptive, blanket, I am holier than thou, look down your proverbial nose, elevate myself above you, I am the bigger man, *forgiveness* is stupid, and counterproductive and is not forgiveness, it's called false humility and manipulation.

Blogger Were-Puppy October 14, 2015 2:37 PM  

@27 Dystopic
Probably a dumb question, but is it wise to apologize publicly to people who are not SJWs if you have actually done a wrong?
---

Why would you apologize publicly? If you've done someone wrong, then apologize to them privately.

Blogger Were-Puppy October 14, 2015 2:42 PM  

@41 Danby
Even better is when you can demand an apology instead.
"You don't like my shirt? You don't like my friggin shirt?!?! I just landed a probe on a meteor! I demand an apology for your stupid and infantile attempt to denigrate my achievements on the basis of my choice of clothing!"
---

+1

It seems so obvious now, but I guess the guy wasn't used to being broadsided out of nowhere over nothing.

Blogger Were-Puppy October 14, 2015 2:44 PM  

@43 Forrest Bishop
@34. VFM 188
Okay, let's all agree now on what occasions and under what circumstances we should apologize to SJW's? Anyone? Anyone?

Cakewalk.

Dear SJW: I apologize for allowing you to exist. I'm so sorry I have let you carry on with your incessant crimes against humanity. I promise to rectify my behavior.
---

Maybe we should resort to the old "mom" wisdom:
"If you don't shut up, I'll give you something to cry about!"

Blogger Chris Ritchie October 14, 2015 2:57 PM  

This whole preemptive, blanket, I am holier than thou, look down your proverbial nose, elevate myself above you, I am the bigger man, *forgiveness* is stupid, and counterproductive and is not forgiveness, it's called false humility and manipulation.

Thank God someone is finally saying this! It always felt wrong to me to just forgive and go on like nothing happened.
"But those people aren't even sorry!" I'd say. I always tried to argue what I just said earlier. Namely, that there can be no relationship without contrition. Otherwise, our forgiveness is taken advantage of.

I finally put my foot down and am out of relationship with a person, but that's better than being miserable and dishonest.

No one in the church though would see it that way. They've made lifetime careers by telling people to be doormats. I seethe with anger at the ill advice knowing what it has cost so many people. No one in the church ever advised me to cut off relationship. Oh no. I was the only one who could be Jesus to that person so suck it up and carry your cross. "That's just the cross God is asking you to bear," they'd say. No one ever explained that those that want forgiveness need to ask for it. They never explained that passage the way you just did.

Perhaps the source of their error was in their wrong theology? Why does the church lift up people who immediately and without reservation "forgive" the criminal who raped their daughter or killed their son?!? Is that forgiveness? Does that lead to repentance?
It's all over the media when churches just "forgive" the people who come in and shoot up the place or vandalize it:
http://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/nation/2015/08/21/32143383/
http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/9-Killed-in-Shooting-at-South-Carolina-Church-308112031.html

Cinderella even ends with her saying "I forgive you" to her wicked piece of work stepmother. As if.

I'm not thirsting for justice. I don't want people to never ask forgiveness and die in Hell. That's not what I'm asking. But requiring people to just lie down and weakly offer forgiveness seems to do no one any good. All I ask is that people own up to what they did. Otherwise, I'm not apologizing for not offering forgiveness when it was their sorry butts that did the harm in the first place!

Blogger Rabbi B October 14, 2015 3:18 PM  

"Perhaps the source of their error was in their wrong theology? Why does the church lift up people who immediately and without reservation "forgive" the criminal who raped their daughter or killed their son?!? Is that forgiveness? Does that lead to repentance?

I think there is a failure to distinguish between forgiveness and not letting a root of bitterness consume you when you are clearly wronged. If people refuse to admit their wrong and ask your forgiveness, it's not really your problem, and until they do, there is no moving forward in the relationship in any kind of a meaningful and truthful way. Until then, you simply have to move on with your life and try not to give it a second thought.

I do not believe that time heals all wounds. I think that platitude is a load of crap. If anything, time deepens the wounds.

What heals the wounds is following the directives laid out in His Word. G-d has wisely shown us the protocol for reconciliation that restores all parties to one another and to Himself It's a simple and clear directive. However, some people are too afraid and hate any kind of confrontation, avoiding it at all costs, just hoping that the situation will somehow resolve itself without any effort on anyone's part. Others love the drama and feed on the bitterness and resentment.

Either way, the result is the same, a broken and estranged relationship.

Blogger VFM 188 October 14, 2015 3:26 PM  

With reference to Matt Taylor, aka Comet Guy: It seems so obvious now, but I guess the guy wasn't used to being broadsided out of nowhere over nothing.

If only SJWAL had been published a bit sooner, and Dr. Taylor had read it.... Would have been great fun, both for him and for his fans. But now?? Who knows how many will read the book, internalize its lessons, and effectively block, smash, and defeat the scummy, cold-blooded SJW snakes when they venture future attacks? Many!

Blogger luagha October 14, 2015 3:40 PM  

How about:

"You feel hurt? That's because the truth hurts."

Blogger SciVo October 14, 2015 3:56 PM  

This is simple for a Christian: lying is a sin. Apologizing for something that you didn't do is bearing false witness against yourself.

You can recognize how your actions affected other people and take responsibility for your actions, but if you did nothing wrong, then taking responsibility for their feelings is just enabling their character flaw of getting butthurt over nothing, and you shouldn't lead your brother or sister into sin.

I recall a time when my supervisor, who was a stubborn bitch, insistently tried to get me to apologize to a co-worker over an imagined slight. Well I'm even more stubborn, and insisted that I couldn't apologize to her because it's against my religion to lie, and our feelings are less important than our immortal souls -- she'll get over it, but Hell is forever.

It ended with me threatening to go to HR for her disrespect of my religious practices, so she changed it to asking me talk to the complainant -- which I did, with basically the same results (except without the HR threat).

Just a little anecdote of one method that successfully worked at least once.

Blogger Chris Ritchie October 14, 2015 4:01 PM  

@61 - That's some quality black knighting there! I will remember to use that.

Blogger Rabbi B October 14, 2015 4:10 PM  

" . . . lying is a sin . . . and you shouldn't lead your brother or sister into sin."

Precisely.

Great anecdote, by the way.

++1

Blogger SciVo October 14, 2015 5:12 PM  

@62: That's some quality black knighting there! I will remember to use that.

Thank you! If you use it, remember that once you reframe, it is absolutely imperative that you hold frame. Never flinch. Never back down. Make them be the first to blink.

Blogger Stingray October 14, 2015 5:34 PM  

I think there is a failure to distinguish between forgiveness and not letting a root of bitterness consume you when you are clearly wronged.

I always took forgive, as this definition:

~stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake.

That we could forgive those who have wronged us but that doesn't mean we have to let them back into our lives or into a situation that would allow them to wrong us again. That is very different than when many are speaking of here. People here are talking about the kind of forgiveness where the wrong doer repents and we decide to let them back into our lives and trust them again.

Which does the bible, or rather more accurately, does the Our Father talk about. Is it made clear anywhere? This often seems to be a huge area of confusion for a lot of people.

Blogger Desiderius October 14, 2015 6:03 PM  

"Why would you apologize publicly?"

Public (corporate) confession is a crucial piece of orthodox religious practice in the Reformed tradition (a tradition that gave birth to both Mainline and Evangelical Protestantism). When done properly, and in good faith, both with one another and in Christ, it serves to both encourage the weak and to humble (in the sense of drawing attention to the proper rank of human to God) the strong sufficiently to facilitate the necessary work of repentance from sin. If one wishes to continue to benefit from this practice, one would be well-advised to do so in the traditional context: as part of a service of Reformed worship, not in, say, a press conference or tweet.

SJWism can be generally understood as a parasite on practices that have become habits through the forgetting of their purpose and animating Spirit.

Blogger Rabbi B October 14, 2015 7:15 PM  

@65 Stingray

I always took forgive, as this definition:

~stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake.

I think the vast majority of people do. But it's a poor definition, if we even dare call it that. The definition you cited is about self-control, and managing your emotions, not forgiveness. We are commanded not to hold a grudge in our heart against others, but again, that is not talking about or defining forgiveness.

I often hear people (believers) lament that they do not feel forgiven. I ask them: Have you repented of your sin and put your faith and trust in the Messiah who provided atonement for sin and has made forgiveness available to all? When you sin, are you quick to confess your sin, so that you may be forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness? If the answer is yes, feelings have nothing to do with it, you are forgiven. Because you feel forgiven? No. Because the Bible says so. Period.

People here are talking about the kind of forgiveness where the wrong doer repents and we decide to let them back into our lives and trust them again.

Yes, but extending forgiveness to someone does not necessarily mean they get the keys to the safe after they've robbed you. In this lifetime at least, we may have to live with some of the consequences of our sin, though we are forgiven of it. Forgiveness is about restoring and being restored and not holding it against someone for the rest of their lives once they have acknowledged their wrong. Forgiveness is also a two-way street. If you come to me confessing your wrong and asking my forgiveness, it would be a sin for me to withhold it from you.

Sin is what separates us from G-d and hinders our relationship with Him. The same is no less true of human relationships and the process for remedying the sin that hinders is the same for both types of relationship.

Which does the bible, or rather more accurately, does the Our Father talk about. Is it made clear anywhere? This often seems to be a huge area of confusion for a lot of people.

I could offer you too many examples to count, and I would love to. But I will refrain. I will, however, offer one of my favorites.

It is the first explicit mention of the concept of forgiveness mentioned in the Bible: the story of Joseph and his brothers. Joseph deliberately orchestrated events to re-create a situation and circumstances from over 20 years ago to observe how his brothers would behave and so determine if his brothers had indeed repented of their sin in selling him to Egypt and deceiving their father all those many years ago. Only after Judah's moving speech, the longest in the Torah, is Joseph sufficiently moved to reveal himself to his brothers and extend forgiveness. Later, Joseph weeps and comforts his brothers once again, when they express uncertainty about the sincerity of Joseph's forgiveness after Jacob their father is dead. Joseph is a marvelous portrait of the Messiah and the forgiveness that is available to all who seek it.

Here is a link to a great article that I think provides some great insight on the concept.

Blogger Zimri October 14, 2015 7:50 PM  

Same happened to Geoffrey Marcy: codiscoverer of the planet around 70 Virginis and of many, many more.

Blogger Stingray October 14, 2015 8:05 PM  

I think the vast majority of people do.

I disagree. I think today people believe forgiveness means that you are supposed to let go and completely trust again. That you are to accept what they did whether they repent or not. We've cut contact with people in our lives and we immediately got the, but you are to forgive them and move on! What was meant was, you should accept what was done and bring them back into our home with no acknowledgement of wrongdoing or any hint of change to how they chose to live their lives. I'll never forget it, because it surprised me so much, my husband said, I have forgiven them. That doesn't mean that I need to allow them back into my home (again, they was no repentance of any kind). This really surprised some people as they thought my husband wrong and cold.

This is what I get from most people that forgiveness is supposed to mean. That the person who was sinned against should forgive and the sinner should continue relishing in what they wish. It's another way to shame people into acceptance in today's messed up culture.

So, I've always thought to forgive in the manner I spoke of above when the wrong doer has no intention of repenting and forgiving as your wonderful example of Joseph did when the person is repentant. Only in the latter, some form of trust is restored wherein the former, cutting contact is fine and even good.

Blogger Rabbi B October 14, 2015 8:31 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Kentucky Packrat October 14, 2015 11:39 PM  

I think there are dangers both in unrepentant forgiveness and in failing to execute forgiveness.

I agree with posting that forgiveness cannot be accepted without repentance. The demand of "I said sorry once, you MUST forgive me" is absurd, because the speaker is absolutely unrepentant of anything other than being caught. Forgiveness here is a "mu" kind of moment.

One also has to be wronged to forgive. I can't offer Hitler or Jeffrey Dalmer forgiveness, for example, because I am completely and utterly uninvolved. Likewise, I can't demand that they be repentant, because I'm neither God nor their victim. (This is why SJWs are trying to play God and make themselves victims of every "injustice" at the same time; they crave demanding repentance when they themselves aren't the victim.)

However, Jesus also says that God forgives us the same way we forgive others. If we forgive sparingly and grudgingly, then God will also forgive sparingly and grudgingly. If we forgive boldly and widely, then God will do so with us as well.

Sometimes, the recipient is completely and utterly unrepentant, and then we hold no other obligations. Other times, a Christian victim (or a victim's family) offering forgiveness will cause repentance and salvation in people who might otherwise never see salvation.

Blogger SciVo October 15, 2015 12:14 AM  

I'm forgiving you if I don't seek vengeance on you -- including not gossipping about you -- because vengeance is the L-rd's. I'm a fool if I trust the untrustworthy, and lazily dyscivic if I let a sociopath go to victimize someone else by not seeking justice.

You have to keep things in context. We don't have to worry about an occupying empire selling our kids into slavery if we can't pay our taxes, or crucifying us for theft (and you have to wonder how desparate someone would have to be to take that chance).

Don't let users move the goalposts! A slap is an insult, not an assault! Don't be a sperge! It's an exhortation to control your temper and your pride, not be a sucker chump! Satan can quote Scripture too, and so will his adopted children here on Earth; they will do it to make it easier to exploit you, since that's what users do.

Blogger Desiderius October 15, 2015 12:36 AM  

"We don't have to worry about an occupying empire selling our kids into slavery if we can't pay our taxes"

We don't worry about it because it is happening regardless - of whether we worry or pay our taxes.

Blogger SciVo October 15, 2015 12:52 AM  

Ha! Well, yes -- but there's debt slavery, and then there's watching your young daughter sold at auction to a brothel. My point being that Jesus lived in brutal times, and was speaking to a contemporary audience. Don't let users cloud your mind by imposing modern standards on his words.

Blogger rcocean October 15, 2015 1:04 AM  

Probably the worst thing to do is to apologize after you said you wouldn't or even worse apologize after people have come to your defense.

It makes everyone who defended you feel betrayed and a fool. And makes them very reluctant to defend someone again. How many times have we seen some Republican attacked by the SJWs, the conservative defend and then the Republican issues a mea culpa.

Talk about demoralizing.

Blogger rcocean October 15, 2015 1:06 AM  

Why is it ever single time Vox talks about fighting SJW's the hang-wringing so-called Christians come out of the wood-work to worry about "what would Jesus do?"

Blogger rcocean October 15, 2015 1:08 AM  

Satan certainly works wonders doesn't he? "Hey don't fight evil, turn the other cheek, its what Jesus would've done. Really, I knew Jesus and he was a friend of mine."

Blogger rho October 15, 2015 2:05 AM  

Apologize when you respect the alternate opinion.

Apology gives ground. Give ground only when it is advantageous.

Blogger Desiderius October 15, 2015 9:17 AM  

"but there's debt slavery, and then there's watching your young daughter sold at auction to a brothel."

Refusing to watch does not change the reality of the situation.

OpenID kylekiernan October 15, 2015 6:33 PM  

an example of a good "never apologizer" is Mike Rowe. An SJW tried to outrage-furor him over prairie dogs and he burned him down where he stood cheerfully and politely. Check his FB page for the fun.

Blogger Groot October 16, 2015 2:00 AM  

@26. ncartist:

Are you njartist reborn? Tell us your story subsequent to NJ. I am genuinely curious. I love these stories.

Blogger VFM 188 October 16, 2015 6:56 AM  

He is Groot.

This minion wants to hear artist stories too.

Blogger Zapador October 16, 2015 6:57 AM  

SJP is a ghastly acronym. I prefer "Social Order Warriors" or SOWs -- as in "Off the SOWs" etc.

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