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Saturday, October 03, 2015

Mailvox: Catalonian independence

MT writes what amounts to a primer on Catalonia and the complications surrounding its independence movement in asking about the American Right's response to it. I will respond to it in a future post.

I’m writing to ask you a question that has puzzled me for some time. The American right (without a single exception that I know of) enthusiastically supports independence movements in Europe even when these movements hold views radically opposed to those of the American right. I understand that the American right may consider independence so good in and of itself that it is desirable even when pursued by the ideological antagonists of the American right. And so they would be delighted to see the South and each of the leftists coasts abandon the Union because that would leave a more decent, more genuine America. OK. But my question is: why does the American right persist in speaking of these movements as if these European independentists actually held the ideals of 1776?

I find this attitude of the American right strange because most of these movements espouse views that are diametrically opposed to anything that one might call right-wing (anti-austerity, pro-multiculturalism, pro-homosexuality, pro-EU, anti-State-church separation, vastly corrupt schemes, pro-environmentalism, pro-feminism, politically-controlled media, politically-controlled education, politically-controlled language usage, etc.) But the American right invariably ignores—indeed they don’t seem to care at all—about the actual views or deeds of the pro-independence movement. They are so determined to defend the independentists that they always take it absolutely for granted that the pro-independence movements just espouse the ideals of the Founding Fathers.

And this goes against all evidence.

This is truly spectacular in the case of Catalan secessionism (the case I know best) because they have actually been ruling their region for about 40 years now. So it’s not like their views, policies, speeches and attitudes are a matter of abstract speculation or inventive futurology. This is not like wondering what would happen if the Free State Project achieved its goal or how a Rand Paul administration might be like. These people have already done plenty of actual politics, actual ruling. Their actions are not a state secret.

For decades the independentists have spread their propaganda while the other side only broke their silence from time to time to agree with their supposed adversaries (a typical feature of the modern left-right divide), so it is only natural that foreigners will be much more acquainted with the Catalanist point of view. And since the ideals of the American right are inseparable from the ideals of 1776 (perhaps with the exception of the likes of Moldbug and maybe Hoppe, I guess), it is perfectly understandable that the American right will tend to side with other peoples who also seek to break free from another European monarch. The problem is that this sympathy is explained under the pretense or delusion that these particular independentists are carbon copies of the Minutemen whereas they hold views and actually enforce policies that are as far removed from the ideals of the Revolutionary War as you can get in modern politics, and that’s very far away indeed.

If I go to one of these American conservatives and comment that I am surprised that the American government could make this or that blunder, they’ll quickly inform me that I’m being naïve—it’s not a blunder, it’s a feature! The leftist politicians in Washington, DC are not acting in the best interests of the American people, and the Republicans—they’ll quickly add—are not much better. But mention instead the Catalan politicians and suddenly it is all milk and honey: brave, well-meaning, freedom-lovers who only want to get rid of an oppressive government. Braveheart in the 21st century, seems to be the way they think of it. A reenactment of 1776 in another land. They usually can’t name more than one of these politicians and not even one of their policies, but that doesn’t stop them.

I understand that American conservatives are very comfortable with this unique interpretation, but most of these Americans are people who have gone to great lengths to free themselves from political naiveté when it comes to their own politicians.

By the way, I am not against independence per se. I do believe that it may be good in some cases. Yes, maybe even in the Catalan case. But to me, that’s entirely beside the point. What perplexes me to no end is how the American right stubbornly keeps misinterpreting the pro-independence movements.

Also, I speak the Catalan language as a native speaker because I am from a region where we speak what the Catalonians consider a dialect of their own Catalan language. I lived in that Catalan-influenced region for two decades. I also lived in Catalonia itself for fifteen years. Now I live in Madrid where Spanish-speakers routinely mistake me for a Catalan, because of my accent and family names (Spanish people have two family names). Indeed, a Catalanist taking a look at my family tree would have an orgasm seeing only Catalan-sounding names for, at least, half a millennium. Not that this should matter, but Catalanists have repeatedly stated the capital importance of one’s family names, so there is that.

And so I find myself in the privileged position of witnessing this whole mess with an unusual amount of knowledge and an ideological open-mind. I’ve had countless conversations about this with people from all over, mostly with Catalanists. And yet, a conversation about this with the American right is always doomed to fail. Much more doomed to fail than with the usual pro-independence Catalanist. I speak of Catalonia, and the American conservative says “Catalonia” but his mind is in the Thirteen Colonies over two centuries ago. His entire worldview: every secessionist is a George Washington, everybody else a vampire.

When I speak of the Catalan issue I mention economic policies, electoral laws, legislations of all sorts, political corruption, ideological values, but the American right only hears: redcoats, redcoats, redcoats everywhere! When speaking about the facts of Catalonia to the American right, the facts of Catalonia are entirely irrelevant, it is all about the Boston tea party. I find this militant solipsism quite alien to conservatism, but there it is.

I mentioned in your blog that since 1992 the population of Catalonia has grown from 6 to 7 million due to the Catalanist policy of favoring North African and Middle East immigration to counter the Hispanic immigration from the American continent. Yet the American right keeps talking about a would-be independent Catalonia that would have “less forced Muslim invasion”. http://www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/catalonia-votes-for-independence/ This is not a matter of supposition or futurology, this is already fact. Catalanism has deliberately engaged for years now in massive Islamic immigration, yet the American right dreams that a triumphant Catalanism will actually help reverse the very trend that Catalanism initiated. This is bizarre.

I’ve mentioned repeatedly to many American conservatives how the Catalan-designed tariffs—particularly the “Arancel Cambó”—prevented the industrialization of most of Spain while protecting the industry in Catalonia and the Basque Provinces. But the American right keeps repeating the inverted tale that wronged industrious Catalonians have been robbed by Spain.

Catalonia has been receiving enormous amounts of tax money and extra benefits at the expense of the rest of the nation, in part due to the unfair Spanish electoral law which vastly over-represents Catalonia in the national parliament, often leaving the two big Spanish parties in the uncomfortable position of literally having to buy the support of the Catalanist party to form a national government in Spain. And they have repeatedly bought it with money that went from Spanish taxpayers to Spanish politicians to Catalanist politicians to accounts in tax havens.

For many years now, the rest of Spain has had to pay for the Catalan Social Security that seems doomed to eternal deficits. And the Spanish government has bailed out the Catalan regional government in excess of 20,000,000,000 euros already since the crisis began. And Catalonia (since before the days of the Franco regime) has received more money for public infrastructure than anyone else. Presently, it is the only region in the nation that has each one of its 4 provincial capitals linked by the Spanish-funded high speed train. Obviously an irresponsible extravagance, but this is reported in the Catalan media as “Madrid steals from us”.

Not all regional governments are funded according to the same laws: Navarra and the Basque Provinces have a unique system—popularly known as “el cupo vasco” and supposedly a continuation of the historic “fueros” that have limited the power of kings for a thousand years—which allows their regional governments to collect their own taxes while at the same time strictly limits the contribution of these regions to the national tax revenue. This has made it very difficult for Basque and Navarrese leaders to engage in nonsensical spending and has allowed these regions to have an unparalleled prosperity. Interestingly, very few in the rest of Spain have complained, and a growing number suggest the system should be extended to every corner of the kingdom. The Eurocrats, on the other hand, insist it should be abolished.

But why am I mentioning how the Basque regional government is funded? The Catalan leaders were offered this system in 1978 but they refused it because they didn’t want to appear as tax collectors to their people: let Madrid play bad cop and then let the Catalan politicians go to Madrid and sell their votes for money. And in each new election the Catalan votes are overrepresented and then there is a new charade where the two main Spanish parties bid for the Catalanist whore. But as years passed, these Spanish parties raised their bids by offering to share ever larger percentages of tax revenues. The national government keeps looking as the bad guy for collecting the taxes, and the Catalonian politicians keep looking as the good guys for (over)spending it. Then Catalonia runs into preposterous deficits and the regional leaders run to Madrid to get more Spanish tax money. And the singsong goes on about Madrid being a thief. This is systematically described among the American right as Catalans needing tax freedom from oppressive Spain.

In the early 2000s, the Spanish conservative government made a zero-deficit law. The problem was that most spending was done by the regions while most tax collecting was done by the central government. So long as most regions were ruled by the conservative party, things were manageable, and the deficit problem seemed to be solvable at last. But by the time the crisis came, the new socialist government had eliminated the zero deficit rule. And they also reformed the law regulating the financing of regional governments explicitly bragging that it was to the detriment of Madrid, Baleares and Valencia and to the benefit of Catalonia (the Spanish government that did this was socialist, while the conservatives were running the abused regions). When the socialists lost the last national elections, the conservatives now in power could not reintroduce the no-deficit rule in part because Catalonia had gotten very cozy with its overspending practices. Catalonia has about 14% of the population but has incurred in about 25% of the debt.

All this while the government of the region of Madrid lowered taxes and embarked in liberalizing reforms. Last year alone, of the 4.000 businesses that left Catalonia, nearly half of them relocated to Madrid. When this trend began, the media was quick to inform us that this had nothing to do with Catalanist interventionism, now the pretense is over. The farce has gone so far that it can only be sold in Catalonia to a brain-washed populace. Even one of the sons of the Pujol clan (the family who created and embodied modern-day Catalanism) moved to Madrid to avoid the taxes imposed by his own family in Catalonia! This is where I’d expect the American right to say “you can’t make this shit up” but no. They are a very smart family, always bragged about being humble middle class from the rural heartland, all they've done is politics, and now they have a collection of luxury cars, and bank accounts in several tax havens... meanwhile patriotic Catalanists dream of having "their own" tax agency so they can pay all their taxes to the likes of the Pujol clan. And the American right goes on with their stories about Spain sucking the blood of the hard-working Catalans, because the British Crown invented the unconstitutional IRS to piss off the colonists, or something.

The Catalan government refused to make any spending cuts in its gigantic media conglomerate that includes six TV channels (in a region of 7 million people) while they stopped paying their share of publicly-paid medicine. The Spanish government, again, sent extra funds to the Catalan government AND extra funds to the medicine suppliers. But somehow Spain is the thief.

This reminds me of how scientists initially thought that electric current moved in the direction of positive charges but when they found it was actually the negative electron that moved, they kept the criterion: it goes this way but we’ll say it goes that way. Scientists can do this because it doesn’t interfere with their understanding of the actual phenomenon, the same cannot be said of the American right.

Obviously, the Catalan media conglomerate runs its own huge deficit, which is paid by Spanish taxpayers to convince the Catalan population of how evil Spain is. And the conglomerate kept hammering the same old tune about “Madrid is robbing us”. With the crisis, other regions have had to downsize and in some cases close altogether their public regional TV stations, but the Catalanist propaganda machine remains untouched. Patients can live without their medicine, medicine suppliers can live without their money, but Catalans can’t live without their six public TV channels.

As an economist I tend to focus on the financial and fiscal aspects of all this aberration, this "Himalaya of lies" as Besteiro said. But it goes far, far, far beyond that. The tip of the iceberg: the Catalonian regional government ran an over-the-top TV ad bluntly promoting sexual promiscuity, pedophilia, homosexuality and even sexual violence but when a Spanish conservative commentator criticized it, he was severely fined for saying that the political leader (a Catalanist woman) responsible for this was a “swine”. Catalanism has devastated Catalan society to the point that nobody from Catalonia dared criticize this ad: no media, no church, no heart-bleeding NGO. It had to be someone from evil, evil Madrid. Sexual promiscuity, pedophilia, homosexuality and even sexual violence are a-ok but to call a female pro-independence politician a “swine” is an intolerable offense. The American right that is so quick to criticize these things everywhere mysteriously went blind, deaf, and mute that day. Just like the feminists, sexual degeneracy is evil, except when it’s perpetrated by “one of ours”, I guess.

Then, of course, there are the huge money-laundering scams by the Catalanist leaders. Which became public knowledge in the early 1980s, the first one being the Banca Catalana case. But the Spanish government chose to manipulate the judiciary and the media to save the Catalanist leadership and make people forget the whole business. Yes, I know, this planet is overflowing with governmental wisdom and journalistic integrity. Mysteriously, silencing the judiciary and the media about the first cases of corruption did nothing to prevent further Catalanist corruption. Actually, more cases appeared over the years: De la Rosa, Casinos, Planes de Muns, Estivill, Hacienda, Palau de la Musica, Cullell, Alavedra, Pallerols, etc.... Eventually, the headquarters of Pujol's party had to be foreclosed due to the debts caused by the scandals. And the show goes on.

An innocent mortal can be accused of faults much milder than any of these cases and his life as a free man is ruined forever. But the Catalanist leaders engage in this behavior all the time and they are the figureheads of the eternal victims. “Bizarre” doesn’t begin to describe this.

When the national government is covering your back and you have a media empire of newspapers, radio stations and 6 TV channels, and the nominally private media busy licking your parts, then nobody among The People seems to know a thing about corruption. That's why for years Catalonia was known as “el estanque dorado” (the golden pond): a piss puddle that stinks but where nobody dares make waves and so it looks gilded and peaceful.

A turning point for the golden pond came one day when the supposedly private media had become so much part of the Catalanist elite's scam machine that they began issuing unanimous op-eds. I mean, literally unanimous. Each and every major newspaper in the region printed the very same op-ed. Word by word. Suddenly everybody in Catalonia had one single idea about one single issue and, of course, it just happened to be 100% in sync with what the Catalanist-controlled media had been preaching for decades. Oh, did I forget to mention that the regional elite also controls the education system and the regional police?

So, when Pujol had to publicly explain to his people that he had been hoarding large amounts of money in tax havens, well, it was a big shock. Good old Pujol stealing from his own people of Catalonia! Impossible, stealing is what Madrid does! The TV says so! All TVs say so! And the teachers say so! It can't be true! But Pujol has said so, therefore it can't be false! Robbie the Robot's circuitry didn't suffer that much.

Spain would be much better off without the parasitical Catalonian elite. Except that the place is already a Muslim beachhead, and sooner than later someone will have to deal with that mess. And I don't mean hashtags. But who? The Catalanists will be the dhimmis of the Muslims, the EU is already cheering the Muslims, as is the red-profaned Vatican and the UN, the Americans are already busy in their War against Christendom, and Spain will perhaps not exist—to everybody’s delight. Which reminds me of Don Pelayo and his battle at Covadonga. But it also reminds me that in 1770, the 4-year-old Russian Imperial Navy anchored at the Spanish coastal city where I was born—where hundreds of Russian sailors are buried—on its way to defeat the Turks at Chesma.

This is just the tip of the iceberg of the many, many things that can be said about the Catalanist movement. I’ve mentioned many of these things to many an American conservative, but until this day I’ve never found one who even wanted to listen, they just want to dream on with their mental movie about Braveheart in the 21st century. I am perplexed by this attitude of the American right.

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96 Comments:

Blogger Bill October 03, 2015 9:13 AM  

So if Catalonia were actually independent, they'd either go bust or change their ways. From this, it really sounds like the problem is that Catalonia is subject to Spain (that is; being propped up by Spain), and the solution is an independent Catalonia. All the "minutemen" stuff is a distraction.

Blogger Guitar Man October 03, 2015 9:25 AM  

Fascinating! I don't support the inevitable results of some secessionist movements, but if a group of people want to break off and form their own government, let them. This doesn't mean they'll be better off, but perhaps the rest of the people will be better off.

Blogger Salt October 03, 2015 9:31 AM  

A reenactment of 1776 in another land... they just want to dream on with their mental movie about Braveheart in the 21st century. I am perplexed by this attitude of the American right.

Americans can often be summed by Hollywood. Sad to say, but it's true. From Full Metal Jacket you can see the thought process, the belief of American exceptionalism, of those you question. Who wouldn't want to be an American?

"inside every [gook] there is an American trying to get out."

Blogger Jakeithus October 03, 2015 9:40 AM  

It sounds not all that different than the situation with Quebec here in Canada. Disproportionately leftist, huge debt, unable to maintain their society without assistancd from the more productive areas of the country, national parties that attempt to buy votes from the separatists. I'm not aware of what thre response of the American Right is to Quebec, the Canadian response is mixed. Personally I wouldn't shed a tear if Quebec decided to leave. I'm personally tired of having politicians from Quebec influencing my life in any way, but I'm probably in the minorty. I don't think there is any sort of uniquely Canadian identity that requires Quebec however, and that seems to be a big argument from those who insist ot would be a loss if Quebec leaves.

Of course the separatists believe that they can negotiate receiving benefits from the rest of Canada even if they left. If the people of Quebec ever figured out this wouldn't be the case, support for leaving would immediately vanish.

Blogger Geoff October 03, 2015 9:56 AM  

Jake,

Quebec is indeed leftist in some ways but at least they are on the "right" in terms of wanting to preserve their culture. For example, the Quebecois are overwhelmingly in favor of banning the Niqab.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian October 03, 2015 10:09 AM  

Very interesting post.

Blogger Jakeithus October 03, 2015 10:19 AM  

Geoff,

I don't disagree. Quebec puts on the veneer of a progressive, multicultural, tolerant place, when really it's filled with xenophobic, anti-religious bigots. That's not a bad thing, although the hypocrisy and superiority complex shown by certain Quebecois like Trudeau towards us westerners can be quite grating.

But you're right in terms of it being "their culture". I don't think there is much of a thing as shared Canadian culture, in the same way there is not any real shared American culture anymore. It's probably best for them to go their own way and stop importing their culture onto those of us who don't want it.

The level to which they want to preserve their culture is up for debate as well. They might wish to protect it from immigrants, but gone are the days of large Quebecois families with 12 kids to carry on that culture. They might dislike immigrants, but they hate their Catholic heritage even more. Without rediscovering that they're likely to die out regardless of how many women start wearong the Niqab there.

Blogger Chent October 03, 2015 10:26 AM  

It's strange to find a compatriot in a place like that. As MT, Catalan is my mother tongue because I live in a region who speaks a dialect of Catalan. As MT, I lived in Catalonia for a while (9 years, I studied there, I was a college professor teaching in Catalan and presented my PhD thesis in Catalan). As MT, I don't live there anymore (I live in Latin America but I still speak Catalan with my family and friends).

I can attest that what MT is true and very comprehensive.

Catalanism is a doctrine who has more than 100 years and started claiming that "the Catalan race" (there is no such thing, because Catalan people are genetically Spanish) was superior to "the Spanish race". After World World II, this was whitewashed and it was mixed with leftist ideas. That is, Catalans are superior to the rest of Spaniards, but they have been oppressed by Spain so they have been unable to express this superiority.

"A is superior than B, but B is oppressing A so A deserves to be free of this oppression so laws must be enacted to help B and "positive-discriminate" A" is the quintessential leftist idea. Replace (A,B) with (Catalan, Spanish) and you have Catalanism. Replace it with (women, men/patriarchy) and you have Feminism. Replace it with (non-white races, white race) and you have so-called "antiracism". Replace it with (Germans, Jews) and you have nazism. Replace it with (poor, rich) and you have Classical Leftism.

From 1979, Catalonia has had their own laws, government and Parlament inside Spain and complete power in mass media, education and other areas. From 1980 on, the doctrine of Catalanism seized the power in democratic elections (when they hided their project and appeared to be moderate) and has been ruling Catalonia ever since (whether with left-wing or right-wing parties). The government of Spain has given up their legal rights about this region of Spain because it needed the support of Catalanist parties. As a consequence, the Spanish law has been violated in Catalonia for examples.

For example, Catalonia has two official languages: Catalan (spoken by about 5 millions speakers, inside and outside of Catalonia) and Spanish (spoken by 410 million people in the world). In Catalonia, most people have Spanish as a native tongue (56.7%) as opposed to Catalan (39.4%).

Anyway, Spanish law grants the right for a kid to study in Catalan and Spanish but the Catalan does not allow this. Only school in Catalan is allowed in public schools. Even when the Supreme Court of Spain (to be fair, the Constitutional Court) has ruled again and again that kids should have the option to study in Spanish, the government of Catalonia has disobeyed the law for decades.

So, if you are an American/Spanish/Latin American guy working in a multinational company and you move to Catalonia, you better pay a private school (if you find it, because they are full) or your kid will have to study Math, Science and any other subject in Catalan. If he does not know Catalan, his grades and education will suffer. When you move out of Catalonia, this language won't be useful anywhere.

Blogger Daniel October 03, 2015 10:26 AM  

Independence creates buffers against diversity, generally. Let Catalan go dhimmi. It will let Spain know who to wipe out in the next inquisition.

It is appealing to this Right-winger because it gives the Spanish patient a shot at containing the cancer in a marginally peaceful way.

Forcing union on a welfare entity is more likely to cause hot war than letting them go and die on their own. I think California is a hellhole of morons, but I strongly support their independence. It means I am independent from them too.

Blogger Chent October 03, 2015 10:27 AM  

(continued)

From 1980 on, the government of Catalonia embarked in a project of indoctrination of the Catalan population. In schools, Catalonia is taught as different from Spain, as a virtual independent country. Catalanism is indoctrinated to the kids since the earliest age (you know, Catalan people are different and better than Spanish and have been oppressed by Spanish people for longtime and a bunch of historical myths around this idea). In Catalan public television (8 channels) and radio, only Catalanist opinions have been allowed by the anchors and the people who go there (from time to time, they have a non-Catalanist surrounded by Catalanists so they can attack it and make him appear foolish). The government of Catalonia gives a lot of money to private mass media so private mass media toes the line of Catalanism to keep on receiving money. The government of Catalonia gives a lot of money to think tanks, NGOs, associations of all kinds (religious, political, ethnic, popular Catalan games) as long as they go along or support the project of Catalanism

What we have here is the typical project of leftism. A leftist elite seizes the power and uses all the power it has to indoctrinate the population. This is the way American people have been indoctrinated in leftist ideas (for example, feminism). This is the way the Catalan people has been indoctrinated in Catalanist ideas. As a result, the opinion that Catalan people should be an independent State (the pro-independence opinion) has been steadily growing. In 1980, it was a minority position (less than 5%). In 2005, it could have about 30% of the population. The government of Catalonia has used the recent economic crisis of Southern Europe to blame Spain, telling that an independent Catalonia would be "the Switzerland of the Mediterranean sea" (instead of an impoverished country that has lost its main market, that is, Spain). So support for the independence has grown at least while the crisis lasts, although recent elections (last September 27th) shows that it is not majority (44% supporting the independence, 51% non supporting it). In spite of that, the government of Catalonia claims that it has a mandate of a Catalan people to keep on advancing towards independence.

So when you see all these demonstrations in TV, with so beautiful colors, with people asking for the independence of Catalonia, please think:

1) There are more people that don't want the independence of Catalonia. However, the pro-independence people do not care because they don't care about democracy but about imposing their views. They don't care about the law but they have broken it for decades. They don't care about different opinions: it is a totalitarian movement.

2) The support for independence has been manufactured from the power, indoctrinating the masses, using school and mass media. In this sense, it is very similar to the demonstrations supporting gay marriage. It is not bottom-up, but top-down.

In short words, Catalanism is the quintessential leftist movement. I know that you compare it with American independence or support to the Texan independence but it is a very different political animal. I am embarrassed to say that I was a radical Catalanist in my youth, but you end up rejecting leftism when you grow up.

Blogger Chent October 03, 2015 10:28 AM  

Sorry, the first sentence is incorrect

"because I live in a region who speaks a dialect of Catalan. "

should be

"because I AM FROM a region who speaks a dialect of Catalan."

Blogger Daniel October 03, 2015 10:28 AM  

Independence creates buffers against diversity, generally. Let Catalan go dhimmi. It will let Spain know who to wipe out in the next inquisition.

It is appealing to this Right-winger because it gives the Spanish patient a shot at containing the cancer in a marginally peaceful way.

Forcing union on a welfare entity is more likely to cause hot war than letting them go and die on their own. I think California is a hellhole of morons, but I strongly support their independence. It means I am independent from them too.

Blogger Cail Corishev October 03, 2015 10:31 AM  

One factor may be the American conceit of being a nation of laws/ideas rather than of men. That ties into blank-slate thinking too, though it's hard to say which way the causality goes. But Americans, especially conservatives, like to think America became great because of ideas and events, rather than because of individuals. We still admire individuals like Washington (though far less than we used to) and still have statues and holidays for them, but we like to think the really important part was the ideas, so any plucky group of founders could have done what they did.

If it was the fight for independence that made America great, more so than the individual men who were fighting, then it makes sense that fighting for independence will make other peoples great too. If having a constitution makes a nation great, rather than the virtue of the individuals who swear to uphold it, then writing constitutions will make other nations great too. If voting made America great rather than the individual men who were voting and being voted on, then voting will make other nations great too.

You can see it clearly in the immigration debate, where it's hard even to get people, especially on the right, to shift away from arguing whether immigration itself is good or bad long enough to discuss the immigrants themselves. The assumption is that immigration will make immigrants good citizens, somehow working ex opere operato like a Sacrament.

American conservatives are fully invested in a particular myth of American wonderfulness; and because it's a myth -- not necessarily false, but not strictly based on facts either -- they can't examine it too closely. (I wonder if Roman citizens in Caesar's time thought it gauche to challenge the lupine origin story of Romulus and Remus.) So certain things such as independence and immigration are taken as good regardless of the circumstances.

(Unless the people wanting independence happen to live in a particular part of the Levant, of course. So I guess this way of thinking does have a limit.)

Blogger Goodnight October 03, 2015 10:41 AM  

I'm not sure to whom on the American right MT is speaking. From my own conversations, supporting European separatists has little to do with their politics and much to do with the principle of secession. I've had many, many discussions with people here in Texas in the last year about Scotland's push for independence. Most of them were well aware that Scotland's government is radically left-wing, even more radical in many ways than the American left. And yet they overwhelmingly supported Scottish independence.

When pressed, most of these people admitted they supported the Scottish movement to give a veneer of respectability to the idea of secession. What a European like MT might not understand is that ideas like secession or home rule (or states rights) have a taint attached in America post-1865. Merely mentioning them will often result in an SJW swarm linking you to slavery and racism. Secession in America has much the same stigma as fascism does in Europe.

At least in my experience, I don't think a lot of the American right really see European separatists as some sort of echo of 1776. Instead they are feeling out ways to reintroduce secession as a viable political idea in America. At least from my impressions here, support for European separatists are mostly just a way to force the same argument into the open here in America.

Blogger Unknown October 03, 2015 10:44 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger The Other Robot October 03, 2015 10:47 AM  

I don't know if Lincoln was from the American Right, but he was a Republican, so there is that. However, I do know that he was not enamored with secessionist views.

I say, let the Catalans secede. If 30 or so years we will know if their experiment is a success or not. I suspect they will go crawling back to Madrid asking for the old arrangement.

Blogger Mastermind October 03, 2015 10:49 AM  

"Jake,

Quebec is indeed leftist in some ways but at least they are on the "right" in terms of wanting to preserve their culture. For example, the Quebecois are overwhelmingly in favor of banning the Niqab."

They also ban women from taking their husband's names. Their desire to ban the Niqab comes from radical feminism, not preservation of culture (which they only want to preserve against the English). I hope Quebec secedes and turns into a third world craphole.

Blogger The Other Robot October 03, 2015 10:50 AM  

Further, I think the author of this little piece has made an enormous category mistake. Surely the American Revolution was very different from a secession.

I have this, perhaps mistaken, impression that there is a large body of water between England and the American Colonies.

Blogger Danby October 03, 2015 10:52 AM  

I can't speak for others, but I am a full-bore tribal federalist.
In one tribe (Catalans, Normans, Bretons, Welsh, Scots, Quebecois, Cajun, Basques,whoever) wishes to run their own affairs, let them go. To do otherwise breeds resentment and eventually violence. Of course, that means they pay their own way, provide their own defense.What they do with their independence is not my concern. They want to live in a Marxist shithole? That's their lookout.

Blogger Aeoli Pera October 03, 2015 10:52 AM  

It sounds like Spain needs to declare independence from Catalonia.

Blogger Cail Corishev October 03, 2015 10:56 AM  

I'm not sure to whom on the American right MT is speaking.

I assumed he was talking about the mainstream conservative Republican "right." In other words, the kind of people who support independence/secession for everyone except Americans and Palestinians.

I tend to think most countries could stand to be smaller, so like Daniel, I figure if there are two or more incompatible groups of people in a country, they should split up. That's just common sense: if you can't stand someone, don't be his roommate. But that's not the reason the mainstream American right supports revolutions in faraway places, or it would support the same thing at home.

Blogger Lost Pilgrim October 03, 2015 11:04 AM  

It's because Catalonia can leverage the larger federal government that they can act like tyrants with others' money. Looks the the worst of both worlds to me at this point. Separate and let both seek their own levels of speech and finances etc.

Few want to see their society change for what they see as the worse, nor do they want people they view as tyrants and bullies ruling them. I don't support independence but if it takes 'Tito' to keep a country together they were never the same country in the first place.

Blogger IM2L844 October 03, 2015 11:04 AM  

Collectivist/centralization vs individualist/decentralization should be how you think about it. Centralization builds an infrastructure that allows for the inevitable entryism of some tyrannical ideology to impose their ideology on a global scale. Decentralization mitigates that possibility. I would much rather have scattered pockets of tyranny that have a potential to be deposed than a behemoth of tyranny that has no chance of ever being usurped once in place.

Blogger Cinco October 03, 2015 11:10 AM  

The answer to his conundrum is obvious. Let fascists be ruled by fascists, let conservatives be "ruled" by conservatives. To each their own. I have long said that it's time for the red states to divorce themselves from the blue states; we are like the old married couple just sticking it out for the kids.

Blogger Jakeithus October 03, 2015 11:11 AM  

Mastermind,

While you're right that radical feminism is rampant in Quebec, it's the radical feminists who support a Muslim woman's right to wear a Niqab if they wish. They don't care if women are oppressed by other cultures, just their own. It's part of the incoherent mess that makes feminism so appealing to a certain class. It's why feminist white knight posterboy Justin Trudeau is not jumping on the bandwagon against the niqab.

Many Quebecois are xenophobic and bigoted, despite the face they try and present to the world.


OpenID homesteader1 October 03, 2015 11:44 AM  

There being 50 american states, we rarely have time to concern ourselves with political details outside of our own state. There being another 50 or so European states, we then rarely concern ourselves with their politics. There are only so many hours...

Having said that, MT offers an excellent account of the Catalanian affair, but as an American Traditionalist, Alt-Rightist, etc., some points come to mind.

1. They have de facto independence, but still insust on financial stupport. Why does the rest of Spain tolerate this?

2. As a man of the Right, I try to follow history's lessons. It teaches the dissolution of conglomerate states over time. Thus, when some region of malcontents chooses to go, YOU SHOULD LET THEM. ("If they want space, make them feel like an astronaut.")

3. Plainly, MT is correct about the nefariousness of the Catalanian movement.ALL THE MORE REASON TO LIBERATE THEM. It's like the kid who refuses to leave home, but bitches about the rules, then asks for money. The proper response is GET THE FUCK OUT!!

Thus, it's not that we support left wing politics-we support the breakup of failed marriages.

Blogger Geoff October 03, 2015 11:47 AM  

Jake and Mastermind, good point about the radical feminism in Quebec. Roosh V barely made it out of there alive!

Speaking of the Niqab, did you see Ezra Levant recently turned the debate up a notch by comparing the Niqab to the KKK outfit? Say what you want about that dude, but he has balls.

OpenID nativebaltimoron October 03, 2015 11:51 AM  

I think that "wayward sisters depart in peace" is preferable to pinning states together at bayonet-point. On the level of principle, I think it far better for secession to be allowed than not. A great deal of the dysfunction in present-day American politics, including the Brobdingnagian growth of the federal government, is rooted in the lack of an ultimate check on Washington's power. In theory, an Article V convention remains as a final fail-safe, but since Americans as a whole lack the political will or vision to use it...

For Britain, it would be better to let the Scots go. Let them wallow in their leftist fantasies, leaving the more level-headed Britons free to exit the EU and preserve English sovereignty and territorial integrity. For Spain, too, I assume, it would be better not to have to buy Catalonian votes.

Blogger Rantor October 03, 2015 11:59 AM  

Devolve authority to the lowest level. Preferably to the father and township. Scotland leaving the UK is outstanding for England because the Scots are just a drag on the whole country, financially and liberal party wise. Some estimates were that Labour would never again run England if the Scots left. While I am sure a Conservative PM would come along a make a hash of it... Improving the odds of no Labour PM again is fine with me.

Northern Italy independent? Fine. Catalan? Quebec? All fine. As the economy grows worse, the unity of Europe will devolve. States will seek independence and the English may well vote for it (only to see Scots oppose independence for the UK).

In the U.S. I prefer to see us remain a country, but as the Constitution envisioned it. Devolve power to the states. We need the state's to fight for their rights and ignore unconstitutional crap coming out of DC. 50 independent but United States as the founders envisioned.

Blogger John Morris October 03, 2015 1:21 PM  

I think others have already noted it well that most of us see independence movements more in the spirit of the 1860s than then 1770s. More generally the left always pushes toward larger and larger nation states with an end goal of one world government, voted in one last time. Conservatives want a thousand nations with the only thing above them a few International Laws generally agreed upon because everyone can agree the world couldn't keep operating without them.

Blogger Brad Andrews October 03, 2015 1:55 PM  

The argument in the OP boils down to "they won't behave the way I want, so they should not be allowed independence."

I would rather the US states split up than many keep fleeing the failed state of California for places like my current home of Texas and proceed to try and corrupt it.

Let them go their own way and reap the consequences of their policies. Stop supporting them! What is wrong with that?

Blogger Anthony October 03, 2015 1:59 PM  

Another reason for the Right to support Catalan (and Scottish, Quebecois, etc.) independence is that more conservative parties will emerge after independence. Right now, conservative fiscal and social policies are associated with the central government, and are thus discredited in the eyes of many who might otherwise be sympathetic to those policies. After independence, a party of the Right, if it's not reunificationist, can emerge as a competitive party.

Blogger Groot October 03, 2015 2:41 PM  

MT and Chent, I congratulate your clear explications of the situation. That's the most I've ever read about Catalan, and the only thing I've come close to trusting as reliable. Digging through the sludge of lies, misinformation and self-dealing delusions to find some truth is hard enough in English about our own country, and beyond the patience or interest of almost everybody in the US about some foreign impoverished disaster.

Just keep talking, posting and getting the word out. Others will join you and propagate the message. You're not going to take away their TV stations and newspapers, but you have the Internet now. I actually have an opinion now that I could argue, based on this post. Imagine how many with skin in the game now have their eyes open. Keep writing.

Blogger rcocean October 03, 2015 2:45 PM  

I've never understood why any Anglo-Canadian would WANT to keep Quebec. Its interesting to talk to Englishmen who want to keep Scotland in the union or Canadians who want Quebec to not separate, can never come up with any substantive reason as why they shouldn't be allowed to leave. Most of them just seem to be dumb status quo "its always been that way" don't rock the boat types.

Blogger rcocean October 03, 2015 2:47 PM  

As for Spain, I didn't even know there was a Catalan language. I thought 500 years after Queen Isabella it was a homogeneous country. Guess I was wrong.

Blogger IM2L844 October 03, 2015 2:47 PM  

There are good reasons for antitrust laws and natural aversions to de jure monopolies. Human beings are corrupt, self centered animals. The pendulum eventually swings away from your ideal and to the opposite extreme. To think an organization of any kind will remain benevolent forever, however initially enlightened and well intentioned, is simply foolish. Governments are not intrinsically immune from human nature. Governments are intrinsically subject to human nature. The long game is what's important.

Blogger the bandit October 03, 2015 2:55 PM  

"The American right (without a single exception that I know of) enthusiastically supports independence movements in Europe even when these movements hold views radically opposed to those of the American right."

That's because, for the right, principle isn't determined by political agreement.

What puzzles me is how you can list so many reasons why Catalonia is a cancer to Spain and still want to keep it. If California or New York wanted to secede from the U.S., I'd write the secession papers myself.

Blogger luagha October 03, 2015 3:09 PM  

Great stuff.

You address debt, but I don't see Spain's positon in the PIIGS directly addressed. Where are they at? Are they still threatening collapse, just a little more in the future? I think I recall reading that Spain, like California, has a longer way to go before it collapses under its own debt much like California can go on longer than Illinois just because their economy is larger.

What is Catalonia's plan to deal with that debt in case of secession? From the tenor of your post, they probably want to pawn all the debt off on Spain and start up scot-free. That dog won't hunt, but then, Catalonia gets a lot of stuff their way.

Blogger Nicholas Lewis October 03, 2015 3:24 PM  

I see most of the commenters here agree with me on a fundamental level. It doesn't matter what the politics of the Catalan independence movement is; it is a fundamental right of all people to chose their own governance. The farther away that government is, ethnically, geographically, linguistically or what have you, the less it will represent the governed, and the less just it is bound to be. If the Catalan wish to destroy themselves, that is their business, and it is best for the rest of Spain if they are allowed to do so without dragging the rest of Spain with them.

Blogger Jakeithus October 03, 2015 3:36 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Jakeithus October 03, 2015 3:36 PM  

In Canada, the elites have a strong interest in keeping the status quo in place. The elite in our country has always relied on an alliance of Ontario and Quebec to dominate the political sphere as well as the west and the maritimes. If Quebec left, Ontario wouldn't have an ally when it comes to the rest of the country and conservatives and westerners would probably dominate the country politically for years.

Going back to elementary school, I remember learning about the Riel Rebellion, in which the evil western separatists try to destroy our great country of Canada. It wasn't until years later that I realized it probably made just much sense for me as a westerner to identify with Riel rather than what was taught to us. Most people probably didn't give the propoganda a second thought

OpenID Steve October 03, 2015 4:12 PM  

If what Catalan believes is true they will be better off separating, if it is false they will be better off 2 decades after separating like a trust fund kid that found out his trust fund was managed by Bernie Madoff.

6 to 7 million due to the Catalanist policy of favoring North African and Middle East immigration to counter the Hispanic immigration from the American continent.

Dam I always thought Catalina wanted to secede to avoid being flooded with die verse city. Its like people that join HOAs because the rules will prevent n1666ers from living there but don't want to admit it.

cancer to Spain and still want to keep it. If California or New York wanted to secede from the U.S., I'd write the secession papers myself

No kidding make sure CA residents that want to leave are carefully screened.

Catalonian regional government ran an over-the-top TV ad bluntly promoting sexual

That actually ran on TV? Did GRRM write the screenplay?

This doesn't mean they'll be better off, but perhaps the rest of the people will be better off.

They will have to grow learn and deal with the truth. Failing that they can just give bus tickets to all the Africans/moslems after cutting welfare

50 independent but United States as the founders envisioned.

The problem in the people that want more money to be taken out of my paycheck to pay for Latrina's 27 illegitimate crack babies will move away from the problems they create but vote for the problems in the new state. Like people that move next to a military firing range that complain about the noise, not smart enough to know why the land was cheap.

What is Catalonia's plan to deal with that debt in case of secession?

The conservatives in CA that wanted to succeed wanted to do a per capita split of the debt which was fair, the leftist idea to split CA into 6 states leaves no state with CA in the name,so it would be like declaring bankruptcy or a deceased estate that was broke. This would give the leftists parts more senators but the right sections only 2.
-BGS

Blogger Cail Corishev October 03, 2015 4:22 PM  

I've never understood why any Anglo-Canadian would WANT to keep Quebec.

Why do so many Americans want to keep Puerto Rico? Leftists want to because it burns wealth, obfuscates the immigration question, and supplies votes (at the conventions), of course. Corporations like Microsoft want to keep it for tax purposes. But why aren't American conservatives/Republicans who support independence movements (almost) everywhere else screaming to cut it loose?

Blogger beerme #0183 October 03, 2015 4:43 PM  

As a Southerner, I support peaceful secession movements everywhere. The concept of secession has been tainted by the rewriting of modern history by the victors and it needs to be legitimized before the inevitable end of Washington's domination over the states. If peaceful partition is impossible, then violent partition becomes the only option.

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 03, 2015 4:47 PM  

I am the MT Vox quotes as the author of the mailvox.

Vox, thank you very much for posting this. I look forward to your input.

Cail Corishev, thank you very much for answering my question. I find your explanation very interesting and convincing. I must tell you that of all the countless times I’ve asked this question it always went unanswered, you are the first to address it. Thank you. People always go back to the (to me) utterly pointless “let them go!” To which I say “not at all what I was asking”.

Chent you make some very good points. A particularly important one which I did not mention and is crucial (there are so many) is that this is a strictly top-down artificial publicly-created movement. And worse, even with all the power of the gigantic media-education conglomerate, it is not even a majority sentiment.

Goodnight, you say “I'm not sure to whom on the American right MT is speaking” I’m speaking mostly of bloggers and every commenter I’ve read or hear, mainstream and non-mainstream. From small-l libertarians to constitutionalists. The American right persists in portraying Catalans as being exploited buy tax-hungry Spain. This is the opposite of the truth. I insist: I’m not making a point against secession—I’m wondering and I am asking why does the American right systematically mischaracterize these people, their values, their goals, their actions, their situation. An informed American right might say, I dare suggest: Catalonia is draining Spain, so Spain needs an amputation. And this would be an opinion well-grounded in truth. But they persists in basing their pro-independence (which I do not criticize) on the myth of Catalan victimhood and Spanish oppression. The example that I quote about Muslim forced immigration is a glaring example of this, as is Chents’ mention that the constitutional rights of speakers in Catalonia are systematically violated by the Catalan government, and so many, many, many other cases.

IM2L844, I do understand and share the appeal to decentralization. (I wrote elsewhere about the need to Helvetize Europe.) Again, this was not what I was asking. But I must acknowledge that there is a very big problem with this appeal to decentralization in Spain: two of the worst things to ever happen here are actually cases of decentralization. One is the “reinos de taifas” in which regions were so unable to unite for a common goal that an enemy subjugated them for generations and eventually vanquished them forever, and the other is “cantonalismo” in which city-states sent gunships to bomb other city-states as soon as they became independent.

homesteader1. Indeed, I understand perfectly that an American has no particular reason to be particularly knowledgeable about Catalonia. It goes without saying. But if I don’t know a thing about secessionism in some remote Mongolian valley I won’t write an opinion piece about how those secessionists are being oppressed and the evil centralists should let them go. Even if secession is desirable or even the best possible solution, I don’t force a preconceived template on the situation. First, let’s be honest about facts. How can the American right be so refractory to this?

You, homesteader1, asks “ Why does the rest of Spain tolerate this?” And I could retort: why do Americans tolerate so many abuses from their present leaders, could I not? And we’d probably all agree that there is an education system that is corrupt and evil to the bone, and that while perhaps 50% of Americans lean somehow towards the right, the proportion among those working in the media is closer to 7-to-1 or 10-to-1. Most people are kept in a state of ignorance, made all the worse by an education system that obliterates critical thought and the importance of values. Yes, they could and should get up from the couch, turn off the TV, read this and that, take it all more seriously, avoid voting this main party just because that other one looks like devil incarnate. Rings a bell, doesn’t it? Same thing.

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 03, 2015 4:48 PM  

You also say “Thus, when some region of malcontents chooses to go, YOU SHOULD LET THEM.” And “It's like the kid who refuses to leave home, but bitches about the rules, then asks for money” Indeed. Again, I have nothing against this in principle and it is not in the least the point of the email I sent Vox. But, to address it succinctly, when we take this option we must do so fully understanding how this came to be and what the reality is: most people have never been for independence in Catalonia even with half a dozen public TV and an entire education system hammering their brains for 40 years (there are so many things to say, I understated this crucial one). And also: if we do let them go now that they have premeditatedly imported a million Muslims, we must be aware of the nature of our new neighbor, it’s not a Catalan state, it’s Sharia-land. We may still conclude “let them go” but we must be clear about the actual facts, not force-feed a template that has nothing to do with them and even prevents us from acknowledging them.

Anthony says “After independence, a party of the Right, if it's not reunificationist, can emerge as a competitive party.” Excellent point. I suspect that if there is indeed independence, and some conservative party emerges, their message will be almost exclusively about Islamization and national roots, not that I’d have anything against that.

Groot says “I congratulate your clear explications of the situation.” And “Digging through the sludge of lies, misinformation and self-dealing delusions to find some truth is hard enough in English about our own country, and beyond the patience or interest of almost everybody in the US about some foreign impoverished disaster.” Thank you. When I first read Revel’s idea that the main force that moves the world is lies I was disgusted. But I am surprised at how easy it is for disinformation about all sorts of subjects to take root everywhere.

rcocean says “I thought 500 years after Queen Isabella it was a homogeneous country.” A very common misconception. Almost everything people think they know about Spanish history is the exact opposite of the truth, far-fetched as that sounds.

the bandit says “What puzzles me is how you can list so many reasons why Catalonia is a cancer to Spain and still want to keep it.” I have explicitly said “I am not against independence per se. I do believe that it may be good in some cases. Yes, maybe even in the Catalan case.” But that doesn’t matter, I make a question that doesn’t fit into the Redcoats-Minutemen template and then, of course, I must want to keep Catalonia. I have not said that. I do not think that. But it doesn’t matter, the question has to remain unaddressed. Because “independence” is just a trigger word and once it is uttered, all a human being can say is “let them go”. Nothing else matters.

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 03, 2015 4:49 PM  

luagha you say “I don't see Spain's positon in the PIIGS directly addressed. Where are they at? Are they still threatening collapse, just a little more in the future? ” Strictly looking at macro numbers things are not as bad as four years ago, but reforms have been insignificant compared to what the nation needed. The conservatives have squandered 4 years with pseudo-reforms. What next? This is extremely difficult to tell right now. I was just telling some friend the other day that the coming presidential elections this December are the very first ones when I have no idea what people will vote. And this election won’t be just another charade of two wings of the same bird of prey. Unlike in the US, we have 2 large parties but also a large number of minority parties that have seats in parliament and sometimes are crucial to constitute the executive cabinet of ministers. And some very, very new parties have been created that already have gained seats at regional and local elections. Very probably the next national government will consist of some sort of coalition in which some old party will have to share power with one of these brand-new parties. Will that be old-center-left with radical left or old-center-right with new right or contranatura alliances? We might even have the Catalanists in the coalition. Popcorn galore! Ask me again around Christmas.

You also ask “What is Catalonia's plan to deal with that debt in case of secession?” The Catalanists don’t have a plan about anything. One of the many things that I didn’t mention and it is also fundamental to understand this whole mess is this: the Catalanist leaders are the people least interested in independence. This is a monumental scam gone wrong. For decades the Calananists played the game I’ve described with the electoral law, tax system and corruption schemes. Nobody in the nation has more to gain from keeping the status quo than the Catalanist elite. But when there is a huge economic crisis and the national government has to tighten the belt and the national government has given you everything that it constitutionally could and then a gazillion more things (police, TVs, education, health, some railroads, a growing % of tax revenue, enormous money transfers, positions in high places for your pals, keeping you out of jail, contracts for your croony corporations etc..) what else can you ask for? Worse, obviously the European Union has called dibs on what little sovereignty Spain has left. But your population is fantasized with your radicalized education system and media conglomerate, they are addicted to the “Madrid is stealing from us” so you have to keep pushing. Even worse, the national media and the judiciary and the police can no longer keep covering the many, many political scandals you’ve indulged in so you need, you desperately need to distract the people. This is what in Spain we call “Huir hacia adelante” (to flee forward), perhaps we could translate it as kicking the can down the road at high speed, speeding up actually. They have no plan. And to top it all, top ranking Catalan leaders have told me in conversations that they could push for all this because, of course, of course, Madrid would stop them. The parliament would stop them. The Spanish conservatives would stop them. The King would stop them. And if it all failed, the higher courts in the nation would say that all these new pushes were obviously unconstitutional. In Gamespeak, the slutty wife, so to speak, in her ultimate shit test overestimated the husband’s alphaness.

Steve asks about the TV ad “That actually ran on TV? ” it was intended for youth organizations but yes it ran on TV.

Blogger Cail Corishev October 03, 2015 5:07 PM  

Antonio, you're welcome. It probably helps that I couldn't find "Catalan" on a map beyond being fairly sure it's in Spain, so I had no choice but to stick to the question I knew something about.

Blogger the bandit October 03, 2015 5:21 PM  

"I make a question that doesn’t fit into the Redcoats-Minutemen template and then, of course, I must want to keep Catalonia."

Fair enough. I had noted where you said you weren't opposed, per se. I also noted a lot of angst that the right so often supports their secession, that they don't care about the nuances of an internecine political struggle in a country an ocean away.

I don't think Americans fail to answer your question as much as you believe. I feel like you fail to hear their answer, because it's you, not us, who immediately shades the answer with a Redcoats-Minutemen template.

Read all the answers above. Where are all the Redcoats and Minutemen in the "let them go" responses? I saw people relate them to Quebec, Scotland, cancer, worthless grown kids getting kicked out of the home, and (in my case) New York and California.

But you laid the Redcoat template onto my comment, anyway. I did not say that. I do not think that. But the moment I said something to the effect of "let them go," my answer had to be based on Redcoats and Minutemen. Why?

It seems like on some level what you desire in an American rightwing response is just an excoriating diatribe on their leftism and suicidal policies. But you already provided that for us here. And our response was, "So cut them off, and let them die, before their sickness kills you."

Sometimes the worst thing you can do to someone is give them what they claim to want. If Catalonia is the slutty leftist wife of Spain, sounds like it's about time for the rightwing to pull some Agree & Amplify and Dread Game, my friend.

OpenID Jack Amok October 03, 2015 5:33 PM  

they didn’t want to appear as tax collectors to their people: let Madrid play bad cop and then let the Catalan politicians go to Madrid and sell their votes for money.

The quote above makes it pretty clear the leaders in Catalonia are already selling out the Catalonian people, but they're able to pin the blame on Madrid. Independence means they'll have a much better chance of being held accountable for their failures. As Danby said, it means they pay their own way.

It means I am independent from them too.

And it means their leaders have to own their failures, they can't blame it on you any longer. Not without going to war anyway..

Blogger Harold October 03, 2015 5:44 PM  

I find that leftists support all independence movements but one. Ever last one them thinks that an already independent nation, Taiwan, should be part of Red China.

OpenID Steve October 03, 2015 6:02 PM  

Steve asks about the TV ad “That actually ran on TV? ” it was intended for youth organizations but yes it ran on TV

Its BigGaySteve- I am surprised the feminists didn't think the guy taking the toupee off before having sex was rape.

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 03, 2015 6:12 PM  

the bandit: “Read all the answers above. Where are all the Redcoats and Minutemen in the "let them go" responses? I saw people relate them to Quebec, Scotland, cancer, worthless grown kids getting kicked out of the home, and (in my case) New York and California.” And ““But you laid the Redcoat template onto my comment, anyway. I did not say that.”” The only reason why I emailed Vox was to ask a particular question. And many people, you included, did not even acknowledge the question. Obviously, Cail and others did. And I thank them for that. Those who didn’t simply resorted to “independence is so much better”—as it seems to me you did in your first comment—. And that attitude I labeled as Minutemen-Redcoats. Not in the sense that you explicitly mentioned 1776 nouns and only 1776 nouns, but because you behaved exactly in the way that led me to ask the question in the first place: to mischaracterize or even completely dismiss the facts in a non-answer. Even if that non-answer does answer a question that I never asked and it happens to be an answer that I agree with.

You say: And our response was, "So cut them off, and let them die, before their sickness kills you." Precisely. And I may very much agree with your response, but that is not at all what I was asking.

I have absolutely no “angst that the right so often supports their secession”. None at all. I am even perfectly willing to contemplate the view that a genuine coherent right might have to support secession each and every time, leading to secession at the individual level. No problem. Guess what: not what I was asking.

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 03, 2015 6:16 PM  

Harold says "I find that leftists support all independence movements but one. Ever last one them thinks that an already independent nation, Taiwan, should be part of Red China."

You are so wrong. Catalanist (left and right) obviously are against the independence of those Catalan regions, like the Val d'Aran, that do not want to be part of an independent Catalonia. Obviously. That goes without saying. And obviously they are radically opposed that Catalan-influenced regions like Valencia, Baleares and Southern France should be independent from Catalonia.

Blogger Tommy Hass October 03, 2015 6:17 PM  

"Quebec is indeed leftist in some ways but at least they are on the "right" in terms of wanting to preserve their culture. For example, the Quebecois are overwhelmingly in favor of banning the Niqab."

That's not "preserving your culture" that's being a petty little shit. The number of Muslims wearing Niqab is stupidly small. Muslims themselves are a minorily themselves.

In other words, ony a retard would pretend that not banning a veil would destroy Quebeqois culture.

Blogger Danby October 03, 2015 6:44 PM  

@Tommy Hatred
Banning the veil is specifically a demand that Moslems assimilate. You don't get to opt out of our culture. If you want to live in a tent and be beaten by a sweaty man, stay home in your 3rd world scorpion-infested dungheap. You want the benefits of living in our society, then live by our rules.

Blogger luagha October 03, 2015 7:20 PM  

Thanks very much for your answers, MT/ Antonio.

As you can tell, what you get here on Vox Popoli is very different from what you will get in the 'generic blogosphere.'
We have a lot of different views and different filters.

Americans in general are also widely spread and will have different filters. Most up-and-coming Americans don't know our own history of our own Civil War - in grade school they are taught wrong and over-sanitized versions of it. Southerners will learn a lot more. When one gets to college one might learn more after that in a real history class if you go to a quality college. And so on.

Someone in the blogosphere who is highly educated on the American Civil War, or who indulges in alternate history fiction, will know a lot more about real outcomes historically of secession movements and how countries break apart or stick together. That's closer to what you are likely to get here.

To take a shot at answering your question, I would say that Americans who haven't studied the real reasons for the American Civil War and how and why it played out the way it did - the bad things the North was doing to the South and the bad things the South was doing back and the legal framework they were working in and the actions of the surrounding world - will default to that totally wrong Redcoat-template.

They will only have the American Revolutionary War to work with in their heads, and that is taught much more in our schools.

If they study and have access to information and are a person who has the ability to act upon information they receive, I would think they'd get past the Redcoat idea.

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 03, 2015 7:23 PM  

The Other Robot “I don't know if Lincoln was from the American Right, but he was a Republican, so there is that.” Indeed interesting. US independence peachy. Scottish independence peachy. Irish independence peachy. Taiwan independence peachy. Catalan independence peachy. Ukrainian independence peachy. Hell, Bajoran independence peachy! Confederate independence pure evil.

And “I suspect they will go crawling back to Madrid asking for the old arrangement.” This is what I suspect. The first time a good friend of mine from Madrid told me “Independence no, we must expel them.” I said “within two generations they’ll be knocking at our door.” And if in the meanwhile we have violence once again because of this off-the-wall petty politics, we’ll have to ask ourselves: what was that blood shed for?

You also say “Surely the American Revolution was very different from a secession. I have this, perhaps mistaken, impression that there is a large body of water between England and the American Colonies.” Sorry, you lost me there completely. Is this sarcasm? The Declaration of Independence was not about secession because there was water rather than hills and plains between king and colonists?

Blogger Jim Milo October 03, 2015 7:29 PM  

@7 Jake, the feeling about Westerners is mutual with Maritimers who FIFO to work in Ft. McMoney (when the petrodollar is high, of course). Maybe this time you can freeze in the dark? :)


As for Quebec, I like francophones (and am one, as an Acadian) because they really screw up the Oppression Olympics, but the Code Civil and bureaucracy make me wonder why anyone would open a business there.

In other news, the Saint John Irving refinery is in the middle of retooling and will be back on November 15th. Let's get that pipe built!

Blogger Jim Milo October 03, 2015 7:35 PM  

@17 Actually it'seems only that you don'the get a free name change with a wedding licence like other jurisdictions.

You are not banned from taking your husband's surname but it costs $135.

Blogger the bandit October 03, 2015 7:41 PM  

OK, Antonio. I will try one more time to express my answer to your question:

"But my question is: why does the American right persist in speaking of these movements as if these European independentists actually held the ideals of 1776?"

My Answer: "We don't."

The American Right favors separatism regardless of the held beliefs of the separatists. The reason we do so is because (more or less) the American Right holds the ideals of 1776, so it's completely understandable how this would be confused, especially when you add what Cail Corishev described (our own confusion of where and how these ideals can be applied) into the mix. But supporting separatists on account of OUR ideals is not the same as supporting separatists because we believe they hold our ideals. The American Right will certainly invoke the ideals of 1776 in any expressions of support, because that is why they support; but invoking the ideals on behalf of the separatists doesn't insist that the separatists themselves hold those same ideals.

Caveat: Maybe some---even a lot---do. You have a lot more experience with this because it matters to you, while most of the American Right hasn't even heard of Catalonia. It's not an important issue to us, and so we won't be equipped for nor have an interest in a nuanced discussion about it---and that probably plays into your impression, too. Additionally, a lot of the American Right (falsely) believes the desire for freedom is universal, not cultural, and that all men will move toward liberty if given the chance via the ideals of 1776.

I'm not one of them. To the extent that you misunderstand my response, perhaps you misunderstand others. There's no way for me to know.

Blogger Jim Milo October 03, 2015 7:49 PM  

@47 @52 That ad is actually considered child porn under current Canadian law (Butler, which used Dworkin and McKinnon as acedemic authorities and the same one that nails manga fans who cross into Canada when they search phones and laptops). But it was available to watch here...

Blogger Jim Milo October 03, 2015 7:53 PM  

Oh, as for the niquab, you can thank Lyndon Crosbie for that one. The ruling 'conservatives' brought The Wizard of Oz in because they are being badly beaten. Here in the Maritimers the central party has written off most of the ridings because of bone head unemployment insurance changes (which people pay into, but Harper and company pretends is a gibsmedat).

Blogger oguns October 03, 2015 8:07 PM  

32. Anthony October 03, 2015 1:59 PM

Another reason for the Right to support Catalan (and Scottish, Quebecois, etc.) independence is that more conservative parties will emerge after independence.
-------
In the case of Quebec, it is already the case that where the french rule is complete and unchallenged, you actually find a true diversity of political opinions. There is a strong current of rightwing thinking in Quebec City, a close to 100% french Quebecois region. In contrast, Quebecois from Montreal live with the English and the immigrants and their politics are all about leftism and oppression.

- ogunsiron

Blogger oguns October 03, 2015 8:09 PM  

Is the author of the letter a Valencian ? Valencians are basically rightwing, pro-Spain catalans and the mainstream catalans don't get along with them

- ogunsiron

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 03, 2015 8:33 PM  

oguns says "Is the author of the letter a Valencian ? Valencians are basically rightwing, pro-Spain catalans and the mainstream catalans don't get along with them"

The president of the Valencian region is a Socialist governing with the support of Communists and Catalanists. http://www.levante-emv.com/comunitat-valenciana/2015/06/25/ximo-puig-presidente/1283239.html

I've given unmistakable details about the town where I was born.

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 03, 2015 8:45 PM  

the bandit now we are getting somewhere. You say that the answer to my question is “we don’t [persist in speaking of these movements as if these European independentists actually held the ideals of 1776]”. And I acknowledge that you don’t and that others here don’t either. I sent Vox the email asking this because of the many conversations I’ve had, articles I’ve read, radio shows I’ve heard, this had never been the case. The difference today I imagine is two-fold: instead of articles I read or shows I hear, these have been answers after I’ve had time to express a rather loooong series of facts that are diametrically opposed to the disinformation that most news outlets broadcast. And secondly, commenters here are not like most people in terms of knowledge, analytical skills, and manners.

You say “a lot of the American Right (falsely) believes the desire for freedom is universal, not cultural, and that all men will move toward liberty if given the chance via the ideals of 1776” and I agree completely with you.

Blogger Harold October 03, 2015 10:06 PM  

@54 I should have specified American leftists.

Blogger rcocean October 03, 2015 10:07 PM  

Most Americans think that self-determination is an objective good. Of course it can abused and taken to an extreme. No one believes that a city or country should be allowed to "secede" - that would lead to anarchy. That fact that ever y single independence movement isn't 100 percent correct or will lead to an improvement in everyone's life is a given and doesn't obviate the general principle. In the past, the primary reason for centralization was defense. Germany, for instance, couldn't remain a bunch of separate smaller states when the French were constantly using them as a battlefield. Today, that excuse for centralization doesn't apply. Let a 1000 flowers bloom.

Blogger rcocean October 03, 2015 10:09 PM  

As Puerto Rico they should have given their independence 50 years ago. In fact, its not clear why we took them in the first place. People like Gerald Ford wanted to make them a state, and Republican dummies like Dole and McCain oppose PR independence. Just more proof of the stupidity of the right.

Blogger Groot October 03, 2015 11:21 PM  

@67. Antonio From Spain:
"'the desire for freedom is universal, not cultural'"

I believe there is some consensus here that a yearning for freedom is not universal, but there has been some discussion that perhaps it extends beyond culture, and relies somehow on genetic predispositions. I am curious as to your opinion on how much an absence of liberty in the culture and politics of Latin Europe, and particularly in Hispanic and Hispanic-America culture and politics, is due to either:

(a) simply being out of the centuries-long conversation within the Anglosphere about Liberty, or
(b) some genetic authority-accepting tendency, or
(c) something else, such as Catholicism vs. Protestantism.

Blogger Tom Kratman October 04, 2015 12:41 AM  

The proper response, Antonio, is to let Catalonia go, to let them break the social contract between themselves and Spain, and then to declare war, invade, reconsider the place and hang as many of those who need a good dose of hanging as required. As you describe it, the alternative is to create a third world infested dump that will not stay localized. You have no moral obligation to leave in independence a crew whose independence is a threat to you, any more than, in war, you must respect the neutrality of a state that refuses to defend itself from your enemy if he is using the territory of that state.

Blogger maniacprovost October 04, 2015 12:55 AM  

The only obvious drawback to Western European secessions right now is that there is another war with Islam looming. It sounds like Catalonia could be a weak point in the defenses, either as a weak point for invasion or as a harbor like the Afghan / Pakistan border.

Blogger Tom Kratman October 04, 2015 1:35 AM  

Yuck tablets. That reconsider was supposed to be 're conquer.

Blogger Tom Kratman October 04, 2015 1:35 AM  

And that yuck was f.u.c.k.

Blogger buzzardist October 04, 2015 6:04 AM  

I generally favor separatist, independence movements, whether in Catalonia, Quebec, Scotland, or elsewhere, because I hold the view that people who view themselves culturally, linguistically, geographically, and otherwise independent ought to be independent. Leaving people to be ruled over from afar inevitably produces problems.

Of course, in the cases of Catalonia, Quebec, and Scotland, the independent countries would probably fail spectacularly because they'd pursue the socialist policies that they thought were so wonderful when they had the rest of a larger country's resources to prop them up. But that's neither here nor there. They want to rule themselves, so let them. The certainty of their failure is no reason to rule over people with an iron fist from afar. Catalan people are not infants, and it's patronizing to tell them that they can't make their own decisions at the governmental level.

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 04, 2015 9:34 AM  

Groot. When I agree with the bandit’s statement that “a lot of the American Right (falsely) believes the desire for freedom is universal, not cultural, and that all men will move toward liberty if given the chance via the ideals of 1776” I do not think that Spaniards are less inclined to liberty than Americans. At all.

What I think is that Americans gigantically overestimate their inclination to liberty. And here I must say: I think they overestimate their own and also that of their ancestors. Although the former are more alien to it than the latter.

Furthermore, I do not mistake pro-independence with a “move toward liberty if given the chance via the ideals of 1776.” After all, if Catalanism was a move toward liberty in the style of 1776, wouldn’t they be perfectly willing to tolerate a Val d’Aran that separated from them? Let alone respect the independence of regions like Valencia and Baleares and Southern France which they persistently refer to as the Catalan Countries, without any historic or demographic base?

If there is a difference in predisposition towards liberty based on genetics or culture, I do not think Spaniards have any less of it than other peoples. I could spend days giving you examples, here is one: we’ve all heard about the crucial importance among English-speaking peoples of the documents known as Magna Carta in limiting the power of kings. But Spain had actually a multitude of very similar documents as early as 1017, in most of Spain they are known as “fueros”, from the Latin word forum. The “fueros” of Barcelona are known as “usatges”. They existed and were enforced for many centuries. But, after all, we live in an age of Anglo hegemony and it is only natural that a traditional adversary of England is so utterly misunderstood. And I say this with no animosity towards the English-speaking peoples.

When a Spanish king was proclaimed (they are not crowned, they are proclaimed by the Cortes, that is, the parliament since Visigoth times) he had to go from region to region, from town to town to swear his allegiance to the particular fuero of that place and then he could add the corresponding title to his name: King Whoever, lord of this place and master of that one… because he had specifically sworn that. In Leon they began thus: “We who are as much as you are, and together are more than you are…” Meaning, we the people, who are as much as you are because we are all sons of God, and together we are more because we are many whereas you are only one.

In Aragon they began thus: “We who are worth as much as you, swear in your presence that you are not better than us, that we accept you as king and sovereign so long as you respect our liberties and laws, but not otherwise”

And then the specific laws and liberties of the particular region were enumerated. And the king listened and agreed. And then and only then could he consider himself sovereign of that place, and as the Aragonese fueros say, “but otherwise not”.

This is a system that was in place during the 770 year Reconquista and beyond. With all due respect, I do not believe that the US Constitution, Bill of Rights included (inspired in documents like these are they are) would have been able to sustain a civilization for so long, unaffected, remaining enforced for generations in the exact way in which they were originally intended, in the middle of such a long struggle in which the very existence of that civilization was at risk. Of course, there were some changes over time in the fueros, but not the precipitous degradation that we’ve seen in the American system’s fidelity to its own founding documents and legal framework.

But of course, how can we compare the Americans’ love of freedom (of whatever year) to that of Spaniards of 1200 if we know exactly nothing of how those alien Spaniards lived, how they organized themselves, what challenges they were facing, how true their system remained to the laws of the land, and for how long that fidelity to liberty-guarding laws was effectively enforced?

Blogger Unknown October 04, 2015 10:30 AM  

An interesting interview with Prof. Marco Basani:

"Cataluña might be richer than some areas of Spain, but she is paying such a disproportionate share of taxation that her legitimate claim to her own wealth are denied by the system."
http://www.abbevilleinstitute.org/blog/catalan-independence-an-interview-with-marco-bassani/

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 04, 2015 11:08 AM  

72. Tom Kratman. I think there was ample room to defuse this mess in a civilized manner. I am not entirely convinced it is too late, despite the ugly look of it all. Mostly, because, like I said in replying luagha “the Catalanist leaders are the people least interested in independence. This is a monumental scam gone wrong.” No less than a Spanish minister recently wrote an opinion piece in an internet newspaper openly speaking about Spain getting a new constitution next year. It should have made headlines but, of course, that gets lost among all the Catalanist noise. It may very well be that all the rage after the elections of this December will be about “el proceso constituyente” to draft such document for Spain, Catalonia verily included. Who will be the idiots writing it and what sort of PC crap they’ll dump on it is another matter. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the very Catalanist leaders who shout about independence today had already been involved this past summer in drafting it in cahoots with the present Spanish government.

So absolutely no one in power is considering military action. A Spanish general dared suggest that the armed forces had the constitutional duty to defend unity and he was severely reprimanded. He said that every man in the armed forces had actually explicitly sworn that. Another one said that Spain predates the constitution so even if the constitution didn’t say it, it would still be the right thing to do. He was also quickly silenced. And that is because of the way Spaniards remember the immediate past of these last three centuries which have had a lot of bloodshed in internal fights (even though those were not related to centralist/secessionists disputes but other things).

These declarations came in the context of a debate around Section 155.1 of the Constitution:
If a Self-governing Community does not fulfil the obligations imposed upon it by the Constitution or other laws, or acts in a way that is seriously prejudicial to the general interest of Spain, the Government, after having lodged a complaint with the President of the Self-governing Community and failed to receive satisfaction therefore, may, following approval granted by the overall majority of the Senate, take all measures necessary to compel the Community to meet said obligations, or to protect the abovementioned general interest.
http://www.congreso.es/portal/page/portal/Congreso/Congreso/Hist_Normas/Norm/const_espa_texto_ingles_0.pdf

When a Spanish politician who was at the time a Vice-president of the European Parliament dared mention this Section of the Spanish Constitution, another high-ranking (not Spanish) Eurocrat mounted in rage shouting at him in Spanish “¡Vergüenza! ¡Vergüenza!” (Shame on you! Shame on you!) Apparently elsewhere they have constitutions saying “hey, regions, leave whenever you please” and when you join the armed forces you swear “and if someone pushes for secession, so be it.”

Blogger Groot October 04, 2015 3:00 PM  

@77. Antonio From Spain:
"What I think is that Americans gigantically overestimate their inclination to liberty."

I find your answer reassuring. Surely, it would make any struggle towards liberty infinitely harder if none desired it. I also know what a fluke it was that the liberty-loving contingent in America rose briefly to power at the crucial moment to write the Constitution. The more history I read, the more important history seems: the men, the decisions, the accidents, the weather, what your neighbors do, things tipping this way rather than that.

The broad sweep of history highlights how circumstances of the moment can so easily swamp the diffuse desire for liberty, and how tenacious is the urge for centralization and corruption. But reading history also puts the spotlight on individuals and the ability for just one human to make an impact. That is more inspiring.

I also note that we share the tendency, when discussing history, to think of the "last three centuries" as being the "immediate past."

Blogger The Other Robot October 04, 2015 4:16 PM  

You also say “Surely the American Revolution was very different from a secession. I have this, perhaps mistaken, impression that there is a large body of water between England and the American Colonies.” Sorry, you lost me there completely. Is this sarcasm? The Declaration of Independence was not about secession because there was water rather than hills and plains between king and colonists?

I consider the American War of Independence (American Revolution, call it what you want) very different that the War Between the States (War of Northern Aggression, call it what you want.)

To me, the American War of Independence is more akin to other wars of independence between colonial powers and their colonies.

On the other hand, the War between the States was, in my mind, a secessionary war between two parts of a formerly well-established polity.

I guess I would consider a civil war, like the Spanish Civil War, to be different yet again, being largely a struggle between two (or more) different factions for control over the whole territory of the polity.

Blogger Floyd Looney October 04, 2015 5:30 PM  

I don't have that view of conservatism at all. I thought Scottish independence was a stupid idea for a lot of reasons. Pointless too, since they would just stay within the EU.

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 04, 2015 5:57 PM  

81. The Other Robot I understand your choice of words now and I think it's a very pertinent distinction. Very good.

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 04, 2015 6:46 PM  

Salt said “Americans can often be summed by Hollywood.” I realize this is an excellent point that I had missed the first time I read the comments. But with Hollywood having a world-wide influence, in many ways we can just say people rather than Americans, or at least, people in developed nations.

And "inside every [gook] there is an American trying to get out." Spot on.

Blogger Tom Kratman October 04, 2015 11:13 PM  

Oh, I don't expect Spain to actually do it, Antonio. I just think they should.

Blogger Tom Kratman October 04, 2015 11:13 PM  

Oh, I don't expect Spain to actually do it, Antonio. I just think they should.

Blogger Spirit of Truth October 05, 2015 12:23 AM  

No one speaks for the status quo. I will. 750,000 Americans died discussing secession of the South. India became a nation, then two, then three at a cost of a million lives and 40,000,000 refugees. Africa cast off the colonial powers and millions died, billions stolen by the new governments general destruction and untold misery. Some are successful, such as Israel seceding from Palestine and remaining on a war footing ever since. If secessionist movements start into action millions will die millions will be refugees and some movements will succeed, some will not. Will the people involved be happier after the dust is settled?
Jesus advised "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's." Caesar was a despot who killed people for fun. (See Romans 13 for commentary) The Jews disagreed with Jesus, suffered a million dead, the rest were enslaved, and the survivors, the diaspora, exiled for 1800 years. There is a lot to be said for suffering with the devil you know.

Blogger Spirit of Truth October 05, 2015 12:23 AM  

No one speaks for the status quo. I will. 750,000 Americans died discussing secession of the South. India became a nation, then two, then three at a cost of a million lives and 40,000,000 refugees. Africa cast off the colonial powers and millions died, billions stolen by the new governments general destruction and untold misery. Some are successful, such as Israel seceding from Palestine and remaining on a war footing ever since. If secessionist movements start into action millions will die millions will be refugees and some movements will succeed, some will not. Will the people involved be happier after the dust is settled?
Jesus advised "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's." Caesar was a despot who killed people for fun. (See Romans 13 for commentary) The Jews disagreed with Jesus, suffered a million dead, the rest were enslaved, and the survivors, the diaspora, exiled for 1800 years. There is a lot to be said for suffering with the devil you know.

OpenID Jack Amok October 05, 2015 1:03 AM  

I do not think that Spaniards are less inclined to liberty than Americans. At all.

What I think is that Americans gigantically overestimate their inclination to liberty.


Yes and no, Antonio. Americans are actually more inclined to liberty than most other nations, but those inclined to liberty are still a minority in America and those so inclined absolutely do drastically overestimate how much other people - Americans and Spaniards and everyone else too - want liberty. Most people don't want to be responsible for their own screw-ups - the idea that they will suffer if they make the wrong decision is psychologically paralyzing to them. The genetics for being able to handle that sort of accountability exist in higher numbers in Americans because there was a lot of self-selection going on, but it's been diluted over the generations by a different sort of immigrant, and it never existed in large numbers among women. We've let both groups vote. Now liberty lovers are a smallish percentage of the voting population.

OpenID Jack Amok October 05, 2015 1:05 AM  

There is a lot to be said for suffering with the devil you know.

Then go suffer with him, but don't insist that I suffer along with you.

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau October 05, 2015 9:17 AM  

Weren't most of the Atrocities against the Clergy and Economic Conservatives in the 1937 Civil War done behind the lines in Communist Republican Catalan? I could see jails and Gulags for dissenters if they go independent again and this time there is no Franco to rescue Spain.

OpenID gregq October 05, 2015 12:39 PM  

Personally, I just want to see all those "independence" movements rip Europe to shreds. And forcing leftists to have their own countries, where they can't live off Other People's Money, and so collapse into destruction and despair? Priceless.

In short, this member of the American Right doesn't support "independence" movements because I like them, but because I hate the countries they're coming from.

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 05, 2015 1:23 PM  

91. Skylark Thibedeau “Weren't most of the Atrocities against the Clergy and Economic Conservatives in the 1937 Civil War done behind the lines in Communist Republican Catalan?”

The atrocities actually started in 1934 in Asturias, the Basque Provinces, and Catalonia with the Spanish leftists clamoring in the press and in the parliament about the need to start a civil war to “eliminate the bourgeois class” (that was, among others, the PSOE, the same party that now leads the parliamentary minority and has ruled Spain in recent years) after the center-right cleanly and legally won the democratic elections of November 1933. Then events quickly deteriorated as the left engaged in textbook agitprop accusing the government of extremely harsh repression against the leftists rebels. All over Spain, libraries with centuries-old originals were burned down, churches were profaned, nuns were raped, conservative leaders were murdered—and all this in the biennium before Franco’s National Uprising of July 18th, 1936. As the situation was spiraling out of control, Franco repeatedly refused to rebel, despite several generals pleading him to. He argued in several letters that he had sworn allegiance to the Republic (true). And that Spain had a Republic because king Alfonso XIII had voluntarily left the nation in 1931 so it could peacefully become a Republic (also true). So, you see, when the atrocities began two years before the war, there was “no Franco to rescue Spain” either.

Many Catalanists love to mourn the loss of the “democratic” Second Spanish Republic that Franco eventually fought against. You can visit the Museu d’Historia Nacional de Catalunya in Barcelona and see how the Second Republic is portrayed as such a wonderful place. It’s cartoonish. The leader of the Catalan regional government during the Second Republic one day in 1934 unilaterally declared the “Catalan State of the Spanish Federal Republic”. Which was absolutely incompatible with the non-Federal constitution of the Spanish Republic. There was no Spanish Federal Republic to begin with. For this, he was jailed aboard the prison-ship Uruguay by the Second Republic. And then he faced a trial during the Second Republic and was sentenced to 30 years. He was later set free and fled abroad, and was eventually executed in Franco times.

Also, one of the reasons why the leftists lost Barcelona to Franco (while Madrid, Valencia, and a few other regions remained Red for a few more months) was that since 1937 the Stalinists engaged in an open armed conflict against their allies, particularly the anarchists. The Cheka tortured to death and illegally executed many leaders of their own allies, others being disappeared forever like Andreu Nin. There are other reasons, like the idiotic policy of enforcing a moneyless economy on an industrialized region in the middle of a devastating war.

Blogger oguns October 05, 2015 10:31 PM  

@Antonio From Spain,
I had gotten my impression about the political divide between Valencia and the rest of the Catalan sphere from Spaniard acquaintances of mine (who were Barcelonese and not too fond of Spain as a country). I guess that I was slightly misinformed. Thanks for the sharing of your insights!

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 06, 2015 9:33 AM  

94. oguns, you are very welcome. And forgive me because I realize I was a bit too snappy in my reply. I must admit that your idea about Valencians is quite widespread, perhaps even among themselves. So let’s check key facts:

1. During the Civil War, Valencia remained Red until the very end. Longer than Barcelona. http://apuntes.santanderlasalle.es/historia_2/webs_historia/almacen/guerra_civil_02.jpg

2. In this present democratic period, Valencia had a Socialist government from 1982 to 1995. https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidente_de_la_Generalidad_Valenciana#Listado_de_presidentes


3. And like I said, now in June 2015 they’ve elected a Socialist again who governs a minority cabinet with the support of Communists and Catalanists.

In any case, about where I am from: https://books.google.es/books?id=70KyBgAAQBAJ&q=sviatoi+pavel+visited+konstantsiia#v=snippet&q=sviatoi%20pavel%20visited%20konstantsiia&f=false

Blogger Tom Kratman October 06, 2015 10:49 AM  

Obviously, Franco failed in his duty to kill enough reds.

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