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Tuesday, October 20, 2015

The irrelevance of college

TK observes that a university education is simply not relevant for an increasing number of jobs today:
I just spent some time with one of my oldest friends who did electronic maintenance in the army and afterwards designed PCBs. For the past 12 years he's been driving a cab in San Diego and loving it.

Since since uber, et al., came to town, however, they have destroyed his ability to make a living wage as a cab driver (most uber drivers drive part-time, for drug and beer money (more true than not) and with a zero barrier to entry there are too many cars on the road now. Yay free market - I mean it. I think it's great!). So he decided to get back into PCB design.

He spent the last six months updating his skills 100% online. In just the past month he contacted a recruiting agency and began setting up interviews. The other day while I was visiting him, from just his second interview, he was offered a job for $32/hr! After he passes his first certification in February he will get a significant bump in pay and when he passes his second certification in October his salary should move into the low six figures.

He is 54 and has been out of the field for 12 years and has NO college degree!

Yet he was able to bring himself back up to speed in less than 6 months using just the internet. His employers didn't even care that his only formal training was in the army - 30 years ago!
You can always tell the difference between a job that requires real work and a pseudo-job that doesn't. If they give a damn about university credentials, it's the latter.

Labels:

128 Comments:

Blogger James Dixon October 20, 2015 9:04 AM  

> You can always tell the difference between a job that requires real work and a pseudo-job that doesn't. If they give a damn about university credentials, it's the latter.

Partially true. But some companies simply require a college degree for pretty much everything, whether it should require it or not. Yeah, those tend to be poorly run companies, but there are a lot of poorly run companies out there.

Blogger Finrod October 20, 2015 9:09 AM  

My experience has been just the opposite. Employers seem to be less interested in my 20 years experience in the field and more interested in what pretty pieces of paper I possess. Crazy way to do business.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 20, 2015 9:10 AM  

Roosh wrote about the uselessness of his college time a few weeks ago. As Simmons wrote "women ruin everything. "

Blogger VD October 20, 2015 9:11 AM  

But some companies simply require a college degree for pretty much everything, whether it should require it or not.

Which means those companies don't require any actual work in those jobs.

Blogger Dexter October 20, 2015 9:11 AM  

We still design PCBs in America? Thought all that went overseas a long time ago.

Blogger VD October 20, 2015 9:11 AM  

Employers seem to be less interested in my 20 years experience in the field and more interested in what pretty pieces of paper I possess.

You're dealing with the wrong type of companies.

Blogger Nate October 20, 2015 9:23 AM  

"My experience has been just the opposite. Employers seem to be less interested in my 20 years experience in the field and more interested in what pretty pieces of paper I possess. Crazy way to do business."

That's because they aren't doing business. they are not looking for production. They are looking for good little fellows who will jump through all their hoops on demand and not make anyone uncomfortable.

That's what a college degree provides.

Blogger Joeplanet October 20, 2015 9:23 AM  

Credentialsm is another form of gatekeeping

Blogger Darth Toolpodicus (#144) October 20, 2015 9:25 AM  

Wow...low six figures for a PCA layout guy?!? That is a *really* good gig. Unless he is actually doing the circuit design too, but that is still very good comp. Layout guys make a good buck, but normally more like 50 - 75k...most companies don't have their engineers actually doing board layouts, so they use CAD/Layout guys instead.

Blogger Thomas Davidsmeier October 20, 2015 9:27 AM  

And all the kids I teach think they have to go to college no matter what. I ask them what they are going to study and why, and I want to cry. Only the ones that want to be doctors and engineers are thinking at all about marketability and actual value of the degree, and even half those kids just want to be those things because someone else told them they should.

As I often ask my classes, "Who is going to grow the food?"

I think the answer is nobody, and we all starve.

If only I could sell my underwater mortgage house and move further out to a farm. And build a wall. And a moat. With alligators. And pillboxes.

OpenID would-be-tellin October 20, 2015 9:30 AM  

We still design PCBs in America? Thought all that went overseas a long time ago.

Design, yes. Fabricate and populate with parts, generally not.

Blogger Noah B #120 October 20, 2015 9:39 AM  

Even worse, colleges tend to look down on skills like this that have serious real-world applicability as well as anything resembling entrepreneurship. Most STEM professors are career academics who only know how to lead students on a pathway to academia.

I'm working as an engineer in fields I didn't formally study at all. I could have done what I'm doing just as well right out of high school. The requirement for credentials is insanely crippling to the economy and does little to ensure that professionals are actually competent.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus October 20, 2015 9:40 AM  

You can always tell the difference between a job that requires real work and a pseudo-job that doesn't. If they give a damn about university credentials, it's the latter.

Partially true. Some things you can't really just "pick up from the internet." Even though this guy got back into his industry after 12 years out of it by spending six months re-upping his certs, let's not forget that he was only able to do this because he had already previously acquired the pertinent education in his field. I can guarantee you this guy wouldn't be where he's at if he were just some schlub with a GED who got a few certs off the internet and then started interviewing.

College (or at least something approximating that level of education, even if you toss out all the extraneities) is necessary for some things. You're not going to become a physicist or a chemist or an engineer or a mathematician by just reading stuff off of Wikipedia or whatever. However, in other fields, college is not (or at least not as) necessary. Depends on the field, case by case.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus October 20, 2015 9:44 AM  

Roosh wrote about the uselessness of his college time a few weeks ago. As Simmons wrote "women ruin everything. "

Well, folks who want to get into highly technical fields still do need to get the education. That education may not (and increasingly does not) come from a "traditional" college environment, but it does need to come from somewhere.

Blogger Darth Toolpodicus (#144) October 20, 2015 9:45 AM  

"Design, yes. Fabricate and populate with parts, generally not"

This is generally only true for really high volume pcas. Lots of bare board suppliers in the US, and big board fabrication houses in the US like Epic, Matric, Kimball, etc. If it's not a cell phone or pc there's a decent chance the board was fabbed in the US.

Blogger JartStar October 20, 2015 9:48 AM  

I've found that the more someone points to their degree, the less productivity and good decisions I can expect from them. Many times HR demands the sheepskin, but the best workers are those who go to a community college or other less glamorous schools, love the field, and bust their tails at it.

Blogger Josh October 20, 2015 9:48 AM  

You're not going to become a physicist or a chemist or an engineer or a mathematician by just reading stuff off of Wikipedia or whatever.

What if you're wicked smaht like Matt Damon?

Blogger Robert Coble October 20, 2015 9:50 AM  

I used to be assigned the "technical" interview for prospective programmers (since the recruiting manager(s) and HR had no clue about current technical requirements on our projects). A lot of the time, I would get a glowing managerial "recommendation" for a candidate on the basis of their paper trail. "They've got a MASTERS DEGREE." When I asked for the major, the standard answer was, "What difference does that make?" Well, since I wasn't interviewing for a Pussy Secretary of State or Vagina President position, actually, it makes all the difference in the world. I got one precious little snowflake that had on her resume that she had 3-5 years "experience" using every language and every development tool known to computerdom, including the ones that were just released in the last month - even though she had been a stay-at-home Mom for the previous 2 years. When I asked for verbal examples of her student work, she seemed baffled by the question. Her response was usually, "I've got a DEGREE!" After several requests for examples of student (stupid?) "projects" that she had worked on while pursuing her "degree" (of which she had NO memory), she finally burst out with, "I guess my qualifications are not what you are looking for." I replied, "You're right." and terminated the interview. She did NOT get the job.

Blogger JartStar October 20, 2015 9:53 AM  

I'm happy to say that two young men took my advice to go to a community college for 2 years then finish at a university if they wanted to. One did and was hired by Disney at the corporate level, the other got his associates, and now is going back to school to be a welder and will be banking in less than a year.

If a young man isn't sure what he wants to do, an associates degree at a community college is a great place to start. The credits will transfer most everywhere and it gives a 18-20 year old guy some time to figure out what he really wants to do for a low price.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus October 20, 2015 9:57 AM  

What if you're wicked smaht like Matt Damon?

Okay, maybe then.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer October 20, 2015 9:57 AM  

I don't know anything about the PCB design field, but a lot of skilled jobs are going unfilled because of the idiotic notion that everyone should go to college.

When I was a kid, where I grew up getting a job as an apprentice tool and die maker was a real possibility for a bright kid with no interest in academics and was a gateway to a lucrative career. Now the industry is desperate for people because they kids that used to get apprenticeships are all being told they need to go to college and a lot of the current tool and die makers are retiring.

I suspect the same situation holds in the PCB design field.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer October 20, 2015 9:59 AM  

For that matter, I know a guy that did four years in college and now works as an electrician/general contractor building houses. I don't see how going to college benefited him at all.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus October 20, 2015 9:59 AM  

she finally burst out with, "I guess my qualifications are not what you are looking for." I replied, "You're right." and terminated the interview. She did NOT get the job.

Sounds like she had competency issues, regardless of her education level.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer October 20, 2015 10:02 AM  

Of course he got the required indoctrination, not sure how much of it took. And he got to pay for it too!

Blogger Jack Ward October 20, 2015 10:06 AM  

Main battle rifle: Totally and shamelessly OT. But, important, so forgiveness is asked.
My trusty, old .223 Ranch rifle is just not up to the game accuracy wise and other things. I am looking to a main battle type rifle, assault type probably and as nasty looking to the sjw as possible. Suggestions?
Now, I have tentatively thought of the M1A1 in some form due to my experience in Viet Nam with the M14 before the fools made us start using the M16. I've thought, too, about the Fn Fal but have been in pause due the IDF and its experiences with same in the several desert wars.
Any thoughts would be more than welcomed. And, again. not trying to hijack the blog. Just a real need to know.
[added weight points will be given to Nate's advice].

Blogger Darth Toolpodicus (#144) October 20, 2015 10:06 AM  

Yes and no...you definitely don't need a degree to learn how to layout PCAs...at its core, using the software tools is basically a CAD exercise. They don't teach it in engineering school, and companies that have their EE's do layout (my current company does) assign it to junior engineers as a task to learn on. Most places, an engineer guides the PCA layout guy through their task (if they are wise). The main issue, is that while the layout guy is normally very good at laying a board out, most don't really understand WHY they are doing things a certain way, or "why the dumbass engineer is busting my balls on this stupid tedious detail". Particularly true when you are talking about designing boards for RF emissions control or electrostatic immunity, most CAD/layout guys don't really understand why the layer stack up has to be a certain way, or why traces have to be routed just so, or why you really should not split power and ground planes, etc...they just shake their heads at the "overly anal engineer-kid".

Blogger Dexter October 20, 2015 10:10 AM  

What Lion said in August:

Go to college

The commenter “map” writes:

Lion, not to berate Yakov because I genuinely like his posts, but I think this meme that has spread across the right-wing blogosphere of college being such a waste is ultimately very destructive. It ignores one salient fact: it is almost impossible to find any decent job that does not require a college degree. College is not some marginal value calculation where you can measure the cost-benefits of college returns against not going to college. College is the baseline. Non-college grads do not compete with college grads for the same jobs or even in the same markets in any meaningful way. Corporate HR departments at firms of all sizes screen-out non-college grads. They fire people who have lied about getting degrees, even if their work output was exemplary.

In other words, the entire work culture is oriented around the college degree. That is not going to change anytime soon.

Yet, people on this blog and others are seriously advising not going to college? Is this what they would tell their own children?

I definitely love Yakov’s blue-collar point of view, and I’m genuinely happy for him that he likes his career in HVAC, but I completely agree with Map’s comment.

1. If your IQ is 1SD above the mean or higher, you are unlikely to enjoy the company of your average-IQ co-workers in a blue-collar profession.

2. I am doubtful about how easy it supposedly is to make good money in certain trades that are commonly presented as better deals than white-collar work. If something sounds too good to be true, then it’s probably not true, and making twice as much money as the average college graduate without having to go to college, that sounds too good to be true. There must be barriers to entry which prevent people from entering those fields, although I am not familiar enough with that sort of work to say exactly what they are, but my guess would be that it’s extremely difficult to find an entry-level job that allows you to get the experience you need to make the higher salaries. And I don’t know whether or not having a higher IQ than the average member of the profession makes it easier to get that entry-level job. Maybe it’s more important to have connections?

3. Blue-collar work is dirty (like a plumber dealing with old pipes that literally are full of crap) and often done outside where it would be broiling hot in the summer and freezing cold in the winter. Doesn’t it sound a lot more pleasant to sit at a desk? And blue collar work is often dangerous to your health. For example, auto mechanics have to breathe in carcinogenic and toxic aromatic petroleum distillates all day.

4. The elites know how society really work and they want their kids to also be part of the elite. That’s why they send their kids to college, and not just any college but the best college their kids are able to get admitted to.

As Map points out above, it’s impossible to get into any white collar work without a college degree. No one will hire you, so you won’t find any white collar job unless your parents own the company. And parents who own companies have their kids go to college anyway. For example, all of Donald Trump’s kids went to college at Penn (Trump’s alma mater) or Georgetown, even though they could all theoretically work in the family business without a college degree.

So why do some commenters at conservative blogs push such an obviously wrong meme?

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother October 20, 2015 10:15 AM  

Jack Ward,

Nate's balls do weigh more than the average (according to Josh) so you can more heavily weight those if you want.

As far as rifles go, an AR chambered in .308 is a little more accurate than a FAL. A FAL is rock solid as far as reliability.

Blogger dh October 20, 2015 10:26 AM  

> 4. The elites know how society really work and they want their kids to also be part of the elite. That’s why they send their kids to college, and not just any college but the best college their kids are able to get admitted to.

This is just inertia. The elites elites of today - who knows what they are going to do. When the Alphabet homosexuals spawn a new model, will they go to college, or just drop fully formed into the world? Hard to know.

The elites also send their kids to college for the sodomy, for the connections, and for appearances. And for something to do.

Blogger EG October 20, 2015 10:27 AM  

I became a manager of an engineering group for a medium sized ISP about 6 months ago after working my way up the company for 11 years. Had to hire 13 people right off the bat and I never paid attention to the degrees anyone had. It's all about experience. I've run across too many co-workers over the years that had high level certs that couldn't troubleshoot their way out of a paper bag.
It's going to take the attrition of baby boomers leaving the management ranks before we see degrees as job requirements disappear.

The worst offenders are the H1B contractors I interview. They cannot comprehend why they're unable to jump into a company making six figures with their master's in whatever, but zero job experience.

Blogger dh October 20, 2015 10:27 AM  

> 1. If your IQ is 1SD above the mean or higher, you are unlikely to enjoy the company of your average-IQ co-workers in a blue-collar profession.

My IQ is 1/2 a SD below average, I dropped out of community college after 2 semesters, and I just broke $1MM net worth before my 40th birthday.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother October 20, 2015 10:28 AM  

Dexter,

Send your kids to college. Forget you ever knew us.....

Blogger Josh October 20, 2015 10:33 AM  

My IQ is 1/2 a SD below average, I dropped out of community college after 2 semesters, and I just broke $1MM net worth before my 40th birthday.

I still refuse to believe that your IQ is that low.

Blogger Josh October 20, 2015 10:35 AM  

4. The elites know how society really work and they want their kids to also be part of the elite. That’s why they send their kids to college, and not just any college but the best college their kids are able to get admitted to.

That works for the elites. It doesn't work for the non-elites.

Hell, look at McRapey as an example. Even though he went to all the right schools, he will never be on of the elite. And he knows it, that's the fundamental root of his rage.

Blogger VD October 20, 2015 10:44 AM  

In other words, the entire work culture is oriented around the college degree. That is not going to change anytime soon.

Yes, it will. The current model is not sustainable. It's already collapsing.

Yet, people on this blog and others are seriously advising not going to college? Is this what they would tell their own children?

It depends on the child, but yes, without question. I know two programmers in their middle teens who have already been offered jobs by game studios. In one case, a major game studio.

Blogger dlw October 20, 2015 10:49 AM  

A) > certificate

Back in the 1990s I wrote drug tracking and transplant databases and an insurance precert package for the largest hospital in my state. I was (and still am) an entirely self-taught programmer. Nowadays I can't even get an interview anywhere; vo-tech "how to run MS Office" cert is worth far more than my work record.

B) >You're not going to become a physicist
> or a chemist or an engineer or a mathematician
> by just reading stuff off of Wikipedia or whatever.

I don't know about the others, but a degree in engineering sure as hell doesn't make you an engineer. Maybe a "sales engineer" or one of the fish they throw "run the calcs on this" tasks to, but not someone who can identify and solve problems. This also applies to Comp Sci grads; whatever they teach in those classes, it has nothing to do with program design, writing code, or software testing... not without major handholding, anyway.

C) > .308

The FAL is a bit complex and heavy, but it's a solid platform. I wouldn't kick one out of my gun safe.

I don't have any mechanical objections to the AR platform, it's just that it's suffused by so much fanboi drivel I don't want to be associated with the kind of people to promote them. It's like buying a Harley. You can't just buy the motorcycle, you have to take the rest of the baggage that comes along with it.
Even if the big wallet with the chain and the wild beard don't match your Armani suit.

Blogger dh October 20, 2015 10:49 AM  

> I still refuse to believe that your IQ is that low.

Middle management, that's where we all land. It's not that bad. It becomes obvious on higher level maths and physics.

Blogger Dexter October 20, 2015 10:49 AM  

@34,

I know plenty of people who went to "elite" schools who are not members of the elite. They'd probably be in the same place in life if they'd gone to a non-elite college. Not sure where they'd be if they hadn't gone to college at all.

Most people prefer the low-risk path that leads to a secure job. Thus, "don't go to college" is probably bad advice for most people, because it is definitely a higher-risk, less secure path.

Blogger AmyJ October 20, 2015 10:51 AM  

"Yet, people on this blog and others are seriously advising not going to college? Is this what they would tell their own children? "

Unless they want to be a doctor or engineer, yep. My husband and I will suggest vocational or tech schools that won't crush them with debt the second they graduate, if we suggest college at all.

Blogger EG October 20, 2015 10:56 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Guitar Man October 20, 2015 11:03 AM  

My higher education is limited to about 6 months at a small private computer school, which granted me basic experience in computer networking, and then about 6 months or so with YWAM's DTS (where I met my wife). With about 12 years of experience in systems and networking, I'm close to low six figures (hopefully soon I'll pop over the 6 figure mark), and working alongside colleagues who have their master's degrees doing the same kind of work as me.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother October 20, 2015 11:06 AM  

Dlw,

I've heard the FAL called many things, but complex wasn't one of them. What do you mean by complex?

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother October 20, 2015 11:06 AM  

And I don't have a degree in anything.

OpenID physphilmusic October 20, 2015 11:09 AM  

You can always tell the difference between a job that requires real work and a pseudo-job that doesn't. If they give a damn about university credentials, it's the latter.

Would you trust a doctor who never got an MD, but simply got his skills by browsing the internet?

Blogger Cataline Sergius October 20, 2015 11:11 AM  

"Yet, people on this blog and others are seriously advising not going to college? Is this what they would tell their own children? "

Yes. It's hardly the golden ticket it used to be. Back in Don Draper's day, yes indeed a college degree was a guarantee to six figure income lifestyle. That is simply not the case anymore.

These days the only real reason that seventy percent of college students are in college is for class demarcation. Sure you're broke, you have a mortgage sized student loan debt, no car and live with your parents.

BUT you have a college degree which makes you much better than the other unemployed Millennials

A college degree is not a passport to a better life anymore. It simply is not.

The benefits are intangible largely because they don't exist.

If you must send your kids off to school then don't let them have any say in it. Do the research yourself. There are a few, just a very precious few colleges that are worth attending. Look for smaller ones or the Service Academies.

Blogger Guitar Man October 20, 2015 11:12 AM  

@45 that's the exception, not the rule. How come so many of you can't see the difference? Are you a doctor?

OpenID Steve October 20, 2015 11:12 AM  

Only the ones that want to be doctors and engineers are thinking at all about marketability

Who in their right mind would want to be a doctor now? After all the schooling you would end up with Bernie Sanders voters wanting you to work for free. Tell them to shadow a doctor while he talks on the phone to a niglet without high school level knowledge working at an insurance company to argue whether or not a drug or treatment is correct for them to pay for it. Currently nurse anesthetists have higher end of the year profit than many doctors( possibly threatened by robomed for the bread and butter easy cases) http://theanesthesiaconsultant.com/2012/11/27/robot-anesthesia/

"The marketing consultant foresaw that with the advent of ObamaCare and Accountable Care Organizations, if a health care organization is paid a global fee to take care of a population rather than being paid a fee-for-service sum, then perhaps the cheapest way to administer propofol sedation"

Main battle rifle:....Any thoughts would be more than welcomed.

If you are getting ready for the zombie niggapocalypse you should check out what is most common in your area gun clubs. The benefits will be common caliber if you want to share ammo with others, and more possible spare parts available.
-BigGaySteve

Blogger dh October 20, 2015 11:12 AM  

> Would you trust a doctor who never got an MD, but simply got his skills by browsing the internet?

I would 100% trust a doctor who apprenticed for a sufficient period of time. I have been to them before, they are quite good. Quite a better than the aspie's that med school is turning out.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother October 20, 2015 11:13 AM  

Also back in Don Draper's day, much fewer people went to college. Hence the higher value of the degree in the 1960's.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother October 20, 2015 11:14 AM  

When looking at main battle rifles, there is only one thing to consider:

MAGAZINES
MAGAZINES
MAGAZINES

Blogger VD October 20, 2015 11:15 AM  

it’s impossible to get into any white collar work without a college degree. No one will hire you, so you won’t find any white collar job unless your parents own the company. And parents who own companies have their kids go to college anyway. For example, all of Donald Trump’s kids went to college at Penn (Trump’s alma mater) or Georgetown, even though they could all theoretically work in the family business without a college degree.

The rich go because it's the thing to do. Not encouraging me to drop out of college and sell my sound card was a massive mistake on my parents' part. If they simply hadn't pressured me to go back, I would have likely been a self-made millionaire before I was 21. Instead, I had to wait until I was 27.

So why do some commenters at conservative blogs push such an obviously wrong meme?

Because it isn't wrong. Your perspective is outdated.

OpenID Steve October 20, 2015 11:16 AM  

Would you trust a doctor who never got an MD, but simply got his skills by browsing the internet?

I would trust a white or east Asian doctor who browsed the internet then passed his boards more than a black doctor. There are still a few old nurses in the field who got their RN license without going to nursing school just by passing the boards.

Blogger Josh October 20, 2015 11:19 AM  

If they simply hadn't pressured me to go back, I would have likely been a self-made millionaire before I was 21. Instead, I had to wait until I was 27.

#humblebrag

Blogger Rabbi B October 20, 2015 11:21 AM  

You would think that the success of dropouts like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates et al, would demonstrate the relevancy of college today.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother October 20, 2015 11:22 AM  

I just can't stand people who aren't self made millionaires by the age of 21.

Blogger Darth Toolpodicus (#144) October 20, 2015 11:22 AM  

"I would 100% trust a doctor who apprenticed for a sufficient period of time."

Amen. Most people don't realize that most of the real skills acquired by their physicians are done so during their apprenticeship intern/resident/fellow phase. We don't "talk about Fight Club" because "apprenticeship" sounds so "blue collar".

Blogger Student in Blue October 20, 2015 11:27 AM  

1. If your IQ is 1SD above the mean or higher, you are unlikely to enjoy the company of your average-IQ co-workers in a blue-collar profession.

You're only likely to hate your coworkers if they're only 1SD below you. That's when midwit-itis happens. Other than that, really smart people get along with dumb coworkers just fine.

Blogger The Other Robot October 20, 2015 11:27 AM  

When looking at main battle rifles, there is only one thing to consider:

MAGAZINES
MAGAZINES
MAGAZINES


Do you really think that if you throw a few issues of Hustler in their direction it will distract them long enough for a turkey shoot?

OpenID Jack Amok October 20, 2015 11:29 AM  

The current model is not sustainable. It's already collapsing.

What's the old saying about generals who are always fighting the last war? The current situation may be that college degrees are important, but that just won't be as true in the future and when it comes to advising our children, we've got to think about the future.

One thing the fans of college degrees are not thinking clearly enough about are how utterly devalued and debauched the average degree has become. Thirty years ago a college degree could be seen as a sign of basic time-management skills and responsibility, so it was valuable to employers looking to screen out candidates without bringing the EEOC down on them.

Well, the EEOC and sundry others noticed and college degrees have been dumbed down. They're no longer a guarantee the candidate is responsible or has basic life-skills. So they no longer serve the purpose of a legally defensible filter and companies that continue to rely on them as a filter will steadily go bankrupt and be replaced by companies that use smarter hiring practices.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother October 20, 2015 11:29 AM  

Sex sells. I note you specified Hustler instead of Playboy.

Blogger justaguy October 20, 2015 11:29 AM  

College is only for the top 10% wrote Charles Murray in "Real Education" in 2008. Great book. 4 points, look it up if interested. But his main point--College if for those above 1SD in IQ. Anything else is a waste. Going from that point, if you don't have an IQ of 120 (routinely score in top 10% on standardized tests) you have a 4 year party with entertainment, along with the high IQ students that actually learn something useful.

Community College and tech learning--meaning actual employment skills normally blue collar) is something much different.

For employment, is the employer looking for someone in that top IQ or not ? So for 85% of the jobs the employer has to sort the right person and not run afoul of the many many employment laws that try to ignore differences.

So now we have the majority of people going to college and don't belong there--sorry you got taken and sold a bunch of magic beans... look for beanstalk tomorrow...be sure to keep up payment on college loans too.

OpenID Jack Amok October 20, 2015 11:31 AM  

Do you really think that if you throw a few issues of Hustler in their direction it will distract them long enough for a turkey shoot?

Well, it can't be Playboy anymore, since they're getting out of the nude business. But you're probably better off with National Geographic. Hit someone in the head with one of those bricks and he'll definitely be in concussion protocol.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother October 20, 2015 11:32 AM  

Vogue really packs a punch too.

Blogger Josh October 20, 2015 11:37 AM  

One thing the fans of college degrees are not thinking clearly enough about are how utterly devalued and debauched the average degree has become. Thirty years ago a college degree could be seen as a sign of basic time-management skills and responsibility, so it was valuable to employers looking to screen out candidates without bringing the EEOC down on them.

Well, the EEOC and sundry others noticed and college degrees have been dumbed down. They're no longer a guarantee the candidate is responsible or has basic life-skills. So they no longer serve the purpose of a legally defensible filter and companies that continue to rely on them as a filter will steadily go bankrupt and be replaced by companies that use smarter hiring practices.


Companies are starting to bring back IQ and behavioral tests to screen for employees.

That's a direct indictment of the failure of the higher education system.

Blogger The Other Robot October 20, 2015 11:38 AM  

What we need is a modified shotgun shell so we can fire a rolled up issue of Penthouse in their direction ...

Blogger The Other Robot October 20, 2015 11:38 AM  

I think there is a Youtube video on that.

Blogger rumpole5 October 20, 2015 11:42 AM  

We need to return to the classical model of the Trivium, followed by Quadrivium. That produces an adaptable, independent man in tune with the overall challenges of the Human condition from a Western Civ. perspective. Instead, the University has become a collection of practical arts trade schools that do a much poorer job than a focused trade school or apprentice system would do. An education is about much more than just putting food on the table.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian October 20, 2015 11:49 AM  

@25

Ruger offers a piston AR style rifle that uses AR mags. SR-556 (.223 and 5.56) and SR-762 (.308 and 7.62).
This goes along with @50 Super Porno Mags!

Saiga offers AK platform in .223 and .308. Magazines are available but not ubiquitous.

Ain't nothing wrong with an M1A. But, yes, magazines.

Blogger dh October 20, 2015 11:49 AM  

> Companies are starting to bring back IQ and behavioral tests to screen for employees.

Cite?

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau October 20, 2015 11:52 AM  

College for most has become a glorified extra 4 years of high school that you go into hock to pay for yourself. No wonder Bernie and Hillary want to make it 'free'. The new system will be the 13th 14th 15th and 16th grades and a great jobs program for the 'Community'.

> Would you trust a doctor who never got an MD, but simply got his skills by browsing the internet?

I usually consult a Merck Manual before going to the Doctor. If it's something I can fix myself over the counter I'll save that co pay hit to my Obamacare plan my company replaced my Cadillac plan with.

Blogger Engineer-Poet October 20, 2015 11:56 AM  

College degrees are still highly relevant for people working in fields which don't have specific subject-matter certifications (like Microsoft or Cisco certs).  Companies over 15 employees have to comply with EEOC regulations on "diversity" and "non-discrimination".  Requiring a degree weeds out much of the criminal and otherwise useless trash.

TL;DR it's all fallout from Griggs vs. Duke Power.

Blogger Dexter October 20, 2015 12:01 PM  

the University has become a collection of practical arts trade schools that do a much poorer job than a focused trade school or apprentice system would do

What university are you talking about? The last thing they teach is anything "practical". They are not "trade schools" -- we'd be far better off if they were.

They are madrassas for indoctrinating youth and turning them into good little SJWs who know how to feel (not think) and how to react correctly in accordance with the latest dogma.

OpenID vilefacelessminion October 20, 2015 12:04 PM  

I can pile on regarding programming. I don't even bother looking at college degrees. I want job experience, and I will make you demonstrate your skills. 90% of our applicants cannot pass the very basic programming exam we administer.

For programming, PluralSight training is a great way to keep your skills up to date!

Blogger Sam October 20, 2015 12:12 PM  

I retired last year as a senior engineer with a major corporation. I don't have a college degree.

Blogger Josh October 20, 2015 12:13 PM  

Cite?

Some of it's my own experiences, some of it is pretty well known, like Google's famous interview questions.

Blogger zxvv October 20, 2015 12:14 PM  

We have a couple degree-less PCB CAD guys at my company, been here for forty years, great at what they do, that sort of thing. PCB design seems to be a niche in EE where one can do all right straight out of high school or whatever. Still, our guys have "credentialed" engineers like me doing the back-seat driving.

Although I was frustrated by the rigidity of my accredited curriculum, I find myself using bits and pieces of just about everything from my engineering courses.

Blogger Bluntobj Winz October 20, 2015 12:19 PM  

@70

Medicine is one of those fields that government enforced monopolies have created artificial shortages. People should have access to tools and information to make their own decisions.

Unfortunately most users of WebMD are not even competent enough to use that site. So much in medicine requires judgment, and most online medical sites tend to defer to the worst case so they don't get sued.

Those of us that are more aware should have the resources to be our own primary care physician where needed. I predict that in the coming years you may see the rise of the black market physician that has a cash only clientele of more sophisticated users.

Wait, that's concierge medicine!

Blogger Rabbi B October 20, 2015 12:22 PM  

> Companies are starting to bring back IQ and behavioral tests to screen for employees.

Cite?

Here's one.

OpenID Jack Amok October 20, 2015 12:24 PM  

Companies over 15 employees have to comply with EEOC regulations on "diversity" and "non-discrimination". Requiring a degree weeds out much of the criminal and otherwise useless trash.


Go back and read my post at #59. What you're saying used to be correct, but it isn't any longer.

Blogger Danby October 20, 2015 12:27 PM  

@25 Dexter
How's the Flav-R-Aid?

it’s impossible to get into any white collar work without a college degree. No one will hire you, so you won’t find any white collar job unless your parents own the company
Simply not true. I'm making 6 figures working from home in a white-collar job with no college degree. I was laid off from my previous job 3 years ago and literally had a new position before the previous employer managed to get me removed from the payroll system. I get calls from recruiters every week.

1. If your IQ is 1SD above the mean or higher, you are unlikely to enjoy the company of your average-IQ co-workers in a blue-collar profession.
Personally, I prefer the company of average and above average IQ to the company of the people Vox calls midwits. The 115 to 130 IQ guys who think they know a hell of a lot more than they do. People like you.

2. I am doubtful about how easy it supposedly is to make good money in certain trades that are commonly presented as better deals than white-collar work.
Entirely supposition, opposed to actual data. Dismissed out of hand, as readily as it was asserted out of hand.

3. Blue-collar work is dirty (like a plumber dealing with old pipes that literally are full of crap) and often done outside where it would be broiling hot in the summer and freezing cold in the winter. Doesn’t it sound a lot more pleasant to sit at a desk? And blue collar work is often dangerous to your health. For example, auto mechanics have to breathe in carcinogenic and toxic aromatic petroleum distillates all day.
Seriously? That's your argument? College graduates work in nice comfy offices? I guess if your ambition is to be a drone....

4. The elites know how society really work and they want their kids to also be part of the elite. That’s why they send their kids to college, and not just any college but the best college their kids are able to get admitted to.
No, the "elites" want their kids to members of the same class that they themselves are members of, so they send them to college sothey never have to work a real job. That's why they send them to the most connected college they can get them into to.
Category error.

So why do some commenters at conservative blogs push such an obviously wrong meme?
Critic, examine thyself.

Blogger Noah B #120 October 20, 2015 12:27 PM  

It's my understanding that SCOTUS has generally outlawed any type of IQ test for use in employment screening. Griggs v. Duke Power Co.

But I wouldn't exactly be surprised to learn of the law being applied unequally, allowing "special" companies like Google to get away with breaking what is law for the rest of us.

Blogger Dexter October 20, 2015 12:35 PM  

@Danby (and others),

Note that I was cutting and pasting someone else's opinion. Don't take them as my own views.

Blogger DadOfTen October 20, 2015 12:38 PM  

79. Jack Amok
Amen. I have had HR professionals from several major companies confirm that required degrees help avoid EEOC problems.

Blogger Danby October 20, 2015 12:41 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger DadOfTen October 20, 2015 12:42 PM  

81. Noah B #120
The law is that the test must be proven by statistical studies to positively predict performance in the specific job. Essentially, a few are IQ tests that don't say IQ. Most tests are skill tests which are fairly easy to prove correlate to better job performance.

OpenID would-be-tellin October 20, 2015 12:52 PM  

I can guarantee you this guy wouldn't be where he's at if he were just some schlub with a GED who got a few certs off the internet and then started interviewing.

That's what a portfolio is for. If you have no real experience in PCB layout, find some fun schematics, lay them out, get them cheaply manufactured in China, solder the parts on and make the circuit work, and then show them to prospective employees. Like programmers having a GitHub (spit) portfolio of open source software they've created or made major contributions to.

OpenID Steve October 20, 2015 1:03 PM  

Companies are starting to bring back IQ and behavioral tests to screen for employees.Cite?

Even healthcare personnel have been hit with testing people who passed nursing boards because minority single moms can take 8 years to go thru a 2 year program at taxpayer expense, & take the boards (mostly multiple choice questions including select all that apply) 3 times. Military nurses that failed state boards 3 times would be transferred to another base/state to take that states tests 3times.

http://allnurses.com/nursing-educators-faculty/performance-based-development-393490.html

"Few subjects have stirred up as much controversy within the nursing community as the performance based development system (pbds) nursing "competency" assessment. What exactly is this test and why is it so controversial?" Because it kills die verse city.

Blogger James Dixon October 20, 2015 1:12 PM  

> Cite?

The company I work for gave me a fairly standard low end IQ test before offering me the position. Yeah, I know, anecdotes are not data, but at least one company is doing so.

Blogger Josh October 20, 2015 1:13 PM  

Note that I was cutting and pasting someone else's opinion. Don't take them as my own views.

You should probably make that more clear by using italics or something.

Blogger Josh October 20, 2015 1:15 PM  

The company I work for gave me a fairly standard low end IQ test before offering me the position. Yeah, I know, anecdotes are not data, but at least one company is doing so.

P&G, Amex, BB&T, and some others give various pre-employment screening assessments.

Blogger ncartist October 20, 2015 1:16 PM  

@ 68.
You may want to consider this ammo by Ruger:
These plastic bullets though with copper in them, are light. Meaning for the same amount of powder, a bullet is pushed faster being lighter, and this is what transforms the little bullet into a big bullet wound channel.

Blogger Kirk Parker October 20, 2015 1:19 PM  

25/28: Nothing wrong with a well-built AR unless your needs are > 200 yds or involve stopping vehicles. Most of the guys doing competing in NRA high power these days use AR's and their scores are as good as any previous generation's.

Blogger MidKnight (#138) October 20, 2015 1:27 PM  

@Noah B #120
I'm working as an engineer in fields I didn't formally study at all. I could have done what I'm doing just as well right out of high school. The requirement for credentials is insanely crippling to the economy and does little to ensure that professionals are actually competent.

I have an architecture firm client who lamented to me that he wishes he could just hire his interns (paid, they do a real job, not the entertainment biz) straight out of high school, and teach them everything they needed to know to become real architects, because of all the time he had to waste UN-teaching the college graduates.

Me - I have a couple of computer certs, spent two years at college (no degree) before joining the navy, spent 12 years as a nuke (Four careers in one between instructor duty, HVAC work, etc...), and now freelance as a small biz IT guy.

When we hire, we don't ask for any degrees or certs, but instead what kid of computer they built, or languages they learned for the hell of it.

Blogger Cataline Sergius October 20, 2015 1:37 PM  

@46

How come so many of you can't see the difference? Are you a doctor?

A better question would be, do you have a bachelor's degree? The answer is, yes and it was total waste of my time. So was the MBA.

I would have been much better off enlisting at 17 and retiring out of the Marine Corps at 37.

Conservatives aren't the only ones to have noticed this.

One of the UK’s biggest graduate recruiters is to remove degree classification from the entry criteria for its hiring programmes, having found “no evidence” that success at university was correlated with achievement in professional qualifications.

Accountancy firm Ernst and Young, known as EY, will no longer require students to have a 2:1 degree and the equivalent of three B grades at A level to be considered for its graduate programmes.

Instead, the company will use numerical tests and online “strength” assessments to assess the potential of applicants.


My turn to ask an obvious question, do you work at a college?

Blogger Kirk Parker October 20, 2015 1:42 PM  

91: lots and lots of BS in that linked article about "magic" bullets. Start with the "US Military throwing away their 9mm"

Blogger Kirk Parker October 20, 2015 1:48 PM  

On the Internet doctor question, my BIL the ER doc does use Youtube whenever he needs to review a procedure he hasn't done in a long time (or ever.)

Blogger Rabbi B October 20, 2015 1:57 PM  

Frank William Abagnale, Jr.

An American security consultant known for his history as a former confidence trickster, check forger, and impostor between the ages of 15 and 21. He became one of the most famous impostors ever, claiming to have assumed no fewer than eight identities, including an airline pilot, a physician, a U.S. Bureau of Prisons agent, and a lawyer. He escaped from police custody twice (once from a taxiing airliner and once from a U.S. federal penitentiary), before he was 21 years old. He served less than five years in prison before starting to work for the federal government. He is currently a consultant and lecturer for the FBI academy and field offices. He also runs Abagnale & Associates, a financial fraud consultancy company.

And he didn't get his MBA. Go figure.

Blogger MrNiceguy October 20, 2015 2:38 PM  

Hit 'em with a full broadside of Bruce Jenner's cross-dressing photo shoot. Anyone that doesn't run screaming from the battlefield will have clawed out their own eyes and will be begging for the sweet release of death. Whether you grant this depends on how much ammo you have.

OpenID genericviews October 20, 2015 2:46 PM  

FAL is a bit fickle on modern hunting ammo. Sure, it's plenty reliable with M1 Ball. But with softnose or even some polymer (like Hornady A-Max), it will jam. Particularly if you are using an older model built without the feed ramps that modern rifles have.

You should not overlook simply using better ammo in your ranch rifle.

Blogger ray October 20, 2015 2:54 PM  

Cut college attendance to ten percent of current levels. Government pushes college constantly because it is Finishing School for their ideo-political agendas -- feminism, diversity, LGBTQZ fascism, etc. My college profs thirty years ago used to describe to me in desperation the mass dumbing down of the bored, cheating stoonts. Folks that was thirty years ago, by now, y'all are just fooling yourselves. The stoonts are better utilized growing food and picking up papers by the highways.

College has been propped up for decades by the 'elite' and by the parents of daughters, and the vast majority of princesses have no business being there, except to fatten the IRAs and personal psychologies of their parents. Completely unsustainable and a corrupting influence upon the nation.

Blogger Rabbi B October 20, 2015 3:00 PM  

"Government pushes college constantly . . ."

It's also the new mortgage. Gotta get those 18-twenty-somethings on the hook for $50K as soon as possible. They've certianly done a masterful job of convincing them it's *worth it*.

Blogger tweell October 20, 2015 3:17 PM  

My children have gone to various colleges, so far the community colleges and on-line schools have been providing the best value for money. Snooty private schools, state universities, community colleges, the same courses provide the same information at vastly different costs. Most HR folks love degrees (keeps their phony baloney jobs), but skill and knowledge are what the folks that do the work want. As long as the current gatekeepers last, get the degree as cheaply as possible.

http://www.ruger.com/micros/rpr/models.html A rifle much more accurate than I am. Sigh.

Blogger Danby October 20, 2015 3:53 PM  

For scary rifles, I have a captured K98, rechambered in 30.06. Complete with the big swastika on the receiver.
Nazi rifles for the win.

Blogger Rabbi B October 20, 2015 4:00 PM  

" . . . so far the community colleges and on-line schools have been providing the best value for money."

Ditto on the online colleges. I would like to see the on-line institutions put most of the brick and mortars out of business.

Blogger clk October 20, 2015 4:51 PM  

The problem with the ranch rifle or the mini 14 is the thickness of the barrel .. there are a bunch of suggestions online on how to stabilize this to improve accuracy. I wouldn't jump yet but certainly the AR platform is an excellency choice - the AR has been consistently doing well against the old school battle rifles in HP completions for years now... and then pick yourself up old bolt action rifle (like a used 700 in 308 or an old Springfield 1903 ) for longer shots.

There are certainly fields in engineering where an engineering degree is not needed .. but its kind of a gateway, or assurance of intelligence, But there are fields in engineering where a degree is absolutely needed and the math skills used every day...

Absolutely yes to the technical college and then state schools .. by far the best value and the best education. You don't want research professors because then the classes are taught by grad students .. for your BS you want professors experienced in teaching the basic materials well.. because if there in a poor foundation, all the rest is for naught.

I can also say that in the EE field, I often prefer the BSEET over the BSEE graduate.. because they are more hands on focused, they can use the equipment and have the basics without all the extra stuff that comes with a BSEE... they hit the ground running much faster than a BSEE.

Blogger clk October 20, 2015 4:58 PM  

"Nazi rifles for the win" .. followed closely behind by the Russian Mosin Nagants for cost/benefit ratio...7.62x54R fired out of a M44 Mosin Nagant short barrel is like a fire breathing dragon, and all the surplus ammo is LPA with mean little steel cores... and those long M91's .. you can shoot 1000 yards and then use the rifle to hold up your tent...

Blogger Cail Corishev October 20, 2015 5:14 PM  

It's my understanding that SCOTUS has generally outlawed any type of IQ test for use in employment screening.

Yes, but. If you're hiring people to do something that generally demands intelligence and logical thinking, you can test them on practical job skills and get a pretty good proxy for IQ. And the reason for testing IQ in the first place would have been to predict their ability to handle the job, so why not cut to the chase and just test that? Google might be able to guess your IQ pretty accurately based on their entrance tests, but that's not really the point.

Also, there's illegal, and then there's what you get sued for. Most people don't know you can't give prospective hires an IQ test, and might not recognize it for one if you did. If you're hiring ten factory workers in Backwater, BFE, and you give applicants a quick IQ test like the Wonderlic, what's the chance that one of them will sue you over being declined and try to test it in court? Heck, even the NFL does it, openly, and no one complains.

Blogger Cail Corishev October 20, 2015 5:16 PM  

It ignores one salient fact: it is almost impossible to find any decent job that does not require a college degree.

So you need a degree to get a decent job because no one gives decent jobs to people without degrees?

To the extent that that's true these days, it's not a law of nature; it'll be true right up until the moment a critical mass of people stop thinking it's true. It's a convention, which exists partly because the courts told businesses they couldn't give people IQ tests so they started using the college degree as a proxy for intelligence and class.

A company that needs entry-level people in a tech field like computer programming could bring in high-school graduates, give them an aptitude test (something that tests their math/logic skills without looking enough like an IQ test to get them in trouble), and then put them through a 6-week, full-time training program. Each fortnight, give them a test to weed out the ones who aren't getting it. By the end of the six weeks, they'd be able to start on entry-level work. Over the next 6 months, maybe a year, they spend an afternoon a week on more advanced training, while doing actual work the rest of the time. An accelerated apprenticeship program.

Note that I'm not saying you can become an expert in a field in 6 weeks. I am saying that around 6 weeks should be enough to get an interested, capable employee up to speed enough to start being productive -- to the level of the average college graduate -- and able to continue learning on the job. And he should even be cheaper, because instead of paying him enough to service the debt he acquired while spending 4-5 years learning to shotgun beer, you only pay for several weeks of training.

Then we could burn down 95% of the colleges, and the rest could stop trying to train people for careers -- which they're terrible at -- and go back to teaching the classics to people who just want to study and think deep thoughts all day and can get sponsors to allow them to do that.

Blogger Were-Puppy October 20, 2015 6:15 PM  

@91 ncartist
You may want to consider this ammo by Ruger:
---

Ah, thanks for posting that. I got 2 Rugers and a
couple Berettas in 9 mm. I'm going to hunt these bullets down as soon as they are available.

Blogger rumpole5 October 20, 2015 6:56 PM  

@DEXTER RE: UNIVERSITY VS. TRADE SCHOOLS

The function of a University should be to impart "learned arts" that develop a man's character, general wisdom, philosophical and theological outlook, and the like. A trade school, in contrast, imparts a "practical art" such as engineering, architecture, medicine, and the like. The practical arts enable you to live, but the learned arts tell you how, and why you live. If you want to focus on eating, fornication, and acquisition of the best house, car, jet ski, ... Then go directly to trade school. If you want also to understand the deeper issues of the Human condition, then attend one of the few remaining University that employ a traditional Western Civilization core, or a great books school, such as St. Johns college.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother October 20, 2015 7:07 PM  

Generic Views,

Absolutely on the hunting ammo. FMJ for the ammo in a FAL. Steer away from the hollow points and soft points. Even on the modern DSA and Coonan receivers with feed ramps I feel much better using FMJ/ball.

Blogger rumpole5 October 20, 2015 7:09 PM  

@DEXTER - University compared to trade school.

A book that addresses this issue much better than I've done here is: John Zmirak
Choosing the Right College 2014-15: The Inside Scoop on Elite Schools and Outstanding Lesser-Known Institutions

I recommend it to anyone who is interested in a substantive education.

Blogger Joe A. October 20, 2015 7:31 PM  

Hell, community college by itself is decent enough...

Blogger GK Chesterton October 20, 2015 8:04 PM  

I have to wonder if you removed STEM how much the "college dividend" would be eliminated. It is _reasonable_ to want a certification for a guy that pulls out a heart or builds a bridge. Not so reasonable to have one that runs a cash register.

Blogger GK Chesterton October 20, 2015 8:39 PM  

I have to wonder if you removed STEM how much the "college dividend" would be eliminated. It is _reasonable_ to want a certification for a guy that pulls out a heart or builds a bridge. Not so reasonable to have one that runs a cash register.

Blogger Jack Ward October 20, 2015 9:29 PM  

Main Battle rifle.
Thanks all for the input. I posted that comment and, within, 15 min. found out I had to go on a 100 mile plus trip, one way, to North Alabama. Thus, the delay.
I had pretty much crossed off the FAL due to what I understand the IDF went through trying to make them work in desert combat conditions. Now, north Al is not desert [not yet anyway] but why take the chance. I had and am seriously considering AK-47 or 50. I don't need sniper accuracy for site defense where we are. 100 meters to the tree line is good to go.
One consideration is avail on ammo and cost. 30.06 scores high there. .308 is also hard to beat [particularly if the weapon can take the Winchester and 7.62 Nato [as I understand they are one and the same].
My battle pistol is doing well thank you. 1911 .45 she is. Used it as TO pistol weapon in Nam and fell in love and never fell out.
An AR chambered for the big round? Maybe. Could not go too far wrong I suppose.
Have owned a 700 in 30.06 and thinking about a bolt action one again in addition to something with more rapid fire rate. Be nice to have the bolt action and the semi-auto in compatible cartridges. If that is even possible and I don't know for sure; have to investigate.
Thanks all.
Oh, Danby @ 106. Yeah, the Germans did invent the Mauser action did they not? And, the concept of the assault rifle, I do believe. Lot of credibility there.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother October 20, 2015 9:48 PM  

Jack,

I wouldn't read too much into the Israeli experience with the FAL. Have you met Ol' Dirty? There are millions of FAL's around the world, all putting rounds downrange still.

OpenID Jack Amok October 20, 2015 11:11 PM  

Amen. I have had HR professionals from several major companies confirm that required degrees help avoid EEOC problems.

You missed the most important part my post. The degrees don't help the companies do anything useful any more. And it wouldn't surprise me the HR departments at major corporations were ignorant of that.

Back when the EEOC started making trouble and IQ tests became evidence of discrimination, requiring a college degree would filter out almost all the blacks, Hispanics and women. And the few it didn't filter out were the ones with the highest IQs, the most responsible, the ones who came from the most stable families. In other words, the ones who "acted white" the most. So requiring a college degree accomplished pretty much the same thing as saying "white men only" without getting sued.

But they're handing out college degrees like candy these days. White men from stable homes - or those who behave like them - are a minority of college grads. Requiring a college degree for a non-STEM job today will do more to filter out candidates you do want than ones you don't. And for STEM jobs it's becoming debatable.

Blogger SciVo October 21, 2015 2:44 AM  

Danby @80: the "elites" want their kids to members of the same class that they themselves are members of, so they send them to college so they never have to work a real job. That's why they send them to the most connected college they can get them into to.

From what I saw of my late BIL, it isn't even really so much about the school as the fraternity. If you want to spend your life using money to make money -- much like retirement, except that you also make deals during the golf, dinner and drinks -- then you need connections. If you actually intend to work for a living, and/or don't have the pull to get in the "right" fraternity, then how much is an Ivy League diploma really worth?

Blogger Sherwood family October 21, 2015 2:46 AM  

My university degree was useful as a credentialing device. That is all. What I got from it opened a door and gave me some useful background knowledge on a couple of topics. However, everything I need to know for my job was learned on the job. Mine is not a technical job but clerical/procedural.

What was actually useful at developing skills was what I got when I worked as a laborer at a frozen food factory for nearly three years while I cast around trying to get a job in my field. I learned a lot there including the fact that I did not want to stay there long term. When the piece of equipment you are running breaks down and every minute it is down equals 220 packages of Lean Cuisine you learn to try to anticipate problems and make sure everything is in good working order before the assembly line starts up. If that means clocking in at 3:40AM instead of 4:00 that's what you do. It also means you have to learn think on your feet to solve problems you could not anticipate.

Before college I worked as a tile setter's helper. My boss made a good living putting in flooring and I learned that the faster and better we worked the more money we made. He was out of town on vacation and I worked with another guy who installed flooring for the same company. The guy took a smoke break every fifteen minutes and the thin set we used would dry out before he could get it on the floor because he was so slow. That really woke me up to the difference that work ethic makes. I was so happy to have my boss back in town because every minute that guy spent smoking was money I was not making.

Blogger Shimshon October 21, 2015 3:08 AM  

Back in the 1980s, when you could attend world class universities like UCLA and UC Berkeley for well under $1500 annually (plus room, board, books of course), getting said degree was not unwise and certainly possible to do without accruing a single penny of debt. On campus housing was pricey, but off campus, my rent varied between $210-$265, for my own room (I went to UCSD, also a pretty good school), and I was never more than a 15 minute commute from school. Student-friendly jobs (on and off campus) were fairly plentiful and usually paid above minimum wage at the time ($3.35). Campus jobs were the best, as UCSD, being a state institution, was exempt from FICA withholding, and student employees didn't have to pay in to the state employee retirement system.

All this mumbo jumbo about the great benefits of college is as if the speaker is living in that long-ago time.

If you need to take on debt to go to college, the answer today should be "no." There are few exceptions to this blanket statement.

Blogger Unknown October 21, 2015 3:09 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger SciVo October 21, 2015 3:13 AM  

On this topic, if you'd like to be a full-stack software engineer, check out the unconventional Holberton School (h/t ZDNet via *NSFW* GoodShit *NSFW*). The inaugural class will only seat 32, but it will be free for all four semesters. I am, of course, applying.

Blogger James Dixon October 21, 2015 6:10 AM  

> College has been propped up for decades by the 'elite' and by the parents of daughters, and the vast majority of princesses have no business being there

Ray, the traditional reason those women went to college was to meet eligible men and get their Mrs. degree.

Blogger Gaiseric October 21, 2015 10:50 AM  

Ray, the traditional reason those women went to college was to meet eligible men and get their Mrs. degree.

Still a valid proposal for young women, even today. Too bad only a few schools—mostly private, religious ones—actually have that as a semi-predictable outcome.

OpenID Jack Amok October 21, 2015 11:19 AM  

I went to UCSD, also a pretty good school

Greetings fellow... what were we? Tritons? I was War and Peace College. Which one were you? (Not Third World I hope...)

Blogger ray October 21, 2015 2:17 PM  

"From what I saw of my late BIL, it isn't even really so much about the school as the fraternity. If you want to spend your life using money to make money -- much like retirement, except that you also make deals during the golf, dinner and drinks -- then you need connections."


Sure. This still obtains, mostly at the East Coast ivy 'snot skools'. Been this way for centuries -- first the college is arranged, then the fraternity or sorority, then the position within the frat or soror. The closed societies, like Skull and Bones or Scroll and Key, are organizing grounds for the (pseudo) elite. This is gradually breaking down as the New Elite are largely female, and are conditioned through the general stoont population, via politics and ideology, and through mass-media. But note they still sent their stooge Soetoro to Columbia to wave him through a 'law degree' . . . and everything else, of course. He learned nothing except how to be a bigger thief and liar, and that's what his handlers wanted him to learn.

Blogger ray October 21, 2015 2:37 PM  

"Ray, the traditional reason those women went to college was to meet eligible men and get their Mrs. degree."


That hasn't been the case for a long time. Advantaged female enrollment, scholarships, on-campus employment, special advancement . . . this was already in place when I was in college three decades ago. Females don't need husbands anymore, the government, schools, media, corporations, police . . . all these are their husband now. They can now hook up and Have It All, and then use secular and religious authority to push for marriage in their thirties and forties, after they're slutted-out. There are always males sufficiently desperate and pathetic to maintain this option. By that point, a 'husband' is just another status marker anyway.

Gynarchic America doesn't rely on campus screechers to maintain its power. Feminism rules the West because the invested demographic is very broad under empire -- the financial/political elite, most females and UMC members, the LGBTQZX etc. factions, and most importantly, the parents of daughters. Once those parents were incentivized (and to lesser degree propagandized) to gut their cultures in favor of advancing their daughters and themselves, it was basically all over, except for the following decades of inevitable decline and failure.

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