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Monday, October 05, 2015

They should have started with him

Ben Bernanke says financial executives should have been arrested and charged with crimes:
With publication of his memoir, The Courage to Act, on Tuesday by W.W. Norton & Co., Bernanke has some thoughts about what went right and what went wrong. For one thing, he says that more corporate executives should have gone to jail for their misdeeds. The Justice Department and other law-enforcement agencies focused on indicting or threatening to indict financial firms, he notes, "but it would have been my preference to have more investigation of individual action, since obviously everything what went wrong or was illegal was done by some individual, not by an abstract firm."

He also offers a detailed rebuttal to critics who argue the government could and should have done more to rescue Lehman Brothers from bankruptcy in the worst weekend of a tumultuous time. "We were very, very determined not to let it collapse," he says. "But we were out of bullets at that point."

Still, he does acknowledge some missteps by the Fed. Analysts were slow to realize just how serious the economic downturn would become, and he faults himself for not doing more to explain to Americans why it was in their interests to rescue the financial firms that had helped cause it.
Needless to say, I will be reading and reviewing this book in the near future. And I will be very, very, very surprised if Mr. Bernanke manages to convince me that he is doing anything except whitewash his record. The idea that it was essential to rescue the financial firms that are still preying on the American economy and weighing it down is simply nonsensical. The Federal Reserve didn't succeed in anything except kicking the can down the road and ensure that the next crisis will be even more severe.

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92 Comments:

Blogger chris October 05, 2015 2:30 AM  

Yeah. Right.

Freaking moron. The current rules (Sorbonne-Oxley) have one consequence: anyone with any sense in the financial markets avoid any US activities. They will NOT, repeat NOT, prevent black swan events -- which are a consequence of a fragile system and the law of large numbers -- nor prevent the antisocial lying and cheating.

What they do is trap honest people. Particulary when the same bloody congress that brings in these rules have teh race nazziz arrive and say you have not given enough loans to improvident peoples with a high melanin count, thus placing their business at risk.

They are the financial equivalent of a zero tolerance blood alcohol or speed cameras.

Blogger Lost Pilgrim October 05, 2015 2:32 AM  

I think there was enough money we could have simply given it back to the American people and allowed them to pay off those mortgages and loans.

Then the financial institutions wouldn't be broke and the mortgages wouldn't be underwater. It would probably be harder to skim from that though so that's right out.

Blogger SciVo October 05, 2015 2:43 AM  

The conspicuous absence of perp walks told us all who rules over us now. Democracy is dead.

Blogger Forrest Bishop October 05, 2015 3:19 AM  

"I will be very, very, very surprised if Mr. Bernanke manages to convince me that he is doing anything except whitewash his record." - VD

This will be a cakewalk, beginning with the ongoing crimes of counterfeiting, embezzlement, and deceptive trade practice. Just the small excerpt is a gold mine.

"[Bernanke] also offers a detailed rebuttal to critics who argue the government could and should have done more to rescue Lehman Brothers from bankruptcy.... 'We were very, very determined not to let it collapse,' he says. 'But we were out of bullets at that point.'"

What business does the alleged Fed have in preventing various & sundry companies from going bankrupt? Is this in their alleged charter? (no.) If they can prevent bankruptcy, then they can also destroy successful companies, which is a partial synopsis of the entire history of the alleged Fed: if A is saved then B is destroyed. And who exactly are they shooting those bullets at?

Blogger Doom October 05, 2015 3:58 AM  

There is always the possibility that these types are just pasties. On this one, I am with you. He is simply too knowledgeable to misread. Yellen? She's a woman, I have few doubts that she is little more than a puppet. Post-menopausal? Yeah. But not Ben. Now, there is the notion of paradigms. How many in the "industry" believe him? Do they believe he and the industry are mostly good guys? I would say they do. If their notion of what a good guy is is so screwed as to be easily ignored by children, peasants, citizens not getting a cut, etc. The error is from being on the inside and so having no difficulty eating America from the inside out so as to be millionaires and more. Does he actually, fundamentally, deep down, think it's right... or they? No, probably not. But without a sense of heaven or hell, and addicted to the fruits of the highway to hell, I don't think he could ever tell the truth. Then again, how many of the elites who write here... or their children... *cough* are dragons of a different color? Most. Aristocrats of various houses. Dark darlings of wealth and power movers and shakers.

*grins*

Blogger SciVo October 05, 2015 5:23 AM  

Doom @5: But without a sense of heaven or hell, and addicted to the fruits of the highway to hell, I don't think he could ever tell the truth.

I don't know if you even know how much truth you just told.

Blogger Stilicho #0066 October 05, 2015 6:04 AM  

Shutup Tad.

Blogger Eric October 05, 2015 6:30 AM  

I think there was enough money we could have simply given it back to the American people and allowed them to pay off those mortgages and loans.

Would there have been enough to match the value of houses for people who paid theirs off? Why reward people who are too incompetent to pay off their loans?

Blogger James Dixon October 05, 2015 6:39 AM  

> Needless to say, I will be reading and reviewing this book in the near future.

Why is it I think the review will probably make for more interesting reading than the book itself? :)

> Why reward people who are too incompetent to pay off their loans?

Why reward business that are too incompetent to make good loans?

Blogger Phillip George October 05, 2015 6:49 AM  

"abstract firm" unquote

firmament and legal fiction are mutually exclusive.

He wants a little bit of common law culpability while maintaining the hundred year fictions of fiat currency?
Cognitive dissonance is the deja vu you keep having.

It's Jubilee. See what happens Oct 7th?

Blogger Cataline Sergius October 05, 2015 6:58 AM  

The real problem started with Greenspan. There was a guy who just knew he had the magic touch.

Blogger Doom October 05, 2015 7:02 AM  

SciVo,

"I don't know if you even know how much truth you just told."

More than you should think, I do believe. That phrase was, of my own accord, initially aimed at me... back in the day. I just, eventually, realized I was so far from alone on that path I once knew so well. Though there are more paths to hell than can be counted, and only one the other way. I didn't recognize all the others, until I found some common threads. When you realize what you are, what it means, and how it is displayed, it's really easy to spot the others. "Here's your ticket." On the other side, I know even the princes of darkness can be turned around. Might nearly kill them/us, or near death might be the path itself. But it is possible.

I sure piss a lot of people off knowing and pointing though. All good.

OpenID basementhomebrewer October 05, 2015 7:05 AM  

The idea that it is the Feds role to save businesses is insane. The reason they did it is because almost nothing of value could have been salvaged from the ashes.

As much as the robber barons of old were vilified, at least if they went bankrupt there were plenty of profitable assets for someone to salvage.

Blogger Nate October 05, 2015 7:13 AM  

God I hate this bullshit. Total Collapse isn't even possible. The economy isn't a car. There is no engine to break down.

The economy is people buying and selling stuff.

People will never stop buying and selling stuff.

Blogger Phillip George October 05, 2015 7:23 AM  

Have a holiday in Zimbabwe Nate. Yes people keep eating and living in houses, sort of, it's what they can achieve with their paper assets and ledger entries that is in doubt here.

Economics is social capital first.

Blogger bub October 05, 2015 7:25 AM  

Your response to Bernanke might be worthy of placing in book form.

Blogger Josh October 05, 2015 7:28 AM  

Why reward people who are too incompetent to pay off their loans?

Even fraudulent loans?

Blogger Cinco October 05, 2015 7:42 AM  

@Nate

I think you are a little rusty on your centralbankerese. Economic collapse, to a central banker translates to: currency collapse.

Blogger Nate October 05, 2015 7:52 AM  

"I think you are a little rusty on your centralbankerese. Economic collapse, to a central banker translates to: currency collapse. "

Which... isn't nearly as big a deal as people think it is.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 05, 2015 7:59 AM  

Lehman was a manufactured crisis, it could have been shut and its assets and liabilities cleared in a semi-orderly fashion but we had to elect our era's Jim Jones, so we had a "crisis" that was put to use.

Blogger JAY WILL October 05, 2015 8:08 AM  

They had to bail the banks out. The likely political fallout of perhaps millions of people losing either life savings or significant chunks of wealth in a one off meltdown would have been huge. It may well be a sticking plaster but from the perspective of those in power the short term has to be dealt with. Obviously other factors but I think that does matter a lot more than is said.

The grazing sheep of the relatively comfortable Western countries are awakened when they stick their special card into the magic bank machine and the message they get is "Its all gone". In that moment peoples gaze on the politicians turns from one of a "what can you do" cynicism to "how do I get this bastard". Of course, given what you have said before they are just putting it off for another day but if its a matter of making sure I don't get shot today I'd rather do what is necessary to not get shot now and worry about the long term another day.





Blogger Nate October 05, 2015 8:10 AM  

"Lehman was a manufactured crisis, it could "ave been shut and its assets and liabilities cleared in a semi-orderly fashion but we had to elect our era's Jim Jones, so we had a "crisis" that was put to use. "

No. They couldn't. The financial shenanigans meant that if they followed the law... they'd be putting banks like Bank of America... Chase... and others on the chopping block.

It also would've forced them to admit that the titles of about 70% of the homes in America were completely screwed up... which kinda of wrecks the whole concept of home ownership.

It wasn't just the fact that they would've wrecked banks and thrown bunches of folks in jail. the biggest problem would've been facing the fact that those title searches were pointless now. They screwed up that bad.

Everything they did... they did to allow them to sweep that fact under the rug.

Blogger Michael O'Duibhir October 05, 2015 8:14 AM  

Cataline Sergius

"The real problem started with Greenspan."

Yes, if we're talking about the 2008 scam. The real roots of the problem, however, reach back to a secret meeting of the banking cartel which occurred on Jekyll Island in 1910. That's when the Federal Reserve scam was hatched by the following: Nelson W. Aldrich, Abraham Piatt Andrew, Frank Vanderlip, Henry P. Davison, Benjamin Strong, and Paul M. Warburg.

The real brains behind the cabal was Warburg, an agent of the Rothschild banking empire in England and France. Of those in attendance, only Warburg was an expert in European central banking. If anyone can be called the father of the Federal Reserve system it is he--it is he who not only dominated the meeting but also crafted the wording of the Federal Reserve legislation.

Blogger Dago October 05, 2015 9:04 AM  

Rope and lamposts

Blogger DadOfTen October 05, 2015 9:04 AM  

Andrew Jackson. My mind keeps going back to one of the few men to ever be responsible for shutting down a central bank. Isn't that a delightful thought?

Amazingly, there was no collapse of the US economy.

Close down the Fed today and there would be a huge crater. Out of that crater might spring forth honest money, honest prices, honest government.

Who am I kidding? It is the people's quest for power, money status, and the lusts of the flesh without responsibility to produce and live with the results of them, that drive our problems. The Fed and its policies are only outgrowths.

Blogger Nate October 05, 2015 9:19 AM  

DadofTen

You shouldn't bring up Andrew Jackson... he was mean to Vox's ancestors.

Blogger Stilicho #0066 October 05, 2015 9:26 AM  

@ 9, Eric, the point is, if you're going to create a moral hazard by rewarding a culpable class, it is better to reward the less culpable class. In this case, foolish homeowners are less culpable than the foolish (and often criminal) banks. However, you are correct that it is better to avoid the moral hazard altogether.

Switching topics: nate is right, a currency collapse isn't as big a deal as many think. Life and economic activity go on. It absolutely sucks for those who hold a large part of their assets in the form of that currency, so a wise man will diversify into various sorts of real assets that will still be assets regardless of which currency is in use.

Blogger bearspaw October 05, 2015 9:30 AM  

Ben's editors wisely left out the words " I Lacked " from the book title.

Blogger Athor Pel October 05, 2015 9:59 AM  

"23. Blogger Nate October 05, 2015 8:10 AM
...
The financial shenanigans meant that if they followed the law... they'd be putting banks like Bank of America... Chase... and others on the chopping block.
...
the biggest problem would've been facing the fact that those title searches were pointless now. They screwed up that bad.
..."



Bank of America did something pretty shitty at that time. They transferred a big chunk of derivatives from their commercial banking side to their consumer banking side. Those derivative contracts have first call on bank assets in the event of a bankruptcy. The derivatives were many times larger than the private deposits on the consumer side of the business. If BoA goes into bankruptcy consumer depositors get nothing. Therefore BoA held a metaphorical gun to head of their consumer depositors, like you and me, so as to black mail the government into bailing them out.

Now about the property titles.
The destruction of the title documents was illegal on its own. But I'm of the opinion that the intent was to cloud the title on so many properties so as to make foreclosure on any property, bank connected or not, in arrears or not, an easier prospect. In other words legal theft on a scale grander than any before it.

OpenID basementhomebrewer October 05, 2015 9:59 AM  

To clarify my earlier comment I was referring to the ashes of Lehman brothers, merril Lynch etc. They deal in paper and most of it is worthless. There is nothing there that an entrepreneur could pick back up and make work, which makes the loss of that wealth hurt all the more.

I agree with most people capable of reason.It needs to collapse sooner rather than later because the longer it continues the worse the collapse will become.

Blogger Josh October 05, 2015 10:00 AM  

They had to bail the banks out. The likely political fallout of perhaps millions of people losing either life savings or significant chunks of wealth in a one off meltdown would have been huge.

1) No they didn't.
2) Millions of people, especially the bottom 80%, were wiped out.

Get your facts straight.

Blogger Nate October 05, 2015 10:13 AM  

"The destruction of the title documents was illegal on its own."

yep. The fact is whole federal prisons could've been filled up dealing with just that one issue.

Blogger YIH October 05, 2015 10:18 AM  

@7:
I always get a kick out of seeing such badly written spam.

Blogger Doom October 05, 2015 10:18 AM  

In one sense, I do think Nate has a serious point. It won't affect, to a greater degree, us peons. It will create havoc among the elites, major corporations, and governments. Anyone who is too big to fail will do just that. The rest of us won't even notice it, mostly. The void created will be filled... just a bit slower for a while until that happens. But just imagine elites not even able to afford a big screen tv. Many of those guys will commit suicide. Most of us won't. I'd love to see Kerry dumpster diving. Though... maybe he already does? Soros fighting him over the prime dumpsters? Yeah, it would be good to see.

Unless they bring it all down around them by creating WWIII. And they might just do it.

Blogger bob k. mando October 05, 2015 10:20 AM  

5. Doom October 05, 2015 3:58 AM
citizens not getting a cut, etc. The error is from being on the inside


the citizens ( think they ) ARE getting a cut in the game.

that's what SocSec / MedicAid / 'free' public schooling / health 'insurance' are all about.

keep the voters all fighting over their protecting their own little slice of thievery, nobody ( to speak of ) pays any attention to the massive theft ( currency devaluation, national indebtedness, manipulation of investment markets ) going on at the top.



15. Nate October 05, 2015 7:13 AM
People will never stop buying and selling stuff.



i would reply that your failure to consider production is a pretty major error.

( real ) wealth is excess USEFUL production. once you have that, you can direct it anywhere ... as the Chinese are now building aircraft carriers.

one of the greatest successes of the Frankfurt School is that they have converted our educational system into a production line which produces human adults of negative productive value.


22. JAY WILL October 05, 2015 8:08 AM
if its a matter of making sure I don't get shot today I'd rather do what is necessary to not get shot now and worry about the long term another day.



there is a very, VERY large gulf between getting worried that the hoi polloi are going to swing you from lamp posts and scrambling to maintain your position at the head of the feed trough.

the bankstas are at the head of the feed trough.

Blogger Nate October 05, 2015 10:37 AM  

"i would reply that your failure to consider production is a pretty major error.

( real ) wealth is excess USEFUL production. once you have that, you can direct it anywhere ... as the Chinese are now building aircraft carriers.

one of the greatest successes of the Frankfurt School is that they have converted our educational system into a production line which produces human adults of negative productive value."

People aren't going to stop making things either. They will change the things they make. They will change the way they trade.

Look at Greece. Still making stuff. Still buying and selling stuff.

Also... your definition of wealth is wrong. "useful" has nothing to do with it. It doesn't matter if its useful or not. All that matters is if people actually want it.

See Pet Rock for details.

Blogger W.LindsayWheeler October 05, 2015 11:09 AM  

What Bernake is doing is absolving himself before this whole thing blows. It is a PR campaign to say, "Not Me. I wasn't responsible." when the economic collapse comes.

Like he didn't know it was coming; Like he didn't work for it. The plan all along was to crash the economy--to prove capitalism doesn't work. To usher in the NWO Socialist Utopian state.

Blogger Michael O'Duibhir October 05, 2015 11:15 AM  

I would like to think that the majority of productive citizens are paying attention to what is happening in the US and just who is really behind it all.

Blogger Josh October 05, 2015 11:17 AM  

The plan all along was to crash the economy--to prove capitalism doesn't work. To usher in the NWO Socialist Utopian state.

No it wasn't.

Blogger Nate October 05, 2015 11:19 AM  

"Like he didn't know it was coming; Like he didn't work for it. The plan all along was to crash the economy--to prove capitalism doesn't work. To usher in the NWO Socialist Utopian state. "

That's amazingly stupid. If they planned for the crash to happen... why did they bail everyone out to stop the crash?


Blogger The Other Robot October 05, 2015 11:21 AM  

Meanwhile, immigrant employment levels grow faster than native levels and the UAW will not be happy with the Trans Pacific Partnership.

Blogger Josh October 05, 2015 11:22 AM  

I would like to think that the majority of productive citizens are paying attention to what is happening in the US and just who is really behind it all.

Actually the majority of productive citizens probably blame the evil lazy poors who took advantage of those helpless banks that Jimmy Carter forced to loan money to minorities...

Blogger dh October 05, 2015 11:51 AM  

Actually the majority of productive citizens probably blame the evil lazy poors who took advantage of those helpless banks that Jimmy Carter forced to loan money to minorities...

This is really stupid. The CRA regulated a tiny percentage of loans, worth an almost insignificant amount. There is zero percent chance that this had anything to do with the problems in the market.

Blogger Nate October 05, 2015 12:04 PM  

"This is really stupid. The CRA regulated a tiny percentage of loans, worth an almost insignificant amount. There is zero percent chance that this had anything to do with the problems in the market."

God dammit DH...

Blogger IM2L844 October 05, 2015 12:11 PM  

That's amazingly stupid. If they planned for the crash to happen... why did they bail everyone out to stop the crash?

Graduated conditioning. There will be a couple more cycles before the frog is boiling. Trust your overlords to fix it. Everything must appear as if it's the only pragmatic thing left to do. The god of this world is content to stay off the radar...for now.

Blogger Robert What? October 05, 2015 12:13 PM  

If there was any real justice, Bernanke would be sharing a cell block with Bernie Madoff.

Blogger Josh October 05, 2015 12:15 PM  

This is really stupid. The CRA regulated a tiny percentage of loans, worth an almost insignificant amount. There is zero percent chance that this had anything to do with the problems in the market.

Woosh...

Blogger Danby October 05, 2015 12:22 PM  

IML and Wheeler have an amazingly optimistic view of the competence of the people who run our financial systems.

OpenID Steve October 05, 2015 12:31 PM  

"We were very, very determined not to let it collapse,"

I certainly do believe that he would have wanted to prop up even Barney Madoff and Corzine with taxpayer's debt.

Why reward people who are too incompetent to pay off their loans?

I would say what happened was even worse for the US, with taxpayer money providing bonuses to those responsible.

Why reward business that are too incompetent to make good loans?

They had been forced to give loans to non Asian minorities with bad credit despite the fact everyone at the same credit rating had the same default rate. The govt used majik thinking that if non Asian minorities owned majik dirt it would transform them.

@19Nate Which... isn't nearly as big a deal as people think it is.

Says the person with gold and bullets buried in the backyard. It will take some time after the collapse before those can be used to pay for delivery pizza.

@25 Close down the Fed today and there would be a huge crater. Out of that crater might spring forth honest money, honest prices, honest government

What about the 6 million that would be lost in the crater?
-BGS

Blogger bob k. mando October 05, 2015 12:36 PM  

36. Nate October 05, 2015 10:37 AM
People aren't going to stop making things either.



bullshit.

tell me what they 'make' in Cabrini Green or Detroit.

large swathes of the population now do nothing useful and make no product or service of value in exchange for their monthly EBT power up ( more theft from productive citizens ).


36. Nate October 05, 2015 10:37 AM
Also... your definition of wealth is wrong. "useful" has nothing to do with it. It doesn't matter if its useful or not. All that matters is if people actually want it.

See Pet Rock for details.


*shrugs*

why not just go back to tulip bulbs?

but you're not grasping what i'm getting at, anyways. perhaps i wasn't specific enough.

*i* am talking about how wealth is created.

*you* are talking about foolish ways ( bread and circuses ) to expend the collected capital.

stated alternately, you are asserting that paid window breakers ( there is 'demand' for them ) add to GDP ... and i disagree.

more properly, i consider it evidence that the current GDP calculation is idiotic and critically flawed ... because with the formula they use now, window breakers ( Baltimore rioters, etc ) paid via EBT card *are* considered to add to GDP for formula purposes.



38. Michael O'Duibhir October 05, 2015 11:15 AM
I would like to think that the majority of productive citizens are paying attention to what is happening in the US and just who is really behind it all.



*shrugs*

you can 'like to think' anything at all.

i live out in rural, conservative Indiana. all the life long Republican retiree voters can't wait to get on SocSec ( theft from their grandchildren ) and then 'spend their children's inheritance' vacationing in Fla. or in Fred Reed's case, Mexico.


because they "deserve" it.

mpai.

Blogger frigger611 October 05, 2015 12:55 PM  

I read recently that during GW Bush's presidency, something like 1500 investigations/prosecutions were mounted by the Justice Dept against big firms engaging in chicanery, e.g. Enron, Global Crossing, MCI, etc

But after the biggest meltdown since the 1930s the Obama Justice Dept has investigated/prosecuted precisely zero. Not sure if this is accurate, but I haven't seen any high profile heads of firms going to jail. Just some auto execs testifying to Congress and lampooned on SNL.

John Corzine (D, former governor) lost billions with his IMF hedge fund, clearly violated laws using deposits to cover losses - congress asked him where the money went and he shrugged, saying "I dunno." Which was good enough for the investigators who said "alrighty then, thanks for coming by."

Fannie and Freddie bled dry, still Franklin Raines got a $70 million bonus. No investigation there. Rather, promoted to Obama's inner circle.

But snipers sent to the southwest because some cattle rancher might've been in arrears.

Dems always proud to expose excesses in government, undercover reporting of wrenches used for military aircraft maintenance that cost the taxpayer $1500. No such love for undercover reporting exposing Planned Parenthood, beneficiary of taxpayer support, making $$$ millions from baby parts.

These days whistle blowers who call out the trouble makers and sheisters are the only ones prosecuted and jailed.

Blogger Floyd Looney October 05, 2015 1:01 PM  

The Federal Reserve Bank should be the first arrested

Blogger Dan in Tx October 05, 2015 1:06 PM  

BGS: "What about the 6 million that would be lost in the crater?"

I literally LOLed @ "The 6 million."

Blogger Nate October 05, 2015 1:11 PM  

"stated alternately, you are asserting that paid window breakers ( there is 'demand' for them ) add to GDP ... and i disagree."

No.

You don't understand that demand matters... and utility does not.

Blogger Michael O'Duibhir October 05, 2015 1:16 PM  

Bob K. Mando

'you can 'like to think' anything at all.'

Keyword "like"
Lately in conversations with some people who heretofore have assiduously avoided responding to overtures from me regarding certain "forbidden" topics--e.g., the violent black underclass, the Zionist agenda to conquer the world and then rule it with an iron fist, the duplicity of the governing class (both here and abroad) in aiding and abetting the Zionists by implementing their agenda, among other things--I have noticed a marked sense of alarm in that they finally recognized that we actually have enemies who seek to do us harm. That encourages me.
However, I don't kid myself that this is necessarily a sign that the majority of the productive class are smelling the coffee now. Still, I "like to think" that it is a sign.

I have hope.

Blogger Nate October 05, 2015 1:21 PM  

"tell me what they 'make' in Cabrini Green or Detroit."

Again... this is like looking at unemployed ice men and claiming that refridgerators wrecked the employment rate.

You're taking one specific area and trying to apply it to a whole country. They don't make cars in detroit? oh well. They make lots of them in Alabama and Mississippi... and Kentucky... and Indiana... and Tennessee... And South Carolina.

Notice a pattern here?

Its almost like there is no such thing as Macro Economics. Probably... because there is no such thing as Macro Economics.

Blogger Nate October 05, 2015 1:27 PM  

"Says the person with gold and bullets buried in the backyard. It will take some time after the collapse before those can be used to pay for delivery pizza."

If I was worried... I wouldn't be here. I'm here... because what you guys are calling a collapse... I am looking forward to as an opportunity

OpenID Steve October 05, 2015 1:40 PM  

all the life long Republican retiree voters can't wait to get on SocSec

I know without a doubt that I will not receive anywhere near the value that has been taken on my behalf out of the system if I live to be 200+years old. Puerto Ricans in Puerto Rico collect social security disability for NO SPEAK ENGLISH without ever positively contributing to society. There are 5th generation non workers in the US whose lives are nothing but a vacation.

You don't understand that demand matters... and utility does not.

I am pretty sure I remember that the people burning down the CVS in Baltimore demanded it be rebuilt.

because what you guys are calling a collapse...I am looking forward to as an opportunity

Hoping to pick up a Van Gogh painting for a can of beans?
-BGS

Blogger Nate October 05, 2015 1:54 PM  

"I am pretty sure I remember that the people burning down the CVS in Baltimore demanded it be rebuilt."

and I'm pretty sure you don't have any idea what we're actually talking about.

Blogger bob k. mando October 05, 2015 2:31 PM  

54. Nate October 05, 2015 1:11 PM
No.
You don't understand that demand matters... and utility does not.


no.
you don't understand that wealth and debt notes ( which is mostly what the USD is today ) are NOT equivalents.

is there plenty of 'demand' for the Las Vegas flashy lights and slot machines? sure.

so what? without the fiat dollar, deficit spending and easy credit/debt, LV couldn't exist ( as it is today ) because there wouldn't be any significant 'demand' for it.



56. Nate October 05, 2015 1:21 PM
Notice a pattern here?


yes, i notice that you're moving the goalposts.

your ORIGINAL assertion was
"14. Nate October 05, 2015 7:13 AM
The economy is people buying and selling stuff.
People will never stop buying and selling stuff."

a - production is a prerequisite to "selling stuff"
b - millions of people in Detroit NO LONGER produce anything that anyone will pay them for ... which is why houses are being bulldozed by the acre.

the fact that cars are now produced in not-Detroit has nothing to do with the FACT that Detroit no longer produces cars ... or much of anything else.

Detroit STOPPED PRODUCING. because Detroit stopped useful production they STOPPED SELLING. because external-to-Detroit no longer had any "demand" for modern Detroit's non-products.

Detroit still has millions of people in population.

*you* asserted that such things didn't happen.

Detroit conclusively proves your assertion false.

to the extent that Detroit has not completely collapsed ( and it is mostly collapsed ) is due only to EBT cards and other FedGov wealth transfers from productive areas of the country/world which enables millions to sit on their asses doing NOTHING ... but still generating your precious artificial demand.

TANSTAAFL

you have forgotten that people, in the end, must produce something of *value* in order to 'buy'.

otherwise, they will not have the accumulated wealth necessary to purchase something ( all trade being voluntary exchange between two parties ). anything else is unsustainable.

we have / are transforming from a "wealth producing" society to a "debt accumulation" society.

and a debt accumulation society can only accumulate debt so long as societies which actually create wealth extend debt ( Chinese purchases of US T-bills, as a fer instance ) to the debt accumulation society.

the day that debt extension by wealthy societies to the debt accumulator ( acceptance of USD as legal tender ) end is the day that US demand for foreign product ends.

everything in the modern world teeters on the USD being the world reserve currency.

we were not the first world reserve currency. we will ( excepting the Apocalypse ) not be the last.

the question is how big of a smoking hole we're going to leave when the artificial edifice of fiat money and debt spending comes crashing down.

Blogger freddie_mac October 05, 2015 2:37 PM  

@49 BGS

"Why reward business that are too incompetent to make good loans?

They had been forced to give loans to non Asian minorities with bad credit despite the fact everyone at the same credit rating had the same default rate. The govt used majik thinking that if non Asian minorities owned majik dirt it would transform them."

Yep. So, in response to the financial problems, banks tightened lending standards (even people with good credit couldn't get loans), but now the Gov't is sniffing around because the protected classes (i.e., people at high risk of default) can't get loans, so obviously the banks are discriminating against them, and banks will be forced to make more loans to these groups as part of their punishment ...

the more things change, the more they stay the same

OpenID Steve October 05, 2015 2:39 PM  

Since we are talking about Detriot it has 2 industries of note, but smaller than government work. One is disaster porn, if you are shooting a movie about post civilization you don't need special effects. The other is cheating the rules of the metal exchanges by having lots of warehouses in a region all count as one for the rules to prevent storing up massive amounts to manipulate metals prices.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/29/us-lme-warehousing-idUSTRE76R3YZ20110729

Not many actual jobs created, fill up warehouse put cameras on it, seal the doors so that blacks couldn't get in.

Blogger Nate October 05, 2015 2:59 PM  

Bob...

You can't read.

Also...

"a - production is a prerequisite to "selling stuff""

No it isn't. I can go sell all kinds of things that are not produced. We call these things services. Now we both agree that these "services" don't generate real wealth. They are however bought and sold. And always have been.

Now... lets talk about Detroit specifically... setting aside the fact that I never said anything about any micro area... city or otherwise... looking at detroit you claim it isn't buying selling or producing.

Well that's bullshit Bob.. and you have probably already looked up the numbers yourself and know its bullshit. Detroit isn't dead. Its having a bad time. Its adjusting very slowly... but it is adjusting.

As for the millions... at its peak there were almost 2 million people in Detroit. now there are less than 800,000 people there.

So no. There are not "millions". here's another fact... that peak? it was in the 60s. Detroit has been dying for 50 years. None of this is new. Jobs left detroit and went to places like mexico... and alabama.. and kentucky... and tennessee. None of that has to do with the financial system collapse. Most of the damage was already done 10 years before the collapse even happened.

Detroit's unemployment is reported at 7.8%. Now I don't believe that... and I doubt you do ether.. but the fact is the city is still there.. and there are plenty of people making stuff there. There are tons of working factories.

There are tons of people buying stuff... selling stuff... and making stuff.

In otherwords... you're wrong on a simple concrete level...and you're wrong on the philosophical level. Economies are not monetary systems. They aren't dollars moving around. Economies are people.

As long as there are people... there is an economy. Maybe they trade with barter. Maybe they trade cows for sheep and pigs for women.

Whatever. Its still an economy.

A monetary collapse can shut down businesses temporarily. It cannot shut it down and kill it permanently. Only migration can do that.

Blogger The Monarche October 05, 2015 3:27 PM  

As usual on any thread about economics, Nate rushes in to fill the entire thread with post after post of nonsensical idiocy, and changes his argument over and over every time his idiocy is corrected.

VD did his readership a serious disfavor by calling the series between he and Nate a "debate", it was no more a debate than one of Alabama's nine patsy games a season can be called a "contest", but by referring to it as such, Nate came to the conclusion that he is something more than a brain-damaged drunkard Alabama househusband.

Blogger bob k. mando October 05, 2015 3:36 PM  

63. Nate October 05, 2015 2:59 PM
looking at detroit you claim it isn't buying selling or producing.
...
There are tons of people buying stuff... selling stuff... and making stuff.



*sigh*

i'm simplifying for effect. and i think you know that perfectly well.

if nothing else, we both know that all of the Big Three are still headquartered in metro Detroit. which means that there are 10s of thousands of white collars running around in the corp hubs.

your pointing out that Detroit no longer numbers in the millions is the same type of nitpicking. the best kind of correct.

also, i've already addressed the subject of artificial demand from Detroit. an argument which IMPLICITLY REQUIRES Detroit to be able to display demand.


63. Nate October 05, 2015 2:59 PMWe call these things services. Now we both agree that these "services" don't generate real wealth.


no, we don't.

i would MUCH rather have a Newton or Tesla pay a family of Irish to do his housekeeping, clothing and food procurement / prep services than do for himself.

because Newton's work with math and physics, although a 'service' itself, acts as a force multiplier in engineering / tool production / WEALTH CREATION.

and Newton's service work was work that few others were mentally equipped to do.

Tesla was even more directly productive than Newton was.


63. Nate October 05, 2015 2:59 PM
Maybe they trade cows for sheep and pigs for women.



useful production being traded for useful production? glad to see you agree with me.

the modern delusion is that fiat+debt money is a desirable substitute for useful production. hence the artificial demand for fiat+debt money.

this will not last.


63. Nate October 05, 2015 2:59 PM
Only migration can do that.


except when the migration is forced by the business shut downs in the first place ...

as in Detroit ...

oh, look. here we are, right back where i started.



63. Nate October 05, 2015 2:59 PM
As long as there are people...


which is why the richest countries on the face of the planet in 1970 were the two most populous countries, China and India. because "as long as there are people" ...

wait, that doesn't seem right. that doesn't seem right at all.

i wonder what on earth the problem could be ...

Blogger IM2L844 October 05, 2015 4:12 PM  

IML and Wheeler have an amazingly optimistic view of the competence of the people who run our financial systems.

I can't speak for Wheeler, but I have an amazing degree of confidence in the word of God and His claim of the influence being exerted by the god of this world. My expectations are not due to my admittedly poor understanding of economics, but are informed by my somewhat better understanding of biblical prophecy. We will have centralized global governance. How do we get there from here?

Blogger Josh October 05, 2015 4:18 PM  

My expectations are not due to my admittedly poor understanding of economics, but are informed by my somewhat better understanding of biblical prophecy.

/facepalm

Blogger Nate October 05, 2015 6:04 PM  

"except when the migration is forced by the business shut downs in the first place ...

as in Detroit ...

oh, look. here we are, right back where i started."

Yes. so long as you mean you've created a circular argument.

I said people weren't going to stop trading stuff. They haven't. They never have. In every so called economic collapse... people still made stuff... still bought stuff.. and still traded stuff.

Blogger Nate October 05, 2015 6:12 PM  

"October 05, 2015 3:27 PM


As usual on any thread about economics, Nate rushes in to fill the entire thread with post after post of nonsensical idiocy, and changes his argument over and over every time his idiocy is corrected. "

So you don't understand basic austrian economics... and yet here you are on the blog of an austrian economist that used austrian principles to make every prediction he's ever gotten right on economics.

fascinating.

I'll also note that I didn't change my argument at all. I was talking about economics... which is trade. Bob baited and switched to production. And he was still wrong on his own measures. Detroit still has an economy and its problems weren't even started by any systemic collapse.. but by tort and idiotic laws.

Your own inability to follow a simply discussion or grasp basic austrian econ says a lot about you sugartits... not about me.

Blogger bob k. mando October 05, 2015 11:06 PM  

68. Nate October 05, 2015 6:04 PM
people still made stuff



which is "useful production" ... assuming they succeed in trading it.

funny how those Ethiopians in the 80s couldn't feed themselves. certainly seems like they had a lot of unmet demand.



68. Nate October 05, 2015 6:04 PM
Bob baited and switched to production.



NO.

i pointed out that without useful AND excess production YOU HAVE NOTHING TO TRADE. it's a prerequisite without which trade CANNOT OCCUR.

i'm also pointing out the perfectly obvious fact that large populations of people can fail to produce significant tradeable goods or services for quite a long time.

Australian Aboriginals, for instance, had an entire continent to themselves. for eons. useful goods produced or significant actualization of natural resources? practically non-existent. they barely got beyond hand-to-mouth and day-to-day living.

something critical is missing from your "population creates demand and demand creates trade, yo" hypothesis.



68. Nate October 05, 2015 6:04 PM
And he was still wrong on his own measures. Detroit still has an economy



not an economy that can support a population of 2 millions. Detroit has shed some 50% of it's population and it's still collapsing.

you are asserting a magic dirt theory which posits that 1910s-50s Detroit transformed non-productive Southern whites and blacks ( in their home states ) into some phantasm of productivity once they reached the environs of Wayne county.

which is not what happened at all.

Henry Ford and the rest of the auto builders figured out efficiencies and production methodologies so that Detroit was the most efficient place for auto manufacturing in the world.

this allowed them to sell cars for less than anybody else in the world.

this allowed them to grow their demand curve for auto sales.

greater auto demand led to greater labor demand ... to produce more cars.

greater labor demand led to higher wages, which was the impetus for people to move to Detroit.

now that auto production is almost non-existent in Detroit there are very few blue collar jobs. without blue collar jobs, there's no need for 2 million people.

so the blue collars, WHO STILL HAVE ALL THE SAME DEMANDS THEY HAD 50 YEARS AGO ... leave.

gosh, why don't they just stay in Detroit and, you know, trade?

you are trying to invert the production / immigration curves and have confused cause for effect.

oh, and there was a 'magic' in Detroit. it's just that it wasn't magic dirt. Henry called it the "production line".

funny, that.



something else for observers to consider:
there are two major applications of "Economics". we call them Macro and Micro.

i'll leave it as an exercise in logic for the readers to see what Nate has done with that and to identify which branch of economics Nate purports to be using.

Blogger SciVo October 05, 2015 11:45 PM  

I'm just glad that you guys are arguing the philosophy of economics, which is sorely neglected by the professionals.

Can we all agree on the following?

1. A living human will do what it takes to get his needs met. He will have effective demand, with force or subterfuge if necessary.

2. In order for him to have free trade, he needs to produce more of something than he needs for himself.

3. Men are flexible. If a man can't do one thing profitably, because someone somewhere else can do it for less, then he will find something else to do.

4. Men are adventurous. If a man can do better elsewhere -- perhaps even doing the same thing, because of a favorable regulatory environment -- then many men will move.

I'm trying to narrow down the precise points of disagreement.

Blogger bob k. mando October 05, 2015 11:49 PM  

i would also like to note, in agreement with Andrew, that everyone on VP completely agrees with everyone else ( especially Vox ) and we're just rah-rahing into an echo chamber.

Blogger Josh October 05, 2015 11:52 PM  

i would also like to note, in agreement with Andrew, that everyone on VP completely agrees with everyone else ( especially Vox ) and we're just rah-rahing into an echo chamber.

I absolutely agree 100% with this and would like to echo your comment.

Blogger SciVo October 06, 2015 12:12 AM  

Well duh, that's self-evidently true, and of course I agree with it since that's what we do here.

Blogger Groot October 06, 2015 12:23 AM  

Nate is a house-husband?

Blogger bob k. mando October 06, 2015 12:46 AM  

71. SciVo October 05, 2015 11:45 PM
1. A living human will do what it takes to get his needs met. He will have effective demand, with force or subterfuge if necessary.


no, i don't agree. especially if he has to resort to force. because all that's necessary there is that he be countered by greater force, ie - two men. now his demands are unmet.

consider the Imperial Chinese solution to a famine:
the local administrator would choose a village, by whatever criteria, slaughter everyone in that village, confiscate what foodstuffs and livestocks they had and

...

transfer most of these goods to a neighboring village.

neither village had produced enough goods to trade for survival, neither would have succeeded in slaughtering the other, but one village survives almost intact.

and the surviving village lives in stark quaking fear of the representative of the emperor. once again, we find population + demand insufficient to generate beneficial and needed trade.

in order for trade to exist, you must have these conditions:
1 - excess useful production, which is Supply
2 - Demand
3 - at least two parties with both COMPLEMENTARY Demands and COMPLEMENTARY *excess Supply*

after all, i may have food in my winter larder. but if by selling/trading you that food i'm going to starve my child before spring?

ain't no trading going to happen, bitch. even if i think that's a mighty fine pair of mukluks that you're offering me for my seal carcass.

another consideration about force is that this is simply intra-species carnivorous predation.

carnivores prey on other animals. strong arm robbery or the pillaging of the Golden Horde fall here.

herbivores prey on vegetation, and the vegetation, while harmed, usually survives the experience. slavery and indentured servitude probably go here.

parasites / viruses are small organisms which prey on other entities, usually without the awareness of the entity being fed upon. thievery and other forms of generally passive malfeasance fall here.

vegetation "preys on" light and carbon dioxide ( venus flytraps aside ), and so is outside the predator / prey dynamic so far as it's livelihood is concerned.

trade is symbiosis. it is unique amongst all methods of survival in that it works to the benefit of BOTH parties.

without mutual benefit, you do not have true trade.

Money is simply a trade solvent.

everyone mutually agrees that they will consider 'Money' to be a universal proxy for Wealth ( excess useful production ) such that it satisfies all Demand.

this allows all citizens to substitute Money for Supply in Supply / Demand equation and we can then concentrate on satisfying our individual Demand desires through the procurement of more Money.

extrapolating on from this is the question, "What is the basis of our Money?"

in the US, USD Money *used to be* Constitutionally defined as a certain quantity of Silver or Gold ( bimetallism ). this is a form of Commodity backed Money.

we have since dispensed with such backward concepts as Concrete value and have decided that our Money should be completely Imaginary / Abstract.

considering that throughout history, both Governments and Banks have demonstrated a distressing tendency to inflate / devalue Money whenever they have the chance even with a theoretical Commodity backing requirement ...

the idea that they are now able to devalue the Money with no Commodity requirement whatsoever is pretty disturbing.



Blogger bob k. mando October 06, 2015 12:54 AM  

75. Groot October 06, 2015 12:23 AM
Nate is a house-husband?


you are Groot.

Blogger SciVo October 06, 2015 1:16 AM  

Okay! Now we can focus the discussion more. Can we agree on the following?

5. Currency is whatever people are willing to accept in trade for a good or service, essentially an IOU.

6. When someone has control of the production of abstract IOUs, he will tend to manage it for the benefit of himself and those he identifies with and cares about -- his tribe, as it were.

7. When those IOUs are not tied to a limited resource, then eventually they will be issued to a point where they are worthless, because of #6.

Now. We have a clear point of disagreement on #1. It is immoral to use force or deception, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Not all economics is voluntary with informed consent.

Blogger rho October 06, 2015 1:49 AM  

blah blah Lehman Brothers blah blah

If your economy depends on a brand, you've done screwed up. Even if fixing Lehman would have prevented a crisis, it doesn't change the fact that there was a single point of failure. (Or in this case, multiple single points of failure.)

Economies benefit from a stable currency. A stable currency means the margins are found in efficiency. Efficiency is where progress is made.

If there is a role for a central bank, it is to keep a currency stable. It certainly is not to pick winners from its stable of potential losers.

Nate's point, if he had one, is that currency is not money, and money will be always be traded. It may be dollars, it may be beans, it may be 22LR, but it will always exist. And measuring that against LEH is only interesting if you like spikey graphs.

Blogger SciVo October 06, 2015 3:57 AM  

Okay, let's see if we can add one.

8. Once the issuers of abstract IOUs take action to protect their tribe over yours, it is clear that an economic war has begun, and your goal should be to win.

Blogger Cinco October 06, 2015 5:24 AM  

I think a brief moment of honesty is necessary here. First, the world's reserve currency has never before collapsed. So anyone who is using the past a reliable metric for dealing with the dollar collapse is comparing apples to oranges. Second, Nate is entirely correct when he says that whatever is coming is going to be an opportunity. Get liquid people. Because when the Saudi GDP plummets the price of oil and natural gas is going to sky rocket, at least that is where my eggs are going.

Blogger Cinco October 06, 2015 5:25 AM  

I think a brief moment of honesty is necessary here. First, the world's reserve currency has never before collapsed. So anyone who is using the past a reliable metric for dealing with the dollar collapse is comparing apples to oranges. Second, Nate is entirely correct when he says that whatever is coming is going to be an opportunity. Get liquid people. Because when the Saudi GDP plummets the price of oil and natural gas is going to sky rocket, at least that is where my eggs are going.

Blogger SciVo October 06, 2015 5:41 AM  

It wasn't the world reserve currency at the time, but the dollar has collapsed before. (Deflation can be as destructive as inflation.) I've watched a video of FDR sitting at a table with some WPA guys, talking about how the food there was some simple, honest fare, but enough that they could loosen their belts. And then I understood how he got a lifetime re-election.

Blogger SciVo October 06, 2015 5:46 AM  

You would understand too if you saw how alpha he was, and how malnourished those guys were. Seriously, I'd elect him too.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 06, 2015 1:33 PM  

Dammit Nate.
I grew up just north of Detroit. Practically all of my family worked for the auto industry in one form or another.
Back in the early 1970's, on cool mornings, the sky was FILLED with plumes of steam rising out of the stacks of buildings with productive industrial activity going on inside. From high points, such as the I-75/Davidson Highway interchange, or the I-96/Southfield Highway (M-35) interchange, you could see hundreds, even thousands of steam plumes rising out of productive businesses in Detroit.

Currently, even ... on a COLD day... you don't see any steam rising out of anything in Detroit. Cadillac Plant #1, at the corner of Michigan and Clark...GONE... out of 50 buildings, the only one which remains is the former engineering building, which the city made into a high school. The rest of the plant was removed without a trace remaining, other than a railroad siding outside of the adjacent switching yard. Fisher Body Plant a couple miles south next to I-75 in the Del Rey neighborhood, next to historic Fort Wayne... Demolished.
The Chevrolet plant next to the I-75/I-94 interchange... now the "Russell Center"... a supposed retail venue...home to less than a dozen flea-ridden attempts at retail. I've seen more vigorous commerce out of the back of a panel van in an unpaved parking lot on a non-descript corner.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 06, 2015 1:33 PM  

[Part 2]



Go to Google Maps and locate Piquette Street... to the east of Woodward to I-75 is the literal BIRTHPLACE of the Detroit auto industry. The buildings at the east end of Piquette... just before the bridge over I-75 was a modern body plant. Not only is IT demolished, but the railways on the overpass crossing I-75 have been removed...and stupidly a VERY small business built on the former railbed (which now precludes using that area as a railroad right-of-way again without having to tear down the new building). You'll notice that Google Maps calls this section of I-75 tyhe Chrysler Freeway... Just a couple miles north of I-75.... just south of the interchange with the Davidson Freeway... is the remains of the Chrysler Plant for which this section of freeway was named. Notice I said REMAINS. Over 50% of it has been demolished. From there, move due WEST to Woodward Avenue... there you will find the Model T Plaza... sitting on what USED to be the Model T plant (one building remains...a warehouse). The Model T was originally built on Piquette Street...the plant on Woodward Avenue is the one featured in the film clip showing Model T's coming off the assembly line.. the frame with engine rolling out of the first floor while the body emerges out the 2nd floor, to be lowered onto the frame in an operation outside the building... THAT historic building was demolished. Back to I-75 and I-94, pan about 1 mile to the east along I-94, and see the surface street Concord Ave crossing I-94... follow that south, and you will see the remains of the Packard assembly plant. Not a single anything has been produced there in 50 years, other than trees and bushes growing out of dirt-filled cracks in the floors of the 50-odd buildings which make up this complex... some even growing on the 2nd and 3rd floors, to say nothing of the roofs.

I went there once to check it out for a photography assignment. Too many signs of shady activity there. I will NOT return to that place in its present condition without an AR-15 and 2 full magazines of ammunition.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 06, 2015 1:34 PM  

[Part 3]


Detroit is SO fucked up, that they are currently crowing about a BICYCLE company (Shinola) which assembles and sells incredibly overpriced bikes ($1,950 for a three-speed? REALLY? $2,950 for an ELEVEN(?)-speed? REALLY?????) . They assemble approximately 1000/year, which is about 3 per day. They also supposedly make 500,000 watches/year...but I've seen no evidence of that, as I have yet to see a single Shinola watch in any store in the area (other than the two company stores, one in Detroit, and the other among the pretentious SJW's of Ann Arbor). The Cadillac plant rolled out 3 cars in in 150 SECONDS (2.5 minutes), and was capable of reducing that to 3 cars in 2 minutes flat (40 seconds/vehicle).

Before the auto industry, Detroit was the world's primary supplier of cast-iron stoves, which is why Detroit became the Motor City... the city was already receiving large shipments of iron, and had the substantial tool and die businesses to support the cast-iron stove industry.

Now, it's all gone.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 06, 2015 1:35 PM  

[Part 4]


Welfarites on perma-vacation using their EBT cards do provide economic activity, but there is absolutely ZERO wealth being created. The wealth they are purchasing was first STOLEN from productive taxpayers.

Services are NOT necessarily wealth creation.

Let me put it to you this way, Nate. Say I hire you for $100 to mow my lawn... and you hire me for $100 to mow your lawn. We now have $200 of economic activity, but there is no more wealth in our community than if each of us had mown our own lawn. Services can improve wealth creation, but they are not wealth creation in their own right.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 06, 2015 1:49 PM  

By the way, in the late 1960's, Detroit was the richest city on the planet. Not only was it "The Motor City".. it was also "The City of Mansions".... Almost all of the 8 or so miles of Grand Boulevard (except for the commercial zone around Woodward Avenue) was lined with Mansions. Mile after mile of mansions. And those weren't the only ones. Detroit was littered with them. Now, most of them have been abandoned, turned into crack houses, set on fire, and finally, bulldozed, and their foundations filled in.

That's not wealth creation -- it's wealth DESTRUCTION.

Detroit has sucked down over $100 million from the Michigan budge for years... and God knows how much from the Federal budget. And still it continues to destroy more wealth than it creates.

It's so bad, that the 90% black population capitulated in their previously unswervingly racist determination to be governed by incompetent black bigots (Mayor Dave Bing being the sole exception... since retiring from the NBA a few decades ago, Bing is a successful businessman), they reached out in desperation and voted for a white man as Mayor.. by a 4:1 margin.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 06, 2015 1:52 PM  

"
I said people weren't going to stop trading stuff. They haven't. They never have. In every so called economic collapse... people still made stuff... still bought stuff.. and still traded stuff."

Detroit doesn't MAKE anything to get the money to buy the stuff they buy. The money they use to buy stuff comes from it being PILFERED out of other people's paychecks.

Economic activity != wealth creation.

DUH-FUCKING-DUH!

Blogger Dirk Manly October 06, 2015 2:04 PM  

"Because when the Saudi GDP plummets the price of oil and natural gas is going to sky rocket, at least that is where my eggs are going."

Nonsense.

When the price of oil and gas skyrockets, the Saudi GDP skyrockets.

Blogger Dirk Manly October 06, 2015 2:10 PM  

Nate, unless you've been to Detroit, don't even attempt to talk about it... because it is 100x worse than you can even imagine, even in your most drunken, hillbilly nightmares.

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