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Saturday, October 24, 2015

Why new readers don't read old authors

John C. Wright explains why in the midst of delving into literary aelvipology.
We are in the Dark Ages, and the darkness influences all things in society, including speculative literature. I mean the term not as an exaggeration or a metaphor: the technological products of our enlightened forefathers spring from the worldview which says science is a proper way to discover the mind of God by studying His works. Eliminating that God from one’s worldview eventually eliminates the respect for human life, free thought, and reason in law and custom which are necessary precursors to scientific endeavors, and eliminating science eliminates technology. Once the lamps go out, the darkness is everywhere, even in the little corners of society where children read books about spacerockets or elves.

The moderns have been taught to hate and loath their own country, their ancestors, their parents, and been told everything written before the current day is racist, sexist, homophobic, Islamophobic, transcismophobic, and pure evil. These nutbags think that their own standard bearers of the Progressive movement, the founders of their genre, were not Progressives like themselves.

One need only hear sexual libertarian and radical egalitarian nut Bob Heinlein being excoriated as a member of the misogynist phallocratic patriarchy to realize how far off the edge of the world the lunatics have sailed the ship of fools.

This is not some lunatic fringe belief. It is lunacy, of course, but not fringe. It is mainstream. The core institutions and standard bearers of Science Fiction, the largest publishers, the most prestigious awards, our once-respected guild the SFWA, the oldest and most famous magazine: they all buy into the narrative and all support the narrative with a singleminded fury that is Bolshevik in its vehemence, patience, and pettiness.

Progressives hate the past and seek forever to blacken, demean, and obliterate it. Anyone reading the older books would see immediately that the modern works are only merely equal, not as innovative, and that the modern award-winning works are notably inferior.

The notion of progress is the notion that the past is bad and the present is better and the future will be better yet. If you read old books and find that they are either slightly better or remarkably better than modern offerings, you see a decline, not a progress,  and the foundation of progressivism, is overthrown.
The reader will probably recognize that while the elves of Selenoth are a blend of Tolkienian and Longaevian, the Faeries of the Eternal Warriors trilogy are explicitly Longaevian.

Labels:

112 Comments:

Blogger Harry Spitz October 24, 2015 11:24 AM  

Sorry about my ignorance.
Tolkien I am quit familiar with, and I have read Throne of Bones, but what books do Longaevian elves come from?

Blogger Harry Spitz October 24, 2015 11:27 AM  

Never mind. Longaevian elves are just traditional elves - mischevous, menacing, and dangerous by turns.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 24, 2015 11:35 AM  

The mind of the Left is closed safely ensconced in its "safe space."

Blogger Joshua Sinistar October 24, 2015 11:44 AM  

I don't see this as a problem. After the God awful pablum from vibrant authors of color they are force fed in schools today, these Millenials probably don't read anything aside from text messages and e-mails. Most of us enjoy reading because we read Mark Twain and Shakespeare, Dickens and others while we went to Childrens' Prison. However, when you have to hear monosyllabic buffoons describe the horrible lives of living in the ghetto where they profanely threaten to kill you and your people, I imagine there comes a certain aversion to "literature". The bookstores are full of these screeds now. The publishing business has joined the fishwraps as the business that will soon be irrelevant.

Blogger JDC October 24, 2015 12:07 PM  

Progressives hate the past and seek forever to blacken, demean, and obliterate it. Anyone reading the older books would see immediately that the modern works are only merely equal, not as innovative, and that the modern award-winning works are notably inferior.

This quote came to mind, “Thus I have found as a tutor in English literature that if the average student wants to find something out about Platonism, the very last thing he thinks of doing is to take is to take a translation of Plato off the library shelf and read the Symposium. He would rather read some dreary book ten times as long, all about “isms” and influences and only once in twelve pages telling him what Plato actually said.” (Lewis, On the Reading of Old Books).

Now Lewis chocked this up to humility - readers not wanting to engage the greats face to face, but sadly that is not the case today. I see this very often in good meaning bible studies, where the participants never actually open a bible, but focus on the commentaries of Sproul, or Joyce Meyer, or Tim Lahaye...

Blogger Joshua Sinistar October 24, 2015 12:24 PM  

I love how people spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to attend elite Universities, and then read nothing but the Cliffs Notes versions of class assignments. And of course those wonderful ready made essays that you can buy online from former students or even current students. Education is such a fraud. When you see mediocrities like Hillary or Bush who went to Ivy League Universities, I imagine they were smoking pot at parties, while breezing through Cliffs Notes and simply regurgitating the professor's words in bland essays which merely told them what they wanted to hear. This is probably why they went into politics.

Blogger Travis Landenwitsch October 24, 2015 12:43 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Travis Landenwitsch October 24, 2015 12:51 PM  

I realize you all probably don't give a shit what I think. So for all our benefits I deleted my post.

Blogger Joshua Sinistar October 24, 2015 12:53 PM  

Travis you must be from some sort of strange alternate universe. Our media hates America, it blames White people for everything wrong with the world. Ordinary relationships between men and women are called cisnormal, patriarchy, oppressive of women, and of course racist, the catch all reason for every occasion. Just having a White partner is now called racist. Having White children is racist and oppressive. This is not subtle. The political views of books, magazines and other media produced today is unmistakable as Marxist. Not having one token of every race, gender identity and whatever other crazy pigeonhole that Leftists make up is considered to be close-minded or intolerant. All the bad guys are White males. Even movies about terrorists today are filled with neo-nazis! If you can't see it you must be brainwashed.

OpenID basementhomebrewer October 24, 2015 12:56 PM  

@ 6 Joshua Sinistar

Those of us who majored in one of the sciences know this to be the case. There are two very different types of college. One type is mainly about the social aspects of college (parties, sports etc.) The other type is actually learning something and learning how to think for yourself. In the universities that still have good science programs you mainly get type two with a little of type one sprinkled in when you somehow find free time. In the arts, even at the same university, you pretty much only get type one.

As a student in the sciences when I took an elective in the arts that actually studied the classics I got a lot out of it. The art majors pretty much did as you describe with cliff notes and downloaded essays.

Blogger Byron Grimes October 24, 2015 12:57 PM  

Travis, I believe you may not see the effects yet. It's not an outright teaching of hate, but of a love of the new and ignoring the past. Nearing forty, I see most of my peers in age as functionally illiterate (never for enjoyment, that is), and few of them explore older works in part because doing research is apparently hard.

That stated, I do not know you or your peers, and I hope that I am very much wrong, but many your age around me don't read outside of games.

Blogger Travis Landenwitsch October 24, 2015 1:03 PM  

Joshua Sinistar,

One of us is definitely from an alternate universe. I have never witnessed any white person, ever in any form, called racist and oppresive for having a white partner or white children.

Blogger Travis Landenwitsch October 24, 2015 1:08 PM  

Byron,

I can understand where you are coming from, and find a lot more sense in what you just wrote than what was copied here from Mr. Wright

Blogger bob k. mando October 24, 2015 1:16 PM  

holy crap.

a reality talking Democrat ... from Hawaii.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Q8X60KQ9Q

she's already calling Obama's actions in Syria "illegal". were she to take the next step and call it 'treason' ... nah, that'll never happen.

Blogger bob k. mando October 24, 2015 1:18 PM  

12. Travis Landenwitsch October 24, 2015 1:03 PM
I have never witnessed any white person, ever in any form, called racist and oppresive for having a white partner or white children.



for having a white partner? no.

we're called 'racist' BECAUSE we are white.

just as we are called 'sexist' BECAUSE we are men.

just as we are called 'homophobic' BECAUSE we are heterosexual.

Blogger JDC October 24, 2015 1:22 PM  

One of us is definitely from an alternate universe. I have never witnessed any white person, ever in any form, called racist and oppresive for having a white partner or white children.

Then I invite you to take almost any class on racism / class from any university in this country. The opening statement will be something like, "As a white person, you are automatically a racist and prejudiced because you have in some form benefited from the subjugation of minorities."

So you are a racist simply because of who you are.

Blogger Jay Lucas October 24, 2015 1:24 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Sensei October 24, 2015 1:26 PM  

while the elves of Selenoth are a blend of Tolkienian and Longaevian

I thought you struck a nice balance there, with the elves being an entirely tangible humanoid race who may find it expedient to fight alongside humans, yet retaining "that slight breath of hell," in various ways. (familiars, summoning, a sense of alien amorality, etc.) It made the story of Bessarias all the more interesting.

Blogger Koanic October 24, 2015 2:02 PM  

"Longaevian elves" what is that, cannot find author.

Blogger VD October 24, 2015 2:14 PM  

Try reading the linked article instead of searching Google.

Blogger Were-Puppy October 24, 2015 2:18 PM  

@8 Travis Landenwitsch
I realize you all probably don't give a shit what I think. So for all our benefits I deleted my post.
----

Please post. It's no fun when everyone agrees on the topics here.

Blogger Sensei October 24, 2015 2:25 PM  

"Longaevian elves" is a reference to the traditional or folk ideas about elves/fairies, being more supernatural and "unsafe" creatures that inhabit an unseen world that only sometimes overlaps with ours. (as opposed to Tolkienian elves which are presented as a physical humanoid race living on earth alongside men and dwarves and in fundamentally similar fashion)

Partial explanation or at least a good start here

Blogger JDC October 24, 2015 2:46 PM  

As I was reading the linked article, I was wondering what category Larry Correria's elves fall into. One would have to take the trailer park factor into account.

Blogger Josh October 24, 2015 2:47 PM  

As I was reading the linked article, I was wondering what category Larry Correria's elves fall into. One would have to take the trailer park factor into account.

The elves and the orcs are some of the most entertaining parts of his worldbuilding.

Blogger Joe Keenan October 24, 2015 2:53 PM  

Nice article! John C. Wright, is right!

Blogger newanubis October 24, 2015 3:04 PM  

Contmporarily being white is drawing some eerie similarities to Original Sin. Whereas the fall from grace demanded humility and a lifelong endeavor to get one's heart/spirit right, modern sin wants to get your badthink right--and pulls no punches.

The level of menace toward this goal is astounding. Virtually any institution and certainly any media meme generator are fraught with messages and dictates to believe as the group believes, or else.

For the record, I identify as Ming, ruler of the universe, and this self identity in 2015 is all that is needed to create reality.

Blogger newanubis October 24, 2015 3:05 PM  

Contmporarily being white is drawing some eerie similarities to Original Sin. Whereas the fall from grace demanded humility and a lifelong endeavor to get one's heart/spirit right, modern sin wants to get your badthink right--and pulls no punches.

The level of menace toward this goal is astounding. Virtually any institution and certainly any media meme generator are fraught with messages and dictates to believe as the group believes, or else.

For the record, I identify as Ming, ruler of the universe, and this self identity in 2015 is all that is needed to create reality.

OpenID Steve October 24, 2015 3:20 PM  

The reason leftists hate the past is that their ideas have been defeated over and over again. Aesop's tales defeat 1/2 of what progressives new things and he was a slave.

12. Travis Landenwitsch-I have never witnessed any white person, ever in any form, called racist and oppresive for having a white partner or white children

What a cuck, I have seen niglets telling white girls they are racist for not going out with them, & I have told them " once you go black you become a single mom". I have been called a bigot for not wanting to have sex with a guy I knew was HIV+. Here are articles about how non blacks are WWrraaacccciiiisssttt for not having sex with blacks.

http://www.queerty.com/has-grindr-turned-gay-men-into-racist-homophobic-body-facists-20111017 Homophobic gays who knew?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mathew-rodriguez/is-discrimination-on-grindr-killing-gay-sex_b_4558989.html Blame white men of course
http://www.terrylevine.com/2011/03/the-queer-case-of-racism-in-the-gay-community.html

"As a queer Latino gay man of size, logging on to Grindr is a casual masochistic reminder ..... unlimited access to the services and privileges they need, Grindr's 1 percent has the privilege of determining who has access to them and when and where they will get serviced. "
-translation-Fat balding 1/10 beaners don't get their fair share of young hot white guys.

"As a Jew living for the most part on the DL...Jews have little to complain about. Ask a black person.... They don't have the luxury to hide their inferiority the way sneaky Jews can." Rabbi B you should tell Terry Levine he should only date jews.
-BigGaySteve

OpenID Jack Amok October 24, 2015 3:22 PM  

The closing line of John C Wright's essay was brilliant. What Tolkien did not do, for it was not part of his purpose, was show what dangers look like when dangers are beautiful.

I think the most significant change is that modern SFF is feminized and so has a feminine concept of what is attractive.

The uncivilized female is attracted to danger and makes no apology for it. A necessary aspect of civilizing women is teaching them to resist the temptations of danger. But that's too patriarchal and limiting for feminists who rush headlong into squandering feminine power (i.e. beauty and birthing) in a quest for fleeting tingles. So they write stories where either Strong Women can give into the danger but beat it up and walk away to find the next tingle, or where Noble Women can tame the danger and make the evil they are tempted by into good.

Because female stories are not about resisting temptation, they're about picking which one to give into.

Blogger Travis Landenwitsch October 24, 2015 3:50 PM  

Steve,

I don't see how your experiences in the gay community have any bearing on my life. It is interesting though that you somehow believe being called a bigot by someone you refused to have sex with matters. Who gives a fuck what they think?

Blogger RobertT October 24, 2015 3:52 PM  

Whenever I've read something five or six hundred years old, I've gotten the impression that an ordinary person today would struggle with it. So I've always felt the human race is continually becoming less intelligent. Which is one of the concepts I remember from reading Narnia to my children, that everything is slowly degrading.

Blogger VD October 24, 2015 3:55 PM  

I don't see how your experiences in the gay community have any bearing on my life.

Homophobic bigot. You should be ashamed of yourself!

Blogger maniacprovost October 24, 2015 4:41 PM  

I realize you all probably don't give a shit what I think. So for all our benefits I deleted my post.

No one gives a shit what I think either, but unless your post was overtly idiotic that's no reason to delete it.

Blogger bw October 24, 2015 4:44 PM  

Indulgences!

Blogger kudzu bob October 24, 2015 4:54 PM  

@Travis Landenwitsch

You write this: I have never witnessed any white person, ever in any form, called racist and oppresive for having a white partner or white children.

And then you write this: I don't see how your experiences in the gay community have any bearing on my life.

See any any problem there? The reason nobody here gives a shit what you think is that you don't really think, you just imagine that you think.

OpenID Steve October 24, 2015 5:02 PM  

I don't see how your experiences in the gay community have any bearing on my life.

Those where white girls that STR8 male niglets called racist for not dating them.

Blogger bob k. mando October 24, 2015 5:08 PM  

30. Travis Landenwitsch October 24, 2015 3:50 PM
It is interesting though that you somehow believe being called a bigot by someone you refused to have sex with matters. Who gives a fuck what they think?



it doesn't matter, per se, except insofar as they try to get us fired, restrict our speech or ostracize us.

it amuses me that you are likely unaware that your statement applies to pretty much every conservative dealing with a progressive, ever.

Hitlery Clitton: "You're a bigot, because you won't do away with immigration laws!"

Heterosexual Patriacho-oppressive White male: "Shut up, you senile, dried up old cunt."

OpenID Steve October 24, 2015 5:32 PM  

It is interesting though that you somehow believe being called a bigot by someone you refused to have sex with matters.

If you cuck every time someone calls you a bad name that is where it will lead to. "Gee I guess I should have sex with this HIV+ guy because he called me a bad name" Here are people trashing eharmony for blond women not wanting to become single moms.

http://www.eharmony.com/dating-advice/dating/question-for-discussion-when-do-dating-preferences-become-racist/#.Viv1bv9dGUk

http://www.yelp.com/topic/oakland-eharmony-is-it-a-racist-homophobic-caterers-to-christians-and-people-with-a-upper-upper-middle-class-status-hmmm

http://healthland.time.com/2011/02/22/love-isnt-color-blind-white-online-daters-spurn-blacks/

""More than four of five whites contacted other whites while just 3% reached out to blacks...Blacks who said they were color-blind when it comes to Cupid where more likely to contact a white than to contact a black."

Blogger Wyrd October 24, 2015 5:47 PM  

BTW: Amazon just added pre-orders for several of Poul Anderson's fantasy and sci-fi novels not available before in Kindle format, Three Hearts And Three Lions included. I'm as happy as a little girl.

Blogger Sithicus October 24, 2015 6:07 PM  

The authors of my youth... H.P. Lovercraf, Karl May, Robert E Howard, Isaac Asimov, Robert A. Heinlein... and quite a few more.

Blogger Joshua Sinistar October 24, 2015 6:16 PM  

The only people who really read anymore are older people over 30. The young have been ruined by the garbage the media has put out. The most they've read is that execrable Harry Potter series when they were young. My God. What has the world come to?
Back in the day Charles Dickens was doggerel. He wrote serials for newspapers. That's why his stories are so God Damn long. He was paid by the chapter, so he made it as long as he could. Now he's freaking literature. Robert E. Howard was a pulp writer for dime novels. Now he's one of the best authors anyone actually knows or has read!
Progress. Straight down. My Mother told me I was wasting my youth reading comic books. Now they are multi-million dollar movie material.

Blogger Wyrd October 24, 2015 6:24 PM  

I'm sure there were once those who felt anyone who read papyrus scrolls instead of clay tablets were heathens.

Blogger DSW October 24, 2015 6:32 PM  

The SJWs demean old SF but that doesn't stop them from ripping it off like Scalzi did ripping off Heinlein's Starship Troopers when he wrote Old Man's War.

Blogger Joshua Sinistar October 24, 2015 6:40 PM  

These SJWs are completely insane. This gay Marriage thing has opened a Pandora's Box for every fruit and nut to come out to join the screwball brigade. Look at "Caitlyn" Jenner. WTF? And he's a Republican.
Like I said before they're trying to mainstream paedophilia now, right after they tried to get gay scoutmasters.
This Maniacal plunge into decadence and immorality is going FULL BABYLON!

Blogger bob k. mando October 24, 2015 6:48 PM  

44. Joshua Sinistar October 24, 2015 6:40 PM
Look at "Caitlyn" Jenner. WTF? And he's a Republican.



'Republican'? you mean like Dennis Hastert and Arnold Schwarzenegger?

a RINO.

Blogger Joshua Sinistar October 24, 2015 6:50 PM  

Actually at this point anything could happen because things have already happened that are crazy. What other kind of insane nut are the media going to bring out and celebrate? What if somebody thought they were a chicken? Would they celebrate that? What is the line in Vegas on chicken people?

Blogger Michael O'Duibhir October 24, 2015 6:51 PM  

"We are in the Dark Ages, and the darkness influences all things in society, including speculative literature. I mean the term not as an exaggeration or a metaphor..."

Which term--Dark Ages, darkness, or "speculative literature"--are we referring to here?

"[T]he technological products of our enlightened forefathers..."

That's unclear. Which "forefathers" are we speaking of?

Blogger Josh October 24, 2015 6:55 PM  

Back in the day Charles Dickens was doggerel. He wrote serials for newspapers. That's why his stories are so God Damn long. He was paid by the chapter, so he made it as long as he could. Now he's freaking literature.

But earlier you said:

Most of us enjoy reading because we read Mark Twain and Shakespeare, Dickens and others

Which is it?

Blogger Wyrd October 24, 2015 6:57 PM  

...and Arnold Schwarzenegger?

a RINO.


Thou shalt not blaspheme the name of Dutch.

Blogger Joshua Sinistar October 24, 2015 6:58 PM  

Actually that Dark ages thing is ironic because most of this crap started with the new Enlightenment. Then it became New Age. Self-Help turned into Self-Actualization. People tried to find themselves. They found their inner child. They lost Religion and became spiritual. Then everything turned gay, blood moons, new Cold War, cats and dogs living together...

OpenID tz October 24, 2015 7:10 PM  

Ayn Rand is a woman and atheist. Try to find even one reference among the leftist (il)literatti. Even STEM, SciFi, (New, trad, plussed or non-plussed) Atheists. Trad Catholics (Tom Woods, Lew Rockwell) honor her more.

Blogger Koanic October 24, 2015 7:23 PM  

Much of the old canon is buried in the uncanny valley between public domain and Amazon ebook. It appears that's my excuse. I'll give Appendix N a try. Sometimes the older stuff lacks the technical execution of later generations; they stand on the shoulders of giants.

Quite a disappointment re Longaevian... I was hoping for whole books of Vox style elves.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 24, 2015 7:42 PM  

Elves should certainly have menace as a character trait.

Blogger Cataline Sergius October 24, 2015 7:46 PM  

@45

Oh Bob, you missed the big picture completely.

Dennis Hastert and Arnold Schwarzenegger and Catelyn Jenner ARE the real Republicans.

We are the RINOs.

Blogger Were-Puppy October 24, 2015 7:50 PM  

@46 Joshua Sinistar
Actually at this point anything could happen because things have already happened that are crazy. What other kind of insane nut are the media going to bring out and celebrate? What if somebody thought they were a chicken? Would they celebrate that? What is the line in Vegas on chicken people?
---

Resists joke about choking them.

Blogger Were-Puppy October 24, 2015 7:52 PM  

@53 Mr.MantraMan
Elves should certainly have menace as a character trait.
---

I take it you do not approve of Snap, Crackle, Pop or the Keebler elves?

Blogger Keith Glass October 24, 2015 8:19 PM  

And yet some of us are into our THIRD copy of "The Past Through Tomorrow".

Blogger Dave October 24, 2015 8:23 PM  

That Crackle is menacing.

Blogger John Wright October 24, 2015 8:41 PM  

"Tolkien I am quit familiar with, and I have read Throne of Bones, but what books do Longaevian elves come from?"

In CS Lewis' useful handbook of the worldview of the middle ages, which contains what any student reading medieval literature should know, he coins the term 'longaevi' (the long lived ones) to describe the various supernatural or unnatural beings, elfs and trolls and sirens and so on, which where neither angels nor demons, and which did not quit fit into the Christian scheme of the world.

The medieval thinkers were more tidy and logical than modern thinkers and they were tidy enough to leave a space for the strange and chaotic things that did not quite fit into their scheme of the world. The Longaevi were those long-lived creatures, ageless but not deathless, who did not quite fit.

Blogger John Wright October 24, 2015 8:51 PM  

"For the record, I identify as Ming, ruler of the universe, and this self identity in 2015 is all that is needed to create reality."

Hail, Ming! Hail! Ruler of the Universe!

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJOmUW5QyqQ)

Dr Doom had his own country, but Ming had his own ever-lovin' PLANET, and Doom never forced Sue Storm into his harem in a slinky outfit. (Unless Doom is Rama Tut, in which case, he sort of did). So Ming is more badass than Dr Doom.

I am a 54 year old man. I have wasted my life with comics, and my brain is filled with litter and flotsom, yet I regret nothing! Nothing, I say!

Blogger Phillip George October 24, 2015 8:53 PM  

John Wright, thanks again, Don Rumsfeld's known unknowns. Barry Setterfield's genius I've only casually plumbed, but he's keen to point to the grand anomalies and quotes this on his home page:
Sir Henry Dale, one-time President of the Royal Society of London, made an important comment in his retirement speech: "Science should not tolerate any lapse of precision, or neglect any anomaly, but give Nature's answers to the world humbly and with courage."

Whether it's crop circles, apparent changes in fundamental physical constants [sic], ...............{insert your own}, crypto zoology, NDEs etc etc the world is an amazing place with many known unknowns to it, waiting for the honest enquirer. The dogma of the left if blinkered at best, myopic at worst. Vlad Putin, international man of the conservative year again, recently cited satan being given moral equivalence to God. The left can't deal with plain speak.

Blogger Harsh October 24, 2015 8:55 PM  

I realize you all probably don't give a shit what I think. So for all our benefits I deleted my post.

We don't and yet you continue to sperg here on a regular basis.

Blogger Harsh October 24, 2015 8:58 PM  

I am a 54 year old man. I have wasted my life with comics, and my brain is filled with litter and flotsom, yet I regret nothing! Nothing, I say!

But you, sir, are a true poet so all of that is forgiven.

Blogger Wyrd October 24, 2015 9:32 PM  

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not

perish, but have everlasting life. "The Saviour's words, when Nicodemus the Pharisee questioned him. Would He

have to argue if He hadn't cared? Easier just to say, "You know what miracles I've done already. Stop pestering

Me, fall down and worship, before I throw a lightning bolt." But He did His best to explain the mystery because

He wanted folk to come to Him of their free wills, not afraid of Him but seeking home to their Father.

"God loves us. Never forget that. I think He sends us fewer trials than we bring on our own foolish selves. Be

that as it may, hang fast to the knowledge of His care of you. No matter what happens, we are not forsaken.

Nobody is. Jesus could consort with publicans, sinners, and pagans. These days we have schismatics, heretics,

Jews, Turks, heathen, Venetians--and He loves them the same as He loves you. We stumbling mortals often see no

way out of having to fight; but must we hate?"

A sunbeam through one of the narrow, unglazed windows made the olde priest wipe his eyes as he went on:

"For God so loved the world..." I take that to mean every thing He ever made; and there's nothing He did not

make. If you need comfort, think of that. Think how the very dust under your feet is loved. We've seen Him give

souls to merfolk; He...He forgave a poor little shadow and raised her to Heaven; let us take courage from this."

"I've a notion He creates nothing in vain. That Satan himself, after Armageddon and what follows have shown him

the error of his ways, may repent and be shriven. That on the Last Day, not only will our dead be resurrected,

but all that ever was, ever lived, to the glory of God."

Father Tomislav was quiet for a space before he said, "Now don't you suppose that's necessarily the truth. I'm

sure of divine love, but the rest of what I spoke was only mind rambling. It's not in the canon. It could be

heresy."

Blogger Wyrd October 24, 2015 9:33 PM  

Man, this double-space sucks!

Blogger bob k. mando October 24, 2015 9:35 PM  

54. Cataline Sergius October 24, 2015 7:46 PM
Oh Bob, you missed the big picture completely.
Dennis Hastert and Arnold Schwarzenegger and Catelyn Jenner ARE the real Republicans.
We are the RINOs.




ow. ow, ow, ow. you give my head a hurty feeling.

https://gataplex.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/mindblown_st.gif



8. Travis Landenwitsch October 24, 2015 12:51 PM
I realize you all probably don't give a shit what I think. So for all our benefits I deleted my post.




liar.

if "don't give a shit what I think" was your criteria, you wouldn't post anything. but you do.

you deleted it ( probably ) because you realized that the post didn't even rise to your low standards of dialectic.

i mean, sheesh, just look at the drivel that you have left up for our edification in this thread.



60. John Wright October 24, 2015 8:51 PM
and my brain is filled with litter and flotsom, yet I regret nothing! Nothing, I say!



i regret the lock of spell check.

Blogger Ragin' Dave October 24, 2015 9:47 PM  

@31 - I've introduced my co-workers to the Federalist Papers. These are folks with fancy parchment on their walls, and they have to stop and take breaks so they can 1) translate some of the writing into modern vernacular and 2) try to absorb what they're reading.

And the Federalist Papers were a collection of NEWSPAPER ARTICLES when they first came out.

Blogger Dave October 24, 2015 9:48 PM  

@John Wright

Did you coin this word eunucherrifically that you use here "My point is that John Carter, Warlord of Mars, cannot be imagined as eunucherrifically passive as this Visitor"

I have a pretty good inkling from the usage but would like to hear your definition. I see other uses of cherrific online however no definitions. Cherry is the root?

Blogger Michael O'Duibhir October 24, 2015 10:08 PM  

@64:
"Jews, Turks, heathen, Venetians--and He loves them the same as He loves you."

Incorrect. God loves all of his creation but He most certainly does not love every created being equally. He created Lucifer, after all. Are you saying He loves Satan as much as, say, the Apostles? Remember, there is no "past" with God; everything is an eternal present with Him. So, all of His creation, including Lucifer the Prince of the angels, is eternally present with Him. He does not love Lucifer equally with someone who is struggling to do His will. We receive more of God's love the more we return to Him that which He has initially given to us. Jews hate God because they hate Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Divine Holy Trinity. The ancient Hebrews loved God as a monotheistic being because they had not received the new covenant as yet. With the coming of Christ, the old covenant was ended and the new one perfected and replaced it. That portion of the Hebrew people who accepted Christ and His covenant were saved. Those who did not--those who hated Him then and whose spiritual descendants hate him to this day--are lost. They go to Hell.

Blogger ray October 24, 2015 10:14 PM  

I'm afraid that Ming is found on the Writ of Protected Classes and it would be extremely offensive to orientals if you didn't obey him. In England they'd arrest you for that.

Some of you apparently never heard of railroads and coolies. Check your privilege.

Blogger JaimeInTexas October 24, 2015 10:15 PM  

Raging Dave

Next introduce your friends to the Anti-federalists.

Blogger kurt9 October 24, 2015 10:19 PM  

This is the first time I've ever heard anyone call Robert Heinlein a radical egalitarian. I've read his stuff and can tell you, he is no egalitarian. A common theme throughout most of his novels is that freedom and competence go hand in hand and that an ideal society is created by and for the competent. "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" is a novel I consider to be quite representative of his world-views.

Generally I agree with Heinlein's world-view. I found a "Lazarus Long" quote book while browsing in a used-book store and found that I agreed with nearly everyone of the quotes and with the implied world-view, in general. Heinlein was sexually a little "off", but I find very little objectionable about his world-view in general. I would characterize his world-view as competence-based conservatism/libertarianism. I don't know why Wright is bagging on Heinlein for, the latter certainly no egalitarian.

I think Heinlein would have agreed with the sentiment that equal men are not free and free men are not equal. Does that sound like a radical egalitarian to any of you?

OpenID RambleAround October 24, 2015 10:44 PM  

"We are in the Dark Ages"

Very interesting take...
Ho Lee Fuk, should we expect five hundred years of this shit?? Give me my horse so I can trample some motherfuckers

Blogger Eric October 24, 2015 10:48 PM  

Ayn Rand is a woman and atheist. Try to find even one reference among the leftist (il)literatti.

These are people who believe the state should be involved in every aspect of life, which to Rand was anathema. Eventually they'll rehabilitate the fascists, because fascism is the road they want to drag us down.

Blogger Eric October 24, 2015 10:52 PM  

Ayn Rand is a woman and atheist. Try to find even one reference among the leftist (il)literatti.

These are people who believe the state should be involved in every aspect of life, which to Rand was anathema. Eventually they'll rehabilitate the fascists, because fascism is the road they want to drag us down.

Blogger Groot October 24, 2015 11:06 PM  

I prefer the Elves of the Viva Las Vegas era (with Ann-Margret, even) to the era of the mutton chops and white suits.

Blogger bob k. mando October 24, 2015 11:18 PM  

72. kurt9 October 24, 2015 10:19 PM
Generally I agree with Heinlein's world-view.



Heinlein was originally a Socialist and campaigned for the election of Upton Sinclair.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein#California

his first novel, 'For Us, The Living' ( which was unpublished until 2003 ) extols the virtues of confiscating children from their parents so that the State may 'properly' inculcate the child into the acceptance of atheist humanism and public nudity.

i forget if he also introduces his normalization of polymorphous perversity here, as he does in his late works.

Heinlein's greatest evil always was the theocratic dictator, personified in Nehemiah Scudder ... who makes his first appearance in 'For Us...'

in spite of the fact that all of the great murderers of history were the Socialists/Communists of the 20th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_Us,_The_Living:_A_Comedy_of_Customs

72. kurt9 October 24, 2015 10:19 PM
I've read his stuff and can tell you, he is no egalitarian.
... that an ideal society is created by and for the competent.


yes, he certainly was a 'Rights' egalitarian, often showing women and minorities very favorably compared to the WASPs in his stories.

the fact that he recognized that different people have different competencies in no way contradicts this.

Blogger John Wright October 24, 2015 11:26 PM  

@ Dave

"Did you coin this word eunucherrifically"

Yes, with some help from my friend Humpty Dumpty, who tells me words mean whatever he says they mean.

It is a joke and a portmanteau word, meaning 'terrifically like unto a eunuch'.

Blogger John Wright October 24, 2015 11:40 PM  

@ Kurt9

"This is the first time I've ever heard anyone call Robert Heinlein a radical egalitarian. I've read his stuff and can tell you, he is no egalitarian."

My mistake: I did not mean he thought all men were of equal competence. Clearly he did not. But then again, normally the word 'egalitarian' does not take that meaning.

I mean he was a radical egalitarian when it came to laws and customs: he thought no customs were better than any others, ergo one should abide by the customs of one's hosts without demur. He says it several times in several places: I can find the quotes if you doubt me.

Second, when it comes to law, especially laws as related to relations between men and women, he was an egalitarian to a radical degree, that is, all the way to the root of the matter.

He wanted women to be as sexually liberated as men, and unchaste, and to use contraceptives, an idea that is now, by and large, the received wisdom of society, but it was revolutionary at the time.

In MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS, which depicts a libertarian colony where women are property owners and heads of households and fornicate like ermines in heat was a radically egalitarian society. There was no trace of class distinction, differences of rank, or any difference between male and female roles. Please correct me if I am wrong.

"I don't know why Wright is bagging on Heinlein for, the latter certainly no egalitarian."

You are reading something I did not say into my words. Bagging?

"I think Heinlein would have agreed with the sentiment that equal men are not free and free men are not equal."

I will make you a gentleman's wager, if you will be kind enough to accept it. Find me a quote in your notebook of Lazarus Long which supports that idea. Find me where Heinlein says some men deserve rights inferior to others, or that women should be more chaste than men, or anything else that is not egalitarian.

I think you are defining the word 'egalitarian' in the sense directly opposite mine. I mean he thought no one had the right to lord it over anyone else, that no one had any roles defined by nature, and that he carries this principle out to its logical extreme, and concluded that the habits and manners of men and women should be the same, not complimentary, but identical.

That is what I mean by egalitarian.

I do not mean the government equalizing incomes or some such nonsense as that. Heinlein was a live and let me the hell alone style libertarian, old-school libertarian. He thought government was a barely tolerable nuisance when it did its job and protected honest men from invasion: anything more than that was for the yammerheads.

Blogger Dave October 25, 2015 12:45 AM  

@JCW a portmanteau word

Now you sound like a newspaperman, betcha wrote headlines.too. I liked it but don't think it'll make the list on Wikipedia. Most on that list are obvious but a few I have to question: meld (melt and weld) not sure the Vulcans saw it that way.

Blogger ray October 25, 2015 2:05 AM  

'He wanted women to be as sexually liberated as men, and unchaste, and to use contraceptives, an idea that is now, by and large, the received wisdom of society, but it was revolutionary at the time.'


I don't receive these things as wisdom. No more than abortion.

Blogger Dave October 25, 2015 2:18 AM  

According to Pew Research the percentage of people (US) that read 11-50 books a year has remained around 23-29% since 1978. The general population are reading less books but the high volume readers could easily fit in some older texts but choose not to. JCW presents a compelling case of the Dark Ages / Progressive movement as a large factor in the generational barrier. But Isn't this barrier just more pronounced now due to the overwhelming options a reader has today. I think earlier generation's read more of the older volumes as their choices were limited.

Blogger Eric October 25, 2015 3:21 AM  

John Wright,

Bah! How could you link that 1980s trash. Better to watch the real thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngQG7lWWmBI

Blogger Mindstorm October 25, 2015 7:05 AM  

@39 Wyrd
Good going there. His elves were the unpredictable, amoral kind reminiscent of Nordic folklore.

OpenID savantissimo October 25, 2015 11:53 AM  

Wright considers the he question of fairy spiritual status and religion in his essay, a topic which is explored more fully in Dr. Beachcombing's What Religion did Fairies Follow?. The reply letters and their links are also worth reading. Beachcombing has several other edifying posts on fairy folklore, mostly from primary sources.

Blogger Travis Landenwitsch October 25, 2015 11:58 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger kurt9 October 25, 2015 12:56 PM  

I think you are defining the word 'egalitarian' in the sense directly opposite mine.

That's what I thought. We're talking apples and oranges. Your definition of egalitarianism is different than that of Heinlein and myself. Its one I am not familiar with and which sounds vaguely "feudalistic" to me.

When I hear the word "egalitarian" I think of socialism and wealth redistributionism and the like, which is probably how Heinlein would have defined egalitarianism. My quote that free men are not equal and that equal men are not free was a dig directly at the socialist concept of egalitarianism, not your definition. And yes, I think Heinlein would have agreed with it in this context.

Like Heinlein, I am a classic "leave me alone" libertarian.

Blogger kurt9 October 25, 2015 1:11 PM  

I mean he was a radical egalitarian when it came to laws and customs: he thought no customs were better than any others, ergo one should abide by the customs of one's hosts without demur.

Actually, I don't think Heinlein actually believed this, that all cultures were equal. Through out his writings (or at least the ones I've read) he clearly expressed a preference for a competence-based libertarian culture that placed an emphasis on the values of pioneering, work-ethic, productive accomplishment, and spirit of inquiry; all of which he considered to be the fundamental values that defined Western civilization. He clearly believed cultures based on these values were superior to all others (as do I) and the Lazarus Long quotes abundantly support this.

My guess is you're claiming he was an egalitarian because he believed that the only meaningful distinctions between individuals were based solely on competence and ability. If this is your definition of egalitarianism, I have no problem with it. There is nothing more I can say about it.

Blogger Wyrd October 25, 2015 2:10 PM  

@39 Wyrd
Good going there. His elves were the unpredictable, amoral kind reminiscent of Nordic folklore.


Anderson's my favorite fantasy writer in regards to Christianity. However, I like Gene Wofle's treatment in The Wizard Knight's books too.

Blogger Hammerli280 October 25, 2015 4:33 PM  

My experience with younger people is that they are ill-educated...but aware of the fact. They're willing to learn, given some direction.

Fantasy I'm not an expert in, but my top 5 introductory SF works would run a follows:

1. 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, by Jules Verne. It's the first real SF novel, and an excellent story.

2. Galactic Patrol, by E. E. Smith. It was a tossup between this and The Skylark of Space, but Galactic Patrol wins out due to scope.

3. Citizen of the Galaxy, by Robert Heinlein. Another tossup between this and Starship Troopers, but the latter is primarily a political treatise.

4. Dune, by Frank Herbert. Exceptionally skilled world-building, and he turns a whole shipload of SF tropes on their heads to do it.

5. The Mote in God's Eye, by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle. This is THE First Contact story.

Fantasy is harder. I'd probably put Lord of the Rings in the #1-3 slots. T.H. White's The Once and Future King in #4...and no idea what #5 is.

Blogger Hammerli280 October 25, 2015 4:39 PM  

@88 Kurt9:
I think you're right. Remember, Heinlein was a 1920s Naval Officer - which meant that he was far better traveled than most Americans even today. Most well-traveled people are inclined to give foreigners the benefit of the doubt...especially when abroad.

Blogger kurt9 October 25, 2015 9:14 PM  

Heinlein was not really a libertarian. His novel Starship Troopers, which was said to reflect many of the views he held at the time he wrote it, depicted a somewhat fascistic society. Other novels were more libertarian. However, the common theme that did hold true through all of his novels was the emphasis on competence, and how only a competent people could have freedom. This is why I refer to Heinlein's worldview as competence-oriented conservatism rather than libertarianism per se.

Second, when it comes to law, especially laws as related to relations between men and women, he was an egalitarian to a radical degree, that is, all the way to the root of the matter.

Its sounds like you are advocating different legal systems for different people. I've lived for a while in a country that actually does this. I lived in Malaysia. Perhaps you believe some variant of the Malaysian system should be implemented in the West. Perhaps you think Christians, Muslims, and whoever else should have their own legal systems. Would you have a problem with those of us who are into what some call "transhumanism" creating our own legal systems as well? The Malaysian system works fairly well, with some problem. I have no problem with implementing such a system here in the U.S., or in Europe.

Blogger bob k. mando October 25, 2015 10:15 PM  

87. kurt9 October 25, 2015 12:56 PM
Your definition of egalitarianism



how about we use some dictionary definitions instead of just making things up as we go?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/egalitarian

https://www.wordnik.com/words/egalitarian

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/egalitarianism/

Heinlein had no problem whatsoever with the idea of treating women / minorities as the legal and social equals of competent men.

iow, he meets the dictionary definition of an 'egalitarian'.



92. kurt9 October 25, 2015 9:14 PM
depicted a somewhat fascistic society.


not by any sane definition of "fascism".

do you, perchance, actually KNOW what fascism is?

as a hint, it's very closely related to National Socialism ...

or, you can get specific about WHAT in 'Starship Troopers' you think qualifies as 'fascistic'. that should be amusing.

Blogger John Wright October 25, 2015 11:00 PM  

@Eric
I linked to the 1980s version of Flash Gordon because in no other version is Ming referred to as ruler of the universe.
But my personal favorite version, the one I think closes to Alexander Raymond's original, is the Filmation version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIaeCw88M7s

With a perfectly cromulent version of beautiful but evil Princess Aura
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaCfIU2ym7o

And there are still animators hard at work today
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BChNOWus2-8

Blogger rycamor October 25, 2015 11:04 PM  

The 1980 Flash Gordon was possibly the most wonderfully cheesy sci-fi/action flick ever. It should not be forgotten.

Blogger John Wright October 25, 2015 11:09 PM  

"Heinlein was not really a libertarian. His novel Starship Troopers, which was said to reflect many of the views he held at the time he wrote it, depicted a somewhat fascistic society."

Good Lord, spare us, we pray, from the words of those who know not what normal words mean.

The society in STARSHIP TROOPERS had private property, respected the rights of man, and was in elected representative democracy, and differs from our own only in that one had to earn the franchise to vote through federal service, not merely by being born and learning how to throw a lever in a voting booth. The Romans had a similar customs of earning voting rights through service in the army, albeit in Heinlein's background he establishes that it can be more than just military service.

Fascism is the system of government that ignores individual rights, subordinates property rights and corporate direction to the state, places the whole society on a military footing, and subordinates the individual to the needs of the state. It is almost precisely the opposite of the federation in TROOPERS, and is, in fact, the system used by the bugs of Klendathu, their enemies.

Blogger John Wright October 25, 2015 11:18 PM  

"Its sounds like you are advocating different legal systems for different people."

Instead of pretending I said something I did not say, you could always ask me what I believe. Otherwise, you are arguing like a Leftist, who merely erects a strawman to thrash, and a character to assassinate.

I am a lawyer. I know what the damned word 'equality' means and, worse, I know how it can be abused by people who do not use it precisely or think logically.

Blogger Hammerli280 October 25, 2015 11:18 PM  

If anything, the Terran Federation represented the United States of Heinlein's childhood. Military service was expected of every able-bodied man at need. Heinlein simply formalized it.

Blogger Skylark Thibedeau October 26, 2015 12:48 AM  

Sounds like her confusing Heinlein's book with Paul Verhoven's abomination of it. Bet they never actually read it just saw the boobs. Like watching the Musical Version of Les Miserables and missing the great tapestry of Hugo's book.

Blogger Groot October 26, 2015 1:23 AM  

@79. John Wright:
"when it comes to law, especially laws as related to relations between men and women, he was an egalitarian to a radical degree, that is, all the way to the root of the matter.

I will make you a gentleman's wager, if you will be kind enough to accept it... Find me where Heinlein says... that women should be more chaste than men, or anything else that is not egalitarian."

Glory Road:
"Hold your tongue, you bad-tempered brat! You have not earned the right to speak to me that way. Nor will any girl ever earn the right. You will always -- always! -- address me politely and with respect. One more word of your nasty rudeness and I'll spank you until the tears fly."
"You wouldn't dare!"
"Get your hand away from that sword or I'll take it from you, down your pants right here on the road, and spank you with it. Till your arse is red and you beg for mercy. Star, I do not fight females -- but I do punish naughty children. Ladies I treat as ladies. Spoiled brats I treat as spoiled brats.
...
"At last she said in a small voice, 'I understand, milord.'"

Blogger The Overgrown Hobbit October 26, 2015 2:18 AM  

John Wright is correct: please follow the link and take his recommendation to read the article by M. Jeffro (http://jeffro.wordpress.com/2015/10/12/appendix-n-survey-complete/)

There is indeed a barrier of ignorance today that wards readers against the past. One that did not exist for writers and readers of Mr. Wright's or my generation.

Commentor number 89 wrote:

@JCW a portmanteau word

Now you sound like a newspaperman, betcha wrote headlines.too. I liked it but don't think it'll make the list on Wikipedia. Most on that list are obvious but a few I have to question: meld (melt and weld) not sure the Vulcans saw it that way.


Meld is a very old word. Its popularity in modern eras (IIRC it dates bac to the 300s as a declaration) comes from its use in canasta (I had to look that one up. We truly live in a golden age of information: the Oxford English dictionary is readily available to anyone anywhere near their public library. So much fun: but I digress) where it is a combination of cards.

Hence: mind melds.

The modern liberal is hopelessly parochial. In both space and time.

Blogger bob k. mando October 26, 2015 6:50 AM  

100. Groot October 26, 2015 1:23 AM
Spoiled brats I treat as spoiled brats.


and you think that Heinlein's attitude towards an obstreperous young male would be different ... how?

in, i think it's Farnham's Freehold, doesn't the father threaten to throw his own recalcitrant son out of the fallout shelter? iow, threaten to exile him to certain death?

in point of fact, Heinlein did recognize that SOCIALLY men and women were different and had different desires. this is why modern feminists hate him.

this does nothing to obviate his 'free love' advocacy for women nor his depictions of them as being fully equivalent to men in a LEGAL sense.



96. John Wright October 25, 2015 11:09 PM
Good Lord, spare us, we pray, from the words of those who know not what normal words mean.


i really wish you had let Kurt further demonstrate his ignorance.

there are plenty who fall for that bullshit 'Starship Troopers is fascist' line.

Blogger Cail Corishev October 26, 2015 8:52 AM  

Yeah, the director said the movie was intended as a cautionary satire of fascism, but he only succeeded in making it look awesome. Take a bunch of ridiculously good-looking people, put them in snazzy uniforms, and have them win a war against a bunch of rapacious monsters, with plenty of band-of-brothers camaraderie and some noble sacrifice along the way -- what's not to like? It's like a montage of all the best scenes from old war movies, plus boobs.

Not that it clearly shows fascism either. Militarism, yes, and a very strict legal system, but not fascism. It's implied that there's some sort of military-industrial-media complex running things, but what form it takes isn't shown. But like most people, he appears to use "fascism" to mean "a system of government that I think is too mean and wouldn't let me do something I want to do."

Blogger kurt9 October 26, 2015 1:44 PM  

"Its sounds like you are advocating different legal systems for different people."

Instead of pretending I said something I did not say, you could always ask me what I believe. Otherwise, you are arguing like a Leftist, who merely erects a strawman to thrash, and a character to assassinate.

I am a lawyer. I know what the damned word 'equality' means and, worse, I know how it can be abused by people who do not use it precisely or think logically.


The way I'm reading what you are saying sounds like you're suggesting that treating people equally under the law is "radical egalitarianism". If this is not true, perhaps you can clarify your position. You're being quite vague for someone with legal training.

Blogger kurt9 October 26, 2015 2:11 PM  

What Heinlein believed in is positively conservative compared to what have today. I guess that's why I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this description of him being a "radical egalitarian". I just don't see him that way. From the stuff I've read, his characters generally evaluated and dealt with each other on the basis of competence and ability, operating on the standpoint of rational self-interest. I fail to see anything objectionable with this. Calling this "radical egalitarianism" is downright weird to me.

Blogger Groot October 26, 2015 3:14 PM  

@102. bob k. mando:
"and you think that Heinlein's attitude towards an obstreperous young male would be different ... how?"

By taking down his pants and spanking him with a giant phallic symbol until he was bloody? Seriously, bob?

And whether you interpret it "SOCIALLY" or "in a LEGAL sense" (anybody ever tell you that you use way too many capital letters?), it is not an egalitarian system he propounds and fictionally enforces, complete with the violence inherent in the system. She is being suppressed. No watery tart gave Heinlein nothing.

Blogger Koanic October 26, 2015 3:42 PM  

Ahoy, here' s a very solid masculine fantasy book, combo of LitRPG and Iraq squad realism:

Dream by RW Krpoun

Maybe not great art, but definitely tasty dark masculine realism.

Blogger Koanic October 26, 2015 3:44 PM  

The finale actually frightened me. Can't remember a book that did that.

Blogger John Wright October 26, 2015 10:37 PM  

I guess that's why I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this description of him being a "radical egalitarian".

Fair enough. If I used the term 'Sexual Libertarian' instead, we would avoid these distracting connotations.

Suffragette is an egalitarian who seeks equal franchise rights between the sexes, but someone who wants to abolish modesty in custom and marriage in law altogether is a radical.

I used the term because I also wanted to point to his belief in the equality of cultures, which would now be called multiculturalism.

I hope no one who reads SPACE CADET, GLORY ROAD or STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND can legitimately think Heinlein thought it proper not to honor and obey barbaric customs, such as polygamy and cannibalism.

That he also, at the same time, thought some cultures were better than others is a paradox I am sure he was clever enough to reconcile: I am unaware of anything in his writing to hint that he ever had, however.

Blogger bob k. mando October 26, 2015 10:41 PM  

106. Groot October 26, 2015 3:14 PM
Seriously, bob?


perhaps you missed the sex neutral quote that i requoted for emphasis?

perhaps you missed the specific application of that quote to another Heinlein text (and i was correct, it is 'Farnham's...' ) in which i demonstrate Heinlein's egalitarian application of the principle quoted?

perhap trees don't read for comprehension?



106. Groot October 26, 2015 3:14 PM
And whether you interpret it "SOCIALLY" or "in a LEGAL sense" (anybody ever tell you that you use way too many capital letters?)



when i wish to improve my communication skills, the first person i'm going to ask for advice is the one who's not keeping up with my conversation.

Blogger Groot October 27, 2015 2:43 AM  

@110. bob k. mando:

Oh, you are a spunky minx. You can't go all Benny Hill, then walk it back by "requot[ing] for emphasis." You were thinking about spanking buns, you old prevert. Own it.

"when i wish to improve my communication skills" L̶i̶g̶h̶t̶e̶n̶ ̶u̶p̶,̶ ̶i̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶j̶o̶k̶e̶,̶ ̶b̶e̶c̶a̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶n̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶c̶a̶p̶i̶t̶a̶l̶ ̶l̶e̶t̶t̶e̶r̶s̶ Don't get all prissy on me, Princess! Don't gag on this, it's all good!

Blogger kurt9 October 27, 2015 1:06 PM  

Fair enough. If I used the term 'Sexual Libertarian' instead, we would avoid these distracting connotations.

I agree. Yeah, Heinlein was probably this. However, I never paid much attention to his sex stuff, as I generally do not pay much attention to sexuality in any fiction. It's a background thing that generally does not contribute much to the plot.

Suffragette is an egalitarian who seeks equal franchise rights between the sexes, but someone who wants to abolish modesty in custom and marriage in law altogether is a radical.

i agree with the first part. I'm not sure what you mean by the word "modesty".

I used the term because I also wanted to point to his belief in the equality of cultures, which would now be called multiculturalism.

By the standards of present-day multi-culturalism, Heinlein was certainly no multiculturalist. Of course present-day liberal-lefty types are loony-tunes by any historical or objective standards.

I honestly don't think Heinlein believed in equality of cultures. Most of his writings clearly show a preference for the cultural values of individualism, entrepreneurship and work ethic, spirit of inquiry, pioneering, and all that good stuff and the cultures that foster these values. Its fair to say these characteristics define Western civilization and are not widely shared by other cultures around the world. He also had a very strong belief that freedom and ignorance did not fit well together. In this sense, I don't see how Heinlein can be considered a multiculturalist. he clearly prefered Western cultural values to others.

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