Sunday, November 22, 2015

NFL Week 11

Vikings (7-2) vs Packers (6-3). Who expected THAT at the beginning of the year, or even after Week 1? This game could settle the NFC North, although the Vikes have a harder schedule going forward. I am dubious that an injured Rodgers behind a weak offensive line can keep the ferocious Vikings pass rush in check for long. Either way, it is the must-see game this week.

Also, perhaps the Packers fans can help me on this one. For years, even decades, I have heard the national media talk about the big Packers rivalry with the Bears. Recent case in point:
While the Packers' long historic feud with the Chicago Bears commands as much or more attention in Wisconsin's population centers (Milwaukee, Madison and Green Bay) as the team's rivalry with the Vikings, there's no team in Minnesota as reviled as the green and gold.
Now, I lived in Minnesota and so it's natural that the many Packers fans I met there - including my Packers-owning mother-in-law- consider the Vikings to be their primary rival. But the thing is, I have not met a single Packers fan who considers the Bears to be their primary rival anywhere in my entire life. I've met Packer Backers from Florida to Florence, Italy, and the moment they hear you have any connection to Minnesota, it's on.

And on the online sites like ProFootballTalk, the Packer Backers are always going after the Vikings and the Vikings fans. They never have much to say about the Bears, not even in the comments on an article about an upcoming Packers-Bears game.

So, what is the deal? Is this simply the national media assuming that the two old NFL franchises must be rivals while not paying any attention to the real deal? Are there really many Packers fans who wouldn't mind losing to the Vikings twice this season so long as they beat the Bears again?



Anonymous Dan4 November 22, 2015 12:06 PM  

In my experience it's idiots from Chicago that think there is a rivalry between them and the Packers. But they never seem to notice the Packers fans really don't care about the Bears, which I'm sure they would find inconceivable.

Blogger bob k. mando November 22, 2015 12:16 PM  

not being a Bears, Vikings or Packers fan, i'm not directly involved in all of this.

all i can say, from two years of contracting ( 2000-2001 ) in a Madison suburb is, the cheeseheads in the southern part of the state seem to pay a lot more attention to the Illinois rivals than to the Minnesnowta ones.

that they have to deal with FISH ( fucking Illinois shit heads, a long way round of saying "Chicagoans", because rural Illinoians really aren't all that different from your average cheesehead. although cheeseheads are friendlier and have a better accent ) all the time, likely has a lot to do with that.

but by FAR the majority of Wisconsin population is Madison/Milwaukee and south, even if the much greater area is north of that line.

this is not to say that there's not a great deal of antipathy for Vikes.

cheeseheads are primarily German / Swedish, and as we all learned in our Aryan history classes, they've got plenty of race hate to spread around.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 22, 2015 12:17 PM  

Life long Packer backer from 1972 (first season I can fully remember) and Chicago AREA resident, and yes we hate the Bears, primarily the fans cause this.

But yeah you make a good point on the Vikes rivalry, even during the 90s Favre era the Vikes had their number and on into the early 00s as well. I was damn happy that the Pack beat the Vikes on 9-10-01, it was quite the deal at the time, but of course that was quickly overshadowed the next day.

Blogger bob k. mando November 22, 2015 12:20 PM  

3. Mr.MantraMan November 22, 2015 12:17 PM
and yes we hate the Bears, primarily the fans cause this.

another way of saying 'FISH'.

Anonymous O.C. November 22, 2015 12:43 PM  

It's regional. Back in the Bart Starr / Vince Lombardi days they often played Packers-Bears games in Milwaukee County Stadium. The antipathy between southeastern Wisconsin and Chicago is very old and very bitter, and extends far beyond mere football. The people of southeastern Wisconsin genuinely hate and fear anything out of Chicago.

As for the Viqueens: you know how it is when you run into someone who believes that *he* is your greatest rival, when to you, he's just a bump in the road to be stomped flat while you're on the way to somewhere more interesting? Yeah, that's how Packers fans view the Viqueens.

Anonymous O.C. November 22, 2015 12:46 PM  

So we trash-talk the Viqueens, because we don't take them seriously. Hey, Vox! How many LOMBARDI TROPHIES do your beloved Viqueens have?!

We take the Bears too seriously to taunt them.

Blogger VD November 22, 2015 12:48 PM  

Yeah, that's how Packers fans view the Viqueens.

I don't buy it. It sounds like meta-taunting to me. And you didn't answer the question. Would you rather lose twice to the Bears or to the Vikings?

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 22, 2015 12:54 PM  

Bob we called them FIBs, well technically I am a FIB but I side with those north of the Cheese Wall. I am a traitor, but my god are Chicagoans a special breed of stoopid and arrogant. I remember a New Orleans bartender telling me that the Chicago fans were the absolute worst dreck that ever landed in NOLA.

Anyway the Pack is going to get crushed and curb stomped today, they cannot execute their offense and because of circumstances McCarthy cannot change it so we will see Rogers running for his life.

I call for a play action pass out of a full backfield formation as the first play, but I will bet good money the first play is a single back run up the middle for a loss of two, and then it goes down hill from there.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 22, 2015 12:56 PM  

As for the poll question a 2-14 win loss record as long as the two victories are against the Bears.

Anonymous O.C. November 22, 2015 1:02 PM  

I'm trying to remember a season when the Packers lost twice to the Viqueens. I'm sure there's been one -- probably far more than one -- but I don't remember it.

Divisional rivalries are all well and good, but in the end, what matters is the playoff picture, and that changes every year. So yes, *this year,* I'd rather have the Packers beat the Vikings twice, because the Bears are a long shot for post-season. But in some hypothetical year in which the Vikings and the Bears fielded equally good teams and were equal threats to the Packers' post-season hopes, then yes, I'd take two losses to the Vikings in exchange for beating the Bears like baby seals.

I note that Minnesota Wild fans are finally beginning to appreciate that the Chicago Blackhawks are to be hated and feared.

Blogger Dave November 22, 2015 1:14 PM  

I think the Pack need this game more right now than the Vikings just for their psyche. And they do have another matchup.

Blogger ajw308 (#98) November 22, 2015 1:16 PM  

Chicago is like the Steelers, I'm rooting for them unless they're playing The Pack. The Vikings, they're purple & trip on their dicks, but that doesn't plain the dislike I have for them.

Blogger Dave November 22, 2015 1:18 PM  

Of course Sanchise leads the Eagles down the field on the first possession. Now what's the over/under on how many turnovers he has the rest of the game? 2.5

Anonymous O.C. November 22, 2015 1:19 PM  

That said, I think yours and Mr.MantraMan's assessments are essentially correct. This game comes down to whose injured body part is going to crap-out first: Adrian Peterson's hamstring or Aaron Rodgers' right shoulder. I will continue to hope for a Packer's win today, but wouldn't bet cash money on it.

Blogger ajw308 (#98) November 22, 2015 1:24 PM  

After last week, it may be safe to assume that Packet fans are PDDSD (Post Defeat by Detroit Stress Disorder)

Blogger Dad29 November 22, 2015 1:34 PM  

I vote with the FIB/FISH commenters.

Anonymous Paul November 22, 2015 1:40 PM  

Its more of a vestigial historical artifact at this point. Chicago and Green bay were original franchises and so have a long history of playing against each other. The rivalry peaked in the Forest Gregg era when the teams seemed to ignore the actual game and just wailed on each other. However, since then Chicago has been so bad that the rivalry has lost it's punch. It's hard to hate a team that never wins, at some point you feel bad to keep kicking someone who can never retaliate. The Vikings replaced Chicago as our true rival during the Favre years when we could never win in Minnesota. And it hit its emotional peak with T.J. Rubley (sp) as any true Packer fan can attest.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 22, 2015 1:41 PM  

OC go back to the Randy Moss era, that is off the top of my head so don't bet the house on my recollection. As a Pack fan I still see Moss pumping his hand up in the air to let the QB know he has his man beat. The only thing Ray Rhodes did as a coach was one game plan was to hit Moss as soon as he stepped out of the tunnel and keep hitting him till he got back on the bus to the airport, that was how you play Moss especially in his prime.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 22, 2015 1:45 PM  

But on the other hand the Packer Hall of Fame will have two Bears in it if I have my way, coach Dave Wannstedt and QB Jay Cutler.

Anonymous NateM November 22, 2015 1:45 PM  

Rivalry or No, I'm sure you're hoping Ditka Curse continues

Blogger Big Bob November 22, 2015 2:15 PM  

My buddy's wife grew up in northern Illinois and is a life long Packers fan. When we were discussing the loss to the Lions this week she said the only thing worse than losing to the Lions is losing to the Bears. From this I surmise that the location of the Packers fan does affect which team is considered a primary rival.

Blogger Caleb November 22, 2015 2:17 PM  

Viking fans can take a joke while Bear fans can't. When the Packers play the Vikings it's like playing your brother in a game of one on one. It's competitive and intense but you share a similar turf and mindset. Playing the Bears is like playing some entitled punk who lives down the street.

Anonymous Roundtine November 22, 2015 2:17 PM  

Where does this fall on the fan hate scale? Boston fans are almost as happy/sad when the Yankees lose/win as when the Sox wins/loses. It doesn't matter the context, the Yankess could be 50 games out of first or fighting for the pennants, Sox fans will be happy see a Yankee loss.

Anonymous O.C. November 22, 2015 2:30 PM  

I think Caleb nailed it. You can trash-talk a Vikings fan and they'll just trash-talk you right back. A Bears or Cubs fan will get pissed-off, go out to the parking lot, and slash your tires.

Chicago Rules, doncha know.

Blogger Gapeseed November 22, 2015 2:39 PM  

There is a whiff of smug elitism among Giants fans that drives some Jets fans to root against the Giants, even when facing the Patriots. But mostly, the Giants have functioned as a big brother, knocking the hated Patriots off twice in the Super Bowl. As a result, most Jets fans swallow their pride and root for Eli and company, even when it serves to reinforce our second-class citizen status and even when Giants fans don't reciprocate the love.

Blogger unclesol November 22, 2015 2:46 PM  

Lions fan here. What's a rivalry?

Blogger bob k. mando November 22, 2015 2:56 PM  

10. O.C. November 22, 2015 1:02 PM
I'm trying to remember a season when the Packers lost twice to the Viqueens. I'm sure there's been one -- probably far more than one -- but I don't remember it.

1968 and 69, 71, 73, 75, 76, 77, 86, 92, 93, 98, 2005, 09.

am i heppin?

damn, boy. i was just figuring you had put the 1970s down the memory hole, what with how hard the Pack sucked back then. but you forgot 2009?

we need to get you Pack fans into a recovered memory therapy session to help you deal with all this repressed trauma.

Anonymous Supernaut November 22, 2015 3:22 PM  

Nice rundown, bob.

2004/2005 was a special season, not only did the Vikings beat the Packers twice in the regular season, they also met for the first time in the playoffs, and the Viking's delivered an ass whipping to the Pack at Lambeau, 31-17.

It was the infamous Moon Over Lambeau game, where Randy Moss pantomimed mooning the cheeseheads after scoring a TD, and Joe Buck almost had an apoplectic stroke.

To this day, it is one my most fondest memory a Viking's fan.


Blogger bob k. mando November 22, 2015 3:27 PM  

26. unclesol November 22, 2015 2:46 PM
Lions fan here. What's a rivalry?

Redskins fan here. if you played football in Detroit we'd bother trying to explain it to you.

Blogger So Meh November 22, 2015 3:46 PM  

video below WWF NFL Style and why Bears fans always love to beat the Packers. Why its mentioned before its north vs. south Milwaukee vs. Chicago. the farther you go west of Madison, WI interest in Vikings increased and rivalry Viking becomes more of interest.

Anonymous Godfrey November 22, 2015 4:10 PM  

The Packer/Bears rivalry dates to the 1920's of the last century. The Vikings were an expansion team which didn't begin play until 1961. The Packer/Vikings rivalry really didn't heat up until the 1990's? Maybe 1980's? The Vikings dominated, and I mean dominated, the old NFC Central division in the 1970's. The Packers were horrible during that decade. So it's simply a generational thing. That's my theory.

PS The "Ditka Curse" guarantees a Viking victory today.

Anonymous Godfrey November 22, 2015 4:12 PM  


Awesome win last weekend. Always love to see the Lions win on the road over the Pack.

Blogger Dave November 22, 2015 4:27 PM  

Always love to see the Lions win on the road over the Pack.

Strange statement seeing as the Lions had lost on the road to the Pack the last 24 years.

Anonymous WaterBoy November 22, 2015 4:40 PM  

unclesol @ 26: "Lions fan here. What's a rivalry?"

Think Michigan/Ohio State, only during this century.

Anonymous WillBest November 22, 2015 4:46 PM  

@31 you missed the new McDonald's commercial. Ditka donned the Bears sweater while tossing the Packers sweater off the balcony. The curse has been lifted.

The problem with the Bears-Packer rivalry is that its been pretty one-sided the last 20 odd years. And Bears fans tend to hate the Packers with much more zeal than reverse as a result.

Anonymous willbest November 22, 2015 4:47 PM  

Love the squirrel on the field.

Anonymous LL #0002 November 22, 2015 4:59 PM  

I live in south central WI. Packer fans here hate the Bears way more than they hate the Vikings. A burning passion hated. Vikings & Lions are next on the hate-scale

Anonymous Godfrey November 22, 2015 5:00 PM  


I happen to be more than a little past 24 years of age. But your point is still valid. A Lions road win over GB doesn't happen very often. My favorite Detroit Lions moment is Thanksgiving Day 1962. I was too young to watch the game, but I read about it.

Blogger ray November 22, 2015 5:29 PM  

During the niner game today the announcer informed us that 'Lucifer is coming in January to FOX'. They'd just shown a promo for their hip, cool, edgy new Law Enforcement series.

Yes Lucifer is a 'bad guy' but see! he's actually he's just defending the American Way. Yes he takes the law into his own hands, but it's only in protection of the gynarchy and its Black Friday Sales. lol

Heck Lucifer came to FOX, and to America, a long time ago.

Blogger Cail Corishev November 22, 2015 5:47 PM  

During the niner game today the announcer informed us that 'Lucifer is coming in January to FOX'.

I guess they've gotten bored with convincing people he doesn't exist and moved on to convincing people he's a cool guy.

Blogger William November 22, 2015 6:53 PM  

Currently living in Milwaukee area, but originally from Chippewa. Growing up during the Bud Grant era, I was one of the few Viking fans in my neighborhood. I liked the Packers, but we lived in the Minneapolis market before the advent of cable, so I didn't see the Packers much. Oh, we could listen on AM radio, but we didn't. Then came cable, the Vikes turned into the viqueens because of a dome. Sacrilege! Go Pack! Don't like the Bears, but hey, the play outside, as it should be..

Anonymous Anonymous November 22, 2015 7:02 PM  

Three words: "Buccaneers" "playoff" "picture".

Blogger Somboed November 22, 2015 7:24 PM  

Lifelong Packer fan, growing up 40 miles south of GB and witnessed the entire Lombardi era, the 70's-80's Dark Ages, and the turnaround with the passing of the QB baton from Majkowski to Favre.

In the 60's through 80's, it was always the Bears. They were the Big Brother to the south, and they had Ditka. There was a hatred, but always a grudging respect for Da Bears.

Pack beat them like a drum when Favre was around, and that coincided with the Moss ass-wiping in the end zone. That seemed to be a turning point, like the Vikes were this ill-mannered mob trying to be relevant among the "good guys".

While there is a deep satisfaction in always beating the Bears and Vikes both, Packer fans don't respect Viking players, fans, or franchise.

Blogger Dave November 22, 2015 7:39 PM  

Ok Packers fans the subject of Moss' mooning act has been mentioned multiple times. He claimed it was in response to Packer fans that would moon the Vikings team bus as it left town. What say you?

Blogger dr_doug November 22, 2015 7:42 PM  

VD: "I am dubious that an injured Rodgers behind a weak offensive line can keep the ferocious Vikings pass rush in check for long. Either way, it is the must-see game this week."

Definitely a must-see game. But Rodgers looked pretty vintage today. And his offensive line looked good today. And the Packers defense looked good today.


Blogger VD November 22, 2015 7:45 PM  

The Packers would have looked considerably less good if the Vikings hadn't repeatedly gifted them first downs via penalty on third-and-long. Newman was horrific on both the pass interference and the touchdown, when he simply stopped covering Jones in the end zone.

And that was the worst game Norv Turner has called in a long time. I was calling for play-action on first down a full quarter before he finally tried it and it worked.

But I still feel pretty confident about taking the division after that. With a more even distribution of mistakes and penalties, the Vikes were the better team.

Anonymous Godfrey November 22, 2015 7:46 PM  


I was a Vikings fan too until the A-Dome-ination. I still get upset when I think back to that Roger Staubach '75 "Hail Mary" to pass to Pearson. There should have been a flag on Pearson for offensive pass interference. He pushed the defender.

Blogger Dave November 22, 2015 7:53 PM  

When the QB averages one TD pass per game it will be damn tough to beat the better NFC teams which are the Pack, Carolina and Arizona. If they don't win the division they're still in great shape for a wild card especially with all the dreck in the NFC. Can they beat those top tier teams in the playoffs. Will be fun to find out.

Anonymous WillBest November 22, 2015 8:28 PM  

Pretty sure one of the WC in the NFC is going to go to a 9-7 team at this point, and the NFCE might very well be an 8 win team. But yeah lets increase it to 7 per conference.

Its going to be Cards or Panthers vs Pats, and the Pats will repeat as long as Gronk and Brady are healthy.

Blogger Somboed November 22, 2015 8:28 PM  

@44. Packers mooning Vikes bus is done in the confines of a parking lot, not wiping your ass on opponent's goal post on national TV.

The former is a private prank amongst hostile relatives; the latter is crass public airing of dirty laundry.

Anonymous O.C. November 22, 2015 8:40 PM  

Well, that's over. I wouldn't say the Packers won so much as the Vikings lost. Usually the Vikes wait until the last five minutes to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, but this time, it was as if they gave up after they realized that #28's evil twin, Butterfingers Peterson, was the one who'd suited up for today's game. Couple that with a couple of really stupid and unnecessary defensive penalties that kept the Packers' drives alive when they should have gone three and out, and the Vikings just plain blew it.

I sure hope they come up with a better offensive line strategy before the next game. I was really afraid someone was going to break Bridgewater.

Blogger JaimeInTexas November 22, 2015 9:42 PM  

Were there other games today?

Blogger jon spencer November 22, 2015 11:21 PM  

There are teams that you want to beat (Bears) and there are teams (Vikings) that you want to beat so decisively that the lose their fan base, are forced to move to another city / country before going bankrupt.

Blogger bob k. mando November 22, 2015 11:31 PM  

39. ray November 22, 2015 5:29 PM
'Lucifer is coming in January to FOX'. They'd just shown a promo for their hip, cool, edgy new Law Enforcement series.

loosely based on the Gaiman / Carey comic book creation of some years back.

VERY loosely. i don't remember anything in the comics about Lucifer getting so bored he was moonlighting as a detective. managing Lux, sure, that's canon.

i'm assuming they've decided to drop the DC universe supers and substitute the LAPD for them. non-comics nerds would probably be too baffled by having Superman / Batman / et al running into Lucifer.

i see they've changed Mazikeen's name to Maze. i wonder what they've done about her face?

Blogger ray November 23, 2015 4:22 AM  

"I guess they've gotten bored with convincing people he doesn't exist and moved on to convincing people he's a cool guy."

That's what they thought at the Bataclan, too. Figured to kiss him.

Maybe Lucifer coming to FOX in January is the Next Stage after Kitty Jenner? The Androgynous One meets the Feral Feminine? It's a Grudge Match and they're a tag-team! :O)

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 23, 2015 7:51 AM  

Viking Wine, the finest vintage made from the sourest grapes available in the Upper Midwest.

The Packers actually ran the ball and Rogers broke containment enough to actually complete some passes. And the D showed up enough to make AP look human and to put BW on his back for 6 sacks.

Blogger Azimus November 23, 2015 11:12 AM  

I live in Wisconsin mid-way between Green Bay and Milwaukee. I agree with the statements that Milwaukee has a bitter rivalry with Chicago that is deeper than mere sports (see Milwaukee Deep Tunnel history for one example), but possibly most easily noticed in sports, particularly when the Packers used to play 2 games a year at County Stadium. Its worth saying the most hated professional sports team in Milwaukee for decades was the Chicago White Sox, so this is more of a city rivalry than a sport rivalry.

Where I am though, the "rivalry" between the Bears and Packers is less personal, so it only flares up when the Bears manage to be competitive - mostly people here have a mild contempt for the Bears, like watching a punk kid brother get his ass kicked when he talked too much trash. You don't really revel in his defeat because you know it was going to happen, but it brings you a little smile and you hope he learns his lesson for next time.

It is well remembered here that George Halas had a big part in ensuring the NFL stayed in the little paper town of Green Bay, and I think that stays a lot of the Bear-hating vitriol you would otherwise see.

As for the Vikings, I would say that is more of a classic rivalry. The Vikes were so dominant for so long early on that you build a lot of resentment East of the Mississippi. Personally the Randy Moss/John Randle era birthed the rivalry in me and I rejoiced to the heavens when the Giants mopped the floor with them in the 98 season NFC Championship game (seems to me there's still an untold story there). In conclusion I would say that the Vikings are the Packers main rival.

Blogger CarpeOro November 23, 2015 11:38 AM  

Being a Lions fan in Chicago exile, from my experience the reason for the talk of the Packers-Bears rivalry is simple. It is because there are so many Packers fans in Chicago. Naturally Bear's fans look at them as the rivals.

Anonymous GGhreg November 24, 2015 1:44 PM  

As with anything else, its the power dynamics that matters. The Bears have been garbage for a long time now, so long that the Packers fans have now stopped seeing them as a real threat. Meanwhile the Vikings are becoming a upper-mid range competitor with an improving Bridgewater/Rudolph combo, and Peterson returning to his old form. Game recognize game.

But, and this is the significant thing, Chicagoland is still a more important market than Minnesota, so the broadcast narrative is going to naturally overemphasize the Bears/Packers matchup because they have an incentive to do so.

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