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Sunday, February 28, 2016

American or Ameriboo?

Sarah Hoyt insists that she was "born American" in Portugal, to Portuguese parents:
I was born American. Yes, I was born in another country of foreign parents who would no more become American than fly unassisted, (and who desire it less than they wish to have have their heads shaved by a warthog) but I figure that was an accident of circumstance.  What really matters is that I was an American in my heart.  I just had to get here and become one in truth. (And that, by itself, is an American attitude.)

This week while talking to a friend about his foreign SO, I found myself explaining that other people, in other countries, have a hierarchy in their heads all the time — who is powerful, who isn’t, what attitude is proper.  You can find it (if you know where to look) even when reading British novels.

We’re not like that.  Whether we were born elsewhere or here, Americans — those of us who are proud of the name —  are rebels, revolutionaries, something new under the sun: a people who believe people should be equal in their right to life, the right to liberty, the right to pursue their happiness undisturbed by either inimical neighbors or oppressive “betters.”
It's a bit ironic, in that the ideas she is using to justify her "born American" claim were initially put forth by four not-exactly-American individuals, one a French tourist, one a French immigrant, one a Russian Jew living in Britain, and one a Jew of Portuguese descent born in New York City.

Not a single one of whom belonged to the American posterity for whom the blessings of liberty were intended, according to the Preamble to the Constitution.

It's telling, is it not, how all of these foreigners and immigrants just happened to produce a new definition of American that included them, a definition that was not held by the Founding Fathers. Nor is it a coincidence that this self-serving definition was subsequently used to justify the largest invasion to have ever taken place in human history, an invasion that has severely weakened the once-mighty American nation.

My fellow Native American, John Red Eagle, and I addressed this very point in our book Cuckservative:

America is not a propositional nation, it is a distinct nation of people with their own customs, traditions, DNA, and culture, and it is a nation that has the right to defend its own existence. 

The Founding Fathers were clear on the issue:

All persons born in the British American Colonies are, by the laws of God and nature and by the common law of England, exclusive of all charters from the Crown, well entitled, and by acts of the British Parliament are declared to be entitled, to all the natural, essential, inherent, and inseparable rights, liberties, and privileges of subjects born in Great Britain or within the realm.
 - Samuel Adams

"Although as to other foreigners it is thought better to discourage their settling together in large masses, wherein, as in our German settlements, they preserve for a long time their own languages, habits, and principles of government, and that they should distribute themselves sparsely among the natives for quicker amalgamation, yet English emigrants are without this inconvenience."
 - Thomas Jefferson

The opinion advanced is undoubtedly correct, that foreigners will generally be apt to bring with them attachments to the persons they have left behind; to the country of their nativity, and to its particular customs and manners. They will also entertain opinions on government congenial with those under which they have lived; or, if they should be led hither from a preference to ours, how extremely unlikely is it that they will bring with them that temperate love of liberty, so essential to real republicanism? 
- Alexander Hamilton

Why should the Palatine Boors be suffered to swarm into our settlements, and by herding together establish their languages and manners to the exclusion of ours? Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our language or customs, any more than they can acquire our complexion?
- Ben Franklin

One cannot no more become an American by virtue of one's thoughts or feelings about revolution or equality than one can become Australian, Canadian, or any other nation of English descent. That's why, unlike Irish-Americans, Swedish-Americans, and Italian-Americans, there are no hybrid "English-Americans". Like it or not, the fact is that they are the American nation and the posterity of the Constitution.

The Japanese have a word for a foreigner who is so enamored of Japanese concepts and culture that they come to identify with it. We had a few in my class in Tokyo; they would wear their yukatas and religiously perform tea ceremonies every day. Sarah could be reasonably described as an American weebo.

The fact that America is a nation weakened and watered-down by mass immigration and over a century of intermingling with other nations does not change the fact of its historical existence. Many of its predecessor nations are now gone, lost forever to history, but that does not mean that they never existed in the first place.

The ironic thing about all this is that Sarah has repeatedly insisted that I "don't get Europe" despite having lived in a European country for nearly two decades and most of my adult life. And perhaps she is right. Every European country I have visited has customs that occasionally strike me as certifiably insane. But what is also true is that she doesn't know what America is, she is no more properly "American" than a Spanish-speaking Peruvian who has lived his entire life in Iquitos, and she certainly wasn't born American in any sense of the term.

She is, without question, what might be called USian. But it is increasingly apparent that there is a large and growing gap between the USian transnationalists and the American nationalists, a gap that history strongly suggests will lead to either secession or civil war.

Moreover, in order to claim that she is American while simultaneously denying that I am Italian, she must deny that America is - or increasingly, was - a distinct nation of people with their own customs, traditions, DNA, and culture. And is that something that anyone who loves the American nation and is truly part of it would do?

Marco Rubio and Rupert Murdoch claim to be Americans too. But their actions observably belie their claims. What Sarah is pushing is a bizzare form of replacement theology, where right-thinking New Americans are grafted on to replace those pesky Old Americans whose blood and traditions and Constitution are no longer deemed necessary to the replacement nation.

Sarah writes: "We are a radical experiment, a nation not of blood and genes, but a nation of heart, of mind, of belief."

Perhaps. But that is not America. That is the alien collective which is in the process of devouring the genuine American nation, staking claim to its property, and assuming its identity.

UPDATE: It is hilarious to see the commenters over there posturing, assuring Sarah she as American as they are, and asking "do you even history" while producing howlers like this:
The big difference you are missing – whether deliberately or not – is that the United States is not one of those nations formed by forcing other countries together into a whole.
In addition to eliminating hundreds of Indian nations (which is handwaved aside because Cherokee), there is the very slight matter of THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR which ended the voluntary union of sovereign countries and established the modern USian empire.

Like every other multi-ethnic empire in history, the USA is held together by force and nothing more than force. And it won't hold together much longer, in part because there are now more Ameriboos than Americans residing in it.

UPDATE 2: See, they're all about freedom of speech because they are totally real Americans. A white knight nobly riding to Sarah's rescue - as if she can't defend herself - tweeted both of us this:
Vox Day is a fucking fascist... I will punch the guy in his nazi face if I ever find him!
It's funny to think how many people have said something like that. Yet for some reason, in person everyone tends to back down. I wonder if 29 years of weightlifting might have anything to do with that?

Labels: ,

255 Comments:

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Anonymous jOHN MOSBY February 28, 2016 10:05 PM  

"the second and later generations do not speak Spanish and do not listen to ethnic media, much to the frustration of Univision."
Full . of. Crap. That's what buwaya means in English.

Anonymous LastRedoubt February 28, 2016 11:21 PM  

Read them again. You're wrong. They anticipated a degree of immigration, yes. But a small amount that would be diluted by the native population. And they knew damn well that the other Europeans, forget Asians and Africans, could not assimilate their English ideology en masse.

Even in a relative trickle.

I'm disappointed for one at the number of other Lithuanian-descended people I know, some even in my family, who are socialists and democrats, as if the lessons of Lenin and Stalin meant jack shit, and the lessons of America, even as warped to the left as they have been for decades, only "took" where they overlapped with old-world collectivism.

I'm even mode disappointed at all of those who's families trace back here generations, and they buy into the same crap. I guess they at least have the excuse that they didn't grow up with the living memory of gulags within their family.

Blogger buwaya puti February 28, 2016 11:27 PM  

Um, I have current experience in California High Schools. The number of "Hispanic" kids that don't speak Spanish will surprise you. Almost all the second generation.
I report from the front lines of the immigration controversy, or behind enemy lines. One would think your lot, being as this is a pressing issue, would appreciate this information.

Blogger buwaya puti February 28, 2016 11:28 PM  

Um, I have current experience in California High Schools. The number of "Hispanic" kids that don't speak Spanish will surprise you. Almost all the second generation.
I report from the front lines of the immigration controversy, or behind enemy lines. One would think your lot, being as this is a pressing issue, would appreciate this information.

Blogger Dave February 28, 2016 11:51 PM  

buwaya, you almost always double post; have you attempted to determine if it is something on your end?

Anonymous FP February 28, 2016 11:54 PM  

@91

"This entire region never had the population of an ethnic nation state."

That doesn't jibe with how I was raised in CA in the 1980s. Lots of demonizing the evil anglos, the white man along racial and economic lines. You know, the whole white guilt mantra via the left.

We know how amnesty works out thanks to the 1986 version and the failed Prop 187 in CA. But lets get shamed by a Portugesa Princess who would get flack by Brazilians for not speaking their kind of Portugese. The same Brazilians (and other latinos) who've asked me why they are not Americans too, because "we all live in the Americas!"

"If you want to get into the populations of several other states, even as of early last century, you will find the same thing.
The idea of an ethnic nation state in the US as you define it is an impossibility. Huge portions of the US won't fit your vision; I find it hard to think of any part which could. It's nearly as absurd a venture as black nationalism. "

You might want to look to your north with the mono-cultural, "its so white here!" northwest.

Of course, that is changing, much like my native CA has. But I'm a racist, nativist, nationalist nazi for pointing out the obvious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPGp03gakoo

Note the restaurant's tag line. "Not a fusion. A Mexican Revolution." Kids who want to "kill" the pinata of Trump. Welcome to your ethnic future.

Anonymous FP February 29, 2016 12:05 AM  

"Um, I have current experience in California High Schools. The number of "Hispanic" kids that don't speak Spanish will surprise you. Almost all the second generation.
I report from the front lines of the immigration controversy, or behind enemy lines. One would think your lot, being as this is a pressing issue, would appreciate this information. "

So what? They all still fly the Mexican flag in their hearts. They side with their ethnic cohorts who do fly the flag. I've heard the assimilation line for my whole life and yet look at what has happened with mass immigration in CA in the last 50 years? Oh, they'll assimilate by the 2nd or 3rd generation! Except that they really haven't and who cares if they do speak english, more keep coming and changing the culture permanently.

Blogger John Wright February 29, 2016 12:12 AM  

As the descendant of one of those Pennsylvania Dutch aliens of which the Founders spoke, I would say that my sympathies are more with Sarah Hoyt than with the savage redskin Vox Day in this case.

Vox Day has argued that representative democracy has proven itself by historical evidence inadequate when measured against direct democracy in its ability to resist corruption into an oligarchy.

On this ground he calls into question the Founding Fathers and derides those who accept the advice of the Founders as merely blind worshipers.

In this argument, his tactic is the opposite. Instead of looking at this historical evidence of when immigration has been successful and when not, he adopts a hypothetical posture that American is not a nation founded on a proposition, says she is alike a European nation in that the nation is interconnected and sustained by the shared connection of bloodlines and heredity. He quotes the Founding Fathers with approval in that case, asking us to accept their advice there.

Myself, I would say that at least some immigration was beneficial and organic to the nation: I regard myself as properly and entirely American, despite my immigrant background.

I would also say that other immigration has not been beneficial, and would agree both with Vox Day and with Sarah Hoyt in that case: for some enter with such numbers that they do not learn English and do not assimilate, and retain their own old ways, that they do not assent to the proposition, and do not have the moderate love of liberty necessary to maintain a Republican form of government.

The empirical approach to the argument would be to outline when the immigration has been beneficial and when not.

My question here is that if the problem is that members of other cultures cannot appreciate and will not support our republican form of government, on that grounds that it is the cultural artifact particular to the English speaking world, does that not mean that non-English immigration should be halted because and only because the incoming citizens do not agree to the proposition that makes the Federal government possible?

I would also be quicker to assent to the proposition that the several states, as Virginia versus New York (I have lived in both places) are like Old World nations, but that their mutual alliance which formed the federal government was quite clearly a proposition to which the states consented, bringing their people with them.

How does one square the proposition that America is not a propostional nation with the Federalist form of government?

Anonymous Jack Amok February 29, 2016 12:14 AM  

Jack there were Conscription Agents at the docks in the North impressing newly arrived immigrants into the army. Especially in late 1864 when Grant was fighting the War of Attrition to bleed Lee dry.

But they weren't conscripting the Paddies into Congress, or appointing them Generals. The leadership of the North was Anglo, just like the leadership of the South (and if you want to make a point of it, Lincoln's ancestors beat Jeff Davis' to the New World by nearly a century, but they both came from English - with a bit of Welsh thrown in in Davis' case - stock).

Blogger Escoffier February 29, 2016 12:20 AM  


"Doesn't that seem more plausible than your theory that 90% of Americans have been wrong about what America is all about for the last 50 years?"

NO

Anonymous Jack Amok February 29, 2016 12:21 AM  

Jack Amok - This comment thread is not about me, obviously, but in the interests of courtesy, and since I'm not totally clear on whether your question is rhetorical or personal:

It wasn't a question, rhetorical or personal. I was just answering your question. How do we draw the line? What do we think of all the "mixed" folks? Myself, I have English sea dog ancestors who got here from Devonshire in 1633 and Irish potato famine refugees from County Roscommon who got off the boat in 1849. We're all descended from "invaders" at some point - even Vox's redskin ancestors stole their land from some previous, unremembered tribe before we showed up and stole it from them.

But when it gets to a situation like we're in today, the test is whether you side with the current invaders or the current natives. Sounds like you pass just fine. Others struggle quite a bit.

Blogger John Wright February 29, 2016 12:33 AM  

Gentlemen, many, many people here have many times criticized moderates for being willing to open fire on people on our side who were not ideologically pure. I address my question to them.

Here is Sarah Hoyt, one of the four foundational members of the Evil Legion of Evil Authors, someone who is as much on my side, at least, of the fight as any can be, and now you are opening fire on her, claiming she is not an American because not born here, and mocking her for making the claim that she was American in her soul, having assented to the proposition on which America is founded and gives us our exceptional character, unique in history, and undergone the legalities needed to come her lawfully.

But this is a case where she is enunciating the principles on which the Union was and is founded, and you, not she, deny them.

She says all men are created equal, and you say not. Unless I misunderstand you, you say only those born here are equal. You say this is a nation like the nations of Europe, established by bloodline, not by a covenant.

She says the American ideal of equality allured her since before she was ever American, and prompted her to come here.

You hold that equality is a bad and absurd idea, and the basis of America is being a member of the Anglo-Saxon race. (This, despite that England is self destructing under its socialism. Maybe all the genetically American Englishmen came here.)

My question, and I mean it with no disrespect, is how is y'all's behavior different from that of the moderates you all so despise?

Blogger John Wright February 29, 2016 12:35 AM  

One more question, if you do not mind:

If the Japanese all assent, with few exceptions, to the idea that Japanese bloodline is what makes you Japanese, and each in his dealings with the other recognizes this as their common bond, surely those few Japanese who do not assent are mistaken, on the grounds that their neighbor's bond with them is in fact not what the dissenter says it is?

Likewise here. If the all but a few Americans assent to the proposition that this is a nation founded not on bloodline but on assent to a proposition that all men are created equal, and if each of the majority in his dealings with the other says and acts on the idea that this is in fact their common bond and source of mutual loyalty, by the same logic surely the minority position (your position, gentlemen) are mistaken, on the grounds that their neighbor's bond with them is in fact not what the dissenter says it is?

Or are you claiming that the opinion of me and all who think as I do as to what my loyalty rests on is false, and that I am really secretly unbeknowst to myself motivated by a love of Anglosaxonism?

Blogger John Wright February 29, 2016 12:44 AM  

@ Salt

" But she'd do best not to lecture on what it is to be American. She's simply not qualified."

By the same token, what are Vox Day's qualifications, please?

If he is a Red Indian, he flunks the racial test of being an American, your test; and if he does not assent to the proposition that all men are created equal, he is not an American by my test.

Is he an American in the eyes of the Law only? Not an American at all? Do nonamericans have the right to lecture Americans on what it means to be American?

By the same token, do only those born Christian have a right to lecture us on what it means to be Christian, and not converts and not born-again?

For that matter, asking a man who his family is before hearing what he has to say is very, ah, European and Old World in its flavor. So, again, what are you qualifications, Mr. Salt, please, for lecturing on what it means to be American?

Surely you must give your qualifications first if we are to judge you not based on the merit of the case, but instead on the family and bloodline of the speaker?

Should we award Hugo Awards along the same lines? There are group called the puppykickers who say that my pale white skin disqualifies me before I ever take pen to paper from every winning an award. How does your position differ from theirs, praytell?

Anonymous redsash February 29, 2016 1:12 AM  

VD: 29 years of weight lifting, wow. What gives you the greater confidence, strength from lifting, speed from track and martial arts, or technique from martial arts? Or your 357?

Being 66 years old, a former lifter, and a student of southern shaolin I have had to place my confidence in my Beretta....until I was cursed with RA in my trigger finger. I'd learn to shoot lefty but got a cataract starting up in left eye. The joys of old age, but once, once I was 5'9" weighted 210, benched 350, military pressed 200, curled 145 (swayed but did 3 sets of 7), and had 19 inch arms. Lifted from May 1965 to Dec 1967 and quit because in my sleep if my arms folded my hands would go to sleep (of all things can you believe that). Any way from that I went on a quest for strength without bulk and the best I could come with was rope climbing, chin ups, and push ups. In 1999 at 50 I could do 30 chin ups and 150 push ups at a setting and weighed 176, but you don't run over linebackers at that weight; however, between endurance and technique I never felt undermatched. Coincidentally my height weight ratio (weight divided by height in inches matched Jack Dempsey at 6'3/4" and 187 lbs.)

In retrospect I think the rope swing my father put up when I was in 4th grade was my best trainer. When I close my eyes I can still smell the wet hemp.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY February 29, 2016 1:15 AM  

John Wright,
Do you know why Myself, Salt or Vox could run for President, and Sarah can't ?

Anonymous Jack Amok February 29, 2016 1:49 AM  

She says all men are created equal, and you say not.

Oh, I believe all men are equal before God or nature as you wish. But equality isn't the question here.

It's loyalty.

Who is someone loyal to? If the people who took them or their ancestors in find themselves being invaded, are they loyal to their hosts, or to the invaders? Sarah has declared herself loyal to the "propositional" notion of America, which means someone from Portugal, or Kenya, or Belize, can have a greater right to run America than my children do. And as we've repeatedly seen, the propositional notion has a strong tendency to devolve into white people being told to let these 'foreign-Americans' have a privileged place.

Our emergency rooms don't look like Oaxacan bus depots because we've failed to welcome huddled masses yearning to breathe free. They look like that because the huddled masses have turned around and hauling in even more huddled masses. And when we decide we're not happy with the outcome, who do the "born American" immigrants side with?

Genetics matters in two ways John. One is the simple matter of Bell Curve distributions, and in that respect, there are people like Sarah who can land in the part of their ethnic Bell Curve completely compatible with Americans.

But the second way genetics matters is more pernicious and even less pleasant or respectable than mentioned things like differences in average IQ. The second way genetics matter is that people show a strong preference for others of their tribe/clan/race. When the US was a mono-cultural society, that didn't matter too much, but now that we're far enough down the multi-cultural path for the strains between tribes to show, it matters a great deal.

The problem with immigrants isn't that they can't be trusted to behave like "real Americans." It's that they can't be trusted to side with us. Sarah is a perfect example. She reflexively sides with "moar immigrants" at a time when we are flooded with poor-quality, dangerous, culturally corrosive immigrants. The ideals of this country - the things she supposedly was drawn to before she ever got here - are being destroyed by waves of foreigners with their own culture and no desire to preserve, let alone adopt, the culture she supposedly reveres. Yet she sides with them.

When gene pools go to war, most people side with genetic heritage and very, very few side with their "propositional" friends.

I don't like it much, but that's the way it is.

Blogger buwaya puti February 29, 2016 2:12 AM  

The English speaking Mexican kids fly the Mexican flag like the old Italians on Columbus St. wave the tricolore. It doesn't mean what you think it means, and it doesn't mean what the #$%&@ ethnic activists say, and it doesnt even mean what the kids say it does, because they don't believe it. These kids aren't loyalists of a Mexico they don't know, few visit, and no one likes. They only know their neighborhood, their pals, their girls and their mamas. Worse, they hang out with the chapines, guanacos (Guatemalans, Salvadorans, etc.) - that's not nationalism. And a quarter of the girls, at least, marry white guys.
This is not a nation state in the making. It's one monster, English speaking ethnic neighborhood. A huge Columbus Street, with a slightly different flag.

Blogger buwaya puti February 29, 2016 2:23 AM  

As for who fights for who -
The family legend of February 1945, Manila.
The family were refugees, survivors of the Japanese massacre, sheltering from the bombardments from both sides, in trenches dug in the gardens of St. Scholasticas convent. Then rescue came - a Sherman tank crashed through the convent wall (it was the playground wall in my day, and all we little boys knew which was the part the tank broke) followed by men of the 1st Cavalry - bronze men, speaking Spanish. It was a wonder. My great uncle followed them, seeking revenge. After all THESE Americans understood him, a Spaniard. They gave him a rifle and a helmet, and together they dug the Japs out of the bunkers in the baseball stadium.

Anonymous Discard February 29, 2016 2:27 AM  

91. buwaya puti: Looking out from San Francisco, a foreigner presumes to tell us what America is.

104: buwaya puti: Frisco was always a strong union town, never a Republican town. You are ignorant.

121: buwata puti: You sit in the cesspit of California and try to tell us refugees that it doesn't stink? Well, not compared to the cesspit where you were born. What will all you non-Whites do when there are no Whites left to sustain a White level of civilization?

138. buwata puti: No, California in 1960 was not full of third generation Catholic ethnic Republicans. Something that I noticed in my reading as a kid was the number of Italian and Polish names that turned up. Very few of those names in real life in SoCal, only in Readers' Digest.

143. buwata puti: There's more to being American that not liking Blacks. Those Chinese Republicans are the instigators of bi-lingual education. They sued and forced it on their White fellow citizens.

187. buwata puli: If deracination is the inevitable result of people moving around, then we had better keep undesirable people from moving into our country. Deracination is de-culturalization. The only magic dirt is the dirt stuck to the soles of the foreigner's feet.

199. buwata puli: I too have experience in California high schools. Most Mexicans don't pass the exit exam. I once got to see the raw numbers at Garfield High School, 99% Mexican, and the setting of the movie "Stand By Me". Mr Jaime Escalante's efforts notwithstanding, only ten percent of the kids graduated. Over 60% dropped out before the 12th grade. Losing the ability to speak Spanish, and acquiring the ability to speak English at an 8th grade level is no argument for bringing in more foreigners
You are reporting from behind enemy lines, because you are in alliance with the enemy. Now go back to the Phillipines and watch the Chinese continue to exploit your people, while you tell us that we ought to have them here too.

Anonymous Discard February 29, 2016 2:49 AM  

214. buwata puti: I taught Mexican kids, and I took credentialing classes with Mexican teachers. The teachers were worse. They commonly asserted that the very existence of the Immigration and Naturalization Service was an injustice. The Mexican flag is the flag of La Raza, period.

White guys who marry Mexicans very often come to regret it. You marry a Mexican, you marry her family. The girls like White men because they're marrying up, and because if you're educated, there are not nearly enough educated Mexican men available. So Mr Educated White Guy/Trophy Husband is spending all his weekends hanging out with his wife's semi-literate hermanos and primos. And he's got to fight nature to keep his kids from going Cholo. Bad bargain.

Blogger buwaya puti February 29, 2016 3:12 AM  

Duscard, thirty years here, and in my time many countries under my shoes. Yes indeed, I have solid ground for my opinions, thanks.
SF was not just a union town. SF had Republican mayors from 1912-1964. My wife is a native, and her family has been here since the 19th century.
Funny - I have spent my life maintaining civilization, such as keeping your US missiles and satellites flying reliably. And, funny to note, quite a few talented foreigners had a hand in this too. Maybe I misunderstood, and the guys from Germany and Hungary and Denmark and China and India were really Midwesterners.
It's funny that when I was a volunteer for the CA Republicans in the 80s-90s the old timers were saying exactly that. And the Republicans I knew were Italians and Slovenes and Russians, Filipinos and Chinese. Who knew they were all in disguise and managed such outrageous accents.
Those Chinese are the salvation of public education. Do you have any idea what math teaching in CA schools would be without them? They fight for the Calc AP like no-one else. Praise them, get down on your knees, for they save us all from the edupros.
You really do need to get out more. It's a big, big world, and there really is a lot to learn from others. No, really. That's my big beef with the US left - they are terminal cases of parochialism. They think they like foreigners, but only on their terms, because they can't imagine they are foreign. Nothing gets into their concrete skulls. You are not as bad, you understand they are different. Take the next step and UNDERSTAND.
Mexicans do poorly in school because they don't try. They behave reasonably well but they just hate it. I met Escalante once, many years ago, and he said the secret was motivation over several years, and that could only happen if one chose those who could be motivated, and track them separately through middle school. It was the tracking the edupros hated. There is no-one the US left has hurt worse than the Mexican kids.
And I will leave when I'm good and ready, thanks.

Blogger Jon M February 29, 2016 4:16 AM  

"I reside in San Francisco. One that jumps out is just how "foreign" San Francisco always was. This place, and its hinterland, was never a single culture.

The idea of an ethnic nation state in the US as you define it is an impossibility. Huge portions of the US won't fit your vision; I find it hard to think of any part which could. It's nearly as absurd a venture as black nationalism."

@91: Been thinking about this for a day or so...what you're missing is that Diversity + Proximity = War. Having all those ethnicities rubbing up against each other all over the place is not unique to America. It happened in Yugoslavia...until a bloodbath resegregated the ethnic cultures. It happened in Bosnia...until a bloodbath resegregated the ethnic cultures. It happened in Georgia...until a bloodbath resegregated the ethnic cultures. It happened in India/Pakistan...until a bloodbath resegregated the ethnic cultures. You see the pattern here? I can keep going back to the dawn of time with this.

Now you tell me that the same thing (those ethnicities rubbing up against each other) is happening in America, and we're supposed to be relieved? No can do. Not with what follows those ellipses staring me in the face from every history book ever written.

Blogger buwaya puti February 29, 2016 4:35 AM  

Jon, consider Northern California - the US region I know best. Here in the penninsula, the bay, the Valley, the northern forest, back a century or so ago was gathered about the wildest mess of European (and US) ethnicities ever cuisinarted together. No joke. Slavs and Germans, Italians and Irish, Danes (still a couple of little tourist spots), Basques, Greeks, a whole mess of Armenians, Russians and Jews, and, a pack of Mormons, Southerners, Midwesterners, and maybe a few Yankees. You can see their little distinctive leftovers in various bits of San Francisco, and in fact, every little town, there's a spot of old Europe in Oakdale and Stockton and Merced. And quite a few "Hispanics". They are nothing new. Ok, these people who have been fighting for thousands of years sit around being prosperous in the Golden State, for a century or so, and no Yugoslavia.
There is absolutely no way they can ever be re-segregated (or at least those who haven't left for Texas).
Why?
I suggest the same thing is happening now, just the skin tone varies. The Indians aren't about to ethnically cleanse Noe Valley of the hated Cambodian donut shops. The Chinese don't need to defend their enclave in Fairfield from Sikh snipers.

Blogger buwaya puti February 29, 2016 4:36 AM  

Jon, consider Northern California - the US region I know best. Here in the penninsula, the bay, the Valley, the northern forest, back a century or so ago was gathered about the wildest mess of European (and US) ethnicities ever cuisinarted together. No joke. Slavs and Germans, Italians and Irish, Danes (still a couple of little tourist spots), Basques, Greeks, a whole mess of Armenians, Russians and Jews, and, a pack of Mormons, Southerners, Midwesterners, and maybe a few Yankees. You can see their little distinctive leftovers in various bits of San Francisco, and in fact, every little town, there's a spot of old Europe in Oakdale and Stockton and Merced. And quite a few "Hispanics". They are nothing new. Ok, these people who have been fighting for thousands of years sit around being prosperous in the Golden State, for a century or so, and no Yugoslavia.
There is absolutely no way they can ever be re-segregated (or at least those who haven't left for Texas).
Why?
I suggest the same thing is happening now, just the skin tone varies. The Indians aren't about to ethnically cleanse Noe Valley of the hated Cambodian donut shops. The Chinese don't need to defend their enclave in Fairfield from Sikh snipers.

Anonymous redsash February 29, 2016 4:41 AM  

Talk to the owners of any Chinese restaurant. Whether the restaurant is in Canada, Brazil, or South Africa, and the owners are 5th generation citizens, ask them who they are and they will always answer CHINESE.

Blogger Escoffier February 29, 2016 5:06 AM  

"Um, I have current experience in California High Schools. The number of "Hispanic" kids that don't speak Spanish will surprise you. Almost all the second generation."

And that makes them what in your estimation? Americans?

I scoff at your naivete. How does one say gibsmedat in Spanish?

Blogger buwaya puti February 29, 2016 5:21 AM  

It makes them American and nothing else.
What are black people ? Not American?
Do they have to be net positive to GDP to be American?
They are a problem, but they are an American problem.

Blogger buwaya puti February 29, 2016 5:23 AM  

Don't get me wrong, building a wall is a perfectly reasonable idea and should have been done long ago, and everyone whose been against it had less than honorable motives, and Cesar Chavez was right, until he changed his mind, and etc.

Blogger buwaya puti February 29, 2016 5:23 AM  

Don't get me wrong, building a wall is a perfectly reasonable idea and should have been done long ago, and everyone whose been against it had less than honorable motives, and Cesar Chavez was right, until he changed his mind, and etc.

Blogger Rusty Fife February 29, 2016 5:28 AM  

buwaya puti wrote:The Indians aren't about to ethnically cleanse Noe Valley of the hated Cambodian donut shops. The Chinese don't need to defend their enclave in Fairfield from Sikh snipers

Yet.

Anonymous Discard February 29, 2016 7:06 AM  

buwaya puti: I've got more than twice as much time in this country as you, and the San Francisco Republicans were progressives, like Teddy Roosevelt, not big business uber alles. They sometimes ran and won as the Progressive Party. They gave California the recall and the initiative to fight big business, particularly the Southern Pacific RR. Frisco was never right-wing. It's my history, not yours, so don't try to teach me.

The Chinese are the saviors of public schooling? They want good schools, or what they consider good schools for themselves and do not give a shit about Whites or America or anybody else. Same for the Hindus. They want free, good schools for their own kids, and shit for everyone else. Gabrielino High School in San Gabriel was established once Chinese had the numbers to control it. (Prior to that, the Chinese had lied to get their kids into Arcadia or South Pasadena or San Marino schools, or put them in Catholic schools) Gabrielino High is almost entirely segregated, Chinese and Mexicans on the same campus, and taking entirely different classes. What good does that do for us? Have the Chinese done any good for your homeland? They own it and they shit on you.

Many educated Americans seem to get along with educated Asians, but have no idea how they treat Americans they regard as social inferiors. The Asians will be civil to Americans they regard as peers, out of self interest, but will piss on lesser folk. The Hindus will not pick a beef with the Chinese because they both know that there's scam enough for both of them as long as the Whites don't wake up. The Sikhs won't start sniping at the Chinese until there's just the two of them competing. That's also why there's practically no Chinese crime on the books. Involve Whites or other groups and they might start kicking back. They do a great deal of ID theft, credit card fraud, even auto theft, but zero violent crime against other groups. They only do violence in house, to stay below the radar.
And yes, it's known that the crimes takes place, but all trails lead to China and disappear. Very frustrating to the cops.

Just as you claim to have that special outsiders' perspective, I too have an unusual perspective. You see, I am smart, smarter than most professors I've ever met, smarter than all the teachers. And yet, I like to work with my hands. other than several years as a schoolteacher, I've spent my whole life getting my hands dirty making things and fixing things. I look working class, I talk working class, I dress working class, I am working class, and I am patronized and despised like the rest of the working class. I have a very good nose for disdain. I've spent much of my working life around Mexicans, Iranians, Chinese, Koreans, Hindus, and Armenians. Chinese and Hindus are the worst, along with Whites with liberal arts degrees. Rarely do I run across an American engineer or technician who lacks respect for workingmen. You like to go on about how much good you and the other foreigners do for us, but the attitudes towards honest laborers is reason enough to deport most educated aliens. We don't need you.

Anonymous 3rd Whirled February 29, 2016 9:54 AM  

The number of "Hispanic" kids that don't speak Spanish will surprise you. Almost all the second generation.

The jump in Fed Crime Stats with the 2nd Gen is also very relative, don't you think?

Anonymous History be Hard Nigga February 29, 2016 10:08 AM  

fucking fascist... I will punch the guy in his nazi face if I ever find him!

Note the anti-historical Propaganda training in full effect: it's never "Lenin or Stalin or Jewish Bolshevik Marxism and the Communist Manifesto" - all of which killed infinitely more people in the last century, and is International in scope.
They Identify with the far more efficient, and historically verifiable Western enabled, killing machine.

Blogger John Wright February 29, 2016 10:24 AM  

@ Jack Amock

"It's loyalty. Who is someone loyal to? "

But by that measure, Sarah Hoyt is loyal to the America I and all Americans recognize as America, and you are not. She is so loyal she left her home nation to come here and be one of us, and you who where born here preach against the virtues and ideals that make us what we are.

You talk like a European and are loyal to European ideals. She talks like an American and is loyal to American ideals.

So my loyalty is entirely with her. She is an American. Unless you are Pennsylvania Dutch, I have no common bloodline with you, and hence, by your measure, no loyalty to you.

Anonymous Jack Amok February 29, 2016 11:19 AM  

You talk like a European and are loyal to European ideals. She talks like an American and is loyal to American ideals.

No John, I talk like an American who has tried to share his world and ideals with anyone who wanted to come here, and has seen his country and his ideals trashed. Land of the Free? The government tells you what kind of toilet you can have in your bathroom. Religious freedom? Hope you enjoyed the Winter Solstice performance at the local school. Rule of law? 40 million people who came here illegally, who work here illegally, pay no taxes and send their money back home where their hearts really are? Small government? Rugged individualism? An aversion to the very clannishness you decry?

Loyalty to the idea of increased immigration is disloyalty to all the other ideas we hold dear, because the vast majority immigrants today are not loyal to those other ideas. And most of the ones - like Sarah - who are don't understand how different they are. They think that since their great people, patriotic, productive, etc., that those other immigrants must be too.

The evidence is in front of your eyes. I know, it hurts to see it, to admit it. I did and still does for me. We want to pretend that there's another explanation. I grew up in a small town where the largest "minority" population was Portuguese. I like them, fine people. They really were the first great European explorers too. If the country was bringing in a bunch of Portuguese people, especially ones like Sarah, we'd be fine.

But we're not, and she's not differentiating between herself and the Oaxoacan bus stop. She does herself, and also those of us who do see the difference, a vast disservice by pretending it's all the same.

Here's the greatest American ideal of all: a chance to work hard and leave my children a better place. How well has that idea done these last fifty years of mass immigration?


Anonymous FP February 29, 2016 11:26 AM  

"So my loyalty is entirely with her. She is an American. Unless you are Pennsylvania Dutch, I have no common bloodline with you, and hence, by your measure, no loyalty to you."

To quote Sam Donaldson of all people, from a few years ago:

"The greatest slogan that I hated during this last campaign was ‘We want to take back our country.’ Guys, it’s not your country anymore — it’s our country and you’re part of it, but that thinking is going to defeat Republicans nationally if they don’t get rid of it.”"

Is she going to deport all of them? Or does she think we can live with the socialists?

Anonymous Discard February 29, 2016 1:14 PM  

231. Jack Amok: I too wanted to share my country with useful yet diverse foreigners. I was never a multi-cultist but a melting potter. Teaching their offspring taught me better. Good kids, I loved some of them and still do, but they'll never be American, most of them. They weren't loud about their "Asian pride" or La Raza loyalties, but it was simply a given. And the young and diverse teachers I met in credentialing classes will make sure it remains a given.
Sharing the country was a nice dream, but it did not work. Now we have to take it back.

OpenID sigbouncer February 29, 2016 1:16 PM  

@211

That's a great question redsash.

You must have been a handful back in your day. I have some years experience in Northern CMA and have played around with some Southern CMA guys back in the day. Good teachings if your shifu has the goods.

Blogger VD February 29, 2016 1:20 PM  

But by that measure, Sarah Hoyt is loyal to the America I and all Americans recognize as America, and you are not.

Exactly. And that's why I left. Because your America 3.2 is not the America 1.0 that my ancestor died at Valley Forge fighting to establish.

And that is why civil war and partition are inevitable.

Blogger James Dixon February 29, 2016 4:11 PM  

And yet Vox will let you post stand without insult, John. Look how Sarah and the others treat such dissent over there before you decide who is acting American and who isn't.

Anonymous Rhetoric Man February 29, 2016 6:12 PM  

Hadley—“Rather than assume the responsibilities and duties of kinship, clan, tribe and nation, she abandoned and deserted her people and her culture, and refashioned herself "American". In times of war this is considered treason.”

Assuming that Americans in general would consider current day immigration a time of war and favoring it an act of treason.

Salt—“Sarah is Portuguese, and like Michael Jackson's journey unto whiteness, will forever be what she was born.”

Be Not Afraid—“To me, Sarah is the kind of immigrant we want.”

The essence of what is an American.

VD—“they'll still be screaming "Me be real American" when the civil wars begin and ultranationalists are dragging them from their homes.”

Assuming that ultranationalists will have the clout to pull off such actions if the civil wars begin.


Bob K. Mando—“it’s when she overtly lies about the principles upon which this nation was founded.”



You mean like all men are created equal?


VD—“It wasn't until I actually read Jefferson, Washington, and especially Sam Adams that I realized it was all retroactive, ahistorical bullshit written by a) the winners of the Civil War and b) immigrants romanticizing the immigrant experience.”

Now we get at the heart of the matter. Posterity to the founding fathers meant the creation of an independent nation, with a vigorous and adaptable form of government, with a body of liberties that were malleable to the times. Thomas Jefferson bore witness to the new government as a unique combination of the freest elements of English law and political custom. While he was concerned that unrestricted immigration of peoples from lands unacquainted with the principle of representative government MIGHT undo the careful work of our Founding Fathers, he said prophetically, “from such we are to expect the greatest number of immigrants.” Indeed, American economic growth required a massive influx of domestic and foreign labor. Alexander Hamilton wrote, "Immigrants exhibit a large proportion of ingenious and valuable workmen who by expatriating from Europe improved their own condition, and added to the industry and wealth of the United States.” In Common Sense, Thomas Paine upheld "this new world" as "the asylum for the persecuted lovers of civil and religious liberty." Jefferson argued for "a right which nature has given to all men, of departing from the country in which chance, not choice, has placed them." Madison defended immigration on the grounds that it is "always from places where living is more difficult to places where it is less difficult," so "the happiness of the emigrant is promoted by the change."


VD—“As for the USA, it will break apart in ethnic warfare, like all multi-ethnic empires do in time.”


America COULD break apart in this manner 1) IF whites are completely unified as a whole, or if there are dedicated whites as in a die-hard group, dedicated to the cause will implement force to pursue this agenda or 2) one or more devastating political, economic, or social upheavals within a short time span brings together whites as a collective to initiate this change.

I’ll wait for the movie to come out.

Jack Amok—“I'd be really, really glad to welcome a whole bunch of responsible, liberty-loving people to my country, if only they'd stop stabbing me in the back in favor of their ethnic cohorts every time there's a dispute.”

Who has committed this atrocity against you?

Blogger SciVo February 29, 2016 6:44 PM  

Rhetoric Man wrote:VD—“As for the USA, it will break apart in ethnic warfare, like all multi-ethnic empires do in time.”


America COULD break apart in this manner 1) IF whites are completely unified as a whole, or if there are dedicated whites as in a die-hard group, dedicated to the cause will implement force to pursue this agenda or 2) one or more devastating political, economic, or social upheavals within a short time span brings together whites as a collective to initiate this change.

I’ll wait for the movie to come out.


/facepalm

Look, I get it. White men like me are awesome, we really are. Future history will be determined by what we do, and you get that. But there's a logical corollary that it will also be determined by what we don't do.

All it would take for the U.S. to break up is for white men to become a small enough minority that we would no longer be able to keep the others from each others' throats. Do you really have no experience with the world outside the U.S.?

Anonymous Rhetoric Man February 29, 2016 6:59 PM  

"Look, I get it. White men like me are awesome, we really are. Future history will be determined by what we do, and you get that."

The armchair warrior stench is strong here.

"All it would take for the U.S. to break up is for white men to become a small enough minority that we would no longer be able to keep the others from each others' throats."

Had those white men been powerful enough, they would have never got to that minority in the first place. Why not start now? What are you waiting for, the right time?

The movie will be great. There will be a ton of white men murdering non-white men, women, and children. Don't forget the children.

Anonymous Rhetoric Man February 29, 2016 7:04 PM  

"Having all those ethnicities rubbing up against each other all over the place is not unique to America. It happened in Yugoslavia...until a bloodbath resegregated the ethnic cultures. It happened in Bosnia...until a bloodbath resegregated the ethnic cultures. It happened in Georgia...until a bloodbath resegregated the ethnic cultures. It happened in India/Pakistan...until a bloodbath resegregated the ethnic cultures. You see the pattern here? I can keep going back to the dawn of time with this."

/facepalm

Because those areas have similar histories of distinct, perpetual, centuries-old ethnic and religious strife compared to the United States.

Blogger Escoffier February 29, 2016 7:34 PM  

John Wright, seriously, work on your reading comprehension. Every single point you made was at best a strawman. At best. In my humble the specific element we were taking umbrage at with Sarah were her attempts to redefine American in such a way as to have almost no meaning whatsoever. And I say this as someone who normally enjoys your blog and comments here. I'll say again that Vox has specifically stated that he thinks, and I agree, that low levels of immigration are fine and that there is no ethnic purity test on offer. That's my impression how am I going wrong?

Anonymous Jack Amok February 29, 2016 9:38 PM  

Who has committed this atrocity against you?

Figuratively, the people turning this country into a third world basketcase run by banana republic dictators.

Literally, my nephew's best friend was stabbed to death by an illegal immigrant from Mexico while he was waiting in line at a 7-11.

Any other questions?

Anonymous Discard March 01, 2016 1:55 AM  

240. Rhetoric Man: So, given that some peoples have histories of perpetual ethnic and religious strife, we should bring them here? Why import strife?

Blogger Tom Kratman March 01, 2016 6:51 AM  

"Jack there were Conscription Agents at the docks in the North impressing newly arrived immigrants into the army. Especially in late 1864 when Grant was fighting the War of Attrition to bleed Lee dry."

I don't suppose you could come up with an original cite for this proposition, ST, eh? I ask because, given how recruitment and the draft worked in the Civil War, I find this _most_ unlikely. Now recruiters? Recruiters offering all kinds of nifty bonuses? Sure. Recruiters operating undercover even in Ireland and offering those same nifty bonuses? Yes, some, anyway. But that is some distance from "impressment" for anyone who didn't major in linguistic matricide at an Ivy League school.

Short version: "Thees word you are usink? Ah dunno thin' i' means wha' you thin' i' means."

Blogger Tom Kratman March 01, 2016 7:11 AM  

Let's suppose, arguendo, that everything said here is correct. Sarah is not and never can be American. No immigrant can be. "What, never? No, never!" Okay, fine. I'm out and the next one to say "thank you for your service" gets kicked in the balls - which is often my inclination, anyway - because that doesn't count and doesn't matter; there is no room for "by blood given if not by blood received."

Now take the second proposition, that America as founded is so dead it's not even dust. Take the third, implicit if not explicit: There is hardly anyone who's sufficiently pure WASP left. And the fourth: And most of those are so decadent and incapable of self defense that they're a liability, not an asset. After all, they're the ones who tossed the country to the wolves.

So it makes sense, to count on those useless, frail, decadent WASPs (Scots-Irish, which also includes a good chunk of me? Nope, we're out, too, as Celties and pre-Celts, not WASPs), to toss away allies for the coming civil war, and then to pin one's hopes on just what?

Anonymous Rhetoric Man March 01, 2016 9:32 AM  

"Figuratively, the people turning this country into a third world basketcase run by banana republic dictators."

Those people are white.

"Literally, my nephew's best friend was stabbed to death by an illegal immigrant from Mexico while he was waiting in line at a 7-11."

How convenient to have a story about someone you know who supposedly had their throat slit. Right, because illegals in general and in droves hang out at convenience stores salivating at the thought of knifing customers.

"So, given that some peoples have histories of perpetual ethnic and religious strife, we should bring them here? Why import strife?"

How many Georgians, Pakis, Indians (dot, not feather), and Bosnians have come to the United States and continued their bloodbath rivalries?

Blogger SciVo March 01, 2016 10:16 AM  

Rhetoric Man wrote:"All it would take for the U.S. to break up is for white men to become a small enough minority that we would no longer be able to keep the others from each others' throats."

Had those white men been powerful enough, they would have never got to that minority in the first place. Why not start now? What are you waiting for, the right time?

The movie will be great. There will be a ton of white men murdering non-white men, women, and children. Don't forget the children.


You're projecting. You understand that non-whites project power by killing. That makes sense to you. How do white men keep the peace? You don't know. Why don't white men kill to remain the majority? You have no clue, it's completely baffling to you. So confusing.

Anonymous Rhetoric Man March 01, 2016 3:58 PM  

"How do white men keep the peace?"

Through violence. Ask any southron when the darkies sought to secure their liberties in the 1950's and 1960's.

"Why don't white men kill to remain the majority?"

Son, ignorance is no way to live. MEN, regardless if they are white, black, Asian, etc. KILL to remain in the majority.

Again, what are YOU waiting for?

Anonymous Discard March 02, 2016 5:01 AM  

Rhetoric Man: So far, the peoples you mention are limited in number, and they do not have to deal with their traditional enemies. They live in their own enclaves, under White law rather than their tribal law. But look at Europe, where they are numerous and violent. Is it not better to prevent a problem than allow it to grow, and then try to fix it?

Blogger setnaffa March 07, 2016 2:40 PM  

Vox, you're just wrong. And it makes a lot of people sad that you're such a bitter, whingy racist.

You had one job: communicate the virtues of America. You coulda been a contenda. But now you're clearly seen as a pariah. You are less American than you can even comprehend. And your hate won't let you see.

You have our pity.

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