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Friday, September 30, 2016

Brainstorm: Alt-White and Alt-West

Greg Johnson, the editor of Counter-Currents, has released the podcast of the recent Brainstorm session. You can listen to it there.
Vox Day invited me to join him in one of his Brainstorm sessions to discuss the Alternative Right. This is the recording. The Brainstorm format involves taking questions from the audience as well as from one another. It was a highly enjoyable conversation, and I want to thank Vox and his listeners for making it possible. Topics discussed include:
  • Reasons to oppose race-mixing, in answer to a question that made specific reference to Richard Spencer’s views in his Alt Right press conference
  • Vox’s racial identity and how it impacts his views of ethnic and racial nationalism
  • The African population bomb
  • The Alt Right and White Nationalism (“The Alt Right is White Nationalism . . . or Nothing at All” and “Trump, Hillary, and the Alt Right“)
  • The original Alternative Right webzine
  • How Vox, Mike Cernovich, and Milo became associated with the Alt Right label
  • The Milo question (“Alt Right vs. Alt Wrong“)
  • Allies, enemies, and neutrals
  • Andrew Anglin’s anti-Milo fatwa
  • Opportunities vs. threats
  • Vox on the Alt-White vs. the Alt-West
  • How ethnonationalism is for all nations
There is a LOT more, so if you're interested in the Alt-Right, the Alt-White, and the Alt-West, I suspect you'll want to listen to the whole thing.

Labels: , ,

67 Comments:

Anonymous DissidentRight September 30, 2016 7:38 PM  

Excellent, thanks!

Anonymous Ronnie September 30, 2016 7:42 PM  

Look forward to listening to it in a few hours.

Anonymous BGKB September 30, 2016 8:10 PM  

Why did no one link the news of Obama's Sambo name with the possibility of him having a private server?

"President Obama has provoked even greater concern regarding Hillary Clinton’s far-reaching email scandal with revelations that he used an undisclosed pseudonym in email communications that were routed through her private email server. "

http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/264303/obamas-email-alias-clinton-raises-disturbing-ari-lieberman

OpenID peppermintfrosted September 30, 2016 8:24 PM  

The Alt-White's attack on the Alt-West is the best thing that could happen to the Alt-West, since the Alt-West's #1 problem is the accusation that they are the Alt-White.

It's also the best thing that could happen to the Alt-White, since the Alt-White needs the Alt-West to push the Overton window.

I'm personally Alt-White, but I pretend to be Alt-West all the time.

Some day this feud will be real, for now let's keep kayfabe.

It also doesn't really matter who knows this, as long as the main people keep kayfabe, because it's more or less in the open that the Alt-West and the Alt-White are currently working together but have this latent fault line.

Blogger Montrose September 30, 2016 8:48 PM  

These delineations seem pointless and counterproductive for "not punching to the right". However, not punching to the right does not mean no punching to the left.

Otherwise, I can make my own opinion based on argument, and likely don't have to agree with any single "group" completely.

Blogger Lazarus September 30, 2016 8:58 PM  

Montrose wrote:These delineations seem pointless and counterproductive for "not punching to the right". However, not punching to the right does not mean no punching to the left.

Otherwise, I can make my own opinion based on argument, and likely don't have to agree with any single "group" completely.


We can put you into the "confused" column in the database, I reckon.

Anonymous Dave September 30, 2016 9:13 PM  

Truly interesting discussion; thanks to Vox and Greg for the Brainstorm and recording. I was in on most of the live conversation, but really appreciate the ability to re-hear it while at work or in the car.

Recommend this to everyone with any curiosity whatsoever re the alt right.

My favorite part is when the discussion turns to writing and Vox relays the story of how JCW whipped off a story to him that Vox discovered sometime later and JCW didn't even remember writing it.

Blogger Lazarus September 30, 2016 9:31 PM  

no one is going to be running around sacrificing slave girls to Odin
-VD in podcast

Well, that is a big disappointment. This might be a deal-breaker.

Anonymous FKA Max September 30, 2016 9:39 PM  

I think the biggest issue the old Alt Right has, which you call Alt White, is that they feel that the new Alt Right, which you call Alt West and which the old Alt Right calls Alt Light/Lite, has not given enough respect to the hard work the old Alt Right has put in to gain mainstream recognition, etc.

Especially Milo should be more respectful of the old Alt Right. My suggestion is, that Milo should release an official apology to the old Alt Right, and honor their efforts in the defense of White and Western Civilization.

I have no problem if he continues to use the term Alt Right in the future, but he should know his place, which is not at the core of the Alt Right and he should always show respect to the ''Founding Fathers'' of the Alt Right. He is too cocky.

All this conflict can be cleared away, in my opinion, if Milo apologizes. I think the old Alt Right is not looking for a fight, but if it feels its vital interests are threatened, it will defend itself and lash out, as we have seen over the last several weeks.

It is up to Milo to clean up this mess.

Blogger Lazarus September 30, 2016 9:49 PM  

FKA Max wrote:All this conflict can be cleared away, in my opinion, if Milo apologizes. I think the old Alt Right is not looking for a fight, but if it feels its vital interests are threatened, it will defend itself and lash out, as we have seen over the last several weeks.

Lash out at Hillary,the Other Female Impersonator, Alt-Dude. That is the game in play. If you want to be political, get sophisticated.

It is not cool to be jealous of a drag queen, dear.

Blogger Ben Sanderson September 30, 2016 10:01 PM  

Ya still Alt West/white remain fictions peculiar to this blog only, so sorry...

Blogger Lazarus September 30, 2016 10:04 PM  

FKA Max wrote:All this conflict can be cleared away, in my opinion, if Milo apologizes. I think the old Alt Right is not looking for a fight, but if it feels its vital interests are threatened, it will defend itself and lash out, as we have seen over the last several weeks.

Thank you for your concern Ben. You are a very empathetic person.

Blogger cdb September 30, 2016 10:04 PM  

I have been reading Greg Johnson and Vox Day for several years now and have great respect for them both, and I was very happy to see them having such a friendly and productive conversation (and I am thrilled to see Vox Day reading Samuel Huntington). I personally lean more towards Vox's “Alt-West” vision of defending Western Civilization generally, including Christianity, with preservation of the white race being an essential component of the whole. I think that so long as the 14 words are a non-negotiable part of the Alt-West, the Alt-White has no real reason to object to an alliance, and I'm glad to see that Greg Johnson agrees.

In regards to the imperialism issue, I am glad it was addressed. I am also a “universal nationalist” in principle, and I think that emphasizing that the survival and flourishing of whites does not necessitate harm to other peoples is a good way to win over the normies. Most people have been taught to believe that being “pro-white” is just a cover for wanting to enslave or commit genocide against everyone else. Obviously this is a grotesque false dichotomy that has been deliberately forced on us and needs to be fought. I think Greg Johnson and most of the Alt-White (except for a small number who actually do think that other races don't matter and that genocide is good or necessary) would also agree.

I also think that having non-white allies of the Alt-Right is inevitable and probably helpful. The inclusive but pro-black rhetoric of MLK was, after all, more successful during the Civil Rights movement than the more militant pro-black militancy of Malcolm X.

OpenID peppermintfrosted September 30, 2016 10:07 PM  

@5, we disagree about which side is the right. Alt-West calls Alt-White socialists and feminists and Alt-White calls Alt-West cosmopolitans.

Blogger Lazarus September 30, 2016 10:10 PM  

cdb wrote:Most people have been taught to believe that being “pro-white” is just a cover for wanting to enslave or commit genocide against everyone else. Obviously this is a grotesque false dichotomy that has been deliberately forced on us and needs to be fought.

Absolutely. Race pride does not equal genocide. simple.

Blogger Johnny September 30, 2016 10:13 PM  

Forget whatever it is you think about Milo because it doesn't matter. If he is damaging he can't be stopped and if he is helpfull all the better. Meanwhile a back and forth with Milo would be a needless distraction.

And by the way, he does not seem like the sort who gives out apologies.

Anonymous Die Fledermaus September 30, 2016 10:17 PM  

The only thing which bothered me in this podcast was the attempt to attribute Netanyahu any ideological motive whatsoever. The man is the perfect opportunist and will say and do whatever he perceives, in any given time, to be conductive to him staying in power. Ask your buddy Van Creveld if you don't trust me on this.

I'm also extremely opposed to the American financial support of Israel - for two reasons. One is that as you said, there's a good chance of it ending abruptly one day with disastrous results, and it is far better to pre-empt this with an agreement for its gradual cessation. The second is that this support has an ulterior hidden motive - to support the American defense industry while choking the Israeli one, which the US sees as a direct competitor.

Anonymous Luke September 30, 2016 10:19 PM  

Yes, but has Vox read 1) Victor Davis Hanson's "Carnage and Culture", 2) Thomas Chittum's "Civil War Two", or 3) P.A. Sorokin's "Man and Society in Calamity"?

I've never heard him refer to any of these.

Blogger Lazarus September 30, 2016 10:23 PM  

97th minute of the podcast.

corruption of money.

50% of Hillary campaign from Jews
25% of Trump campaign from Jews.

This is the entryism the Altists should reject first.

Blogger Lazarus September 30, 2016 10:30 PM  

Many thanks to Greg for the podcast. Sometimes "radio" is a better medium.

Blogger Lovekraft September 30, 2016 10:40 PM  

Social media is flush with new energy because people desire a voice, and if it isn't allowed in public (try going to a speaker's corner and advancing alt-right ideas in diversitopia), or our leaders have been co-opted, this buzz will grow louder.

Until leaders emerge, positions clarify, and people fall away from the current skirmishing and fall behind a leader(s). This could be this presidential election's greatest benefit: quickly bringing forth leaders around a strong coalescing of alt-right principles.

Anonymous Northern Observer September 30, 2016 10:50 PM  

I'll give it a listen, but I found part of the summary interesting:

Vox’s racial identity and how it impacts his views of ethnic and racial nationalism

Have views on those issues changed since he discovered his racial identity? If not, then the 'impact' would be negligible.

Anonymous EZ Pack Single Serve of Deplorable Spartacus September 30, 2016 11:00 PM  

Luke wrote:Yes, but has Vox read 1) Victor Davis Hanson's "Carnage and Culture", 2) Thomas Chittum's "Civil War Two", or 3) P.A. Sorokin's "Man and Society in Calamity"?

I've never heard him refer to any of these.


Then he's quite obviously not qualified to present an opinion on these matters, Yes But. Nothing to see here, please move along.
http://www.castaliahouse.com/downloads/victoria-a-novel-of-4th-generation-war

Blogger cheddarman September 30, 2016 11:39 PM  

Excellent podcast.

I would like to Alt Right to take a stand against fiat money. Creating moeny out of nothing enables the globalists more than anything else, imo.

Blogger Matt September 30, 2016 11:39 PM  

...should release an official apology...

Saying this in any circumstance is an embarrassment. Saying it about Milo is genuinely ludicrous, and as Vox has said in a similar context, a category error.

Blogger papabear October 01, 2016 12:11 AM  

Ben Sanderson just has to make his opinion known...

Blogger praetorian October 01, 2016 12:15 AM  

I was only able to hear the first half hour of this, and thought Greg was stumbling around a lot (starting off on the race-mixing question was awkward.) The next hour was absolute gold between you guys.

I was particularly glad to hear that the problematic aspects of imperialism are recognized widely, despite some loud proponents of it.

Thank you for arranging this Vox and Greg, if you are reading, thank you for all that you do.

Blogger praetorian October 01, 2016 12:16 AM  

Ya still Alt West/white remain fictions peculiar to this blog only, so sorry...

Why do you care?

Blogger Harsh October 01, 2016 12:44 AM  

I'm personally Alt-White, but I pretend to be Alt-West all the time.

Some day this feud will be real, for now let's keep kayfabe.


It will be like Spartan warriors fighting a bunch of retarded children, but sure, delude yourself into thinking you have any chance of winning that feud.

Blogger direita October 01, 2016 12:45 AM  

When people point to the surge in dissident thought surrounding the Trump campaign and the general increase of White discontent, they usually point to a group of people on YouTube with considerable reach, Sargon of Akkad, Stefan Molynuex, Paul Joseph Watson, Alex Jones, Black Pigeon Speaks and Milo himself. All of these people have a libertarianesque view on the world and all of them have become some what friendly to what we are trying to achieve. The question is why are they doing it?

The libertarian world view covets two principles above all else, personal freedom and making money. It isn't a means to an end, it is the end. By contrast, the Nationalist believes in changing the entire fabric of the modern world so that it reflects and compliments what is best for the racial group as a whole. If ((somebody)) mails me and offers me large amounts of cash to turn this blog into a civic Nationalist yawn-fest I cannot do so, I would be a traitor to my principles and people. A libertarian can do whatever he likes because his core ideals actually encourage him to use his personal freedom to make money in any way he sees fit.

White anger, fear and discontent is a market, and it's being exploited. This is not necessarily a bad thing, Stefan Molynuex makes a living from tapping into the anti-PC zeitgeist and the angst of White people.
Milo Yiannopoulos is grotesque because what he's doing is attempting to create a captive market, he wants to make a career based upon White fear and anxiety about the future, but he's closing off all avenues that offer a solution to that fear and anxiety, the man is a serpent.

I wholeheartedly support those who are trying to reject this snake, Milo, from our midst, it isn't just about who lays claim to the title ''Alt-Right'' it's about who and what directs the increasingly angry and fearful White masses, and we racial Nationalists are the only people who can truthfully and sincerely give our people the answers, and the possibility of a better tomorrow.

Blogger Ghost of Nathan Bedford Forrest October 01, 2016 1:00 AM  

While new to this forum, I believe the Alt-Right (Alt-West v. Alt-Right) should avoid internecine battles at this time. There will be a time for battle once our common enemies (Cucks, Churchians, SJWs, and Commies) are defeated. At the end of the day, the 14 words must be the glue that holds the Alt-Right together.

Blogger Harsh October 01, 2016 1:08 AM  

While new to this forum, I believe the Alt-Right (Alt-West v. Alt-Right) should avoid internecine battles at this time.

True. As soon as those Omega retard alt-whiters fuck off we'll be good.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros October 01, 2016 1:23 AM  

Harsh wrote:

It will be like Spartan warriors fighting a bunch of retarded children, but sure, delude yourself into thinking you have any chance of winning that feud.


Why are you insulting people calling for peace after a truce has been called? Are you a D&C Soros shill?

Either way, you just got disinvited from all future White Nationalist dinner parties.

Blogger praetorian October 01, 2016 1:25 AM  

We've got 38 days to Make America Great Again, folks.

We can save the aspies v chads v race-mixing homos v odinists gang warfare for after the election.

OpenID gnossoss October 01, 2016 2:01 AM  

"Forget whatever it is you think about Milo because it doesn't matter. If he is damaging he can't be stopped and if he is helpfull all the better."

While his writing is enjoyable, I find Milo's degeneracy repulsive. However, thinking about the situation, I recently saw some of the strategic benefits of Milo that I'm sure are plain to Vox but which I hadn't noticed before.

Here's the thing about Milo. First, he's presenting some alt-right ideas, and the movement itself, to the mainstream. Even if he distorts the movement and the ideas somewhat, presenting them at all is a benefit. Second, his being a double victim group member both insulates him from attacks and makes some left-wing people a bit more likely to listen to him, if only because they're not as willing to shriek at a gay Jew (being themselves white and/or male). Finally, and this is crucial, whatever he does is 100% deniable by the alt-right because he openly says he's not part of it.

Point #3 basically means that the alt-right can keep any good he does and erase any bad he does by simply denying it. Worst case, if he steps in it badly enough, the alt-right can just say "he was never one of us."

On the other hand, whatever proselytizing he does on behalf of the alt-right is pure benefit. And probably the worst thing that happens is someone comes to you and says "do you guys really think X like that gay guy said?" and you then have an opportunity to explain what the alt-right position really is.

So not only could you not stop Milo from doing his Milo thing if you wanted to, but he's like a third party going into enemy territory, shooting at the enemy, and telling everyone how great your side is. Even if he killed some of the people there you could just say he wasn't one of you, but all the bad guys he shot will still be dead. It's win-win.

So tl;dr, he's a degenerate helping to make a better society that wouldn't tolerate a man like him to be doing what he's doing. Let him attack the enemy and if someone comes to you a little confused about the alt-right stances because of what he said, you'll have an opportunity to tell them the real deal.

Anonymous Luke October 01, 2016 2:05 AM  

23. EZ Pack Single Serve of Deplorable Spartacus September 30, 2016 11:00 PM


Sigh. I did NOT say that Vox was ignorant had he missed reading any of those. I simply wanted to hear his take on them if he had.

BTW, I've read Lind's excellent "Victoria" 3 times. "One Second After" is a fair (if slightly inferior) companion work. Rawles has several books that are peers IMO, i.e. "Patriots".

Anonymous Jack Amok October 01, 2016 2:13 AM  

I think the biggest issue the old Alt Right has, which you call Alt White, is that they feel that the new Alt Right, which you call Alt West and which the old Alt Right calls Alt Light/Lite, has not given enough respect to the hard work the old Alt Right has put in to gain mainstream recognition, etc.

Yeah, so, time for a little Tell The Truth Monday on a Friday evening. The majority white culture in America embarked on a six-decade long attempt at building a racially desegregated society. It was a horrible idea. Huge mistake. Huge disaster. HWhite* Nationalists today are associated with the oldest, strongest opposition to this misguided effort.

And they'll never get any credit or kudos for it.

Because more important than being right or wrong - and it's kind of ironic considering WN is an Identity-based movement - more important than being right or wrong is belonging. And sixty-plus years ago, as the rest of the country went about this major, misguided undertaking, the Hwhite Nationalists very clearly said they weren't part of it. They weren't going to be on the team.

So now the attitude of the average White person - and this may change in another generation - is "who cares if you were right, you're not on our team. Your kind opted out."

When we had something we thought was important, no matter how wrong we may have been, the WN folks said no thanks, not going to help. And even if you're right about something, you can't walk away from the team like that and still lay claim to a common identity.

Probably not a welcome message for some folks, but it's the truth and accepting it is the way forward. Caring more about the 14 than the 88 is what will unite the team again.

* BTW, what's the deal with the hu-white pronunciation? Is there some significance to it, or is it just a little agree-and-amplify fun?

Anonymous Jack Amok October 01, 2016 3:19 AM  

I was favorably impressed by most of what Greg had to say. The only two things that gave me pause were his... oddly misguided response to Milo, and his prioritization of raising money.

The latter is probably just an artifact of Greg trying to make a living out of being WN, but it isn't the best impression, since we've seen our share of opportunistic hustlers trying to make a buck out of politics. The idea of making a living off of politics immediately puts most alt-righters on their guard. He certainly didn't push this, he only brought it up in response to a direct question from Vox, so I don't have any alarm bells going off, but it's a... weak spot. I liked the attitude he expressed about assuming the money is endorsing his positions vs buying his future support.

Milo... well. I nearly drove into a ditch laughing when Greg suggested Milo was attacking the Alt-White in an effort to make himself look moderate. Milo has built his career out of being the most flamboyant (in every sense of the word) personality on the stage. If someone told him he was the moderate one on an issue, he might consider it a personal failure. And the discussion about "taking people away from Milo"? Vox tried to redirect that by pointing out Milo isn't a movement and doesn't have people, but Greg seems to see him as a rival for influence. Possibly another side effect of Greg trying to make a career out of this, but it really does misunderstand the situation. Milo's not a leader of anything, and there's no need to lure followers away from him.

Anonymous Anonymous October 01, 2016 4:47 AM  

alt-right is "alt-white".

Blogger VD October 01, 2016 5:16 AM  

has Vox read 1) Victor Davis Hanson's "Carnage and Culture", 2) Thomas Chittum's "Civil War Two", or 3) P.A. Sorokin's "Man and Society in Calamity"?

Yes, twice. No. no. I've also read VDH's A WAR LIKE NO OTHER.

Blogger VD October 01, 2016 5:18 AM  

Ya still Alt West/white remain fictions peculiar to this blog only, so sorry...

What does that matter when everyone is reading this blog?

Blogger Markku October 01, 2016 7:03 AM  

Just so that everybody understands what is happening, quoting Daily Stormer:

Alt-Right: Now or Never

Hate to say it, fam. But I guess I have to, because no one else is going to: if we don’t get control of this term now, it’s going to be gone real soon. Alex Jones is already picking it up, and this week used it to refer to the Jew Michael Savage (nee Weiner) and well as Stephen Crowder (he actually said Hillary was a Nazi going after the Alt-Right Jew Savage). Vox Day is doing something weird with it and MILO is doing his thing.

I’m doing my best to hold down the fort here.

I’m doing interviews making sure the term is associated with White Nationalism.


----

This is why these people are coming here.

Blogger Markku October 01, 2016 7:04 AM  

And this is also why nobody cared previously that Vox has called himself Alt-Right since March this year, but now it's suddenly the worst thing ever. It's all kabuki theater. Don't be fooled, people.

Anonymous bub October 01, 2016 7:13 AM  

The AriAweAwhAreAliQ community.

Blogger Lovekraft October 01, 2016 7:51 AM  

I put forth the idea that alt-WHITE is necessary for those living 'closer to the fire.' They don't have the luxury of gated communities, a neutral police/legal system. These people have to walk under the shroud of Knockout Game and BLM. These people have to see the media turning their women and children against them.

So back off. We have no right to claim we're fighting for the cause when we ignore the valid concerns and struggles of these brothers and sisters.

IMO, the alt-west has a duty to consider these victims. They are feeling the real brunt of globalist diversity.

Blogger Lovekraft October 01, 2016 7:51 AM  

It is mutually beneficial: the alt-west intellectuals fight for better laws, representation etc.

The alt-white is there to keep the jackals at bay.

Blogger VD October 01, 2016 7:55 AM  

So back off. We have no right to claim we're fighting for the cause when we ignore the valid concerns and struggles of these brothers and sisters.

We aren't ignoring them. But if they're dumb enough to attack us instead of those attacking them, yes, we're going to teach them not to do that.

Blogger VD October 01, 2016 7:56 AM  

Vox Day is doing something weird with it

Vox's 1st Law....

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) October 01, 2016 7:57 AM  

These people have to see the media turning their women and children against them.

Do the alt white have many women our children?

Blogger VD October 01, 2016 8:00 AM  

Ya still Alt West/white remain fictions peculiar to this blog only, so sorry...

Correction: #AltWest is trending on Gab.

Blogger Harsh October 01, 2016 10:53 AM  

Why are you insulting people calling for peace after a truce has been called? Are you a D&C Soros shill?

I wish I had some of that Soros money. I hear he pays well...

Anonymous A.B. Prosper October 01, 2016 12:33 PM  

Lazarus wrote:no one is going to be running around sacrificing slave girls to Odin

-VD in podcast

Well, that is a big disappointment. This might be a deal-breaker.


Good. Its a waste of slave girls. Honestly trying to reduce the supply by voluntarily sending them with their master to the afterlife is even more wasteful than breaking swords before burial

We could sacrifice convicts we were planning to execute though .

I've even heard Asatru suggest this.

Its not strictly wrong for non Christians since you were planning to have the State kill the person anyway, just add ritual.

That said I suspect people aren't going to be OK with that.

Anyway back on topic and less silly, I quite enjoyed the pod-cast. Our hosts radio voice is getting better too.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros October 01, 2016 12:52 PM  

Harsh wrote:I wish I had some of that Soros money. I hear he pays well...

I'll stick with my Putin paycheck, thanks.

Blogger Aeoli Pera October 01, 2016 1:10 PM  

I think you guys missed an opportunity to point out that a big reason "gas the kikes" is not a serious-minded policy proposal is that it backs Jews into a corner. Sun Tzu says not to do this.

Blogger Aeoli Pera October 01, 2016 1:12 PM  

So even for those people who hate the Jews, consider them enemies, and want them all dead, it's just bad strategy.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros October 01, 2016 1:21 PM  

Even Anglin says "Gas The Kikes" is not a policy proposal, but a joke about how everybody who stands up for White interests is a genocidal maniac.

Blogger Aeoli Pera October 01, 2016 1:40 PM  

It's true that this is a great joke for pushing boundaries. Probably the people listening to this Brainstorm are also aware of this...I'm failing the other mind problem again. Still, there are people (with brains like mine) who need the joke explained from time to time.

Blogger Markku October 01, 2016 4:26 PM  

Well, I thought they meant it in the straightforward fashion and irony was just a cover. A canned response to the charge of hate speech. Google summary also describes Daily Stormer as "Pro-genocide" and apparently this is irony too, then. I mean, I wasn't shocked or anything, it was just eh, whatever, but obviously I wasn't going to attach MY name to anything like that.

Blogger praetorian October 01, 2016 5:59 PM  

Google summary also describes Daily Stormer as "Pro-genocide" and apparently this is irony too, then

Ambiguity is part of the shtick.

"Of course I don't want to gas the kikes. Gas the kikes. Only a faggot doesn't want to gas the kikes, are you a faggot? Of course I don't want to gas the kikes, I can't believe you'd believe that, lol. Sieg Heil, though, amirite?"

It's almost jewish humor, which might be the point.

Blogger Markku October 01, 2016 6:11 PM  

Yep, that's the way I had read it too. Everybody can project their own wishes on whether "kikes" should be "gassed" or not this way.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros October 01, 2016 7:38 PM  

The guy himself says that he's aping Saul Alinsky and deliberately refusing to moderate or nuance his rhetoric so he can leverage the lowest common denominator and help push the Overton Window rightwards enough so that necessary things like mass deportations of Mexicans can become allowed topics of discussion.

Of course, his own words imply that his words can't necessarily be taken at face value, so there's that.

Blogger Markku October 01, 2016 8:10 PM  

Right, but one needs to understand that someone who still has some attachment to the corporate world - even if you have your company you still need contractors and clients - won't associate his name with anything with taglines "Pro-genocide" or "Gas the kikes". It's not about cowardice, it's just that there is extremely little upside in it, and huge downsides.

This may be useful in whipping up the social rejects who have literally nothing to lose, but it needs to be understood that if this is the ONLY kind of project in existence, it will fail. The movement is not going to have much real influence, precisely because it consists almost exclusively of society's rejects. You need different projects to appeal to different people. In those projects you need to hold on to the things that Western Civilization can't survive without, like #14, but you can't say things only because they are offensive. Hence, Vox's list contains the Fourteen Words, but old Adolph doesn't get any love or high fives.

Blogger Markku October 01, 2016 8:28 PM  

Now, these words: "Vox Day is doing something weird with it" from Anglin imply to me that he genuinely doesn't understand it, instead of just reflexively rejecting it because it isn't his group.

"Alt-West" is genuinely a descriptive effort, not prescriptive. It's not rhetoric. In my circles, there are a small handful of people who are somewhat Alt-Whitish in that Alt-White things are very important to them, but they still don't talk like these people that we see. They are not pushing that subculture. All the rest are almost exactly the way Vox describes Alt-West. These groups are so different in their values and the way they talk, that they would NEVER voluntarily mix with each other. If you were to map their interpersonal connections into a graph, you would see two very striking groups, with only a few connections between them.

So, Alt-West absolutely is a thing. The only question that even comes close to being worth discussing is, is Alt-West SO different that its belonging to Alt-Right must be explicitly denied by those whom Vox calls Alt-White. They can try it, of course. We'll still be calling ourselves Alt-Right. There is absolutely no scenario in which we'll be giving up the term. But whether we will fight for this, or whether we'll just all be calling ourselves Alt-Right and ignoring the other group, is currently being decided.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros October 01, 2016 11:40 PM  

Markku wrote:Now, these words: "Vox Day is doing something weird with it" from Anglin imply to me that he genuinely doesn't understand it, instead of just reflexively rejecting it because it isn't his group.

Lol, probably. Although, I'm guessing a lot of the latter are also the former, you know?

But Anglin didn't even mention it until Vox took a swipe in his direction, or appeared to.

"Vox Day posted a blog yesterday attacking me for some reason (I’ve never said anything bad about the guy) [...]"

To my knowledge he hasn't so much as commented on the #AltRetard thing though, so it might have already blown over.

Blogger Markku October 01, 2016 11:51 PM  

Neither of these things is an attack, not Vox's nor Anglins. As far as I can tell, both have accurately described what they perceive the other to have done. I'm not saying Anglin shouldn't have written what he wrote, I just want to understand his position so that I can better predict his actions, or non-actions.

Blogger Pteronarcyd October 02, 2016 4:15 PM  

Just listened to the podcast; color me Alt West.

Anonymous Scotched earth October 07, 2016 4:53 AM  

Late in day but just listened to podcast. I don’t know if you’ll read this tardy comment, Vox, but wanted to remark on your passing mention of Scottish nationalism.

Few Scottish separatists are ethno-nationalists. Like the Irish republicans of WW1 who offered Ireland to the Kaiser (1) or of WW2 who prepared to welcome invading Nazi forces ‘as friends and liberators of the Irish people’ (2), they’re not nationalists at all, simply anti-English.

The Scottish National Party (SNP), who are the public face of Scottish separatism (with 54 (less 2, after two of their MPs resigned whip after police investigations of corruption, with a third MP now also being investigated but still a party member) of Scotland’s 59 seats at Westminster, and 63 of the 129 seats at Holyrood), are a Social Justice party, full members (or at least wannabe-members) of the Cathedral. They fervently support the EU, 3rd World immigration, feminism, LGBTQ, environmentalism, etc. You name an SJW belief, and I’ll find you it in the SNP manifesto or enacted by them into law; and if you engage Scottish separatists on social media, you’ll soon find them screaming ‘racist’, ‘bigot’, etc. if you allow the slightest opening, like expressing a concern about immigration or Islam (on a recent exchange, I baldly asked one, ‘So you enthusiastically endorse turning Scotland into Somalia-on-the-Clyde?’ His answer, ‘Why not.’). They are just Saltire-waving SJWs.

You’ll find little fertile soil for Alt-Right/White/West beliefs amongst Scottish separatists; but you have some decent prospects amongst us Unionists (British, not EU).

Also, remember that in the recent referendum on Scottish independence, 55% of the Scottish electorate voted to remain British (which was an electorate rigged by the SNP by reducing voting age to 16, denying Scottish servicemen serving outside of Scotland the vote and allowing EU citizens to vote; so the true figure of loyal Scots is likely nearer to 60%). And in terms of quality, the kind of people you would like beside you on the barricades—serving and ex-military—will be Unionists almost to a man. N.B. being proudly British does not make one any less of a proud Scot, any more than a proud Texan or Kentuckian is any less of a proud American.

(1) http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/inside-the-gpo-in-1916-desmond-fitzgerald-s-eyewitness-account-1.2580371
(2) http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/oh-heres-to-adolph-hitler-the-ira-and-the-nazis/

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