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Wednesday, September 28, 2016

Is Syria the USA's Syracuse?

Why the USA is now actively aiding ISIS in Syria:
To grasp what’s really going on behind the endless recriminations, we need to understand that the Obama administration has abandoned its original plan to oust Syrian President Bashar al Assad, and moved on to Plan B; partitioning the country in a way that establishes a separate Sunni state where US troops will be based and where vital pipelines will be built to transfer natural gas from Qatar to the EU.

This ambitious plan is more than a redrawing of the Middle East and a pivot to Asia. It is a critical lifeline to a country whose economic prospects are progressively dimming, whose credit card is maxed out, and who is counting on a Hail Mary pass in Syria to save itself from cataclysmic economic collapse and ruination. Washington must succeed in Syria because, well, because it must, because the red ink has finally penetrated the pinewood hull and is fast filling the galley. A defeat in the Middle East could be the straw that broke the camel’s back, the tipping point in the agonizingly-protracted unipolar-new-world-order experiment. In other words, it’s Syria or bust.
There is a long tradition of democratic empires failing as a result of unnecessary military adventures, dating back to the Athenian disaster in Syracuse. It's much too soon to tell, but the continuing US failure in Syria does tend to smack of a potential turning point with regards to the imperial USA.

Note for the historical ignorati: before you start arguing that the USA cannot be an empire  despite its military occupation of more than 70 countries around the world because democracy, I suggest you read about the Athenian empire.

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116 Comments:

Blogger M. Bibliophile September 28, 2016 11:35 AM  

I hadn't made that comparison myself, but it's apt. Recall also that the failure in Syracuse was caused in no small part by the Athenians exiling their best because he was a jerk who made them uncomfortable and adhering to stupid ideas because they were, for the time, politically and religiously correct.

Very apt indeed.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis September 28, 2016 11:36 AM  

Does a Trump election significantly change that math? After all Trump has openly talked about cooperating with Russia in the region which would be a major shit from our modus operendi for the last two decades.

Blogger J Van Stry September 28, 2016 11:42 AM  

Hopefully Trump will remove us from that very stupid entanglement.

Blogger dc.sunsets September 28, 2016 11:43 AM  

All geopolitics to me is just window dressing to hide the actual program, which is (largely hereditary) dynasties who own the backbone of energy exploration, recovery and distribution in the world using the world's governments (and their military might) to maintain those families' control of the stuff that moves the modern world.

Behind every single conflict is a gas pipeline, an oil field or something similar.

Anonymous Psychedelic Cat Hair September 28, 2016 11:43 AM  

@2 Given that Obama tried the same thing recently and the Joint Chiefs balked at the idea, I wouldn't hold my breath about cooperation with Russia...not without a bunch of forced retirements at the flag rank level.

Blogger dc.sunsets September 28, 2016 11:44 AM  

And China sits back patiently while the West squanders its way to ruin.

Those East Asians sure ain't stupid.

Anonymous St. Cecilia September 28, 2016 11:45 AM  

The writer doesn't make the case, or even try to, that failure in Syria would mean anything more than - failure in Syria. What if we defeated the domestic environuts instead? Wouldn't that be more important for American living standards?

Anonymous Terrahawk September 28, 2016 11:45 AM  

That makes the Russians the Spartans who rise again after their initial defeat in the war. There are a lot of similarities.

If Trump can actually achieve a reasonable understanding with the Russians it would be good. But I fear the powers-that-bill will initiate a war if it looks like Trump is going to win.

Blogger residentMoron September 28, 2016 11:46 AM  

Hell, just not giving any more guns and air support to isis would make a major difference in the near term future of the Middle East.

Will Trump be able to reign in the war party, AND survive doing so?

That's the 6.4 trillion dollar question, ain't it?

Anonymous User September 28, 2016 11:46 AM  

This is sheer wishful thinking and doomsaying. The American empire will lumber on regardless of whether Obama's donors get their pipeline.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 28, 2016 11:50 AM  

Note for the historical ignorati: before you start arguing that the USA cannot be an empire despite its military occupation of more than 70 countries around the world because muh democracy!, I suggest you read about the Athenian empire.

FIFY.

Someone correct me but wasn't this whole Qatar to EU natgas pipeline originally conceived to undercut the existing natgas pipelines from Russia? Because Evil Empire? So the whole premise is just a wee bit moot?

This whole Springtime for Arabs has totally failed. Whoever produced it should be in jail. Don't get me started on the writer.

Blogger Johnny September 28, 2016 11:51 AM  

Modern war is so expensive that it is unusual to get a financial return, thus that is unlikely to be the motive. The real deal is that the pipeline would weaken Russia's ability to hold Europe hostage to Russia's energy supply. That is why the Russian's are going at it with energy. It is not an economic thing, it is a geopolitical thing.

Blogger dc.sunsets September 28, 2016 11:51 AM  

America floats multibillion dollar aircraft carrier battlegroups.
China floats a few cheap diesel-electric subs (surfacing one right behind a carrier once as a very prominent "fuck you" middle finger, I might add.)

Remember how Reagan's "defense buildup" supposedly caused the USSR to bankrupt itself trying to keep up? The USA is already bankrupt, having allowed one industry after another (military, medical, FIRE, etc.) arise to consume more than the entire country produces.

China, for all the idiotic problems of its own, doesn't hold a candle to the many-armed over-reach of Uncle Sam in every direction of the compass. When your rulers come to believe their own Unlimited Resources Public Relations, there is no limit to the number of Syracuse Expeditions to be undertaken. Hell, we're still PAYING for the Spanish American War, and let's not get started on the War On Poverty....

Blogger buwaya puti September 28, 2016 11:53 AM  

The economic drivers of this speculation arent clear at all. How would the US benefit directly from a NG pipeline from Quatar? Its not US gas.
And more, its not clear to me that it would not be cheaper to ship LNG than to mess with a constant state of war between NG-supplying national coalitions.
As for European economies, there is a heck of a lot they could do to get off the Russian NG tit, dumping the stupid environmental hysteria would solve most of it. Their problems are self-imposed results of rich-people neuroses.

Anonymous VFM #6306 September 28, 2016 11:53 AM  

Trump would have to withdraw us from Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Central Africa, Brazil, Argentina, Afghanistan, Korea, Taiwan, Japan and Germany just to get a start on curtailing the madness.

He's not going to do that. Syria would be a happy start, however.

Anonymous BGKB September 28, 2016 11:53 AM  

US sailors are getting TRANNY TRAINING just in time.

All geopolitics... hereditary) dynasties who own the backbone of energy exploration, recovery and distribution

No wonder they hate America First.

Anonymous genericviews September 28, 2016 11:54 AM  

In other words, it’s Syria or bust.

That's just stupid. There is nothing going on in Syria that is of any interest to America whatsoever. 99% of Americans don't even know which side we are on. The only reason Americans should care about Syria is that it is an undeclared war that committed American blood and treasure, because of the avarice of one woman. And she is running for president.

America could easily afford to simply ignore Syria and be better off for it. We could also easily ignore Iraq, Iran, Russia and China. The only countries we can't ignore are the ones shipping their poor huddled masses to our shores.

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 28, 2016 11:55 AM  

The sooner the utterly wicked and corrupt Banana Empire collapses the better. As for those who don its uniforms and obey its wantonly evil orders without resistance - they are not innocent. The fact that they are too stupid and clueless to figure it out at this late stage does little to mitigate their crime.

Blogger pyrrhus September 28, 2016 11:57 AM  

@12 Syria is a Russian ally, and provides a warm weather port for Russian ships.The pipeline is a factor, but the primary point is that Yeltsin abandoned Russian ally Serbia to Clinton's illegal bombing, and Yeltsin isn't around any more, nor are any of his allies. Putin will not let Assad go down, and the Russian conventional military is much more than a match for the US, especially when it's in Putin's back yard, and the Chinese are on Russia's side as well...

Anonymous Philalethes September 28, 2016 11:57 AM  

But... but...

"Free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction." - George W. Bush, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, Oct. 3, 2003

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 28, 2016 12:05 PM  

VFM #6306 wrote:Trump would have to withdraw us from Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Central Africa, Brazil, Argentina, Afghanistan, Korea, Taiwan, Japan and Germany just to get a start on curtailing the madness.

He's not going to do that. Syria would be a happy start, however.


Provided the puppets on Soros' strings running the show at present don't start a full-blown war first. This all smacks of some desperation on their part.

Anonymous Minack September 28, 2016 12:08 PM  

Excellent comparison. One of my favorite books is History of the Peloponnesian War.

"Next winter the whole of Hellas turned immediately against Athens. Those who had not been allied with either side thought, even though they were not asked, they ought not to keep out of the war any longer and should go against the Athenians of their own accord, since the Athenians, in the view of each state, would have gone against them if they had been successful in Sicily..." -Thucydides

Iran certainly knows they're next if Assad falls. Russia too. American imperial hubris has shown that no country on Earth is safe if the oligarchs feel like spreading a little democracy. It's obvious that China smells blood in the water already.

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2016/09/27/duterte-cozies-china/

Blogger pyrrhus September 28, 2016 12:10 PM  

@17 Syria is madness, and risks escalating into war, even nuclear war. But America is ruled by Madmen....

Blogger Were-Puppy September 28, 2016 12:11 PM  

Is it possible this is to benefit Saudis more than US?
They have bought most of our government off -

Anonymous fop September 28, 2016 12:13 PM  

Hopefully Trump will remove us from that very stupid entanglement.

Bahahaha!

Wait... that was sarcasm right?

Blogger Mr.MantraMan September 28, 2016 12:13 PM  

I always thought Bush the Younger was our Julian the Apostate.

A strong leader could have made the case that Gazprom sucks split Syria from them build pipeline, but NO they had to rely on the mean girls clique from high school and here we are today playing cutesy with Russia.

FTR just a coincidence that the MH-17 report came out today and it points to Russia.

Anonymous Casey September 28, 2016 12:14 PM  

I would guess that such a pipeline would require constant maintenance.

Blogger GAHCindy September 28, 2016 12:22 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Northern Observer September 28, 2016 12:22 PM  

"It is a critical lifeline... a Hail Mary pass in Syria to save itself from cataclysmic economic collapse and ruination"

How does winning in Syria accomplish that?

Anonymous VFM #7916 September 28, 2016 12:26 PM  

@25 Naturally. Given the propaganda nowadays, I reject that report without reading it. Ukrainians have the BUK, and they were the ones fielding it.

If they had released it immediately after the shootdown, with all the photographic evidence, it would have pointed to the Ukrainians.

But we could not have that, since the US was supporting the Ukrainians.

Blogger GFR September 28, 2016 12:28 PM  

@6
.
"And China sits back patiently while the West squanders its way to ruin.

Those East Asians sure ain't stupid."
.
Which is why china is feuding with Japan, South Korea, the Phillipines, Taiwan and Vietnam over the Spratly islands and the Senkakus. Because East Asians aren't stupid...

Blogger GFR September 28, 2016 12:30 PM  

Please explain how a pipeline between Qatar and Europe will rescue the US economically..

Blogger Basil Makedon September 28, 2016 12:31 PM  

Syracuse was the harbinger of the fall of the Athenian Empire, but it wasn't a stupid idea. If Alcibiades kept command of the expedition, given his energy, inventiveness and success later in the war I expect that they would have pulled it off. It was a close run thing once Demosthenes was sent there and his night attack almost succeeded. Syracuse as a base and under the control of Athens would have doomed Sparta. Anyway, if... People will be arguing about the Syracuse expedition for as long as Western Civ exists.

Personally, I doubt the pipeline theory. Keeping Gazprom from holding it over the EU is, or should be, a strategic goal. However, there are other pipeline routes that would not need to travel through Syria. Proposals for LNG terminals in Athens have been around for awhile, which would neatly bypass Syria and Turkey.

No, I rather think that Obama is pulled by his do-gooder subordinates (Samantha Powers), his lack of conception of US strategic interests and also his demonstrable cultural and sympathies for islamism.

Blogger GFR September 28, 2016 12:32 PM  

Please explain how a pipeline between Qatar and Europe will rescue the US economically..

Anonymous Credo in Unum Deum September 28, 2016 12:33 PM  

Here's a foreign policy idea we haven't tried yet:

We sit back, do nothing, and let the region go to shit.



Anyone have any objections to that idea?

Blogger Leo Littlebook in Shenzhen September 28, 2016 12:35 PM  

It would be the change we've all hoped for.

History doesn't repeat, but it lisps.

Blogger VFM #7634 September 28, 2016 12:38 PM  

I wonder if pointing to Syracuse isn't a bit much. The Athenians suffered huge casualties which directly caused them to lose the war by making it impossible to man their empire.

Which is why china is feuding with Japan, South Korea, the Phillipines, Taiwan and Vietnam over the Spratly islands and the Senkakus. Because East Asians aren't stupid...

@30 GFR
China still outnumbers all those countries in population, and if you exclude Japan, GDP as well. A bit different case than, say, Germany in WW2.

Anonymous ZhukovG September 28, 2016 12:40 PM  

A couple possibilities come to mind.

The most likely is that we just want to use the pipeline to further isolate Russia while doing grave damage to its economy. The goal would be ousting Putin's government and hoping we can put someone more like Yeltsin in charge.

Another possibility is that we really do intend to start WWIII. We assume it will stay conventional because MAD. But, we have nervous NATO allies that depend on Russian gas. We can ship LNG as a temporary band aid, but showing we can secure a new pipeline route would give them more confidence for the long term.

Time is not on the West's side. The Western economy is close to collapse. Donald Trumps warnings seem like those of a man who doesn't want to be blamed for the mess he may have no choice but to preside over.

Also Putin's conventional and strategic military strength grows each year. Russia has reactivated the 1st Guards Tank Army among other preparations.

So if Hillary wins it may be USA, NATO and Japan vs. Russia, China and Iran in a war to hide and solve the West's economic woes.

If Donald wins, we may just have to deal with biggest economic depression in history and a possible collapse of the USA.

Deo Vindice

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr September 28, 2016 12:41 PM  

Given the Clinton corruption track record, one wonders who's paying the bribes to steer the Obama regime's policies.

Blogger Shimshon September 28, 2016 12:41 PM  

The geopolitical realignment that as already occurred is staggering. But what's to come as a result of follies like Iraq and Syria will make it seem trivial.

Blogger lowercaseb September 28, 2016 12:43 PM  

hey there...

Any recommendation on where to start with the history of the Athenian empire? I'm ignorant about the history of Greece outside of the basics of world history, and I am needing to get a good plane commute book this week.

Blogger Mountain Man September 28, 2016 12:45 PM  

You know the end has arrived when the "world's superpower "has a chief diplomat to the UN named - Samantha Power.
You hear the name and all that comes to mind is : SJW mid- wit

Anonymous BGKB September 28, 2016 12:48 PM  

OT: This might work out well for some ILK if they can get it done before the collapse. I would recommend stocking up on "fish" antibiotics before the election regardless. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/stanford-pay-attend-business-school-192900813.html

A new fellowship at the Stanford Graduate School of Business, one of the top ranked business schools, covers tuition and fees for MBA students. But the program comes with a catch: Students must be willing to take a job in the Midwest.

Blogger Mountain Man September 28, 2016 12:49 PM  

"And China sits back patiently while the West squanders its way to ruin."

.....all the while laughing at how our geopolitical goal of building a pipeline to cut off Russia's revenue stream (Gazprom) - literally and figuratively blows up in our face.

Blogger Jeff Wood September 28, 2016 12:52 PM  

@26

"I would guess that such a pipeline would require constant maintenance."

Precisely, Casey. This pipeline will not happen in the next twenty or thirty years.

There is more going on, and the Syracuse thought is very much on point.

Blogger Lazarus September 28, 2016 12:52 PM  

lowercaseb wrote:Any recommendation on where to start with the history of the Athenian empire?

Vox did a course on it using the Landmark Thucydides. (see upper left- voxiversity)

most interesting.

Blogger Travis September 28, 2016 12:54 PM  

Northern Observer wrote:"It is a critical lifeline... a Hail Mary pass in Syria to save itself from cataclysmic economic collapse and ruination"

How does winning in Syria accomplish that?


Nice petrodollar. It'd be a shame if something happened to it...

There will be consequences if the gulf states don't get their way.

Blogger Mountain Man September 28, 2016 12:54 PM  

"Time is not on the West's side. The Western economy is close to collapse. Donald Trumps warnings seem like those of a man who doesn't want to be blamed for the mess he may have no choice but to preside over. "

Nearly eight months ago when Trump was beginning to gain traction some commenters over at Zero Hedge were theorizing that Trump knew the financial end was near and figured he might as well be King of the Shit Pile while the whole shithouse goes up in flames. At the time - it seemed like the musing of a gloom and doom enthusiast. Daily - it seems more plausible.

Blogger Mountain Man September 28, 2016 1:00 PM  

"What if we defeated the domestic environuts instead? Wouldn't that be more important for American living standards?"

As we write the Feds (USFWS) are embarked on a project to purchase 7.1 million acres of land within the four state region of Mass,CT,VT and NH. If completed it will result in 75 % of the land base being under government ownership.
They use off budget money that is generated via royalties collected by the NMMS for domestic offshore oil drilling.

Blogger Aeoli Pera September 28, 2016 1:02 PM  

That move is an admission of desperation and impotence.

Blogger SciVo September 28, 2016 1:03 PM  

We sit back, do nothing, and let the region go to shit.

A penny saved is a penny earned. And failing to help people would be a clear moral step up from creating an environment where sociopaths can rape, torture and murder en masse.

Say what you will about Saddam Hussein, but he never would have tolerated ISIS. If he were still in charge, none of us would ever have heard of them before they ceased to exist.

Blogger Mountain Man September 28, 2016 1:05 PM  

@50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cpiPFkL0QY

Blogger macengr September 28, 2016 1:07 PM  

Everyone talking about Syria and whether or not it's geopolitically important - that's not the point. Syracuse ruined Athens because of Imperial Overreach. She lost a good amount of her best men and her fleet and money. Syracuse wasn't important to Athens either. I think that's the point VD is trying to make - we are overreaching everywhere and the misadventure in Syria would be the last straw.

Blogger residentMoron September 28, 2016 1:09 PM  

GFR,

It's not about Syria or the fucking pipeline per se.

It's about how empires exist and persist.

If once tge American empire ever lets go, withdraws in ignominious defeat, then the empire falls shortly thereafter.

See also, USSR, Afghanistan & Perestroika, or the Brexit panic amondst the globalists.

If one succeeds in escaping their grasp, they cannot stop the ensuing stampede.

Forgot about the fucking pipeline.

Anonymous Joe Blowe September 28, 2016 1:09 PM  

There is only one reason the USA is in Syria: (((Eretz Israel)))

Blogger SciVo September 28, 2016 1:11 PM  

Hypothesis: We are getting Yadhizi girls raped, tortured and murdered in order to help Soros throw a temper tantrum over Putin stopping the Jewish bankster looting of Russia's hard assets.

Blogger Aeoli Pera September 28, 2016 1:19 PM  

GFR wrote:Please explain how a pipeline between Qatar and Europe will rescue the US economically..

Do you understand how a fiat currency typically works?

Anonymous Minack September 28, 2016 1:19 PM  

macengr wrote:Everyone talking about Syria and whether or not it's geopolitically important - that's not the point. Syracuse ruined Athens because of Imperial Overreach. She lost a good amount of her best men and her fleet and money. Syracuse wasn't important to Athens either. I think that's the point VD is trying to make - we are overreaching everywhere and the misadventure in Syria would be the last straw.

And the Athenian catastrophe gave Sparta increased resolve to fully prosecute the war while Athenian allies and tributary states fell away, weakening Athens further. It also helped to persuade the Persian king to finance the Spartan navy that would eventually strangle Athens.

Blogger Cogitans Iuvenis September 28, 2016 1:24 PM  

@36

Population is irrelevant when it comes to high technology naval ware fare. Japan has one of the most proficient navies in the word that is specifically positioning itself to combat China, and in the event of a war, the aquatic terrain favors Japan and the allies not China. China knows this which is why they are trying to "unsinkable carriers".

Blogger macengr September 28, 2016 1:27 PM  

@58

Don't forget the ship-killer missiles that China has been working on, as well.

Anonymous Minack September 28, 2016 1:32 PM  

What infuriates me is the opposition to Obama on Syria is mostly republican permahawks crying over the fact that Obama didn't go all in after the chemical weapons/red line BS. The option to just stay out completely was never even on the table.

Blogger Were-Puppy September 28, 2016 1:33 PM  

@30 GFR

Which is why china is feuding with Japan, South Korea, the Phillipines, Taiwan and Vietnam over the Spratly islands and the Senkakus. Because East Asians aren't stupid...
---

I look at Spratly Island in Google Earth, and it is converted into an air base with a bunch of large ships floating around it. There is one rectangular building near the runway that has the giant red background with the yellow star in the middle.

Blogger cheddarman September 28, 2016 1:37 PM  

Follow the money, people!

If the pipeline goes from the Persian Gulf States and Saudi Arabia to Europe, the Europeans will pay for their natural gas in U.S. dollars.

This helps keep the U.S. dollar as the worlds reserve currency.

It helps the banksters, not the American people.

Blogger dc.sunsets September 28, 2016 1:39 PM  

Is it possible this is to benefit Saudis more than US?
They have bought most of our government off -


And who stands behind those goat-herding primitives?

Hint: The Queen of England is BP's largest shareholder, of so I read. The more things change, the more they....

Blogger HonorLiving September 28, 2016 1:39 PM  

If the US situation depends on what happens in Syria then I would argue we can already conclude that it is over as an empire. This degree of fragility is not sustainable, and we've already seen that the US is fragile on other fronts as well. Socially, demographically and financially, things could go south at any moment, and probably will.

Anonymous Athor Pel September 28, 2016 1:44 PM  

"33. Blogger GFR September 28, 2016 12:32 PM
Please explain how a pipeline between Qatar and Europe will rescue the US economically..
"


It won't rescue it. It will only allow the game to go on for a bit longer.

The petrodollar is a system. The middle east oil nations agreed to only sell natgas/oil for dollars in order to gain US military protection. This helps ensure a global demand for dollars and a demand for US military presence. Bankers win and defense companies win.

If more oil, well, petroleum based energy really, is bought and sold using currencies other than dollars then the demand for dollars goes down.

Qatar selling more natgas/oil in Europe means more dollar demand.

Russian natgas/oil likely doesn't generate the same dollar demand since Russia doesn't require a buyer of their natgas/oil to use dollars.

This is the shortened nuts and bolts explanation.

The morale part was covered by several others here and will likely end up being more important.

Anybody gets tired of being told what to do all the time. And the US State Department at the behest of certain interests has been telling a whole lot of people/nations what to do for a very long time.

Blogger dc.sunsets September 28, 2016 1:47 PM  

@30 Which is why china is feuding with Japan, South Korea, the Phillipines, Taiwan and Vietnam over the Spratly islands and the Senkakus. Because East Asians aren't stupid...

Well, stupidity is clearly amplified by power, and pretty much every nation-state is ruled by megalomaniacs.

For me, the only facts that matter are these:
1. Nuclear weapons exist.
2. The means to deliver them to where my family lives exist.
3. Miscalculations among politicians running allied nations have led to wars no one wanted.
4. Given enough time, this insures that a nuclear war is inevitable.

Everything else is just an argument about which team's pitcher has a better curve ball.

Blogger dc.sunsets September 28, 2016 1:52 PM  

And the US State Department at the behest of certain interests has been telling a whole lot of people/nations what to do for a very long time.

Since before my biological great-grandfather lost control of Standard Oil due to being the key figure in the Teapot Dome Scandal. He was hired by John D. Rockefeller, Sr originally, rose to Chairman and was ousted by Rockefeller, Jr.

Dominion of a few people over petroleum has been the backbone of most relevant conflicts the world over since the late 19th century. That, and dominion over banking probably account for 98% of all war. I wonder if ideology (political or otherwise) ever actually animates much at all, but instead serves as a useful distraction/rationalization so the Key Players stay hidden.

Blogger Mountain Man September 28, 2016 2:06 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Mountain Man September 28, 2016 2:09 PM  

"Well, stupidity is clearly amplified by power, and pretty much every nation-state is ruled by megalomaniacs. "

...and the megalomaniacs know Nuclear war is on the horizon and are preparing accordingly:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/bunker-builders-anticipate-lucrative-trumpocalypse-932748

Only its not a Turmpocalypse they're preparing for - contrary to what the mid wit writing the article might think.

Blogger allyn71 September 28, 2016 2:16 PM  

Didn't Vox just do a post on binary thinking. All of you calling for an explanation on how a Qatari pipeline helps the US are too short for this ride.

Ask yourself these questions:

What is the largest export of the US?

What is the most important commodity in the world priced in?

In other words, "The Spice must flow".

Blogger Servant of the Chief September 28, 2016 2:17 PM  

But Vox! Amurica can't be an empire it doesn't have an emperor hurrdurr republic!

Apparently Rome only became an Empire after Augustus, lets just ignore the conquest of Spain, Hellas, the Balkans and parts of North Africa, those don't count because the guys in charge didn't have a crown.

Blogger JWM September 28, 2016 2:22 PM  

Every move obama has made in the Middle East has had the same end effect- to destabilize the ruling government, and create a power vacuum that gets filled by the jihad. The exception being Iran. With Iran he's doing everything he can to empower the mullahs, and push the region toward nuclear war. Which will only aid the jihad.

JWM

Blogger dc.sunsets September 28, 2016 2:34 PM  

@69 that decommissioned missile silo is looking more attractive by the day.
http://www.missilebases.com/properties

The problem is always water seepage and excess humidity.
Decisions, decisions....

Blogger Basil Makedon September 28, 2016 2:46 PM  

Even if it were all about pipelines and propping up the petrodollar system, Syria is not a necessary part of that objective. A pipeline need not go to Syria or Turkey to get to Europe. It could *gasp* terminate in Israel having only traversed Qatar and the KSA with the NG could be shipped to Athens via LNG container ships.

I remember reading that the Israeli and Greek governments were discussing this option a couple years ago following the find of huge NG deposits offshore of Israel (I think it was called Leviathan).

Blogger Basil Makedon September 28, 2016 2:46 PM  

Even if it were all about pipelines and propping up the petrodollar system, Syria is not a necessary part of that objective. A pipeline need not go to Syria or Turkey to get to Europe. It could *gasp* terminate in Israel having only traversed Qatar and the KSA with the NG could be shipped to Athens via LNG container ships.

I remember reading that the Israeli and Greek governments were discussing this option a couple years ago following the find of huge NG deposits offshore of Israel (I think it was called Leviathan).

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 28, 2016 3:03 PM  

Mountain Man wrote:"Time is not on the West's side. The Western economy is close to collapse. Donald Trumps warnings seem like those of a man who doesn't want to be blamed for the mess he may have no choice but to preside over. "

Nearly eight months ago when Trump was beginning to gain traction some commenters over at Zero Hedge were theorizing that Trump knew the financial end was near and figured he might as well be King of the Shit Pile while the whole shithouse goes up in flames. At the time - it seemed like the musing of a gloom and doom enthusiast. Daily - it seems more plausible.


This is actually a variant on Barnhardt's theory of Trump (one where Trump actually wants to win). Barnhardt's theory (for those who are unaware of it) is that Trump basically plans to fall before Lizard Queen at the end of the race and spend the next few years increasing the value of his brand by saying (see, if only you'd have voted for me). Given the behavior of the globalist cartel - of which the present topic is an interesting example - I think Barnhardt is wrong and that Trump is really wanting to win. It would truly be the most thankless job on the planet - as the Banana Empire's overextension and collapse is not reversible absent power of a real God-Emperor (and even with those the notion that we could pull back from the brink is not very credible) - so the reason he wants the job is an interesting speculation.

The thing is that Trump is one person holding one office. Look at the congressional races (which nobody pays attention to). Paul Ryan won, as did the minions of the cuckservative establishment. Look for major betrayals in the 'lame-dick' session after the election: approval of Housenigga Hussein's (((replacement))) for Scalia, TPP, and heaven only knows what else - maybe even the first congressional declaration of war since 1941 against Syria and Russia. The GOP is completely bogus - an "opposition" party who has literally abided by a consent decree issued in 1983 to not resist blatant vote-fraud carried out in dindu-majority districts - a number of whom have literally provided more votes than registered voters by significant numbers. So, even if Trump is sworn in on January 20, he'll be facing a congress, bureaucracy and judicial kritarchy to thwart anything he might attempt to do. Even so, if he appoints the right people he could do considerable damage to the machine in place. Stopping the damned wars to benefit globalist elites would be a great place to start.

Anonymous Gen. Kong September 28, 2016 3:19 PM  

macengr wrote:@58

Don't forget the ship-killer missiles that China has been working on, as well.


They would be helpless against the great Pink fleet's new Hank Johnson class of super carrier, which travels upside down and has a very low profile, like Guam does.

Blogger tublecane September 28, 2016 3:46 PM  

@1-I assume you mean Alcibiades, but he was a proponent of the disastrous Sicilian Expedition.

Blogger Tom Kratman September 28, 2016 3:47 PM  

Probably isn't Syracuse, no. Syracuse, to Athens, was a major national effort; indeed perhaps the largest single national effort they ever undertook, and all done to massive popular acclaim. The disaster that could not be recovered from in less than forty or so years. Conversely, our efforts in Syria, if "Effort" is quite the word, is trivial. Our commitment is tiny. All that's really at stake is a bit of prestige from a president that no one really expects great military achievements from. Oh, and giving that tranzi Hibernian twat Samantha Powers ulcers, which is always worth doing.

Blogger tublecane September 28, 2016 3:59 PM  

There really isn't any analogy to be made between the U.S. in Syria and the Sicilian Expedition, except that the U.S. and Athens both have/had empires, Syria and Sicily are faraway distractions, and intervention is a losing proposition for both. But that's not much.

People compared the U.S. in Vietnam to Athens in Sicily, too, and at least that was a little closer. Because Vietnam was a massive undertaking, in men, money, and prestige. Syria is not. We were also fighting a Cold War at the time, which was a lot closer to the background to Sicilian Expedition--the Peloponnesian War--than whatever it is we have going on in the world today. Which at best is the hope of a new Cold War with Russia.

Disaster against Syracuse hampered the Athenians, making their ultimate defeat in the war against the Spartans more likely. To lose in Syria wouldn't mean very much to us. Athens lost a good portion of its fighting men, in hoplites and rowers, an entire fleet, a small fortune, prestige, and faith in itself. We stand to lose money, and that's about it. We don't believe in ourselves, our prestige is in the toilet, and our manpower won't be affected much one way or another.

Blogger tublecane September 28, 2016 4:04 PM  

@53-The U.S. has already let go and withdrawn in defeat, yet it persists. So I have no idea what you're talking about.

Blogger tublecane September 28, 2016 4:07 PM  

@40-Read Thucydides' "History of the Peloponnesian War." Everyone should.

Anonymous Mr. Rational September 28, 2016 4:12 PM  

St. Cecilia wrote:What if we defeated the domestic environuts instead? Wouldn't that be more important for American living standards?
They need to be defeated left AND right, because the right still believes that polluting fossil carbon is our future.  The truth is that coal, oil and gas still leave us with a scarcity economy.  They can't deliver the kind of abundance found in e.g. Iceland, where extravagant amounts of geothermal heat let them grow bananas next to glaciers.

Only nuclear power can do that.

If you look at the people who want that pipeline built from Qatar to Europe, you'll find the very ones financing the Greens who are making it all necessary in the first place.  Uranium would kill Islam if we would only use it, and without a single bomb.

The Arab royal families know this.

Blogger jandolin September 28, 2016 4:19 PM  

JWM

STFU. Spread you crap in Israel.

Blogger JimR September 28, 2016 4:32 PM  

@63

Lizzie's not even in the top ten.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/7802978/BP-its-10-biggest-shareholders.html

Anonymous VFM #9617 September 28, 2016 4:32 PM  

Heh, going over Thucydides again with fresh eyes I notice the uselessness of the non-aggression principle was pointed out 2,500 years ago by the Corinthians:

your ideal of fair dealing is based on the principle that, if you do not injure others, you need not risk your own fortunes in preventing others from injuring you. Now you could scarcely have succeeded in such a policy even with a neighbour like yourselves; but in the present instance, as we have just shown, your habits are old-fashioned as compared with theirs.

Blogger B.J. September 28, 2016 4:56 PM  

I'll happily send Obama to Elba.

Anonymous CloseHauled September 28, 2016 4:57 PM  

This thread goes along with the globalist thread.

My theory is that Russia needs to be bankrupted to force it into the global fold.

Gazprom is like 10% of Russia's GDP. Syria is about destroying Gazprom.

Like missile defense systems in Poland, overthrowing democratically pro-Russian Ukrainian government, and Syria are all related.

They are to make Russia say "uncle" and take it place under the dominion of those same Bolsheviks that tried to destroy her with Communism.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 28, 2016 5:06 PM  

SciVo wrote:Hypothesis: We are getting Yadhizi girls raped, tortured and murdered in order to help Soros throw a temper tantrum over Putin stopping the Jewish bankster looting of Russia's hard assets.
Yes, very clear statement of the situation.

I would only add French, Swedish, German and Italian girls, and boys, to the list.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 28, 2016 5:11 PM  

St. Cecilia wrote:The writer doesn't make the case, or even try to, that failure in Syria would mean anything more than - failure in Syria. What if we defeated the domestic environuts instead? Wouldn't that be more important for American living standards?
True, for 99.999% of America, failure in Syruia would make literally no difference. For those 200-1000 other people though, it could mean billions of dollars, or ruin.

And our government does their bidding.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 28, 2016 5:15 PM  

genericviews wrote:. There is nothing going on in Syria that is of any interest to America whatsoever. 99% of Americans don't even know which side we are on.
we're on all 4 sides.
America is everybody's pal!.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Deplorable Cents September 28, 2016 5:16 PM  

Meanwhile Turkey is finishing a fence along its southern border to contain migrants and Saudi is building a loong fence on its border with Iraq.

All the kool kidz get to have a fence on their border. Can we have one, TOOOO?

Anonymous Carl the Forgotten One September 28, 2016 5:26 PM  

No doubt Israel would love to see Syria under Sunni rule in order to separate Hezbollah from Iran.

Blogger bob k. mando September 28, 2016 5:26 PM  

19. Philalethes September 28, 2016 11:57 AM
"Free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction." -


*class clown raises hand*

so ... does this mean that intercontinental, multi-megaton nuclear missiles are NOT 'weapons of mass destruction'?

so ... does this mean that all of the mustard and chlorine gassing that went on in WW1 didn't happen?

so ... does this mean that Dresden didn't get firebombed back to the Stone Age?

can we hang ALL of the Bush's as traitors?


38. Napoleon 12pdr September 28, 2016 12:41 PM
Given the Clinton corruption track record, one wonders who's paying the bribes to steer the Obama regime's policies.



yeah, people have been taking it as 'accepted wisdom' that Obama and the Clinton's hate each other.

now we find out that:
not only did Obama know about Hillary's off-the-books server from the get go
not only did Obama communicate with her on that server from the get go
Obama used a pseudonym when emailing Hillary.

which expresses a KNOWING and WILLFUL attempt to bypass the Law whilst communicating with Hillary on unsecure lines of communication ... as they exchange classified information.

Blogger tublecane September 28, 2016 5:31 PM  

@52-That's just it: losing in Syria wouldn't cause much grief in men, money, or materiel. So for it to be a "last straw," you pretty much have to argue that it is vitally important geopolitically. Otherwise, what's the big deal?

Blogger tweell September 28, 2016 5:31 PM  

Somewhat OT for those who want to read more about Sparta vs. Athens -

Thucydides is the primary source, Gutenberg provides a free download: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/7142

Victor Davis Hansen's treatment is pretty good IMHO. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1400060958/ref=pd_sim_14_3?ie=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1400060958&pd_rd_r=EPY4TVE6AKR4TXT2S6BT&pd_rd_w=iomon&pd_rd_wg=mHDrx&psc=1&refRID=EPY4TVE6AKR4TXT2S6BT

Blogger Tom Kratman September 28, 2016 5:37 PM  

Won't work. There is nobody stamping "TS-SCI" on anything who outranks Obama. He can, on his own say so, without appeal by anyone, declassify anything he wants to because he outranks everyone who might classify something. He has, in this particular, complete authority. And, moreover, he can delegate it to whomever he wants to.

Congress can, of course, cite X penalty for compromising of negligently handling classified material. It cannot make someone senior to the president.

Blogger Elder Son September 28, 2016 5:48 PM  

US Peace Council Representatives CONFRONT a hostile American press after visiting Syria, and learning that the American people are being lied to, grossly lied to.

Another bitch-slap for Ambassador Samantha Power

https://youtu.be/c8JppJyVxYU

Meanwhile - State Dept. Psychopath John Kirby Speaks Threatens Russia

“Extremist groups will continue to exploit the vacuums that are there in Syria to expand their operations, which could include attacks against Russian interests, perhaps even Russian cities. Russia will continue to send troops home in body bags, and will continue to lose resources, perhaps even aircraft,” John Kirby, the State Department's spokesperson, told reporters at Wednesday's press briefing.

https://www.rt.com/usa/360992-us-warns-russia-violence/

Anonymous Mr. Rational September 28, 2016 5:56 PM  

Northern Observer wrote:How does winning in Syria accomplish that?
It saves the fossil interests.  The USA is their puppet.

GFR wrote:Please explain how a pipeline between Qatar and Europe will rescue the US economically..
It rescues the Arab royals and the likes of XOM and Halliburton.  Huge construction and operating revenues.  Huge on-going revenue stream for decades.

This is why uranium has to be kept out.  Enriched uranium costs less than $1/million BTU.  You can't even liquefy natural gas for less than about 3x that much.

Credo in Unum Deum wrote:We sit back, do nothing, and let the region go to shit.

Anyone have any objections to that idea?

If we do nothing, Europe becomes a Russian vassal territory.  If we let Europe go Gallic (energy-wise), it becomes independent.  Its economy must remain under control of elite globalist interests, and a nice, long gas pipeline from the ME is just the way to do that.

This is also why the Greens.  A nuclear-powered Europe doesn't care about gas, Russian or Arab.  That has to be prevented BAMN.

Blogger bob k. mando September 28, 2016 6:31 PM  

98. Tom Kratman September 28, 2016 5:37 PM
Won't work. There is nobody stamping "TS-SCI" on anything who outranks Obama.



i'm not asserting that anything will happen. the Republicans have already made clear, way back at Obama's first year, that they would not hold him to account for any action.

the only way to prosecute a sitting President is through Impeachment.

the Republicans won't even submit a plausible budget.

i'm just pointing out that
IF Obama 'hates' Hillary as much as everyone 'knows'
THEN prosecuting her for non-Obama classified communications would have been child's play.

my point is that Obama and Hillary have been on the same team aside from, possibly, the Presidential nomination eight years ago.

they may not love each other, but they're definitely working towards similar goals and they've each been helping the other.

makes me wonder how much is being funneled off of the Clinton Foundation into Obama's Swiss bank accounts.

Blogger tublecane September 28, 2016 6:51 PM  

@101-But everyone knows Obama and Clinton are on the same team. They are Democrats, aren't they? You have to posit something more significant than his justice department hasn't prosecuted her to justify the claim that their supposed feud is illusory.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan September 28, 2016 6:53 PM  

And the lawsuit bill just became law, oh tangled mess

Blogger Tom Kratman September 28, 2016 6:56 PM  

Impeachment, at least for that, would be illegitimate, too: "High crimes and misdemeanors." But a president using his inherent authority is not committing a crime or misdemeanor, high or otherwise, by declassfying something.

I suspect he does detest her at a personal level - there being so much there to detest - but is willing to put that aside to further "de revoluuuushun, baby."

Anonymous VFM 3061 “Chief Who Notice Things Make Chief Go 'Hmm'” September 28, 2016 7:14 PM  

@buwaya puti,
Economic incentives are crystal clear if you would dispense with your assumed premise that US politicians only act in interests of US population. If some billionaires wanted US war with Russia and/or income for Middle East, you don't need to bribe EVERY congressman and senator. Increase your cynicism up to eleven and it makes perfect sense. Like Joe Biden's son suddenly being in charge of Ukraine energy. They're not even TRYING to hide stuff like this, at this point.

Blogger clk September 28, 2016 7:23 PM  

"....but the continuing US failure in Syria does tend to smack of a potential turning point with regards to the imperial USA."

Not sure how we define failure here... 10000 to 1 ratio kills of enemy to us solders, driving back Isis from Iraq. Getting the Russians to spend money they dont have on a war in syria that they cant afford, having arabs focus on killing each other and keeping the middle east constantly at war.... not sure where the failure is....

Blogger CarlBrannen September 28, 2016 8:15 PM  

War is about economics. Look at what percentage the Syracuse disaster was for Athens and compare it to the US situation now. You'll find that the US is not being stressed in the least by war. Heck, military spending is only a fraction of US federal expenditures and is negligible when compared to GDP. And the US is a modern economy with huge amounts of surplus production. Athens was a semi-rural economy without much surplus. Not even comparable.

Like Athens, the US is militarily a maritime trading power and not a land power. Maritime powers lose their power when they lose control over the ocean. That's not even close to happening.

But unlike Athens, the US is also a continental power and continental powers are largely immune to seapower. Athens lost a great deal of their sea power advantage in the Syracuse adventure and they had nothing to back it up. The US isn't losing its sea power advantage and if it did, it is also a massive continental power (and economic power as well as cultural power).

The world is not close to seeing the end of US dominance. The US has a higher population than any country but India and China. Those two are the eventual rivals to the US but they still have to grow a great deal economically. But the US is more than just the US. But when you want to really estimate the power of the US you also have to include the other English speaking countries.

Even with an economic collapse (say the value of the dollar collapsing) the military strength of the US will remain. Countries with advanced economies simply do not become economic basket cases overnight. In fact, there are zero examples in history of advanced economies falling apart, except for being conquered militarily. Zero. A complete failure of the dollar might result in the US becoming a military dictatorship but it will still be an economic giant. The economic inertia of the big countries is yuge.

Blogger Daniel September 28, 2016 10:41 PM  

Because the us needs to control the currency the oil and gas is payed with

Blogger campbreeze September 28, 2016 11:05 PM  

In this analogy who would be the Melians?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 28, 2016 11:38 PM  

clk wrote:Not sure how we define failure here... 10000 to 1 ratio kills of enemy to us solders, driving back Isis from Iraq. Getting the Russians to spend money they dont have on a war in syria that they cant afford, having arabs focus on killing each other and keeping the middle east constantly at war.... not sure where the failure is....
You're thinking 2G war
in 4G war, fatalities don't matter so much, if the enemy can use those deaths to recruit more soldiers, more supporters, more money, more political support. !0K to 1 ratio and where are we in Iraq? Have we won? After 13 years and thousands of deaths, what have we actually gained?

in Syria we aren't even trying to win. We're playing 3 sides against the government, at the behest of the Qataris and the Israelis. The Russians are the only ones bringing modern warfare to the theater, and they, not we, are the ones kicking Isis' butt. Then again, since we set up Isis, and we supplied them and we funded them (thank you Senator McCain!), maybe we don't want to defeat our ostensible enemy.

Anyway, your statement doesn't make any sense unless you know what success looks like. Tell me what success looks like in Syria.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 29, 2016 12:16 AM  

Stupidity On Parade

600 troops head back to Iraq for Mosul offensive

Morons in DC threaten to sever bilateral ties with Russia over Syrian screwups

I still have a difficult time reading "Secretary of State John F. Kerry" without snickering.

Anonymous Clay September 29, 2016 12:23 AM  

Lord have mercy.

Are we still even talking about Syria?

Find me a bigger turd in the world...(sub-Saharan countries not included)

Syria doesn't have shit.

Anonymous Jack Amok September 29, 2016 1:06 AM  

...not without a bunch of forced retirements at the flag rank level.

Now, what was that phrase Trump was famous for uttering on his old T.V. show?

Here's a foreign policy idea we haven't tried yet:

We sit back, do nothing, and let the region go to shit.

Anyone have any objections to that idea?


Aside from pointing out the region already is shit, no, no objections at all.

Sit back, do nothing, and watch the region go to more shit. Sounds good to me. I'll shake up another Mai Tai.

Anonymous Clay September 29, 2016 1:17 AM  

Though I haven't heard it anywhere else, it appears we are sending 600 more "troops" to take out Mosul. (military.com)

Arabs, Persians can fight each other till the day we all die.

Perhaps there is an alternative.

Anonymous Clay September 29, 2016 11:01 AM  

A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents wrote:Stupidity On Parade

600 troops head back to Iraq for Mosul offensive

Morons in DC threaten to sever bilateral ties with Russia over Syrian screwups

I still have a difficult time reading "Secretary of State John F. Kerry" without snickering.




Sorry about that. I didn't see it.

Can I be Grand Marshall of the Parade?

Anonymous Sam J. September 30, 2016 2:12 AM  

You people are missing something about Alcibiades. Alcibiades was a psychopath. Hence the strong hatred towards him. It was Alcibiades that pushed the great idea of attacking Syracuse. The failed Syracuse attack was THE downfall of Athens. The same Alcibiades went from city to city in the ancient world. In Sparta he was more Spartan than the Spartans. Changing his chameleon skin every time he moved somewhere else and betraying everyone he came in contact with. Alcibiades killed Athens with risky schemes to glorify himself.

Story of Alcibiades

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Alcibiades*.html

What did Plutarch have to say about him.

"...He had, as they say, one power which transcended all others, and proved an implement of his chase for men: that of assimilating and adapting himself to the pursuits and lives of others, thereby assuming more violent changes than the chameleon. That animal, however, as it is said, is utterly unable to assume one colour, namely, white; but Alcibiades could associate with good and bad alike, and found naught that he could not imitate and practice. 5 In Sparta, he was all for bodily training, simplicity of life, and severity of countenance; in Ionia, for p65 luxurious ease and pleasure; in Thrace, for drinking deep; in Thessaly, for riding hard; and when he was thrown with Tissaphernes the satrap, he outdid even Persian magnificence in his pomp and lavishness. It was not that he could so easily pass entirely from one manner of man to another, nor that he actually underwent in every case a change in his real character; but when he saw that his natural manners were likely to be annoying to his associates, he was quick to assume any counterfeit exterior which might in each case be suitable for them..."

http://www.ancient.eu.com/Alcibiades/

One thing not widely known is King Agis of Sparta hated Alcibiades because Alcibiades had a child by the Kings wife.

I have a theory that the period of time for the downfall of Empires is related to how long it takes psychopaths to move up the ladder of leadership. If a way is not found to restrain them the country disintegrates.

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