ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2016 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Saturday, October 01, 2016

Empty-handed at the OK Corral

Not bringing a religion to a clash of civilizations is like not bringing a gun to a gunfight. Every major civilization has had its basis in a core religion.

Consider these three quotes from Sam Huntington's The Clash of Civilizations:

  1. The underlying problem for the West is not Islamic fundamentalism. It is Islam, a different civilization whose people are convinced of the superiority of their culture and are obsessed with the inferiority of their power. The problem for Islam is not the CIA or the U.S. Department of Defense. It is the West, a different civilization whose people are convinced of the universality of their culture and believe that their superior, if declining, power imposes on them the obligation to extend that culture throughout the world. These are the basic ingredients that fuel conflict between Islam and the West.
  2. Blood, language, religion, way of life, were what the Greeks had in common and what distinguished them from the Persians and other non-Greeks. Of all the objective elements which define civilizations, however, the most important usually is religion, as the Athenians emphasized. To a very large degree, the major civilizations in human history have been closely identified with the world’s great religions; and people who share ethnicity and language but differ in religion may slaughter each other, as happened in Lebanon, the former Yugoslavia, and the Subcontinent.
  3. Religion is a central defining characteristic of civilizations, and, as Christopher Dawson said, “the great religions are the foundations on which the great civilizations rest.” Of Weber’s five “world religions,” four—Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Confucianism—are associated with major civilizations. The fifth, Buddhism, is not.
Now, one can blithely try to wave away Huntington's civilizational perspective and his thesis, but considering how The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order was published in 1996 and has proven to be not merely far more insightful and predictive than Fukuyama's End of History thesis or any other conceptual model, one would have to be grossly ignorant to do so.

So, if we accept the idea that Western civilization and Islamic civilization are in conflict, what must we logically conclude from the three quotes provided?
  1. The decline of the West is the direct result of the decline of Christianity in the West, both religious and institutional.
  2. The growing power of Islam in the West cannot be halted by secularism, white nationalism, or any sub-civilization-level force.
  3. The preservation of the West requires a revival of Christianity.
  4. The preservation of the West requires the abandonment of some, though not all, secular values, beginning with the freedom of religion, that conflict with the restoration of Christianity
There is considerably more that can be concluded from this particular perspective, but I expect most people, even of an Alt-West persuasion, will struggle to accept just those four inescapable conclusions.

Labels: , ,

278 Comments:

1 – 200 of 278 Newer› Newest»
Blogger Salt October 01, 2016 11:42 AM  

If Islamic expansion isn't halted, I expect minarets proclaiming the Islamic call to prayer, a sound Obama said is the sweetest sound he knows, to rise from the ground 5 times a day like the Morlocks calling out to the Eloi.

Blogger Derek Kite October 01, 2016 11:44 AM  

I spent a good part of my youth in Quebec, seeing first hand the quiet revolution that changed that society from something very close to political catholicism to a godless hedonistic secular society. The change was very quick, a generation. I remember people saying they didn't go to church, but felt guilty, in the early 70's. I left in 1982, and my father told me that by 1990 someone who went to church was considered a bit strange.

In our stupidity we think our enemies are silly and uninformed, but the religious control over those societies is maintained by people who saw what happened in Christendom, not only in Quebec but in much of Europe. They are determined to not let it happen. And so far have been very successful.

A vibrant and active religious community is defined not by stasis but by outreach and growth. And by the strict maintenance of standards. We also see this, both by the increasing fundamentalist tendencies in Islam, and by the acquiescence of Islamic standards outside of Islam.

Blogger Derek Kite October 01, 2016 11:45 AM  

In other words, they know what they are doing. We don't.

Blogger Cerdic Ricing October 01, 2016 11:48 AM  

To expand on the third, any new religion has no guarantee (or perhaps even likelihood) of success, so neo-paganism, etc. have little adequacy in solving our problems. The replacement with another force will perpetuate the decline of what we have, and possibly leave everything in the ashes.

Other religions will not suffice as a replacement, especially when they have no proven fitness. Christianity is the only set of roots that even has the possibility of giving us Western civilization as we understand it, and the others might give us nothing.

Anonymous Sam the Man October 01, 2016 11:48 AM  

Very interesting post. That would imply the old Catholic philosophy of limiting the influence of Jews would be advantageous to survival of the western culture, as would elimination of Islamic influence by law. Would Buddhism be exempt from this prohibition? Come though think of it, it really would not matter as it seems few Buddhists get involved in politics.

Buddhism is not associated with a specific civilization but was very prevalent in a few (Chinese and Indian subcontinent). I seem to recall in reading that it did not seem at odds with Christianity in a lot of ways, though I am not an expert in practical application of Buddhism.

It seems to me that with 240 years of religious toleration built in to US law, a change such as you propose would not really doable, unless it was the product of a civil war or some other period of extreme upheaval that resulted in elimination of the supreme court.


Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 01, 2016 11:49 AM  

The modern West has a religion and it is Political Correctness because Political Correctness is not like a religion it is a religion.

A weak and feminine one of gossip and female hierarchy games but still a religion.

Blogger John Saunders October 01, 2016 11:53 AM  

Not a supporter of Islam, but is the West even worth preserving at this point?

The West's immediate precursor, Mediterranean Antiquity, fell. Julian the Apostate was not successful in reviving its pagan religion. A creed and clade focused on its own suicide does not inspire efforts on its behalf.

Blogger Basil Makedon October 01, 2016 11:57 AM  

Your conclusion Nos. 1 and 3 are absolutely inescapable. I stipulate to them.

Conclusion No. 2, I have a small issue with. I believe that the power of Islam could be halted by something less than a civilization-level force. I became interested in Islam following 9-11 and (off and on) read and studied their fundamental documents and sources since then. I think very few people realize how very fragile a world view it is. Islam cannot withstand the weight of its own internal contradictions, which is why even adherents are not permitted to question it and why violent reactions result from any confrontation -- whether theological, historical, intellectual, cartoon-ical or otherwise.

Conclusion 4. I agree, but an incredible amount of battle-space preparation needs to be done first, otherwise any attempt to mess with the "freedom of religion" would backfire and be used to liquidate Christians.

As for an Islam v. West conflict. Even if we desired no conflict with Islam, Islam is inherently, perpetually in conflict with everyone else -- the West, Africans, Indians, Chinese, everyone. Sura 9:29 (one of the last verses supposedly revealed): "Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled." They can have cease fires with us, until they are strong, but they can never really make peace with us.

The Left, I think, see the energy in Islam and thinks that they can control these people. The Left is horribly, horribly wrong. There is no controlling these people. Islamists know all about trojan-horses, applying pressure, exploiting victimhood to take over socieities until the time is right to strike. Mohammad supposedly did this very thing and could be the worlds first SJW.

Blogger dc.sunsets October 01, 2016 12:01 PM  

In the coming conflict any necessary central narrative will arise & attain dominance because, by circular axiom, it's necessary.

The glue needed to unite the West will spontaneously appear and elements that undermine it will be ruthlessly eliminated.

History produces all its own necessary ingredients.

Blogger #7139 October 01, 2016 12:01 PM  

...will struggle to accept just those four inescapable conclusions.

The logic of these conclusions is inescapable. I accept them.

Blogger dc.sunsets October 01, 2016 12:02 PM  

Leftists in the west will be irrelevant or buried once this illusion evaporates.

Blogger LES October 01, 2016 12:06 PM  

Religion provides Identity. Devout religious people do not easily give up their Identity or worldview that answers the great questions of Who am I? Where did I come from? Where am I going? The West has lost its identity. It seems most people avoid asking those questions and don't want to commit to a Christian worldview.

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr October 01, 2016 12:07 PM  

@7: I don't see a particular need to prohibit other faiths. The key is the maintenance of Christianity as the Western faith, with others tolerated subject to good behavior.

I'm old enough to remember a time when many public events had a minister or priest give an invocation. When the role of faith in the development of the United States was openly discussed. The militant atheists twisted freedom of worship into Atheism As State Anti-Religion.

Which is how we fight back. Accuse THEM of intolerance and bigotry. Then force the Left to endure the consequences.

Anonymous KH October 01, 2016 12:09 PM  

Granted that a restoration of Christianity is essential, and that freedom of religion is in the context of Christianity. What then are we to restore? How can there be one God, one Bible and a plurality of churches? One head and many bodies? Perhaps Western Civ can survive with various beliefs within the Christian realm, but if the past is any judge, then we can expect another devolution into churchianity, atheism, humanism, liberal corruption etc... unless there is a real restoration of 1st century Christianity. Perhaps Western Civ will be blessed for a return to a general Christianity, but the ideal would be to return to the beginning and start fresh. Seriously curious to what this group thinks.

Blogger freddy October 01, 2016 12:11 PM  

Slightly OT: I wonder if/when the Spirit of the living Christ regenerates a Stephen Molyneux, how much more spiritually holistic his lectures will become. It goes to show you the marked contrast between Augustine's, "I believe that I may know," and Aquinas', " I know that I may believe."

Anonymous Tipsy October 01, 2016 12:11 PM  

The plague of the west has been the succession of Gnostical mass movements like Communism, Positivism, Nazism, Feminism, Pan-Sexualism, and Socialism which, promising heaven on earth, have managed to sideline Christianity in the West. After all, who wants a cross and the uncertain hope of the beatific vision in the afterlife, when these ersatz religions offer paradise on the cheap?

The problem is all these movements have, at the core, is that they are based on a lie and a pridefully distorted understanding of divine and human nature. And lies that are adopted wholesale by a society have a way of eventually degrading and destroying it.

The only remedy is this: the Truth, in the person of Jesus Christ.

Blogger hank.jim October 01, 2016 12:12 PM  

Without the religious component, some countries focus on race, culture, and language. America doesn't have this going for them since they are a young country.

Blogger Fatherless October 01, 2016 12:13 PM  

Islam is an intimidatingly powerful memetic virus with a proven track record of absorbing territory. Either fight it with the tools that work, a strong Christian civilization, or transition to something that has never been accomplished: complete, universal ideological disarment.

The ladder will be accepted only if every civilization accepts that there is no functional aspect of religion - which is statically unlikely, considering no society has survived 5 generations without religion.

Anonymous Dave October 01, 2016 12:14 PM  

No one is coming to this fight without a religion.
Three religions battle for world domination, and what makes the fight interesting is the rock-paper-scissors relationship between the contenders:

Christianity defeats Islam by producing higher-quality offspring. Though Islam keeps its females pumping out babies from puberty to menopause, their kids receive so little paternal investment that they aren’t capable of much besides raping and pillaging soft targets.

Liberalism defeats Christianity because it’s a heresy of Christianity, a cluster of memes selected for their ability to undermine and destroy Christian faith from within.

Islam defeats Liberalism by beheading its men and raping its women. Liberal mind tricks and appeals to "universal" values don’t work on Muslims.

Anonymous VFM 4388 October 01, 2016 12:14 PM  

Freedom of religion as originally concieved -- a tolerance pact between specific sects -- is a far cry from the current conception of some sort of divine right for muslims and Dawkinsian atheists to attack Christians sans reprisal.

Blogger allyn71 October 01, 2016 12:16 PM  

Back in '08 a co-worker was trying to convince me that I had to vote for McCain in "most impotant lection evah!" because of all the harm Obama was going to do. I told him then and still feel today that it has to get worse for it to get better. The western nations will either wake up, repent, and rally to Christ or they will be overrun by the horde and those that enable them.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 01, 2016 12:19 PM  

The preservation of the West requires the abandonment of some, though not all, secular values, beginning with the freedom of religion, that conflict with the restoration of Christianity

Which "freedom of religion" do you mean? There are several definitions that have some overlap.

In the US I'm certain that none of the founders had Islam or Satanism in mind when the 1st Amendment was crafted. So their "freedom of religion" was the freedom to choose between different branches of Christianity plus an exception for Judaism and some tolerance of Indian native beliefs. Nothing else.

This was in keeping with the peace formed in Europe at the end of the 17th century wars of religion. We really should think very hard before throwing away this form of "freedom of religion", because it served well for centuries.

The more fuzzy, 1960's "do what you want" version of "freedom of religion" not only can go, it must go, because this is the "freedom" that allows Muslims to create their own ministate in Dearbornistan.
This also is the "freedom of religion" that forces Christians to tolerate Satanists, Santeria, etc. However we may have to argue about other things such as Shinto, Bahai' and Jain/Zoroastrians.

It isn't enough to be monotheistic, but we do not want to get Jack Chick vs. Rome or Die stirred up ether.
Let's have a care tinkering with ideas that have been working for a while.

Blogger S1AL October 01, 2016 12:19 PM  

Vox, when you say "institutional", do you mean in the sense of a sanctioned state religion/denomination? And if so, do you think that sort of concept will be able to take hold in America? Or would it require partitioning and a rethinking of the federal structure?

Blogger allyn71 October 01, 2016 12:20 PM  

A key indicator is abortion, that will be one of the first things to change if a revival is happening.

Blogger Ninja Rambler October 01, 2016 12:22 PM  

I'm not entirely convinced that East vs. West or Christian vs. Muslim is sufficient to describe the crisis. I think the concept of North vs. South is more accurate in describing the situation at the strategic level.

I don't think anybody here believes that Central/South Americans, who are coming from societies which are much more "Christian" than the United States, or African Christians care about "The West". The disparities (power, affluence) between North and South are ultimately what offend the southern hemisphere types.

I'm not claiming that a unifying spiritual purpose is not important, but it is downstream from a more fundamental concern; improving general social cohesion. If you think this requires greater racial homogeneity, then that should come first. We can work out the details around Catholic vs. Baptist vs. Evangelical vs. Pagan later.

Anonymous JustMakingItUp October 01, 2016 12:28 PM  

Given your observations here and in The Irrational Atheist -- with which I agree -- that religion does not, and historically has not, been a common cause of war, the idea that a religion is basic to a civilization and its defense seems to be contradictory.

Can you elaborate either concept in a way that reconciles them?

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 01, 2016 12:30 PM  

@24
I don't think anybody here believes that Central/South Americans, who are coming from societies which are much more "Christian" than the United States, or African Christians care about "The West".

Here is an anecdote to consider. Two years back I met a couple of white Americans who were raising funds to continue Christian mission work in Central America. Specifically Costa Rica. They were interesting and dedicated people who saw themselves as filling a void that the Roman Catholic church had left gaping in that country.

The woman casually mentioned that it was pleasant to wear her wedding ring. She usually kept it locked up in a safe place in the US. Because if she wore in the streets in Costa Rica someone would steal it, using whatever force necessary to get it. Her husband agreed and noted he never wore any jewelry or a watch. They both accepted this kind of blatant, daylight, robbery as normative in the capitol city of Costa Rica.

Yeah, we need to import more Central Americans. Right. 'Cause family values don't stop at the Rio Grande.

Blogger allyn71 October 01, 2016 12:30 PM  

4. The preservation of the West requires the abandonment of some, though not all, secular values, beginning with the freedom of religion, that conflict with the restoration of Christianity

I think this is the most controversial of the 4 conclusions. Personally I agree with the sentiment expressed but like others have pointed out, care needs to be exercised. Whose Christianity? To avoid a repeat of the Thirty Years' war it would be wise to accept all the branches. See Alt-right divisions and potential pitfalls. The urgency will probably suffice to allow that in the near term.

Blogger #6277 Hammer October 01, 2016 12:32 PM  

"I expect most people, even of an Alt-West persuasion, will struggle to accept just those four inescapable conclusions"
Correct. And that makes the fall of Western civilisation inevitable. We should save what can be saved. Let our sons and daughters build a new western civilisation

Blogger pyrrhus October 01, 2016 12:32 PM  

@25 Islam, which may or may not be a religion as well as a political system, always spreads by war...It has historically been halted only by Christian armies, often in somewhat miraculous fashion, as at Lepanto and Vienna....

Blogger John Saunders October 01, 2016 12:37 PM  

@13: I'm not so sure about religious toleration anymore. It worked within a schismed Christendom, somewhat, after the Peace of Westphalia ended the wars of religion. But at this point, tolerance has metastasized to a bloated ouroboros that is eating itself.

As to remembering, just rewind to 1980, the release of "Raiders of the Lost Ark." Even contemplating a line like "did either of you guys ever go to Sunday School?" would be anathema today. Not to mention Indy the Hero-Pedophile. We live in an age of Point Deer, Make Horse.

Forcing the Progs to live upto their own claims, to force feed them until they choke, would be Saul Alinsky's own tactics. But the Elect often hold themselves to be elevated above their own morality - how else can they be the arbiters of the moral, and yet impose radical course changes in what is "moral" at random intervals for the sake of "Progress?" Better to slam down the accelerator on The Progress, force and demand that the changes come ever faster in ever more radical form. The Progressive Religion will collapse all the faster of sheer exhaustion, tho the interim will not be pleasant for Progressivism's opponents and apostates.

I'm having a hard time seeing Christianity as worth reviving and preserving however. A creed intent on its own suicide has already proven its unfitness IMO.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 01, 2016 12:46 PM  

@30
@25 Islam, which may or may not be a religion as well as a political system, always spreads by war...It has historically been halted only by Christian armies, often in somewhat miraculous fashion, as at Lepanto and Vienna....

This is simplistic. Islam exists in east Asia and India where its spread was slowed or stopped by some force other than Christian armies. Maybe it was stopped by Hindu armies or Chinese armies, or maybe it was stopped by culture or terrain.

Blogger Were-Puppy October 01, 2016 12:47 PM  

Does this mean the first job at hand is to somehow uncuck the Church?

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 01, 2016 12:48 PM  

@31

I'm having a hard time seeing Christianity as worth reviving and preserving however. A creed intent on its own suicide has already proven its unfitness IMO.


Don't make the mistake of confusing Churchianity with Christianity.

Blogger sconzey October 01, 2016 12:55 PM  

Even the agnostic Mencius Moldbug, the leading thinker of neoreaction agrees:

It strikes me as quite implausible that when our dark age ends and the kings return, if ever, it will be under any banner but the Cross.

Source.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 01, 2016 12:56 PM  

Sam the Man wrote:Buddhism is not associated with a specific civilization but was very prevalent in a few (Chinese and Indian subcontinent). I seem to recall in reading that it did not seem at odds with Christianity in a lot of ways, though I am not an expert in practical application of Buddhism.



What? You never heard of Indochina? Thailand, Myanmar, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam form the Buddhist civilization. Granted, Buddhists tend to view their cosmology as the reality underneath all the other religions, so they tend to be tolerant of those that behave themselves. But when other religions begin to assert any power, as Catholics did in Vietnam, the hammer comes down fast and hard.

That by the way, was one of our serious problems is managing the Vietnam war. The French, and later the Kennedys picked the Catholic horse to back in the game of power, alienating a large part of the populace.

Ask the Burmese Moslems about Buddhist tolerance.

Anonymous BigGayKoranBurner October 01, 2016 1:02 PM  

beginning with the freedom of religion,

The founders freedom of religion was nothing like the current year liberal version.

Not a supporter of Islam, but is the West even worth preserving at this point?

If you mean the welfare payments to Latrina's 21 crack babies, the answer is no. I hope to be alive long enough after the nigapocalypse to be able to order a pizza.

Though Islam keeps its females pumping out babies from puberty to menopause, their kids receive so little paternal investment that they aren’t capable of much besides raping and pillaging soft targets.

This message the left needs to hear & that they are the soft targets.

wedding ring. She usually kept it locked up in a safe place in the US. Because if she wore in the streets in Costa Rica someone would steal it

Even I am not realist enough to think you can't safely store jewelry within a thousand miles of Costa Rica. But I laughed when a healthcare traveler said the watch he took off for just a few seconds disappeared, in an inner city hospital, was worth $2,000+.

OT: faggots really getting into TRUMP talking about the Narco ,porn star, assassination get away driver TRUMP called fat 3am tweet.

Also "Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore has been suspended without pay for the remainder of his term after being found guilty by The Alabama Court of the Judiciary (COJ) on judicial ethics charges stemming from his defiance of the Supreme Court’s ruling"

Blogger John Saunders October 01, 2016 1:03 PM  

@24: I used to be very energized about abortion. Then I realized it was mostly the OPFOR killing their own children. Hard to raise an iota of caring anymore.

@29: To take this post as a starting point, a new civilization requires a new religion.

@34: Christianity birthed its decayed offspring, and held the seeds of that decay within itself all along. But OTOH, that's true of anything - religious creed, organism, whatever, everything lives its seasons and eventually dies. But if something is in the midst of its own passing, in its Autumn or Winter, I would submit it might be better to search for something new in its early Spring.

Around such a new creed, new ethnoi would precipitate into being.

Note that I would not characterize Islam as being in its Spring. Islam is an old creed showing some present vigor due to contingent circumstances. My interpretation of Islam is Spenglerian.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper October 01, 2016 1:04 PM  

1st So long as it can sustain its birth rates and borders, the West need not be a major civilization . There have been long periods in which it was something of a backwater and it did well enough.

2nd You are going to need a Constantine and a political elite with the might and charisma to impose Christianity on the West. It might not even be possible in Northern and Western Europe. Hell Ireland and Italy are growing less religious.

The "faithful leader" idea is kind of starting in Russia with Putin being a member of an actively supporting the Russian Orthodox faith but its too new to tell if it will have enough of an effect.

#3 To what Derek Kite said, its not a surprise to me that Christianity up and failed . To Non Christians its a meme like any other and its worn out its welcome, Most people aren't that religious and go to church because its expected of them. In some respects its the same with having children. There is a thought among natalism researchers that people have larger families (or sometimes children at all) because people around them are doing it more than for any other reason.

Making that meme work again isn't simple as John Saunders noted the Meds were not able to bring back theirs.

#4 A ruthless secular state could quite easily deal with Islam if it wished . We have the technology to do this. what is lacking is will.

#5 To something Tipsy said, Gnosticism is harder than Christianity much harder. In any case none of these political ideas offer cheap paradise , far from it. They all demand sacrifices. Why they differ is that instead of focusing on a nebulous maybe non existent afterlife, they focus on building what they falsely perceive would be a better material world. Its about the world we live in, not the one that might not be. Since these ideas do provide a framework of belonging just as faith does , they can be effective

Blogger Bard October 01, 2016 1:05 PM  

There is a lot of serious online work being done for the All-right movement. I was pondering how we take it offline and organize in the physical community. Meet ups, political rallies, ect? The framework is already there in our churches. Maybe we become guest speakers or formal home churches to force change. The reason why this could work is that churches are already fairly segregated. How many whites attend a black or Hispanic church? They will be accepted in ours but we generally do not go to theirs. How to red pill white churchians from the pulpit? It is still the only place we gather enmass routinely other than football stadiums. I am just thinking here but the locations and the people are already there so how do we take it back? Maybe revival can only come from the spirit but I have the sense that God sometimes will not do for us what we should be doing ourselves . I have recently created a little havoc in our home group by suggesting this and they are not too open to it yet. I hate to think we cannot do this unless it is forced on us through the crucible of persecution.

Blogger dienw October 01, 2016 1:13 PM  

Christianity birthed its decayed offspring
Too many people here confuse Christianity with the doctrines of the wolves in sheeps' clothing: happens when you want your ears tickled or when you would rather obey the traditions of your elders.

Blogger Pseudotsuga October 01, 2016 1:15 PM  

Sam the Man wrote:Very interesting post. That would imply the old Catholic philosophy of limiting the influence of Jews would be advantageous to survival of the western culture, as would elimination of Islamic influence by law. Would Buddhism be exempt from this prohibition? Come though think of it, it really would not matter as it seems few Buddhists get involved in politics.

Buddhism is not associated with a specific civilization but was very prevalent in a few (Chinese and Indian subcontinent). I seem to recall in reading that it did not seem at odds with Christianity in a lot of ways, though I am not an expert in practical application of Buddhism.



Buddhism seems to be at the center of a rise of a number of Asian civilization/states. What we now call Japan, Korea, China, Vietnam, Thailand, India, etc. became Buddhist early in their histories as the aristocracy found some kind of value in its belief and practices. The practice of Confucianism gradually co-opted or aggregated Buddhism into it in some ways, to varying success. Consider Japan, where the native beliefs of Shinto and the imported religious system of Buddhism are overlaid with a Confucian social order...and then throw the Western culture on top of that. A few modern nations consider Buddhism their main or state religion, and many (if not most) still have groups of active Buddhist practitioners (such as is the case in Korea.)
So...to wrench this back on topic... what is it in Buddhism that doesn't give rise to the nation-state as we know it? Is there a lesson for the Christian West in this?

Blogger FrankNorman October 01, 2016 1:18 PM  

Some of this debate about valuing Christianity only in terms of its ability to defeat the Left and the Muslims is reminding me of something by one of CS Lewis's characters, that God will not be used as a convenience - those who dream of reviving the Faith in order to make a more just society might as well try to use the stairs of Heaven as a short-cut to the grocer's shop.

Yes, you need to bring a religion to a civilization war. But you also need to seriously believe in that religion.

Anonymous johnc October 01, 2016 1:25 PM  

When I hear some anti-Christians like Bill Maher decrying Islam all I can do is: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I've heard it said from a few people that by 2050 Europe will either be Muslim or Christian, and nothing in between. I'm inclined to believe that, and assume America will follow likewise.

In the US I'm certain that none of the founders had Islam or Satanism in mind when the 1st Amendment was crafted. So their "freedom of religion" was the freedom to choose between different branches of Christianity plus an exception for Judaism and some tolerance of Indian native beliefs. Nothing else.

I guess that could be true, at least of the citizens. I'm not so sure about those who wrote the overarching frameworks though (Jefferson, etc.). They were living the "Englightenment" dream back then, which is basically freemasonry wrapped up in a less retarded-looking bow. And freemasonry isn't really Christocentric. It's more along the lines that religion doesn't matter that much; what matters is that people believe in a god. The only real religion is humanism: the religion of us.

Weren't some of the founders deist anyway?

At the time the various popes' befuddlement of American ideals is somewhat amusing. Their statements can basically be modernized thus: "Dafuq? How the hell does the Church not have pride of prominence in matters of moral law and governance?"

This idea -- that the Church has "pride of prominence" in a national government -- actually sustained quite a long time in Italy, Ireland and England (under CoE for the latter) until those countries completely lost their minds.

This was in keeping with the peace formed in Europe at the end of the 17th century wars of religion. We really should think very hard before throwing away this form of "freedom of religion", because it served well for centuries.

This strikes me as trying to solve a misfire with fuel injector cleaner. We need to address the fundamental error and recognize that "religious wars" between Christians are prohibited. There should be no divisions amongst the flock. And if there is we should expect a beating from the Shepherd.

Anonymous BGKB October 01, 2016 1:25 PM  

OT: Guess where i will be going next time I am in Philly. It turns out you can keep blacks out with dress code. QUEENS TRUMP SPADES Identity politics breakdown- Protests Planned in Philadelphia After Video Emerges of Gay Bar Owner Calling Black Guests ‘N—ers’ – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3hOVbKGpfs

"Jayson Flores ‎@gayonabudget I'm done! SO DONE! I hope ICandy and the Gayborhood enjoy being an ocean of nothing but vanilla ice cream.3:49 PM - 29 Sep 2016"

"They were protesting ICandy’s blatantly racist dress code policy that prohibits patrons from entering wearing Timberlands."

PhillyMag notes that nearby Philadelphia gay bar Woody’s has also been accused of having a racist dress code, and that “enforcement of Gayborhood bar dress codes that target urban fashion trends has seemingly become more frequent in the past year.”

Blogger Pseudotsuga October 01, 2016 1:27 PM  

BigGayKoranBurner wrote:beginning with the freedom of religion,

Though Islam keeps its females pumping out babies from puberty to menopause, their kids receive so little paternal investment that they aren’t capable of much besides raping and pillaging soft targets.

This message the left needs to hear & that they are the soft targets.


Not just the left, BGKB...
I have some soft, sweet, squishy Christian friends who got a bit miffed about reading a recent news report that a Southern state was not going to teach about Islam in school. One huffed on a Facebook post about all the good things that Islam contributes to the world, and the other (a female) agreed. They agreed that homeschooling was good in this situation because they could teach about Islam if they wanted to.
I decided I didn't want to stand on the sidelines on this one, and I asked them if they were going to teach about taqiyy, jizya, and how great sharia law is, and how great it will be when this is spread all over the earth. I'm waiting to see their replies to my query, before I decide if I will ask them directly what good things they can point to which are a product of Islam.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper October 01, 2016 1:27 PM  

I tend to agree with you on this Frank.

The thing is it doesn't seem like Christianity serves as an actual faith for most in the West or as a civic religion either.

You can't dictate true faith top down of course though you can dictate a civic religion. I don't think the desire is out there for actual Christianity

Our current civic religion, "The Cathedral" is failing because its built on false premises and simply doesn't work. No one really believes in it even the crazy SJW's since it has no foundation . They just don't have an alternative and I'm not sure a roll back to "that old time religion" is a workable solution either.

Till something new comes along, maybe the West ought to find a way to keep its borders free of human detritus and build social memes and economic systems that encourage stable families.

This won't enable by itself a great civilization but its not needed that we be one. Maybe its a good idea if we aren't and instead simply sustain.

There is a notion forming in my head that our overreach both in the Roman times and now is what does us in. we don't reach to far and we might be better for it.

Anonymous GreyS October 01, 2016 1:27 PM  

Agree with conclusions 1,2,3 and 4. The basic problem is that America-- THE leader of the West which sets the tone and environment for current Western Civilization-- was founded as a post-Christian Nation which inevitably led to a nation of post-Christians.

Blogger LonestarWhacko October 01, 2016 1:30 PM  

I believe that this is really simple. Western policies on Abortion kill civilization. Open infanticide. Yep, that's a true sign of a dying civilization.

Blogger Nick S October 01, 2016 1:30 PM  

The interesting thing is that the US government won't be able to effectively discredit ISIS without violating what the idea of the separation of church and state has come to represent in the last half century or so AND telling millions in the fastest growing segment in Islam today that they're wrong. Obama has painted the US into a corner from which there is no clean way out. Which reminds me...

How are we to deal with the American Nationalist, anti-globalist jews such as Matthew Tyrmand who is busily shooting to the left along with those like Dennis Prager who is arguably having more of an impact than anybody associated with the Alt-White.

Anonymous Gordian October 01, 2016 1:31 PM  

I stumbled on an essay in Pocock's Virtue, Commerce, and History claiming that to understand Locke, one needs to see the Two Treatises as secondary to his religious writings. If Locke was an atheist, promoting Latitudinarianism as a way to degrade Protestantism into something compatible with his new religion of Liberalism, then the sum total of his work takes on a new, more ominous meaning.

Westphalian toleration is One Prince, One Church. Worship with the prince or leave for another principality. Anglo-American toleration is Locke, and if Pocock is right, the whole A-A Toleration concept is poison, and needs to be rooted out. Understanding toleration as limited to Christians isn't enough, since the goal of Locke is to use Latitudinarianism to destroy the notion of objective orthodoxy.

Hence, the necessity for breaking up the American Empire. We cannot have one faith in the United States, but we can in many principalities.

Anonymous Mr. Rational October 01, 2016 1:34 PM  

The decline of the West is the direct result of the decline of Christianity in the West, both religious and institutional.
Unfortunately, Christianity brought a lot of this on itself.  After giving rise to techniques like the scientific method as part of a general search for truth, large factions found some truths unbearable.  Worse, a lot of the responses looked like mass psychoses, breaks from reality.

It would be so much easier if all Christians simply accepted that, whatever original sin might be, it came from one's monkey ancestors and get on with it.

The growing power of Islam in the West cannot be halted by secularism, white nationalism, or any sub-civilization-level force.
A general immigration moratorium would slash the power of Islam, and be immensely popular.  Hitting Islam with its own contradictions, criticizing it for its savagery and refusing to recognize it as a religion (it's a seditious political system with a veneer of worship) would get it out of the USA.

The preservation of the West requires a revival of Christianity.
That will take a Christianity which can not just withstand, but fully accept and incorporate its own intellectual progeny.  Good luck with that.

The preservation of the West requires the abandonment of some, though not all, secular values, beginning with the freedom of religion, that conflict with the restoration of Christianity

This begs the question "who is a Christian?" and raises the prospect of re-fighting the English civil war.  Good luck with that too.

Tipsy wrote:The plague of the west has been the succession of Gnostical mass movements like Communism, Positivism, Nazism, Feminism, Pan-Sexualism, and Socialism which, promising heaven on earth, have managed to sideline Christianity in the West.
A little more history in the schools would do a lot to alleviate that.  Cover some utopian movements of the past, and how they ended in tears.  It would make people more skeptical when someone says "but THIS time, it'll be DIFFERENT!"

The problem is all these movements have, at the core, is that they are based on a lie and a pridefully distorted understanding of divine and human nature.
Civilization takes work to maintain.  That is something that was never explicitly taught in my classes.  Maybe that's a big chunk of what's missing.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper October 01, 2016 1:37 PM  

RE: Satanism.

Orthodox Lavey style Satanism ts pretty much indistinguishable from the Libertarian end of Neo conservatism. Its Ayn rand with more asshole and a bit of Gothic Witchcraft trappings thrown in. Cult Satanists do exist but aren't organized in any real way and aren't a bother till they commit crimes

Also at least one Founding Father , Ben Franklin was a member of the Hellfire Club an organization which didn't actually worship Satan but promulgated "Do what though wilt" and outright blasphemy

More than a few were deists, Freemasons or secular including Jefferson who admired the ethics of Christianity but rewrote the bible without mysticism

So the 1st amendment probably meant every faith or no faith . That said it was until the 14th amendment meant to reign in the Federal government not the States , they could have an established religion though one could make the argument that the 9th amendment assumes the right to not participate at all levels.

Anonymous Professor October 01, 2016 1:40 PM  

It seems like there is a contradiction here that if Christianity is they key unifying force then religious catholic mestizos would be welcomed in the Alt-west and Albanian muslims would not. I think one of the harder question to deal with is how pure you are going to get in the U.S. There are huge numbers of people who have a mexican grandparent but see themselves as just Americans. Or a jewish grandparent. Very hard drawn racial lines- I don't know, I think racial identity is a big deal but it can be a spectrum.

Blogger sconzey October 01, 2016 1:41 PM  

Actually, that UR essay I just linked to is particularly good. Even if you think you don't like Moldbug's writing I urge you to give that one a go. It's not too long, and he manages to stay pretty much on topic.

More quotes:
It is impossible to imagine a king who does not serve the King of Kings. Or rather, if we imagine one, we find ourselves looking for other words, pejorative ones - like "dictator." What were Hitler and Stalin, but godless kings?

Moldbug also quotes Maistre:
Frenchmen, it was to the noise of hellish songs, the blasphemy of atheism, the cries of death, and the prolonged moans of slaughtered innocence, it was by the light of flames, on the debris of throne and altar, watered by the blood of the best of kings and an innumerable host of other victims, it was by the contempt of morality and the established faith, it was in the midst of every crime that your seducers and your tyrants founded what they call your liberty.

But when man works to restore order he associates himself with the author of order; he is favored by nature, that is to say, by ensemble of secondary forces that are the agents of the Divinity. His action partakes of the divine; it becomes both gentle and imperious, forcing nothing yet not resisted by anything. His arrangements restore health. As he acts, he calms disquiet and the painful agitation that is the effect and symptom of disorder. In the same way, the hands of a skilful surgeon bring the cessation of pain that proves the dislocated joint has been put right.

Blogger Frank Lin October 01, 2016 1:42 PM  

@ 26

"Given your observations here and in The Irrational Atheist -- with which I agree -- that religion does not, and historically has not, been a common cause of war, the idea that a religion is basic to a civilization and its defense seems to be contradictory.

Can you elaborate either concept in a way that reconciles them?"

I'll hazard a guess. Religion may not start a war but it does help you survive one. Anybody will die for their kids, but you need religion to die for someone else's.

Blogger S1AL October 01, 2016 1:42 PM  

"More than a few were deists, Freemasons or secular including Jefferson who admired the ethics of Christianity but rewrote the bible without mysticism "

This is untrue. There were exceedingly free deists among the founders, and Jefferson was very explicitly a Christian. The so-called "Jefferson Bible" contained miracles and was actually akin to a modern topical. The intent was a comparison of moral philosophies.

Blogger Johnny October 01, 2016 1:42 PM  

As a side point here I think it a mistake to push a state religion even if that is the intent. Like the always lying SJW's, retain the idea of open mindedness even as you are not. The fiction that people have chosen Christianity when they have merely been taught Christianity.

Political Correctness is not a religion, it is a moral code. The core religion is Secular Humanism. The belief system is that scientifically revealed truth will displace the pagan fantasies of the past. This has been with us since the time of the French Revolution. It became the murderous creed of the revolution, eventually sponsored Communism along with the softer American version, sometimes labeled Progressive.

Abstractly the idea has appeal, except it has not worked out well. To displace religion science has to start operating like a religion. Or to put it another way, when science confronts culture, culture wins and science becomes another kind of culture, as irrationally driven as the old culture, but less aware of it.

What we have effectively accomplished with our widespread college education is to make Secular Humanism the new state sponsored religion. And in turn, produced another example of why state sponsored religions are not such a hot idea in industrial societies.

Not that I am against supporting a religion, it is just that when religion gets too close to government, it becomes government.

Blogger S1AL October 01, 2016 1:42 PM  

*exceedingly few

Blogger pdwalker October 01, 2016 1:44 PM  

The preservation of the West requires a revival of Christianity.

This, this, a thousand times this. It took a lot of years of stupidity before I could see this.

Anonymous Eric the Red October 01, 2016 1:44 PM  

'4. The preservation of the West requires the abandonment of some, though not all, secular values, beginning with the freedom of religion, that conflict with the restoration of Christianity.'

Yes. This also requires the abandonment of so-called civil rights, which under the rubrics of discrimination, racism, and multiculturalism has been used as a club to selectively destroy whites' freedom of association as well as their freedom of religion specifically traditional Christianity.

In general the (elites) are in contempt of religion that involves standards, judgment, and following rules as a path to moral authority. But this is a paradox... the (elites) hold in contempt exactly that which keeps them in power: following the rules, and the little people who do so. (They) are convinced that breaking rules is the only way to get ahead. And those who don't break rules because of being hidebound by religion, or the Constitution, or whatever, are therefore fit only for being led by the nose, deserving whatever totalitarian slavery under the guise of secular utopia the (elites) see fit to impose.

OpenID ghost-tiger88 October 01, 2016 1:53 PM  

You can't abandon freedom of religion and maintain freedom of speech. These freedoms are equivalent. During the time Christians held Jerusalem in the middle ages, Templar Knights would protect visiting Muslims as they prayed from hostile Christian pilgrims. The answer is not to ban other religions, but to vigorously promote Christianity. Tell people what they should do rather than telling them what they should not.

Baseball pitching coaches understand this. If you go up to a pitcher and tell him, "Throw it anywhere but high and outside because this batter likes it there.", your pitcher will likely throw it high and outside because the words "anywhere but" failed to register. So seasoned coaches know to go up and say, "Throw it low and inside." and this gets the job done.

Don't ban Islam. Promote Christianity. If you promote it, they will convert. History has proven this.

Anonymous Just Stopping By October 01, 2016 1:58 PM  

OT but related under betrayal, collusion and corruption. Somehow I missed this a few days ago: http://thewashingtonstandard.com/fbi-director-comey-took-millions-clinton-foundation-defense-contractor/

Blogger Al From Bay Shore October 01, 2016 2:01 PM  

Cannot talk about Western Civ. without discussing Christianity. There is a reason why the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches have utilized Latin and Koine Greek, respectively.

Blogger #6277 Hammer October 01, 2016 2:03 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous johnc October 01, 2016 2:04 PM  

Not that I am against supporting a religion, it is just that when religion gets too close to government, it becomes government.

Well that could be a problem or a blessing. Consider Pope Urban II. He says, "Okay! Enough of this shit! All the Muslims GTFO." And what happens? The First Crusade is on. Contrast that to the modern day effeminate Pope Jazzhands, who has less political power than a Big Bird monologue on PBS.

I dunno. I guess in some way modern man is more sophisticated. Not sure the end result is any better.

Anonymous Isotalo October 01, 2016 2:04 PM  

"1. The decline of the West is the direct result of the decline of Christianity in the West, both religious and institutional."

The west was already very strong before Christianity existed. How was that possible, if its decline now is an inevitable result of the decline of Christianity? I'm not an expert on history, but it seems to me that the ancient Greek and Roman era pre-Christian west was very strong, without Christianity. Certainly Africa and Asia could not conquer the west of those days, which seems to be happening now due to western stupidity and weakness. So, how could it be that the west couldn't be strong today without a revival of Christianity? Were the ancient pagan religions truly that effective? It seems to me that Christianity is one of the very reasons why the west is in decline now, as it seems to contain the kind of ideas of equality that can be easily used to justify being a global welfare office and opening windows and doors on harmful immigration. Maybe such interpretations of Christianity are somehow wrong theologically, but does that really matter, if such interpretations are so easy to make and seem to come so naturally to so many people? Perhaps Christianity would be more useful if it was more resistant to such interpretations, but how to make it so?

Honest questions. I have never really understood how intelligent people, especially very intelligent, can believe in any God. I often wish I could myself, but so far I haven't found a way. If anyone has any ideas on how to go about doing that, they are welcome.

From my problems with that first argument, it follows that they all collapse in my thinking (which is far from perfect thinking, of course). It seems to me that the idea of religion being the central requirement for a strong civilization is only a theory, and an unproven one at that.

If I am wrong, and Christianity needs to be revived for the west to continue to exist, then I believe the west is lost. How will the people that abandoned Christianity suddenly accept it again? What force could cause such a thing?

I'm not ready yet to accept that the survival of the west is down to a divine miracle turning western people back to old style Christianity, not the modern "churchianity" (is that the word?) style of Christianity that preaches gay marriage and immigration and female priests.

Blogger Shimshon October 01, 2016 2:04 PM  

I bought the book. Look forward to getting it.

Blogger Matamoros October 01, 2016 2:05 PM  

I think it is apropos to mention Col. Tom Kratman's excellent article in this regard:

Where was Secular Humanism at Lepanto?

http://www.tomkratman.com/Ranttuloriad.html

Blogger Cataline Sergius October 01, 2016 2:12 PM  

I expect most people, even of an Alt-West persuasion, will struggle to accept just those four inescapable conclusions.

I do agree with those conclusions although it took me a while to get there.

Leaving Libertarianism and embracing identity politics hasn't been easy for me but I've made the adjustment.

The biggest problem we face is the foundation itself. The Christian churches in America have been corrupted. We all know that. The shepherds are leading their flocks to the wolves and doing it in the name of Christ.

The place to start is there.

The beginning of Victoria may well prove prophetic.

Blogger #6277 Hammer October 01, 2016 2:12 PM  

This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. - 1 John - 3.16

Anonymous SciVo October 01, 2016 2:13 PM  

Some of the ilk, including myself, have been saying for awhile now that we need to restore the understanding that the 1st amendment forbidding an establishment of religion 1.) applied only to the Feds 2.) just forbade favoring one flavor of Christianity over another, since the various states had differing official sects, and there was a worry that the more popular ones would use the new federation to impose theirs on everyone else.

It's a freedom of Christianity, and nothing more, and it has perverted into the reversal of its intent by black-robed dictators of evil will. God willing, those Christ-hating judges will someday be strange fruit.

Blogger Lovekraft October 01, 2016 2:13 PM  

Islam is subtle and sneaky but, coming from a violent basis, expresses it's message in violence and threats. Not a good start to build a functioning society.

Christianity is also subtle in that it calmly and patiently allows the transgressor to become aware of his failings, then provides the path to redemption. This builds a society of productive, welcomed people.

My money is on Christianity serving as the conscience of the world, while Islam is the world's jailer. It is also very close to Buddhism but with an edge. What judaism represents to me is those who survey the battlefield looking for scraps, or coaxes the other religions to fight.

Anonymous Eric the Red October 01, 2016 2:18 PM  

Limiting aspects of 'freedom of religion' is necessary for the purpose of helping traditional Christianity and only traditional Christianity to flourish. But neither the ilk here nor our society in general can agree on what is truly traditional Christianity.

However, the (elites) know exactly, otherwise they wouldn't be able to selectively bring down the hammer on whatever Christian practices are still getting in the way of imposing (their) utopia.

Are the (elites) really smarter than the ilk ???

Anonymous Mr. Rational October 01, 2016 2:22 PM  

LonestarWhacko wrote:Western policies on Abortion kill civilization. Open infanticide. Yep, that's a true sign of a dying civilization.
There were essentially no restrictions on abortion for the USA's first century, and the high rate of abortion among Af-Ams is one of the biggest eugenic and eucivic forces operating now.  The high rate of abortion of Down fetuses saves a lot of SPED costs too (though I suspect that public schooling may NEED to collapse in order to eliminate the fanatical egalitarianism behind the crop of laws killing the education part, as opposed to the indoctrination part).

Blogger OneWingedShark October 01, 2016 2:24 PM  

KH wrote:How can there be one God, one Bible and a plurality of churches? One head and many bodies?
Would you throw out John's Revelation then? After all, it's written to the Seven Churches, isn't it?

Denominations aren't, I think, a big deal -- what is, is whether or not that denomination/church/family/person is following God.

Anonymous Eric the Red October 01, 2016 2:25 PM  

Damn it, Islam is not a religion. It is a political ideology painted over with a facade of worshiping some moon god. Anyone who hasn't thought this through will continue to flail about its supposed equivalence to any other religion and therefore its place in a "free society".

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 01, 2016 2:28 PM  

Bear in mind that Islam was withering across north Africa and the MIddle East for much of the 19th century and into the 20th. This was largely due to economics.

The Muslim traders of the Middle East had been cut out of trade by the longer sailing routes around Africa beginning with Portuguese navigators such as da Gama. But the slaver economy continued across North Africa and into the Middle East for centuries; both black Africans and white Europeans were captured by raiders and sold into slavery where they were often worked to death.

By 1820 or so the European and American naval forces had ships far superior to anything the Muslims did. This made the Med into a Western lake, ending the Muslim slave raids on Europe and also making transport of black slaves by water impossible.

Islam innovates nothing. It creates nothing. It is a parasite on other civilizations. With their middleman status in the far East trade gone, and their slave raiders confined to land routes into sub Saharan Africa, a far more dangerous and disease prone raid than hitting Italy or Spain or even Ireland, the Islamic world deteriorated.

It is no accident that Kemal Ataturk forced Westernization onto Turkey, it was the only way for that country to survive. Turkey's success since the 1920's is a direct result. And it is failing, as such things always do, in the third generation.

What saved Islam was oil. Oil and gas in Algeria, oil and gas in the Persian Gulf. The transfer of wealth from Europe to Islam that previously had consisted of human slaves now became a deal to power machines.

Left to its own, confined, world Islam will wither and become a dead husk. Because it is a straitjacket on humans. No thinking allowed. Plus the bonus of cousin marriage everywhere from India west to Morocco pretty much limits IQ to about 90 at best.

Isolate Islam from everyone else, and watch it die over the course of a century.

Anonymous SciVo October 01, 2016 2:35 PM  

Sam the Man wrote:Would Buddhism be exempt from this prohibition? Come though think of it, it really would not matter as it seems few Buddhists get involved in politics.

Seems. Buddhism is a gateway drug to gnosticism, which is weaponized solipsism. Imagining that the self is an illusion and part of a greater whole, you can stop at the lesson that to hurt another is to hurt oneself. Or, you can do like the hippies did and realize that since it's okay to hurt others by hurting yourself, it's okay to hurt yourself by hurting others, and really you should just try to get as much experience of life as possible, square ethics be damned.

Which is why every night at Haight & Ashbury was a bigger gang-bang than the night before. Effing Boomers, they can't even get Eastern mysticism right.

Blogger Lovekraft October 01, 2016 2:36 PM  

@ 62: "Don't ban Islam. Promote Christianity. If you promote it, they will convert. History has proven this."

Good point and one many of us here are trying to do, but the current church structures is comprised primarily of baby boomer denialists, africa-worshippers, and feminists (both male and female). These groups are not designed to resist corruption. Too soft. Too indoctrinated.

So we must demand that if others require us to accept their view, they do the same to us. If they demand we accept their globalist diversity propaganda, we reply that we are not against their campaign, just not FOR it.

The next stage is crucial: either the progressive accepts your decision, or they reveal their true color and you treat them as you would any dangerous enemy.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper October 01, 2016 2:36 PM  

S1AL wrote:"More than a few were deists, Freemasons or secular including Jefferson who admired the ethics of Christianity but rewrote the bible without mysticism "

This is untrue. There were exceedingly free deists among the founders, and Jefferson was very explicitly a Christian. The so-called "Jefferson Bible" contained miracles and was actually akin to a modern topical. The intent was a comparison of moral philosophies.


Wikipedia is a bit converged so grain of salt but note

"Jefferson used certain passages of the New Testament to compose The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth (the "Jefferson Bible"), which excluded any miracles by Jesus and stressed his moral message. "

Jefferson was probably a UU of some kind. he described him self as Unitarian, Materialist, Epicurian and a few other things . He also opposed Trinitarianism!

Also note he coined the phrase "wall of separation between church and state" as well.

he was far from a good Christian as we know it these days.

In any case, the .Alt West cannot count on the Christian religion coming back among White Americans, Anglo-Sphere and Europeans to any degree. Any plan for the the survival of the West that depends on it underpants gnome level planning

Christianity

?

The West


A plan that is political in nature and grants people who think like us power is what is called for. Power. The rest comes after.

Blogger Lovekraft October 01, 2016 2:41 PM  

Surprised he isn't mentioned in these comments, but Dalrock's blog has been revealing the globalist nature of many churches in the west for a long time.

Blogger Teri October 01, 2016 2:41 PM  

I think you could make a case that Christianity does best when Christians are persecuted. It's the history of the church after all. Protestants and Catholics persecuted each other and were stronger then. The Mormons developed under persecution. (And I am not a Mormon, but there are things they do that seem like good policies. They encourage families, they prep and they cooperate in communities. And there are benefits to being a church member, such as access to employment).

Maybe we need persecution to be successful again.

Anonymous Axe Head October 01, 2016 2:54 PM  

Cue "kike on stick!" kvetching from the atheist right. We have these arguments all the time in those circles... Not being religious is just a big "F*** you, dad!"

Bruce Charlton has said, and described, the left as irreligion, and right as religion. He asserts that trying to rightist without religion is self-contradictory.

Good poast, and I'm starting "Clash of Civilizations."

Anonymous Mr. Rational October 01, 2016 2:56 PM  

A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents wrote:What saved Islam was oil. Oil and gas in Algeria, oil and gas in the Persian Gulf. The transfer of wealth from Europe to Islam that previously had consisted of human slaves now became a deal to power machines.
The irony is that we don't need it to power machines.  The way was shown in 1942, in a heap of graphite in a squash court in Chicago.  After the first OPEC price shock, France resolved to convert its oil-powered electric grid to run on uranium.  17 years later they were essentially done.

All that needs to be done now is to finish the job.  We can make half of transport electric almost without effort; that's almost 14 million barrels a day of demand in play.  Do you have any idea what slashing oil demand by 50% would do to KSA, and through it, Islam?  Cut transport demand in half and the USA becomes a net exporter again... for the first time since 1948.
Left to its own, confined, world Islam will wither and become a dead husk. Because it is a straitjacket on humans. No thinking allowed.
It would be worse than that.  Most of Arabia is far beyond its carrying capacity and aquifers are dry or about to be.  They cannot feed themselves.  Cut off their money and confine them, and mass starvation would follow within weeks.  I bet that 90% of Arabs would be dead within a year, and Islam would take a massive blow world-wide.

Blogger Zeroh Tollrants October 01, 2016 3:03 PM  

I babysat for Judge Moore, as a girl. Sorry to read that.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper October 01, 2016 3:07 PM  

Mr. Rational wrote:LonestarWhacko wrote:Western policies on Abortion kill civilization. Open infanticide. Yep, that's a true sign of a dying civilization.

There were essentially no restrictions on abortion for the USA's first century, and the high rate of abortion among Af-Ams is one of the biggest eugenic and eucivic forces operating now.  The high rate of abortion of Down fetuses saves a lot of SPED costs too (though I suspect that public schooling may NEED to collapse in order to eliminate the fanatical egalitarianism behind the crop of laws killing the education part, as opposed to the indoctrination part).


Abortion drives certain Christians into a lather. Some here honestly think its a sacrament to Moloch rather than a just form of infanticide which is a nearly universal human custom

Its not something that any discussion of is worthwhile.

In any case its removal would make no positive difference to the West. It won't promote Christianity, a culture of life whatever that is or do much more other than increase the NAM population and the number of defective babies.

Also it won't create much of a population boom either, Japan went way below replacement fertility with basically no contraceptives other than condoms and restrictive abortion laws though its overall rate is about the same as ours though.

Abortion doesn't matter. People have kids because everyone else is doing it or they like kids or sometimes in response to attempted genocide (c.f Timor Leste) to preserve a society

Westerners feel overcrowded,have been impoverished and would as is our custom rather put more into fewer offspring and to use some of our precious not replaceable time to enjoy the complex society we built anyway. Individualism is part of the West and that means taking time to do what you want rather than what is expected of you

A real driven West , a greater power requires some kind of faith, right now probably Christianity but a livable, pleasant, Western west does not.

If we removed all kebab and minos and such , we'd have very few problems and a small bump in fertility maybe caused by a populist economic policy and a little less Cultural Marxism would put us back on the right path

As for example, Non Hispanic Whites in the US and much of Europe have a TFR of around 1.7 -- to reach stability all that is required is around one family in 3 to have a single child either an extra or just one. That is it.

Decent jobs for men and less divorce rape and cultural Marxism will fix that , no religious revival required

Removal of unwanted persons and an immigration freeze will take care of the demographic decline too.

Its easy if we stop destroying ourselves with ambition that won't benefit most people anyway.

OpenID ghost-tiger88 October 01, 2016 3:07 PM  

The churches are lost. Derek Kite's comment #2 above on the state of the Catholic Church in Quebec is bang on. And the Protestant churches are no better.

We need talented individual men to lead the Christian revival without any help from a church. We're on our own men. But we can do this.

Anonymous johnc October 01, 2016 3:07 PM  

There were essentially no restrictions on abortion for the USA's first century, and the high rate of abortion among Af-Ams is one of the biggest eugenic and eucivic forces operating now. The high rate of abortion of Down fetuses saves a lot of SPED costs too (though I suspect that public schooling may NEED to collapse in order to eliminate the fanatical egalitarianism behind the crop of laws killing the education part, as opposed to the indoctrination part).

This is why atheists don't get to play government after the revolution. Basic morality is lost on too many of them.

Anonymous English Tom October 01, 2016 3:14 PM  

The underlying problem for the West is not Islamic fundamentalism.

that's right. Our problem is (((They))) have flooded Europe with muslims and the US with hispanics etc.

The immigrants etc are symptoms. (((They))) are the disease.

(((They))) are the ones who benefit from this Clash of Civilisations.

(((They))) are playing their ancient game of divide and rule. (((They)) cannot help themselves.

Blogger Nobody In Particular October 01, 2016 3:27 PM  

Protestantism was the original heresy that culminated in Communism and atheism. Probably Henry VIII would have approved of Lenin desecrating churches, demolishing monasteries, and killing and torturing monks and priests who didn't submit to the state's authority, because that's also what he did. He set this precedent.
There's a pretty clear line from Cromwell to the American Revolution and the Jacobins to Lenin and Mao. They were all motivated by the same spirit of protest.
The Netherlands played an important part in the Enlightenment, because many radical pamphlets could only be printed there and then smuggled elsewhere. Freedom of worship was probably first implemented in America. Anticlericalism used to be a basic Protestant idea and was encouraged by people like Bismark.
Protestantism also contained some extreme left movements, like Anabaptism (and many others not as extreme), but it became less extreme with time. Nowadays mainline Protestantism is pretty much indistinguishable from Catholicism.
Isn't it funny how Protestants killed and banned Catholic priests and bishops and forbade elaborate church rituals only to replace them later with their own priests and bishops and elaborate church rituals. It's almost as if, after railing against the evils of capitalism for 80 years, communists later just gave up on communism and became capitalists themselves, but with themselves firmly in control.
The Soviets also started with some exotic ideas about art, society, and sexuality, but Stalin put an end to most of it. Probably the American communists, once they have managed to establish themselves as the dominant group and stamp out all opposition, will also tone it down substantially. At least the smart ones will.

Blogger Nobody In Particular October 01, 2016 3:27 PM  

The Western world has been eaten from the inside for 500 years by a spirit of contestation and rebellion (which may now be reaching its terminal phase). This has been the most prosperous time in its history, accompanied by an unprecedented flourishing of the arts, sciences, and engineering and by world domination. This probably shows that conflict, as long as it's not too destructive, leads to progress.
Judging by this history, the religious model that seems to work best is having an official (Britain, Soviet Union) or quasi-official (US, France, Germany) state religion, with a grudging toleration of religious minorities. Often the minorities have valuable contributions to make, as long as they don't take over the state. It's a fragile equilibrium: too little conflict leads to stagnation, too much openness leads to anarchy or worse.
Unfortunately, the Western world is much too open nowadays for its own good; probably it struck the ideal point 100-150 years ago and then shot past it. At some point it's really going to feel the consequences.

Anonymous Gen. Kong October 01, 2016 3:28 PM  

Were-Puppy wrote:Does this mean the first job at hand is to somehow uncuck the Church?

In a nutshell …. yes, at least for any actual Christians. It's damned tall order too. The majority of what is known as "Christianity" - even in the Banana Empire with its TV preachers and such - is Churchianity. The Catholic Church is owned by (((Soros))), whose dancing monkey sits on the papal throne. The Episcopalians and other so-called "mainline" denominations are no more Christian than L. Ron Hubbard's cult of thin-gruel Satanism is. Even so-called "conservatives" really worship Golden Dindu or (((Goldman-Sachs))). If Huntington's premise is correct, the west will likely fall as the Churchians far outnumber any Christians. In the EUSSR, the whole edifice of the church is completely converged. There might be a few isolated groups of actual Christians here and there but they are numerically less - by a significant number - than all the imported Musloids. So, the question is … exact how essential is it? If it's as essential as H. seems to be saying, the prospects are not very hopeful as the west is essentially disarmed at present.

Anonymous Unite or perish October 01, 2016 3:33 PM  

@91

This is the kind of boring rhetoric that is not needed. Very much not needed.

Anonymous Flavia October 01, 2016 3:33 PM  

Islam appears to be a perpetual motion machine:

1. Islamic women can only marry Islamic men
2. All children of Islamic fathers are Islamic
3. Converting to another religion incurs the death penalty

The 18th century missionaries labeled Muslims as "unconvertable."

There have been great Buddist societies but I strong one's today.

Is Confucianism actually a religion? How Confucian is post-Moa China? He wasn't a fan .

Blogger Gary October 01, 2016 3:38 PM  

@67 and many others,

'The west was already very strong before Christianity existed. How was that possible, if its decline now is an inevitable result of the decline of Christianity? I'm not an expert on history, but it seems to me that the ancient Greek and Roman era pre-Christian west was very strong, without Christianity.'

The Romans may have been strong, but they weren't good humans, they were evil. The Chinese today are strong and civilised, but they aren't good humans. America has been strong for 80 years, but they haven't been good humans.

Christianity does not just produce civilisation, it produces good civilisations, where children aren't abused (or terminated because they're female), murders aren't condoned, sodomy is viewed as abhorrent, and the law is fair and just, and upheld by God's appointee, the King. God's law is the ONLY good law, the only one ever to have existed.

Russia & Hungary represent modern examples of morality and a chance for Christianity to take hold.

Blogger VD October 01, 2016 3:41 PM  

I don't think anybody here believes that Central/South Americans, who are coming from societies which are much more "Christian" than the United States, or African Christians care about "The West".

See, this is the problem of opining in ignorance. If you had read the book being discussed, which you clearly haven't, then you would know that Latin America is its own civilization, an offshoot-civilization of the West that is not the West.

Given your observations here and in The Irrational Atheist -- with which I agree -- that religion does not, and historically has not, been a common cause of war, the idea that a religion is basic to a civilization and its defense seems to be contradictory.

Most wars are not civilization-level.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 01, 2016 3:42 PM  

Can religion mean interests and not just values?

Blogger Robert What? October 01, 2016 3:42 PM  

Vox, would you believe that I (an American Jewish guy) totally agree with your four points? I don't know how many there are like me. Probably more than you think. But I've always been considered """special""" ;-)

Blogger S1AL October 01, 2016 3:44 PM  

"Protestantism was the original heresy that culminated in Communism and atheism."

Your grasp of history doesn't even meet the level of Wikipedia. The rest of your comment is not worth a response.

Blogger Escoffier October 01, 2016 3:49 PM  

To all those who wonder how the West can return to Christianity at this late date I will say this: all you've ever seen is the fake dead thing. I can totally understand why you would look at that with contempt. It is contemptible, but there is a living thing filled with power. It's like debating the value or utility of a computer if you've never seen the thing turned on. The true test of Christianity, per the Bible, is power, lacking that it is merely Churchianity.

Blogger Escoffier October 01, 2016 3:52 PM  

Gen. Kong wrote:Were-Puppy wrote:Does this mean the first job at hand is to somehow uncuck the Church?

In a nutshell …. yes, at least for any actual Christians. It's damned tall order too. The majority of what is known as "Christianity" - even in the Banana Empire with its TV preachers and such - is Churchianity. The Catholic Church is owned by (((Soros))), whose dancing monkey sits on the papal throne. The Episcopalians and other so-called "mainline" denominations are no more Christian than L. Ron Hubbard's cult of thin-gruel Satanism is. Even so-called "conservatives" really worship Golden Dindu or (((Goldman-Sachs))). If Huntington's premise is correct, the west will likely fall as the Churchians far outnumber any Christians. In the EUSSR, the whole edifice of the church is completely converged. There might be a few isolated groups of actual Christians here and there but they are numerically less - by a significant number - than all the imported Musloids. So, the question is … exact how essential is it? If it's as essential as H. seems to be saying, the prospects are not very hopeful as the west is essentially disarmed at present.


Absolutely not. Walk away. God hates the stench of dead things. Be the body in your home. Get your family in right order. Wash your Wife and children in the word and be ready for the Ekklesia as a gathering of Patriarchs as Christ intended.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 01, 2016 3:56 PM  

@99
Robert What?, every Gaussian has tails. You are saying "Not All Jews Are Like That" and it's true. It's even sad.

Most American Jews support gun confiscation. Some do not. Zelman found JPFO, as a Jew explicitly concerned with preserving the right to keep and bear arms. He never got much money from his fellow Jews, though they were always happy to donate to the ADL, SPLC and other gun-banning groups.

So if I'm in a group of 100 gun owners, and someone bitches about the "damned gun-grabbing Jews" there might be 1 man there who is both Jewish and pro-gun. He won't really change the fact that his religious community is all about disarming the rest of us.

For years I never understood why Jews in the US are so hoplophobic, when the kibbutzim went armed almost all the time, etc. but viewing Jews as perpetual migrants who fear pogroms and not tyranny clears it all up for me.

Disarming the Cossacks so they can't carry out a pogrom is GOOD, but if the government turns tyrannical y'all can just move on.

How this dynamic played out in the Holdomor, where Jewish Chekists murdered millions of Ukranian Christians in a variety of ways is a darker question.

Anyway, it's ok for you to be on our side, just don't be surprised when your own people renounce you and denounce you.

Blogger tz October 01, 2016 3:57 PM  

Freedom of religion is another broken term. There is a right to believe what you want about God inside, but you must act outwardly as if you were a Christian. Mormons are theologically remote, but seem near the ideal in their families and in public. A patriarchy with taboos against cronyism and corruption (Saddam Hussein said only Christians could be trusted), and the desire for large families in permanent marriages is needed - so push revival.

You might try to find a 5-SD Aborigine to make a doctor, but there are many more qualified Ashkenazi.

You find few Atheists acting like John Galt. You find far more Christians who want to be personally independent and self-sufficient and would give wisely and freely, but avoid asking except in extremis.

The West could only be self-governing when persons governed themselves.

Blogger Nobody In Particular October 01, 2016 4:00 PM  

S1AL wrote:"Protestantism was the original heresy that culminated in Communism and atheism."

Your grasp of history doesn't even meet the level of Wikipedia. The rest of your comment is not worth a response.

To rephrase what I said: without Jan Hus and Cromwell there would have been no Marx and Lenin. To me, this is blindingly obvious. I also listed some concrete arguments.
As I also wrote, maybe there is some argument to be made that it was worth it. This is all part of what made the European civilization so unique. It's too early to tell how it will all end.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) October 01, 2016 4:00 PM  

Can religion mean interests and not just values?

No

Anonymous GreyS October 01, 2016 4:01 PM  

Abortion doesn't matter.

Easy to say when you were not aborted.

No--- It matters quite a lot. When a nation's leading cause of death is killing of it's own babies, something is terribly wrong. It shows that we are nowhere near as Christian a nation as we think we are and far from being able to reverse the current decline. We export and promote abortion to the world-- and even withhold financial assistance to countries who don't allow us to promote it in their cultures. We have a huge porn industry and export and promote porn around the world. We invade countries, overthrow governments, occupy lands worldwide. All while pridefully touting ourselves as a Christian nation. And sure, there are (((certain people))) who largely dominate and coordinate these activities, but we Christians gave them the chance and the power to do so and let it go on.

America was founded by (mostly) Christians as a post-Christian Nation because of trouble and persecution from other Christians and Christian governments. Making it non-specific and non-state religion they figured would work out pretty well because the people were mostly a Christian people. But as time went on the people were gradually becoming more secular and the huge influx of jews from Eastern Europe, who have been actively working to destroy the Christian culture ever since, it is now almost impossible to get back to a place where Christianity can rule the nation. And perhaps far from receiving God's grace to do so.

Blogger S1AL October 01, 2016 4:01 PM  

--""Jefferson used certain passages of the New Testament to compose The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth (the "Jefferson Bible"), which excluded any miracles by Jesus and stressed his moral message. "

Jefferson was probably a UU of some kind. he described him self as Unitarian, Materialist, Epicurian and a few other things . He also opposed Trinitarianism! "--

Wiki is wrong. The PDF is available online, and contains at least one miracle which I am aware (the healing of the man's hand on the Sabbath). Jefferson did remove many of the supernatural elements, for reasons he explained in other sources. One of them was that he wanted compare the philosophy of Jesus alongside that of the other world religions, and felt that the miracles distracted from that.

As to God other heterodox beliefs, I'd have to confirm or contradict them using sources I don't have at hand. But it's worth nothing that "deism" was used by Jefferson, definitively, as equivalent to "monotheism".

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) October 01, 2016 4:02 PM  

See, this is the problem of opining in ignorance. If you had read the book being discussed, which you clearly haven't, then you would know that Latin America is its own civilization, an offshoot-civilization of the West that is not the West.

You don't even really need to have read the book to know that. Vox has written about this in at least one recent post.

Blogger tz October 01, 2016 4:02 PM  

@101 Scripture says how to become spiritually powerful, but it is faith which can move mountains.
We really don't believe so we don't fast and pray and ask for more faith, so it never reaches critical mass.
Or we fast and pray for base or bestial things.
You might conclude that America will never humble itself. But it is backward - petition God to humble America.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) October 01, 2016 4:04 PM  

To rephrase what I said: without Jan Hus and Cromwell there would have been no Marx and Lenin. To me, this is blindingly obvious. I also listed some concrete arguments.

And yet the protestant countries resisted communism and socialism much more successfully than the catholic/orthodox countries did.

Blogger tz October 01, 2016 4:04 PM  

@108 David Barton wrote a whole book

Blogger S1AL October 01, 2016 4:06 PM  

"To rephrase what I said: without Jan Hus and Cromwell there would have been no Marx and Lenin."

Actually, you complained about Henry VIII, this demonstrating that you don't understand how fundamentally different the actual Protestant reformers were from Anglicans. Or that Hus predates the Protestants. As do the Anabaptists. And there were a plurality of heresies before them - indeed, the Orthodox churches have varying views on whether or not the RCC is heretical in some areas.

Not to mention that Luther, Calvin, Wesley, and Zwingli would all be aghast the notion that there are related to Socialism, which can actually be more accurately traced to Catholics in France (who predated Marx by over a century).

Blogger S1AL October 01, 2016 4:07 PM  

--"@108 David Barton wrote a whole book"--

Thanks, that was one of the sources that first exposed me to how maliciously his legacy had been twisted. I don't have a copy on me, but it's a fascinating read.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) October 01, 2016 4:12 PM  

Thomas Nelson pulled The Jefferson Lies from publication because it was inaccurate. Just FYI.

Anonymous Gordian October 01, 2016 4:13 PM  

@105 The problem with your argument of Luther -> Hegel -> Marx is that you're skipping a vital step. It actually goes:
Luther -> French Revolution -> Hegel -> Marx. Hegel says that what inspired him to change from a Lutheran theologian to a political philosopher was the sight of Napoleon marching through Germany, and the vision that the French Revolution was the movement of the true divine in the world. Good luck pinning the French Revolution on Protestants; the Huguenots were long gone by the time of the Revolution.

Anonymous Mr. Rational October 01, 2016 4:15 PM  

johnc wrote:This is why atheists don't get to play government after the revolution. Basic morality is lost on too many of them.
This is why religious fanatics need to be kept out of government after the revolution.  You confront them with irrefutable facts proving that their "basic morality" is a new-fangled invention and was wholly ignored for most of the time the USA was making itself great, and they double down.

Being able to understand and employ counter-factuals should be a requirement for voting.  People who cannot think yield bad government.

Nobody In Particular wrote:Protestantism was the original heresy that culminated in Communism and atheism.
So what were the Gnostics, Monophysites, etc. again?

I quit believing at 14 and never studied any of this, yet I'm still more knowledgeable than some of the fanatics.  If you told me this 5 years ago I never would have believed it.

Blogger guest October 01, 2016 4:16 PM  

I agree with all four points. Nevertheless, the heart of America is in no way conditioned for restoration. It is completely given over to suicides and abortions on demand, atheism, and materialism. The young and old alike blatantly demand lies and will not stomach the truth. The time for a final Jubilee has come "Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. "

Blogger S1AL October 01, 2016 4:18 PM  

--"Thomas Nelson pulled The Jefferson Lies from publication because it was inaccurate. Just FYI."--

Granted, I should have noted that. However, the secondary sources on the subject do indicate that a great proton of Jefferson's legacy was twisted as described.

Anonymous Satan's Hamster October 01, 2016 4:19 PM  

"People have kids because everyone else is doing it or they like kids or sometimes in response to attempted genocide (c.f Timor Leste) to preserve a society"

I think economics explains a lot about the decline in family size.

When our ancestors lived on farms, a kid was a financial benefit. A farmer with six kids could do more work than a farmer with five kids, and the kids could start contributing to the farm at an early age. So, up to a point, a large family was financially beneficial.

Today, for an urban middle-class couple, kids are a financial liability. With the growth of credentialism demanding that even burger flippers have advanced degrees, parents will probably be supporting their kids for the best part of thirty years before they can contribute much of anything to anything. Even then, they'll probably move out and leave the parents with nothing but a huge hole in their savings.

So, in urban areas, you end up with some couples having small families, many couples having no kids, and pretty much only those on welfare having large families, because another kid means they get more welfare.

Find a way to turn those kids into a financial benefit rather than a liability, and you'll see a lot more kids even if nothing else changes. Telling people 'you must have lots of kids' doesn't really work if that means they'll be living in poverty as a consequence.

Blogger papabear October 01, 2016 4:20 PM  

"Buddhism is not associated with a specific civilization but was very prevalent in a few (Chinese and Indian subcontinent). I seem to recall in reading that it did not seem at odds with Christianity in a lot of ways, though I am not an expert in practical application of Buddhism."

Buddhists, because of government patronage, were involved in the persecution of the Assyrian Church in China.

Blogger S1AL October 01, 2016 4:21 PM  

*great portion

Blogger VD October 01, 2016 4:24 PM  

This is why religious fanatics need to be kept out of government after the revolution.

Don't be ridiculous. You can't appeal to history and ignore the fact that no group in the entire written history of Man has a worse track record in power than atheists.

Even a halfway-sensible atheist should be willing to fight to keep a fellow atheist out of power.

Anonymous CatholicOne October 01, 2016 4:27 PM  

All four points hit the mark. Most Western governments have adopted a "neutral" position regarding religion, but in practice it's anti-Christian and anti-theism. A "neutral" position becomes an official secular position. I'm interested to see the details of point 4, but I would say that at a minimum, Sharia should be treated like communism was during the Cold War.

Anonymous Unite or perish October 01, 2016 4:29 PM  

@105

To rephrase what I said: without Jan Hus and Cromwell there would have been no Marx and Lenin. To me, this is blindingly obvious.


Is this testable? Not without a time machine.

Is this actionable? No, the religious wars ended in stalemate.

So this is mental masturbation and bad rhetoric.

Anonymous Gen. Kong October 01, 2016 4:33 PM  

GreyS:
We have a huge porn industry and export and promote porn around the world. We invade countries, overthrow governments, occupy lands worldwide. All while pridefully touting ourselves as a Christian nation. And sure, there are (((certain people))) who largely dominate and coordinate these activities, but we Christians gave them the chance and the power to do so and let it go on.

All very true about the Banana Empire homeland. Even so, if you went to the pulpit of even most "conservative, bible-believing" churches and mentioned (((certain people))) and their control of media, the abortion, and porn industries alike, you'd be expelled in short order. The 'conservative' wing of churchianity holds that (((certain people))) have his special path to salvation just for them (though not many will come out and openly state this heresy so bluntly). You know who all the flags were at half-staff for in the Banana Empire yesterday? The deceased leader of a foreign power - Shimon Peres.

Anonymous Roundtine October 01, 2016 4:38 PM  

And yet the protestant countries resisted communism and socialism much more successfully than the catholic/orthodox countries did.

'TIME" MARCH 16, 1942 - PAGE 44

AMERICAN MALVERN

These are the high spots of organized U.S. Protestantism's super-Protestant new program for a just and durable peace after World War II:

* Ultimately, "a world government of delegated powers."

* Complete abandonment of US. isolationism.

* Strong immediate limitations on national sovereignty.

* International control of all armies & navies.

* “A universal system of money. . so planned as to prevent inflation and deflation."

* Worldwide freedom of immigration.

* Progressive elimination of all tariff quota restrictions on world trade.

* "Autonomy for all subject and colonial peoples" (with much better treatment for Negroes in the U.S).

* "No punitive reparations, no humiliating decrees of war guilt, no arbitrary dismembennent of nations."

* A "democratically controlled" international bank "to make development capital available in all parts of the world without the predatory and imperialistic after-math so characteristic of large-scale private and governmental loans."

This program was adopted last week by 375 appointed representatives of 3O-odd denominations called together at Ohio Wesleyan University by the Federal Council of Churches. Every local Protestant church in the country will now be urged to get behind the program "As Christian citizens," its sponsors affirmed, "we must seek to translate our beliefs into practical realities and to create a public opinion which will insure that the United States shall play its full and essential part in the creation of a moral way of international living."

Among the 375 delegates who drafted the program were 15 bishops of five de-nominations, seven seminary heads (including Yale, Chicago, Princeton, Colgate-Rochester), eight college and university presidents (including Princeton's Harold W. Dodds), practically all the ranking officials of the Federal Council and a group of well-known laymen, including John R. Mott, Irving Fisher and Harvey S. Firestone Jr.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper October 01, 2016 4:43 PM  

johnc wrote:There were essentially no restrictions on abortion for the USA's first century, and the high rate of abortion among Af-Ams is one of the biggest eugenic and eucivic forces operating now. The high rate of abortion of Down fetuses saves a lot of SPED costs too (though I suspect that public schooling may NEED to collapse in order to eliminate the fanatical egalitarianism behind the crop of laws killing the education part, as opposed to the indoctrination part).

This is why atheists don't get to play government after the revolution. Basic morality is lost on too many of them.




Basic Christian morality you mean. There are other systems.

Anyway Christians may not get to govern anyway outside their own areas .A Greater West requires them to be sure, a smaller one does not.

Don't assume that the rest, the vast majority of people want what you are offering or will tolerate being ruled by your ideas. There is a very good chance of dissolution anyway . You'll have your areas and the rest will have theirs

And don't blame ((them)) for it all, divide and rule has been around forever. White people are the biggest promoters of Cultural Marxism and immigration. The Cathedral is Christian basically other than its sexual degeneracy

Blame people on the Right for eschewing power if anything.

Till this happens though, no guns aimed Rightward on any issue whatsoever. Minos Out, Border closed , Birth Rate -- internal right wing civil conflict after.

Anonymous Unite or perish October 01, 2016 4:43 PM  

@127

Some Christians failed the "in the world but not of the world" test.
This is not news. Many are failing that test today, inviting the whole world to come feast on nations that used to be Christian.

None of that negates the power of God.

Blogger The Other Robot October 01, 2016 4:51 PM  

Even a halfway-sensible atheist should be willing to fight to keep a fellow atheist out of power.

If by that you are referring to people like Dawkins, then yes.

People like him have not really understood the gene/culture co-evolution thing very well, and religion is a very big part of culture, and from where I sit Christianity is much more congenial than the Persian-derived one(s).

Blogger Nobody In Particular October 01, 2016 4:56 PM  

S1AL wrote:
Actually, you complained about Henry VIII, this demonstrating that you don't understand how fundamentally different the actual Protestant reformers were from Anglicans.


Yes, I am aware that Luther was against the more radical Protestants, such as Anabaptists. However, to me this is like locking the barn door after the horse already got out.
And the Anglicans were Protestants, they adopted a Protestant catechism --- or are you saying that they weren't true Scotsmen? What is your Platonic ideal of a Protestant and how much do Anglicans fall short?
Protestants established the precedent that rebellion against authority, even in the most important matters (such as spiritual salvation), can be legitimate. Then how much easier is it to rebel against a purely temporal authority?
Both the Jacobins and the communists admired Cromwell (not unreservedly, for the communists) and saw in him a hero because he beheaded Charles I. I think Cromwell also counts as a predecessor for the American Revolution and influenced it in an obvious way.
Both the Hussite rebellion and the German Peasant War were considered as precursors by the communists, with good reason (especially for the latter). Same with the Lollards.
Later, revolutionaries were tolerated in Netherlands (which were themselves the result of a revolution against Spanish rule). This really destabilized the French Ancien Regime. All the volunteers who returned from fighting the American Revolution to France couldn't have helped either.
The persecution of Huguenots in France was only ended by the French Revolution (didn't know this one, had to look it up, but it makes sense).
I am not saying that Protestants were Jacobins, atheists or Communists, but that Protestantism made it easier for those later ideologies to flourish. To give an imperfect analogy: it's just as the sexual revolution of the 60's led to the legalization of homosexual marriage, even though most hippies back then weren't homosexuals.
PS I know that there were all sorts of heresies before Protestantism, but none was as successful (from all points of view).

Anonymous Unite or perish October 01, 2016 5:02 PM  

@131

So what? Do you have a point besides engaging in your mental masturbation in public?

What's your point?

Anonymous johnc October 01, 2016 5:15 PM  

Basic Christian morality you mean. There are other systems.

Yes, like the ones doing wonders in Africa.

And the Anglicans were Protestants, they adopted a Protestant catechism --- or are you saying that they weren't true Scotsmen? What is your Platonic ideal of a Protestant and how much do Anglicans fall short?

I strongly disagree. A key tenet of Protestantism is anti-clericalism. Henry VIII initially suppressed Protestantism.

The Church of England was at first considered in schism, but not heresy. It was essentially a copy of the RCC but the king made himself the pope. A complete joke of a religion based purely on how it was "founded" and then forced on everyone by law, but not Protestant and did not spring from the (incorrectly named) "Reformation".

Blogger ZhukovG October 01, 2016 5:18 PM  

Based on some of the posts made by my fellow Roman Catholics; I think Catholics should also be kept far from the levers of power.

But I think that once the Civil Rights Act is repealed most of these problems with certain sects will diminish dramatically.

Blogger Nobody In Particular October 01, 2016 5:19 PM  

Protestantism was the original heresy that culminated in Communism and atheism.

So what were the Gnostics, Monophysites, etc. again?

Well, all those other sects died down or at least never achieved too much influence (though an argument can be made that Mohamed was influenced by Christian heresies or that e.g. there still survived some Cathars in France who enthusiastically converted to Calvinism).
At least for myself, I can only trace back Communism to Protestantism in a direct line. If you think you can trace it back further, go ahead.
To be honest, Christianity itself had a similarly revolutionary and disruptive effect in the Roman Empire before it became the state religion. However, I cannot see any direct line from e.g. Donatism to Protestantism. Thus Huss and Wycliffe are as far as I go.

Anonymous Helton Strom October 01, 2016 5:21 PM  

Related question: If the US were to pass a "preserve western culture Amendment," what bullet-points would it have?

1) Declare Islam an incompatible and prohibited political ideology, strip it of tax exempt benefits, prohibit practitioners and supporters from immigrating, etc.;
2) Clarify that the 1st amendment protections are specifically for sects of Christianity;
3) clarify that birth citizenship is only granted to children born to parents who are BOTH legally within the borders AND married;
4) Prohibit any welfare benefits to first-generation immigrants, and children of immigrants unless their parents are working and pay net taxes;
5) Allow expedited deportation for non-citizens;
6) Allow for expedited execution of illegal immigrants that commit crimes against natural born citizens;
7) Prohibit immigration to anyone not fluent in English
8) Allow reparations to the descendants of African slaves, which includes a one-time $100,000 cash payment, a one-way ticket to the African nation of their choice and a permanent repudiation of their American citizenship (and any slave descendent who did not take the offer became ineligible for hiring preferences);

9) anything else?

Just spit-balling ideas, here, folks.

Blogger Gary October 01, 2016 5:25 PM  

@132

His point is clear. Man is weak and hates authority, starting with God's in the Garden of Eden and continues to this day.
I see no need to repeat his very clear points. You must be dull to not see that man needs God, or he is doomed to Satan's nihilism. That is his point.

Blogger Mark Butterworth October 01, 2016 5:25 PM  

Religion is essential to a civilization. Christianity is essential to the West. There’s simply no replacing it.

The question becomes what kind of Christianity will work for the West in the future? Certainly, not what we have going now, although the revival of the Orthodox Church in Putin’s Russia might seem encouraging to some. That revival, though, is a form of nostalgia, sentimentality, nationalism, and opportunism.

That (dubious) revival cannot carry Orthodoxy over the shoals of critical skepticism of the Bible and most of its basic elements: a compendium of myths, fairy tales, Just So stories, plagiarism, false (and agenda driven) history, absurdities, and plain nonsense (in places) obscuring its most profound Truth.

There are three ways I see Christianity proceeding: like Hinduism in allowing for a wide variety of sects or semi-cults, varieties of practice, worship, and adherence (which the Catholic Church also allowed with its variety of orders) all subsumed by an overlying nationalism (and racialism).

Like Buddhism, with an overlying cosmology and moral system that requires little in terms of worship by the masses, but concentrates practice on a privileged monastic and priestly class.

Or like a reformed Church, as radically altered as Luther changed it 500 years ago. A jettison of baggage such as sola scriptura to remain only sola fide (which may manifest itself in sacramental forms, monastic forms, open theology, ‘simple’ iconoclastic and puritan forms, and atavistic forms).

What is certain is that Christianity can’t remain as it is. It has lost energy and force as a reason to be.

Blogger JWM October 01, 2016 5:36 PM  

We don't need to ban islam. We need to strip it of first amendment protection. Forbid any islamic immigration, and actively encourage discrimination against moslems just like we did with communists in the 50's. They can leave if they don't like it. Any organization even nominally islamic should be under the same kind of scrutiny that Nazis and the pathetic remnant of the KKK receive today. The IRS could and should keep moslem feet to the fire exactly the way they do organized crime. Socially, it needs to be treated exactly as communism was treated in the 1950's. "Commie" was once a slur as powerful as "nigger" is today. I have a book entitled "Year 1951" It's a collection of major newspaper headlines, articles and cartoons. The anti- communist rhetoric seems almost comically heavy handed now, but that's just how things were. In a media saturated culture like ours it would not be difficult to effect this shift in cultural perspective. But the media as it stands is our number one enemy. Take control of the megaphone, and you take control of the culture.

JWM

Blogger VFM #7634 October 01, 2016 5:37 PM  

There is considerably more that can be concluded from this particular perspective, but I expect most people, even of an Alt-West persuasion, will struggle to accept just those four inescapable conclusions.

Hilaire Belloc made the exact same points about the survival of "Europe" (what he used to mean the West).

In the case of the Catholic Church, of course, that requires a delegitimization and derecognition of the last six Vatican II antipopes going back to John XXIII, who have all been anti-West and anti-Catholic. Unless and until this happens, Catholicism will be utterly impotent.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper October 01, 2016 5:38 PM  

Helton Strom wrote:Related question: If the US were to pass a "preserve western culture Amendment," what bullet-points would it have?

1) Declare Islam an incompatible and prohibited political ideology, strip it of tax exempt benefits, prohibit practitioners and supporters from immigrating, etc.;

2) Clarify that the 1st amendment protections are specifically for sects of Christianity;

SNIP


Most of these are doctrinaire Republican idea but #1 is practical only to a degree. Islam will happily practice Taqiyah claim to be some other religion and mole in. I'd prefer to simply disallow any new non western immigrants , period or at most a very small number

#2 there is a no go. The US does not need to be a theocracy, we don't need another 30 years war when someone decides that some other sect is not actually Christian. The inevitable pogroms would be worse by far than the uneasy peace

Anonymous Unite or perish October 01, 2016 5:40 PM  

@137

His point is clear. Man is weak and hates authority, starting with God's in the Garden of Eden and continues to this day.


That isn't what he is saying. Try reading for meaning.

His point is "Protestants BAD!" which poor rhetoric and stupid politics. It's the mirror version of Jack Chick.

I can see "Rome or Die" types like him and Jack Chick type Prots in a bunker shooting at each other while ISIS overruns their position and eventually beheads everyone.

It is stupid. Perhaps you are too.

Blogger dienw October 01, 2016 5:44 PM  

Or like a reformed Church, as radically altered as Luther changed it 500 years ago. A jettison of baggage such as sola scriptura to remain only sola fide (which may manifest itself in sacramental forms, monastic forms, open theology, ‘simple’ iconoclastic and puritan forms, and atavistic forms).

No. Ten thousand times no. You might as well ask us to go full bore pagan Roman Catholic. This will start a religious war.

Atheist or foolish comments without understanding will split the alt-right even before it solidifies.

Anonymous GreyS October 01, 2016 5:47 PM  

This is why religious fanatics need to be kept out of government after the revolution. You confront them with irrefutable facts proving that their "basic morality" is a new-fangled invention and was wholly ignored for most of the time the USA was making itself great, and they double down.

Being able to understand and employ counter-factuals should be a requirement for voting. People who cannot think yield bad government.


All you did was say 1- "There were no restrictions on abortion in America for a long while" 2- "It helps society to have a bunch of blacks aborted" and 3- "It saves schools money when down syndrome kids are killed before they are born. Then you act as if you made this great argument against having religious folks in government.

1- Christians have been fighting abortions for centuries and it is only in the last few decades where great swaths of children are being culled from society.

2- The great number of abortions in the black communities leads to unrest and trouble in those communities because it promotes rootless males with no responsibility or interest in much more than easy sex and looking for trouble. It also promotes fatherless families. The mothers only abort some of the babies and raise the rest as single mothers.

3- You may have something here. We could go into the schools and identify those children with Aspy Atheist tendencies and youth-a-nize them. Heck, it would save quite a bit of $ on those special programs they always have to go to and save society a lot of trouble in the future.

Atheists' lack of respect for human life is at the heart of the problems that ensue when they are in government at all, let alone in total control of power-- disaster inevitably awaits atheist states.

Blogger VFM #7634 October 01, 2016 5:49 PM  

@141 A.B. Prosper

Islam will happily practice Taqiyah claim to be some other religion and mole in.

Islam tends to be as subtle as an anvil on the foot. They may try taqiyyah, but only in the context that everyone knows they're out, loud, and proud hajjis. They'll just try to make themselves out as peaceful, tolerant hajjis.

#2 there is a no go. The US does not need to be a theocracy, we don't need another 30 years war when someone decides that some other sect is not actually Christian. The inevitable pogroms would be worse by far than the uneasy peace

I suppose that might be a problem, especially when considering Mormons or JWs. (Although some sects such as Unitarian Universalism can be safely banned as SJW cults.)

Anonymous Gen. Kong October 01, 2016 5:49 PM  

@127. Roundtime.

That's kind of an important document as it's really the poison pill for any church who signed onto it. in fact, all churches who signed this document should be excommunicated along with all their leaders and members. Vatican II basically did the same for Catholicism - which is why its destruction has been delayed. Though its plummet under the present abomination sitting on the throne in Rome is looking to be very rapid and dramatic indeed. The Federal Council of Churches was the predecessor to the National Council of Churches of today. The NCC itself is part of the World Council of Churches. A look at the listing of members reveals quite a number of Orthodox groups, so the notion that the Orthodox are somehow immune from this SJW convergence is clearly nonsense.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper October 01, 2016 5:49 PM  

Mark Butterworth wrote:Religion is essential to a civilization. Christianity is essential to the West. There’s simply no replacing it.

SNIP

What is certain is that Christianity can’t remain as it is. It has lost energy and force as a reason to be.


No its nor essential to the survival of the West. Its essential to the grandeur of the West which is a big difference. we as peoples can survive just fine on custom, nationalism and so on so long as well close our borders and repel foreigners

Every time we try and create some giant empire, religious, mercantile, ideological, it kills us. In the past it lasted a long long time but modern empires implode faster and faster

We need to stop trying to be so grandiose and just be ourselves, relax be strong and enjoy life

And yes this means no one will probably go to the moon or any of that stuff and the The west won't be anything special. Oh well.

Blogger Gary October 01, 2016 5:52 PM  

@142

'It is stupid. Perhaps you are too.'

You sound full of fury.

Follow the bible, keep it simple, pray.

Blogger VFM #7634 October 01, 2016 5:52 PM  

And yes this means no one will probably go to the moon or any of that stuff and the The west won't be anything special. Oh well.

That would require being a stable nation-state that isn't SJW converged. The USA was doing well enough in its space program until the early 1970s.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 01, 2016 5:54 PM  

It needs to be reformed because it's "values" based existence is being bent over by people with interests.

Ram Z Paul had it right 'Murkan politics are a religion

Blogger Gary October 01, 2016 5:59 PM  

@147

'No its nor essential to the survival of the West. Its essential to the grandeur of the West which is a big difference. we as peoples can survive just fine on custom, nationalism and so on so long as well close our borders and repel foreigners'

You ought to read Irrational Atheist, because you are one.

Blogger Cataline Sergius October 01, 2016 6:04 PM  

And now to kick the beehive.

The Mormons claim to be Christian but from a clinical perspective they are Trinity denying polytheists. Those are not Christian tenets.

And yet they appear to be the most solid bet for surviving the Fall as a culture that most resembles a healthy Western civilization.

To an outsider (which I am), the Mormon Church appears to be not only quite healthy but is clearly expanding.

Or am I wrong?

Blogger John Williams October 01, 2016 6:11 PM  

The religious freedom the US was founded on was the right to freely worship Jesus Christ. The intent wasn't cart blanch for every belief system imaginable.

Anonymous Unite or perish October 01, 2016 6:13 PM  

@148

'It is stupid. Perhaps you are too.'

You sound full of fury.


You are not listening to me. Perhaps your "Rome or Die" buddy has clogged up your ears?

Follow the bible, keep it simple, pray.

That's what I'm urging.

Your "Rome or Die" buddy is saying something else.

Choose unity in Christ or perish. That is my advice to you, and your "Rome or Die" buddy too.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 01, 2016 6:19 PM  

That would require being a stable nation-state that isn't SJW converged. The USA was doing well enough in its space program until the early 1970s.

The Russians and Chinese are making noises about a return to the Moon. Space X boosters are getting closer to that point.

Agree that a nation not SJW converged could do a lot in space, and under the sea. Carrying an ever increasing burden of gimmedats from around the globe makes this more and more difficult, and eventually impossible as the locusts devour the seed corn.

Churchianity with its emphasis on not just casting pearls before swine but stealing your neighbors pearls and casting them as well has much to answer for.

Blogger S1AL October 01, 2016 6:21 PM  

--"And the Anglicans were Protestants, they adopted a Protestant catechism --- or are you saying that they weren't true Scotsmen? What is your Platonic ideal of a Protestant and how much do Anglicans fall short?"--

No, they didn't. Barring the question of temporal power in the church, Anglicans are functionally Catholic. Even on the doctrine of sola scriptura they are *much* closer to the RCC than any Protestant denomination. This is easily verifiable.

Moreover, the great irony is that Henry VIII, in his quest to server tires with Rome, created a near copy of it; yet Luther, who wished reformation, ended up further afield. And even then, Lutheranism is at most a halfway point between the RCC and the typical Protestant denomination.

Something that Catholics never seem to understand is that Protestantism is a spectrum and a negative definition, not a definition into itself.

--"To an outsider (which I am), the Mormon Church appears to be not only quite healthy but is clearly expanding.

Or am I wrong?"--

There's a major distinction between what the Mormon laity is taught and the radical aspects of their religion.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper October 01, 2016 6:35 PM  

Gary wrote:@147

'No its nor essential to the survival of the West. Its essential to the grandeur of the West which is a big difference. we as peoples can survive just fine on custom, nationalism and so on so long as well close our borders and repel foreigners'

You ought to read Irrational Atheist, because you are one.



That is categorically false. My religious views are complex and none of your business anyway.

In any case Christianity is nearly done in Europe, dead and buried and what remains unconverged is a remnant. The US is a few years behind and by the time the .alt right gets power, it will probably be the same

Not one White Christian nation has a growing white population even of Christians and the East is in no better shape. Retention isn't good and churches are no longer needed

Oh and Cataline, re: the L.D.S. they are stagnant in population and any growth is in non Whites .Despite its social conservatism and its structure, retention and actual church going is not that good

The exception is Utah but its basically Israel for Mormons and has a self reinforcing loop, everyone has many kids, therefore I have many kids

This is not something that can be created elsewhere by fiat. It could happen organically as the baby Boom did but I have no way to produce it. Do also note the population incrase during the baby boom was mostly do to antibiotics and lower infant mortality. Basically after a decline from 1930's to early 40's the TFR went up to a level LOWER than it was prior to the decline however more survived early childhood and the population went up.

Also the suburban movement of the period allowed for a new "fake" rural land grab and pseudo rural populations. we won't get that and when the cheap energy runs low, peopel will probably end up urban and we'll have a massive popualtion decline

Its quite possible that the West struggles to get to say 2.2 manages it for a couple of decades, gets more urban than bricks to 1.6 again

TL;DR Christendom probably isn't coming back right away and may never come back even in a crash or apocalypse. Make plans to do without just in case.

In any case folks like Gray need to understand the difference between a modest civilization and a grand one. Sweden as an example if it were only filled with Swedes and had a tiny bit her TFR would be stable comfortable and work without religion. Many other societies can do the same in their own way. None of them will do many amazing things but oh well. they'll live and function and with good effort remain themselves

Blogger VFM #7634 October 01, 2016 6:36 PM  

@S1AL

There is no way Anglicans are Catholic.

If they were, they wouldn't have completely overhauled (mutilated) their sacraments, functionally abolished the sacrificial priesthood, or, with their Test Act, required all their public officials to take an oath denying transubstantiation.

That is solidly Protestant, and not in any way Catholic.

Blogger Tom Kratman October 01, 2016 6:37 PM  

"See, this is the problem of opining in ignorance. If you had read the book being discussed, which you clearly haven't, then you would know that Latin America is its own civilization, an offshoot-civilization of the West that is not the West."

Oh, I read the book, 12 or more years ago, IIRC. But I tend to disagree with Huntington about whether or not Latin civilization is part of western. I am inclined to think it is, from their own perspective, at least at the middle and upper class levels, which count (and perhaps not so much among the peasantry; remember, we don't get those upper and middle classes as illegal immigrants), but that we tend to see then and treat them as, frankly, retarded younger siblings. The difference between, say, ourselves and Argentina is probably not greater than the difference between the UK and Italy.

I don't recall that Sam ever really successfully defended putting them into their own civilization, nor even tried to, but took it as more or less self evident. I don't know, and really don't think, that it's all that self evident. They have some peculiarities, to be sure, in the classes under discussion, but those tend to be more modern events driven than civilizational. Chile, for example, is quite European, but had been radicalized by a swing-bust cycle driven by exports for foreign wars (nitrates, copper) and collapses when the wars ended. Argentina is similar, except it was beef and they're still radicalized. But then, one thinks of the period 1932 to 1944, here...

Another way to look at it is this: "If the Church found its balls and opened up recruiting stations all over Latin American for volunteers to fight in a new crusade, would Latin youth answer the call?" I believe that they would. And that, operating alone, would put them firmly in Western Christendom _as_western_Christendom_should_be_.

Blogger Nobody In Particular October 01, 2016 6:40 PM  

Unite or perish wrote:@105



To rephrase what I said: without Jan Hus and Cromwell there would have been no Marx and Lenin. To me, this is blindingly obvious.


Is this testable? Not without a time machine.

Is this actionable? No, the religious wars ended in stalemate.

So this is mental masturbation and bad rhetoric.


Is it testable? This was also pretty obvious to many people at the time, that a splintered Church could have all sorts of bad consequences (e.g. the Protestants stabbed the Hapsburgs in the back when they were fighting the Turks) and that Protestantism was mixed with some very dangerous ideas (the German Peasants' War, which Luther had to repudiate, suffices as a confirmation).

Is this actionable? I'm not the best person to ask.

Before the Anglican Church started ordinating women, there were talks about rapprochement with the Orthodox churches. However, ecumenicism of any kind has been really compromised, exactly by the ordination of women and openly gay people by the Anglicans. Lately, some Anglican parishes have gone over to the Catholic Church. Maybe that's a better solution (?).

I used to have a heroic image of Protestantism. Although I still think Protestantism has many good sides, my image of it has been adjusted.

Anyway, I personally don't have a good solution. If you have a good solution, I would like to hear it (or maybe not, if the implementation needs to be secret).

Blogger yoghi.llama October 01, 2016 6:40 PM  

Pseudotsuga wrote:what is it in Buddhism that doesn't give rise to the nation-state as we know it?

The European nation-state as you know it is a great thing, but it is a late to post-Christian phenomenon.

Rattnakosin Thailand fended off European colonialism in part by having a strong Buddhist identity.

Tibet and Japan were two Asian nation-states which were economically self-sufficient, and very difficult for foreigners to subvert or infiltrate for prolonged periods. They were staunchly Buddhist in those times.

Blogger ZhukovG October 01, 2016 6:40 PM  

@Tom Kratman: I wondered if anyone would mention Argentina. Which, if memory serves, is more White European than the United States.

Anonymous Roundtine October 01, 2016 6:45 PM  

@146

That's kind of an important document as it's really the poison pill for any church who signed onto it.

The old battle lines are gone. There are enemies and allies across the Catholic, Protestant and Eastern Orthodox churches.

@152

Considering how Protestants and Catholics used to be like Mormons, I'm not sure. If there's a problem with the theology I tend to think it will go off the rails at some point.

Anonymous Post Alley Crackpot October 01, 2016 6:46 PM  

Buddhism, rejecting the caste system, becoming the Alt-Right of Hinduism before Buddhism Went Its Own Way ...

What is the sound of one man voting with a ballot?

What is the sound of one Buddha voting with his feet?

What is the sound of the Bodhidharma on the campaign trail?

[sudden and stealthy head whack from several directions]

HA HA HA.

Grasshoppah need more training to avoid the ghazis and the neenjas next time! Pretty little tutus will not save Grasshoppah ass-hoppah again!

:-)

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 01, 2016 6:47 PM  

Chile, for example, is quite European, but had been radicalized by a swing-bust cycle driven by exports for foreign wars (nitrates, copper) and collapses when the wars ended.

Chile had an expat class of Anglos, many of the Scots.
As they are diluted, the IQ is reverting to the mean.

Argentina is similar, except it was beef and they're still radicalized. But then, one thinks of the period 1932 to 1944, here...

Argentina has a similar thing going on to Chile except the important expats tended to be German. Again reversion to the mean is already in progress. Argentina tends to be more European due to Italian and other immigrants back in the late 19th and early 20th century, but the birthrates matter.

The future of South America may look a lot more like Paraguay or Bolivia or worse yet Venezuela.

Because you can ignore the mestizos if it makes things easier for your analysis, but the fact of the matter is they make up the bulk of the population in many Latin countries and the bulk of the birthrate in the majority.

Anonymous Unite or perish October 01, 2016 6:50 PM  

@160
Anyway, I personally don't have a good solution.

Then what is your point?

Blogger Didact October 01, 2016 6:59 PM  

There is considerably more that can be concluded from this particular perspective, but I expect most people, even of an Alt-West persuasion, will struggle to accept just those four inescapable conclusions.

Not necessarily. I have no problem agreeing with all of those points, and I am not Christian or American. I simply have great love and respect for both Western civilisation and the Christian faith.

Both simple logic and empirical observation point to these conclusions as inescapably true, however unpleasant people may think them to be. The fact remains that Western civilisation is whitecivilisation, and white civilisation has historically been Christian in nature for well over a thousand years. There are exceptions but they remain few, far between, and relegated mostly to the period between 600 and 1000AD.

Interestingly, Tom Kratman wrote an entire book wrapped around the concept of bringing a religious gun to a gunfight between faiths. The Tuloriad isn't just a great read, it's also a very sober assessment of what happens when faiths clash, and why having faith on the side of your civilisation and worldview is so important.

The bottom line is that the West will not survive if it renounces Christianity. Already we are seeing the return of paganism in once-Christian lands. With the exception of the Norsemen, the ancient pagan faiths have had little to no contact with Islam in their past histories- and the Vikings dealt with the Islamic world by supplying it with the slaves and gold that it needed to sustain itself. As a result, they have absolutely no way of resisting the Koranic commands to convert, enslave, or destroy.

My own people know this better than most. My home country is a nation of pagans. Islam slaughtered anywhere between 50 and 80 million of us during its roughly five-century rule over us. In my country of origin, 20% of the population is Muslim- and the only reason why they stay in line, more or less, is because they are surrounded on all sides by their enemies, who have shown rather less than Christian mercy when it comes to doing unto others as it is done unto them.

If you bring the knife of paganism to the gunfight of the Abrahammic faiths, you should not be the least bit surprised to find yourself wiped out in short order.

Blogger Tom Kratman October 01, 2016 7:00 PM  

I didn't ignore them, I just mentioned that they are not that important, locally, for now, most places and times. However, mestizo has some interesting background. The legal rules the Spanish had do not seem to have been so interested in purity of blood as in predictability and dedication to culture. One could, in fact, be a Criollo, legally indistinguishable from a Peninsulare, with as much as an eighth indio blood.

Chile's anglos, while non-trivial, were a drop in the bucket compared to indio, Spaniard, and Basque. About 44% of the country's gene pool is indio and, quite despite this, they have perhaps the only really good cloned German Army. And, despite this, they've done pretty well being Europeans except when the fucked up economic cycles radicalized them.

Now the European element in Latin American may well be subsumed or disappear altogether. Or it may not, since women who have more kids, and some euro-descended women do, will tend to have kids who have more kids.

Blogger Tom Kratman October 01, 2016 7:01 PM  

Didact:

I think the left hates The Tuloriad even more than they hate most of my books.

Blogger Lazarus October 01, 2016 7:02 PM  

Nobody In Particular wrote:To rephrase what I said: without Jan Hus and Cromwell there would have been no Marx and Lenin. To me, this is blindingly obvious.

Without the blatant corruption of the Roman Catholic Church, there would have been no Hus or Cromwell.

How far back should we go with this?

Blogger Teri October 01, 2016 7:06 PM  

They expand because they send their young men on a quest. They have to explain and defend their faith well enough to convert others.

My husband's nephew is Mormon. His daughters all have families and seem very happy. One son is a Marine with a wife and baby. The other son just got back from a two year mission in Peru. We went to a temple to have another nephew's baby blessed. The church had children running around, like churches in the 50s. I could never become a Mormon, but they have managed to have a cohesive community.

Blogger S1AL October 01, 2016 7:10 PM  

--"There is no way Anglicans are Catholic.

If they were, they wouldn't have completely overhauled (mutilated) their sacraments, functionally abolished the sacrificial priesthood, or, with their Test Act, required all their public officials to take an oath denying transubstantiation.

That is solidly Protestant, and not in any way Catholic."--

Test Acts were repealed. I think you're going to find yourself in stark disagreement with traditional Anglicans, who themselves emphasize their ties to pre-Reformation Catholicism. Note that I said Catholicism, and not the RCC, the distinction of which actually gives me a splitting headache most the time.

Now, the more liberal groups are an entirely different story and have much more in common with Rob Bell style modern-day Sadducees. So I guess it's a high-church/low-church distinction that needs to be acknowledged. My familiarity is more with high-church, so coming from a Protestant background the closeness to Catholicism is very apparent to me.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper October 01, 2016 7:23 PM  

Didact wrote:There is considerably more that can be concluded from this particular perspective, but I expect most people, even of an Alt-West persuasion, will struggle to accept just those four inescapable conclusions.

SNIP
If you bring the knife of paganism to the gunfight of the Abrahammic faiths, you should not be the least bit surprised to find yourself wiped out in short order.


Is there any evidence whatsoever for a Christian revival in the West ?

Lost of nations are still nominally Christian like say Finland , its 75% Christian but about one person in 25 goes to church on a regular occasion. Its not helping

maybe we are just going to have to find a creative way to do without that old meme. Find a way to war with Abrahmic faith vs Abrahmic faith

Also Pagans have one strength that good Christians lack, the ability to operate without moral foundations.

If the West were willing to use its science for war it could obliterate Islam as a political threat . we simply lack the will to use what we've made . maybe this is a good thing I don't know but only a ruthless will and some development time is required.

Anonymous johnc October 01, 2016 7:28 PM  

The question becomes what kind of Christianity will work for the West in the future?

I don't think we can decide. It is something that is received from above. The servants can not tell the Master what Christianity is. The Master tells the servants the moral law, the teachings, the orders and the methods of worship that we are to obey and carry out. All of that is dictated by Him. We receive.

What is certain is that Christianity can’t remain as it is. It has lost energy and force as a reason to be.

The "energy and force" is the grace of God. Everything good comes from Him, right? That grace has quite obviously been withdrawn. We are in dire straights because God is extraordinarily pissed off.

BTW I read this interesting comment over at The Remnant this morning:

I haven't encountered any in a trash-can but I have seen literally hundreds of dismembered pre-born children being processed through the laboratory where I trained. In some of them it was possible to discern "defensive injuries" where the frightened children put up their arms and legs to protect themselves prior to these arms and legs being violently torn off! One full-term boy was murdered by the partial-birth abortion technique (and according to distressed nursing staff subsequently held underwater in a bucket to ensure any cries wouldn't be heard by his mother) for the ultrasound misdiagnosis of bilateral renal agenesis (no kidneys). Turns out he had 2 normal kidneys!

That made me pretty angry, and I didn't even know the victim. I can only imagine how seriously pissed off God is about it, and retribution is likely to be severe. I can't believe in a God who doesn't hear the cry of innocent blood.

Anonymous Helton Strom October 01, 2016 7:28 PM  

2141 - Really? doctrinaire republican when I've not seen them on any mainstream R platform except for #5 and #7, and certainly not getting talked about much, except to snicker at. Maybe I missed something - can you please point me to where any R of note is calling for execution of illegal immigrants that commit crimes, as part of their platform? Anyone calling for deportation of anyone not fluent in English as defacto proof of being unfit for citizenship?

Anonymous johnc October 01, 2016 7:32 PM  

Also Pagans have one strength that good Christians lack, the ability to operate without moral foundations.

Well I won't disagree with you there. Pagan civilizations tend to be one step removed from your typical American inner city.

Anonymous the management October 01, 2016 7:38 PM  

I now see why VD says that Europe has more hope than the US:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-01/german-mayor-beaten-unconscious-after-announcing-plan-accept-refugees

What's interesting is that secular-but-historically-Christian Europe is waking up faster than the predominantly evangelical American Christian "right". This indicates that much of American evangelicalism, which fails to take care of its own, throws the children's bread to the dogs, views spiritual enemies as friends, and welcomes Babel, is a form of heresy.

What else could explain a worldview that is anti-reality, and thus anti-God?

Anonymous God Hates Cucks October 01, 2016 7:40 PM  

“I came to the conclusion that there are two factors which destroyed Christianity in Western Europe. One was the theory of evolution, the other, liberal theology …. Liberal theology is just evolution applied to the Bible and our faith.” -Josef Ton


http://creation.com/apostate-the-men-who-destroyed-the-christian-west-review

We will never have a Christian civilization until we spread the truth, that the so called evidence often given for evolution does not support the idea that all life came from a single cell, but rather it fits right in to the Biblical worldview of specification within created kinds.

Hell, they are teaching 100 year old proven hoaxes to impressionable high school kids in their modern biology textbooks - see Ernst Haenkels fraudulent drawings of fetal development.

Blogger Didact October 01, 2016 7:55 PM  

Tom Kratman wrote:Didact:

I think the left hates The Tuloriad even more than they hate most of my books.


Wouldn't surprise me, sir =)

Honestly, the only way you could have pissed off the ICOTESCAS any more with that book would have been if you'd added in crucifixions of a few more of the kumbaya types in it, the way you've done with the Carrera series.

I was also greatly amused by that passage you put in there with the Muslim imam arguing over the finer points of the Islamic "faith" with Tulo'stenaloor, and finding himself completely flummoxed by a simple question.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper October 01, 2016 8:01 PM  

johnc wrote:Also Pagans have one strength that good Christians lack, the ability to operate without moral foundations.

Well I won't disagree with you there. Pagan civilizations tend to be one step removed from your typical American inner city.



That isn't really true. European Heathen civilizations were often quite civilized even if the customs they followed were atrocious by Christian standards.

In any case being able to act in an amoral fashion can be a good thing when you plan to do awful things to outgroups.

Christianity certainly could do it but modern Christians aren't going down the Vlad Tepez route, modern Heathens and the irreligious could with greater ease

As for Pagan's , Wiccans that lot. They aren't civilization building material Gardnerian Wicca has some potential but its poor clay.

Anonymous johnc October 01, 2016 8:11 PM  

@180 I think part of it is that, frankly, things just haven't gotten that bad yet. I mean we read some of this awful stuff on the Internet and see things on the TV and shake our fists at the screens... but overall most of us are enjoying a rather comfortable living by historical standards.

There's a lot of resentment and anger building beneath the surface, and I think we all have an uneasy feeling that our trajectory is not sustainable, but it's not at a boiling point yet.

Blogger Nobody In Particular October 01, 2016 8:11 PM  

Lazarus wrote:Nobody In Particular wrote:To rephrase what I said: without Jan Hus and Cromwell there would have been no Marx and Lenin. To me, this is blindingly obvious.

Without the blatant corruption of the Roman Catholic Church, there would have been no Hus or Cromwell.

How far back should we go with this?


Sorry, but there is an obvious answer to this: how much less corrupt does the Catholic Church have to be for the Protestants to come back to it?
How big is the difference in corruption, anyway? Can you honestly say that Protestant churches are less corrupt than the Catholic or Orthodox ones now? Shouldn't at least those ones which are just as corrupt admit it, get back into the fold, and try to tackle corruption together?
To me, this shows that, however it started, it later became about pride.
When Milton wrote "Paradise Lost", whom did he have in mind? or whom did his contemporaries think of? (maybe Cromwell).

Blogger S1AL October 01, 2016 8:18 PM  

--"Sorry, but there is an obvious answer to this: how much less corrupt does the Catholic Church have to be for the Protestants to come back to it?"--

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd switch to Orthodox long before RCC. The dogmatization of Papal Infallibility is an absolute no-go, and even jurisdictional primacy is too much.

But, frankly, most Protestants don't even think about it.

Blogger SmokeyJoe October 01, 2016 8:20 PM  

@ 153
153. John Williams October 01, 2016 6:11 PM
"The religious freedom the US was founded on was the right to freely worship Jesus Christ. The intent wasn't cart blanch for every belief system imaginable."

In a nutshell, THIS.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper October 01, 2016 8:28 PM  

SmokeyJoe wrote:@ 153

153. John Williams October 01, 2016 6:11 PM

"The religious freedom the US was founded on was the right to freely worship Jesus Christ. The intent wasn't cart blanch for every belief system imaginable."

In a nutshell, THIS.


Its a complete historical falsehood though. You are welcome to try and force people do what you want but its certain to backfire

hell good luck with keeping some Evangelicals from exterminating Mormons when they declare them non Christian one day

7 Million well armed organized Mormons plus whatever allies secular and not that they can manage will ruin your day. Worse most LDS (around 57%) are not in the US and they'll want revenge too.

In any case making the West Western first is the goal. Some idiot trying to grab more than he or she can manage risks all gains the .Alt Right could make and breaks a big rule. No guns rightward

Anonymous Andrew E. October 01, 2016 8:33 PM  

Vox, this is perhaps one of your most important posts. To truly be of the Right is to be of a religion. It is terrific that you have launched this very necessary discussion within the Alt-Right.

Blogger Johnny October 01, 2016 8:42 PM  

johnc wrote:Also Pagans have one strength that good Christians lack, the ability to operate without moral foundations.

Well I won't disagree with you there. Pagan civilizations tend to be one step removed from your typical American inner city.



The thing about pagans is that they did not mix deity worship with everyday morality. The morality depended on the collective consensus of the population, and it was quite variable one cultural region to another.

Anonymous SciVo October 01, 2016 8:45 PM  

ghost-tiger88 wrote:You can't abandon freedom of religion and maintain freedom of speech. These freedoms are equivalent.

That is false, because the one is a prohibition against FedGov elevating one Christian sect above another, while the other is a prohibition against FedGov punishing an owner of a press for publishing your scurrilous screed. Dissimilar.

Blogger Andrew Taylor October 01, 2016 8:54 PM  

@Pseudotsuga

Buddhism does not lend itself to the purpose of nation-building because marriage and procreation are secular matters from the Buddhist point of view. As is warfare. The Buddha himself taught that sexuality is a fetter to mortality and that intentional violence is always bad karma. It is, in its ideal and initial state, a wholly transcendent religion. While the Buddha prescribed good karma for householders, the entire secular lifestyle is fairly pissed on by the monastic scriptures.

Blogger Johnny October 01, 2016 8:54 PM  

The most important consideration when they wrote the amendment was that the gov could not sponsor a church. Otherwise the functional reality of the day was that most people had to go along with whatever faith was popular locally, because the hassles of doing otherwise were great. And realistically there was little chance the government would get involved with defending non conforming belief systems. By way of example the Mormons got hassled quite a bit and the government, for the most part, did not get involved.

Blogger justaguy October 01, 2016 9:02 PM  

The preservation of the West requires the abandonment of some, though not all, secular values, beginning with the freedom of religion, that conflict with the restoration of Christianity
While I agree with the first part of this—abandonment of some secular values, I do not agree that freedom of religion is one of those values that has to go. We haven’t had freedom of religion in the US for many generations, beginning in the 1880s and definitely since 1965 with the Civil Right Act. Progressive minded laws have restricted religious beliefs and their following actions and imposed societal norms such as being forced to rent to unmarried couples, disallow better deals to friends and church members, etc. The lack of freedom and severe restrictions on economic freedoms prevented most societal pressures from being brought to bear as the power of government was used to secularize what used to be a very religious society. Add almost total control of the schools and the addition of secular humanism and extreme environmentalism taught with all the accoutrements of religion, and voila—a drifting society.
However, my broad definition of freedom of religion is an essential part of the freedom of the individual. It is also too dangerous to take it away and easily leads to stagnation. Trust in the power of society to enforce it norms if allowed. The SJWs are certainly attempting that now that they have effectively neutered society's ability to fight back. This certainly worked for the first 200 years or so of English settlement in the US (say 1700 to 1950s).

Blogger VFM #7634 October 01, 2016 9:16 PM  

hell good luck with keeping some Evangelicals from exterminating Mormons when they declare them non Christian one day

@185 A.B. Prosper
I can imagine the Western U.S. ending up in something like the Bosnian War with Mormons standing in for Bosniaks and Evangelicals for Serbs.

Sounds like an idea for a novel, come to think of it.

Blogger Were-Puppy October 01, 2016 9:19 PM  

@93 Gen. Kong
Were-Puppy wrote:
Does this mean the first job at hand is to somehow uncuck the Church?

In a nutshell …. yes, at least for any actual Christians. It's damned tall order too.
---

In a month or so I'll be back near the church I was baptized. I hope the thing hasn't become a cuckfest.
I am to go and find out.

Blogger Were-Puppy October 01, 2016 9:23 PM  

@95 Flavia
Is Confucianism actually a religion? How Confucian is post-Moa China? He wasn't a fan .
---

Apparently it is something close. One time last couple of years I really offended a chinese friend with Confuscius jokes. I had no idea lol. But was explained to me it is very important and please do not make light of it.

Blogger Mark Butterworth October 01, 2016 9:26 PM  

JohnC,

You wrote, "The "energy and force" is the grace of God. Everything good comes from Him, right? That grace has quite obviously been withdrawn. We are in dire straights because God is extraordinarily pissed off. I can only imagine how seriously pissed off God is about it . . . and retribution is likely to be severe. I can't believe in a God who doesn't hear the cry of innocent blood."

You're anthropomorphizing God, and probably using the Bible as a reason to do so.

Islam, obviously, has "energy and force." Is God also animating that or anything else that similarly is passionately affecting people to organize and act in large groups like SJWs?

You have to come to accept or understand God's impassiveness in the face of human misery and suffering. The God-made universe kills innocent people (and animals) by the millions every day.

Do you not recall the psalmist crying out how the wicked prosper while the righteous find no balm or rescue?

The universe was created with death, disease, and catastrophe built into it along with all we consider good.

Blogger Mark Butterworth October 01, 2016 9:33 PM  

194. Were-Puppy,

I might be wrong but I understand Confucianism as a kind of gloss on Taoism. It makes Taoism comprehensible to ordinary people, and underscores natural law and good behavior in a person as a soul, a member of a family, society, and the race.

Anonymous Mr. Rational October 01, 2016 9:40 PM  

VD wrote:Don't be ridiculous. You can't appeal to history and ignore the fact that no group in the entire written history of Man has a worse track record in power than atheists.
By their own accounts, muslims killed as many as 70 million in India over the years, out of a world population under 1 billion.  The Rwandan genocide killed 20% of the country's population; it was abetted by Athanase Seromba and other Catholic priests.  Last, Marxists aren't atheists, they're cultists; Progress is their god and Marx is his prophet.  The Soviet leaders were just psychopaths.

Fanatics and psychopaths of any professed faith or philosophy are unfit to serve as executives, legislators, or judges.  This goes double for Christians in a Christian country, because other Christians grant them far too much goodwill.

Even a halfway-sensible atheist should be willing to fight to keep a fellow atheist out of power.
The USA's racial disaster was brought on us by Christians; (((they))) were profiteers as slave traders but (((they))) had no political control to speak of at the time.  Atheists might, and deists (functional atheists) apparently did, exercise skepticism where the lack of it has proven to be our downfall.

CatholicOne wrote:at a minimum, Sharia should be treated like communism was during the Cold War
You're too narrow.  When you write "shariah", you mean "islam".

Mark Butterworth wrote:What is certain is that Christianity can’t remain as it is. It has lost energy and force as a reason to be.
Whoever is trying to come up with the New, Improved Christianity has a tough row to hoe.  We know so much now that makes the scriptures look like the captured oral history of nomadic desert herders... which they are.  Excuses like the dancing around the carbon-dating results for the Shroud of Turin make the faithful look like chumps, and who wants to be a chump?

Whatever comes out of this is going to need a lot of applied evolutionary psychology.

Anonymous Mr. Rational October 01, 2016 9:41 PM  

A.B. Prosper wrote:yes this means no one will probably go to the moon or any of that stuff and the The west won't be anything special. Oh well.
Get serious.  Putting people on MARS is getting within reach of private companies.  It's only troublesome for the US government because so many palms insist on being greased.

A.B. Prosper wrote:If the West were willing to use its science for war it could obliterate Islam as a political threat . we simply lack the will to use what we've made .
All we have to do is eliminate the need to import oil, and Islam goes *poof*!  The Saudis lived on top of it for thousands of years and couldn't figure out how to make it edible.  They'll do no better if we say "keep your oil, we'll keep our food".

Blogger Were-Puppy October 01, 2016 9:46 PM  

@136 Helton Strom
8) Allow reparations to the descendants of African slaves, which includes a one-time $100,000 cash payment, a one-way ticket to the African nation of their choice and a permanent repudiation of their American citizenship (and any slave descendent who did not take the offer became ineligible for hiring preferences);

---

To Liberia, not any of their choice. Let them enjoy the fruits of Lincoln.

Blogger Didact October 01, 2016 9:59 PM  

@197,

By their own accounts, muslims killed as many as 70 million in India over the years, out of a world population under 1 billion.

A sense of perspective might be in order there.

80 million of my people were slaughtered- over 500 years of Mughal occupation.

By contrast, under Stalin's regime, 20 million Russians and Ukrainians died in WWII, and another 40 million died over thirty years of purges, terror, forced starvation regimes, slave labour, and coldly engineered slaughter.

Nobody knows how many died under Mao's Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution; I have seen estimates ranging from 20 to 60 million. That happened in the space of 20 years.

The Black Book of Communism points to a minimum of 100 million deaths under godless, atheist Communist regimes over just 80 years. That is a record of slaughter and horror unmatched even by Islam.

Last, Marxists aren't atheists, they're cultists; Progress is their god and Marx is his prophet. The Soviet leaders were just psychopaths.

Ah yes, the standard "no true Scotsman" atheist defence. It is complete and arrant nonsense. The Communist regimes enforced a strict no-tolerance policy toward religion- which is why one of President Reagan's main, and most powerful, weapons against the Soviets was the dissemination of Bibles and Korans.

Yet again, never bring an atheist knife to a religious gunfight. If you abandon God and His Laws, do not be surprised if slaughter and terror become commonplace instead of rare.

Furthermore, if the Soviet leaders were just psychopaths, were the Chinese or the Cambodians or Laotians or African Maoists or Indian Naxalites somehow not psychopaths?

The USA's racial disaster was brought on us by Christians; (((they))) were profiteers as slave traders but (((they))) had no political control to speak of at the time.

Do be serious. The strongest voices in favour of abolition, not just in America at the time but historically, have always been Christians. Christian missionaries have been arguing against slavery and subjugation of native peoples for the last twelve hundred years. The Church, in particular, has long argued that even supposed "savages" have souls and are worthy of salvation, going all the way back to the Papal Bull Sublimus Dei.

Any halfway fair-minded assessment of history will be forced to conclude that Christianity has overwhelmingly been a force for great good and human advancement. And I say that as a former atheist.

1 – 200 of 278 Newer› Newest»

Post a Comment

Rules of the blog
Please do not comment as "Anonymous". Comments by "Anonymous" will be spammed.

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts