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Sunday, October 23, 2016

Proving the point

Buwaya Puti, a reader who is a Filipino immigrant to the USA, has been insistent about the idea that he is too a real live American, as American as any Anglo-Saxon posterity of the men who fought the American Revolution. And then President Duterte signed a trade deal with China:
Just to clear a point - or three.

The Philippines didn't invite you over. When Commodore Dewey sailed into Manila Bay, or when the US army sortied out of Manila to fight the Philippine Army in 1899, these were not welcome acts.

Nor was the building of bases. These were accepted as force majeure, that's all.

The gratitude, properly, should go the other way. You guys dragged us into WWII, while our government did everything it could to keep us out of it. The Japs attacked us simply because you had bases there.

And because we kept on fighting, for you. The Malays, Indonesians, Siamese were not treated with the grotesque savagery we were because we were a loyal ally. And, dragging us into the war, you incompetently failed to keep up your end, providing pathetically insufficient means to keep your enemies away from our population.

You owe us, big time.
You guys = Americans. Us = Filipinos. Every. Single. Time. To repeat: Immigrants are not, and will never be, Americans. No matter how well they know American history and how much they swear they love baseball.

And even their great-grandchildren will still not be as loyal to America as to their own immigrant roots.

UPDATE: In fairness, Buwaya has pointed out that he is not a US citizen, merely an expat Filipino resident in the USA. However, my contention remains that his core loyalties would remain with his nation even if he accepted the US citizenship for which he is presumably eligible.

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153 Comments:

Blogger Benjamin Kraft October 23, 2016 2:14 AM  

A lot of people who have been in the armed forces can tell you about the "Filipino Mafia". As you say, it's not even the first generation immigrants, this alter-nationalism basically keeps up until they don't look at all Filipino any more in many or possibly most cases.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 2:19 AM  

Correct, and fair enough.
I, personally, am not an immigrant, I am a foreign resident in the US. I retain my native nationalities. Precisely like the US business executives at AIG and BofA and Citybank and Dole, who were permitted to work in the Philippines, and among whose families I grew up. They did raise their families in that foreign land, and even had their own school, which still exists. What they did there I do here. Same - same.
These people were US patriots, and rightly so, and would have spoken in the same sense.

Blogger Unknown October 23, 2016 2:21 AM  

@1
The "Mafia" is real. I have many, many stories.
I won't even get into how they get their DoD civilian jobs. Nepotism doesn't even begin to describe it.
Or how they own the Navy exchanges in the San Diego area.

Blogger Noah B October 23, 2016 2:23 AM  

That's some impressive cognitive dissonance from Buwaya. Entirely normal, apparently, but nevertheless amazing.

Blogger Noah B October 23, 2016 2:25 AM  

@2 Does that mean that you disagree with Vox's characterization in the first sentence of his post?

OpenID sigsawyer October 23, 2016 2:33 AM  

Very simple. If I moved to the Phillipines, I wouldn't be Filipino. If I had kids there with an American woman, they wouldn't be Filipino. Even if I miscegenated with a comfort woman, my kids wouldn't be fully Filipino.

Blogger S. Thermite October 23, 2016 2:33 AM  

Heh...this reminded me of a DSS agent I knew in DC. A man's man from Texas, who saw combat during a couple tours as a Marine during Bush's wars, and looked and sounded pretty white to me. He explained over drinks one night that he had no game with Asian chicks because not only is he only half-white, but he is half-Filipino.

Makes me wonder if Mr. Puti faces more discrimination from the fair ladies of his own hemisphere, then he does from us evil white men here in the West.

Blogger SQT October 23, 2016 2:39 AM  

My family fought in the American Revolution and the Civil War. "They" can kiss my ass.

Blogger residentMoron October 23, 2016 2:41 AM  

"And even their great-grandchildren will still not be as loyal to America as to their own immigrant roots."

Not that I disagree with your central point - I emphatically agree - and I think it's worth mentioning that the treachery of native elites has done more damage than all the immigrants combined. They are responsible for the Fed lunacy and socjus convergence of the last thread, they are responsible for the refugee flood, they are responsible for the reckless immigration policies, they are responsible for the intellectual confusion of calling invaders immigrants.

It's not only the invaders from without we're going to have to fight. We're going to have to purge the parasites from within.

A 19 year old girl was raped and drowned in the river not 500 metres from our home, last weekend. You can tell from the unusual lack of detail that the details reveal things the government doesn't want us to know. Were the perp a local they'd be shouting it from the rooftops.

Blogger l' Américain October 23, 2016 2:42 AM  

@2

I'm sorry, I can't understand your accent.

OpenID thresherofmen October 23, 2016 2:45 AM  

I was hospitalized at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester off and on from 2008 to 2011, undergoing treatment for a severe autoimmune disease. In my time there, I was under the care of an American of Nigerian descent - and I mean that he was exactly that. The guy had become thoroughly American to the point that he had cut himself off from his family "back in that black shithole." He said "we" and "us" when referring to Americans and referred to himself prior to his citizenship as he would a stranger.

So it does apparently happen. Just not enough to build a sane immigration policy around, sadly.

Blogger tublecane October 23, 2016 2:47 AM  

"Force majeure" is right. Anyone else ever read "Benevolent Assimilation?" That was 4th generation warfare. Anyone we suspected of being an enemy combatant we shot on sight.

I can say "we" because my ancestors were here by then, but I'm not of founding stock. I have no real ties to my various Old Countries (namely, Scotland, Germany, Ireland, Switzerland, and probably others), intellectual, emotional, or otherwise. Never been to any of them. So I wouldn't ever perform this guy's cognitive dissonance dance.

Blogger ChickenChicken Sweep October 23, 2016 2:48 AM  

"You guys dragged us into WWII"

Because Jap[an would have made the Philippines a full and equal partner in the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, just like they did with China, Korea, Indochina, Hong Kong, et al.

Blogger residentMoron October 23, 2016 2:55 AM  

@5

A friend, and fellow Christian, tells me that as a native of one of the smaller West Indian islands, where the relatively lower rates of mixing means they're darker than on "tge big island", the good Christian mothers of the church he attended while studying on the big island, didn't want their daughters to marry him because he was too dark. They wanted someone lighter than their girls, so the grandchildren would be lighter again.

Oddly, academic dogma doesn't trump reality of human nature.

Anonymous JI October 23, 2016 2:56 AM  

Oh, I've just gotta' comment on this one. Was reading my Kindle in bed (The Missionaries), checked Vox before going to sleep, saw this and came downstairs to put in my .02.

I'm happily married to a lady from the Philippines, and it is very clear that, in spite of being married to me, a whatever-generation American of English decent with both sides of the family going back to 1600's New England, and in spite of living in the US for the past 15 years, and having American citizenship, she identifies mostly as a Filipina. She loves the US, hates the massive numbers of third-world immigrants coming here, and still knows she is not a true American. In the morning, she will undoubtedly be incensed at the writings of the Filipino reader "Buwaya Puti".

Blogger Benjamin Kraft October 23, 2016 2:58 AM  

@13. And all that a subsidiary of Happiness Efficiency Leadership Prosperity, of course.

Blogger Phillip George October 23, 2016 3:04 AM  

I sympathise with both arguments. When every grade school child prayed the Lord's prayer and took the pledge of allegiance you drilled into their identity and planted bedrock. Granite.

Jesus resurrection.. NO modern curator could allow it today but in the upstairs bedroom of Robert E Lee's home in Arlington was a tapestry of a farm with animals embroidered and the words Jesus died, Jesus is Risen.

So win lose. or draw, confederacy, federation, or divided nation there was one church to bury the dead and in which gentlemen could agree to disagree. That was America.

To a vanishingly small number that is America

Blogger Tom K. October 23, 2016 3:23 AM  

I had a co-worker when I served in the Air Force in Japan in the late 70s named Nakamura. He was first generation American and his parents were 100% Japanese.

We were shopping on the local economy and a couple of young girls came up to him and began speaking to him in Japanese, asking him something about an object. His reaction made me laugh.

He looked at them fiercely and with great indignation said, "Hey! I am not Japanese! I do not speak Japanese! I am an American! Do you understand? American." He pounded his palm onto his chest and said it again. "Amer-i-can! American!" He didn't even try to use the little bit of Japanese he was taught during his New Arrivals Orientation. I pulled him away because the two girls were embarrassed and confused.

I asked him later, "You mean you don't speak ANY Japanese?" He said, "No. None. My parents never spoke Japanese around me. They wanted us kids to be Americans."

For about ten years I worked with a LOT of new immigrants from Africa and Eastern Europe. The Europeans seemed to all want to be Americans, but the East Africans just wanted to make as much money here as possible and then retire back home relatively rich.

I like that idea. And don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Blogger HardReturn¶ October 23, 2016 3:26 AM  

There's around 10 million Filipino expatriates spread worldwide, about 10% of population, sending remittances home totaling 10% of Philippines GDP. That they can work abroad but don't assimilate into the host culture is a feature not a bug.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 3:28 AM  

Noah, yes I disagree on a matter of detail, I am not a US citizen and I dont intend to be a US citizen. I believe that this means I am not an "immigrant".

There is a whole expat culture you know, of people who live and work in foreign countries and retain their nationality. There must be hundreds of thousands of Americans living and working abroad, mainly working for US firms.

And so also Europeans (I am also a Euro) of every flavor, Australians, South Africans (I just met one the other day, working for a UK firm), you name it.

I am just another flavor of expat. We exist. Go to any big international city and you will find us.

Blogger Unknown October 23, 2016 3:30 AM  

LOL "facts".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Philippine deaths from Japanese action in WW2: ~530,000
Indonesian deaths from Japanese action in WW2: 4,000,000

[and Chinese deaths from Japanese action in WW2: 15-20,000,000]

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 3:31 AM  

JI,
Why on earth would your wife be incensed?

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 3:34 AM  

Sigsawyer,
You dont understand the Philippines.
Thats a culture that absorbs the mestizo like butter melting into soup.
Look up Fernando Poe Jr. They almost made him President.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 3:52 AM  

Philippine deaths were more like 1 million as determined by the Philippine census, US postwar surveys, and that number appears in most standard references.

Indonesian WW2 casualty refs are questionable as it immediately fell into a revolutionary war (and civil wars within that) against the Dutch until 1949, both compounding casualties between separate conflicts and making a census along with civil records impossible to compile.

Anonymous Bobby Farr October 23, 2016 3:54 AM  

Sad that something so obvious even needs to be said. Sadder that even here the comments include supporters of the assimilation delusion.

Blogger Unknown October 23, 2016 4:05 AM  

La Wik (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_occupation_of_the_Dutch_East_Indies) says
A later UN report stated that four million people died in Indonesia as a result of the Japanese occupation.[76] About 2.4 million people died in Java from famine during 1944–45.[77]

http://ww2db.com/country/philippines agrees on the figure of ~1m Filipino casualties.

Whether it's eight times the Indonesian casualties or four times, the sentence "The Malays, Indonesians, Siamese were not treated with the grotesque savagery we were" is false.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 4:10 AM  

ChickenChickensweep,

Yes, just as they did to Siam (Thailand). The economy suffered. However, Bangkok was not flattened and its residents weren't massacred, its soldiers did not nearly all die in death camps, nor did the Thais starve.

Blogger Jerry27 October 23, 2016 4:12 AM  

The Japs attacked us simply because you had bases there.

Talking about entry of Uncle Sam into world war jew could be a full time. Our elites were desperate to save their puppet called the Soviet Union. Japan was like a cornered bunnny rabbit. The radio traffic from 1937 on (Earhart capture by the Japs) is still locked up. It is going to tough to rip the Jewish vampire off the backs of the white race.

thanks,
Jerry

Anonymous 10/23 October 23, 2016 4:13 AM  

@2 buwaya puti

Glad we've got this cleared up. So when you're bitching about how you're American too and should be treated as no different than George Washington's greatx6 grandson, you agree it's fair game to tell you to fuck off back to your shitty island with the rest of your short, funny talking, slant eyed, collectivist gook relatives.


Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 4:19 AM  

Take most of these civilian casualty estimates with a grain of salt, as most are based on demographic calculations that depend on extrapolations from a census that may have been carried out much later. In Indonesias case I dont think they even had a census until either 1955 or 1961.

In the case of the Philippines civil records exist, and were compiled postwar.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 4:20 AM  

10/23,
I have never said this.

Blogger KKK October 23, 2016 4:32 AM  

Buwaya Puti,

Paano naging kasalanan ng mga Kano ang mga kagagawan ng mga Japon?

The fact is that the Japs would have come here one way or the other, and we would have fought them, which would have resulted in reprisals one way or another.

You're basically arguing that the rapist would have raped the woman slightly less painfully if only she had complied instead of trying to call for help.

Yeah, we would have been less fucked if only we remained neutral. Hindi ko naniniwala diyan.

I agree with Vox with Nationalism for all, and I think you do too. So do most Filipinos I think. So there's really nothing to discuss here except the historical butthurt that the Filipino intellectual, literati and bourgeois classes feel with regards to whitey.

Anonymous Hezekiah Garrett October 23, 2016 4:43 AM  

Fuck flips. I can boil pork in vinegar my own damn self.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 4:55 AM  

KKK,

Tisoy ako, walang butthurt :)
History ito pare.

Thats what Quezon was doing - he was negotiating with the Japs for just a little rape. Its better, probably, than being heroes and the #$@@$# of rape we actually got.

First tried in 1938, for an agreement on neutrality, got flak from both opposition and Americans, which he denied when he returned to Manila, but he tried.

Then in August 1941, and then in Feb 1942 (the battle of Bataan was still going on) he asked Roosevelt for permission to negotiate neutrality with the Japs, and, get this, he was supported by both Francis Sayre (Phil Commissioner) and MacArthur. Denied.

Blogger KKK October 23, 2016 4:59 AM  

>Roosevelt

I think you will discover that most people on VD, or American Nationalists anyway, have a low opinion of the second Roosevelt.

Blogger Noah B October 23, 2016 5:01 AM  

Well that deescalated quickly.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 5:03 AM  

Anyway, KKK,

My main argument is in threads below.
Summary,
If your country is controlled by another, and is not permitted to have its own foreign policy, the controlling country is morally obliged to see that its own foreign policy maneuvers (like embargoes against Japan) dont cause you harm.

The US picked a war with Japan and then didnt adequately protect the Philippines from the result.

Blogger KKK October 23, 2016 5:06 AM  

"Thats what Quezon was doing - he was negotiating with the Japs for just a little rape. Its better, probably, than being heroes and the #$@@$# of rape we actually got."

Also, a lot of Filipinos would dispute you on this.

But to get back on topic, yes, I agree with Vox Nationalism for everybody.

Also, Duterte should not have gone to China, and I also agree that the yanks shouldn't have any bases here. He should have strengthened ties with ASEAN, India, Japan and SOKOR.

He should also have waited for Trump and the West to go Nationalist. This way, he would have been in a better position, and it would be cool to see Trump and Dute bantz a little.



Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey October 23, 2016 5:18 AM  

"American of Nigerian descent"

Impossible. There's no such thing. If you're of African, Asian, or mestizo descent then by definition you're not American.

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey October 23, 2016 5:26 AM  

I wonder how many VD and Steve Sailer readers/commentators are married to Asian women?

I would say the number is quite high.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 5:35 AM  

The problem with the Philippine strategic situation is:
- Japan and Korea are the only ones other than the US that could help, but aren't. Phils had to pay its own money for those Korean trainers-fighters-kuno with no missiles.
- Asean is useless
- Its @###$#@ expensive to even think of fighting the Chinese. What the Phils needs desperately is a complete system of air defense - against the Chinese, we're talking 20-50 billion USD at least, and the gov budget is just 50B
- The Chinese, today, could blackmail the Phils with a naval embargo for external trade and internal trade. They have lots of planes in range, with plenty of airlaunched antiship missiles just like those someone has been shooting off Yemen.
How about electricity in Luzon? That coal comes by ship from Semirara island or Indonesia.
Petroleum goes to the port of Batangas - only.
And, you know, there are just three oil refineries in the country, and one major oil depot. All can be taken out with a few missile shots.
No diesel, no electricity, no interisland shipping - how are we going to feed Cebu? Most islands are not self sufficient. Worse, with no diesel nothing is going to move anywhere.
And the Chinese navy could sail right through the country doing whatever they like.

Anonymous 10/23 October 23, 2016 5:36 AM  

@2 Should I take the word of a lying gook or Vox Day?

"Buwaya Puti, a reader who is a Filipino immigrant to the USA, has been insistent about the idea that he is too a real live American, as American as any Anglo-Saxon posterity of the men who fought the American Revolution."

Fuck off back to your shitty island. Foreign guests may be welcome, but not liars.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 5:41 AM  

10/23
You should take the word of a lying gook of course. I most sincerely vouch for myself.

Anonymous 10/23 October 23, 2016 5:47 AM  

@31 @43
Wait around long enough, gook. My ancestors had ways of dealing with people like you, and come hard times, those methods will be revived.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 5:51 AM  

10/23,
I think you should stop drinking.
Also probably take a nap, it will do you good.

Blogger VD October 23, 2016 6:19 AM  

Should I take the word of a lying gook or Vox Day?

There isn't any actual disagreement there. I assumed, erroneously, that he was a US citizen on the basis of his previous remarks. But regardless of his own status, Buwaya has been an outspoken "assimilationist" who is opposed to the concept of Anglo-American posterity.

Blogger bara October 23, 2016 6:28 AM  

I am what would by any definition be called an immigrant to the US. I came here because I did not agree with the culture in my native country, but I have no fantasies about assimilating 100% in my lifetime. For example, even having lived for a number of years I ended up marrying a woman from my country and while our kids have been born here they are outsiders in many ways: we speak another language at home, we travel at least once a year to see the family, etc.

I am an expat, enjoying the fruits of a culture I identify with, sacrificing in some ways, but benefiting in others. Two or three generations down the line maybe my descendants will have fully assimilated... or maybe the next generation will follow my example and emigrate again - in particular if decadence in this country continues. I think deep down I'm a survivor and maybe my family will continue that tradition... or maybe not. I don't know, I don't completely fit, but this is the closest place to a home for us. As I stated earlier, I won't be an American, but I'll do my best to be a sympathizer for American, Western and Christian culture, because that is where I can live my values.

Anonymous 1023 October 23, 2016 6:44 AM  

Vox Day says "A." buwaya puti says "not A." That is a disagreement.

Vox Day:
'Buwaya Puti, a reader who is a Filipino immigrant to the USA, has been insistent about the idea that he is too a real live American, as American as any Anglo-Saxon posterity of the men who fought the American Revolution."

10/23
"So when you're bitching about how you're American too and should be treated as no different than George Washington's greatx6 grandson, you agree it's fair game to tell you to fuck off back to your shitty island."

buwaya puti:
I have never said this.

Vox, I will retract when you do.

Blogger weka October 23, 2016 6:56 AM  

@47. You have just given an example of the thesis. To recap: the US is an empire. It is made up of nations: the American Indian Nations, the British (who are the dominant nations: Southron and Yankee): The Norsemen (Minnesota is odd in more than one way), the Arcadian and the Spanish. The Yankees and Southrons bought Arcadia from Napoleon and conquered a fair amount of Spanish territory.

They are all American. The first mass immigrant wave was Irish, then Mitteleuropa, then Russian. And Jews. They altered post civil war American, but they became integrated into the Yankee and Southron cultures, altering them (the Black culture less so).

The new immigrants have not integrated. They won't. \

Because America is an empire of nations. It is not a proposition. And it is not their nation.

Blogger Matt October 23, 2016 7:01 AM  

I was considering applying for the Italian citizenship that I am legally allowed. My generation would be the last, as.my grrat grandparents came.here in the 30s. But after seeing videos of Africans pouring in, I'm not so sure..

Anonymous Galactic Starfleets of Deplorable Spartacus October 23, 2016 7:03 AM  

buwaya puti wrote:

- What the Phils needs desperately is a complete system of air defense - against the Chinese, we're talking 20-50 billion USD at least, and the gov budget is just 50B

- The Chinese, today,.. lots of planes in range, with plenty of airlaunched antiship missiles just like those someone has been shooting off Yemen.

How about electricity in Luzon? That coal comes by ship from Semirara island or Indonesia.

Petroleum goes to the port of Batangas - only.

.. there are just three oil refineries in the country, and one major oil depot. All can be taken out with a few missile shots.

No diesel, no electricity, no interisland shipping - how are we going to feed Cebu? Most islands are not self sufficient. Worse, with no diesel nothing is going to move anywhere.


Thank you for your interesting viewpoint. Clearly the first thing the Philippines needs is for you to return there to your own nation. As for American reparations, we hereby retract and withdraw the evils of airplanes, petroleum, oil refineries, diesel, coal, the internet, airlaunched antiship missles, computers, and the rest of the things we invaded your islands with and forced upon your people. Just stop using them. That should more than suffice to make you whole, certainly more than 50 billion USD ever could.

Anonymous 10/23 October 23, 2016 7:12 AM  

@48
I provisionally retract per Vox's update, contingent upon buwaya puti answering the updated claim.

Blogger VD October 23, 2016 7:17 AM  

Vox, I will retract when you do.

Do as you see fit. I'm not going to comb through the comment archives just so I can prove the obvious. It's not as if I selected Buyawa as a stand-in for the proposition nation crowd from a list of random commenter names.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch October 23, 2016 7:28 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Galactic Starfleets of Deplorable Spartacus October 23, 2016 7:35 AM  

bara wrote:am what would by any definition be called an immigrant to the US. I came here because I did not agree with the culture in my native country, but I have no fantasies about assimilating 100% in my lifetime.

I am an expat, enjoying the fruits of a culture I identify with, sacrificing in some ways, but benefiting in others... I won't be an American, but I'll do my best to be a sympathizer for American, Western and Christian culture, because that is where I can live my values.


Ok, thank you kindly for that. But please realize that we Americans don't have any obligation to provide a place in our home for you to "live your values", regardless of your sympathies.

What exactly does "identify with" and "assimilate" mean? If a tomato plant- which identifies itself as corn- is transplanted into a field of corn, will it somehow turn into a corn plant? If so, how many generations will that take? Is there now some moral imperative to assist with the "assimilation", hybridizing the transplanted tomato plant by crossing it with corn? Why? Where does the obligation of the corn come from?

Blogger Laramie Hirsch October 23, 2016 7:38 AM  

The world has gone mad. The primary things that I value is the will of God and the souls of my family. The Universal Faith of Jesus Christ transcends all of the bullshit, and that is where we find a commonality in our family that I've never had in my own youthful home life, nor in any friendship.

This country was doomed to be a continent of countless tribes from the start. From the French missionaries, to the Spanish missionaries and conquistadors, to the English settlers. Displacing the natives and buying blacks off of the Jews...this balkanized situation was inevitable.

And now, since no one gives two shits about God and his Logos, people are gonna tribe up, hate one another, and eventually fight each other--as happened in Rwanda. I don't celebrate that.

What I would celebrate is a Christian leader who could unite the tribes into one kingdom for the common cause of Jesus Christ and His social kingship.

Until that day, even my own wife--like yours, JI--is tired of the chimp outs, watching Sesame Street try to teach us something besides English, and the drunk homeless Indians, as well as the wretched fat whites who tend to sneer more than anything.

Blogger JaimeInTexas October 23, 2016 7:57 AM  

Still, what was these uSA's business taking over the Philipines, Hawaii, Cuba or Puerto Rico, etc?
Teddy Roosevelt gave us a FedGov that grabbed millions of square miles for parks. Damn the Constitution. Name it claim it government.

Blogger Ransom Smith October 23, 2016 8:02 AM  

My maternal great great grandparents immigrated to Eastern Virginia from modern day Slovakia in the early part of the 20th century.

Proof that Europeans immigrate and assimilate as Americans, as my great grandfather forward have all been Americans who cared about their community more than the old country.

That, and John Deer tractors.

Blogger wreckage October 23, 2016 8:04 AM  

Well the solution would be to reject the topdown quasi-Federation with universal rules and roll with Nassim Taleb's Antifragile "Empire" model.

The current notion of the US - running a loose Empire as though it were a small cohesive monocultural Nation-State, simply cannot work. But the "Antifragile" imperial model could be good for a 500+ year run and facilitate a long-term shift to any given degree of self-segregation the population might desire.

Ultimately, the first and strongest conflict here is the fervent desire of the political class to run a diverse imperial conglomerate as though it were a cohesive state, while preventing the emergence of city-states or nation-states that would historically be the natural pattern at ground level.

And that, in turn, creates an inevitable and unresolvable conflict that emerges as cross-racial an cross-cultural violence.

Blogger Salt October 23, 2016 8:16 AM  

JaimeInTexas wrote:Still, what was these uSA's business taking over the Philipines, Hawaii, Cuba or Puerto Rico, etc?

I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents. - Gen. Smedley Butler

Blogger Scott Birch October 23, 2016 8:25 AM  

The point about loyalty has been well made here, but loyalty does cut both ways, and America is not known for treating its allies well. Whatever the reality, the reputation has been tarnished worldwide, most likely by the policies and actions of (((partisan interests within American government))).

Anonymous RedJack October 23, 2016 8:26 AM  

Ransom Smith wrote:My maternal great great grandparents immigrated to Eastern Virginia from modern day Slovakia in the early part of the 20th century.

Proof that Europeans immigrate and assimilate as Americans, as my great grandfather forward have all been Americans who cared about their community more than the old country.

That, and John Deer tractors.
But, according to Vox, you and I (for I am not of English stock) are not 100% Americans because we are not of Anglo Saxon Protestant descent. Honestly, he has a point. Half my family are Catholic, and they want to destroy the USA because of some old or imagined slight. The other half are Lutheran, who look at the government the way a man looks at the leavings of a dog that he just stepped in. Something you half to deal with, but stinks.

Using that standard, the USA was dead withing the living memory of the Revolution. We became an Empire rather quickly.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch October 23, 2016 8:39 AM  

@59

The current notion of the US - running a loose Empire as though it were a small cohesive monocultural Nation-State, simply cannot work.

And yet, something like this has already occurred in Tanzania.

Blogger Cataline Sergius October 23, 2016 8:54 AM  

The Nineteenth Century was what it was.

The odds of the Philippines being allowed to keep their independence was Zero.

Siam was an independent kingdom that managed to hang on to it's independence by more or less playing one European power off against another. Which was why their negotiated non-surrender worked to Japan worked.

The Philippines didn't have that option. They were already a Spanish colonial possession, that Spain couldn't hang on to.

Assuming the anti-imperialist faction lead by Thomas Reed had held sway, it wouldn't have mattered.

Imperial Germany would have moved in immediately and moved in hard. That was one of the arguments for the US to move in itself. And there is zero question the Germans would have done it. Manila Bay was a "strategic naval jackpot."

Under that scenario (1), when Germany lost WWI, the Philippines would probably have made a play for independence and of course would have been quietly laughed at before being turned over to France or Britain.

Twenty years later, Japan would have invaded anyway.

Under scenario (2) the Philippines would have been awarded to Japan for backing the right pony in WWI.

Possibly less brutal, possibly not but much more prolonged.

And very likely the Japanese domination would still be going on today.

Japanese power in the region only ended because they went to war with the US. Without the Philippines there would have been little reason for American interest in the region at all.


Blogger Timmy3 October 23, 2016 9:02 AM  

I don't doubt many immigrants assimilated. It seems they aren't equal defenders of the Constitution. Many are participating in US elections illegally. Many vote primarily for the Democratic Party to transform the nation. Thus, the loyalty to their new country is called into question.

Anonymous teapartydoc October 23, 2016 9:03 AM  

One thing that many people don't think about regarding how "American" Filipino immigrants are is that up until 1947 the pledge and anthem sung at the beginning of school in the Philippines were the American pledge and the Star Spangled Banner. When I was walking through a mall in Pampanga five years ago, I happened to be wearing green cargo pants and a green tee shirt. I have no military background. Some old man saw me and strode I've and snapped to attention. Obviously an old veteran who had fought alongside our guys in WWII who had been screwed out of his promised US citizenship after the war. I couldn't salute back, so smiled and nodded. He accepted that and walked on realizing that even if I was who he thought I was that I was out of uniform. I have many Filipino immigrant friends. None of them express any primary allegiance to the Philippines at all. One thing most of them love about America more than anything else is the second amendment. How do you think they vote?

Anonymous jdgalt October 23, 2016 9:11 AM  

President Duterte, I agree: as an American I apologize for my ancestors rescuing you from the Japanese. I'm sure you would much rather still be under their rule.

Anonymous Wyrd October 23, 2016 9:15 AM  

President Duterte, I agree: as an American I apologize for my ancestors rescuing you from the Japanese. I'm sure you would much rather still be under their rule.

The Filipino bukkake industry would be booming!

OpenID basementhomebrewer October 23, 2016 9:23 AM  

thresherofmen wrote:I was hospitalized at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester off and on from 2008 to 2011, undergoing treatment for a severe autoimmune disease. In my time there, I was under the care of an American of Nigerian descent - and I mean that he was exactly that. The guy had become thoroughly American to the point that he had cut himself off from his family "back in that black shithole." He said "we" and "us" when referring to Americans and referred to himself prior to his citizenship as he would a stranger.

So it does apparently happen. Just not enough to build a sane immigration policy around, sadly.


Used to live in the Rochester area and I believe I know exactly who you are talking about. We went to church with his family. Small world.

OpenID paworldandtimes October 23, 2016 9:30 AM  

his core loyalties would remain with his nation even if he accepted the US citizenship

And this ought to be an obvious and noncontroversial an assertion as the fact that the sun rises in the east.

In going over the events of war against Japan, Puti does remind readers that an alliance with the United States tends to work out catastrophically for the weaker ally.

PA

Anonymous Who Dat October 23, 2016 9:34 AM  

Wait a second. This guy claims the Philippines becoming China's bitch is the right move because the Chinese are bullies but America is the bad guy?

Anonymous aegis-1080 October 23, 2016 9:42 AM  

@71

The "grass is greener" attitude is basically a way to cope with the fact that small countries are the bitches of larger and more powerful ones. Such is life.

Anonymous Gggs October 23, 2016 9:59 AM  

"And even their great-grandchildren will still not be as loyal to America as to their own immigrant roots."

This statement is so incurabley wrong, so perfectly improvable and so completely ignorant it forces one to worry about you and your mental health.

Please get evaluated.

Anonymous Lawyer Guy October 23, 2016 10:01 AM  

It is an odd thing. My family roots are German. I was stationed there.

I really liked the beer, more so since this was before the current golden age of good beer here in the US. I liked the brats and most of the food. Loved the Wild Boar and Venison as prepared in Franconia.

The castles and old towns are nice, Munich was great per-refugees--we did have Turks back then but they were in ghetto sub areas.

I never felt an affinity with the German nation other than some fondness. It was always them and US (pun intended). I just liked my time there slightly more than my time in Japan.

Not sure what the difference is, but there is one.

Anonymous Gggs October 23, 2016 10:20 AM  

"I never felt an affinity with the German nation other than some fondness."

This is simply because you are American and like so many other Americans, like so many French, like so many Australians, like so many Germans, you have a natural curiosity about your family just as you have a deep affinity for your country and home.

Blogger pyrrhus October 23, 2016 10:32 AM  

As I have written before, Duterte is wisely using his current good bargaining position to ally and get favors from China, which will inevitably dominate the Western Pacific, and from Russia. America will soon be a non-factor in the area. And then there is the likelihood that Americans have been trying to undermine Duterte.....

Blogger wreckage October 23, 2016 10:49 AM  

I'm from an immigrant family, I can proudly say that I have followed in the footsteps of my German grandparents with the unquestioned values they brought here:

A total contempt for Germany and Germans. In fact around here you can tell the German rural regions because the houses are close to the road, there's a Lutheran church, and everyone fuckin' HATES Germans, attested by the honour-rolls and memorials to all the men who died for the opportunity to shoot a German.

Blogger The Observer October 23, 2016 10:52 AM  

@76:

Not just China. Russia has just essentially said to the Philippines "make a laundry list, and we'll start negotiating."

Anonymous Mark auld October 23, 2016 11:22 AM  

I look forward to the next chapter in this thread,now that Duarte has pivoted to China and told the U.S. to F off.

Blogger Harsh October 23, 2016 11:57 AM  

The US people didn't invite you over. When a corrupt Massachusetts senator promoted the Immigration Act of 1965 causing 60 million invaders to flood our country, there were not welcome acts.

Anonymous Philalethes October 23, 2016 11:59 AM  

Btw, the bloody, savage US conquest of the Philippines (after "liberating" it from from the Spanish Empire) was the inspiration for Mark Twain's bitter story "The War Prayer", which remained unpublished during his lifetime. As Twain put it, "None but the dead are permitted to tell the truth."

Anonymous Gggs October 23, 2016 12:21 PM  

"The US people didn't invite you over. When a corrupt Massachusetts senator promoted the Immigration Act of 1965 causing 60 million invaders to flood our country, there were not welcome acts."

Of course the US people invited him over. The govt and the laws of the US are are nothing but a product of endorsement by the US. You can't claim legitimacy for the laws you like and illegitimacy for the ones you don't like. That's absurd.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 12:24 PM  

On the subject of historical what-ifs

The taking of the Philippines was a critical hinge in US and world history. That night Mckinley decided to hold on to it was one of those "great man" turning points, when a lot of much larger things could have gone entirely another way, depending entirely on a single mans decision.

It created the US-Japan rivalry, entirely.
Much of the early 20th century naval arms race was the result, as of course the Pacific war itself and the fate of the colonial empires.

It also changed the culture of the US Army and Navy, making both much more foreign-oriented, as most officers with prospects rotated through there and spent much time in Manila, a hugely cosmopolitan place in those days.
Securing the country was a major exercise in the logistics of maintaining a large army in foreign parts. This was far greater than the US efforts in Cuba.
All of the above doubtless played a role in, for instance, the willingness of the US Gov to enter WWI. Large armies abroad for a long war was not an alien concept.
Chinese politics was also affected by a change in the Asian balance of power, the movement against the Quing for instance.
And so on. Huge consequences.
As for Germany - if McKinley had decided another way, Germany did NOT have 20,000 men (what the US sent in 1899) in Asia to grab up the country. In June 1900 the Germans could contribute only 500 or so to the initial international force in China in spite of tbe Kaisers enthusiasm for that war. It would have taken the six months or more it took for Germany to send its substantial contingent to China during the Boxer rebellion. Based on the same performance in 1898, that would have been at least six months for the Philippine Republic to organize, consolidate and arm. With Manila, with the Spanish military stocks, and in fact with Japanese armament (which was being arranged, with no less than Sun Yat Sen as go-between; the Japanese were eager to deal with the Philippine Republic), they would have been well armed indeed. It would have required many more German troops to succeed in the Philippines than were committed in any German colonial conflict, including the Boxer rebellion, and many more I think than even the US eventually needed, had the forces of the Republic been better armed and trained.
Of course there were others, and I certainly dont put it past Aguinaldo to do something like arrange to be a protectorate of someone or other, perhaps Japan, nor for a split of some island or islands nor for bits and pieces to have been taken opportunistically, by the British probably.
History would have been laid wide open.

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky October 23, 2016 12:25 PM  

Never been to the Philippines, but I have been to other places that were conquered by Imperial Japan in WWII. In Singapore and Indonesia, people thought they hated the English and the Dutch, but then the Japanese came. Chinese animus against the Japanese is legendary, as is Korean. This all stems from the horrific treatment heaped out by the Japanese in those days. If the Filipinos don't share it, they would seem to be the exception. But I don't think they are. Wretchard, the Filipino author over at Belmont Club, has written often and extensively about uneasy relationship and disastrous past between the Filipinos and Japanese.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 12:27 PM  

On the subject of historical what-ifs

The taking of the Philippines was a critical hinge in US and world history. That night Mckinley decided to hold on to it was one of those "great man" turning points, when a lot of much larger things could have gone entirely another way, depending entirely on a single mans decision.

It created the US-Japan rivalry, entirely.
Much of the early 20th century naval arms race was the result, as of course the Pacific war itself and the fate of the colonial empires.

It also changed the culture of the US Army and Navy, making both much more foreign-oriented, as most officers with prospects rotated through there and spent much time in Manila, a hugely cosmopolitan place in those days.
Securing the country was a major exercise in the logistics of maintaining a large army in foreign parts. This was far greater than the US efforts in Cuba.
All of the above doubtless played a role in, for instance, the willingness of the US Gov to enter WWI. Large armies abroad for a long war was not an alien concept.
Chinese politics was also affected by a change in the Asian balance of power, the movement against the Quing for instance.
And so on. Huge consequences.
As for Germany - if McKinley had decided another way, Germany did NOT have 20,000 men (what the US sent in 1899) in Asia to grab up the country. In June 1900 the Germans could contribute only 500 or so to the initial international force in China in spite of tbe Kaisers enthusiasm for that war. It would have taken the six months or more it took for Germany to send its substantial contingent to China during the Boxer rebellion. Based on the same performance in 1898, that would have been at least six months for the Philippine Republic to organize, consolidate and arm. With Manila, with the Spanish military stocks, and in fact with Japanese armament (which was being arranged, with no less than Sun Yat Sen as go-between; the Japanese were eager to deal with the Philippine Republic), they would have been well armed indeed. It would have required many more German troops to succeed in the Philippines than were committed in any German colonial conflict, including the Boxer rebellion, and many more I think than even the US eventually needed, had the forces of the Republic been better armed and trained.
Of course there were others, and I certainly dont put it past Aguinaldo to do something like arrange to be a protectorate of someone or other, perhaps Japan, nor for a split of some island or islands nor for bits and pieces to have been taken opportunistically, by the British probably.
History would have been laid wide open.

Blogger GFR October 23, 2016 12:39 PM  

Let us hope the Chinese will welcome you like the Americans did. Oh wait, no they won't because you're not Han Chinese.
.
Well whatever - Duterte says China is your big brother now so you can't come back here.
.
I did like Dutertes comment about obama being a son of a whore though.

Anonymous BGKB October 23, 2016 12:50 PM  

All this time I thought he was a female.

You dont understand the Philippines. Thats a culture that absorbs the mestizo like butter melting into soup.

How do they like their gay US ambassador with diplomatic immunity?

residents weren't massacred, its soldiers did not nearly all die in death camps, nor did the Thais starve.

That's odd for some reason I thought that Thais starved to the point they sold some of their children to American pedos so they could feed the rest, and wouldn't want the sold children back. But I will take buwaya's expertise over what I heard in a DC bar.

Fuck flips. I can boil pork in vinegar my own damn self

BUt can you give yourself a pedicure?

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 12:53 PM  

Geez, such a pile of spiky, bad tempered hostility.
Some of you fellows would feel a lot better if you went outside and whacked on something with an axe for a while.
One would think Im on File770 (where Im banned btw).

Blogger Unknown October 23, 2016 12:57 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 12:57 PM  

The gay ambassador does not impress.

The culture there is indulgent towards gays (an ancient trait actually) but they definitely have a very limited status. Its the nature of Philippine communal culture. Its an iron hand in a very, very heavily padded velvet glove. But its an iron hand regardless.

Anonymous RabidRatel October 23, 2016 1:01 PM  

buwaya puti wrote:Geez, such a pile of spiky, bad tempered hostility.

You are getting trolled by rabids trained in trolling gammas. You let your gamma-hood hang out. Put the hoodie back up, read alphagame to get rid of some of the noisome gamma-ness, and let it lie.

If you can't let it go, buy a ticket to South Africa. I can apprentice you to a couple of Diesel mechanics who know how to get rid of the whining you have so successfully shown here.

Blogger Unknown October 23, 2016 1:02 PM  

Buwaya, this is KKK, I want to explain this to you as gently as possible.

No one here cares or gives a F#$! about your history lessons on the Philippines. So your internet ramblings are an embarrassment to yourself and the Most Powerful Race in the World.

VD cited your comment to illustrate that you have not acculturated into American society. That's it. He wanted to prove that you're not American, and judging by your butthurt and early statements, you don't consider yourself one.

I think that the real source of contention is your "owe us big time" comment, which has russled some of VD's readers jimmies, which VD and the readers have interpreted as giving Visas and green cards to Filipinos as Historical reparations. If that was not your intention then clarify.

Personally, I don't think the US owes Filipinos anything, and viceversa, but that's just me, and mainly because I find your Alt-History unconvincing.

From what I can tell on your writings, you're a Filipino intellectual (probably graduated from UP) who is suffering from a severe case of butthurt due to the Philippines' geopolitical and historical circumstances.

That would explain why you've have devoted so much time commenting on the last few posts. But as I've already said, nobody cares.

The readers of VD tend to be nationalists (I've been lurking here for years), so they agree with you that America should not be in Asia. The only source of problem, I think, is that you want them to care. Otherwise, why bother writing walls of texts?

So tama na. There's no point in dragging this further. They don't care about the what-ifs, and Pinas is a tangential issue to their main concerns, which include the election, immigration and the demographic problems in the Western World.

They have their own problems. Let's focus on ours.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 1:07 PM  

Unknown,
This site deals with all sorts of things, history, culture, economics, science fiction and fantasy, politics, football, and at iba pa.

Also, international site, international readers, even international authors.

Also free floating hostility. Im used to it.

No, "owe" does not mean anyone deserves green cards. However, "owe" does mean they should stop slagging the Phils. as ungrateful wretches. The balance of offenses/favors on this score goes heavily the other way.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 1:09 PM  

Unknown,
This site deals with all sorts of things, history, culture, economics, science fiction and fantasy, politics, football, and at iba pa.

Also, international site, international readers, even international authors.

Also free floating hostility. Im used to it.

No, "owe" does not mean anyone deserves green cards. However, "owe" does mean they should stop slagging the Phils. as ungrateful wretches. The balance of offenses/favors on this score goes heavily the other way.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 1:09 PM  

The gay ambassador does not impress.

The culture there is indulgent towards gays (an ancient trait actually) but they definitely have a very limited status. Its the nature of Philippine communal culture. Its an iron hand in a very, very heavily padded velvet glove. But its an iron hand regardless.

Anonymous RabidRatel October 23, 2016 1:13 PM  

buwaya puti wrote:Also, international site, international readers, even international authors.

No. This is Vox Day's site. Yes, a lot of us is not American, but we are not plastering walls of text over our buthurt over the action (current and past) of the USA in particular or western civilization in general. Believe me, the Phillipines are not the only country to have been screwed over by the international elite.

Blogger Unknown October 23, 2016 1:15 PM  

Buwaya, I give up.

Sa tingin ko kulang ka lang sa pansin pero baka may ibang dahilan ka. Fine. Go on. It's your time and energy you're wasting. Just try not to make the rest of us look too autistic.

Anonymous BGKB October 23, 2016 1:18 PM  

The Filipino bukkake industry would be booming! I guess you didn't hear about the ambassador Obama sent there?

You can't claim legitimacy for the laws you like and illegitimacy for the ones you don't like. That's absurd

The (wish they had dual loyalty) jews that pushed the 1965 law, since at least before 1913, did so knowing it would damage America and they would profit from the losses.

The readers of VD tend to be nationalists Even the puffs can shoot tight shot groups.

Blogger Cataline Sergius October 23, 2016 1:22 PM  

@95. buwaya puti

Which of the families is backing Duterte?

I can't find any reference to that.

Or did he actually get to the top without anyone's blessing?

Blogger Scott October 23, 2016 1:23 PM  

The Japs attacked us simply because you had bases there.

Moron.

The Philippines are well within the Japs radius of occupation, it would have been ridiculous for them not to take it.

Buwaya must go back.

Blogger bara October 23, 2016 1:32 PM  

No obligation assumed. I'm here to offer something of value and receive equal in exchange. If I don't feel free to kick me out - I take my continued stay as part of the bargain.
For the identification part: Christian values (I'm Catholic), individual freedom (no 2nd amendment there) and rule of law (a joke over there).
And I'm lucky I'm just I'm a different variety of corn (except for my accent I can pass for Western European) and I'm not moving into a rice field.

Blogger bara October 23, 2016 1:34 PM  

Also, please keep making it hard to immigrate. I do not want my compatriots to take over (see fleeing above).

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 1:36 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 1:39 PM  

Re Dutertes backers - the biggest name is Lucio Tan. Look him up.
Otherwise Duterte succeeded without major money, it was a very Trump-like performance, mainly lots of straight media coverage.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 1:40 PM  

Scott, see re Quezon. He accepted that the Japs would take it.

Blogger Daniel October 23, 2016 2:09 PM  

Japaneses in argentina got fully integrated in 1st generation. They are efficient even for that?

Blogger JaimeInTexas October 23, 2016 2:14 PM  

The Japanese doomed themselves by overreaching and overexpanding their perimeter. Any country not requiring occupation would have been to Japan's advantage.

Blogger Michael Z. Williamson October 23, 2016 2:35 PM  

I shouldn't waste time posting, as an immigrant.

But as an American, I guess I'm really glad you decided to leave.

Please don't return.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 3:00 PM  

Michael,
But I havent decided to leave. Why should I?
Would you have everyone else extend this rule to the hundreds of thousands of expat Americans abroad? That would be interesting.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 3:00 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger rcocean October 23, 2016 3:34 PM  

The Philippines were going to be someone's colony in 1898, if not the USA's then Germany's or Japans. Most likely the Germans, since they desperately wanted it and had already negotiated a deal to buy the Marianas and Marshalls from Spain.

Of the Japanese, would've picked in off in WW1, just like they did Germany's other pacific colonies.

It should be remember the Filipinos could have had immediate independence under Wilson but they didn't want it. They wanted independence with special trade status the USA more or less guaranteeing their safety.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 3:54 PM  

But the Philippines was not a postage-stamp place like the Marianas or Marshalls, the islands of which could be occupied by a landing party off a gunboat. Someone would have to land a division of troops, or more likely a couple of times that, and sustain them in a tropical environment for years. The Germans didnt have the troops in Asia (see above) and it was difficult and expensive to send that many so far.
The US found that all to be very expensive.
Much more likely that someone would have cut a protection deal with Aguinaldo.

True re the Jones act/Wilson. The Filipino politicians as usual wanted to have their cake and eat it too, especially Quezon. He became a Washington player and manipulator. A master of divergent messages. "Independence, but not yet" he would say privately. The worm turned though. Shanghai and Nanking scared the crap out of all of them.

Blogger Cataline Sergius October 23, 2016 4:44 PM  

@Michael Z. Williamson

So long as you are here and we are hopelessly off topic anyway.

This is my list of Top Nine Guns for Hipsters

Was there any I should have added?

Anonymous Vox calls me RC October 23, 2016 4:58 PM  

Mad Mike!  How the hell you been, man?

Anonymous Enigma October 23, 2016 5:04 PM  

@14:

Oh, it's definitely the same in the Philippines. Not only based on skin tone but region.

A lot of Filipinos in the north think Filipinos in the south are peasants, trash, and even inhuman.

I grew up in the American South and have never heard people openly talk worse about other races (and it's not even close) than I've heard Filipinos talk about Filipinos from other islands. Let alone Indians, Arabs, and blacks.

That's why it's so absurd for them to talk about how terrible the "white" US has treated their "little brown brothers".

Tons of leftism coursing through their media and schools.

Blogger VD October 23, 2016 5:08 PM  

But as an American, I guess I'm really glad you decided to leave.

You're not an American, Mike. You're a U.S. Citizen. Look at your documentation.

Geographic relocation and paperwork don't alter your DNA.

Your self-serving redefinition of "American" reduces the concept to nothing more than government-issue paperwork. I note that people living on land that used to belong to the American Indians aren't Cherokees either.

Anonymous Enigma October 23, 2016 5:32 PM  

"The Malays, Indonesians, Siamese were not treated with the grotesque savagery we were because we were a loyal ally."

The Japanese killed millions of Indonesians during the war, several times more than Filipinos.

Blogger Cataline Sergius October 23, 2016 5:48 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger M Cephas October 23, 2016 5:52 PM  

I agree that he is not American, nor does it sound like he wants to be. I disagree that his great-grandchildren will not be as loyal to America as their immigrant roots.

Even most children of immigrants, let alone great-grandchildren, will side with America over a foreign nation if it actually came down to it. The only time I see it not being the case is if they are raised to hate America, like many Muslims are.

Blogger JaimeInTexas October 23, 2016 6:10 PM  

Cataline. No. Not even familiar with the titltle. Heading to your book review.

Blogger JaimeInTexas October 23, 2016 6:12 PM  

I guess not. Post deleted.

Blogger rcocean October 23, 2016 6:21 PM  

"Someone would have to land a division of troops, or more likely a couple of times that, and sustain them in a tropical environment for years.'

The United States didn't find it difficult and we had an Army of 65,000 men for a year, which later decreased to 50,000 for about 2 years. The total deaths due do disease and battle for 3 years (1899-1902) didn't exceed 5,000. The Filipinos had no modern weapons and were easily defeated in a stand up fight - after the first six months it was primarily a guerrilla war. BTW, much of the food and non-weapon logistics were supplied by Japan and British controlled Hong Kong.

Blogger rcocean October 23, 2016 6:22 PM  

Given the Germans had a standing army of almost 500,000 men, finding 50,000 to subdue the Philippines would not have been a problem.

Blogger rcocean October 23, 2016 6:26 PM  

BTW, I agree with BT's main point that we let the Filipinos down in 1942. We should either have sent enough men to defend the Philippines or we should have "Neutralized" the Islands. FDR didn't want to either, which was reason for the disaster in 1942.

Blogger Cataline Sergius October 23, 2016 6:41 PM  

@121 Jaime in Texas

Whoops sorry. That first link was bad.

http://reactionarytimes.blogspot.com/2015/08/book-recommendation-shattered-sword.html

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 6:47 PM  

The Germans could supply no more than @1000 men for China in 1900, and none at all for the Peking expedition. Going all out they eventually delivered @16,000 men, which took @6 months to fully arrive in Asia, and that was with the vehement support of the Kaiser. The High Command was generally opposed to the adventure.
Judgement call; I don't see it.
The Filipinos in the first line were armed with the modern Spanish Mausers, and the rest with Remingtons; on the whole they were better armed than the Americans, technically, but very short of ammo and they were poorly trained in musketry. Both could have been fixed by the seizure of Spanish arsenals in Manila. They also had several thousand modern Austrian Steyr Mannlicher rifles with limited ammo supplied with Deweys funds. They were also making arrangements for arms, notably from Japan, which would have come through if the USN weren't in the way.

Blogger Dexter October 23, 2016 6:51 PM  

If your country is controlled by another, and is not permitted to have its own foreign policy, the controlling country is morally obliged to see that its own foreign policy maneuvers (like embargoes against Japan) dont cause you harm.

Nope. The only moral obligation for the US government, in conducting US foreign policy, is to put the interests of its own nation and people first. All other considerations are secondary.

The US picked a war with Japan and then didnt adequately protect the Philippines from the result.

Yes they did, by defeating Japan and liberating the Philippines. The latter, by the way, was not necessary to achieve the former.

However, "owe" does mean they should stop slagging the Phils. as ungrateful wretches. The balance of offenses/favors on this score goes heavily the other way.

Nope.

Japan would have occupied the Philippines in 1941 even if there were no US bases or forces there. Simple matter of geography. Indeed, Japan would have occupied the PI long before 1941 if the US had not been there.

Blogger Cataline Sergius October 23, 2016 6:56 PM  

@Jaime in Texas

The main argument of that the book presses is that while all of Germany's initial conquest acted as a force multiplier. All of Japan's were force degrader.

From Czechoslovakia Germany got the Skoda Works. From Poland they got ports and East Prussia. From Belgium they got Fabrique Nationale. From France itself they got lots more of everything.

Whereas the only thing Japan's conquests got them was low tech agrarian infrastructure. IE peasants and rice paddies.

Each colonial possession captured simply weighed them down more and more.

The logistic train was close to the breaking point when they launched Operation MI.

Blogger bob kek mando ( Grab 'Em By The Pussy And Their Hearts And Minds Will Follow ) October 23, 2016 6:58 PM  

Buwaya Puti
You owe us, big time.


haven't read the thread so i don't know if anyone else pointed this out:
notice how he claims to have an 'American' attitude ...
but he's fully onboard with the Marxist, collectivist habit of assigning guilt and claiming grievances based on the COLLECTIVE?

yeah, historically not a very American attitude.

while his accusations about the pre-1930 US actions actually have merit, on a collective basis, his complaints about WW2 are false.

it was the freely given allegiance of his forefathers that the Japs hated.

if he has a problem with the way his ancestors chose to act or the way they were persecuted, he needs to take it up with the Japs or the old men of the Philippines.

Anonymous Discard October 23, 2016 7:05 PM  

Keep swinging, buyawa. I admire your grit, even if I disagree. You're a Filipino with a P.I. point of view, but not a lying traitor. I'd send you home, but I'd let you clean out your bank accounts and sell your house for current market value first.

Blogger weka October 23, 2016 7:08 PM  

@128. Cataline, the Japanese had to go south to get Oil (Brunei) and rubber (Malaya). They could not leave a base that could prevent their convoys bringing oil and rubber back to Nippon.
And rice feeds troops. 'If you steal the fish from a man, he will catch another so you can steal it tomorrow' (hat tip Shlock Mercenary)

@129 Bob, always read the thread. The Ilk and Dreadilk are watching, and they are unsubtle and wrathful.

Blogger Harsh October 23, 2016 7:16 PM  

I shouldn't waste time posting, as an immigrant.

But as an American, I guess I'm really glad you decided to leave.

Please don't return.


You certainly shouldn't waste your time because your first two sentences are contradictory and your third comes under the category IDGAF.

Blogger Harsh October 23, 2016 7:17 PM  

Guys, stop feeding the wog. His opinion doesn't matter.

Anonymous gggs October 23, 2016 7:22 PM  

"I note that people living on land that used to belong to the American Indians aren't Cherokees either."

Of course it's many things that make them not Cherokee. It's their parentage. It's the principles they live by. It's the form of government they embrace. It's the history of a time and place they embrace. It's always much more than simply DNA. If all it took to be American was DNA, then America would have existed 1000 years ago. But it didn't did it.

Blogger Cataline Sergius October 23, 2016 7:29 PM  

@131 Weka

I am just relating Shattered Sword's arguments, albeit in drastically abbreviated form.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 7:35 PM  

Dexter, think that through.
I mean it, this is the devil speaking.
"Thou shalt not kill" applies even to foreigners. If for some reason of state you are somehow driven to think this is necessary, it is nevertheless a sin.
You have painted yourself into a very evil corner there.

Anonymous Discard October 23, 2016 7:40 PM  

75. Gggs: I think that the affinity that some Americans have for an ancestral European nation is less a matter of curiosity about their ancestors than it is about discovering a place where some of the attitudes they've inherited from their great-grandparents are accepted as the norm.
For myself, I did not even know what my European roots were until I was assigned to report on them in the 8th grade. Yet, when I was required by my job, with no choice in the matter, to go to my "homeland", I felt much more at ease than in other countries. I'd guess that it was something like what David Hackett Fischer described in "Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America". Certain foreign ways had been absorbed in the cradle for generations, passed down without any sense of loyalty to the land of their origin.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 7:41 PM  

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Blogger weka October 23, 2016 7:42 PM  

@135. Since I live in NZ I'm quite aware that the Japanese wanted NZ and OZ. We have coal and oil. If they had stayed out of Hawai'i my grandfather would have had to learn Japanese, because the British Empire was stretched... NZ soldiers fought in North Africa and Italy because they were needed there.

BTW, your hipster gun list needs the Steyr and more glocks.

Anonymous Discard October 23, 2016 7:47 PM  

133. Harsh: The Wog is the topic of the post. What else should we comment on?

135. Catalina Sergius: "Shattered Sword" is a keeper.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 7:58 PM  

Bob kek mando etc. and various others -

In what way do I have an American attitude?
Rather, I understand yours very well, but it isn't mine. And, of course, there are a lot of American attitudes, which as we see do not get along very well.

If you read below this came about on a matter of what foreign leaders were doing regarding developments in US foreign policy. I am trying to explain a foreign point of view, which one would reasonably expect to be relevant in such a matter, but apparently not.

I dont think Mr. Trump would be as stupid as to ignore what the other side thinks, he certainly doesnt ignore that in "Art of the Deal", nor would you if wargaming this situation.

There are other people in this world and you need to deal with them.

As for Filipino attitudes - these are complex, this isn't a simple thing. No society is simple.
There is mixed affection and resentment, love and distrust, exasperation and longing. Its a subject for poets, not trolls.

If you want a good primer on this, I recommend Karnows "In Our Image" which does indeed get into what an American attitude is, and how it differs from ours.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 8:04 PM  

Discard,
I appreciate your appreciation, but I figure I will be dead before I sell anything.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 8:10 PM  

I invented the "wog" - we ran out of vodka for black russians so I substituted gin.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 8:15 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 8:15 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger buwaya puti October 23, 2016 8:15 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Tipsy October 23, 2016 8:52 PM  

A friend of mine was a graduate student at Berkeley and worked with a Chinese national in his lab. On one occasion, the Chinese embassy e-mailed all the local graduate students and told them to go to San Francisco to protest an embassy of a country that China considered to have crossed a line of sorts. The protest apparently was loud almost to the point of violence.

In other words, China is taking advantage of our freedom of assembly to achieve its foreign policy objectives, with students who feel no loyalty toward the US.

Anonymous Hezekiah Garrett October 23, 2016 10:56 PM  

@62 Contra Vox, the US became a multiethnic empire at least by the time President Washington led troops to destroy stills in pursuit of excise.

Blogger Demonic Professor El October 23, 2016 11:57 PM  

Buwaya is, if nothing else, patriotic :) And the Philippines do grow some tasty chocolate, have some decent beaches, and huge-ass bats. Basically foxes with wings, those things.

Most of the Filipinos I met overseas were friendly and dug Americans. They were actually pretty grateful - for the wars against Spain, Japan, and helping to fight the Muzzies in Mindanao. Granted, most of the Filipinos I met were pretty Catholic...and distrusted Obama.

Shoot, I remember talking to a Filipino and an Indonesian (Christian girl, very friendly!) and they thought Obobo was the Antichrist!

Anecdotal, sure, but hey, there's some cool ones out there.

Blogger JP October 24, 2016 1:10 AM  

I walked the bridge over the river Kwai, which is famous for a couple thousand British POWs dying in slave labor camps. The locals, however, were much more angry about the ~300k Thais worked/starved to death for the same railroad. I don't think Japan was very friendly with anyone.

Anonymous Pennywise October 24, 2016 6:15 PM  

Of course yesterday's Immigrants who came here legally and were conferred citizenship and had children are, and will always be, Americans. It's not even up for debate.

Blogger Roger G2 October 24, 2016 11:06 PM  

You're so right. Every single time.
I remember the screaming over Obama getting elected: "y'all's president was a stupid evil white man, set the world on fire, now we got our president and y'all hatin' on him coz he black."
"We" voted for him and "we" don't make such distinctions about Americans, past or present. All the crybullying was coming from people who couldn't bother to call themselves American without a hyphenation anyway, so I can't bring myself to consider them as American-though I've served next to their brothers who'd have given their lives for me and didn't need any such bullshit labels to explain their difference as opposed to their proud heritage as one of us.

Blogger Dexter October 25, 2016 9:47 AM  

Dexter, think that through.
I mean it, this is the devil speaking.
"Thou shalt not kill" applies even to foreigners. If for some reason of state you are somehow driven to think this is necessary, it is nevertheless a sin.
You have painted yourself into a very evil corner there.


What are you talking about?

"Thou shalt not kill" has no relevance to anything I said in 127.

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