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Tuesday, October 25, 2016

Reality and gun control

The New York Times reluctantly concludes that gun laws are not an effective way to stop mass shootings:
The New York Times examined all 130 shootings last year in which four or more people were shot, at least one fatally, and investigators identified at least one attacker. The cases range from drug-related shootouts to domestic killings that wiped out entire families to chance encounters that took harrowing wrong turns.

They afford a panoramic view of some of the gun control debate’s fundamental issues: whether background checks and curbs on assault weapons limit violence; whether the proliferation of open-carry practices and rules allowing guns on college campuses is a spark to violence; whether it is too easy for dangerously mentally ill or violent people to get guns.

The findings are dispiriting to anyone hoping for simple legislative fixes to gun violence. In more than half the 130 cases, at least one assailant was already barred by federal law from having a weapon, usually because of a felony conviction, but nonetheless acquired a gun. Including those who lacked the required state or local permits, 64 percent of the shootings involved at least one attacker who violated an existing gun law.

Of the remaining assailants, 40 percent had never had a serious run-in with the law and probably could have bought a gun even in states with the strictest firearm controls. Typically those were men who killed their families and then themselves. Only 14 shootings involved assault rifles, illustrating their outsize role in the gun debate.
The fact is that banning no-fault divorce would reduce mass shootings considerably more than even the most stringent gun laws. Institutionalizing the mentally disturbed, banning psychotropic drugs used for depression, legalizing street drugs, and eliminating gun-free zones would further reduce their incidence.

Unfortunately, as with most solutions proposed by the fearful and the irrational, gun control isn't actually about reducing gun violence, let alone lethal violence, it is about making the frightened rabbits feel better about their inability to defend themselves. That is why they will continue to push for it even though it is known that it cannot achieve its nominal purpose.

Labels:

118 Comments:

Blogger Tom Kratman October 25, 2016 6:35 AM  

At the rabbit level, yes, clearly. Above the level of the individual, no account, shivering wabbit (sic), though, there's an instinctive fear that, if they don't take our guns, eventually we'll turn them on the elites. Which, eventually, we will.

Blogger joe b October 25, 2016 6:43 AM  

Started off with data, ended up with a deluge of anecdotes and quotes from anti-gun orgs. I hope the appropriate portions gain traction in the wild.

Blogger Minecraft Chuck October 25, 2016 6:49 AM  

But what about the children? After all, if it saves just one life, it's worth it. We must ban blenders! Oh, wait, sorry, wrong rant.

Really, since when does the NYT print facts? How did they allow this travesty of SocJus to happen? Aren't they properly afraid of MiniTru?

No matter. Their readership is impervious to facts and logic. All will continue as they have foreseen and proclaimed.

Blogger Cataline Sergius October 25, 2016 6:53 AM  

@Tom Kratman

There is nothing remotely rational about "Sensible Gun Safety" laws. They know intellectually that legal gun owners aren't the problem.

I think there might be something else at play here as well.

Something they don't rationally realize.

I am certain what this really is, is a desire to banish the enemy tribe by destroying the banners and symbols of the that tribe.

Stupid?

Sure!

But that won't stop them from trying it. In truth, it seems to be part of human nature. The English banned Irish Dancing and the speaking of Gaelic in Ireland. In Scotland they banned bagpipes (completely understandable) and kilts (which they introduced in the first place.) Lot of other examples you can find across the world and across time.

They all have one thing in common.

Epic Failure. Those things all became cult objects, to their respective cultures.

Blogger David Power October 25, 2016 6:54 AM  

In a sane world:

Trump would be in the White House
Hillary would be in the Jail House
Obama would be in the Dog House
Soros would be in the Poor House
Bill would be in the Whore House
The GOP would be in the Mad House
And the NYT would be in the Out House

Blogger Phillip George October 25, 2016 7:01 AM  

fighting for things that cannot work:
1. regaining your virginity
2. legislating for everyone to be nice to each other
3. reducing atmospheric plant fertiliser
4. free trade agreement. [its an oxymoron]
5. pretending there is a fault free divorce
6, equality. No, people aren't equal. Gay normal isn't.
7. Novus Seclorum Ordo - fantasies for grownups. Allah hu Akbar to your domestic bliss
8. relativism - my give an inch doesn't equal yours.
9 First cousin marriages.
10 magic dirt
11. University safe spaces
12 A declaration of human rights without a declaration of human responsibilities
13 Dark matter and dark energy
14 History without the Resurrection.
15. Science without Natural Philosophy.
etc.
good post Vox.

Blogger Boko Harambe October 25, 2016 7:05 AM  

The lessons in rhetoric continue to build. Thank you.

Legally institutionalizing the mentally ill would make great strides in reducing certain crimes. I'm no historian of the matter but my understanding was that it was somewhat difficult to get someone committed. Of course people will stop long enough to point and shriek about Roosevelt Island or Perkins-Gilman's "The Yellow Wallpaper" or Cuckoos Nest and be all indignant for a few minutes.

Anonymous M.W. Peak October 25, 2016 7:07 AM  

Institutionalizing mentally ill men is only a partial solution. I would say that a good portion of mentally ill men are so because of the influence of angry, empowered, bitter women in their lives. So therapy through neo-masculinity might be a better solution.

Blogger weka October 25, 2016 7:20 AM  

Proactive Mental Health Care... perhaps saves lives: there was a halving of the suicide rate (from memory) in Auckland when they finally got round to staffing the services. Which required they literally doubled the number of staff.

/rant/ It takes at least seven our eight years to get a competent mental health nurse from starting nursing school. It takes about ten years to get a competent psychiatrist assuming a four year medical school. Where I live its longer -- six year medical school, mandatory 2 year internship and seven years on average to complete and pass a minimum five year course with very tough exit exams. You cannot just 'make' workers. /end rant/.

What does save lives on a population level is SSRIs for depression, Lithium for bipolar, and clozapine for schizophrenia. All other data involves proxy measures.

Since I'm not American, take this as you will, but the only way to get a handgun in NZ is to steal it off a cop or serviceman, or pistol club. Long guns, for hunting common. Handguns rare. Murders exist, but are generally, as in the UK, knife crimes.

OpenID basementhomebrewer October 25, 2016 7:22 AM  

This is a feint by the NYT. They are finally going to accept the facts so that they can draw a different conclusion than normal people would. Their conclusion is going to be banning all guns is the only answer because if no one has a gun then the 60% who shouldn't have them would have a harder time getting them. The 40% who can pass a background check still wouldn't be able to get a gun etc. It's all still irrational but it let's them avoid talking about the damning facts against their narrative and instead virtue signal to their hearts content.

Blogger Fenris Wulf October 25, 2016 7:26 AM  

Conclusion drawn by NYT readers: "The problem is worse than we thought. Legislation doesn't work because the root cause is cultural. We need to change the culture by abolishing masculinity." The Left has a long history of failed policies > search for scapegoats > more draconian policies.

Blogger Boko Harambe October 25, 2016 7:33 AM  

weka, I don't know if it's similar in the US, but I do know that people who need non-acute mental health care can wait up to 12 weeks, sometimes longer, for intake and eval. Acute care obviously moves faster, especially in suicide risk cases or criminal behavior.

Many insurance providers do not participate in-network with mental health docs. You can get an SSRI/SSAI or a benzo or other anxiolytics from your GP but more specialized care is an expensive waiting game.

Gee, it's almost like they want people to remain sick.

Blogger Tom Kratman October 25, 2016 7:35 AM  

CS:

Had an interesting epiphany some not so very long time ago about lefties trying to ban scary and militaristic appearances, irrespective of realities. We do _exactly_ the same thing, concentration on appearances-wise, in having a strong preference for arms that look both military and scary, irrespective of realities.

I will get to test this with my grandson in a couple of weeks when I offer to change his assigned weapon from a .22 SCAR clone to a .22 Walther Uzi clone with cooler folding stock. He went for the "SCAR" over the GSG-5, because his SF dad carries a SCAR, but the cool factor of Uzi is very high, too....

Blogger Lazarus October 25, 2016 7:36 AM  

weka wrote:What does save lives on a population level is SSRIs for depression,

On the other hand:

A review of trials of antidepressants taken by healthy adults with no signs of a mental health disorder has found the drugs used to treat the illness doubled the harms related to suicide and violence.

Experts working on the study said the analysis was undertaken because the harms of antidepressants, including the risk of suicide, are often explained away as if they are disease symptoms or only a problem in children.


http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/720271/depression-treatment-antidepressants-drugs-suicide-risk

Blogger Fenris Wulf October 25, 2016 7:46 AM  

The biggest danger is when a psychiatric patient abruptly goes off his meds without tapering off. It can cause a psychotic episode and violent behavior. It happens a lot with outpatient committment, i.e. court-ordered drugging. Some of these meds are a living hell for the patient and nobody would take them voluntarily.

Blogger Salt October 25, 2016 7:55 AM  

Acquiescence is Strength, as Winston found out. I'm sure he felt better in accepting the lie.

Blogger Basil Makedon October 25, 2016 8:01 AM  

Any rational thinker would conclude the Gun Control is not actually about controlling guns. After all, the technology of guns is ancient and most modern guns are little changed in design from 1900 even for semi-autos.

While I agree in the abstract that institutionalizing the mentally ill would be far more effective in combating the low level crime/chaos of American cities, this is too dangerous a power to release into the wild. I have no doubt that the Left (always projecting) would use that power to institutionalize many of us. The Left sees crime-think and wrong-think as insanity.

Blogger dc.sunsets October 25, 2016 8:02 AM  

there's an instinctive fear that, if they don't take our guns, eventually we'll turn them on the elites. Which, eventually, we will
Given the history of "elites," even in the absence of guns only the cultural conformity of East Asians, developed over numerous centuries, could protect them from eventually being destroyed. No tree grows to the sky and no paradigm is perpetual.

Blogger Ransom Smith October 25, 2016 8:19 AM  

IF you ever want to freak a "Gunsense" person out, talk about casting and loading your own rounds.

I swear, they'll explode.

Blogger FALPhil October 25, 2016 8:22 AM  

@10 basementhomebrewer

Their conclusion is going to be banning all guns is the only answer because if no one has a gun then the 60% who shouldn't have them would have a harder time getting them.

Would that include cops? Because if it doesn't, and you really want one, you can always take one from a cop.

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey October 25, 2016 8:26 AM  

"Lot of other examples you can find across the world and across time."

Yes, such as the banning of English flags, symbols, and heritage in England itself.

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey October 25, 2016 8:30 AM  

"The fact is that banning no-fault divorce would reduce mass shootings considerably more than even the most stringent gun laws."

Yes, agreed, very good point. But try getting such a ban passed under the current regime. They'd rather see families destroyed and more gun deaths. Muh eat, pray, love!

Blogger Nate October 25, 2016 8:35 AM  

That whole piece reads like the author's dog just died.

Anonymous Avalanche October 25, 2016 8:44 AM  

From the article: "After nearly two decades of expanding legal access to firearms, a succession of horrific shootings like Mr. Houser’s have refocused attention on *crazy person* control."

FIF them

Blogger Cataline Sergius October 25, 2016 8:45 AM  

@Tom KRatman

You're a good grandpa.

Mine gave me a BB gun and a hatchet when turned seven. I still remember the look on my Mom's face at my birthday party.

Blogger Cataline Sergius October 25, 2016 8:48 AM  

That whole piece reads like the author's dog just died.

Prep work? Chelsea maybe wild about the idea but Gun Control does not hold magic memories for her mother. And the ground has shifted our way quite a bit more since 1994

Anonymous Joe Blowe October 25, 2016 8:49 AM  

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Any one that can't handle the responsibilities and obligations of being a free Man in our free society should be removed from it. The brutes and savages killed off and the lazy, the crazy, and degenerate exiled. Why should we give up OUR civilization and the benefits it creates just because a few can't handle living in it.

Blogger Erynne October 25, 2016 9:02 AM  

After reading 'Go Directly to Jail' from the Cato Institute, I can see where they're going with the gun control stuff. EPA regulations and medical industry fraud regulations all but guarantee everyone is a criminal and the 4th and 5th amendments have already become worthless. The second amendment seems to be visually easy for people to understand, either you can have guns or not (although if you're a felon even possessing one bullet by accident can land you in prison for decades). The feds want to over regulate guns so no matter who you are you are breaking some regulation by owning a gun and become a criminal in the eyes of the law. The 2nd amendment just happens to be the amendment most fought for by citizens, so it isn't a complete fiction yet. Imagine if people fought for every amendment of the Bill of Rights like they do the 2nd amendment? I can't picture anyone except libertarians even interested in reforming or abolishing huge swaths of the penal code. People on the right love their guns, which is fine, but they sit by idly while their local factories are regulated out of existence. Last random point: Earth Day was an abomination and Nixon creating the EPA needs to be taught in more critical depth.

Anonymous Avalanche October 25, 2016 9:03 AM  

And: "The fact that so many cases involved attackers already barred from owning guns goes right to a central issue in the gun control debate: whether background checks by licensed dealers should be expanded to include gun shows and private sellers."

Non-sequitor: that cases involved shooters "already barred from owning guns" means anything about background checks IF AND ONLY IF those shooters actually got their guns via gun shows and private sellers!!

(But, alas, that's dialectic, not rhetoric...)

"Mr. Trump argued that tougher police tactics, not tighter firearms laws, were the remedy for gun homicides that have recently spiked in some major cities."

Like, say" stop and frisk?!

Blogger dc.sunsets October 25, 2016 9:07 AM  

Nothing is new under the sun:
Gun control is a moral crusade against a benighted, barbaric citizenry. This is demonstrated not only by the ineffectualness of gun control in preventing crime, and by the fact that it focuses on restricting the behavior of the law-abiding rather than apprehending and punishing the guilty, but also by the execration that gun control proponents heap on gun owners and their evil instrumentality, the NRA.
snipped
Conservatives must understand that the antipathy many liberals have for gun owners arises in good measure from their statist utopianism. This habit of mind has nowhere been better explored than in The Republic. There, Plato argues that the perfectly just society is one in which an unarmed people exhibit virtue by minding their own business in the performance of their assigned functions, while the government of philosopher-kings, above the law and protected by armed guardians unquestioning in their loyalty to the state, engineers, implements, and fine-tunes the creation of that society, aided and abetted by myths that both hide and justify their totalitarian manipulation.

Published in 1993; Jeffrey Snyder's brilliant A Nation of Cowards.
http://jim.com/cowards.htm

Anonymous Avalanche October 25, 2016 9:15 AM  

And please go read what Larry Correia writes (as always, brilliant!):

http://monsterhunternation.com/2015/12/03/guns-and-vultures/

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr October 25, 2016 9:15 AM  

Personally, I think much of the gun control debate is driven by class warfare. It's an idea pushed by the Urban Snob Left, targeted at the rural/suburban middle class. Here in the U.S., shooting and hunting (NOT the same thing, BTW) are seen as lower-middle-class activities.

And never mind what it takes to be a serious competitor in the shooting sports. I've shot in nine different countries on three continents. The Urban Leftist Snobs are a pack of provincials.

Blogger dc.sunsets October 25, 2016 9:20 AM  

Everywhere I look I see a gulf, widening and deepening, between different people who, once this gulf reaches a threshold, will no longer be able to live under the same umbrella (political system.)

Guns, family "law," abortion, taxation/welfarism, superiority-before-the-law of legislated-from-the-bench special subsets of people (so-called minorities, sexual deviants, etc.)... any and all of these "wedge issues" are going to coalesce into rationales for open warfare, first in the political realm but when politics proves incapable of bridging the wide and deep chasms between factions, violence will spread from the ghettos to everywhere else.

I'm suspicious that the center will evaporate as it did in the USSR, suddenly leaving sub-states to navigate a new political reality.

It will be especially interesting to see how blue (welfarism-saturated) sub-states, so dependent upon the transfer of wealth and product from other, distant sub-states, will even survive once they can't distribute the gibsmedats that now keep a lid on their chronically dependent subpopulations.

Many of us may have to migrate in order to leave places where our adversaries establish power. In an ideal situation, the lefty-loon white rabbits will coalesce with high concentrations of their pet minority underclasses and the wolves will move to be with other wolves.

Then the latter will have no choice but to defend themselves from the former's overarching need to re-enslave the productive and re-establish the current Marxist "from those according to ability, to those according to need" BS.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 25, 2016 9:37 AM  

#13 would you be worried if your grandson wanted the ATI imported GSG STG-44 .22lr clone?

Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 25, 2016 9:44 AM  

The gun controllers are not going to disarm the young men of color, don't care how much they demonize old white men such as myself as being this or that kind of subhuman trash they are not going to disarm the young men of color.

Ain't gonna happen these young men of color come from societies armed to the gills and no pasty faced androgynous libtard is going to change those young men of color especially if the only operational method is to make gun control some racial jihad against old white men with a safe full of guns. It is like fighting WWII by having the USA attack Canada.

Anonymous Deplorable S E Delenda October 25, 2016 9:50 AM  

The problem is that when the NYT says something defies simple legislative fixes; you can be sure they have something far more expansive and invasive in mind.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) October 25, 2016 9:50 AM  

Here in the U.S., shooting and hunting (NOT the same thing, BTW) are seen as lower-middle-class activities.

That's laughably false. Upper middle class and rich people spend a ton of money on guns, hunting camps, and trips.

Blogger Nate October 25, 2016 9:54 AM  

"Personally, I think much of the gun control debate is driven by class warfare. It's an idea pushed by the Urban Snob Left, targeted at the rural/suburban middle class. Here in the U.S., shooting and hunting (NOT the same thing, BTW) are seen as lower-middle-class activities."

/facepalm

Where do you live?

Anonymous rienzi October 25, 2016 9:55 AM  

By far the easiest and cheapest way to dramatically reduce gun violence would be to roundup all of the dindu gangbangers, and drop them into the Rep. of the Congo.

Both countries IQ's. go up substantially.

win-win

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr October 25, 2016 10:08 AM  

@37, 38: I didn't say the idea that the shooting sports ARE lower-middle-class, merely that this is the image pushed by the Propaganda Press.

I shoot competitively at the international level - you don't want to know how much the travel bill for a match in Europe runs.

Blogger Nate October 25, 2016 10:12 AM  

": I didn't say the idea that the shooting sports ARE lower-middle-class, merely that this is the image pushed by the Propaganda Press"

No. That is not what you said. That may be what you have meant.. but it isn't what you said.

What you said suggests that shooting sports are seen as lower middle class activities. They are not. Skeet, trap, and clays are the games a rich man plays... and they are seen as games rich men play. The tools cost more than a lower-middle class man makes in a year.


Anonymous Desert Rat October 25, 2016 10:20 AM  

Hillary has said that addressing guns is a high priority. She has stated that the Heller decision needs to be addressed. So, she will appoint judges to the Supreme Court who will overturn Heller and render the Second Amendment null. She will then move to effectively ban firearms by regulation/taxation. I doubt an attempt to confiscate will occur as it would result in outright insurrection but leftists have a tenuous hold on reality and they might try it (plus Hillary is incompetent and incapable of understanding something like "unintended consequences"). The NYT believes she will win handily and are laying the groundwork for her agenda and nullifying the Second Amendment is an important part of that.

Anonymous Down and Out in... October 25, 2016 10:23 AM  

Guns in USA, conceptually, are not at all about hunting or self-defense, although both of things are quite useful and admirable. Gun ownership, fundamentally, is about a free people being able to defy their government if it becomes tyrannical, and to overthrow it if necessary. Talk about rabbits is sort of beside the point, except that bien-pensants are very annoying; however, talk about (((rabbits))) is extremely a propos.

And of course, there's a whole lot of practical matters which are functionally excluded from the rational public discourse, becuz raciss.

Blogger Robert Divinity October 25, 2016 10:28 AM  

The primary purpose of gun control is to render the people helpless. Some lower IQ types may believe it is to curtail violence and crime, but the chief proponents correctly see private firearms ownership as an impediment to dictatorship.

Anonymous BGKB October 25, 2016 10:32 AM  

Bill would be in the Whore House

He already is, that's why the Hookers for HilLIARy campaign is offering a free 1/2 hour to anyone who votes for HERpes. Bill doesn't pay when he is there so they will make money if he spends more time in DC. http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/04/18/hookers-for-hillary-bunny-ranch-employees-endorse-hillary-clinton/

The 40% who can pass a background check still wouldn't be able to get a gun etc.

In England most cops are not allowed to have guns but that didn't stop a black drug dealer from having a shootout with Operation Trident London's devoted to black gun crime swat team, leading to the race riots summer of 2011.

Over 900 guns taken from California cops over the last few years http://abc7news.com/news/report-944-law-enforcement-guns-lost-since-2010-in-ca/1402920/

The fact is that banning no-fault divorce would reduce mass shootings

No need to ban it just make no fault divorce=no alimony divorce and no woman would take it.

Skeet, trap, and clays are the games a rich man plays

You can join a gun club that already has the equipment set up.

Blogger Starbuck October 25, 2016 10:34 AM  

That whole piece reads like the author's dog just died. - Nate

Yea I shot him.

Was that too mean of me? Should I apologize to him and my wife and the entire country? Naw... I'd shoot his dog again.

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian October 25, 2016 10:39 AM  

So to sum this thread:

Go buy more guns and even more ammo.

Anonymous Down and Out in... October 25, 2016 10:40 AM  

"The primary purpose of gun control is to render the people helpless."

Thank you. This ^ , exactly. Well, I guess I would say to render the [white] people helpless. Still, very concise, and completely accurate. Have you ever considered the billboard business?

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) October 25, 2016 10:41 AM  

So to sum this thread:

Go buy more guns and even more ammo.


Let it be written, let it be done

Blogger JP October 25, 2016 10:47 AM  

South Africa's Firearms Control Act of 2000 was widely lauded as resulting in a dramatic reduction in gun violence and a sharp decline in "illegally held firearms" between the years 1999 and 2004. The problem? The act only came into effect in 2004, almost half a decade after its supposedly dramatic "effects".

What led to this dramatic decrease? Hell if I know. But it certainly wasn't the Firearms Control Act. All that act does is make it a frustrating exercise for the first-time purchaser, imposing such obstacles as getting two of your neighbours to consent to you owning a firearm, a doctor, psychiatrist or religious leader to testify to your state of mind, and purchasing the firearm BEFORE you can apply for a license, which often gets refused even after getting all the appropriate rubber stamps, leaving you with a firearm you now need to sell on secondhand market at a loss.

Anonymous patrick kelly October 25, 2016 10:47 AM  

"Go buy more guns and even more ammo."

Ok, if I have too.

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr October 25, 2016 10:52 AM  

@47: Slackers. I've been laying in ammo for the last two years.

Anonymous Benjamin Church October 25, 2016 10:59 AM  

Law-abiding toddlers are always killing themselves with legal guns. That's why we need gun control, duh.

Blogger JP October 25, 2016 11:12 AM  

Which is weird because on the one hand we want to save the children, but on the other we're trying to kill them before they're born.

Anonymous Benjamin Church October 25, 2016 11:35 AM  

I get it, we have to kill the toddlers before they can kill themselves and other people with their legally purchased guns.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd October 25, 2016 11:41 AM  

Napoleon 12pdr wrote:@47: Slackers. I've been laying in ammo for the last two years.

Slacker. I have ammunition that's old enough to vote. You don't have enough ammunition. Nobody ever has enough ammunition.

Vote for Trump on your way to and from the ammunition store.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Deplorable Cents October 25, 2016 12:09 PM  

NY Times concludes that controlling the guns of white people in Wyoming doesn't affect black people in Chicago?

Wow. That only took something like, hmm, 95 years! What will they learn next, eh?

Blogger dc.sunsets October 25, 2016 12:12 PM  

Buy more ammo? More guns?

Seriously...why? CCI has run its .22 Mini-mag line as fast as possible and STILL their product never seems to make it more than 50 miles from the plant. [My teeth are grinding.] People are lining their basement walls with ammo.

There are three possibilities:
1. He who has the most ammo wins, because the Zombie Apocalypse is coming and "He" is using AMC's The Walking Dead as a study guide.
2. Using any of dozens of databases available, people who have spent Big $$$ on truckload levels of ammo are simply targeted by Mr. State for enforcement of one of ten thousand statutes; one by one they'll be arrested, released and in between all their "stuff" will be carted off, never to be seen again.
3. The Greater Depression arrives (behind schedule, I'll add), and in an effort to remain solvent and keep his family warm and fed, the guy with an excess 20,000 rounds of 5.56 etc. will cart it case by case to the flea market or gun show and sell it for 80 cents, then 50 cents, then 5 cents on the dollar...as long as it's cash on the barrel head.

I figure #3 is likeliest. JMHO.

There is such a thing as too much, even if your preference is some exotic cartridge.

Blogger dc.sunsets October 25, 2016 12:17 PM  

Given that unarmed hands and feet are used to kill more people in a typical year than are rifles and shotguns combined, I'll never grasp why instead of an "assault weapon" ban they didn't pass a ban on assaulting people with hands or feet...or simply make "assault" illegal?

Anonymous An Extremely Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than A Basket Of Twenty Deplorable Cents October 25, 2016 12:18 PM  

It's not a new game. H.L. Mencken derided it in 1925.

https://fee.org/articles/the-uplifters-try-it-again/

The new law that it advocated, indeed, is one of the most absurd specimens of jackass legislation ever heard of, even in this paradise of legislative donkeyism.

Repeat: this is from 1925.

Blogger mushroom October 25, 2016 12:21 PM  

David Power wrote:In a sane world:

Trump would be in the White House

Hillary would be in the Jail House

Obama would be in the Dog House

Soros would be in the Poor House

Bill would be in the Whore House

The GOP would be in the Mad House

And the NYT would be in the Out House


Nothing to add. I just wanted to see it again.

Blogger James Dixon October 25, 2016 12:27 PM  

> IF you ever want to freak a "Gunsense" person out, talk about casting and loading your own rounds.

Or you can simply send them to this page: http://infogalactic.com/info/Improvised_firearm

They'll be having nightmares for weeks.

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr October 25, 2016 12:27 PM  

@58: The key is not buying a truckload of ammo at once, but a steady supply. I'll buy a case of match-grade .22LR annually, which is a bit less than I shoot per year. After a while, you have a decent stockpile - when everybody else was whining about not being able to get .22 ammo, I kept shooting.

Blogger mushroom October 25, 2016 12:34 PM  

Napoleon 12pdr wrote:@47: Slackers. I've been laying in ammo for the last two years.

I've been at it seriously since 2010. I do shoot quite a bit, though, so I don't have as much as one might think.

Blogger Nate October 25, 2016 12:35 PM  

"@47: Slackers. I've been laying in ammo for the last two years."

Dude... we've got folks here who've been buying 1000 rounds of 223 and 500 rounds of 2 or 3 pistol calibers every time there is a gun show.

I don't know what you consider a decent stock pile but odds are most of us would call it a decent start.

Blogger Nate October 25, 2016 12:36 PM  

"I've been at it seriously since 2010. I do shoot quite a bit, though, so I don't have as much as one might think."

noobs... I swear to God...

Anonymous Benjamin Church October 25, 2016 12:48 PM  

I have a eleventy bajillion rounds...

Blogger Conan the Cimmerian October 25, 2016 1:00 PM  

@58

If they come for it and you cannot hide it, give it away to those that will appreciate it.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey October 25, 2016 1:01 PM  

"No need to ban it just make no fault divorce=no alimony divorce and no woman would take it."

Actually, most of the money transferred is in the form of "child support." Presumptive father custody would solve that issue, though.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) October 25, 2016 1:04 PM  

I only have a few boxes of ammo, I lost the rest in a series of tragic canoe accidents

Blogger dc.sunsets October 25, 2016 1:54 PM  

when everybody else was whining about not being able to get .22 ammo

Was? I never stopped. On line and where I live it remains cheaper to shoot 9mm reloads than shoot rimfire. Quality solids (mini-mags or Fiocchi's equivalent) remain premium priced for the minutes they are in stock anywhere.

Having a lifetime supply of "maybe-go-bang" crap like Thunderbolts(tm) is of dubious value.

Anonymous An Extremely Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than A Basket Of Twenty Deplorable Cents October 25, 2016 1:55 PM  

Go ahead and ban handguns . See what happens next.

Back in 1940 the Brits subcontracted STEN gun parts to toy factories. We have better tools now that work much faster.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 25, 2016 2:46 PM  

Boko Harambe wrote:I'm no historian of the matter but my understanding was that it was somewhat difficult to get someone committed.
My grandfather was a county judge in South Dakota. When going through his papers, we found a letter he wrote to a local rancher, telling him that if he did not immediately release an Indian girl, whom he was keeping as what we would today call a sex slave, my grandfather would have him remanded to the state hospital for observation and diagnosis.

It was the last lever they had with him. The girl was of age (16 on the Rez, not under SD law). But desperate situations call for strong measures.

So, no, it was not at all difficult for law enforcement in the 1930s to get someone in the state mental hospital for evaluation. And the crazy ones were easy to keep there, if they were "a danger to themselves or others." Evaluation meant as much as a week in the nuthatch. Commitment by a district or superior court based on the diagnosis by one of the doctors at the state hospital with concurrence by a doctor in private practice, re-evaluated every 6 months.

Remarkably, the system was not significantly abused.

Anonymous Post Alley Crockpot Full of Crackpots October 25, 2016 2:49 PM  

@69: And between the two of you, we have the correct solution for Divorce Court Pay-Ola.

But of course you know that Not All Divorce Courts Are Like That.

@72: Who needs guns when you're a construction site "jobber" who has several buckets of roofing nails, plenty of nail guns, and other stuff to deploy In Case of Mass Armed Insurrection?

It doesn't even take a high school graduate to figure out how to make some of that stuff fly at high speed.

Not to leave the computer nerds out of this, mind you -- I expect we'll see some nasty shotgun wounds caused by shotgun shells full of those annoying little screws you use to fasten hard disk drives, at least when the stockpiles of lead shot run out. :-)

I have a little "gedankengame" I would sometimes play with friends: Mediaeval Fortress With Defenders 1350 versus Home Improvement Weekend Warriors With Tool Shed 2015.

Knights wind up surprised that they're losing limbs faster than that infamous Monty Python character, having no idea what unholy nightmare a chainsaw is before experiencing it. Archers find rapidly deployed metallic netting to be an insurmountable obstacle shortly before finding themselves within range of an improvised 2x4 catapult flinging Molotov cocktails at them. Drunken hobbyists chase down frightened denizens of the fortress with nail guns and sledge hammers while other drunken friends of the home improvement guy keep them corralled with high pressure deck washers.

Usually the home improvement guy and his drunken friends win, and the entire point of this exercise is to imagine horrible deaths for everyone in the fortress. :-)

Anonymous BGKB October 25, 2016 3:18 PM  

Actually, most of the money transferred is in the form of "child support." Presumptive father custody would solve that issue

There should be no child support without DNA testing.

Blogger Chris Mallory October 25, 2016 3:48 PM  

"plenty of nail guns,"

A kid's BB gun would be more likely to cause harm. A nail gun has no accuracy or penetration and would have to be rigged to defeat the safety that keeps it from being fired unless it is pressed against something.

Blogger Benjamin Kraft October 25, 2016 3:52 PM  

Not to mention the fact that you can get an exceedingly precise 3d printer for printing casts for metal parts for under 60k.

Blogger GFR October 25, 2016 3:53 PM  

@60
.
What was really interesting from that article was the characterization of Chicago and New York.

Blogger GFR October 25, 2016 3:56 PM  

@76
.
I once saw the safety on a nail gun jam. The fellow using the gun put seven nails into the wall and ceiling before he remembered to take his finger off the trigger.
.
They may not be accurate but they are fully automatic.

Blogger GFR October 25, 2016 4:01 PM  

@72
.
There is a book available at Amazon that shows you how to build a 9mm machine pistol using parts that are available at home depot.
.
https://www.amazon.com/Expedient-Homemade-Firearms-9mm-Submachine-ebook/dp/B0035RP1DQ/ref=pd_sim_351_1?ie=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0035RP1DQ&pd_rd_r=BTDV414GTAV58MG3C3FM&pd_rd_w=B0uCv&pd_rd_wg=mVy6x&psc=1&refRID=BTDV414GTAV58MG3C3FM

Blogger GFR October 25, 2016 4:05 PM  

@65
.
I have 5,000 rounds - is that enough?

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd October 25, 2016 4:30 PM  

GFR wrote:I have 5,000 rounds - is that enough?

That's not even enough to shoot out one barrel, unless we're talking about a 22-250.

Nobody has enough ammunition.

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr October 25, 2016 4:32 PM  

@71: The problem I've seen is that people keep trying to buy plinker-grade rimfire ammo for cheap. Mid-grade match ammo is readily available at good prices. RWS, Eley, Lapua, SK. I'll admit to ordering a case of Eley from Brownells last week (on sale), but the cheapest suppliers are Champion's Choice and ISS.

@72: I can remember a whole lot of Sten parts kits being imported 15 years ago. And we both know what the the receiver is made of.

@81: 5,000 rounds is a decent start.

Blogger Thucydides October 25, 2016 4:40 PM  

I love to put a sock in gun control freaks arguments by pointing out that in Switzerland, it is against the law *not* to have an automatic rifle at home. (All Swiss male citizens who are drafted and trained take their rifles homr with them on discharge. I understand they also are required to keep 200 rounds available at all times as well). Then quick follow up with "Switzerland has one of the lowest gun crime rates in the world".

Counterpoint is Chicago has some of the most draconian gun control laws on the planet, and is also has perhaps the highest rate of gun related crime in the US.

Further counterpoint for people to use: In Toronto, Canada, there was an epidemic of gun violence in the early 2000's. Then Mayor David Miller imposed more and more gun control measures, yet the rate of gun violence continued to escalate. How did it end? An international police operation in Canada, the US and Jamaica took down the "Shower Posse", and gun related crime in Toronto was dramatically reduced.

Funny, that.

Blogger GFR October 25, 2016 4:45 PM  

@83
.
I'm wondering what the circumstances would be where I would need more than 5,000 rounds.
.
If hillary outlaws guns nobody's going to be able to go to the range anyway.
.
If the zombie apocalypse comes I tend to doubt that I would shoot more than a hundred rounds before I was killed.
.
The reason that I have so much now, is that the California legislature wants to require a license for buying ammunition next year. And there will probably be a limit on how much you can buy.

Blogger Benjamin Kraft October 25, 2016 5:34 PM  

@58. You're not very historically knowledgeable. Ammunition can be, and has been historically used as a form of currency, and quite a good one too. You can use it for self defense, or hunting purposes (or other things, but let's not go there). It'd actually be a rather quality currency if the economy were to finally collapse suddenly.

The trick here is to figure out what type of ammunition will be most in demand. Obviously 9mm is one of the premiums for demand where self/home defense is concerned, as would be several varieties of shotgun shells. .40 and .45 might also be good backups for the defense side of things. As far as hunting, a 30-06 or .308 might be a pretty good one for big game, and .22 would be fine for small things like squirrels, rabbits, crows, etc.

You've also got to look at what kinds of weapons will be in use, what kind of stockpiles of ammunition people already have, and what types of ammunition will be the easiest/best to use in handicrafted weaponry.

Blogger Nate October 25, 2016 5:35 PM  

"@81: 5,000 rounds is a decent start. "

yep. a decent start. and that's assuming its all in 1 caliber. If its 5000 total spread out among several weapon systems... no. its not a good start. Its just a start.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 25, 2016 5:38 PM  

GFR wrote:I'm wondering what the circumstances would be where I would need more than 5,000 rounds.
When I take my sons out to the back field to shoot, we will typically go through 300-500 rounds, in various calibres. Doesn't take long to burn through a few thousand at that rate. Hell, if I got all the kids and their spouses and kids who shoot out at once, that's 12 people, we could probably use up 3000 rounds in one weekend.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 25, 2016 5:43 PM  

I used to work with a guy whose son was a QA inspector for an ammo mfr. He had 5-gallon buckets full of ammo in his garage. Some off-spec, but mostly excess samples.

We'd go to his house for sort-it-and-shoot-it parties. We'd spend 2-3 hours in the morning sorting by calibre, have a big lunch, and then head to the range to burn it up. Good times.

Blogger Tom Kratman October 25, 2016 6:46 PM  

Thucydides:

Unfortunately the Swiss have partially succumbed to modern insanity. The rifles they can keep after discharge, but they have to go back to the factory to be converted to SA only. The issue ammunition (it was less than 200 rds) is no longer stored at home. It was never everybody, nor even every male, as a substantial percentage, about a third, were found not fit for service and never inducted. The Army has also shrunk quite a bit.

Blogger Tom Kratman October 25, 2016 6:52 PM  

Thucydides:

Unfortunately the Swiss have partially succumbed to modern insanity. The rifles they can keep after discharge, but they have to go back to the factory to be converted to SA only. The issue ammunition (it was less than 200 rds) is no longer stored at home. It was never everybody, nor even every male, as a substantial percentage, about a third, were found not fit for service and never inducted. The Army has also shrunk quite a bit.

Anonymous BGKB October 25, 2016 6:59 PM  

GFR wrote: I'm wondering what the circumstances would be where I would need more than 5,000 rounds.

Even faggots shoot off over 100 rounds at the range.

OT: HA HA giving high speed internet to the inner city kids makes them stupider as they watch more porn. Who would have thought. http://nypost.com/2016/10/01/why-better-internet-access-will-only-keep-poor-people-poor/

It'd actually be a rather quality currency if the economy were to finally collapse suddenly.

Be very careful with who you sell to, as you don't want the bullets coming back at you fast. People planning on bartering booze ammo and tobacco when the SHTF will find themselves targets of drunk smokers with nothing to trade.

If the zombie apocalypse comes I tend to doubt that I would shoot more than a hundred rounds before I was killed.

Get a long range rifle with a scope. If it has a blue helmet on its head its an enemy. Zombies will follow lines of drift but will eat bad food/water before realizing the govt isn't bringing more GIBBSMEEDAT.

Blogger bosscauser October 25, 2016 7:45 PM  

In the great depression we just take everything from liberals and gold bugs.

Everything has a silver lining!

Let's go #Trump and hurry!

Blogger bosscauser October 25, 2016 7:53 PM  

We clean out the biggest 10 cities and we're down there with Switzerland!
It's a political problem....

Let's go #Trump and hurry!

Blogger bosscauser October 25, 2016 7:54 PM  

We clean out the biggest 10 cities and we're down there with Switzerland!
It's a political problem....

Let's go #Trump and hurry!

Blogger bosscauser October 25, 2016 7:54 PM  

In the great depression we just take everything from liberals and gold bugs.

Everything has a silver lining!

Let's go #Trump and hurry!

Anonymous Discard October 25, 2016 8:28 PM  

We young morons once put paper cones on nails so they'd fit snugly inside a piece of tubing, then fired them with a crack on the valve of a fresh bottle of argon. (2200 psi) We buried them in the wall fifty feet away.
We also fired apricots at the art department a few buildings away.
Imagination is the key.

Anonymous Friendly tip to double-posters October 25, 2016 9:29 PM  

@93 @94 @95 @96 Do NOT use your "Back" button to get back to the post after commenting.

Blogger GFR October 25, 2016 11:15 PM  

was the bottle of argon heavy?

Anonymous Mr. Rational October 26, 2016 1:42 AM  

Post Alley Crockpot Full of Crackpots wrote:I have a little "gedankengame" I would sometimes play with friends: Mediaeval Fortress With Defenders 1350 versus Home Improvement Weekend Warriors With Tool Shed 2015.
Yeah, just try stealing Flint's plot for "1632".  You'll never get it published.

Anonymous Discard October 26, 2016 2:32 AM  

99. GFR: Yes, even an empty bottle of argon is heavy. That's why guns use gunpowder instead of compressed gasses. Argon is only suitable for ambush scenarios.

Blogger bosscauser October 26, 2016 3:56 AM  

Watch the movie"a Country for Old Men. Small cow killer using compressed gas..

Let's go #Trump and hurry!

Blogger Tom Kratman October 26, 2016 7:03 AM  

Discard:

I'm actually learning a great deal from research for the novella I'm currently writing. Think: Shotguns from steel pipe, potassium chlorate from bleach, sulfur from roasting fools gold, and you don't need sulfur, necessarily; powdered sugar will do. Hell, matchheads will _do_. Oh, and poisons; poisons are easier than people may think.

In short, they can't disarm us.

Blogger JP October 26, 2016 7:06 AM  

Okay fine, you've got ten quintillion rounds of .22LR. Now tell me, slick, what exactly is it that you see yourself doing with it?

Me, I'm stocking up on 9mmP, 12 Gauge, .308 and 7.62x39

Blogger JP October 26, 2016 7:09 AM  

For the budget conscious: buy reloading components. Here where I live, reloading can be done for about 1/3 the price of buying the complete round.

Blogger Vanished friend October 26, 2016 9:09 AM  

Can you provide a bullet list of some of those practical matters?

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd October 26, 2016 9:42 AM  

JP wrote:Okay fine, you've got ten quintillion rounds of .22LR. Now tell me, slick, what exactly is it that you see yourself doing with it?

A little old Athabascan woman told me how she used to kill moose with a .22. You can kill anything with a .22, you just have to be patient.

Even poodle shooters can take big game. Eskimos kill beluga with .223.

Blogger JP October 26, 2016 12:08 PM  

I'm sure if you feed a moose enough .22 the lead would eventually give him terminal cancer.

Anonymous Leaded Patient Ratel October 26, 2016 1:52 PM  

JP wrote:I'm sure if you feed a moose enough

JP, in America they feed the game. The game in Africa don't have the patience to stand around for the lead poisoning to take.

Blogger bosscauser October 26, 2016 3:25 PM  

Carrying a cow killer around Drive the cops crazy. And most people think it was oxygen tank.
No ballistics. One thing there are smaller tanks as it doesn't take much force to do in a human skull...

But, clever is good in literature!

Let's go #Trump and hurry!

Blogger bosscauser October 26, 2016 3:28 PM  

Guns are convenience. 6 penny nail taped to stick shove in the eye instantaneous!
And no ballistics!

Let's go #Trump and hurry!

Anonymous Discard October 26, 2016 3:28 PM  

103. Tom Kratman: I understand that Henryk Sienkiewicz, the author of Quo Vadis, is a national hero in Poland for helping to preserve the language and culture during the century of German and Russian occupation. Perhaps in the future, you may be held in similar esteem.

That wasn't too thick, was it?

Blogger bosscauser October 26, 2016 3:31 PM  

Any ammo would be worth having under certain conditions in break down situation.
If you need gold for some reason, a woman, or food etc. Ammo is the ticket.
But, by yourself might as well toss it out the window!

Let's go #Trump and hurry!

Blogger bosscauser October 26, 2016 3:33 PM  

Reload ammo only way Hillary's thugs can't find you have it!

Let's go #Trump and hurry!

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd October 26, 2016 6:33 PM  

JP wrote:I'm sure if you feed a moose enough .22 the lead would eventually give him terminal cancer.

The old gal said you shoot him between the ribs, in the lung. Eventually he starts coughing up blood, then finally keels over. You just have to be patient, she said.

Blogger Tom Kratman October 26, 2016 7:27 PM  

Maybe a little.

I'll be content if nothing I've written about - well...nothing _else_...comes to pass.

Blogger JP October 27, 2016 3:52 AM  

Tom Kratman wrote:Maybe a little.

I'll be content if nothing I've written about - well...nothing _else_...comes to pass.


I just finished A State Of Disobedience and it was frighteningly prophetic.

Blogger Tom Kratman October 27, 2016 11:02 AM  

And, though Jim Baen played games with the cover blurbs, I never had any year by 2016 in mind for when "Rottermeyer" was running.

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