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Tuesday, October 25, 2016

Why people love and hate Donald Trump

A new video with Stefan Molyneux.

Labels: , ,

73 Comments:

Blogger Were-Puppy October 25, 2016 7:19 PM  

VD Yay!

Blogger Were-Puppy October 25, 2016 7:25 PM  

Ah well, i'm drunkposting, but it's so nice to see VP again and it feels like i've reconnected with civilization!

Anonymous #8601 October 25, 2016 7:25 PM  

It is disorienting to see the Supreme Dark Lord without his throne.

Anonymous Spud October 25, 2016 7:27 PM  

Back to the unity mines with you

Blogger Were-Puppy October 25, 2016 7:35 PM  

Seriously thought, within 10 minutes these guys explain the r/k thing that I never caught on to.

Blogger Aquila Aquilonis Fulminata October 25, 2016 7:48 PM  

Where is the Dark Lord Chair?

Blogger Brian H October 25, 2016 7:56 PM  

Trump better buy some gottam TV ads because he's getting hammered here in PA tween the gameshows.

Anonymous Bobby Farr October 25, 2016 7:56 PM  

Not sure how reliable today's Remington polls are but they show strengthening by Trump. He ahead, tied or within the margin of error in Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, Florida, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and very close in Virginia and Wisconsin.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/

Anonymous Bobby Farr October 25, 2016 7:57 PM  

"is" ahead

Blogger Bard October 25, 2016 7:59 PM  

Question:
Doesn't Hillary rigging polls in her favor hurt her as well? It is meant to demoralize Trump's supporters, but won't many dems stay home because "they have it in the bag?"

Blogger Brian H October 25, 2016 8:05 PM  

Thought that myself. Someone must have determined this keeps the dogged candidates supporters home more than the presumed victor? Who knows...

Anonymous Hezekiah Garrett October 25, 2016 8:13 PM  

I've gotten a dozen fundraising emails from Trump in the last 48hrs, including three for that "black card".

Now, if it was like a challenge coin AND came with instructions for the plan B insurrection he'd lead if robbed, I'd pony up.

As it is, I'm running my own GOTV effort on a shoestring in Sodom-on-the-Hooch. It ain't much, but it's a helluva lot for a guy who never involved himself in politics before.

So if you wanna see ads, DONATE!!!

Anonymous The Smoking Man #3424 October 25, 2016 8:30 PM  

Your kind words are appreciated, Supreme Dark Lord.

Anonymous brentg October 25, 2016 8:34 PM  

great vid. clear and concise r/K explanation. Thanks for putting this out.

Blogger Brian H October 25, 2016 8:58 PM  

I did!

GIMME A SHOW BIG DON!!

Blogger Brian H October 25, 2016 9:04 PM  

I did!

GIMME A SHOW BIG DON!!

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable October 25, 2016 9:05 PM  

Where is the Dark Lord Chair?

He's in Spain.

Blogger Marty October 25, 2016 9:05 PM  

Thanks Vox for the r/K explanation. I've seen it mentioned here before and didn't understand exactly how it fit, but now I do. I'm reminded of Reynolds' law "Subsidizing the markers of status doesn’t produce the character traits that result in that status; it undermines them.” Such that when we subsidize things for the r, we ultimately undermine the K that made it possible.

Blogger Brian H October 25, 2016 9:08 PM  

Thought that myself. Someone must have determined this keeps the dogged candidates supporters home more than the presumed victor? Who knows...

Blogger Lazarus October 25, 2016 9:10 PM  

@ 9:36 SM says : 2 forces that need to be tamed for civilization to flourish are Male Aggression and Female Vanity.

And I say, that may be, but it is also Male Vanity and Female Aggression that need to be eliminated.

Blogger haus frau October 25, 2016 9:10 PM  

On my usual 30 minute drive into oregon city, a suburb of portland, I saw lots of trump signs. Not a single hillary sign however. What was notable is that there were a handful of lawns with signs for democrat candidates but not one had a Hillary sign.I haven't been into portland lately. The suburbs do tend to be right leaning in clackamas county though.

Anonymous Atlas October 25, 2016 9:25 PM  

I think that as a proper show of remorse and reverence, for failing to provide the Supreme Dark Lord with a proper throne, that the Spaniards should provide one thousand fresh SJW skulls so that a second throne be assembled.

The SJWs must pay for this indignity.

Blogger Basil Makedon October 25, 2016 9:40 PM  

@10 Yes, to a certain extent its a double-edged sword, but they count on GOTV organized through various subsidiary organizations (certain churches, purple-people beaters, cash payments etc.). Because their supporters are city-dwellers it's easier for that kind of physical engineering. GOP voters are more suburban and rural are necessarily more diffuse and the GOP is much more reliant on self-starters (or not) and so more vulnerable to de-motivational tactics.

P.S. The supposedly internal memo from CTR is an excellent read and include tactics and methods that should be adapted and turned against them. Therein, CTR outlines specific memetic responses for different each different social media forum. One thing that reads true about it is the focus on emotional responses.

This is something that the Left understands far better than the Right.

It may actually be why the Left hates Scott Adams so much, as he's given the Right some tips and pointers that may be useful going forward.

Blogger Bard October 25, 2016 10:06 PM  

23. Thanks for the response. I will check into it.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 25, 2016 10:15 PM  

Were-Puppy wrote:Ah well, i'm drunkposting, but it's so nice to see VP again and it feels like i've reconnected with civilization!
I wasn't drunkposting. But this is a long video and I have a half-rack of good beer here.

Blogger updatesready October 25, 2016 10:20 PM  

yard signs - Saw lots and lots of Trump signs driving through northwest Ohio outside of Toledo last week. Zero Hillary signs... until I hit Toledo. Quite a few Hillary signs there. We know she owns most of the cities and in this case the signs do tell the tale.

Anonymous Elijah Rhodes October 25, 2016 10:29 PM  

Expanding on the concept of r/K selection for those who are new to it. What’s most interesting is that each of these two selection models is nearly opposite to the other in five key areas, which almost perfectly represent the 5 areas in which liberals and conservatives disagree:

Competitiveness/agressiveness
Group centrism
Rate of sexual maturity
Promiscuity
Parental Participation

The r Selection (reproductive focus) model is characterized by animals that are non-competitive, preferring to flee in the face of aggression or resource scarcity. They do not operate within packs, showing no group loyalty. They reach sexual maturity very early, are highly promiscuous, and provide only minimal parental care.

Conversely, K selected animals (competition focus) are highly competitive, more agreesive, and they form strong group aliances. They mature more slowly and reproduce late, usually with a single mate, and often share the parental duties. These animals strive for a high degree of fitness in each offspring, so they invest a lot of resources into their care.

The r Selected “reproductive" strategy explains the political left: They are competition-adverse, so they seek to “level” the playing field through government intervention, welfare, regulation, and social safety nets. They are non-aggressive, being less inclined to support capitol punishment and individual gun ownership and self defense. They reject group identity and ethnocentrism, favoring multiculturalism. They tend to reject traits that foster group loyalty, such as “honor”, “patriotism”, and “chivalry”. They are more promiscuous, less monogamous, more accepting of non-traditional and single parenting, and supportive of early sex education of children.

K selection explains the political right. Conservatives embrace competition and meritocracies. They are are self determined and believe in personal responsibility and self defense. They exhibit a high degree group loyalty, and value patriotism, honor, and valor. They believe in family values, respect tradition, prefer monogamy, delayed sexualization, and a greater investment in child rearing.

Societies are always founded on K selection--hard work, self determination, and competition, but tend to move toward r selection as affluence and the standard of living increases. This explains how the United States has rapidly moved from conservative to liberal in less than 100 years.

Blogger tim October 25, 2016 10:50 PM  

Does he really, really want to win?

Blogger anne October 25, 2016 10:53 PM  

@haus frau On my usual 30 minute drive into oregon city, a suburb of portland, I saw lots of trump signs. Not a single hillary sign however. What was notable is that there were a handful of lawns with signs for democrat candidates but not one had a Hillary sign.I haven't been into portland lately. The suburbs do tend to be right leaning in clackamas county though.

The Hillary signs are all up in my neighborhood in N Portland. Lots of old-school established democrats, with a smattering of Bernies.

Plus a Trump/poop emoji bumper sticker which is actually kinda funny.

Blogger tim October 25, 2016 10:57 PM  

Holy Toledo man!

Blogger Basil Makedon October 25, 2016 11:02 PM  

@27 I read the book by Anonymous Conservative, it's an enlightening read. I want to add a bit of perspective, if I might.

First, it is somewhat useful to keep in mind that the entirety of the human species is massively K selected from the most degraded orc living in a Monrovia slum all the way to the top. When we discuss r or K selection in people, it isn't quite as stark as rabbits v. wolves however illuminating the analogy. Maybe more like wolves and golden retrievers.

Second, the book is really worth a read as it seems to have a great deal of explanatory power. You can see how the Romans went from the men that shrugged off Cannae to grind Carthage into dust to the lapdogs of Caligula in a handful of generations. The transition from "Greatest Generation" to Boomers, to the Me Generation, to Gen X to Millennial Trigglypuffs -- you get the picture.

Third, the chapter about Fascism was particularly scary. He argues: "Here, we see this strategy perfectly executed. A movement of r-strategists begins by seeking to strip freedom from and motivate others to attack the successful. Once it became obvious a wider swath of Germans could be compelled to join them by limiting attacks to those they could portray as out-group (such as Jews and German leaders), they quickly adapted their strategy.... K-strategists need to understand where joining forces with r-strategists will lead." He goes onto discuss how anti-semitism was manipulated by Hitler and ends with a cautionary note that K-strategists need to be extremely careful: "To prevent their movement from being led astray, grassroots K-selected psychologies must force themselves to seek control of their movements... If [they] fail to do this, r-selected psychologies" will control the movement, which leads to inevitable disasters for the K-selected people. As SM and VD comment in the video the r's are always going on about "let's you and him fight."

Blogger tim October 25, 2016 11:03 PM  

Thanks for the primer,hadn't watched the video yet.

Blogger Rambam October 25, 2016 11:04 PM  

How many IQ points is a bald head worth?
Gonna shave Sam Malone locks.

Blogger tim October 25, 2016 11:07 PM  

West Coast craft breweries tend to be leftist incubators. Russian River Santa Rosa, my watering hole has a growing resistance movement fomenting.

Blogger Bard October 25, 2016 11:14 PM  

That was a very entertaining and educational interview.

Blogger Rambam October 25, 2016 11:19 PM  

Someone please tell Jason Bourne that Soros is running Treadstone now.

Blogger Teri October 25, 2016 11:26 PM  

Portland is the same way. You'll see more Bernie and Gary Johnson signs than for Hillary.

Blogger Rambam October 25, 2016 11:30 PM  

Very few political signs or bumper stickers this year. The reason: fear.

Blogger M. Bibliophile October 25, 2016 11:36 PM  

Out on the coast and the river, it's all Trump. Not a single Hillary sign and only a few bumper stickers. Weirdest election I've seen living in Oregon.

Blogger praetorian October 25, 2016 11:42 PM  

OT, via heartiste:

Trump finishing move

Best election ever.

Blogger praetorian October 25, 2016 11:43 PM  

Also most important election ever and also not voting for Trump is voting for Karl Marx and Franz Boas.

Blogger Deplorable October 25, 2016 11:45 PM  

Can someone please tell me what VFW stands for? I assume it's not Veterans of Foreign Wars.

Blogger Benjamin Kraft October 25, 2016 11:47 PM  

If I had any problem at all with the video, it would be where you state that the r-selected seek control because they are creatively bankrupt, then later state that art tends to be created by the r-selected.

It's a pretty big contradiction. If I were you, I'd be more inclined to point out that our arts have been convereged by the r-selected. Most of the more creative people aren't r-selected, but they have certainly been largely converged, compromised, corrupted and co-opted by them in our society.

Blogger Benjamin Kraft October 25, 2016 11:49 PM  

Also, r-selected co-option has been the major reason why people are starting to move away from many of the arts. The r-selected never cared about art in the first place (beyond bare hedonistic considerations). And the k-selective internally cringe, whether they know why or not, when they are exposed to r-selection-corrupted arts, and eventually stop going to experience them.

Blogger Solaire Of Astora October 26, 2016 12:39 AM  

Some r-selected people do create, such as a lot of actors and musicians. Where they tend to be less creative and more parasitic is in fields where actual mature thought is required.

Anonymous Wyrd October 26, 2016 12:40 AM  

If I had any problem at all with the video, it would be where you state that the r-selected seek control because they are creatively bankrupt, then later state that art tends to be created by the r-selected.

You're confusing who puts forth what views in the video. Vox and Stefan are two separate entities.

Anonymous Just another commenter October 26, 2016 12:45 AM  

@42 - VFM - Vile Faceless Minions. The Uruk-Hai of The Supreme Dark Lord, the slavering hordes sworn to mindless obedience to the slightest whiff of a whim upon the foul breath of magnificent leader of the Evil Legion of Evil (ELoE), pbuh.

In other words, it's fine a bunch of possibly alt-right people that are occasionally given a web-mission of some sort; think Internet flash-mob for the purposes of focusing someone's attention upon the error of their ways.

@43 and @44 - get together and discuss those paired ideas (hope that's not too hard :-). There is ART! (think Da Vince and Mozart) and "art" (think Maplethorp). There are /r artists who really create good stuff, and the /K folk like it, because it's deep, good, and pure. There are also many more really bad /r "artists" who cam imitate others, and create odd things, but they want to be associated with good things to they seek to control and gate-keeper and curate good art, to act like they know / can do more than they really can.

/K can be creative, but it's often more like finding a better diode manufacturing process, making an elegant bridge, or making the trains run more efficiently. Its a more practical, utilitarian creativity, as opposed to musical or picture-on-a-wall. But, because they know they can make more new things they have no need to control the creations of others and "claim them" through that control. I think that is what they were referring to, but please correct me if I'm off base.

Blogger DEPLORABLILITY October 26, 2016 1:01 AM  

@29 Anne
We spent 4+ decades in Multnomah county then my gag reflex kicked in every time I drove to work.So we packed up and moved to the central coast after seven years Im no longer ill when driving to work. Much happier now. #TRUMPSLIDE

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky October 26, 2016 1:09 AM  

What an excellent video. That was the best introduction to r/K analysis, I have tried to explain it to people and not found a persuasive way to do it. Now I have to share it out to them!

Stefan surprised me on the Glory of Grudges approach, Vox's take was far better and more matured on that.

The best part was the exchange around "soul-shattering" and the grim expectation that we are at the entry stage of the next Dark Age. There is a consolation in seeing people with clear eyes about that surveying the path forward.

Anonymous Galactic Starfleets of Deplorable Spartacus October 26, 2016 1:20 AM  

OT. https://twitter.com/PhilSandifer is going off on Infogalactic.

Phil Sandifer ‏@PhilSandifer Oct 24
Seriously, even for Vox Day, the Dumpster Fire that Walks Like a Man, Infogalactic is an amateur hour shitwreck.

My personal favorite. But that's Supreme Dark Dumpster Fire that Walks Like a Man to you, Phil.

Phil Sandifer ‏@PhilSandifer Oct 24
But if you want a detailed plot summary for an unreleased video game, well, someone definitely added that today.

At least he's paying attention while earnestly ignoring.

Blogger anne October 26, 2016 1:22 AM  

@48 DEPLORABLILITY

We spent 4+ decades in Multnomah county then my gag reflex kicked in every time I drove to work.So we packed up and moved to the central coast after seven years Im no longer ill when driving to work. Much happier now. #TRUMPSLIDE

I've only been here 7 years and am getting pretty fed up with it all. Been drifting further and further to the right, though, so maybe some good will come of it. Probably never would have started reading this blog had I not lived in Portland!

Anonymous Tipsy October 26, 2016 1:38 AM  

Here's a tip: Keep an eye on the Dylan Howard of the National Enquirer. I heard him speak today about his dossier on Hillary that he's put together using the material from Jeff Rovin (Clinton's fixer). Rovin is a smarmy, equivocating fence-sitter, trying to play both sides, back-stabbing while virtue signalling like a mad man.

Dylan Howard, though, seems very sharp, with a good command of all the various characters and their roles in the sordid theater that is the Clinton's life. It sounds like he's following up leads like crazy, and will soon be naming names. He shows none of Rovin's hesitation: He's got his bayonet ready and is going in for the kill.

The Clinton's, even if Hillary gets elected, will be toast.

Blogger Steve October 26, 2016 1:47 AM  

Vox... You Asked and I have given. A book called "Power vs. Force - Hidden Determinants of Human Behavior." It is the answer you are looking for.

Anonymous Cantostop October 26, 2016 2:10 AM  

Ditto what tim said, thanks

Blogger Baelzar October 26, 2016 2:28 AM  

Great discussion but please, VD, get a new microphone. They are so cheap these days. Yeti, Snowball (do they have to make mics in cold weather or something) or even the Samson Go (on sale currently!).

Anonymous Nathan October 26, 2016 2:50 AM  

@50,

It's so reassuring to hear a former obsessive Wikipedia editor shriek in outrage.

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable October 26, 2016 3:11 AM  

Hahaha! I love how we Oregonians have taken over. First this thread, then the world!

@anne: Probably never would have started reading this blog had I not lived in Portland!

Wait. Can you connect those dots for me?

Anonymous Jamie NZ October 26, 2016 3:12 AM  

“Some fascinating comments from the overtly liberal, Hillary-supporting Michael Moore….

****Source****
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-25/michael-moore-trumps-election-will-be-biggest-fuck-you-ever-recorded-human-history

Whether Trump means it or not, is kind of irrelevant because he’s saying the things to people who are hurting, and that’s why every beaten-down, nameless, forgotten working stiff who used to be part of what was called the middle class loves Trump. He is the human Molotov Cocktail that they’ve been waiting for; the human hand grenade that they can legally throw into the system that stole their lives from them. And on November 8, although they lost their jobs, although they’ve been foreclose on by the bank, next came the divorce and now the wife and kids are gone, the car’s been repoed, they haven’t had a real vacation in years, they’re stuck with the shitty Obamacare bronze plan where you can’t even get a fucking percocet, they’ve essentially lost everything they had except one thing – the one thing that doesn’t cost them a cent and is guaranteed to them by the American constitution: the right to vote

They might be penniless, they might be homeless, they might be fucked over and fucked up it doesn’t matter, because it’s equalized on that day.

On November 8, you Joe Blow, Steve Blow, Bob Blow, Billy Blow, all the Blows get to go and blow up the whole goddamn system because it’s your right. Trump’s election is going to be the biggest fuck you ever recorded in human history and it will feel good.”

__________________________________________


On November 8, 2016, you irredeemable deplorable Americans have the chance to say…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6ZE2ry9YwU

‘Yeah, you’re right,
We’re too wild,
We’re too out of control,
We’re too full of our own shit.’

Or you have a chance to say….

‘Hey, fuck you, you’re wrong!
Fuck you, we’re right!’
Because you have all made it to the dance,
And believe me, this is the dance!

Anonymous Eduardo October 26, 2016 3:47 AM  

Well it is good to see that Stefan has taken a liking to you, so when will he De-FOO you from your FOO? Let's face it, he is lying in wait to show you the "light" Vox! Always thought your Christianity was gonna be a bit of a barrier, but that might just be the Gamma in me speaking in my ear.

Oh and yeah, these two young men are full of testosterone. Because they are Bald... Yeah there is a direct relation!

Blogger szopen October 26, 2016 5:29 AM  

THis song should be dedicated to alt-righters all around the world (cover of Wysocki)

Oh, brother wolves, defend yourselves before you will all go extinct.

"The large scale Hunt"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-_Zk_aF1Bs

Blogger Lovekraft October 26, 2016 6:07 AM  

The simmering anger held by the dispossesed whites, forced to stand idly by while our society is overrun by other hostile tribes, our traditions and religions spat upon is all part of the Soros plan to divide and reap the spoils.

Infogalactic represents a reclaiming of our minds, the last refuge against tyrants. When marxists and globalists force you to think contrary to your core beliefs, that is when things are going to get interesting.

And, yes, we are very close. Which is why I say every chance I get that the left has overplayed their hand. Remember Peterson's warning at the Univ of Toronto a few days ago:

He has been notified by anonymous far righters that they have had enough and they are going to get real if things aren't re-balanced. Of course this warning was ignored by the african/muslim/lgbters.

Blogger Jew613 October 26, 2016 7:24 AM  

People like winners and being on the winning team. The rigged polls exist to demoralize those people who might like Trump but will only get motivated to vote if it seems they can be part of the victory.

Blogger Nick S October 26, 2016 7:36 AM  

Good interview, guys.

Blogger rws October 26, 2016 9:21 AM  

Your best interview yet, VD. Thanks.

Blogger Cail Corishev October 26, 2016 9:29 AM  

Doesn't Hillary rigging polls in her favor hurt her as well? It is meant to demoralize Trump's supporters, but won't many dems stay home because "they have it in the bag?"

In general, most people would rather vote for a winner (or be able to brag later about voting for the winner) than a loser. That's just human nature. So if you believe your vote can't matter, but you support the presumptive winner, you might go vote anyway just to be in on the victory dance.

That's how it normally works, though. In an election where there are a lot of new voters who feel like they've been left out of the process before, who are sick of several months of being alternately preached at and called names, who know the establishment is trying to discourage them and rig the process against them, it does seem like it could backfire.

Anonymous Athor Pel October 26, 2016 10:29 AM  

" 43. Blogger Benjamin Kraft October 25, 2016 11:47 PM
If I had any problem at all with the video, it would be where you state that the r-selected seek control because they are creatively bankrupt, then later state that art tends to be created by the r-selected.

It's a pretty big contradiction. If I were you, I'd be more inclined to point out that our arts have been convereged by the r-selected. Most of the more creative people aren't r-selected, but they have certainly been largely converged, compromised, corrupted and co-opted by them in our society."



Entryism is driven by the need to quickly give themselves legitimacy by placing themselves within legitimate organizations. They don't have legitimacy in themselves and do not know how to build legitimacy on their own. Which is a big part of being r-selected and only understanding the right here and the right now.

The entryist understands one end product of long term planning, respect from others given for real accomplishment. They want that respect for themselves and therefore 'understand' it but are unable or unwilling to connect it to the work that preceded it.

Bottom line: Entryism is theft of legitimacy. Just like a thief doesn't want to build his own wealth, an entryist doesn't want to build his own legitimacy/respect/authority.

Anonymous BGKB October 26, 2016 11:16 AM  

61 far righters that they have had enough and they are going to get real if things aren't re-balanced. Of course this warning was ignored by the african/muslim/lgbters.

We fled die verse city after the massive chimp outs on 10-12-2013 when the food stamp card went down for 8 hours.

would be where you state that the r-selected seek control because they are creatively bankrupt, then later state that art tends to be created by the r-selected.It's a pretty big

Shitty modern art.

Anonymous BGKB October 26, 2016 12:00 PM  

The selectively edited defending of OKeefe is the fact he left things out of the first video to provoke Clinton officials into likely lies proven in the later videos.

Anonymous CarpeOro October 26, 2016 12:21 PM  

Still can't comment using Brave browser:

Good interview. Can't emphasis too much that the struggle is never over. Trump wins or loses, the fight goes on. Wins, we have a long way to go still. Loses, hell, most of us have been in this for awhile and that is most of what we have seen. We fight anyways because we are not given a spirit of fear, we have a vision for the future and the desire to be a blessing to our posterity even if we can only show the path they should tread.

Blogger BassmanCO October 26, 2016 3:24 PM  

CarpeOro, go into Settings | Shields and allow cookies. That was all it took for me to be able to comment in Brave.

Anonymous 10/26 October 26, 2016 5:59 PM  

Vox using valley girl uptalk is distracting. I liked the r/k discussion.

Blogger Demonic Professor El October 27, 2016 10:07 AM  

I think we discovered that Stefan also, very secretly, wants to be a warlord.

You could hear it in the voice, the slight glimmer in his eye.

Molyneux's part Irish, right? We could donate a coat-of-arms and some woad plant to the fella.

Besides, who DOESN'T want to be a warlord? I can think of a few unambiguous parties to raid and loot when it all starts.

Also: sandbags are still pretty cheap right now. You can get small ones that fit into things like door panels in your car, among other nooks and crannies. Just sayin' ;)

Blogger anne October 28, 2016 1:14 AM  

@57 SciVo de Plorable wrote:@anne: Probably never would have started reading this blog had I not lived in Portland!

Wait. Can you connect those dots for me?


After moving from the East side to the West side, I desperately needed a voice of reason to counter the utter insanity I found myself swimming in. Lo and behold, I discovered Vox Popoli and never looked back. I may have a bit of a contrary streak. :-)

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