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Monday, November 28, 2016

10 buoni motivi

Per votare NO dicembre 4



Ten good reasons to vote NO. If you stay home, you help Renzi! Contrary to what Renzi wants you to believe, his "reform" will not resolve our problems, but create new ones.

There are three reasons the Italian referendum is so important. The first is that if the constitutional reforms pass, it will be much easier for the eurocrats to force their policies through the more-centralized Italian government. The second is that if it fails, the eurocrat Renzi has said he will resign as Prime Minister since his minority government won't be able to govern. The third is that this is a virtual referendum on the euro and the EU, and a strong NO vote will serve as a precursor to Italy exiting both the currency and the globalist entity.

In fact, some EU observers are already predicting that if Italy votes no, and the NO vote is leading strongly in the polls, the EU will collapse.

#IOVOTONO

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52 Comments:

Anonymous Garrulus November 28, 2016 8:48 AM  

Interesting weekend;
Austrian presidential election, 2016 4 December 2016 (new second round)

Blogger dc.sunsets November 28, 2016 8:50 AM  

Vox, to what extent (if any) does the "North vs South" split in Italy play a role in this?

Blogger VD November 28, 2016 8:54 AM  

Not much. The Lega Nord is stronger in the North, obviously. Movimento Cinque Stelle is stronger in the South. But they both hate the euro, and the Lega wants out of both the EU, and possibly Italy as well.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 28, 2016 8:56 AM  

Will the EUcrats double down on everything? The migrant invasion playing a part? ( I won't use the word "refugee")

Anonymous #8601 November 28, 2016 8:56 AM  

Making predictions using the Alt-Right framework has obviously been very effective, from Brexit to Trump. Italy will be no different.

Endgame is the scrapping of the Euro.

Blogger Johnny November 28, 2016 9:05 AM  

The apparent problem with the EURO is that the different populations are not mobile enough to adjust for the different inflation rates. As German goods displace Italian production, the Italians aren't interested in moving to Germany and end up being unemployed while Germany prospers in part owing to the exports to Italy.

Add to that this crazy immigration policy, the apparent unwillingness of the EU management to adjust, and failure of the whole enterprise would seem unavoidable.

Blogger dc.sunsets November 28, 2016 9:14 AM  

The breakup of the EU is inevitable, just as is a bear market to follow any bull market.

The only questions we're answering with signals like Italy's referendum pertain to the ebb and flow of the trend change.

The fact that US stocks held up into the election confounded the hell out of my election expectations [and showed just how poorly arrayed were the forces of "remain" in the USA, typified by offering a dem candidate who not only doubled down on prior-trend policy but even shared family lineage (if only via marriage) with the top-line figureheads.]

Is the incline now so tipped to trend change that every question on the old status comes back "REJECTED?"

Blogger dc.sunsets November 28, 2016 9:22 AM  

Welcoming the invading hordes was an expression of Peak Openness and Peak Trust, seen in the USA in similar fashion only at levels Americans can only marvel (can we imagine Americans being told by their central government that those who own second homes and vacation properties were to be legally required to board invading Mestizos and Somalis for free? The politician who stood up and said that would be laughed off the political stage forever.)

Merkel's policies, mirrored throughout the EU (and UN) were the blow-off top, a mania-in-a-mania if ever one existed.

If we want to look at the fate of political questions (e.g., the EU's approval) going forward, we might examine a chart of gold post-1980. Its decline was vertical, and relentless for years.

Blogger Deplorable Gaiseric November 28, 2016 9:24 AM  

VD wrote:Not much. The Lega Nord is stronger in the North, obviously. Movimento Cinque Stelle is stronger in the South. But they both hate the euro, and the Lega wants out of both the EU, and possibly Italy as well.
That's interesting. I wonder how many other "nations" are subject to those kinds of fault lines. I think the Italian one goes back to before the Risorgimiento, but I didn't realize that those fault lines still had any currency. I wonder how much additional balkanization is possible there. The story seems to be the same all over; Catalunya vs. most of the rest of Spain is an obvious one.

At least with Italy, the geography seems to have been preserved. I suspect that in the US, interstate movement has rather hopelessly mixed up the various national fault lines, which is a much uglier situation to resolve.

Blogger seeingsights November 28, 2016 9:24 AM  

I'm developing a rule for political action: act so as to enhance the nation state. Following this rule would mean voting no in the Italian referendum. Vox Day gave the pro-nation state reasons in his post. It's an interesting political rule. By following it one can decide fairly quickly on what political actions to support or oppose.

Blogger Johnny November 28, 2016 9:31 AM  

>> I think the Italian one goes back to before the Risorgimiento...

If I correctly understand history there was no Italy before Risorgimiento.

Germany had a strong north/south fault line, hard nosed Prussians in the north and the more casual Bohemians to the south. If they had divided the country north-south instead of east-west following WWII the division might well have held.

Blogger synp November 28, 2016 9:38 AM  

Johnny wrote:>> I think the Italian one goes back to before the Risorgimiento...

If I correctly understand history there was no Italy before Risorgimiento.

Germany had a strong north/south fault line, hard nosed Prussians in the north and the more casual Bohemians to the south..


I think you meant Bavarians. Bohemians are the the Czech Republic.

Blogger synp November 28, 2016 9:45 AM  

Johnny wrote:The apparent problem with the EURO is that the different populations are not mobile enough to adjust for the different inflation rates. As German goods displace Italian production, the Italians aren't interested in moving to Germany and end up being unemployed while Germany prospers in part owing to the exports to Italy.

Can't much the same be said of US states? Rich states have twice the median income of poor states, and that's not even counting Puerto Rico, and the cities are much, much richer than the rural areas and small towns.

Some people migrate to New York and Los Angeles, or even Seattle and Dallas. But for the most part the Dollar is as good for people in Idaho as the Euro is for Greeks.

Blogger Lazarus November 28, 2016 9:45 AM  

Reason # 11:

Rumors about "up to 8 Italian banks failing" if NO wins.
Same fear mongering as with Brexit.

AND if it is in fact true, still a good thing.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 28, 2016 9:46 AM  

If this presages the collapse of the EU, then it will precipitate the flight of financial elites to China. Trump needs to be very careful because they'll try to do the Rape of Russia thing on their way out the door.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 28, 2016 9:48 AM  

They are fairly predictable people when you understand the mindset and have a couple of historical examples to work with. Not highly creative or intelligent, just enough to be dangerous.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 28, 2016 9:56 AM  

The way to stop the Rape of America is to keep in mind what (((they))) need to succeed: secrecy, public complacency, a big distraction (look over there!), and the mindless cooperation of the worker drones who carry out the plan. All of these can be countered with populist demagoguery, simply telling people "if you're a dockworker, don't let this particular freighter get loaded because America", and there's precedent for success in the struggle between Andrew Jackson and Nicholas Biddle.

seeingsights wrote:I'm developing a rule for political action: act so as to enhance the nation state. Following this rule would mean voting no in the Italian referendum. Vox Day gave the pro-nation state reasons in his post. It's an interesting political rule. By following it one can decide fairly quickly on what political actions to support or oppose.

Yes.

Anonymous Phronesis November 28, 2016 9:56 AM  

I have read several pundits hint at the collapse of the EU over this. Why is this a threat if Italy leaves, as opposed to when Brexit happened? Are people predicting that Italy will inspire others to leave, or that the EU cannot function without Italy, or something else? In my general ignorance of EU politics, I wonder why the EU won't just double down and attempt an undemocratic veto on Itexit, like they are attempting in the UK.

Blogger Johnny November 28, 2016 10:05 AM  

>>I think you meant Bavarians. Bohemians are the the Czech Republic.

Where I grow up all southern German types were routinely called Bohemians, and now after all these years I am getting straightened out. Plus the word Bohemian was commonly used as a reference to a relaxed or rustic living style.

Also there was still some left over ethnic tension between the different European groups. Poles got the worst of it, allegedly stupid. For Germans nobody called anybody a Nazi, but a joke against the Germans (Bo-hunks) was to ask, "How can you tell the groom at a Bohemian wedding?" The answer was that he would be the one wearing a clean t shirt

Blogger Johnny November 28, 2016 10:10 AM  

Speaking of economic refugees, in the twentieth century, most of northern Wisconsin moved to the southern half. Plus of course there is the general movement of rural people into city or suburban areas everywhere.

Apparently this isn't happening in Europe, at least not on a nation state level. So, hey, let's move a bunch of Arabs in just to stir the pot. Beyond stupid really, thoughtless crazy.

Blogger tz November 28, 2016 10:16 AM  

E-Yugoslavia

Blogger Theproductofafineeduction November 28, 2016 10:16 AM  

NO vote is leading strongly in the polls, the EU will collapse.

By the grace of God I hope so.

Blogger Gordon November 28, 2016 10:21 AM  

Political versus geographical divides do cause problems. For decades some folks thought North and South Dakota should have been divided into East and West; the east for farming, the west for ranching. Now that oil is involved, it could get more interesting. Slope County in the southwest of North Dakota is about the same size as Rhode Island, but has only 720 people.

And it's November 28 in Minneapolis, and I'm listening to a thunderstorm. This has been an interesting month.

Anonymous BGKB November 28, 2016 10:21 AM  

The fact that US stocks held up into the election confounded the hell out of my election expectations

If they are planning on crashing it after the inauguration they might just be pumping it up for more profit.

and that's not even counting Puerto Rico, and the cities are much, much richer than the rural areas and small towns.

Low 6 figures in NYC without rent control is like min wage in Whitopia.

Trump needs to be very careful because they'll try to do the Rape of Russia thing on their way out the door.

Have you missed what they have done since 1913?

Why is this a threat if Italy leaves, as opposed to when Brexit happened?

The Nazis and Russians have moved out from under UK (((beds))) and moved to Italian (((beds)))

Anonymous Garrulus November 28, 2016 10:46 AM  

#MEGA #AltRight good podcast about the european political situation #France #Germany #Austria #Norway
https://radio.therightstuff.biz/2016/11/28/4103/

Would be nice if someone could join the panel for other european countries, they said their next one will be DEC 5, the day after Austria (And Italy) votes.

Anonymous Shut up rabbit November 28, 2016 10:57 AM  

Deplorable Gaiseric wrote:I wonder how many other "nations" are subject to those kinds of fault lines.

Well, modern France represents the logistical limits of Louis XIV conquering army. Lots of independent regions were ruthlessly crushed by the Parisians under Richelieu on behalf of his king (see siege of La Rochelle or the Vendée revolt for some of the worst examples).

The Parisian langue d'oïl dialect was imposed on the conquered people as the "French" language to undermine regional identities. (Ironically, It now serves to isolate the whole country from the rest of the world and defines a "French" identity which the political elite can easily manipulate through total control of the media). Napoleon then formalized it all in law to feed his armies so efficiently.

France is so ridiculously bureaucratic and so totally centralized that anyone wanting a job with any kind of regional power must go to Paris to earn it. Prefects, the most powerful regional governors, cannot rule in their home region to prevent them developing any kind of local power base.

Corsica and The Basque country have violent separatist movements but most regions express their regional identity through food and cheese and hating the people from the neighboring regions.
List of active separatist movements in France

At the moment they are so dependent on Paris that resistance seems futile but if someone took out Paris tomorrow I'm sure the people would reorganize on a regional basis rather than submitting again to such a centralized state.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 28, 2016 11:00 AM  

BGKB wrote:Trump needs to be very careful because they'll try to do the Rape of Russia thing on their way out the door.

Have you missed what they have done since 1913?


Increase your cynicism level to over 9000, then imagine a fire sale on F-22s to an amenable Chinese bureaucrat. I can even see the logistics in my mind's eye.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 28, 2016 11:02 AM  

BGKB wrote:Why is this a threat if Italy leaves, as opposed to when Brexit happened?

The Nazis and Russians have moved out from under UK (((beds))) and moved to Italian (((beds)))


OOSH. Where do you get your insight into this stuff?

Blogger dc.sunsets November 28, 2016 11:03 AM  

@9 Jayman's blog discusses the various tribes settled currently in North America. It's an interesting take on how mixed together we are (or aren't.) https://jaymans.wordpress.com/american-nations-series/

@10 The confounding issue surrounding your citing the Nation-State as the pole about which to rally is the commentary from Lind & Creveld that the era of the Nation-State is over (which is a central tenet of 4GW theory.)

The nation is not the Nation-State. That's perhaps one of the central issues (and sources of confusion) today. Across the world there are far more nations than there are Nation-States.

Anonymous BGKB November 28, 2016 11:06 AM  

OOSH. Where do you get your insight into this stuff?

I check out listings at AirB_under_B.

Anonymous BGKB November 28, 2016 11:08 AM  

OOSH. Where do you get your insight into this stuff? I check out listings at AirB_under_B.

You can stay under a NY Times reporters bed for only $20 a night.

Blogger dc.sunsets November 28, 2016 11:08 AM  

@26 At the moment they are so dependent on Paris that resistance seems futile but if someone took out Paris tomorrow I'm sure the people would reorganize on a regional basis rather than submitting again to such a centralized state.

Substitute every "capital city" in the world for "Paris" and you restate the centripetal forces about to tear Nation-States to shreds.

The only thing holding the periphery to the center is debt-fueled spending, which is a form of self-delusion born of pathological trust, nothing more.

Take away the optimism that sustains belief in the "No Limit Charge Card" wielded by central state politicians and almost EVERYTHING becomes the periphery, and almost EVERYTHING will suddenly reorient toward the local.

Phase change indeed.

Blogger The Kurgan November 28, 2016 11:09 AM  

I hope it's a NO, but my countrymen are well known with good reason as master clusterfuckers. Let's pray they get this one right.

Anonymous roadrage November 28, 2016 11:19 AM  

@ dc sunsets
Of course the break up of the EU is inevitable. As busy as men are at building towers of Babel, GOD is just as busy kicking them over. Humanistic man may be of one shoulder, he will never be of one lip.

Anonymous Shut up rabbit November 28, 2016 11:19 AM  

Shut up rabbit wrote:List of active separatist movements in France

Looking at the list I just posted I think its hilarious that the only parts of France with no independence movement are the various Pacific, Caribbean, African, S american "colonies" that are absurdly claimed as part of France. It must be the phenomenal subsidies they receive so that the mainland civil servants feel at home when they go there to "work" for a couple of years: sacré français

Anonymous Philalethes November 28, 2016 11:34 AM  

I remember when the ideas that eventually became the European Union were first proposed in the 1950s. They sounded good: to ease and facilitate communication and exchange between the nations of Europe, so as the avoid the conflicts that had so devastated the continent in the previous half-century.

In the last 60 years it's gradually become clear that the real intentions of the promoters of these ideas were not at all what the European peoples were led to believe. Rather than a peaceful, prosperous European community, the eventual aim was and is the suppression and destruction of Western Civilization, and the reduction of its home, Europe and the Anglosphere, to third-world provinces essentially identical to the others in the worldwide Plantation envisioned by the Ruling Elite.

And in this Plantation the only White people remaining would be their small group (1% or more likely .1%, many or most of whom are actually (((white)))), and the rest of the world's population would be a homogeneous mass of livestock people whose only wealth would be their skin's melatonin content, and who would be managed, used and abused at will by the Elite for their own purposes and profit.

More and more I am forced to wonder about the real origins of the great conflagrations that overwhelmed most of the world – and especially the nations of the West – during the first half of the twentieth century. Were they truly unavoidable? Or were they set-ups, propelled by hoaxes and false-flag events, promoted by some who stood to profit from them? Who, after all, did profit from World Wars I & II? Who got what they wanted in consequence of all that destruction? Cui bono?

For one consequence was certainly the spiritual exhaustion of Europe, whose men (those who survived) are so tired of fighting that they now seem unable to resist the wholesale invasion of their homes by vast hordes of very non-Europeans whose entire character and psychology is totally inimical to the values of European and Western Civilization.

Anonymous Philalethes November 28, 2016 11:35 AM  

Much the same is true, of course, of America, though the process has been somewhat different. This country has never suffered the true horrors of war, except for the 11 Southern States in the 1860s; but the long series of pointless, unjustified foreign wars America has been tricked, cajoled and dragged into have also been very destructive to the spirit.

Human nature being as it is, it's easy for those knowledgeable and skilled to invoke Mob consciousness, and get the people en masse to go for wars that have no real reason behind them but slogans like "Remember the Maine!" (which started an unjust war one of whose eventual results was the recently deceased Fidel Castro). Nevertheless, war is extremely destructive to the spirit of even the winners, when they know in their hearts that they were not fighting and killing for a truly just cause.

Again, who has benefitted from America's wars? Truly? Certainly not my father, for though he did return alive, he was so damaged in spirit that he had no chance of creating a happy postwar life for himself (and his family). Of course, we know now that Standard Oil, for one, profited handsomely from selling to both sides in that war. And that's only for starters.

Well, some at least of the people of the Western nations seem finally to be waking up and realizing that they don't want what is planned for them. It's a start, anyway, and a glimmer of hope. History is a messy process, and we can only hope that the present crisis will not result only in a repetition of the past's mistakes: more mob rule and militarism as in the 1930s – which was actually part of the Plan to bring the already exhausted civilized world back into yet more war and continue advancing the Elite's aims. Will the people get smart enough to avoid that? To understand that you can have pride in your own nation, without necessarily being obliged to attack and conquer others? Time will tell. My hopes are not great, but still, it is possible to try something different.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 28, 2016 11:47 AM  

dc.sunsets wrote:The nation is not the Nation-State. That's perhaps one of the central issues (and sources of confusion) today. Across the world there are far more nations than there are Nation-States.


This indicates to me that we could measure movement between globalism and localism by creating an index of

Genetic diversity
------------------
# of nation states

It'd be up for debate how you define either one but once you make a choice it's pretty trivial to determine whether the world is becoming more or less NWO over time.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 28, 2016 11:51 AM  

BGKB wrote:OOSH. Where do you get your insight into this stuff?

I check out listings at AirB_under_B.


Figures.

Blogger Deplorable Gaiseric November 28, 2016 12:38 PM  

@26: Yeah, but France has rather ruthlessly demolished many of its regional identities over the years. The langue d'oc groups have not maintained a distinct identity like their southern linguistic cousins, the Catalonians have. Other than the Basques, maybe the Corsicans, and maybe the Niçardos, does anyone else in France have a competing national identity they can claim other than "French?"

Anonymous Shut up rabbit November 28, 2016 12:57 PM  

Deplorable Gaiseric wrote:does anyone else in France have a competing national identity they can claim other than "French?"

Bretons certainly (they have kept their language much as the Welsh did in face of the English repression), probably Alsatians too who historically had another identity - Savoyards, maybe, but they'd fall in with Italians which isn't necessarily any better. The Provencals and Occitans have mostly been replaced with arabs as have the Liloises in the north.

Blogger CarpeOro November 28, 2016 1:07 PM  

Regarding regional variations within nations/nation states or even empires, the most important issue has always been communications. The time it takes to get a message to outlying areas and the amount of interaction of the general populace on a daily level. If you don't talk much to the people in the village over the mountain or interact, they are "foreigners". That is how most of history went. With improving transportation and communications the scope of interaction has increased, yet there were centuries in which this was not the case even in a relatively new country like the USA. With the advent of electronic communications becoming prevalent and widely available there is generally a trend toward homogenizing languages. This is driven by the effort to extend the reach of communications (more listeners, more viewers, more bang for advertising buck). In the USA national media personalities (game hosts, talk show hosts, etc.) often came from the Midwest. Why? Because the accent is the least difficult for other regions of the country to deal with. Picture a New Englander and a Southron trying to talk. These days not so difficult because of the influence of Midwesterner tv and radio personalities, but I recall when I was younger there would be occasions where it would be rather difficult at times. As mentioned above regarding France, the same can be found in Germany, Italy, and England. The difference in Europe is that the regional variations have been around a lot longer, not to mention the greater differences between some outlying areas and the capitals (Breton, Basque, Catalan, Welsh, Walloon, Flemish, for example). I believe the influx of even more alien people ("refugees") is causing people to emphasis the ties with those living closer to them - their home region as opposed to what was formerly their nation. To the extent the central government fails to address the concerns I'd expect the increasing of the regional ties. Current governing elites have done their utmost to degrade the broader national ties in favor of extra-national ties. People who feel threatened are falling back to the closer regional ties that had been deemphasised in an effort to encourage a national zeitgeist because that is what the ruling class has left them with.

Blogger The Chortling November 28, 2016 1:08 PM  

Any truth to this?

Italy's Minister Of Interior: Surrender Your Homes To Migrants Or Face Jail

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=55891

Blogger CarpeOro November 28, 2016 1:13 PM  

@41
Don't forget Corsica. Infogalactic even has an error trying to redirect from the French name for it (Corse).

Blogger Snidely Whiplash November 28, 2016 1:27 PM  

Deplorable Gaiseric wrote:does anyone else in France have a competing national identity they can claim other than "French?"
Normans and Bretons.

Anonymous Shut up rabbit November 28, 2016 1:54 PM  

CarpeOro wrote:Don't forget Corsica. Infogalactic even has an error trying to redirect from the French name for it (Corse).

Corsicans and the Basques were mentioned in the first post and accepted as valid examples of strong regional identities by Deplorable Gaiseric. My postulation is that France is even more regionalised than that and is held together only by a strong centralized, bureaucracy and an isolationist language...

Blogger Deplorable Gaiseric November 28, 2016 2:04 PM  

And I had momentarily forgotten the Bretons.

Anonymous Avalanche November 28, 2016 6:16 PM  

@36 "More and more I am forced to wonder about the real origins of the great conflagrations that overwhelmed most of the world – and especially the nations of the West – during the first half of the twentieth century. Were they truly unavoidable? Or were they set-ups, propelled by hoaxes and false-flag events, promoted by some who stood to profit from them? Who, after all, did profit from World Wars I & II? Who got what they wanted in consequence of all that destruction? Cui bono?"

Ooooh be very VERY careful with your illicit thinking! Pretty soon you might even begin to do some RESEARCH!! And suddenly, you'll find yourself NOT running squealing for cover when someone in an NPI meeting throws a salute!!

(Like way too many people I can point a jaundiced finger at!)

Cui bono indeed!

Anonymous Avalanche November 28, 2016 6:22 PM  

@43 "Any truth to this?
Italy's Minister Of Interior: Surrender Your Homes To Migrants Or Face Jail"

Could explain why idiot-liberal George Clooney is trying to sell his Lake Como mansion? His "second" home -- you know the kind of home the govt is apparently planning to take over for their imported zoo animals?!

They have NOT (that I have seen) stated how they are going to define "under-utilized": if you have a guest bedroom, you get a guest?!

Anonymous Marvin Boggs November 28, 2016 6:28 PM  

@18: There will always be a multitude of factors in something like this. People like to point at one thing, because it's neat and tidy and simple. Life is rarely neat and tidy and simple, especially when millions of viewpoints are involved.

That said, I tend to look at it like a game of Jenga. As you remove more and more pieces, the whole thing becomes more and more unstable. Eventually, it's so unstable as to be incapable of standing and you get this tremendous collapse.

I liken this to the economic crisis in Tom Clancy's Debt of Honour. Oversimplified, but descriptive.

Anonymous Eric the Red November 29, 2016 3:21 AM  

So is 'è troppo è troppo' the equivalent of 'basta ya' ?

Blogger Daniel November 29, 2016 4:07 AM  

That is a deep rabbit hole.

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