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Tuesday, November 22, 2016

Controlled opposition or media indiscipline?

Like others in and around the Alt-Right, I've been approached by numerous media organizations since the election. I was also invited to speak at the recent NPI conference. I declined the opportunity, not because I have any problem with Richard Spencer or anything the Alt-White is pursuing, but because going to conferences and talking to lots of people is really not my thing. I don't even go to three-quarters of the professional conferences that I really should attend, and I've been speaking at game industry conferences since 1995.

But I have to admit, it was somewhat fortuitous that I didn't go given the manufactured media coverage of a minor incident towards the end, when apparently some idiots in the crowd began throwing Roman salutes on camera, and Richard decided it would be a great idea to throw the media some red meat by shouting "Hail Victory and Hail Trump." Mike Cernovich put out a widely watched Periscope calling this "utter stupidity" and "controlled opposition", and thereby sparked a bit of outrage among Richard's fans.

As a number of people have asked my opinion of this, here it is:

  • No, I don't think Richard is a federal agent or an actual controlled opposition figure. I think Mike would have been more accurate to say "controllable opposition" or "dancing monkey". But Mike made it very clear exactly what he meant in his Periscope. Don't get pedantically hung up on a term. If nothing else, Richard's hair is too fabulous for him to be a federal agent.
  • There was nothing actually wrong with what Richard said. But we're dealing with rhetoric here, not dialectic.
  • It wasn't a big deal. But it was a foolish thing to do. The media is absolutely slavering to be able to have REAL PROOF that the Alt-Right are no-good, very-evil Nazis so that they can use it as a weapon against President-elect Trump, giving them ANYTHING is tactically retarded.
  • It's not about Richard. It's about Donald Trump. If Richard is genuinely supportive of Trump, then pulling that sort of stunt was the very last thing he should have done. Making yourself the news story at the expense of the individual you are supposedly supporting and celebrating smacks of being self-serving. As Mike said, dress up like a Nazi, speak bad German and wear a swastika armband if you want, just leave Trump out of it.
  • Richard has failed to learn the lesson of #GamerGate and the principles of 4GW. He wants to be the media-anointed leader of the Alt-Right because he believes, wrongly, that this will help him achieve his objectives. It won't. As Mike and I have both noted, the media elevates fringe figures to "leadership" specifically in order to attack the movement through them. That's why they keep trying to call Milo, and Mike, and even occasionally me "an Alt-Right leader" even though we all specifically deny it. Milo and Mike have always denied being Alt-Right, and yet the media keeps trying to claim they are its leaders. Ask yourself, "why is the media doing that when they know it isn't true?"
  • You don't play the media, the media plays you. Yes, Trump can play them. Yes, Milo can play them. But I'm not either of those unique talents and neither are you. I learned my lesson the hard way, when a woman from Wired read SJWAL and spent three hours talking about #GamerGate with me just in order to get what she thought was a single kill-quote into her article that was nominally about the Hugo Awards. She was wrong, because she was an American who didn't realize I was referring to a very real problem that is covered only in the European press, but I learned that they will go very far out of their way in order to get that single soundbite, that single optic, that they can then use as a caricature of you for the next decade in order to discredit and disqualify you. That is why I don't do TV, I don't go on radio shows or podcasts that are oppositional, and I require that all interviews with me are written.
  • The media is not the way to "get out your message". That's the bait they've used to lure in every sucker for 50 years. I can't count the number of times a reporter has said he "just wants to give me the opportunity to tell my side of the story". It's a trap. The way to get out your message is to patiently build your own platform, because he whom the media builds up is he whom the media can take down at will.
  • I am not opposed to Richard or jealous of Richard, nor do I want the attention he is receiving. I rather like him, I simply don't think he understands that the media intends for him to become a David Duke figure, a weapon available for deployment against any politician or program that he nominally supports.
  • The media always has a narrative it is attempting to sell. Don't help them sell it!
If the Alt-Right is going to continue to be successful, those to whom the media pays attention are going to have to develop the same media discipline that #GamerGate and the Trump inner circle have exhibited. Don't take the bait.

Labels: ,

254 Comments:

1 – 200 of 254 Newer› Newest»
Blogger Positive Dennis November 22, 2016 4:08 AM  

As you can imagine it is already appearing in my Facebook feed

Blogger kudzu bob November 22, 2016 4:14 AM  

Alcohol may have been involved.

Anonymous Icicle November 22, 2016 4:29 AM  

People forget (or they are stupid, or they forget because they are stupid) that Trump has been in the spotlight for DECADES. He knows what he is doing.

Blogger praetorian November 22, 2016 4:33 AM  

Ladies and gentlemen, I'll be brief. The issue here is not whether we had a few drinks, threw a few roman salutes, or took a few liberties with our Asian female party guest - we did.

But you can't hold the whole alt right responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole political system? And if the whole political system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our media institutions in general? I put it to you, Shitlibs - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society?

Well, you can do whatever you want to Richard, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America.

Gentlemen!

Anonymous Federal Plant #17 November 22, 2016 4:34 AM  

Don't get pedantically hung up on a term. If nothing else, Richard's hair is too fabulous for him to be a federal agent.

Hey fuck you buddy, some of us have great hair. I mean some of them have great hair.

Anonymous Sciurus November 22, 2016 4:34 AM  

Yep, the people pointing out that Trump was able to play this game with the media are forgetting that Richard Spencer is no Donald Trump. And it even burned Trump from time to time. These people will turn Spencer into an albatross on the neck of the alt-right if he gives them the opportunity.

Anonymous Icicle November 22, 2016 4:45 AM  

I rather like him, I simply don't think he understands that the media intends for him to become a David Duke figure, a weapon available for deployment against any politician or program that he nominally supports.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmYIo7bcUw

Springtime for Hitler and Germany. Deutschland is happy and gay. We're marching to a faster pace.

Look out, here comes the master race.

...Winter for Poland and France.

Anonymous dagwood November 22, 2016 4:56 AM  

This is going to be ancient history to those who were involved in it, but I'm just curious, as I'm trying to get a better sense of the shape of all these things. I'm not a gamer, so the little I knew about #GamerGate made it seem like it was mainly a series of arguments and counter-arguments across media platforms, with some clever memeing and trolling added, and some sort of loosely-emerging strategic consensus. But was there a "-gate" style scandal anywhere at the heart of it? Usually when something gets called "X-gate" there was some sort of naughty behavior (or perceived to be so) as the initiating incident. The little I heard of it made it all sound a lot more meta than that.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 22, 2016 5:01 AM  

The usual far right fucktardary

Blogger Shimshon November 22, 2016 5:08 AM  

This is #altretard at work.

Blogger Resident Moron™ November 22, 2016 5:08 AM  

"... I learned that they will go very far out of their way in order to get that single soundbite, that single optic, that they can then use as a caricature of you for the next decade in order to discredit and disqualify you."

They don't need to be out to discredit you in order to do it inadvertently or just indifferently.

Years ago I was tutored by a man who'd spent 30 years as a marketing specialist in IBM in Europe. He taught me that there's always at least two stories: there's the story you'd like to tell and the story they'd like to tell. Of the two, the story favoured by the person writing the story is more likely to survive the process.

So I was a bit of a rising young turk at the time, and what precipitated this learning experience was being interviewed by a specialist IT publication. It my first time, I was young and foolish enough to be flattered, and the guy was really friendly, encouraging, and supportive.

The actual article made me out to be a complete fucking idiot, alienated half my customers, and caused me no end of grief with my seniors. There was no need for it. The guy was a stranger to me. There was no bad blood, no history, no rivalry, nothing. Just that he had his agenda, and it wasn't mine.

I've never accepted an interview again. It's not about intelligence (that was never a contest), it's about power. Trust me, if Vox steers clear of these arseholes, then pretty much all of us should do, too.

Because when they ARE out to destroy you ...

Their echo chamber is very effective, and highly attuned to the smell of chum in the water. Ignore them, and focus on people who can be persuaded, who can be convicted on principle, who can be saved.

Anonymous dagwood November 22, 2016 5:25 AM  

You better not cuck,
You better not signal,
You're fresh out of luck
And your status is pygmal.

Donald Trump is coming to town.

He's makin' a list
Of Cabinet guys
That'll give heart attacks
To the likes of Tim Wise.

Donald Trump is coming to town.

He sees you when you're seething,
His trolling game is on.
You'll ride with him if you like it or not
On the Trumpen-Autobahn.

You better not smear,
You better not lie.
What's that sound that I hear?
Fo, fee, fum, and fie.

Donald Trump is coming to town.

Blogger Cail Corishev November 22, 2016 5:33 AM  

It's not hard to see how it could happen. You've been drinking, people have been calling you a Nazi for years, someone says "Look at all these Nazis here," and you get silly. It probably felt like "agree and amplify" at the time, but that doesn't work when it's taken out of context from what you're agreeing and amplifying with.

I was interviewed once, on a completely uncontroversial local-interest topic, and they got things wrong out of simple ignorance and sloppiness. Same thing happened to my dad once. So the next time I was asked if I'd like to be interviwed for something, I reflexively said no. Friends were surprised, because it would have been a free promotion for my business, but they also might have made me and my business look bad. No way for me to tell, or to control it if I'd agreed to an impromptu on-camera interview.

Blogger SteelPalm November 22, 2016 5:34 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Wanderer November 22, 2016 5:40 AM  

Reminder that this is the same Richard Spencer who said that "homosexuality is implicitly white culture" and implied that anti-LGBTQ views are "semitic" in origin and foreign to whites.

If this is the future of white nationalism or alt-white/right/whatever, then I will gladly abandon all these stupid labels and just stick with traditionalism and Christianity.

I want nothing to do with any so-called pro-western movement or identity that considers the west to only be the faggy pagan years + the lefty enlightenment.

Blogger Wanderer November 22, 2016 5:54 AM  

dagwood wrote:But was there a "-gate" style scandal anywhere at the heart of it? Usually when something gets called "X-gate" there was some sort of naughty behavior (or perceived to be so) as the initiating incident.
A fat disgusting slob female SJW game developer was caught exchanging multiple blowjobs for favorable press and high scores for her terrible non-game (it was an "interactive story" that had less interaction than commenting on this blog). Most normal people were confused as to why her non-game was getting any coverage at all let alone positive coverage. A few anons from 4chan decided to dox her and harass her, but they were the exception. Most normal people were furious at the gaming media for forcibly promoting the artificial SJW agenda and for pro-lefty social engineering rather than just doing their damn jobs and reporting on facts in as neutral a way as possible. The press then covered their asses by focusing entirely on the minority of anons who harassed the female SJW game developer, and thus managed to create the narrative that #gamergate was a bunch of frustrated while male nerd misogynists who wanted to commit hatecrimes against women-in-tech. Later in turned out that this female SJW game developer was from a rich and well-connected jewish family who had ties to Gawker media and even high up to the Israeli military (her boyfriend's father was an arms dealer).

Anonymous Sciurus November 22, 2016 5:55 AM  

@15

As low as my opinion of Richard Spencer is, I have to point out that I believe the "implicit whiteness of homosexuality" stuff was just from a troll impersonating him once.

Though on the other hand, it says a lot that the troll was so convincing that people had to ask Spencer on Twitter to confirm whether or not it was actually him posting...

Blogger Cail Corishev November 22, 2016 5:55 AM  

I think Vox recently said when someone calls you a racist, you ignore it or you call him a pedophile. He didn't say to agree with it and then say racist things on camera. This is a good example of why the people trying to "claim" certain labels are wrong.

Effective rhetoric is harder than it looks.

Blogger Phillip George November 22, 2016 6:07 AM  

The bible has answers here. How do you talk to a fool? Well, you both do and you don't. Step number one is never talk to him. The rule is to talk at him. You make sounds in their general direction in order to let them think that they are being spoken to. You first have to identify that the fool isn't worth speaking to. Then you fill his ear with words. Not conversation per se, just words. The moment the fool perceives his ears filled he empties to the content in order to reply. His response, is of course, utterly redundant. See. The bible saw you before you were born.


Blogger Wanderer November 22, 2016 6:10 AM  

Sciurus wrote:As low as my opinion of Richard Spencer is, I have to point out that I believe the "implicit whiteness of homosexuality" stuff was just from a troll impersonating him once.
Is @RichardBSpencer not his real account?

https://i.imgur.com/tflMRlq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/IWZXZh0.jpg

https://archive.fo/DNFeK
https://archive.fo/XWXeW

Blogger Fenris Wulf November 22, 2016 6:24 AM  

In the unlikely event that some publication wants to talk to me, I'll regale them at length with my theories about the Worldwide Communist Gangster Computer God Conspiracy and how the CIA is using powerful shortwave transmitters to insert Death-Kill Commands into the signals from our Moon Brains.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJLhnts9-oQ

Anonymous AR Sniper November 22, 2016 6:27 AM  

It wasn't drunken 'agree & amplify', the Hail Trump was written into the speech.


http://www.radixjournal.com/journal/2016/11/21/long-live-the-emperor

Blogger tuberman November 22, 2016 6:32 AM  

I would go out to Radix about once a week and read Spencer's posts. He would constantly use the same MSM terms for PE Trump, saying how clownish, and stupid Trump IS, and he would make such remarks repetitively. It struck me that he was "dog whistling" to the mainstream powers that he wanted "in," and that he is as "intelligent" as them, and he looks at Trump the way they do.

Spencer is 100% CUCK, and he wants fame and to be on the inside with the Mainstream

Blogger ThePainTrain November 22, 2016 6:37 AM  

I think both Mike AND Richard fucked up here. Richard is a newbie in regards to media (and a bit of an attention whore to boot), so he doesn't realize you always have to have your guard up against these people. However, Mike seems all to willing to counter signal against Richard, especially when Mike (like Milo) is simultaneously associating and denying alt right involvement for maximum shekels.

Blogger Ezekiel November 22, 2016 6:43 AM  

http://www.infostormer.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Trump-Gassing-Hillary.gif

Looks like a good idea to me, actually. They've been crying for weeks about the fact that our country is about to be ruled by a bunch of deplorable Nazis who are going to shoah them as soon as our God-Emperor says the word, so why not feed that delusion? Worst case scenario is that one of them works up the balls to take a shot at him (and probably gets arrested or killed long before actually becoming a threat), more likely it just ensures that the salt will keep flowing for another eight years.

Honestly, I was always a little more concerned about calling him "God Emperor" than calling him "Furher". I know which one I'd be safer saying around my mom.

Blogger Phillip George November 22, 2016 6:47 AM  

Vox, in my lifetime the single most imprssive insult I've heard is "if I valued your opinion I would have given it to you".

That is all Trump needs to know in dealing with the MSM. Their opinions aren't worth his conversation.

They died in 2016.

Blogger tuberman November 22, 2016 6:47 AM  

To me: Mike hit the nail direct on the head with his call, and gained enormous respect from me.

I've been reading Spencer for a while now with some good posts, but major cuck words being used by him, so I've been suspicious of him for months.

Anonymous Stickwick November 22, 2016 6:47 AM  

I recently had a request from a documentary filmmaker for an interview that was to be incorporated into some kind of radio program. We went back and forth a bit by email, and she said something about an opportunity to "get my story out," but the details were inconsistent in a way that left room for her to use the interview however she wanted, even though she was trying to make it sound as though it would be used for one specific purpose. When I pointed out this inconsistency and asked for clarification, she stopped responding. Maybe I struck her as too high maintenance to work with, but it sort of gives one an impression that the intent behind her request wasn't so benign. My guess is that these people are very practiced in the art of luring subjects in while presenting their requests in a way that allows them to do pretty much whatever they want with the material you give them.

Blogger oero nolem November 22, 2016 6:57 AM  

From the inside, mirrored domes confirm one's central position. Inertia rules when a snooker ball impacts something the size of a planet. In sales, memorising objection handling is crucial for all but the 0.01 percent. Know your enemy in fractal-like detail. Postpone battles until the lay of the land has been surveyed. Listen to veterans.

Blogger wreckage November 22, 2016 6:58 AM  

Never talk to the media. Here is the flowchart:

Is it the media? -> yes -> don't talk to them.

Blogger Rodger Smith November 22, 2016 6:58 AM  

Spencer has some good ideas. I used to follow him and read his site daily, but his almost childish berating of the Christian religion became so obnoxious that I finally quit following him or his site.

Anonymous Yann November 22, 2016 7:02 AM  

I don't understand your surprise. Maybe you're not used to that kind of tricks, but they're quite usual in Mediterranean countries. As US is becoming culturally Latin, expect more.

Basically, it's a living straw-man. However, instead of making him up, you look for some creep and give him the micro. If there's some nuts wanting to say "hail trump" in US, you can be sure that the mainstream media will be there each and every time. As it happened with the "trump and kkk" stuff: there's THREE TIMES more articles about trump and the kkk, ONLY in the mainstream media (the ones that appear in google news) that the member count of the kkk.

You'll see more of it.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 22, 2016 7:05 AM  

Back in the day the neo-nazis did paid interviews as their sole source of income, maybe those days are back.

Trying to earn a smart badge from an establishment media outlet only re affirms the authority of the media establishment.

Maybe next time you get an interview request tell them to email you a couple of questions and put them on the blog and we will answer them. Spread the fun

OpenID basementhomebrewer November 22, 2016 7:12 AM  

Too many of Spencer's crowd have been concerned with "credit" for being the OG alt-right. Every time Vox mentions how GG helped the alt-right there are a few commenters who show up here and tell us all how they never needed GG and it did nothing to help them. Then they proceed to take credit for getting trump elected through the least effective memes that were being passed around. This is more of the same from this crowd. They don't understand what rhetoric works and what rhetoric doesn't. They thought this was taking their swastika Pepe memes to the next level. Instead it is giving the enemy the ammo they need to fight them with.

OT: The globalists are getting concerned they are now trying to drag Britian into a binding EU army before they invoke article 50.

daily mail

Blogger JACIII November 22, 2016 7:22 AM  

The WaPo piece was surprisingly tame.

Framed as some crazy nazi wannabes being obnoxious and the goodthiinkers outside carrying the torch of righteousness.

These people have a fed, a media plant, or a moron in their midst. They are fringe, helping the MSM frame the entirety as fringe. That's not the job of fringe.

Blogger Wanderer November 22, 2016 7:26 AM  

@34
They don't understand either strategy or tactics. All they know is brute forcing some warmed over pepe memes on social media. As soon as you suggest any sort of nuance or subtlety then you get shouted down as a cuck or PR concern troll. Right now they're celebrating this incident as a "win" because "those stupid jews in the media are kvetching." They don't understand that they're being set up and are playing right into the narrative. Nobody here is saying to compromise on your beliefs with regards to things like the border or human biodiversity or white identity or whatever, but for fuck's sake don't throw up a roman salute in front of the controlled, hoaxing media when the real war for the west has only just started. Leftist SJWs didn't get to the position that they're in today by screaming for shemale bathroom rights and pedophile normalization right off the bat. We had to deal with decades of them lying and hiding their true motives and handwaving away any criticism as fallacious or irrational conspiracy theories.

Anonymous JJ Timmins November 22, 2016 7:38 AM  

We need some field marshals in this movement to control those spewing the supremacist vomit that the media is sitting by to lap up and regurgitate. Do people realize DD's sole income is interviews? The man lives in a single-wide trailer, for crying out loud. Richard Spencer is heading toward that life at this rate.

Blogger Nate November 22, 2016 7:39 AM  

Tempest. Teakettle.

its right and good to analyze it and learn from the mistakes and move on... but its a mistake to make a bigger deal out of it than it is.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 22, 2016 7:39 AM  

I believe they are following the old George Lincoln Rockwell script of outrageous political theatre to grab the attention of the establishment and force the establishment in their direction. Obviously they think a Trump win is a validation of this strategy, I have my doubts.

But I think Trump can use these stiff arm clowns to further delegitimize the establishment press. I don't think it would be that difficult for the GEA to put both clown crews in the same bag and throw them into the river of history.

Blogger Nate November 22, 2016 7:43 AM  

"They are fringe, helping the MSM frame the entirety as fringe. That's not the job of fringe."

while I don't disagree with the assessment... I would simply point out that this particular fringe has a long and storied history of gross-incompetence that rivals that of Vanderbilt Football.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) November 22, 2016 7:43 AM  

Reminds me of this:

https://mobile.twitter.com/RosieGray/status/789985264282271744

Anonymous Fisher November 22, 2016 7:50 AM  

Calm down, fags.

White Nationalists are gonna White Nationalist.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) November 22, 2016 7:53 AM  

The dinner, held Friday at Maggiano’s Little Italy in Friendship Heights

Obviously this is signaling that they are fascists because fascism began in Italy.

Blogger William Meisheid November 22, 2016 7:55 AM  

You don't throw red meat in front of a pack of wild dogs. The MSM will have their feeding frenzy over this self-inflicted wound.

Blogger Sagramore November 22, 2016 7:58 AM  

@8 The only appropriate -gate is where you should get to if you have a heart attack in Buffalo.

The tl;dr is that gamers were shocked, shocked that there was collusion between the gaming press and developers going on. Some of us who are veterans of media and manipulation (I'm not Trump or Milo class but I have had some fun with manipulating narrative in the past, and being the guy who finds the man who bites dog to promote my interests) and watching these crazy kids wake up was actually rather fun and inspiring for some of us oldfags.

Blogger Nate November 22, 2016 7:59 AM  

"White Nationalists are gonna White Nationalist."

yup. And when you keep doing the same things... you're going to keep getting the same results.

Anonymous H0bG0b November 22, 2016 8:02 AM  

I was under the impression that the Alt-Right, neither cared what people thought of them, nor how things looked.

The God-Emperor is already the next Hitler according to the media, after all, he was "endorsed by the KKK". I don't see what difference this going to make.

Richard should stop doing interviews with the Old Media though, and treat them with the contempt they deserve.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 22, 2016 8:06 AM  

But gents the paid interviews are going to be epic comedy, rumor has it that replica Hugo Boss tunics and Runes have been flying off the shelves in anticipation of selling an interview to the MSM. As for the Klan giving an interview, basically Trump can signal to the FBI that the agent provacateurs will not be tolerated.

Blogger Nate November 22, 2016 8:10 AM  

Case in point. Spencer says "One wonders if these people are people at all, or instead soulless golem." The quote in context is asking if the MEDIA are even people.

CNN spends several minutes on air... talking about how Richard said that about jews. "Alt-Right Leaders asks if Jews are People" is their headline.

This is why Milo gets to play the game... and you shouldn't.

Blogger The Deuce November 22, 2016 8:12 AM  

This is something I've sensed brewing for a while now. The alt-white resents the expansion of the alt-right, and is deliberately initiating a purity spiral to drive everyone else off. They're trying to make it so that being associated with Hitler is the cost of associating with them. Spencer would rather be the top dog of his own little ideologically pure fringe than to actuality accomplish anything by letting it be sullied, which, given the entire premise of white nationalism, shouldn't be too surprising I suppose.

Blogger JACIII November 22, 2016 8:12 AM  

Can't figure their MO other than they think one of these days they are going to throw that hand up and everyone else will suddenly decide to play along.

The mental processes of the retard are as baffling as those of the Super Genius.

Anonymous Bob Ramar November 22, 2016 8:13 AM  

I had never heard (or read) the name "Richard Spencer" until Monday afternoon when a 'conservative' talk radio host out of Asheville NC mentioned him. The host was commenting about an 'alt-right' conference that was held last weekend. Specifically the host mentioned the 'nazi salutes' and that 'alt-right' was really a 'white nationalist' (therefore bad) movement. The 'nazi' salutes, etc. were tossed out as evidence that the movement, and anybody associated with it, were 'bad' and to be avoided like a plague carrier.

Anonymous VFM #6306 November 22, 2016 8:24 AM  

I would simply point out that this particular fringe has a long and storied history of gross-incompetence that rivals that of Vanderbilt Football.

Nate.

Too far.

Let's keep things civil and within the bounds of mental retardation and other natural causes.

Anonymous Fisher November 22, 2016 8:27 AM  

H0bG0b wrote:[...]The God-Emperor is already the next Hitler according to the media, after all, he was "endorsed by the KKK".

Precisely this.

We are dealing with a media that is making no distinction between the likes of Steve Bannon and Adolf Hitler; Civic Nationalism and the NSDAP; etc.

We are seeing the rite of passage through which all truth must go. Is Spencer being set up? Of course. However, regardless of how he handles it, it serves as a wonderful opportunity to draw attention to the Alt Right generally; and, the nuance that exists therein, in particular.

For all of the talk of repositioning the Overton Window, few appear to understand how to leverage 'overreaching' while keeping cordial with the men who aren't armchair quarterbacking.

Blogger Nate November 22, 2016 8:29 AM  

"We are dealing with a media that is making no distinction between the likes of Steve Bannon and Adolf Hitler; Civic Nationalism and the NSDAP; etc. "

Bannon? Hell these people called Romney Hitler... and Dubya... and McCain... and every other republican.

They are going to call everyone HitlerRacist. But that's the point. Its not that you don't give them a reason to do it. They'd do it anyway. The point is to make them look stupid by making it obvious that they are calling decent americans hitler.

Anonymous VFM #6306 November 22, 2016 8:35 AM  

The "agree and amplify" sperg here is the same gamma who thinks he is "A&A"-ing with a girl by wearing a dress to prove he's a feminist.

Anonymous Anonymous November 22, 2016 8:37 AM  

From what I heard somewhere, Gay Culture is fairly white, with blacks gearing towards Down-low Culture... But if he said that it sounds totally gay!

Anonymous Avalanche November 22, 2016 8:38 AM  

@4 "you can't hold the whole alt right responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole political system?"

The cry of the wounded feelings: "I don't CARE if what I have done is injurious to my end goals (or those of the movement I purport to uphold)! It's my RIGHT to do it! And I was RIGHT to do it! And people shouldn't interpret it any way except the way *I* intended it! I have been mistreated and I want my 'day in court'!"

Same as the idiot David Irving trying to find "justice" against a (typical) charge of antisemitism: in a court with a jewish-controlled judge, jewish lawyers, in a system RUN by jews, in a country run by jews! "Daddy-court, make it right!" Daddy-court is on THEIR side!

Not only must 'Caesar's wife be above suspicion,' she must APPEAR to be above suspicion! DO not play the fool for the lying press -- for they WILL lie and use your foolishness against US!

Blogger The Deuce November 22, 2016 8:44 AM  

I have to say, it's unfortunate that the term "alt-right" was coined by Spencer, since he seems liable to burn his own house down. He can plausibly tell the media that he represents the "real" alt-right, and they'll be more than happy to amplify that.

Blogger Nate November 22, 2016 8:47 AM  

"I have to say, it's unfortunate that the term "alt-right" was coined by Spencer, since he seems liable to burn his own house down."

doesn't matter. it always works like this. some fringe extremists comes up with something and it goes mainstream... and fringe extremist creater thinks the world has finally realized how awesome he is...

Right before normal people take what he created, kick him out, and run with it.

Anonymous Eric the Red November 22, 2016 8:50 AM  

"He wants to be the media-anointed leader of the Alt-Right because he believes, wrongly, that this will help him achieve his objectives."

My quick attempt at finding more information about Spencer's comments on Trump is proving worthless on various search engines, i.e., I can't confirm @23's comment.


VD's observation about Spencer wanting to assume the leadership role for alt-everything makes sense. That 'Hail Trump' stunt was calculated and deliberate... Spencer wants to force the issue about a Hiteresque approach to deal with the left. But his target is less Trump, less the media, and more the alt-right. He knows we don't want to be tone police, but simultaneously we also assume a distinction between healthy nationalism versus National Socialism. In order to secure the leadership role he wants, Spencer is forcing the alt-right to completely accept him or reject him. He assumes that Trump can successfully take care of any guilt-by-association himself.

Blogger Nate November 22, 2016 8:53 AM  

"In order to secure the leadership role he wants, Spencer is forcing the alt-right to completely accept him or reject him."

That sounds plausible to me. It also makes sense given that people like spencer almost always assume they are far more important to a given movement than they actually are.

Blogger Lazarus November 22, 2016 8:53 AM  

VFM #6306 wrote:Let's keep things civil and within the bounds of mental retardation and other natural causes.


Dynamite, Dynamite
When VANDY starts to fight.
Down the field with blood to yield,
If need be, save the shield.
If vict'ry's won, when battle's done,
Then VANDY's name will rise in fame.
Win not lose,
It's ours to choose,
And VANDY's game will be the same.
Dynamite, Dynamite
When VANDY starts to fight!
Fight!

Dynamite, Dynamite
When ALT-WHITE starts to fight.
Down the field with blood to yield,
If need be, save the shield.
If vict'ry's won, when battle's done,
Then ALT-WHITE's name will rise in fame.
Win not lose,
It's ours to choose,
And ALT-WHITE's game will be the same.
Dynamite, Dynamite
When ALT-WHITE starts to fight!
Fight!

Anonymous Avalanche November 22, 2016 8:56 AM  

@36 "Right now they're celebrating this incident as a "win" because "those stupid jews in the media are kvetching." They don't understand that they're being set up and are playing right into the narrative. Nobody here is saying to compromise on your beliefs"

We are STILL living "behind enemy lines"! That we now have (what we hope and pray will be) a fantastic general does NOT mean we are not still in the enemy camps!

I believe we should still be treading VERY carefully until the inauguration. I'm still grinning like a loon about the God Emperor whacking the HELL out of the MSM. (Oh! to have been a fly on that wall!) But I also see that yuuuge numbers of erstwhile Americans (including many, many folks on our side!) are MSM watchers and MSM believers, and any misstep we take will be used against us -- and worse! -- against our President!

Letting our joy and celebrations make us careless -- IN ANY WAY! -- while behind enemy lines is a mistake!

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 22, 2016 8:57 AM  

I guess there is not much that can be done to the Nazi fringe except maybe let them burn hotter and burn out quickly, the more ridiculous they look the easier Trump can tag them onto their media string pullers.

So I'll raise the ante, the legacy media plays the Spencer chip I raise with the Harold Covington chip (his quartet series was pretty good, but he is a "dress up"). I'm sure Uncle Harold could use a few bucks from MSNBC.

Blogger doug whiddon November 22, 2016 8:59 AM  

Its because of stuff like this that I think The Donald should forgo the white house press club. Why give office space in the white house to a bunch of people who hate him and want to destroy him? Hold press conferences via Skype and address the American people directly through the internet.

Blogger JDC November 22, 2016 9:00 AM  

The media is both disingenuous and lazy. Milo himself stated, "And the movement (alt-right) certainly isn’t led by me — although the media seems determined to crown me its queen."

Still, he is described as the leader of the racist, white alt-right.

Blogger dc.sunsets November 22, 2016 9:03 AM  

Given the money involved (Soros' billions on one side, Uncle Sam's bottomless wallet on the other) it's entirely possible that everything we see is nothing but the interaction of two Kabuki Theater troupes wrestling for upstage prominence intended to manage people's minds.

The paradox of this is that people's minds are not changed from the outside. The switch occurs on the inside, and only then does the newly-changed mind go looking for confirmation & supporting rationales.

No one shows up to Vox Popoli thinking Left, and leaves thinking Right. The MSM mind-control paradigm is based on a false premise, that the center can stage-manage the audience.

Armies cannot resist an idea whose time has come (but we should enjoy them burning up a vast amount of their money trying to do so.)

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) November 22, 2016 9:03 AM  

while I don't disagree with the assessment... I would simply point out that this particular fringe has a long and storied history of gross-incompetence that rivals that of Vanderbilt Football.

We just stomped Ole Miss to win the Khaki Bowl.

Anonymous Ron November 22, 2016 9:05 AM  

Richard has bad judgement. About two years ago he invited a flaming sodomite to address the crowd essentially creating a freak show. That made zero sense and displayed a lack of social awareness. Just how did he think that would go over with his core group of supporters?

Anonymous teapartydoc November 22, 2016 9:05 AM  

There's every chance that the guys throwing the salutes at the beginning were/are infiltrators. Off times the most enthusiastic of any group like this are. I speak from experience.

Blogger Old Ez November 22, 2016 9:06 AM  

Here's a dirty little secret: when uninhibited white men get together in a room with alcohol, Roman Saluting is the most natural thing in the world. I can't tell you how many times hanging out with my normie friends - the ones that don't have so much as a racist fingernail - someone will throw one up and pretty soon the whole group is doing it. Look, this is normal behavior for young white men. It just is. If the media wants to kvetch about it, let them. We dgaf anymore. Not giving af is what got Trump elected and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. :HAIL TRUMP:

Blogger Nate November 22, 2016 9:06 AM  

"We just stomped Ole Miss to win the Khaki Bowl. "

yes.

And you'll follow that up by being publically executed by UT 130 to 3. and you'll finish 5-7. And you're so terrible most of your fans will think it was a good year.

Blogger dc.sunsets November 22, 2016 9:07 AM  

I live in a small media market, and the Roman Salute video was shown on the FOX affiliate's local news. This is in a county that voted Red overwhelmingly.

The Left still owns The Megaphone. The Left still thinks The Megaphone can capture and contain minds. You'd think the recent election would have bitch-slapped some sense into them, but their thinking is no less open to outside reframing than are the minds of those they believe they control.

There are no outside observers.

Blogger dc.sunsets November 22, 2016 9:08 AM  

Oops. "but their thinking is no MORE open to outside reframing than are the minds of those they believe they control."

Blogger JACIII November 22, 2016 9:08 AM  

doug whiddon wrote:Its because of stuff like this that I think The Donald should forgo the white house press club. Why give office space in the white house to a bunch of people who hate him and want to destroy him? Hold press conferences via Skype and address the American people directly through the internet.

Correct. No reason to aid the dinosaur media unless they are your allies. Technology has rendered their service (information dissemination) obsolete.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) November 22, 2016 9:10 AM  

And you'll follow that up by being publically executed by UT 130 to 3. and you'll finish 5-7. And you're so terrible most of your fans will think it was a good year.

This is all true

Anonymous Ironsides November 22, 2016 9:14 AM  

H0bG0b wrote:I was under the impression that the Alt-Right, neither cared what people thought of them, nor how things looked.

The God-Emperor is already the next Hitler according to the media, after all, he was "endorsed by the KKK". I don't see what difference this going to make.

Richard should stop doing interviews with the Old Media though, and treat them with the contempt they deserve.



I tend to agree. What happened to "we don't care?"

"Racist" became the lever the left could pull to put the cuckservatives on the defensive like a Pavlovian response. It worked so well that they not only ended up making the conservative movement completely impotent, but turned it into a submissive branch of their anti-white movement.

Now we're supposed to start having a Pavlovian response of cringing at the accusation "Nazi" instead of shrugging it off or agreeing and amplifying? Fuck that, it just gives them power over the alt-right -- some kind of kryptonite that weakens our knees, something that makes us flee like vampires before garlic.

I'm not a Nazi myself -- too collectivist for my tastes. But if we start turning on each other when the MSM points out a target, then they've taken a long step towards making us dance on their puppet strings. If Richard Spencer snaps a Nazi salute, my recommendation would be to give him a cheerful wave and move on.

Don't give the wendigos in the press any power over our reactions to each other. All it does is give them power over everyone to listen and starts to make them able to dictate what we do using the lever of fear.

Anonymous YM13 November 22, 2016 9:18 AM  

I agree with your assessment. Most likely Spencer is not part of some controlled opposition or something like that. However, the possibility of some outside influence trying to make members of the alt-right, and by extension all of the alt-right, look bad, shouldn't be completely ruled out. To reference a more local example, the Israeli government is know not have, at times, infiltrated right-wing Jewish groups with Shin-Bet agents to provoke members of the group into doing something stupid that will allow the entire group to be discredited and painted as radical. These people wouldn't necessarily become leaders of those groups while undercover, but often would be among the most radical members of the group, again, to give its opponents ammunition. Again, I'm not saying that's what happened here, but it might be worth looking into if someone, either someone closely affiliated with Spencer or even just someone at the event (prime suspects might be the first people to throw up the salute, might've been a provacateur of some sort, whether sent by a government, media, or other group.

Here's an article about an example of government agents infiltrating right-wing groups: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/169511

Anonymous karsten November 22, 2016 9:19 AM  

I understand the critiques. But I don't agree with them. This is a perfect mirror image of the hand-wringing that the cucks expressed at every turn regarding Trump and how he was supposedly shaming the Republican Party and bringing the Republican Party and its downballot into disrepute.

What ever happened to "The Alt-Right doesn't care what you think of it"?

One of the most important things that Trump has done and is doing is breaking Leftist-imposed taboos. If the Alt-Right is to have any value, it must, must, must not merely go to Trump's line and no farther, but push on and kick against further taboos -- specifically the ones that even Trump cannot (yet) kick against.

Reich memes on Twitter have already done much to break the sacrosanct Leftist taboos around the war. What Spencer did is merely continuing and expanding that, and in real life. He's making the media cry "Wolf, wolf, wolf" ever-more-shrilly, and the more the media does this, the less effectiveness their caterwauling has.

I've slammed Richard Spencer for various things in the past, especially his pan-European silliness. But this time, he's right.

And I'm sorry, but Mike Cernovic criticizing anyone for self-promotion is the richest hypocrisy ever. Talk about pot and kettle. I believe Vox when he says that he's not jealous of Richard's attention. But you'd better believe that Mike C., the most shameless self-promoter in the Alt Lite, certainly is. Also, like everyone of his tribe, he has a vested interest in preventing the Left's taboos around the war and the Reich from being broken.

Anonymous Vermithrax Pejorative November 22, 2016 9:20 AM  

Vox, you need to put this advice into a short pdf like the 'SJW Attack Survival Guide'

Maybe call it the 'Press Survival Guide' or something.

Because if this movement survives and grows and stays decentralized - and we want it to - this kind of thing is going to happen again.

Anonymous karsten November 22, 2016 9:28 AM  

"Mike seems all to willing to counter signal against Richard, especially when Mike (like Milo) is simultaneously associating and denying alt right involvement for maximum shekels"

That is absolutely my take as well. If there's one sound principle in the Alt Right, one single thing that distinguishes it from cuckservatism and NR, it is, "Don't punch right."

Mike is trying to do to Richard what Buckley did to the John Birch society, and to Joe Sobran, and the rest -- and for the exact same reasons. Disgraceful. And yes, typical of his tribe.

Blogger Cail Corishev November 22, 2016 9:30 AM  

They are going to call everyone HitlerRacist.

They go stick a microphone in David Duke's face every four years to get his presidential endorsement so they can say Republican==KKK. There's just no reason to help them.

Everyone should keep in mind Vox's third point: it's not a big deal. As long as they're not stupid enough to apologize, it will blow away. It was just kinda dumb.

Blogger Student in Blue November 22, 2016 9:31 AM  

I tend to agree. What happened to "we don't care?"

There are multiple shades of "we don't care". You could theoretically say "well if you don't care why do you still eat/drink/breathe/exist? durr just by living you're CARING!"

This is a nonsensical interpretation that doesn't jive with the rest of the 16 points as proposed by Vox. Clearly there is some things we care about - creating a future that our children can live in, to name one. So the question clearly becomes, just what is it we don't care about?

Often described as 'we don't care what you think of us', it would be more accurate to describe it as 'you calling us nasty words and thinking we're bad people isn't going to shut us up'.

This is entirely different from actively giving our enemies fodder to work with, because giving our enemies fodder to work with actively works against our main objectives. You have to wake people up to the false song of globalism, and accepting the trappings the enemy tries to force on you only helps to further serve the enemy's narrative.

It doesn't matter if HuffPo literally thinks we're murderous nazis, what matters is A) if we're speaking the truth and B) if we're convincing people. Don't aid and abet your enemy.

Doing a foolish PR stunt like this and justifying it by saying "we don't care!" is like charging an army into heavily fortified position only because "we're brave!".

Blogger Retrenched November 22, 2016 9:32 AM  

Meanwhile, Democrats are sending death threats to Republican electors.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2016/11/desperate-democrats-turn-to-death-threats.php

Anonymous Broken Arrow November 22, 2016 9:33 AM  

This was bound to happen and will happen a few more times.

Blogger Solaire Of Astora November 22, 2016 9:34 AM  

Mike got a lot of unwarranted heat last night. He was well meaning and an inability to take criticism about messaging from a guy who makes it business to understand that sort of thing is really stupid. I heard a lot of people saying this incident wouldn't hurt since Trump is already elected but what will it help?

Blogger Nate November 22, 2016 9:37 AM  

"That is absolutely my take as well. If there's one sound principle in the Alt Right, one single thing that distinguishes it from cuckservatism and NR, it is, "Don't punch right." "

Don't mistake some guys in the film room learning from their mistakes with punching.

While I personally loathe Richard Spencer... and think he's a perfect moron that will likely do far more harm than good... I've never gone after him in any public way. This isn't an attack either. its a post mortem. its learning what you can do better next time.

Anonymous JAMES November 22, 2016 9:41 AM  

Spencer is indeed setting himself up to be the next David Duke.

Most of the kids currently cheering him on are too young to understand why that's a bad thing.

Or did the good Doctor Duke win his Senate election and I just missed it?

I would have thought something like that would have been big news.

Maybe the jews covered it up.

Making yourself into a giant lightning rod can work sometimes for some people.

I'm pretty sure Richard isn't one of them.

Anonymous Ironsides November 22, 2016 9:41 AM  

Student in Blue wrote:I tend to agree. What happened to "we don't care?"

There are multiple shades of "we don't care". You could theoretically say "well if you don't care why do you still eat/drink/breathe/exist? durr just by living you're CARING!"

This is a nonsensical interpretation that doesn't jive with the rest of the 16 points as proposed by Vox. Clearly there is some things we care about - creating a future that our children can live in, to name one. So the question clearly becomes, just what is it we don't care about?

Often described as 'we don't care what you think of us', it would be more accurate to describe it as 'you calling us nasty words and thinking we're bad people isn't going to shut us up'.

This is entirely different from actively giving our enemies fodder to work with, because giving our enemies fodder to work with actively works against our main objectives. You have to wake people up to the false song of globalism, and accepting the trappings the enemy tries to force on you only helps to further serve the enemy's narrative.

It doesn't matter if HuffPo literally thinks we're murderous nazis, what matters is A) if we're speaking the truth and B) if we're convincing people. Don't aid and abet your enemy.

Doing a foolish PR stunt like this and justifying it by saying "we don't care!" is like charging an army into heavily fortified position only because "we're brave!".


What you're saying sounds to me like "it doesn't matter if the Left calls us racists because we're really not racists -- the Democrats are the real racists!"

FFS, the Alt-Right is now willing to disown one of its writers because he did something that causes the MSM to call us Nazis? When they already call us Nazis?

If so, then I congratulate the miserable sons of whores, because they just defeated us. Or rather, we defeated ourselves by caring, by cringing in front of labels, by letting them shape The Narrative and accepting that narrative, by showing fear and creating an area we won't go (which they can now exploit and exploit and exploit, just like they exploited the knee-jerk terror of the cuckservatives over the word "racist" to completely castrate them and turn them into the bitch to the leftist's butch).

Fuck that. Fuck the MSM. Fuck all forms of virtue signaling and Marquis of Queensbury rules. Fuck Mike Cernovich for the whining Alt-Cuck he is. Hail Victory, hail Trump.

Blogger Cail Corishev November 22, 2016 9:45 AM  

What ever happened to "The Alt-Right doesn't care what you think of it"?

It's the difference between reacting to the ridiculous names they call you, and giving them more ammo to attack you with. If they call you a Nazi because you voted for Trump, that's stupid, so laugh in their faces. If they call you a Nazi because you just said you were a Nazi on camera....

Here's the difference between this and "God Emperor Trump," as I see it. Everyone except the spergiest sperges recognizes "God Emperor Trump" is rhetoric, intended to tweak the opposition, and it works great for that.

But many Americans believe (thanks to media education) that Nazis are still a real thing to worry about, especially in Europe and in the hinterlands of the US. So if some sober, sensible-looking bobblehead on TV tells them American Nazis support Trump, and plays a clip of "Nazis" celebrating and ties those people to the campaign, people will buy it.

Of course, the media could have found some Nazis somewhere to cheer Trump on camera, but it wouldn't be as convincing if it was some guy on a compound in Kansas, instead of a guy who's been interviewed on TV as "a leader of the alt-right."

Still not a big deal, but that's why it's different.

Blogger Cataline Sergius November 22, 2016 9:46 AM  

What ever happened to "The Alt-Right doesn't care what you think of it"?

Look I'm not into reading people out of the movement for saying and doing stupid shit. In this age of the internet there is no privacy anymore. There is nothing you can say or do that is "Strictly off the record".

That said, we don't need to reward public stupidity with unflagging statements of loyal support either.

The AltRight can survive and flourish as a cloud movement but it will wither and die if it gains a leader.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 22, 2016 9:47 AM  

This might be of some use to our meme masters. Years ago Justin Raimondo wrote a column about Nazi porn in Israel in the late 60s, lurid images, the usual bad boy being spanked by a strapping blonde lady in a black tunic, moronic shit but it sold.

Basically I would tag that porn onto the MSM because how plausible is it that Rachael Maddow and the less masculine men of the MSM have a fetish for Nazi Naughty boy/girl/undecided spanky discipline time?

Anonymous JAMES November 22, 2016 9:48 AM  

Ironsides you miss the point.

It doesn't matter one jot if the corrupt press calls the Alt-right evil nazis, they've been doing that for ages and nothing will stop them.

What matters is the ability to win sympathy from normies.

The revolutionary fish needs SOME water to swim in.

This isn't about caring, it's not about anyone's feelings.

It's about winning.

Blogger praetorian November 22, 2016 9:49 AM  

Sciurus wrote:@15

As low as my opinion of Richard Spencer is, I have to point out that I believe the "implicit whiteness of homosexuality" stuff was just from a troll impersonating him once.

Though on the other hand, it says a lot that the troll was so convincing that people had to ask Spencer on Twitter to confirm whether or not it was actually him posting...


That quote was taken entirely out of context. He was talking about *resistance* to the homosexual agenda (by duck dynasty, specifically) It's too late now and the chans (Kek bless them) will never let it go, but people here should know that.

I'm about as polar opposite of Richard as it gets here on the alt-right: christian, anti-centralization/pro-distributisim, skeptical of pan-europeanism and ironically nietzschean. For goodness sake, the guy is a fan of Lincoln. That being said, he's been in the game for a long time and has sacrificed quite a bit personally for the cause, so I'm willing to cut him some slack and see how it all works out.

Maybe getting caught was part of his plan.

Blogger Sillon Bono November 22, 2016 9:49 AM  

I do not get why everybody is so triumphalist, and not just talking about Richard Spencer's stupid stunt.

We're not out of the woods yet with regards to the left, they will be stunned for a period of time, then regroup and resume their drip-drip-drip methodologies of getting under people's skins with a vengeance.

The level of indoctrination that some of the leftards have been exhibiting since the election makes me fear the worst, these people are lost, we're talking about a generation or two of useful idiots who have been brainwashed to the point they think they are going to be rounded and killed, or the earth rendered inhabitable in the next 4 years by global climate-scam.

I'm not scared not advocating for fear mongering, but what we should never do is underestimate the left and their incommensurate ability to cause harm through their ignorance + malice.

Blogger Nate November 22, 2016 9:50 AM  

"FFS, the Alt-Right is now willing to disown one of its writers because he did something that causes the MSM to call us Nazis? When they already call us Nazis? "

Put on your big girl panties and learn to take some objective criticism.

No one is disowning anyone. We are saying "this was a mistake". Only gammas think they are to perfect to make mistakes. Everyone else is accountable, learns from their mistakes, and moves on.

Blogger Nate November 22, 2016 9:52 AM  

"That quote was taken entirely out of context. He was talking about *resistance* to the homosexual agenda (by duck dynasty, specifically) It's too late now and the chans (Kek bless them) will never let it go, but people here should know that."

Not that I agree with your assessment... but you're inadvertantly proving our point. Which is that Richard says thinks without realizing how they will be used against him.

Anonymous TheBoom November 22, 2016 9:57 AM  

Richard has some important things to say but he also seems too enamored of the limelight. Hard for me to imagine he will start shunning the mainstream media as he should. Make them work harder to discredit the alt-right and Trump.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) November 22, 2016 9:59 AM  

My summary of the OP and this thread:

The media is going to smear you, but don't make it easy for them.

Nazi salutes make it real easy for them.

Blogger Student in Blue November 22, 2016 10:00 AM  

What you're saying sounds to me like "it doesn't matter if the Left calls us racists because we're really not racists -- the Democrats are the real racists!"

You'll have to be a little more specific how in the world you came to that conclusion rather than "it sounds to me like", as that was not anywhere near my intention at all.

FFS, the Alt-Right is now willing to disown one of its writers because he did something that causes the MSM to call us Nazis? When they already call us Nazis?

I'm not "disowning", I'm calling what he did really damn stupid.

Or what, is criticism of Richard Spencer suddenly verboten? Is he above reproach?

Anonymous JAMES November 22, 2016 10:02 AM  

Exactly. The enemy is going to shoot at you, why load his gun?

But more importantly Spencer is setting himself up for a fall.

The press is very good at chewing up the latest glorious leader and spitting out his bones.

Blogger Nate November 22, 2016 10:02 AM  

"Or what, is criticism of Richard Spencer suddenly verboten? Is he above reproach?"

yes. Because gamma.

Anonymous VFM #6306 November 22, 2016 10:03 AM  

It is very, very simple.

We don't care what our opponents say or think about us. We do care that we actually conduct ourselves as the Hard Right.

Nazi salutes are a) Left-Wing b) Occult and c) Oriental/Italian.

Not white. Not Alt-Right.

An abortionist who videotaped himself performing a voodoo sacrifice with fetal parts would be rejected by the most staunch pagan Pro-Choicers on the grounds that abortion is for a) medical purposes b) pregnant women and c) private choice.

Would they care if the doc did it in private? Hell no.

Same with these Nazi Larpers. Get drunk and do your private socialist fetishizing if it makes you feel better.

But on purpose and in public?

That's, at best, an oops.

Anonymous JAMES November 22, 2016 10:04 AM  

Spencer has a lot of good ideas, but his tactics suck.

He and many of those currently congratulating him seem to think no one has ever thought of doing what he's doing before.

Anonymous Ironsides November 22, 2016 10:07 AM  

Nate wrote:"FFS, the Alt-Right is now willing to disown one of its writers because he did something that causes the MSM to call us Nazis? When they already call us Nazis? "

Put on your big girl panties and learn to take some objective criticism.

No one is disowning anyone. We are saying "this was a mistake". Only gammas think they are to perfect to make mistakes. Everyone else is accountable, learns from their mistakes, and moves on.



And this stuff that I'm giving is constructive criticism of Vox and the people here who are taking that primrose path to tone policing that totally castrated the conservative movement. The guy who said Cernovich is trying to play Buckley to Spencer's John Birch Society got it exactly right. Why don't YOU put on YOUR big girl panties and take some objective criticism yourself?

So, basically, the idea is that it's fine to say that there are differences in the races; that the races can't live together; that googles are stupid, violent, and suited only to living in their own tribal African societies; that diversity + proximity WILL lead to race war if not corrected; that Jews are masterminding the destruction of the white race...

... but saying "Hail Victory" (which, incidentally, Andrew Anglin has been doing throughout the entire election cycle) and snapping a Roman salute is suddenly a bridge too far?

What's next -- "we're not really racist?"

"Blacks and Hispanics are welcome in the Big Tent too as long as they voted for Trump?"

"Somalis can come to the U.S. as long as they agree there needs to be a Future for White Children?"

I mean, if the Alt-Right is going to start regulating its behavior and pussyfooting and walking on eggshells to prevent the MSM from calling them mean names, then the Alt-Right is done. Finished. Washed up already.

Think about it. The cucks got utterly wrapped up in micromanaging their own image to prove they weren't "racist" that they became totally ineffective at accomplish anything. And yet the Leftists still shrieked "Racist! Racist! Racist! Racist!"

Why the hell is anyone on our side wasting ink on tone policing Richard Spencer rather than shrugging about it, and using all that energy to look for a new way to rip the Leftists a new one?

The best defense is a good offense, gentlemen.

Blogger tz November 22, 2016 10:10 AM  

He poked the bear and got mauled.
This is another MSM technique - find a fringe character for a soundbite, then ask everyone to react to it. In this case if you don't denounce it, you are a brownshirt and Trump is Hitler - and that last meme is the important one.
Meanwhile four policemen were assassinated, and we still have BLM cheering. Note how death is less important than some frat stunt?

Anonymous H0bG0b November 22, 2016 10:11 AM  

"What matters is the ability to win sympathy from normies."

That's still a long way off. If there are any normies who have an relatively open mind and are perhaps already that way inclined, they'll see through the nazi shit and come on board anyway. Everyone else needs to be trolled and shocked into submission.

Making the Alt Right mainstream friendly is not likely to happen anytime soon, never mind convincing people of white nationalism. Destroying MSM, political correctness, feminism, multiculturism and the like however are much more achieveable if the Alt-Right stays on attack mode while Trump does his thing.

Blogger wreckage November 22, 2016 10:13 AM  

Saying or writing something dumb is very different from a dumb visual. That goes straight to people's guts, and makes for the perfect lie as well, because the image is, to the human mind, irrefutable truth.

Beyond that, it seems to me the success of the alt-right has been "approaching formlessness" (one interpretation of Sun Tzu).

Even Vox' "What is the Alt Right" seems to me to be too concrete, but that's just IMO; and of course salting the document with rhetorical brinksmanship keeps parasites away.

But again, I'm just a nationalist, so I'm talking from outside the room really.

Blogger VD November 22, 2016 10:16 AM  

Too many of Spencer's crowd have been concerned with "credit" for being the OG alt-right.

It's amusing, and more than a little ironic, that they quite clearly don't even know their Nazi history.

This is a perfect mirror image of the hand-wringing that the cucks expressed at every turn regarding Trump and how he was supposedly shaming the Republican Party and bringing the Republican Party and its downballot into disrepute.

No, it's not. Trump made a few stupid mistakes during the campaign too, and was correctly criticized for them. No one was wringing their hands then, nor are we now.

What ever happened to "The Alt-Right doesn't care what you think of it"?

We don't. That doesn't mean we think it would be wise for Richard to go and expose himself to little girls in front of the cameras either. What he did wasn't quite that stupid, but it certainly wasn't smart.

What you're saying sounds to me like "it doesn't matter if the Left calls us racists because we're really not racists -- the Democrats are the real racists!"

"Sounds to me...." Shut up, gamma. Nobody cares what you dream up in your head.

FFS, the Alt-Right is now willing to disown one of its writers because he did something that causes the MSM to call us Nazis? When they already call us Nazis?

Telling someone they did something stupid is not disowning them. For crying out loud, when I did something stupid, Milo didn't hesitate to let me know. That's not disowning, that's assistance.

Blogger VD November 22, 2016 10:17 AM  

Everyone else needs to be trolled and shocked into submission.

No one is shocked by buffoonery and taking the media bait. The media WANTS people to take it for a reason. You're not going to beat them by doing it.

Blogger Nate November 22, 2016 10:18 AM  

"The guy who said Cernovich is trying to play Buckley to Spencer's John Birch Society got it exactly right"

I don't know what Cernovich said beyond vox's post. I pay literally 0 attention to mike cernovich. None of this is based on Mike. Its looking at what Spencer did objectively.

And like it or not... as the examples of CNN using his own words to rape him on air for several minutes... and in the example of the quote that was used to make it appear he embraced homosexuality... Spencer has a bad habit of not seeing how what he says and does will be used against him... and against the movement.

Blogger The Gray Man November 22, 2016 10:20 AM  

Vox calling it like it is. Good job. This explanation is another showing of why you are on the cutting edge of the alt-right and where we are headed or should be headed.

Nothing annoys me more than the little nerd idiots that can't see past the end of their nose.

They hear "we don't care what you think" and assume, like Vox used in an example of above, that they can go pull their pants off in front of little girls. No, we don't advocate that. Because that isn't alt-right, that's everything we're against.

Anonymous JI November 22, 2016 10:21 AM  

Ironsides: I don't think Vox is saying it's a "bridge too far"; I think he's just saying that an attempt to pimp the media like that might backfire. My first impulse would be to do the same type of thing just to piss off the media, and I get a chuckle out of it, but although it's certainly a fun thing to do, it might not be a good tactical move. Just my .02, I haven't read the entire thread, disregard me if I've totally misunderstood the situation.

Blogger Student in Blue November 22, 2016 10:22 AM  

In case it isn't clear, the MSM's goal is to dehumanize and depopularize Trump so much that either he gets assassinated or impeached on some flimsy excuse.

It's important not to help them on their quest.

Blogger DrAndroSF November 22, 2016 10:23 AM  

H0bG0b wrote:I was under the impression that the Alt-Right, neither cared what people thought of them, nor how things looked.

The God-Emperor is already the next Hitler according to the media, after all, he was "endorsed by the KKK". I don't see what difference this going to make.

Richard should stop doing interviews with the Old Media though, and treat them with the contempt they deserve.


Point well made. And how many of the keyboard consultants on here have done anything in the real world remotely Mr Spencer. Righties seem never to get it about "No enemies on the Right."

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 22, 2016 10:26 AM  

Me thinks our OODA loop has been compromised. Two things, first is the undeclared but real war of BLM versus the cops and second some real juicy troll bait is the virulently anti-white actor from Hamilton and his rape fetish for white women. Damn that is fish in the barrel easy but a man and some drunks wanted some attention and so here we are, biting one another's asses.

Anonymous VFM #6306 November 22, 2016 10:26 AM  

Spencer isn't an enemy. He behaved without discipline. The fact you don't know the difference DrAndroSF is why you aren't tracking.

Blogger praetorian November 22, 2016 10:26 AM  

Not that I agree with your assessment... but you're inadvertantly proving our point. Which is that Richard says thinks without realizing how they will be used against him.

That is clearly the case. If he had said "Hail Kek" it's a totally different conversation.

But I'm still gonna wait and see before I get too panty-bunched. Too many things have gone the opposite of what I would expect in the current year for me to be sure how this is going to play out.

Blogger Nate November 22, 2016 10:27 AM  

"In case it isn't clear, the MSM's goal is to dehumanize and depopularize Trump so much that either he gets assassinated or impeached on some flimsy excuse.

It's important not to help them on their quest."

yep.

Agree and Amplify won't work with "nazi" when it comes to guys like Spencer... because he really is a nazi.

Anonymous Ironsides November 22, 2016 10:28 AM  

Well, do you have an explanation for why "we're not really racists" was a bad idea and "we're not really Nazis" is a good idea? What is the precise difference between getting in a panic over being called a racist, and getting in a panic over being called a Nazi? Each one is basically just a lever allowing the Leftists to coerce their opponents into accepting their control.

If there is a genuine difference it would be interesting to hear it. There may very well be. But it is not readily apparent to this gamma, moron, or whatever else you want to call me.

Perhaps supplying a cogent reason, rather than just saying some equivalent of "knuckling under to being called a racist is bad strategy but knuckling under to being called a Nazi is good strategy," it might serve as actually CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, rather than a baffling contradiction.

As for the disown part, it doesn't really matter. Why waste energy on Richard Spencer rather than just ignoring him and going for the jugular of the Leftists? This whole thing is reminiscent of the Alt-White going apeshit about Milo a while back because he's a queer or a Jew or whatever. Talk about a waste of ammunition. Keep the guns pointed at the enemy and quit worrying about the "style" of the guy in the next battery, seems like a more fruitful approach.

Anonymous Elipe November 22, 2016 10:28 AM  

I don't get all the kvetching over this. I mean, the MSM had been getting worked up into a tizzy over smug Nazi cartoon frogs being the portent of a Holocaust 2.0.

They were afraid of fucking CARTOON FROGS.

This is a time to not play defensively on behalf of Richard spilling his spaghetti, but to go full mockery and contempt. Laugh at them because they're getting worked up about what they call a fringe that won't accomplish anything. Laugh at them because they wet their beds over fucking Internet cartoon frogs. Laugh at them for having such tiny penises when Trump de-pantsed them yesterday for everybody to see. Remind everybody that our PRESIDENT-ELECT called CNN a bunch of liars.

Then also slam the MSM for crying about people peacefully exercising their right to free speech while not covering more important things like leftists VIOLENTLY rioting and generally being uncivilized savages.

Attack, attack, attack the MSM. No mercy.

Anonymous dingo_twitter November 22, 2016 10:29 AM  

Richard Spencer got relatively good press (and photo shoots) because he was the articulate, fashy looking all-American boy that all the shitlib journalists wanted to have forbidden sex with. In 15 years in the movement, I have never seen such soft condemnation of someone advocating white identity politics.

I really think this media bubble he is in, along with Trumps win, has made him a little overconfident and complacent.

He was getting a tonne of pressure from TRS, weev/anglin and pol for not disavowing Milo. Maybe this has had some effect on him going more hardline and trollish too.

Or maybe none of this matters in the short-news-cycle world we are in.

Blogger Jack Ward November 22, 2016 10:30 AM  

I think Mr. Spencer did no good service to the Alt Right or Alt West this. Perhaps he really is a tool and covert enemy.
Anyway, he lost my vote. Why give our enemies any ammo at all?

Blogger praetorian November 22, 2016 10:31 AM  

Or maybe none of this matters in the short-news-cycle world we are in.

It's all misdirection, drawing the media away from the true leader of the alt-right: Tila Tequila.

Blogger Student in Blue November 22, 2016 10:31 AM  

Point well made.

Most people DO NOT BELIEVE TRUMP IS HITLER. Furthermore, affirming that the media were RIGHT about that is just going to lead people back into trusting the Old Media.

And how many of the keyboard consultants on here have done anything in the real world remotely Mr Spencer.

That's not an actual sentence. And given how unsuccessful Mr. Spencer was before other people came in and made Alt-Right a thing... I don't think Mr. Spencer is the person we ought to ape.

Righties seem never to get it about "No enemies on the Right."

Again, criticism is not "punching right", nor is it "making enemies". Only delicate pansies think that criticism means "omg you hate meee!".

And believe me, you'd know it if we were punching right. Or do you want to start this yet again?

Blogger Student in Blue November 22, 2016 10:39 AM  

@Elipe
I don't get all the kvetching over this.
Honestly there's only so much kvetching because the people being criticized is doubling down and trying to accuse anyone not 100% in favor of being a cuck, a (((plant))), or some other form of No True Scotsman.

If there wasn't such a shrill doubling down we would've wound up agreeing to disagree, and the whole thing would've blown over in hours, only popping up in future times as "hey remember that one time when they tried doing the nazi salute on camera?"

But no, we have the Alt-White crying out in pain as they strike us. Hmm.

Attack, attack, attack the MSM. No mercy.
Agreed.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) November 22, 2016 10:39 AM  

Well, do you have an explanation for why "we're not really racists" was a bad idea and "we're not really Nazis" is a good idea? What is the precise difference between getting in a panic over being called a racist, and getting in a panic over being called a Nazi?

Because lots of people have granddaddies that killed Nazis.

Blogger Cail Corishev November 22, 2016 10:39 AM  

Well, do you have an explanation for why "we're not really racists" was a bad idea and "we're not really Nazis" is a good idea?

We're not saying, "We're not really Nazis." We're saying it'd be best if people on our side didn't go around saying, "We are really Nazis." That's the difference.

We don't go burning crosses on black people's lawns either. That's not the same thing as saying, "We're not racist."

Blogger SteelPalm November 22, 2016 10:40 AM  

What is the precise difference between getting in a panic over being called a racist, and getting in a panic over being called a Nazi?

Because, idiot, one is a vague, stupid term overused to irrelevance, and another is a group that started a war that killed 80 million people worldwide, 55 million of whom were white, largely destroyed Europe, and dealt a serious blow to white Western civilization.

Just because you're too fucking stupid to learn basic history or have no family members that fought or suffered through World War 2 doesn't mean that's true of everyone.

Blogger Hostem Populi November 22, 2016 10:45 AM  

I've noticed that this entire drama has played out as two groups, the "Alt West" and "Alt White", seeking to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory because they only agree with each other 90% of the time.

Cernovich's critique of Spencer was awful, unless he was just intentionally trying to start a shit storm. No matter what Spencer said at the conference, or did, the (((media))) was going to paint him as a Nazi no matter what. Perhaps the arm gesture was an unforced error on Spencer's part, but it's not evidence that he's a shill working for the enemy.

Sadly, because Cernovich conflated Spencer with a very real concern, which is the problem of dealing with federal double agents in our midst, no one is going to pay attention to the warning as effectively as they might have. It wound up just reopening an old feud among the Alt Right, and giving the emotionally incontinent on both sides, Alt White and Alt West, an opportunity to sperg and signal.

Anonymous Ironsides November 22, 2016 10:46 AM  

Josh (the gayest thing here) wrote:Well, do you have an explanation for why "we're not really racists" was a bad idea and "we're not really Nazis" is a good idea? What is the precise difference between getting in a panic over being called a racist, and getting in a panic over being called a Nazi?

Because lots of people have granddaddies that killed Nazis.


Well, that makes some sense. The only problem is that they already think the Alt-Right are Nazis. This seems like rather a Catch 22 situation that can be answered in only way. CHARGE!

(For the record, Spencer snapping out a Nazi salute seems kind of ... pointless. But wasting time criticizing it also seems kind of pointless. Put the boot to some Leftist faces instead seems like a sounder strategy. But it doesn't really matter, everything is hyper-accelerated nowadays and both the populace AND the Alt-Right will probably have forgotten this in another day or two when some other bit of information displaces it.)

Blogger Deadmau5 Patton November 22, 2016 10:47 AM  

@129 We've been called nazis from day one. Literally not one single thing has changed except for mike cernovich being jewy and stirring shit up, which was to be expected.

Blogger Laguna Beach Fogey November 22, 2016 10:48 AM  

Cernovich is jealous that Spencer is getting serious media attention.

He won't admit it, but that's what's behind his meltdown.

Blogger Nate November 22, 2016 10:51 AM  

"
(For the record, Spencer snapping out a Nazi salute seems kind of ... pointless. But wasting time criticizing it also seems kind of pointless..."

That's why, at least for those of us here... its not about the salute specificly. Its about his tone deaf habit. he's like a boxer who keeps dropping his gloves.

We're just saying, "if you keep dropping your gloves like that you're going to get KTFO."

That doesn't mean we want him to get KTFO. It means we're trying to help him.

Blogger Hostem Populi November 22, 2016 10:51 AM  

@133 That explains what happened fairly well. I wouldn't say it was a meltdown though. Cernovich knew what he was doing when he made that Periscope, and got the result he wanted.

Blogger Nate November 22, 2016 10:52 AM  

"Cernovich is jealous that Spencer is getting serious media attention.'

This would seem more plausible to me if Cernovich wasn't getting tons of attention himself. is not like mike is old news.

Anonymous peppermint November 22, 2016 10:52 AM  

Couldn't he have waited until Black History Month to discuss making Blacks history? This is going to make Trump's cabinet confirmations harder, and the culture war Spencer needs to fight over the next few years can wait literally two months.

As of right now, cuck-right double agent Milo is better for the movement than Spencer.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents November 22, 2016 10:52 AM  

"Get your side of the story out" from a journo-list is right up there with "we won't use your personal data / our email lists are confidential". Come on, this is lying at a very basic level, like Jehovah's Witnesses at the front door who "just want to talk".

LARPing as a Nazi worked for Mel Brooks. It doesn't work for anyone else. Spencer was stupid. He has been told that, and needs to avoid this form of stupidity from now on.

Anonymous H0bG0b November 22, 2016 10:52 AM  

Student in Blue wrote:Point well made.

Most people DO NOT BELIEVE TRUMP IS HITLER. Furthermore, affirming that the media were RIGHT about that is just going to lead people back into trusting the Old Media.


Why is this likely to make any difference to people's perception of Trump now? MSM have already cried wolf so many times. They show a bunch of Nazi looking guys who like Trump? So what? Why are people going to suddenly start believing MSM again?

VD wrote:Everyone else needs to be trolled and shocked into submission.

No one is shocked by buffoonery and taking the media bait. The media WANTS people to take it for a reason. You're not going to beat them by doing it.


Perhaps not, but it's not likely to hurt at this point. And what one might call "taking the bait", you might could also call it "taking the piss". Still, I think it's better to simply ignore MSM altogether. Don't try and play by their rules, just don't play at all.

Anonymous Laconophile November 22, 2016 10:54 AM  

We need to disown Trump. He is making us all look bad. He's playing right into the media's hands by saying these things that can be taken out of context and used against us. Trump might even be a Hillary plant, controlled opposition.

Oops, did I say Trump? I meant Richard Spencer,

Anonymous Ironsides November 22, 2016 10:55 AM  

SteelPalm wrote:What is the precise difference between getting in a panic over being called a racist, and getting in a panic over being called a Nazi?

Because, idiot, one is a vague, stupid term overused to irrelevance, and another is a group that started a war that killed 80 million people worldwide, 55 million of whom were white, largely destroyed Europe, and dealt a serious blow to white Western civilization.

Just because you're too fucking stupid to learn basic history or have no family members that fought or suffered through World War 2 doesn't mean that's true of everyone.


Well, since you decided to make it personal, my paternal grandfather was in the U.S. Navy in WW2. (My maternal grandfather was a draft dodger and successful escaped entry into the war, whatever that's worth for or against him).

I also have written a number of short ebooks on World War II and I've been a history nut for about 30 years of my life.

Your comments are quite amusing due to their utter ignorance, arrogant assumptions, and your inability to answer a genuine question about tactics with anything but personal spite.

But again, they already think we're Nazis. They call us Nazis. They call Trump "literally Hitler." What on Earth is all the panting and heaving over Spencer in aid of? What's a Nazi salute more or less

I don't think he accomplished anything with the salute. But since everyone right of Milo is already wearing the swastika in the MSM's view, who cares about it? It's utterly moot in a world that already views the Alt-Right as Nazis and paints them as such constantly. What's all the fuss about?

Blogger The Deuce November 22, 2016 10:55 AM  

Some of you seem to think that the Nazi trolling on Twitter and this are the same basic strategy. They're not. The Twitter trolling is anonymous for starters, and it's typically aimed AT the journalists you're trying to trigger. When journalists write articles whining about it, they just look like delusional crybabies to everyone else for taking Internet memes so seriously. It's a way of demoralizing them over time, as their attempts to play victim merely increase the trolling instead.

This is different. When journalists go to a conference in the nation's capitol, of a group they want to portray as Nazis, and that group responds by portraying ITSELF as Nazis even as a joke, that's like Christmas for the journalists. That gives them real-life names and faces and leaders they can use as ammunition for their propaganda efforts. It doesn't desensitize anyone or move the Overton window any more than yet another story about the Westboro Baptists' antics does.

The press shouldn't have been invited in the first place, and those that tried to show up anyhow should've been insulted and jeered at, not provided grist for their narrative.

Blogger JACIII November 22, 2016 10:58 AM  

Some folks, you just can't reach.

It's obvious the altwhite thinks the day has finally come when the staggering rhetorical power of a non-ironic nazi salute by the self-declared leader of the altright will FINALLY wake everyone up to altwhite ascendency.

Fucking rubes.

Anonymous Elijah Rhodes November 22, 2016 10:59 AM  

Richard Spencer got relatively good press (and photo shoots) because he was the articulate, fashy looking all-American boy that all the shitlib journalists wanted to have forbidden sex with. In 15 years in the movement, I have never seen such soft condemnation of someone advocating white identity politics.

Indeed. And this is exactly why he's being criticized. He is uniquely positioned in ways that few are.

The way you move an overton window is to press against its edge. As the window moves, great swaths of society move with it. If you press too hard and end up outside the window's edge you end up hurting your cause because the population is not ready to be moved that far. In one election cycle we've seen the window move drastically to the right. However, that window still has boundaries.

It's one thing for some edgy sperg to bust out a Nazi meme for shock value, but if Richard Spencer doesn't recognize that ending a speech attended by the media with cameras rolling with "Hail Trump. Hail our people. Hail victory." is tactically moronic then he deserves to be marginalized.

The enemy is going to shoot at you, why load his gun?

Bingo.

Blogger Student in Blue November 22, 2016 11:00 AM  

@Hostem Populi
Cernovich's critique of Spencer was awful, unless he was just intentionally trying to start a shit storm. No matter what Spencer said at the conference, or did, the (((media))) was going to paint him as a Nazi no matter what. Perhaps the arm gesture was an unforced error on Spencer's part, but it's not evidence that he's a shill working for the enemy.

Cernovich's critique was that he was possibly controlled opposition. Controlled opposition is not the same as being a shill or a plant. Spencer can also simply be a "useful idiot".

They can simply play up to his desires that the media is finally listening to him, while they carve out anything worthwhile he's saying so they can provide a hack hitjob. The Atlantic is bankrolling the damn documentary, they're going to have editorial control -- there's no way this is going to be anything but bad news.

It's not just federal double agents, but being useful idiots for the media by trying to go on THEIR turf and "win". It didn't work for Vox, it didn't work for Roosh, it's never worked for Spencer, over and over people have tried and gotten burnt. Only very rare people can ride that beast, and even then they don't come out smelling like roses.

And I don't think Spencer is one of those people.

Blogger Daniel November 22, 2016 11:01 AM  

As a bald man i'm triggered

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) November 22, 2016 11:02 AM  

It's obvious the altwhite thinks the day has finally come when the staggering rhetorical power of a non-ironic nazi salute by the self-declared leader of the altright will FINALLY wake everyone up to altwhite ascendency.

And once that happens they will get all the girls...

Blogger Deadmau5 Patton November 22, 2016 11:02 AM  

@142 A lot of people who were LARPing online weren't anonymous though, and Richard Spencer was called a Nazi a million times before this event. Only now, instead of the media calling him a Nazi, the alt lite is,too. That's the only difference here. Previously the media called us Nazis and told us to change our ways, and now "our" side does so because this time will be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Blogger Hostem Populi November 22, 2016 11:02 AM  

@141 It's an excuse to have a nice, counter-productive flame war. It has no point other than that.

Blogger Nate November 22, 2016 11:03 AM  

I know there is nothing that can be done about it at this point... but the term "Overton Window" is on track to be more misused and misunderstood than "Third World".

Blogger Jakob Niedzwiecki November 22, 2016 11:06 AM  

There's a big difference between you and Trump, though: he's smart.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) November 22, 2016 11:07 AM  

but the term "Overton Window" is on track to be more misused and misunderstood than "Third World".

Other items on that list:
OODA loop
Cloward Piven
Alinsky tactics
Dunning Kruger

Blogger JACIII November 22, 2016 11:09 AM  

Nate wrote:I know there is nothing that can be done about it at this point... but the term "Overton Window" is on track to be more misused and misunderstood than "Third World".

Pearls before swine.

Blogger VD November 22, 2016 11:13 AM  

Well, do you have an explanation for why "we're not really racists" was a bad idea and "we're not really Nazis" is a good idea?

Yes, BOTH are bad ideas. It would be a bad idea to burn a cross on camera. It would be a bad idea to throw Nazi salutes on camera. It would be a bad idea to expose yourself to little children on camera. Doing those things is not the same as saying "we're not really X".

What is the precise difference between getting in a panic over being called a racist, and getting in a panic over being called a Nazi?

No one is in a panic over anything. We'd simply like Richard to stop beclowning himself and taking the media bait. This isn't going to hurt the Alt-Right at all, but it has the potential to sideline Richard if he insists on keeping it up.

There is a very simple test. If it was a great strategic move, Richard will keep doing that sort of thing and we'll see him grow in stature and popularity. If it was a stupid thing to do, he'll never do it again.

Anonymous Casey November 22, 2016 11:15 AM  

Richard Spencer lacks the charisma to be an effective leader. I don't think his judgement is top drawer, either.

He's trying to assume a role that he's not suited for.

Blogger Student in Blue November 22, 2016 11:15 AM  

@H0bG0b
Why is this likely to make any difference to people's perception of Trump now? MSM have already cried wolf so many times. They show a bunch of Nazi looking guys who like Trump? So what? Why are people going to suddenly start believing MSM again?

Like I said. If the media suddenly were perceived as being correct, that there actually ARE a sizable number of Trump supporters who are literal nazis, then that just snaps people back into being able to trust things that the Old Media says.

Every other instance where the media has tried to link Trump to nazis has been either false flag (remember when CNN planted one of their own cameramen as an angry Pro-Trump supporter?) or just anonymous people on Twitter.

In other words, you're giving legitimacy to the Old Media both by inviting them, and by giving visual proof to the narrative they're trying really hard to push.

You don't see a problem because you accept the label. The vast majority of the people who backed Trump don't, however, and will recoil if they see visual proof.

If the media was fair and unbiased they'd properly report that "This group is literal nazis. They don't speak for all of Trump's supporters, they aren't the majority of Trump's supporters, nor is Trump a nazi."

But you and I know they won't do that. They'll take the easy ammo you give them and make free shots on us.

Just stop inviting the media. Stop inviting the media.

Trying to shock people doesn't shift the Overton Window either. It just lands you outside of it.

Blogger VD November 22, 2016 11:17 AM  

What's a Nazi salute more or less

The difference between being a relevant intellectual and a dancing monkey that everyone ignores. If Richard wants a career as a media clown, I suspect the media will happily accommodate him. But I don't pay attention to media clowns, nor do many of my readers.

Anonymous Scintan November 22, 2016 11:17 AM  

DrAndroSF wrote:H0bG0b wrote:I was under the impression that the Alt-Right, neither cared what people thought of them, nor how things looked.

The God-Emperor is already the next Hitler according to the media, after all, he was "endorsed by the KKK". I don't see what difference this going to make.

Richard should stop doing interviews with the Old Media though, and treat them with the contempt they deserve.


Point well made. And how many of the keyboard consultants on here have done anything in the real world remotely Mr Spencer. Righties seem never to get it about "No enemies on the Right."


Stupidity is everyone's enemy.

Blogger Nate November 22, 2016 11:20 AM  

" If it was a stupid thing to do, he'll never do it again."

or... he'll keep doing it and crash and burn. Lets face it this is not the first time he's made this sort of error.

Blogger Student in Blue November 22, 2016 11:27 AM  

@Deadmau5 Patton
A lot of people who were LARPing online weren't anonymous though, and Richard Spencer was called a Nazi a million times before this event. Only now, instead of the media calling him a Nazi, the alt lite is,too.

No, you're calling yourselves Nazis. Alt-Lite is just calling this a really dumb move.

Previously the media called us Nazis and told us to change our ways, and now "our" side does so because this time will be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

No, we're just telling you you're doing dumb things. You're not the straw that breaks the camel's back, but you're not really accomplishing anything beneficial either.

Think about it this way: Assuming it's true that we're trying to point and shriek at you... The Alt-Lite called you Nazis before they became Alt-Lite. Why are you getting upset about it this time?

Anonymous Gen. Kong November 22, 2016 11:28 AM  

I agree with Vox and Cernovich here. Spencer does not get it: The (((media))) is our mortal enemy. They are not to be talked to or negotiated with in any way - except by the very few who can deal with their lying methods. Our objective should be very focused on seeing that they are destroyed completely and rendered obsolete. Nobody with half a brain should pay any attention to what they have to say about anything - they are so completely dishonest and filled wth lies upon lies.

Should it come down to it, we should not even hesitate a second to empty a magazine into the face of any one of them at point blank range even if their hands are in the air for surrender. They are irredeemably evil and deserve no mercy or quarter of any kind - only the sword of immediate judgement. Hand them over to the Lord. They and the degenerate corporate criminals who own them need to be burned to the ground. Every single time I see a sob story of some 'poor jourmalist' who was killed by a Musloid over in trashcanistan, I cheer out loud. They absolutely had it coming - every single one. Another one bites the dust for a well-earned dirt-nap.

Anonymous Ironsides November 22, 2016 11:29 AM  

VD wrote:Well, do you have an explanation for why "we're not really racists" was a bad idea and "we're not really Nazis" is a good idea?

Yes, BOTH are bad ideas. It would be a bad idea to burn a cross on camera. It would be a bad idea to throw Nazi salutes on camera. It would be a bad idea to expose yourself to little children on camera. Doing those things is not the same as saying "we're not really X".


Thank you. So basically, it comes down to that it's workable to say, for instance, that blacks' low IQ, poor impulse control, and tendency towards violence makes them a horrible fit for modern white culture, and that separation is the only way to avoid a spiraling increase of strife and misery -- and unworkable to deliberately use the gestures of past political movements that already have the smell of defeat about them.

That actually ... makes a lot of sense. I was wrong in assuming that there was no difference there; there's a difference between advocating racial and nationalist positions that have also been endorsed by past racial/nationalist movements, and actually using their failed advertising slogans (so to speak), which I wasn't seeing. Thank you for clearing that up. Hopefully that will be useful to other possible commentators in the future -- who will (again hopefully) see that when it comes to ideas, correlation =/= Nazification, or some such.

VD wrote: What is the precise difference between getting in a panic over being called a racist, and getting in a panic over being called a Nazi?

No one is in a panic over anything. We'd simply like Richard to stop beclowning himself and taking the media bait. This isn't going to hurt the Alt-Right at all, but it has the potential to sideline Richard if he insists on keeping it up.

There is a very simple test. If it was a great strategic move, Richard will keep doing that sort of thing and we'll see him grow in stature and popularity. If it was a stupid thing to do, he'll never do it again.


The use of "beclowning" here is quite hilarious. And that's a good point too; even if the salute does absolutely nothing (i.e. they already call us Nazis and Trump Hitler, so it's pretty much a big wash), it was at best superfluous. If something is superfluous at best and harmful at worst, then it's a poor idea doing it. Spencer should dial that back not because we care, but because the best case scenario is that it does nothing at all, and futile gestures are a waste of time (more so if there's a potential to backfire). If you're going to do something shocking, it should be with at least a chance of a real gain in the struggle, rather than best-case being a wash.

Again, thanks -- my initial position was wrong, though I think the overall exchange is useful in order to provide clarification that might assist other Alt-Righters in grasping the matter.

Blogger Student in Blue November 22, 2016 11:30 AM  

And to make it clearer, by "YOU'RE DOING DUMB THINGS" I don't mean 'renounce being a nazi immediately and never bring it up again', like the media does.

I mean you're doing stuff that actively impedes your own goals.

Blogger allyn71 November 22, 2016 11:30 AM  

Did all these guys chew on lead paint as babies? Is that their problem? This isn't hard.

#altretard

Blogger EIA November 22, 2016 11:36 AM  

@wreckage - visual is right. One noticeable segment right after the Roman salute was this very fat guy stands up and walks toward the camera. I am sure it was included deliberately. If you are going to LARP Nazi, you need to look the part - Waffen SS or those Hammer guys in the PF Wall movie. Otherwise you look silly.

It's a mistake to let the MSM control the camera and the editing room for something like that (if you are going to do it at all).

Anonymous SebastianX1/9 November 22, 2016 11:37 AM  

I have followed this for 10 years and contributed financially to early Alt Right efforts at the time of Taki and Larry Auster. The real issue is that Richard is high on himself. This is what happens when you live an uber-comfortable life with no adversity - you begin to believe your own BS. Like Daniel Hannon but unlike Nigel Farage, Richard is a kept little prince who has never had to work or do much of anything, and could afford to enter politics full-time at an early age. This is not a criticism (I'm hardly working class), but it does leave one vulnerable to self-deception. Organizing and politicking does not give you an objective rank of your status, so you end up without real gravitas (think Obama the community organizer, or try-hard Hannon who makes up for his neutered existence with big dictionary words). Turns out building a successful small business, or making tons of $ trading, or winning the Monaco Grand Prix may be more difficult than writing little articles on Carl Schmitt and asking for $ to put up dorm-room quality film reviews *(Unlike Jay Dyer, who's excellent at it without the posturing).

Richard is actually a conscientious frat boy playing Nazi ideologue with Daddy's money. I like his persona and his work, but from an adult perspective, there is a big element of safe preppy BS to all of this. Grit cannot be faked. Like so many lefties, being a professional advocate is to never really leave college; to live in a little polite bubble world of conferences. It's not hard being the big man in a room when the others are wearing bow ties and little white beards. Come out, come out to the real world, say even Wall Street, and tell me how impressed people are with your little ideas.

And BTW, the element of knee-jerk pro-German sentiment, across the board, has been a staple of American WN since the 1980s. Everything northern is good; southern Europe sucks; Prussia is better than France; Churchill started the war; Poles and Slavs are inferior, etc...I've been hearing some version of it since the days of Minor Threat. Please don't tell me those were "Roman" salutes.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 22, 2016 11:38 AM  

This was still bad form by Cernovich. Learn from it and keep your mouth shut next time.

Blogger Deadmau5 Patton November 22, 2016 11:40 AM  

@160
"No, you're calling yourselves Nazis." as we have been doing both implicitly and explicitly for a very long time. Literally,not a thing has changed.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 22, 2016 11:41 AM  

Richard has failed to learn the lesson of #GamerGate and the principles of 4GW. He wants to be the media-anointed leader of the Alt-Right because he believes, wrongly, that this will help him achieve his objectives.

That is a good assessment IMO. Spencer is calculating but he lacks sense, so overstimulation is going to make him stupid.

Blogger DemonicProfessorEl November 22, 2016 11:43 AM  

I may have read Cernovich's article quickly, but I thought he implied some of the attendees were plants manipulating Spencer, rather than Spencer being a federal employee.

That, of course, is something we have to be vigilant of anyway - Leftist plants and informants. I agree with Cernovich's supsicions (the Left infiltrates better than anyone else), but not his assessment of Spencer.

But conflationary hits by the Left/MSM tend to backfire anyway...

Blogger Lew Rand November 22, 2016 11:44 AM  

#148: Well if you truly believe you are Nazis, then why stop at a salute? Or is it all about you and only you at this point?

Luckily, I've already introduced the concept of alt-retard from the last pissing fight so if people I'm trying to red pill get in arms about this, I can use that.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 22, 2016 11:44 AM  

This is the problem with not knowing your mental limits, you run smack into them when the stakes are high.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 22, 2016 11:46 AM  

The rest of you dumbasses need to get off your high horses until the wall is actually built.

Blogger DemonicProfessorEl November 22, 2016 11:54 AM  

Student in Blue wrote:Cernovich's critique was that he was possibly controlled opposition. Controlled opposition is not the same as being a shill or a plant. Spencer can also simply be a "useful idiot".

They can simply play up to his desires that the media is finally listening to him, while they carve out anything worthwhile he's saying so they can provide a hack hitjob. The Atlantic is bankrolling the damn documentary, they're going to have editorial control -- there's no way this is going to be anything but bad news.


Pretty much my thought on Cernovich's piece. He was raising a concern about the media less than Spencer, or at least it comes off that way.

I will note that the strength of the Alt-Right in general is its decentralized nature. However, since the only people who trust the MSM are SJWs anymore, I doubt any real flack will upset the Alt-Right or even Spencer. Worse things have been spread about anyone here, Molyneux, Vox, Gavin McInnes, Pat Buchanan, and so on.

It's hard to deduce any intentions other than the MSM. They want someone radical to be a face. Since it's hyperbolic rhetoric, it won't really work. Remember the MSM tried to associate Trump with the KKK and David Duke, and that didn't work.

If Spencer starts to come out and claim "I'm the Leader!" then we know where he stands.

Anonymous Gen. Kong November 22, 2016 11:55 AM  

BTW, there was zero coverage by the (((media))) of the antifa thugs and their DC officer dindu enablers who were carrying out acts of physical violence against attendees of Spencer's conference. This is why you give them nothing - apart from a bullet when the time comes.

Blogger Nate November 22, 2016 12:00 PM  

"Again, thanks -- my initial position was wrong, though I think the overall exchange is useful in order to provide clarification that might assist other Alt-Righters in grasping the matter. "

excellent.

Blogger Nate November 22, 2016 12:02 PM  

"This was still bad form by Cernovich. Learn from it and keep your mouth shut next time."

When a friend makes a mistake... you address it with them in private.

The conclusion I draw from this is Cernovich is not Spencer's friend. That's my own conclusion. Don't take it any further than that.

Blogger Student in Blue November 22, 2016 12:04 PM  

@Deadmau5 Patton
as we have been doing both implicitly and explicitly for a very long time. Literally,not a thing has changed.

Then please stop trying to claim we're doing anything but proclaiming it was a bad move. And your fellow Alt-White need to stop labeling anyone mildly critical as a mortal enemy.

Anonymous Down and Out in... November 22, 2016 12:05 PM  

It boils down to a show of poor judgment. Alt-right has only won the first of what will be many, many, necessary battles, and stuff like this makes them look like they've confused victory at Midway with surrender on the Missouri. This is a critical time, when poison-spitting leftists are searching under every rock for ANYTHING to use as ammo, and a large swathe of the country is scratching its head wondering what to think. Showing good judgment at a time like this is critical, and that is exactly what Spencer did not do. Some people are dug in on the hard edge of either side, but a lot of people are wondering "Who can you trust?" -- even the ones who voted for Trump. Doing nonsense like this does not help at all; at best, it's lucky if it gets buried, but I imagine this will be a far bigger story than actual BLM allies actually assassinating actual cops. And that's a problem which really exists, and which needs to be handled expertly. This incident wasn't "expertly."

Blogger Cataline Sergius November 22, 2016 12:21 PM  

Upside, they have beating the Nazi gong so hard that this is having zero impact.

Nobody can take this more seriously than they already are.

Anonymous Crank November 22, 2016 12:26 PM  

I don't even see how this is debatable. It was a foolish move, and I wonder if he'd had a couple drinks before he did it. It will also come back to bite him when he wants to reserve space for future events. Restaurants and other businesses are likely to cancel his event as soon as somebody sends them that picture. Explaining to them that it was simply mischievous trolling isn't going to persuade them.

Blogger Deadmau5 Patton November 22, 2016 12:32 PM  

@178 Student in Blue "Then please stop trying to claim we're doing anything but proclaiming it was a bad move." Ok, but only cause you said please.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 22, 2016 12:38 PM  

Nate wrote:"This was still bad form by Cernovich. Learn from it and keep your mouth shut next time."

When a friend makes a mistake... you address it with them in private.

The conclusion I draw from this is Cernovich is not Spencer's friend. That's my own conclusion. Don't take it any further than that.


So saith the most sensible man on the internet. I remember other opinions you've shared on the subject(s), and (being a bit autistic) the full message here is difficult to discern. I'll mull it over and thank you for the consideration.

Blogger VD November 22, 2016 12:42 PM  

This was still bad form by Cernovich. Learn from it and keep your mouth shut next time.

Mike isn't Alt-Right. He gets attacked by them all the time. What does he care about Spencer? He owes him nothing.

Perhaps if some of the more moronic Alt-Righters didn't attack him, he would be more inclined to leave them alone. But he has no reason to do so.

That's what is so fucking stupid. They scorn all allies, then cry like bitches when someone who is not their ally, someone they regularly take shots at, treats them the same way. Well, you know, that's why you don't take shots at people in the first place!

Blogger VD November 22, 2016 12:53 PM  

Thank you. So basically, it comes down to that it's workable to say, for instance, that blacks' low IQ, poor impulse control, and tendency towards violence makes them a horrible fit for modern white culture, and that separation is the only way to avoid a spiraling increase of strife and misery -- and unworkable to deliberately use the gestures of past political movements that already have the smell of defeat about them.

You're welcome. Yes, in fact, there are other, equally powerful arguments that are beginning to come out of the sciences. Nazis are, quite literally, history's losers. If you want to change the world today, telling everyone that you're going to do so by reviving a long-dead, failed foreign movement just makes you look... irrelevant. And weird.

That actually ... makes a lot of sense. I was wrong in assuming that there was no difference there; there's a difference between advocating racial and nationalist positions that have also been endorsed by past racial/nationalist movements, and actually using their failed advertising slogans (so to speak), which I wasn't seeing.

Here is the thing: YOU GUYS AREN'T NAZIS. I know the Munich Manifesto. I have read about the Nazi election campaigns. You guys have about as much in common with the historical Nazis as the historical Whigs.

What is your position on the Versailles Treaty? On the St. Germain treaty? You don't have one. Because they don't exist anymore. Do you insist that all newspapers be published in German? Or English, for that matter? No.

Blogger Nate November 22, 2016 1:02 PM  

"Mike isn't Alt-Right. He gets attacked by them all the time. What does he care about Spencer? He owes him nothing."

ah. there's a piece of the puzzle I didn't have. Judging by what I happened I rightly concluded that Mike was not Spencer's friend... but I didn't realize how far it all went.

Blogger L. Jagi Lamplighter Wright November 22, 2016 1:16 PM  

I think you're very wise in this, Vox. Part of wisdom is knowing our strengths and weaknesses. Some of us are good at thinking on our feet. Some of us are good at plotting and planning, with time to reflect.

Both are good talents, but we need to know which group we are in. ;-)

Blogger L. Jagi Lamplighter Wright November 22, 2016 1:17 PM  

Er...sorry. I should add, I was responding specifically to your point about speaking to the press.

Blogger Bodo Staron November 22, 2016 1:29 PM  

Here is the speech:
http://www.radixjournal.com/journal/2016/11/21/long-live-the-emperor

This speech is not bad. However, it includes inside jokes and references like God-Emperor. This might be ok if there no media invited. Correct me if I'm wrong, but since the USA was created as a country in opposition to a country with a King, normal Americans might not find the joke in there.


It also includes "Hail Trump. Hail our people. Hail victory." at the end. People showed the Hitler salute. This "brand" is toxic. It's not positive. Millions of people died.

And they don't even seem to realize: The Nazis were not nationalists.

They invaded other countries, they looked down on others like Slavs and called the "Slave race". This is precisely against what the Alt-Right believes in!

Anonymous armenia4ever November 22, 2016 1:32 PM  

There's a difference between not caring what people think - which we don't and throwing out an infamous salute with the entire media watching and waiting for ammo.

It's odd considering I thought Spencer would be more tactical than this - which leads some credibility to Cernovich's thoughts that they might be plants.

Regardless, I'm getting tired of the 1488ers.

What to do with them? The rad left sure as hell doesn't denounce their anarcho communists burning down parts of Portland, the BLM anti-white types, etc.

SO in that case, we tolerate them. They could at least stick to 8chan and pol.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 22, 2016 1:33 PM  

VD wrote:Here is the thing: YOU GUYS AREN'T NAZIS. I know the Munich Manifesto. I have read about the Nazi election campaigns. You guys have about as much in common with the historical Nazis as the historical Whigs.

What is your position on the Versailles Treaty? On the St. Germain treaty? You don't have one. Because they don't exist anymore. Do you insist that all newspapers be published in German? Or English, for that matter? No.


Aspies are aesthetic creatures, not logical creatures. "That which seems good, is good." It's not the politics they (we) care about, it's the outward expression of the fascist ideology. Same as the attraction to My Little Pony.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 22, 2016 1:35 PM  

Or Ayn Rand, for that matter.

Anonymous FlyingHighin2016 November 22, 2016 1:36 PM  

Intuition said similar. Spencer has probably led a relatively coddled life, and he has been surrounded by sycophants for so long that his maturity is stunted. He may be so delusional & naive about his relative status & influence that it is leading him into a kind of martyrdom fantasy. Judging by all the theatrics & red meat thrown, he seems as prone to decadence & recklessness as the very elite he is railing against. In general, you have to discount the status of someone who didn't prove themselves thru hard work & grittiness in the wider world. Another professional politician or think tank hack is the last thing the right needs.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 22, 2016 1:38 PM  

VD wrote:Mike isn't Alt-Right. He gets attacked by them all the time. What does he care about Spencer? He owes him nothing.

Perhaps if some of the more moronic Alt-Righters didn't attack him, he would be more inclined to leave them alone. But he has no reason to do so.

That's what is so fucking stupid. They scorn all allies, then cry like bitches when someone who is not their ally, someone they regularly take shots at, treats them the same way. Well, you know, that's why you don't take shots at people in the first place!


Good explanation. I'll carry it further and say they're crying because discipline via operant conditioning requires an internalization of the association between the punishment and the behavior, and they lack the social intelligence to understand the association.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 22, 2016 1:40 PM  

To make it more concrete, it's like when one of your kids is bawling because the other hit them "for no reason". Yeah, sure, what did you do though?

Blogger Sevron November 22, 2016 1:42 PM  

Wasn't Cernovich rated a top 10 election influencer? Why is AltRetard too dumb to watch what he does and HOW HE DOES IT rather than just take shots at him?

Blogger Bodo Staron November 22, 2016 1:43 PM  

Aeoli Pera wrote:

Aspies are aesthetic creatures, not logical creatures. "That which seems good, is good." It's not the politics they (we) care about, it's the outward expression of the fascist ideology. Same as the attraction to My Little Pony.


Ok, I'm beginning to understand why they just love all those Leni Riefenstahl images. Also the pictures of soldiers and SS and all of that.
Don't the spergs understand that all of this was done for a purpose? Nazis were masters in propaganda.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 22, 2016 1:44 PM  

armenia4ever wrote:It's odd considering I thought Spencer would be more tactical than this - which leads some credibility to Cernovich's thoughts that they might be plants.

Note what I said about overstimulation above. People who live soft lives have lower thresholds for stimulation to produce stupid behavior.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 22, 2016 1:46 PM  

Bodo Staron wrote:Ok, I'm beginning to understand why they just love all those Leni Riefenstahl images. Also the pictures of soldiers and SS and all of that.

Don't the spergs understand that all of this was done for a purpose? Nazis were masters in propaganda.


The extent to which any human behavior is conscious is always an open question. That goes for Nazi propagandists as well as spergs.

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