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Wednesday, November 23, 2016

Great Man vs cliodynamics

A plethora of opinions are being expressed about the future of the Alt-Right in light of the God-Emperor-Ascendant's disavowal. The Left has been emboldened; sensing a chink in the armor, the hasbaresque trolls are already out in force, doing what they always do, proclaiming inevitable victory and the imminent arrival of the worker's paradise rainbow unitopia while attempting to demoralize their enemies by making absurd statements that push the current media Narrative.

But nothing has changed. Richard Spencer didn't create the Alt-Right, he merely provided a nickname for an alternative right that has been around since William F. Buckley purged the John Birch Society. Hillary Clinton didn't speak it into existence. Donald Trump won't speak it out of existence.

Nothing has changed. Conservatism still hasn't conserved anything. The wall still has not been built. The melting pot is still a self-serving immigrant myth. The United States is still a white nation founded by and for whites, as even Slate admitted yesterday. The Alt-Right will remain a potent and rising force throughout the West because the ebb and flow of historical patterns, patterns that scientists and historians developing Structural Dynamic Theory have traced back as far as ancient China and Rome, are still observably playing out through events today.

Consider what Yuji Aida wrote in the Chicago Tribune:
Americans are proud of their melting-pot heritage. But as blacks, Hispanics and Asians gradually come to outnumber whites, that ideal will fade. Like the Soviet Union today, the United States will have to deal with contentious ethnic groups demanding greater autonomy and even political independence. That could prove to be industrial America`s undoing. Many Americans, however, feign ignorance of the problem, partly because of the official ideology. The United States sees itself as a pluralistic, multi-ethnic society with a single national identity based on the principles of freedom and democracy. In fact, discrimination is rampant, but the illusion of equality is vital to maintain a sense of unity. Nonetheless, it is only a matter of time before U.S. minority groups espouse self-determination in some form. When that happens, the country may become ungovernable.
That was written not long after I returned from Japan, in 1991. The failure of the official ideology, the fictional nature of a "national identity" based on principles and propositions rather than genetics and language, was already obvious 25 years ago. As for the irrelevance of the individual actors, consider an article that I wrote back in 2004 about Tolstoy, Prechter, and socionomics:
It is easy to mistake Leo Tolstoy's massive book, "War and Peace," for a novel. It is not. Instead, it would better be considered the world's longest satirical polemic, in the vein of Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal." From beginning to end, Tolstoy's classic work is intended to illustrate the arrogant incompetence of human understanding and the inability of human reason to explain even the simplest of social phenomena.

With unrelenting precision and distinct overtones of mockery, Tolstoy dissects the notion that men dictate events. In one specific example, he examines, with minute detail, the four specific orders Napoleon gave to his army prior to the battle of Borodino:
These dispositions, which are very obscure and confused if one allows oneself to regard the arrangements without religious awe of his genius, related to Napoleon's orders to deal with four points – four different orders. Not one of these was, or could be, carried out ...

And it was not Napoleon who directed the course of the battle, for none of his orders were executed and during the battle he did not know what was going on before him. So the way in which these people killed one another was not decided by Napoleon's will but occurred independently of him, in accord with the will of hundreds of thousands of people who took part in the common action. It only seemed to Napoleon that it all took place by his will.
In the second epilogue, Tolstoy goes on to brutally abuse both specific and universal historians, demonstrating how their explanations of various historical events is not only inevitably contradictory, but often constructed on base premises that do not withstand a moment's reflection. Tolstoy further underlines his case by the choice of the two heroes of the novel within the polemic, Pierre and Kutozov, both of whom achieve their respective dream of inner peace and Russian victory only by submitting their will to the great forces moving around them.
This is not, as one skeptic rather amusingly put it, "a reliance upon the inevitable forces of history and the methods of material production". (That did make me laugh; though.) Marxism is the groundless and unquantifiable application of incorrect economic theory to the future. Cliodynamics is observing what has already happened and is happening today, then drawing rational conclusions about how the various patterns and cycles observed will play out next. At the moment, I'm reading Ultrasociety, by Peter Turchin. It is an excellent book, and although its primary subject matter is largely tangential to these patterns of history, a passage I read yesterday struck me as entirely apt.
There is a pattern that we see recurring throughout history, when a successful empire expands its borders so far that it becomes the biggest kid on the block. When survival is no longer at stake, selfish elites and other special interest groups capture the political agenda. The spirit that “we are all in the same boat” disappears and is replaced by a “winner take all” mentality. As the elites enrich themselves, the rest of the population is increasingly impoverished. Rampant inequality of wealth further corrodes cooperation. Beyond a certain point a formerly great empire becomes so dysfunctional that smaller, more cohesive neighbors begin tearing it apart. Eventually the capacity for cooperation declines to such a low level that barbarians can strike at the very heart of the empire without encountering significant resistance. But barbarians at the gate are not the real cause of imperial collapse. They are a consequence of the failure to sustain social cooperation.
There is more, considerably more, than this restatement of what John Glubb and Edward Gibbon and Polybius, and other historians have noted would appear to indicate. But the point is, the eventual significance of these events will be determined by how well they flow with the historical patterns, not the opinion of any one individual, not even the God-Emperor Ascendant himself. The fate of the Alt Right does not depend upon one of its media-christened figureheads, but upon its willingness to align itself with the observable patterns of history as they play out.

Because, as we know, our enemies are in the apocryphal position of King Canute, desperately attempting to hold back the waves with their false narratives and outdated theories about the way the world works. But everywhere, their narratives are failing. I just received translations of the 16 Points of the Alt-Right into Mandarin and Romanian last night; the Romanian translator added:
I recently got in contact with the ideas of alt-right. The logic behind it is clear since I am from Romania and I myself seen what happened to my country, even after it entered the European Union. It lost all its industries, even the strategic ones. Also, we lost much of the workforce to other countries. As alt-right correctly points "free trade" requires completely destroying the country. 
Being correct, and providing an operative, accurate predictive model upon which people can rely, will trump monkeys dancing in front of the media every single time.

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131 Comments:

Anonymous VFMUltra November 23, 2016 4:07 AM  

Thank you Vox. This is a much needed post at this very moment.

Blogger The Kurgan November 23, 2016 4:13 AM  

Indeed. Though I have noted two things:

1) the timescale is considerably more elastic than I thought say, in the early 1990s

2) it's still pretty lonely at the top

OpenID aew51183 November 23, 2016 4:21 AM  

What I am seeing is trump re-imposing meritocracy through his presence as an American Alpha.

Assuming their models surrounding race and IQ are correct, race-realists will be vindicated re-imposition of meritocracy will result in those with lower IQ falling back to their normal position in society.

Removing government's invasive tendrils will, de-facto, restore a great deal of freedom of association.

Finally, plans regarding the wall were spotted in high-res photos of documents being carried by Trump's transition team. The senate cannot block it because the authorization to build was already passed a decade ago, and the Patriot Act, thought to be the ultimate "Trump card" of globalists, is now becoming the Trump's leverage against illegal alien remittances back home.

Regardless of the fate of the irrelevant label, the agenda still advances.

Blogger Kyle Searle November 23, 2016 4:36 AM  

He's just saying that Spencer doesn't speak for him (which he doesn't). Spencer broke the cardinal rule of the alt-right: don't claim the mantle of leadership. By the same collorary, Trump isn't the leader of the alt-right.

Blogger S. Thermite November 23, 2016 4:38 AM  

Amen. Thank you Vox for posting this. And Kek at America even being acknowledged by Slate as blanco.

Anonymous JAMES November 23, 2016 4:48 AM  

Spencer is a brave man willing to stand up for his beliefs.

He seems to believe that by playing Judo politics with the media he can build enough of a profile to become a figurehead and push his ideas into public view.

It's not a bad plan, he just hasn't read the field right.

You need to outrage the media just enough that they scream about you yet not so much that you alienate your potential audience.

I've seen a few people try this method in my time. You have to be very careful.

Trump can do it.

I thought Spencer could as well.

Now I'm pretty sure he can't, this monster is going to eat him.

I laugh at the larpy kids who think tactics can be transferred seamlessly from Twitter to real life. They have a bit to learn.

Hopefully Trump can give them the chance to do that.

Anonymous Moonbear November 23, 2016 4:54 AM  

I am in agreement with VFMUltra, thank you for the reminder.

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable November 23, 2016 4:57 AM  

Kurgan, the timescale is fractal.

Ignore the host.

Blogger VD November 23, 2016 4:58 AM  

It's not a bad plan, he just hasn't read the field right.

It is a terrible plan. Spencer has shown himself to be utterly out-of-date with regards to technology and the media. His plan was to build up his media profile, which was to encourage people with big pockets to give him money to found an 80s-style think tank.

And his plan is already in tatters. No one of any significance is going to give him money after that performance. It was a complete debacle. But the only harm done is to Richard, and since the plan was a ridiculous one from the start, better sooner rather than later anyhow. My advice would be for him to stop talking to the media, take himself out of the public eye for a while, and come up with a new strategy that will actually be relevant to the current environment.

He's not the first to self-implode from overexcitement about media attention. He won't be the last.

Blogger VD November 23, 2016 5:14 AM  

the timescale is considerably more elastic than I thought say, in the early 1990s

Not me. I've had 2033 as my estimate for political collapse in the USA for over a decade. Interestingly enough, this is in line with the Political Stress Index calculations that Turchin has independently worked out.

We're already at the second-highest PSI ever recorded. The previous peak was 1860.

Blogger The Kurgan November 23, 2016 5:24 AM  

I wouldn't have disagreed in the 1990s about 2030s for breakup of the USA.

What I meant is that about 1992-3 I thought the collapse that happened in 2008 would happen in 5-8 years. So about the year 2000 at most.

I had totally miscalculated the willingness of people to buy into the Ponzi scheme even when it was obviously a Ponzi scheme.

Blogger Mighty Lou November 23, 2016 5:25 AM  

The left won't let Donald distance himself from the Alt-Right.

Blogger Robert What? November 23, 2016 5:26 AM  

The big question: is Trump just "disavowing" the Alt-Right for whatever political reasons he has, or will he actively try to deligitimze it?

Blogger The Kurgan November 23, 2016 5:27 AM  

One other interesting model that predicted 2033 for the breakup of America and most global economics is a guy called Peter Lemesurier who wrote a couple of odd books. The Great Pyramid Decoded and another one on the Nostradamus Prophecies.
Strange but interesting guy.

Blogger VD November 23, 2016 5:37 AM  

The big question: is Trump just "disavowing" the Alt-Right for whatever political reasons he has, or will he actively try to deligitimze it?

The former. Trump could care less about the Alt-Right. He's just preventing the media from using the club that Richard Spencer stupidly handed them to hit Trump - and Bannon - with.

Blogger Jamie-R November 23, 2016 5:40 AM  

It's still early on in the 21st Century, mass immigration in benefit of globalism and democratic decline for each nation's ethnic majority & its implicatons for their future power of consent is being hit with rejection.

Now, be entertained, as Hollywood would say, my latest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2atqIDcXWyQ

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable November 23, 2016 5:41 AM  

The left won't let Donald distance himself from the Alt-Right.

So? That would be a multilayered mistake, which I suddenly used backspace on in case they read here. It'll totally work, guys!

Anonymous Beau November 23, 2016 5:44 AM  

I am Alt-Right. Richard Spencer does not speak for me. President-Elect Donald Trump is my president even if he disavows me.

I am Alt-Right. I have not and never will render a Nazi salute. I do not believe in this Fallen world in the superiority of any race. Still, I know Western civilization was built by white people who today are under assault by the purveyors of White Privilege Theory; which appropriately in a nutshell teaches that Whites are wrong just for being white. I reject this even if condemned by the President-Elect because I know, speaking as a brown man, White lives matter.

I am Alt-Right. I subscribe to the 16-point definition of Alt-Right penned by Vox Day. It has emerged at this point in history because it best reflects history and is I believe an accurate predictive model of what will come, either ignored in scorn or embraced for our lives and for our posterity.

I am Alt-Right in a moment when the Ctrl-Left is emboldened by President-Elect Trump's fitting disavowal of Richard Spencer's version of the future. At this moment - disavowed and condemned - temptation tell me hide. I cannot. I choose to stand as a Man of the West.

I am Alt-Right. As I prepare to thank the Almighty this coming Thanksgiving Day I realize some may make me, my family, and my associations targets and fodder for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. Here I stand, I can do no other.

Heavenly Father, into your hands I commit myself, my family, and all depending upon me. I am Yours first, a husband and father second, and an Alt-Right American third; to these I pledge my life, my fortune, and my sacred honor. In Jesus' precious Name. Amen.

Anonymous TheHardRight November 23, 2016 5:46 AM  

Hey Vox, is there a Hungarian translation of the 16 points?

Anonymous Moonbear November 23, 2016 5:48 AM  

This new force of constant brainwashing and indoctrination from various sources on this scale is difficult to factor in.
Is it at all possible that it has broken the cycle completely?

Anonymous 0018 November 23, 2016 5:49 AM  

VD wrote:I've had 2033 as my estimate for political collapse in the USA for over a decade. Interestingly enough, this is in line with the Political Stress Index calculations that Turchin has independently worked out.

Interestingly, Martin Armstrong's Economic Confidence Model has also pinpointed the period immediately following the 2032 elections as the falling apart.

Blogger Lazarus November 23, 2016 5:51 AM  

The Kurgan wrote:The Great Pyramid Decoded

You are the only other person I know who read that.

You might be interested in a Christian view of the same material. (or not)

The Testimony of God's Stone Witness in Egypt

Blogger ChickenChicken Sweep November 23, 2016 5:54 AM  

The obsession with "DO YOU DISAVOW?!" is both wonderfully and pathetically Maoist: a political variant of "Do you still beat your wife?", a social media show trial where you're tried for the vaguely-defined 'crimes' of others.

Blogger Sillon Bono November 23, 2016 5:56 AM  

God emperor, I mean Trump did as I said yesterday;

Media: Nazis!
Trump; Spencer who?

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable November 23, 2016 5:57 AM  

@ Robert What, that is a false question. Trump has his own unique pan-ethnic American nationalism, that used to be the norm. So he will simply shy away from racialism, whether left or right.

We incidentally provide the foil that shows his moderation, since he isn't like us. And if TPTB tie the President-Elect of the United States to us and his tens of millions of voters, then where is the center of gravity? Whose image gets changed?

Tell average people long enough that they're Nazis and they'll start shopping for uniforms.

Only serious, haha.

Blogger Wanderer November 23, 2016 6:06 AM  

TheHardRight wrote:Hey Vox, is there a Hungarian translation of the 16 points?
Does Hungary need one? They practically already have an alt-right Prime Minister if you listen to any of Orban's speeches.

Blogger ChickenChicken Sweep November 23, 2016 6:08 AM  

"Swollen by the confluence of so many causes it advanced like some complex, blundering, uncontrollable force which absorbed its own authors, and which assumed more and more the featureless and irresistible likeness of Fate. Its full menace was still dimly felt; but the poets and prophets, the creatures of shaping imagination all compact, they were the true seismographs of the situation, and their warning tremors sent a long vibration through the uneasy atmosphere and unsettled conditions of the peninsula." -Ralph Roeder, Renaissance Lawgivers

So who's the Savonarola of today?

Anonymous JAMES November 23, 2016 6:13 AM  

Richard isn't going to lie low.

There are way too many people around him patting him on the back for this "win".

Even old enemies like Anglin are blowing happy bubbles.

But VD is right, his chances of getting anyone to fund his project now are non existent.

It's noble poverty for Richie-not-so-rich now.

Anonymous DissidentRight November 23, 2016 6:13 AM  

Being disavowed means nothing we say can hurt Trump.

Anonymous Mister M November 23, 2016 6:15 AM  

Chris Martensen in around 2007 or so, in his Crash Course, pegged a 20 year window for the collapse as well. He was one of the things that woke me up, along with finding Bill Cooper, Ron Paul, Peter Schiff and improbably enough, Bill Cosby's "poundcake speech".

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable November 23, 2016 6:17 AM  

The obsession with "DO YOU DISAVOW?!" is both wonderfully and pathetically Maoist: a political variant of "Do you still beat your wife?", a social media show trial where you're tried for the vaguely-defined 'crimes' of others.

A standard response could be "Disavow the Holodomor!" (Not for Trump; he doesn't need it.)

Anonymous Beau November 23, 2016 6:19 AM  

When do the Disavowed t-shirts come out?

Blogger VD November 23, 2016 6:22 AM  

A standard response could be "Disavow the Holodomor!"

Stop sperging.

Look, if you rank highly on the aspie scale, just stop trying to provide ideas. You don't think like normal people. You don't communicate like normal people. So, your rhetoric will never be convincing to normal people.

Also, there are no magic words. Deal with it.

Blogger VD November 23, 2016 6:23 AM  

So who's the Savonarola of today?

My money would be on the Chinese guy buying up Hollywood.

Anonymous Bz November 23, 2016 6:34 AM  

Note that Hungary furthermore has Jobbik, the more extreme nationalist party to the right of Orban's Fidesz. Third largest. I think Hungary is doing fine.

Anonymous Bz November 23, 2016 6:35 AM  

Thanks Beau, for some reason my heart always grow lighter after I've read your words.

Anonymous 11/23 November 23, 2016 6:53 AM  

Huge social instability by mid-2030's has been a given for years as SS trust depletes (medicare trust depletes before 2025).

Khan Academy analysis: TLDR - There's no currently known way to fund our government through the 2030's without someone getting fucked over hard. (They'll blame poor people and protect the wealthy.)

Social security fail:
https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/us-history/american-civics-parent/american-civics/v/social-security-intro

Medicare sustainability
https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/us-history/american-civics-parent/american-civics/v/medicare-sustainability

Blogger tuberman November 23, 2016 6:55 AM  

I came Here to learn, and this was an excellent example. Thanks

Anonymous Fisher November 23, 2016 7:12 AM  

Re: Spencer:

It was going to happen to someone at some point; it's going to happen again. Frankly, I'm glad it was such a gargantuan fuck up as it will likely desensitize the next superficially similar instance.

Anyway, White Nationalists are not going to change their tune. If one understands White Nationalism then one understands that 'adaptation' isn't part of its equipment: An 'adapted' White Nationalism is a compromised White Nationalism.

So, yeah, lemonade from lemons: Part of the Alt Right body atrophies, another hypertrophies.

Counterintuitive prediction: A not insignificant percentage of those currently identifying as significantly Left-of-center will be Alt Right or very much leaning Alt Right inside of the next 12(ish) months. They will openly identify as such inside of the next 24.

Because Richard Spencer.

Blogger Old Ez November 23, 2016 7:16 AM  

Anyone who thought Trump wasn't for going to denounce and disavow the alt right for something eventually was fooling themselves. If you're freaking out over Spencer or the disavowal you're failing the shit test because that's exactly what this. As far as Spencer getting big money goes, vox is obviously right. To the commenter who called Anglin an old enemy I lol'd.

Blogger Dirtnapninja November 23, 2016 7:19 AM  

The left is pursuing its classic alinskyite decapitation strategy..they are trying to find a leader or an organisation they can apply pressure to in order to marginalise or destroy the movement. The problem is, the Alt right has no real leaders or orgs. Guys like Spencer or Vox could vanish tommorrow and it would ultimately make no difference because of how cellular and non-organised the movement is. We have evolved to survive those tactics.

Trump isnt alt right, and cannot possibly endorse us publically. He must officially deny us. This is common..resistance movements often have a respectable face and a radical underground.

This isnt a bad thing. We arent here to wield power directly. That's impossible in the current climate climate. Our goal is to change the culture so that our ideas begin to filter into the mainstream. As long as we stay that way, we are resistant to infighting, subversion and infiltration.


Blogger Erynne November 23, 2016 7:21 AM  

This was really good rhetoric, Vox. At first, I thought you were reeling in defense but I think you're right about nothing changing. How many people know who Richard Spencer is? Isn't he small potatoes? Won't people forget about this as soon as the next media cycle begins? We also know, at the very least, Spencer needs to read a copy of MAGA Mindset to understand media cycles. He can implement the Cernovich defense of "yeah, it was dumb, are we done?" Or, he could say, "We. Don't. Care." And he shouldn't care, I haven't seen any of this Spencer stuff show up on my social media or liberal gaming forums. I think people have post-election exhaustion and are focusing on other things. Who has the energy to be outraged by a couple of guys giving the roman salute?

Blogger VD November 23, 2016 7:24 AM  

Because Richard Spencer.

No. Not because Richard Spencer. Or Donald Trump. Or Mike Cernovich. Or me. You have completely failed to understand the post.

The left is pursuing its classic alinskyite decapitation strategy..they are trying to find a leader or an organisation they can apply pressure to in order to marginalise or destroy the movement.

Precisely. That's why I advised the GG strategy. No leaders. No centralization. No think-tanks.

What we need is our own Vivian James. Let's call her: Aryana Wright.

Cartoonists, get to work. White hair and blue eyes, obviously. No Nazi symbols. The past is past. The symbol should be something mathematical, related to the historical cycles.

Blogger Sillon Bono November 23, 2016 7:28 AM  

>>> The problem is, the Alt right has no real leaders or orgs. Guys like Spencer.

Spencer who?

Praise Kek!

Anonymous Gurpgork November 23, 2016 7:28 AM  

Like an 8 lying down, the symbol of infinite and repetition and infinichan? :-)

Blogger Cerdic Ricing November 23, 2016 7:32 AM  

All I've seen is that Spencer has pushed himself towards irrelevance. I like him, but he committed a huge gaff here. This isn't too important to the overall scheme of things.

This doesn't change the waxing wroth of men. We're not driving the tide, we're riding it. As you've said, this will do nothing to change the machinations moving forward.

There are countless men to whom the sixteen points (and thus the fourteen words by composition) are becoming relevant. If our ideology is crafted around where things are pushing, then no matter what, the Alt Right will stay relevant and wax in strength, even as individuals select themselves out of relevance. The machinations will drive us forward, and our success will be driven more by riding the wave properly than by our work and determination (which will still be necessary).

This post has been very helpful, thank you. I've learned a lot from this one and it's given me some great insight.

Blogger Jack Ward November 23, 2016 7:32 AM  

I have no choice but to regard Richard Spencer as my enemy. What he did and its repercussions are no less than what an avowed enemy of Alt Right and any other flavor of Alt whatever we were counting on, could have done. I see him as a kind of 'manchurian' candidate' and suspect he was bought off by soros and the like. So, a few minutes of what seems like stupidity and we have given the freaks and perverts on the left a case of ammo. Probably not stupidity but calculation. Spencer is a dangerous enemy and I doubt anyone or any argument could change my mind.

Blogger Nate November 23, 2016 7:33 AM  

" The problem is, the Alt right has no real leaders or orgs. Guys like Spencer."

That's not a problem. That's why the alt-right is anti-fragile.

People who are concerned about Spencer's fall have a fundamental misunderstanding of what is going on... which Vox is trying like hell to explain.

Blogger Bodo Staron November 23, 2016 7:34 AM  

Since I know Romanians, the remark you received makes me sad.

The first article in the German Grundgesetz says that the human dignity is untouchable. At the same time, this so called highest law, the guiding principle is broken every day.

* The destruction of the Greek people and their ability to escape a horrible situation, not letting them leave the EU.

* The sucking up of talents, like from Romania, to Germany, like an endless drainage of blood from these countries.

* At the same time, the total disregard for the victims among my people. Just two days ago, a 24 year old woman was raped for 90 minutes by an African, reading the description of the perpetrator.

And then politicians wonder, WHY we do not embrace this new hell they have created.

Blogger VD November 23, 2016 7:36 AM  

Probably not stupidity but calculation. Spencer is a dangerous enemy and I doubt anyone or any argument could change my mind.

That's because you're wrong. And you're stubbornly determined to stay wrong. If Richard was an enemy or controlled opposition, he would have shown up in full SS regalia, thrown the salute himself, and shouted "there never was a Holocaust, death to the Jews, Heil Hitler".

What he did was stupid. He compounded his original error in welcoming the media's cameras. But it was a pair of petty mistakes, that's all.

Relax.

Blogger Cerdic Ricing November 23, 2016 7:39 AM  

@VD

The lambda might suit it well, although I think some identarians already use it. Would it be worthwhile to take that or find another symbol?

Blogger Yemi Fawehinmi November 23, 2016 7:39 AM  

Thank you Vox for a well timed post that sets the perspective. Your genius shines through as usual.

Blogger rumpole5 November 23, 2016 7:40 AM  

My question is this. If social security payments are dropped or reduced for retirees who have a set income from another source, are there enough such retirees that the system could be saved?

Blogger VD November 23, 2016 7:40 AM  

That's not a problem. That's why the alt-right is anti-fragile.

He meant it is a problem for the media. They genuinely think discrediting Richard will end the Alt-Right. It won't.

They'll ignore me because I'm a genuine American Indian and La Raza, so they can't shoehorn me into their narrative. Mike is having none of it and is too savvy for them. They've already tried and failed with Milo.

So, one hopes the guys at TRS and Andrew Anglin have learned from Richard's blunders, as I expect it's their turn next.

Anonymous Fisher November 23, 2016 7:40 AM  

VD wrote:Because Richard Spencer.

No. Not because Richard Spencer. Or Donald Trump. Or Mike Cernovich. Or me. You have completely failed to understand the post.


I understand your post, Vox.

The comment you're addressing deals with the investigation of the Alt Right on behalf of more inquisitive sorts drawn into the orbit of the Alt Right in virtue of Spencer's 'incident'.

My own foray into the Alt Right occurred in an analogous way; these things comes in waves; time will tell if Spencer's incident will - as I predict it will - cause such a wave.

Blogger VD November 23, 2016 7:41 AM  

The lambda might suit it well, although I think some identarians already use it. Would it be worthwhile to take that or find another symbol?

No. Not lambda. Just no.

Blogger Nate November 23, 2016 7:41 AM  

" Spencer is a dangerous enemy and I doubt anyone or any argument could change my mind. "

Jack... He's a wanna-be with media whore proclivities.

That vast majority of people who are on our side have never read a word he's written.

Anonymous 11/23 November 23, 2016 7:46 AM  

@43 "No leaders."

I'd reply to any of this: "Who the fuck is Richard Spencer?"

Why not go to the next step?

Leftism is a movement that always adapts to specific populations/situations. Aside from Marx (loosely), there's no unifying doctrine. Leftists aren't required to state strict principles that underpin their movement. Even the name of movement changes constantly.

Why not the same for the Alt-Right? As leftism is the movement that pushes Marxism/socialism, let the Alt-Right be the movement that pushes nationalism.

Then Trump saying he's not 'Alt-Right' is like a Wall Street Jew banker saying he's not an environmentalist. It doesn't fucking matter - there's them, and then there's us.

Blogger Orville November 23, 2016 8:06 AM  

@9 His plan was to build up his media profile, which was to encourage people with big pockets to give him money to found an 80s-style think tank.

It's way too soon for centralization and organization building. We are still in the nascent movement stage. Our strength right now is leaderless decentralization. Cells if you will.

Blogger Old Ez November 23, 2016 8:09 AM  

@47 "What he did" You mean Richard Spencer? What did Richard Spencer do? Are you referring to putting on the conference? Or the fact that he invited media? If you're referring to Nazi stuff, do you even realize that Spencer himself did not give a Roman Salute? He simply raised his glass and then various members of the audience threw up the salutes. Watch the video. These people claiming Spencer is an enemy are the same navel-gazing cry-baby do-nothings who would have lost us this election if we had taken their advice.

Blogger Troy Lee Messer November 23, 2016 8:11 AM  

My out of my ass guess is that in a year, all this Spencer business will be forgotten. Why? Because Trump and/or the alt-right will do something else in a year or so in the moving overton window on which the dying, gasping MSM will attempt to hang their hat which their fake outrage.

Blogger Old Ez November 23, 2016 8:13 AM  

Also, it has been 100% confirmed that the now-infamous picture of the two people giving salutes with Tila at the after party were both Jewish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5zdwUfbdv4

Anonymous Michael T November 23, 2016 8:21 AM  

It looks like calling people Nazis and racists is still not working regardless of how furious the press is working at it.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/donald-trump-popular-poll-231694

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 23, 2016 8:21 AM  

Spencer held yet another intellectual's conference and invited the media that was his mistake. No one's precious intellectualism will overpower the media, they don't care about your 10+SD IQs or how many of the great books you have read or perhaps even authored.

And no the WNs will not change they are totally incapable of it, my suggestion that we encourage them to silliness to discredit themselves. If you try and rein them in they will reflexively rebel.

Blogger VD November 23, 2016 8:33 AM  

And no the WNs will not change they are totally incapable of it, my suggestion that we encourage them to silliness to discredit themselves. If you try and rein them in they will reflexively rebel.

Why do anything at all? Even helpful and constructive criticism will only lead to them lashing out. The best thing to do is simply leave them alone to do their thing. As long as they leave us alone, it's all good.

Blogger Lucas November 23, 2016 8:33 AM  

Andrew Anglin fell for an "interview" with Alan Holmes and it was just terrible.

Blogger Natalie November 23, 2016 8:35 AM  

FWIW the alt-white nazis on twitter are gleefully saying that they'll take the roman salute on the way of Pepe and thereby make it a cool, transgressive salute.

Outside of drunken antics and teenage shenanigans.... no. Just no.

People are talking about Trump "alienating his base," but I'm pretty sure that half or more of the people who voted for him wouldn't be so enthusiastic if Trump started dog whistling to actual nazi larpers. They're useful for pushing the rest of us into the more moderate position, but no.

And speaking as a Southerner - "You lost, now deal with it." I'm tired of larpers (both Nazi and Southern) idealizing a period that resulted in massive losses and the systematic destruction of their/our culture. Am I proud of the boys in grey? Damn straight I am! Do I want us to recreate that conflict in the future? Hell, no! I want to win this time. Yeesh you people.

Anonymous Avalanche November 23, 2016 8:45 AM  

@10 Vox: "I've had 2033 as my estimate for political collapse in the USA"

My educational-hobby is geology, ice ages, cosmic cycles, earth cycles, sun cycles. (HA, and "climate change.")

The two best predictions of the (entirely expected/expectable) next ice age is that it will reach its ... nadir (cause it will not be a peak!) in either 2030 or 2031 (depending on if you go with the Russian calculations, or the Chinese).

(If interested, you can start here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9I6sqDnmS8 John Casey).

So, will it be politics -- or all-too-believable snow and ice, stories-high!?

Blogger Shimshon November 23, 2016 8:48 AM  

Speaking of Great Men. It seems a certain relative of a certain Tom Kratman (close enough to be invited to Mr. Kratman's Thanksgiving meal) is a Facebook FoaF. I got some firsthand confirmation of Kratman's character. Tom, you scare him. Keep up the good work. Hilarious.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 23, 2016 8:48 AM  

Yeah even if we convinced the neo-nazis to stop with their stupidity the media would pay them for interviews. Yes the media pays the neo-nazis for interviews. So their LARPing will continue, hell its a business opportunity for the crazy.

But, is this an opportunity to discredit the media even more?

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 23, 2016 8:52 AM  

In defense of Spencer, pics of the audience saluters are appearing and I have a suspicion that Aryan purity it ain't. But again the mistake was yet another intellectual's conference versus the media and another blowout loss for "muh intellectualism."

Blogger Nate November 23, 2016 8:53 AM  

" Do I want us to recreate that conflict in the future? Hell, no! I want to win this time"

false equivilance. Look at why the South lost last time. now look at the south today.

Those giant factories up north that helped the union war effort? They're gone.

They're down here now. And while we admire Jeff Davis for being a good and honourable man... we also acknowledge his fatal strategic errors and we will not repeat them.

Anonymous Avalanche November 23, 2016 8:55 AM  

@16 "Now, be entertained, as Hollywood would say, my latest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2atqIDcXWyQ"

Hey Jaimie? PLEASE, before releasing a video, listen/watch with headphones?! The music, as against the vocal track, is WAY out of balance; one can barely hear the speaking over the loud music! The music should be far-background; NOT an equal competitor to the speech (which is the important part, yes?).

I'm enjoying the video -- but struggling to separate out the words!

p.s., I have entirely normal (actually excellent) hearing and am using plain-old Sennheiser headphones...)

Anonymous Avalanche November 23, 2016 8:58 AM  

(Jaime -- oof, same with "Donald J Trump - American Moxy" video....WAY loud music! WAY louder than Trump speaking...)

Blogger Elizabeth November 23, 2016 9:04 AM  

rumpole5 wrote:My question is this. If social security payments are dropped or reduced for retirees who have a set income from another source, are there enough such retirees that the system could be saved?

A recently-retired financial adviser friend of mine predicted collapse in 2032. She also suggested means testing Social Security and Medicare, abolishing foundations because they are tax dodges for the rich, abolish trust funds and tax churches.

Blogger Nate November 23, 2016 9:07 AM  

"She also suggested means testing Social Security and Medicare, abolishing foundations because they are tax dodges for the rich, abolish trust funds and tax churches."

She's obviously an idiot. or she's a very bright girl who wants to see the country burn.

Anonymous JAMES November 23, 2016 9:08 AM  

Just listened to the daily shoah mock Mike Cernovich for an hour while protesting loudly that he's not worth talking about.

VD is right, Spencer is wrong. A new platform is better than performing like a clown for scraps.

Strange that the TRS goys have done just that, same as Cernovich did, yet can't see where Spencer is wrong.

I guess you critique their precious Hitler love and they circle the wagons.

That said the audio from Mike's periscope was scattered, disorganized and woeful, he does much better on his podcasts when he has more time to think it out.

Anonymous Avalanche November 23, 2016 9:13 AM  

@46 "This doesn't change the waxing wroth of men. We're not driving the tide, we're riding it."

ooooh I like this concept: the Alt Right "army" ridin' surfboards (on a tidal wave?). Spencer's board has 'turned back over the wave edge' but he's (possibly) catching the NEXT wave?

(Throwing it out there; sorry, but I have no graphics skills at all. Ilk?)

OpenID paworldandtimes November 23, 2016 9:17 AM  

while we admire Jeff Davis for being a good and honourable man... we also acknowledge his fatal strategic errors and we will not repeat them.

What were the CSA's strategic errors? My perhaps incorrect understanding is that they were simply overwhelmed.

PA

Blogger Student in Blue November 23, 2016 9:32 AM  

@VD
What we need is our own Vivian James. Let's call her: Aryana Wright.

*laughs* With all the subtlety of a damn hammer!

Anonymous Taco Town November 23, 2016 9:35 AM  

There are a few reasons to be optimistic that it will be different this time on the decaying empire front:

1. The elites have little direct loyalty when it comes to the military or law enforcement(these are more loyal to the country or the middle/working classes than to the elites)
2. The middle and working classes are heavily armed
3. The internet as a source of anti-elite information and organization

Anonymous Avalanche November 23, 2016 9:42 AM  

@67 '"You lost, now deal with it.' I'm tired of larpers (both Nazi and Southern) idealizing a period that resulted in massive losses and the systematic destruction of their/our culture. Am I proud of the boys in grey? Damn straight I am! Do I want us to recreate that conflict in the future? Hell, no! I want to win this time. Yeesh you people."

BRAVA, Natalie!

As strongly as I support Nazi's and Confederates... y'all LOST! It's over! You cannot bring them back to life. Hold either/both groups in your deepest of hearts but realize: There will not EVER be acceptance from the vast majority of Americans/Euro-derived peoples. It's painful, but that ship has SAILED!

(I was a typical brainwashed Northerner, raised in deep pro-jewish/anti-Nazi (and femininst, anti-racist) propaganda -- but I WAS able to be recovered to my people. NOT by talking to guys marching in uniform (which my husband actually DID as a young man!) but by him asking me to work through the causes and end-results of the (liberal) beliefs I had been given. He guided me to read and learn the truth.)

(Alas,) You cannot, you will not, 'recover' our people by pounding them with the propaganda icons they have been MOST buried under! (It's very close to a reflex now; you hit them with a hammer in their pro-jew beliefs, they lash out *reflexively*. You can't talk them out of that!) They will NEVER accept there was anything valid about National Socialism or the CSA (hello, dialectic!!). It does not, and probably never WILL, matter that *we* have boatloads of proof -- and our enemies have nothing.

Two big reasons: the brainwashing is a 'root worm' -- you're not likely to get it out because it was planted starting in infancy! (My husband used to say it took two years of full-time work and close association to finish my awakening...) And the bigger one:

DIALECTIC WILL NOT WORK!

(Thank you, Dark Lord, for finally getting THAT through my brainwashing!)

OpenID cicerotoo November 23, 2016 9:49 AM  

Adaptive complex systems theory is a good tool for analyzing this phenomenon. Self-organizing systems eventually trump (no pun intended) imposed orders. Self-organizing systems need no formal leadership. It embodies Natural Law.

Blogger Michael O'Duibhir November 23, 2016 9:51 AM  

" But barbarians at the gate are not the real cause of imperial collapse. They are a consequence of the failure to sustain social cooperation."
That's it. The founding of this nation was a power grab, a coup skillfully prosecuted by a masonic elite. The subsequent mythology (made out of whole cloth) which was drilled into us as school children served to condition us to avoid delving into certain realities that might undermine that mythology. So, here we are. They're beyond knocking at the gate.

Anonymous CC November 23, 2016 9:53 AM  

This is just an aside, but I watched an interesting video recently of a body language expert analysing Trump's body language while he was being interviewed by Megyn Kelly a while back.

It's worth watching the whole thing. The analyst doesn't seem to be a fan but overall she's very fair with him. Observing body language can be helpful in understanding how people are really feeling and there are some interesting insights in there; including when Megyn asks him about his brother and his reaction to her vision of him on a typical Friday evening, wearing a crushed red velvet jacket relaxing on a chaise lounge (he's disgusted at this obviously).

In this bit, he talks about his fans and how they would send Megyn Kelly mean tweets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuGf2G8NyJI&feature=youtu.be&t=958

He claims that he doesn't want this to happen and then tries to cover for the fans a bit by saying: "My fans they really love... We have an unbelievable bond..." As he says he shakes his head slightly which supposedly negates what he says.

I thought this was interesting, to me, it was already showed a subtle disavowal. I reckon Trump wasn't always entirely happy with some aspects of his fans (and by extension the Alt-Right), possibly some of the fashier or extreme elements that would pop up in the memes, like Nazis, ovens and insults based on race, sex etc. but probably took it to be mostly tongue-in-cheek. He had also more than likely decided never to attack his own side, the American people or anybody who hadn't attacked him.

In a sense he was right, there was an unbelievable bond between Trump and his fans, many of whom were Alt-Right. The support for him was near universal as far as I could tell, apart from people who were sceptical of the Jewish influence. And both Trump and Alt-Right recognised how important they were to each other while understanding that they weren't necessarily what they ideally wanted.

But I think now when Trump hears about salutes in the real world, it understandably alarms him because he really doesn't want anything to do with that, so he publicly distances himself from supporters that were probably making him uncomfortable with some of their stances anyway.

I don't think he needs the support of the Alt-Right now as much as he did before: he's won the election, where he goes from here depends mainly on his judgement and actions rather than memes. And as Vox wrote the Alt-Right and particularly the forces behind are going to exist anyway. Trump's candidacy and victory was just an enormous and unexpected boon. Right now we're all still on the same path.

Anonymous Avalanche November 23, 2016 9:59 AM  

Let me expand a bit on this:

I WAS able to be recovered to my people. NOT by talking to guys marching in uniform (which my husband actually DID as a young man!) but by him asking me to work through the causes and end-results of the (liberal) beliefs I had been given. He guided me to read and learn the truth.)

Yes, he reached me by dialectic -- BUT If I had not been already madly in love (a side-effect perhaps of rhetoric?) with him, BEFORE his "dark side" ever showed up openly...I would have run screaming! Being honorable, after courting me for a while by email)we were across the continent from each other)... he finally (having planted various small, possibly innocuous, "pointers") said that he was concerned that I might find some of his beliefs ... uncomfortable.

I wrote: yeah, I had a sense we weren't on the same page: you're a Republican, aren't you? (did I mention I was brainwashed?)

He answered: No, something MUCH worse! I'm am anti-modern Neitzschean! (I'm hoping you won't know what that is, so you stick around!)"

But, as I wrote at some length in a StormFront: How to Awaken A Woman https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t137649/ (and a thread I dimly remember calling "Advice to Bachelors: How to find or make your awakened woman"); young single awakened men are unlikely to FIND a ready-made WN woman. If you want a mate, you will probably have to MAKE one of what's available... The first and most important step is to HIDE your "disaffection" and lead her to fall in love with you FIRST! If she is not in love with you,t hen when you begin to open up, her inculcated *reflex* will cause her to run screaming.

If, on the other hand, and as was true for me, she is already in love; then she has to find a way to reconcile that you are a man she respects and loves and wishes to 'match' with your 'horrid beliefs.' (Women are built to fit into their milieu, hence the destruction of our society when that milieu was degraded!) That (and ONLY that!) she loves you gives you the time to start the unbrainwashing -- which does, alas, require dialectic,if it is to last and be foundational. (Even then, you may never get her to the point of loving National Socialism!)

Anonymous Avalanche November 23, 2016 10:04 AM  

@85 "He claims that he doesn't want this to happen and then tries to cover for the fans a bit by saying: "My fans they really love... We have an unbelievable bond..." As he says he shakes his head slightly which supposedly negates what he says."

Disagree with the "expert" -- shaking his head slightly is more likely a sense of bafflement. Trump would (likely) never send hostile msgs to someone he's not interested in continuing a relationship of some sort with, total waste of his time. He may really not get why his fans waste their time "defending" him.

Blogger Natalie November 23, 2016 10:04 AM  

Nate wrote:" Do I want us to recreate that conflict in the future? Hell, no! I want to win this time"

false equivilance. Look at why the South lost last time. now look at the south today.

Those giant factories up north that helped the union war effort? They're gone.

They're down here now. And while we admire Jeff Davis for being a good and honourable man... we also acknowledge his fatal strategic errors and we will not repeat them.



As much as I hate to say it to a Bama fan - you seem entirely more sane that some of the Southern Nationalists I've either spoken to or interacted with on-line. Although they say they aren't larpers I keep seeing gamma like "Well, if they'd played by the rules we'd have beat them fair and square!" So you played by the rules while Sherman burned and killed everything in his path. Please, lets talk about the moral purity of the Southern generals and how we "should have won."

I hope I respect and honor the righteousness of such men as they deserve, but that doesn't mean I have much time for people who can't seem to acknowledge why and how we lost and how the South can plan to survive and thrive in the future. Guess I need to get out more....

Anonymous Vermithrax Pejorative November 23, 2016 10:10 AM  

@70

"But, is this an opportunity to discredit the media even more?"

Yes. If someone brings it up, just start using it as an educational example of how the media constructs the narrative. Because that's exactly what this is.

Blogger Nate November 23, 2016 10:11 AM  

while I agree that the movement cannot be stopped... the brand "alt-right" just got seriously damaged. now even people who supported Trump and have the same values the alt-right has are sharing memes highlighting americans beating up nazis.

We'll have to see how long it lasts but its entirely possible that Spencer just wrecked the brand name he created.

but that's fine... the brand name has nothing to do with the movement. And many of the people crapping on the brand name are actually still in agreement with the movement.



Anonymous Whitey Whiteman III November 23, 2016 10:14 AM  

The real leader is, of course, /pol/

Viva Los Pepes!!

Blogger Nate November 23, 2016 10:25 AM  

"As much as I hate to say it to a Bama fan - you seem entirely more sane that some of the Southern Nationalists I've either spoken to or interacted with on-line."

We lost by playing nice... playing by the rules... and being to focused on the moral aspect of war. We spent to much time trying to virtue signal to France and England to get them to help us. and we should have focused on just one rather than both.

There are southern nationalists that act like Vandy Football fans... you know the kind.. "Sure you beat us by 50 but at least we graduate our players and they get a good education!"

Those guys won't be running things.

Blogger Ben Cohen November 23, 2016 10:37 AM  

It's also in line with Martin Armstrong's model.

Blogger Ben Cohen November 23, 2016 10:46 AM  

It's also in line with Martin Armstrong's model.

Blogger pyrrhus November 23, 2016 10:52 AM  

@68 Martin Armstrong's ECM model shows collapse accelerating rapidly after the 2032 election, with likely secession.

Blogger pyrrhus November 23, 2016 10:54 AM  

@92 Nate, that is absolutely true. The South played by gentlemen's rules, and soon found out that the North was not run by gentlemen.

OpenID cicerotoo November 23, 2016 11:03 AM  

Avoid creating symbols for your movement, even a name, and attack their symbols. You win.

Blogger Nate November 23, 2016 11:09 AM  

"Avoid creating symbols for your movement, even a name, and attack their symbols. You win. "

actually... if we could manage to avoid associating a nationalist movement with the most notorious enemies the nation ever faced... that would be good.

Blogger Bodo Staron November 23, 2016 11:17 AM  

VD wrote:Because Richard Spencer.

What we need is our own Vivian James. Let's call her: Aryana Wright.

Cartoonists, get to work. White hair and blue eyes, obviously. No Nazi symbols. The past is past. The symbol should be something mathematical, related to the historical cycles.


As a template, Candice the Cuckslayer. pol drew her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BJItHuZCG8

https://sli.mg/g2Ljcj
https://sli.mg/SvKPjT

Anonymous That Would Be Telling November 23, 2016 11:20 AM  

@37 11/23:

Huge social instability by mid-2030's has been a given for years as SS trust depletes (medicare trust depletes before 2025).

These "trust funds" are an accounting fiction. The surplus money, and it's been a lot since the 1982 FICA tax increase, is "loaned" to the Federal government through unmarketable bonds and immediately spent (what, you think the Feds could keep their hands off the money? And if they'd been putting it to the side, you'd have heard about what a monstrous investment entity it was).

This also harks back to the general rule that current consumption must be funded by current production (not so true in the days of old when food grains where the most important part of that, but keeping people fed at that level is not exactly a challenge today).

So Social Security has been running a cash deficit since not long after the Great Recession hit and Obamanomics made it worse, for around 6 years as best as I can tell and current around 70 billion annually. That means general tax revenue to the tune of 70 billion is being used to pay current Social Security benefits. Oh, yeah, every day 10,000 Baby Boomers hit retirement age, although that's still slowly increasing to age 67.

Don't ask about Medicare....

Anonymous That Would Be Telling November 23, 2016 11:32 AM  

@53 rumpole5:

My question is this. If social security payments are dropped or reduced for retirees who have a set income from another source, are there enough such retirees that the system could be saved?

That assumes the government can keep their hands off those other sources before that point. They're already talking about taxing IRAs and the like, many expect an Argentinean outright confiscation someday.

Blogger Cail Corishev November 23, 2016 11:42 AM  

There's nothing wrong with symbols; the red MAGA hat and Vivian James are both great symbols. But a new "movement" needs new symbols that gain their power organically. It doesn't need a faction of the movement to say, "Hey, we've got this symbol we've loved for years, even though whenever we wear it we get kicked out of parties. Let's all use that!"

A symbol like that is....symbolic of what else the person pushing it wants the larger group to accept.

Blogger MeneMene November 23, 2016 11:58 AM  

VD: Look, if you rank highly on the aspie scale, just stop trying to provide ideas. You don't think like normal people. You don't communicate like normal people. So, your rhetoric will never be convincing to normal people.

Oh, that's why no one listens to me!

Anonymous 11/23 November 23, 2016 12:15 PM  

@100
Sure, it might fall apart sooner - the numbers are a fake, best case scenario.

From reading Zerohedge since 2013, I have learned to never attempt precise predictions about when it all falls apart or how. However, finding an upper bound is reasonable.

When the system fails to the point that police and military must choose between eating, healthcare, and energy for home, that's when it all breaks down (if it hasn't already).

I've met public servants who were told by retirement planners that their entire pension check would be spent on health insurance premiums by 2040, according to current trends.

I've yet to find anyone with a plausible explanation about how US Gov't funds itself into the 2040s.

Trump is the only one even looking at the problem by saying he'll bring back factories. I consider it a Hail Mary pass at best.

Blogger Elizabeth November 23, 2016 12:44 PM  

Nate wrote:"She also suggested means testing Social Security and Medicare, abolishing foundations because they are tax dodges for the rich, abolish trust funds and tax churches."

She's obviously an idiot. or she's a very bright girl who wants to see the country burn.


She said what needed to be done, not what will be done. Also, she's hardly a "girl" at age 80 and I am sure that she is a lot smarter than you.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents November 23, 2016 12:54 PM  

rumpole5
My question is this. If social security payments are dropped or reduced for retirees who have a set income from another source, are there enough such retirees that the system could be saved?

No.

Depending on whose numbers you use, at some point in the next 25 years the entire Federal budget will be spent on transfer payments to individuals and health care. 100%. That is not possible. So something will change.

Blogger LES November 23, 2016 1:09 PM  

I'm not a Nazi, neo-Nazi or anti-Semitic. I avoided reading "Mein Kampf" for fear it would turn me into one or all of those.

I am reading it now and am amazed at the similarities of the US today and the Germany described by the young Hitler and his views on Marxism.

I am reading the Ford translation which is very readable and gives explanations of phrases and references which are very helpful.

Anonymous Jack Amok November 23, 2016 1:14 PM  

But VD is right, his chances of getting anyone to fund his project now are non existent.

Soros might. Hopefully Spencer is aware enough, and responsible enough, to avoid that.

So, yeah, lemonade from lemons: Part of the Alt Right body atrophies, another hypertrophies.

One of the key concepts of Antifragile is that often the antifragility of the whole comes at the cost of fragility for individual members. The economy thrives and grows because failed businesses are allowed to go bankrupt and their resources reallocated for new enterprises, which can also learn from the mistakes. But - like the bankster system - attempts to over-protect individual elements from the consequences of their mistakes harms the whole.

Like an 8 lying down, the symbol of infinite and repetition and infinichan? :-)

I'd turn the infinity symbol sideways (like an 8 standing up) and make it an hour glass with the sand just about gone. Times almost up, things are about to flip over.

But... Aryanna? Hmmmm.

Anonymous crushlimbraw November 23, 2016 1:15 PM  

Well, I finally learned what cliodynamics is. (Don't ask what I thought it was at first.:)

The biggest argument I have had with other folks in the last few months is their obsessive focus on Trump. That's all they saw. When I said that Trump is just riding a wave in history, their reaction was basically 'no comprende'. It was either Trump is DaMessiah or Old Scratch himself.

The same is true for us Alt Right leaners - there is little we can do about any of this, except design out strategy and tactics to take the best advantage of the reality which awaits us.

The examples of how too many of us depend on the 'wishing well' approach abound in politics and our culture. Conservatives would worship at DaGOP 'wishing well' - even though DaGOP was never conservative.
Christians pray and send their children to the public school 'wishing well' and then wonder why their children never grow up. Etc. etc. etc.

Vox, your "The fate of the Alt Right does not depend upon one of its media-christened figureheads, but upon its willingness to align itself with the observable patterns of history as they play out." - nails it for me and I thank you for confirming my suspicions.

In other words - keep your eye on the ball - never mind the danged squirrel!

Anonymous Jack Amok November 23, 2016 1:23 PM  

My question is this. If social security payments are dropped or reduced for retirees who have a set income from another source, are there enough such retirees that the system could be saved?

As others have said, no. Boomers in particular haven't saved very much, and have a great deal of their net worth tied up in real estate (e.g. their house) which will crash in value soon. Hard to sell a house for half a million to a Millennial couple already in hock to their eyeballs for their college degrees.

Gen-X isn't in great shape for self-funding retirement either, since the economy crashed during what should have been our most lucrative years.

Besides, That Would Be Telling is right, current consumption must be funded by current production. A prosperous society can afford pensioners spending their golden years on the golf course. A struggling one has to either put them to work or set them out on an ice flow. Gen-X gets to work, Boomers get the ice flow. (Perhaps that's the source of Millennials obsession with Global Warming - they're subconsciously worried there won't be enough ice flows. )

Anonymous BadThink6655321 November 23, 2016 2:02 PM  

Being correct, and providing an operative, accurate predictive model upon which people can rely, will trump monkeys dancing in front of the media every single time.

On the contrary, in an idiocracy, dancing monkeys trump science every time.

Blogger DEPLORABLILITY November 23, 2016 2:37 PM  

Why does the alt-right need a leader. I like the idea of anonymous-esqe keeps them from pinning it down. Go for broke code a new world.

Anonymous Elijah Rhodes November 23, 2016 2:38 PM  

Given that the MSM is shrieking "racist" at everything that moves, it's hard to see how Spencer's foley rises much above the signal to noise.

And can I just say that the hand-wringing among some Alt-righers smacks of pathetic defeatism.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents November 23, 2016 2:50 PM  

@110 Jack Amok
(Perhaps that's the source of Millennials obsession with Global Warming - they're subconsciously worried there won't be enough ice flows. )



Finally! An explanation that makes sense.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents November 23, 2016 2:52 PM  

@112 DEPLORABLE
Why does the alt-right need a leader.

It's not hard. It's just like #GamerGate.

"I am the leader of the alt-Right, and you can too. "

Blogger Jack Ward November 23, 2016 3:01 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger RmaxGenactivePUA Mgtow November 23, 2016 3:36 PM  

GenActive PUA Rule No.1 & 2

1. The more biologically correct a society is, the more succesful it is

2. The real battlefield is the optimisation of biology & more importantly biochemistry

Do you optimise biology for the advantage of the elites, or do you optimise biology to the advantage of yourself?

Your personality is formed from the optimisation of your biology, take control

2. PUA is all about taking the control of the optimisation of your biology & reproductive fitness, out of the hands of the elites, society & woman.

3. Create your own smv, stop your environment from dictating it.

4. Control your environment, by creating your own smv, optimising & exceeding your biology & reproductive fitness.

5. Learn to control the hordes by cycling their biology & biochemistry through hypnotic controls & words

6. Manipulate biology & biochemistry, as well as psychology. Master the basal optimal biological traits of a tribal alpha, by manipulating hard wired patterns of biology & sociobiology.

Blogger VD November 23, 2016 4:11 PM  

Just listened to the daily shoah mock Mike Cernovich for an hour while protesting loudly that he's not worth talking about.

They talk about him for an hour. He mentions them in passing. Quiz: Who matters?

while I agree that the movement cannot be stopped... the brand "alt-right" just got seriously damaged. now even people who supported Trump and have the same values the alt-right has are sharing memes highlighting americans beating up nazis.

They hated the Alt-Right before and now they're jumping on the media's bandwagon in an attempt to take it out. That's exactly why you never trust a moderate. They will always take the enemy's side at the first opportunity.

The Alt-Right brand isn't damaged in the slightest, it's Richard's that is. And it is damaged inside the Alt-Right.

As I have said, repeatedly, the Alt-Right will succeed or fail on the basis of macro-level events proceeding according to its conceptual model or not. And we are ALREADY seeing additional signs that it is correct and all the conservatives and cucks are hopelessly, haplessly wrong, as per the coming 4 PM post.

Those of you who are worried about "brand" are too caught up in magical thinking. It doesn't matter if it's called Alt-Right, Pretty Right, Kumbaya Right, or Harvey. If the 16 Points are on point, it will eventually become the Right, sans modifier.

All the moderates are those who agree with W, X, and Y, but disagree with Z. As time passes, I anticipate they will become less and less able to do so. It's one thing to keep insisting "I just don't see color" now, it's another thing when BLM on angel dust erupts in your neighborhood.

Blogger tublecane November 23, 2016 5:54 PM  

I don't wish to be flippant, because you hit upon a profound point, but the idea that War and Peace is a satirical polemic in the tradition of "A Modest Proposal" rather than a novel is certainly false. For one thing, there's nothing about the form of the novel preventing it from being an illustration of the arrogant incompetence of human understanding and the inability of human reason to explain even the simplest of social phenomena. Such illustrations are commonplace in the novel. The entire genre of Realism is full out it.

I've heard the question, "Is War and Peace even a novel?" before, but usually it's for the opposite reason you adduce. People don't like what they see as a chaotic stream of incidents, unconnected a sense of cause and effect united, if at all, by Tolstoy's mysticism. What you're suggesting would provide the book artistic unity, however.

Interesting you use the word "illustrate," because "A Modest Proposal" barely does that. The dramatic veil, in a manner of speaking, is paper thin. War and Peace, on the other hand, makes the argument you ascribe to it, if it does, through endless, excruciatingly detailed examples. It also has fooled a great number of people, given its popularity and reputation, if it was merely masquerading as a novel. All those characters,events, settings, rising and d falling action, climaxes, turns, and so forth, that's an incredible amount of subterfuge.

We could argue about its value as a novel. I very much liked it, but it's artistic merit is questionable. For one thing, you'd think a novelist of Tolstoy's stature would have been more influential specifically as a novelist. But his influence has been greater outside his specialty: in philosophy, morals, religion, etc. That says something right there. But perhaps not what you want it to say.

For if Tolstoy had an axe to grind and was a philosopher of history, or whatever, posing as a novelist, he'd be Ayn Rand. Lower, actually, because Rand's books are good enough to be bought and actually read. I wouldn't call them un-novels, either, though they suffer under her axe-grinding.

Novels written to make a point usually suck. Not always, but usually. War and Peace doesn't suck as a novel, though it has its weak points. So I have good reason to believe it wasn't just a satire posing as a novel.

Blogger tublecane November 23, 2016 5:56 PM  

Sorry, that should be for reasons opposite to those you adduce.

Blogger tublecane November 23, 2016 6:06 PM  

What's more, there's nothing about the fact that War and Peace is an extended satire, if indeed it is, that prevents it from being a novel. There are plenty of satirical novels.

Blogger VD November 23, 2016 6:33 PM  

I don't wish to be flippant, because you hit upon a profound point, but the idea that War and Peace is a satirical polemic in the tradition of "A Modest Proposal" rather than a novel is certainly false.

Dude, it was a joke. I was simply underlining the idea that it had a point to it.

Anonymous BGKB November 23, 2016 6:59 PM  

From reading Zerohedge since 2013, I have learned to never attempt precise predictions about when it all falls apart or how.

Read SHTFPLAN, the collapse is always happening tomorrow

Anonymous JT November 23, 2016 7:03 PM  

"The Alt-Right will remain a potent and rising force throughout the West because the ebb and flow of historical patterns, patterns that scientists and historians developing Structural Dynamic Theory have traced back as far as ancient China and Rome, are still observably playing out through events today."

nope. you guys are fringe extremists, at best, delusional to the max, seeing conspiracy theories everywhere where there are none. the PEOTUS played to you, sang to you then after being elected tossed you aside like a dirty napkin. long story short--your cause is bupkus and America knows it. reality bites eh?

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey November 23, 2016 7:46 PM  

Mr.MantraMan
Yeah, looks like "Watcha doin', Rabbi?" has been confirmed (see Old Ez's link above). Only thing worse than having the media there is having media + tribal members in the audience.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey November 23, 2016 8:14 PM  

"There is more, considerably more, than this restatement of what John Glubb and Edward Gibbon and Polybius, and other historians have noted would appear to indicate."

Perhaps a little reminiscent of Kennedy's "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers," but with the recognition that there's more to a society than GDP and military power?

Anonymous Sazerac November 23, 2016 10:36 PM  

Regarding the symbol we could sperg and go full 40k 'Alpha Legion'. 20th legion, anti-fragile hydra as its symbol and no leaders and subversive tactics.

Otherwise something related to Rome. Maybe the cross symbol that Constantine used on his banners when he took Rome. Not mathematical however. Maybe combine it with roman numerals of the founding of Constantinople or even the sack of Carthage.

Blogger tublecane November 23, 2016 11:46 PM  

@122-Okay.

@124-In reality, Trump never sang to the alt-right, courted it, or even acknowledged it except to say he's never heard of it and to distance himself from it. Which didn't mean much to me, because I know we're a while away from an alt-right candidate. Trump wasn't about that, or even about alt-righters getting jobs in the administration. He was about someone ebbing the tide of PC, and about where he stood on the Three Biggie issues (immigration, trade, foreign policy).

I do look forward to the decline of Conservatism, Inc. That's one more or less direct benefit the alt-right will get from Trump's victory. Whether he outright condemns the alt-right or not won't matter one bit on that score.

Blogger Thucydides November 24, 2016 10:41 AM  

@37

While I agree that the chances of this happening are pretty high, there are a few potential "Black Swan" events which could lead us away from this fate.

Number one is the expansion into space being led by Elon Musk and seemingly tacitly approved by President Trump. If the US Government gets out of the way, space enterprise has the potential to tap massive new sources of resources and wealth, allowing for a long term stream of revenues to deal with debt, unfunded liabilities and even crush the Coward-Piven Strategy once and for all.

Unexpected developments in various technologies could also lead to a large increase in productivity, which drives wealth creation.

While the timelines are very tight (and really there is no way to entirely pay off the debt and obligations right away, but simply refinance with a larger income stream to ensure immediate obligations are paid), there is still hope. We can work on salvaging the culture, rebuilding the political and social structures that Cultural Marxists have tried to destroy and otherwise prepare the table as our contribution.

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable November 25, 2016 12:01 AM  

Stop sperging.

Look, if you rank highly on the aspie scale, just stop trying to provide ideas. You don't think like normal people. You don't communicate like normal people. So, your rhetoric will never be convincing to normal people.

Also, there are no magic words. Deal with it.


Oops, just saw this after a similar post. Well.. okay. I should start making visual memes again, see what sticks. Thanks!

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable November 25, 2016 1:45 AM  

@JT: the PEOTUS played to you, sang to you

That is your confirmation bias of what you assumed we would want to hear, making you hear him say those things.

Both are false; and your mind tricked you because, I infer, you want a world without whites.

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