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Saturday, November 26, 2016

Is the Alt-Right dead?

Paul Joseph Watson talks to Mike Cernovich about the question.


Contrary to what you'll read about them, the answer is quite obviously no. PJW and Mike understand the new media game much, much better than most of their critics, all of whom are still operating on the same outdated concept that let the media play Richard Spencer last week. That doesn't mean they are always correct; I trust their judgment on the media and I prefer to rely upon my own with regards to the more abstract and historical elements.

Events and movements require the right moment more than the right person. What will have a massive impact today might have gone unnoticed five years ago. Social mood, as per socionomics, is key. The historical cycles, from Kondratieff to the debt cycle, also play significant roles. The next 10 years are the Alt-Right's moment, because only its ideology is in harmony with both the zeitgeist and the material, measurable societal metrics that the cliodynamicists are tracking.

Both the USA and Europe are rapidly approaching critical stress points with unhappy populaces and rival elites whose interests cannot be rectified. An 1860-level event could take place in as few as four years from now in one or more nations in the West, and that's not even taking the situations in Ukraine/Russia, Syria, Iran, or the South Pacific into account. That is why the Alt-Right is destined to rise in much the same way the Republicans did regardless of a) what it is called or b) who is involved.

What is happening is much, much bigger than the media, the Alt-White, or even PJW understand. (PJW hasn't caught onto the inevitability of identity politics yet, but he's smart and he'll figure out their relevance soon.) There is very little that any of us can do about any of this; even the global elite who flatter themselves with the idea that they are driving events are actually doing little more than attempting to hold on to the hurricane and exploit whatever consequences result.

Look, I'm a game designer. I design multi-variable models, and without the ability to design for effect, or impose external limitations on the outputs, fairly minor changes rapidly cause the model to become unpredictable. And the complexity of real world events is vastly greater than a simulation of a sports league, or a single game.

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181 Comments:

Anonymous BGKB November 26, 2016 7:56 PM  

How to tell if you are dead, you will start voting democrat.

Pizza Pizza is starting to spread http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/evidence-scrubbed-accounts-suspended-as-citizen-researchers-delve-into-the-hell-that-is-pizzagate_11252016

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Deplorable Cents November 26, 2016 7:56 PM  

The historical cycles, from Kondratieff to the debt cycle,

Few are the blogs that dare to mention Kondratieff.
Anyone besides me looked at hemlines on Western fashion lately? They are down. Mini's are out. That's a mirror of social mood.

When the tsunami hits, don't be out in the water or playing in the sand. No, the alt-right isn't dead, it can't be, because it's not any one individual. It's more bigger than that.

Blogger Al From Bay Shore November 26, 2016 8:01 PM  

Yo, that 1860 reference. Then there's is #PizzaGate. Then there's the Clinton Foundation "Pay For Play". Then there's the collapse of the Mainstream Media. And then... so much stuff to keep track of.

I need a drink.

Anonymous (((Joshua))) November 26, 2016 8:05 PM  

If we can learn anything from the past year, it's that certain things "could never happen in a million years", until they do.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents November 26, 2016 8:09 PM  

@3 Al
so much stuff to keep track of

Some of this stuff has been bubbling under the surface for 20 years or longer. Podesta and Hastert were buds how long ago?
It's a YUGE flat rock that needs to be fully flipped over, so we can see all the stuff underneath. The social mood now is ready to see that.

I need a drink

You and me both.

Blogger Rusty Fife November 26, 2016 8:09 PM  

(((Joshua))) wrote:If we can learn anything from the past year, it's that certain things "could never happen in a million years", until they do.

It's been a year of black swans. Like someone was breeding them, and suddenly they escaped.

Blogger tz November 26, 2016 8:10 PM  

Much bigger.
The problem with the idealists is like a Christian church that thinks that by inviting Muslims in - knowing Christ is all powerful and they might be converted - that it will happen. Meanwhile they will cajole a position on the Church board until they are the majority then throw the Christians out, but in the interim will disrupt services with Muslim calls to prayer and their practices.

The FACT is that there are between 50 and 100 million in the USA, most are citizens!, that detest, hate, or reject the Declaration, the Constitution, any notion of Equality, and aren't going to assimilate.

(I won't speculate about secular or Christian evangelism to convert them over a few years so that there is a chance of assimilation as I don't see it even being attempted on a small scale).

The Left coast seceding would relieve much pressure. There is a scene from Ghandi where the Hindus are marching southward and the Muslims northward. Now we have two nuclear powers staring each other down since Kasmir is still disputed.

If we do not soon have dis-Integration, we will soon have disintegration.

Still, Whites have weaker in-group preferences. If someone who is black or Asian came here, wore a MAGA cap, Knew guns and went hunting, etc. there might be some "you sure you're black" stares, but he would be part, moreso than a liberal driving a Prius with a Coexist and Greenpeace stickers. (|->|illary is still tolerated for now but I'd remove them soon, as I wouldn't leave a Trump sticker when going down I-5).

Blogger Salt November 26, 2016 8:11 PM  

And the complexity of real world events is vastly greater than a simulation of a sports league, or a single game.

The historical inevitability at the mean level. No getting around it. Brexit, Trump, and the coming Exits may shift the median a little, but it's coming whether we like it or not. An 1860-level event, indeed.

Blogger tz November 26, 2016 8:13 PM  

The elites forget that not only that they have one vote each, they only have one life to give for their Globalism. And they don't believe there will be Hell to pay.

Blogger Cataline Sergius November 26, 2016 8:17 PM  

I am hoping that Trump can head off the next civil war.

It seems unlikely but that is my hope.

He has drive and he is willing to punch a broken system in the temple. He seems to be listening to good advisers. Maybe that is all that is needed. I hope so.

Still I'm not gambling everything on a happy outcome, there are too many people determined to drive the rocket sled off the side of the cliff.



"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." -- Shepard Book

RIP Ron Glass

Blogger tublecane November 26, 2016 8:18 PM  

Part of the confusion about the fate of the alt-right is over terminology. Because that name refers both to everything outside of the mainstream right and the most popular faction of the the non-mainstream right. The latter is most frequently intended, and a better term for it might be populist right or nationalist right.

Since "alternative right" also includes Nazis and such. Since the alt-right doesn't bother defining itself (because it doesn't care, as it keeps insisting), it's easy for people to confuse it with more extreme, shall we say, elements. But that's only because most people still aren't noticing.

The actual alt-right includes normal people as well as people who spend their days in red pilled sites. More and more normal people will drift over as circumstances get weirder. Which they will.

I say this as a member of the alt-right who's not exactly "alt-right" in the other sense. I like to think of myself as Old Right or paleoconservatuve. But I'm definitely not in the right mainstream, so people could confuse me for the other, too. In which case they might draw the conclusion that the alt-right is doomed. Because my policies are certainly not realistic.

There's also the silly definition of "alt-right," which is anti-PC online troll. Which is the one variety that will never die, so long as there's a (relatively) free internet. The horse is loose; no point closing that barn door.

Blogger Rusty Fife November 26, 2016 8:24 PM  

tublecane wrote:Part of the confusion about the fate of the alt-right is over terminology.

Are we back on this again? You stamp collectors grieve me.

Alt-lite = doesnt care to win
Alt-white = winning + doesn't care about Christianity
Alt-West = winning + Crusades & Inquisition

Blogger Rowe Ford November 26, 2016 8:28 PM  

I thought it was called Baboon Mindframe

Anonymous Walter Oleg November 26, 2016 8:28 PM  

The alt-right isn't dead but I think reasonable men can agree that Nazi related stuff ain't gonna work. I don't believe that Spencer is an enemy operative but do believe he needs to rethink some of his major ideas. The big one is this idea about being "conquerors." All this conqueror stuff, Napoleon worship, and Nietzsche obsession are signs of a lack of humility. And this lack of humility is what lead to the "Hail Trump, Hail Victory, Hail Our People" ending to a damn good conference.

I saw Spencer's interview with Roland Martin and he didn't come off that good. He needs to stop arguing about whether the Egyptians were White or advocating for new Roman Empire. If his concern is White survival then he needs to stay on a consistent message. He need to point out that only White people are expected to have their spaces and institutions forced integrated with the "developing world" and that this will lead to the end of White people. No other people on earth are expected to be blended out of existence and celebrate it while it's happening.

If Roland Martin wants to argue that the ancient Egyptians were black, then say "OK, they were black, so then don't let us White people stand in your way of building the new pyramids. Let us have our own spaces and institutions and you should have the same. WE don't want to keep you down."

I hope Spencer uses this humiliation as an opportunity to learn humility.He's a smart guy, who's done good work, but he needs to rethink some of his fundamental values. Hopefully he can learn that he's "Human, all too human."

Blogger Nate November 26, 2016 8:31 PM  

I don't think any of us are saying the alt-right movement is dead. The brand is not the movement. We've said the brand has taken a big hit.

And it has.

Death blow? To soon to say.

Anonymous Babydoc November 26, 2016 8:33 PM  

If the GOPe hadn't used every lame cuck excuse for refusing to stop any of Obama's leftist overreach, the Alt-Right wouldn't have gained so much strength. First, they claimed there was nothing they could do because the left controlled both houses of Congress and the White House. Voters gave them rhe House in 2010, rhen they whined they still couldn't do anything with Reid controlling the Senate. So in 2014 we gave them control of rhe Senate, and other than blocking Garland's SCOTUS nomination, they don't seem to have done anything to stop leftist overreach.

So it is utterly laughable now that Trump has been elected in spite of NeverTrumper treachery, that these same elitists who tried desperately to derail Trump's campaign are now pushing Romney and other NeverTrumpers as cabinet members.

Here's hoping Trump doesn't give in.

Anonymous Eric the Red November 26, 2016 8:36 PM  

http://www.breitbart.com/california/2016/11/26/sanctuary-california-faces-immigration-defunding-bankruptcy/

"The Department of Justice’s Inspector General (IG) issued a memorandum in August that advised that sanctuary city practices violate federal law. The IG finding empowers Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-AL), if confirmed as U.S. Attorney General, to strip sanctuary cities — including New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Washington, D.C. — of certain federal law enforcement grants. He can also seek court orders to strip federal grants from any government entities refusing to comply with U.S. laws."

The Obama administration has just handed Trump a YUGE weapon to be used against leftists who up to now have been ensconced in government. And Obama has also provided precedents about ginning up marginal loopholes to circumvent the letter of the law. Now all Trump has to do is direct Sessions to withhold funding as punishment for not carrying out some directive or other, and POOF! there goes the Department of Education down the proverbial drain, out into the sewer where it belongs.

Oh the joy... Trump is the gift that just keeps on giving.

Blogger Nate November 26, 2016 8:37 PM  

now what would be a definitive blow to the brand is if the accusations of Spencer's quid pro quo are proven legitimate. If they are... then I don't know how you come back from that since the name is so closely associated with Spencer.

Blogger Wanderer November 26, 2016 8:38 PM  

The thing that bothers me the most in all of this is that the retarded Nazi LARPers still think that all of this was a victory. Strategy and tactics are for cucks, apparently. We can just brute force our way to victory by sieg heiling like retards and alienating all normies.

Blogger Rusty Fife November 26, 2016 8:39 PM  

Nate wrote:now what would be a definitive blow to the brand is if the accusations of Spencer's quid pro quo are proven legitimate.

What is this?

Anonymous BGKB November 26, 2016 8:43 PM  

Clinton Foundation "Pay For Play". Then there's the collapse of the Mainstream Media. And then... so much stuff to keep track of. I need a drink.

Here watch Crooked Eye Clinton celebrate winning the presidency. She had it taped earlier incase she was not healthy enough to be seen http://www.thedailysheeple.com/leaked-video-is-this-hillarys-pre-taped-election-night-celebration-that-never-was_112016

It's been a year of black swans. Like someone was breeding them

I so hated when that movie came out, I kept being tricked into thinking gays were holding intelligent conversations.

they have one vote each, they only have one life to give for their Globalism. And they don't believe there will be Hell to pay

I just had the greatest idea for my game show. Lengths of chain that are red hot in the middle.

Anonymous Scintan November 26, 2016 8:43 PM  

Nate wrote:I don't think any of us are saying the alt-right movement is dead. The brand is not the movement. We've said the brand has taken a big hit.

And it has.

Death blow? To soon to say.


As I said in an earlier thread, and still believe to be true, Spencer's done. Cernovich put it well, I thought, when he said: "It's folly beyond measure.".

I don't know if it's fatal to all of alt-right, but the label is now poison.

This incident, by the way, can serve as an excellent example of how bad allies are often worse than no allies at all.

Anonymous Dark November 26, 2016 8:45 PM  

@19 Hey it worked for the Nazis ! And what a fine time for Europe that was ...I really dont understand the Nazi larping its bizarre considering all the negative baggage and ya know the fact they were massive failures who hated a large part of the white population's of Europe whats the benefits of parroting them ? even as a meme/joke.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 26, 2016 8:46 PM  

The left has the mind of a woman, if tweaked off the reaction is small minded, petty and vindictive. Now with Hillary and gals majorly tweaked, they will burn it all down.

In short, shit's rolling down hill regardless of our wishes

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents November 26, 2016 8:52 PM  

@11 tubalcane
Part of the confusion about the fate of the alt-right is over terminology.

Feature, not bug. .

Blogger Deadmau5 Patton November 26, 2016 8:53 PM  

"We've said the brand has taken a big hit." We've taken similar sized hits, but not from the inside. This was the first sucker punch from an "ally" so far.

Blogger praetorian November 26, 2016 8:53 PM  

You can tell how scary the dark, awful truth of identity politics is to people slowly moving through the alt-lite by how quickly they took this opportunity to virtue signal against it.

I understand. I didn't want it to be this way either.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan November 26, 2016 8:55 PM  

Hillary burn it all Clinton on the warpath I hazard a guess that the fence that conservatives are sitting on gets torched first sending many the alt-right way.

So no the alt-right is not dead, but maybe at least for lulz we can feed the idiot alt white fame whores into the media meat grinder, and maybe a few alt-feys as well

Anonymous Eric the Red November 26, 2016 8:56 PM  

Spencer made a mistake, but the alt-right can recover by making leftist fears of Naziism into a caricature of paranoia. Go over the top, set up a "naziphobia" meme that elicits contempt and ridicule from the normie population.

The left has been doing this for years about vicious orthodox mohammedism, shutting down any rational discussion by screaming "islamophobia" at every opportunity. Time for the alt-right to return the favor, in spades.

Blogger dfordoom November 26, 2016 8:59 PM  

7. tz

If someone who is black or Asian came here, wore a MAGA cap, Knew guns and went hunting, etc. there might be some "you sure you're black" stares, but he would be part, moreso than a liberal driving a Prius with a Coexist and Greenpeace stickers.

Anyone who drives a Prius should be automatically deported. If no-one else will take them send them to Canada.

Blogger tz November 26, 2016 9:03 PM  

No, those are white swans who identify as black.

Blogger Al From Bay Shore November 26, 2016 9:03 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Takin' a Look November 26, 2016 9:07 PM  

Man, what a bunch of cucked out paper tigers here.

Does the Left ever apologize?
Have they apologized for (((Tim Wise)))?
Have they apologized for Todd Nickerson?
Have they apologized for gay wedding cakes?
Have they apologized for Zoe Quinn?
Have they apologized for Deplorables?
Have they apologized for Spirit Cooking?
Have they apologized for massive Immavasion?
Have they apologized for a damned thing?

No? Then what is the problem?

Blogger Nate November 26, 2016 9:08 PM  

"Or restrict the voting to people who are net contributors rather than net takers."

Something I've been saying for a long time. Some people do more harm than good.

Blogger Al From Bay Shore November 26, 2016 9:08 PM  

@21, I peeped that video. I was like... "How'd that hoe know that 'ish' so early?" The Clintons are shady mofos. The days when La Cosa Nostra ran "ish" seem infinitely better. R.I.C.O. is appearing to be a power play effected by America's national government to seize control instead of effecting "good" or fighting criminal activity. I'm not tryna' endorse those dudes but it seems the Clintons were merely gov't influences replacing organized crime.

Anonymous Wyrd November 26, 2016 9:11 PM  

How to tell if you are dead, you will start voting democrat.

My biggest fear of dying is I'll become a Democrat.

Blogger LES November 26, 2016 9:12 PM  

The conditions that created the need for the alt-right have not changed. When whites become a minority in their own country they will learn identity politics real quick. They've seen how it's done.

Anonymous Northern Refugee November 26, 2016 9:16 PM  

Spencer forgot that we are still a guerilla movement, and guerilla movements, from the VC to the IRA, didn't win by attcking the enemy directly, but by steadily undermining their authority and legitimacy. We've done a good job de-legitimizing the establishment with memes and rhetoric. This is our strength. We've done more in 18 months with social media memes that Conservatism Inc did in 30 years with magazines and think tanks. Trying to out media the media was a major tactical error. Spencer needs to take the Voxday/Roosh approach. Build his alternative platforms, and steer clear of the MSM.

Blogger VD November 26, 2016 9:17 PM  

I don't think any of us are saying the alt-right movement is dead. The brand is not the movement. We've said the brand has taken a big hit.

It hasn't. It hasn't even been scratched. The only people saying that badly want to substitute their own brand for it. It's not even remotely convincing.

If the brand is dead or damaged, then you should be able to build up your own without any trouble. The mere fact that people are still discussing the brand proves it is relevant.

I cannot believe the focus on this petty micro stuff that no one will remember in a year.

Blogger dfordoom November 26, 2016 9:18 PM  

@34. Nate

"Or restrict the voting to people who are net contributors rather than net takers."

Good idea. Anyone who lives off the taxpayer loses the vote. That means everyone in the military for starters. And cops. And firemen. Everyone who works for the government. Also everyone who works for a business that mostly relies on government contracts - so no vote if you work for Lockheed Martin.

Anonymous Discard November 26, 2016 9:19 PM  

Most people have never heard of this Spencer. The Nazi accusations will just be accounted as more media BS, like Trayvon the Sainted Innocent and whatever other grievance du jour the frogs come up with.

Blogger tz November 26, 2016 9:19 PM  

The Alt-Right isn't dead, but when you set the ovens so they go into a self-cleaning cycle, it might smell that way.

Blogger Al From Bay Shore November 26, 2016 9:20 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger VD November 26, 2016 9:21 PM  

I don't know how you come back from that since the name is so closely associated with Spencer.

Come on. Do you know the name of the guy who named the Nazi party? Or the Whig party? Or even the Republican party? No, of course not.

Blogger tz November 26, 2016 9:24 PM  

Suffrage is a complex topic. Wyoming was first, but any woman who survived the winters, the bears and pumas, and the Indians was probably worthy.

The error was in destroying Federalism. Let each state decide who should or should not have the right to vote, as long as it follows the rule of law - Test? same for black, white, man, woman. Property or tax payer, same thing.

Anonymous Northern Refugee November 26, 2016 9:27 PM  

The alt-right is more than just one man. It represents an awakening of white identity. The very fact that this is being discussed widely and in explicit terms for the first time in 2 generations tells you that we are dealing with a massive political and social re-alignment. For the first time in my lifetime, whites voted their self-interest, first in Brexit, then Trump, and soon in Italy and (hopefully) France. This is a new phenomenon. It will take more than a media firestorm to quell. Now, we need to bare in mind nothing is set in stone, and we should utilize effective tactics. Inviting the media to your event and acting foolishly is ineffective, to say the least.

Blogger Orville November 26, 2016 9:28 PM  

Per Nate I don't think any of us are saying the alt-right movement is dead. The brand is not the movement. We've said the brand has taken a big hit. I'd agree and throw out this analogy that this current movement is an automobile. Spencer "may" have made the brand Alt-right the Yugo of movement but another brand name will float up at some point for the exact same movement. However, to take a page from the PUA, if someone tags you with the alt-right label, you can jokingly agree and amplify and just shrug off that label while pressing on.

The thing is that the zeitgeist is not a brand, is not a label. It is a societal mood and set of beliefs which exist beyond the label, and the actors as Vox said above. In the week immediately before and after the election, I sensed a huge shift. Just looking at the election results by map at the county level, you can see the shift. But it's more than just that. There are articles about how much hope has increased now that Hope and Change is nearly out of office and Trump is nearly in. I see the shift too in the MSM in open warfare with the new mood and message. Let the future historians worry about the labeling.

Blogger Can't wait November 26, 2016 9:28 PM  

My last comment: PJW & Cernobitch should not speak on what they do not know. Signing off.

Anonymous Eumaios November 26, 2016 9:37 PM  

My thoughts exactly. Well put.

Blogger wreckage November 26, 2016 9:42 PM  

Alt-right is rooted in everyone on the right who's sick of losing, sick of anti-white, sick of anti-male, and sick to fucking death of voting right only to have the bastards reposition to the left of the left.

Which ultimately, is almost everyone on the right, which in turn is a bit north of 50% of the population.

It's not dead. It's not even injured. The only people who care about Spencer already thought everyone to the right of Karl Marx was a Nazi anyway.

We're winning. They're scared.

Blogger wreckage November 26, 2016 9:43 PM  

@46. Nationalism is back, baby. About damn time.

Blogger Lazarus November 26, 2016 9:47 PM  

What I notice is that the MSM has learned nothing. If everybody just keeps doing what they were doing before the Spencer incident, it should still be successful.

When one starts worrying about the "brand", the next thing you know there will be "meetings", and no one wants THAT.

no meetings

Anonymous Ironsides November 26, 2016 9:48 PM  

The media has one big disadvantage: they've been screaming "Nazi" and "Hitler" almost as frequently as "racist" and "toxic masculinity."

I sincerely doubt that Joe Shmoe is going to be able to tell one gargling shriek of "Nazi! Nazi! Nazi!" from another. They were yelling "Nazi!" They're still yelling "Nazi!" I doubt most of the public even realizes anything was supposed to have changed.

Anonymous Marvin Boggs November 26, 2016 9:50 PM  

@34: I've been saying for years that "No taxation without representation" is incomplete. It really ought to be "No taxation without representation, no representation without taxation." If you're not contributing to society, you ought not have a say in how society is run.

Anonymous Slowpoke November 26, 2016 9:50 PM  

Gab is down. Is this a known issue or enemy action?

Blogger S1AL November 26, 2016 9:53 PM  

"It hasn't. It hasn't even been scratched. The only people saying that badly want to substitute their own brand for it. It's not even remotely convincing."

I disagree with both you and Nate here. Looking at the reactions across the board, Nazi shenanigans are the breaking point for the 70% of the population that identifies as conservative or moderate.

Yes, yes, it's all well-and-good to say that one needs to protect one's extremists - for 95% of the people amenable to the alt-right, Nazis will *never* be "their extremists". There are too many people with parents and grandparents and great-grandparents who fought in the war or escaped Germany or left before it happened. Nazis will *always* be the enemy.

And, of course, the Nazi brand is a terrible, loser brand.

Now, contra Nate, this is not that big of a deal. "An awful lot of press for 200 losers" if a workable response.

That said, this will probably happen again, and again, and again. At which point the alt-right *will* split. And the Nazi side always be the tiny side, and it will get the boot, because numbers matter and rhetoric matters.

That's what I meant when I said in a previous thread that this is a fracture: there was already an issue, and this is a stressor applied right across the divide. Sometimes going to give, eventually.

Anonymous Steveo November 26, 2016 9:53 PM  

OT: Sorry...

Gab.ai offline? google gives nothing. Brave gives: We will be back. (text only) ?

Blogger Tina November 26, 2016 9:56 PM  

#39 VD "It hasn't. It hasn't even been scratched."

That's correct. (Posting before watching the video) Alt-Right is a cute name. I can't be the only one who ended up with a sidebar full of alt-right blogs just because I agreed with much of what I was reading and hearing, without having a clue about the slang or the "movement" or its various outfields.

Aren't the people in media and politics who are waxing rhapsodic over and mourning Fidel Castro, the same ones who tried to "gotcha" President Trump with a fun new word "Alt-Right" because a couple of goofs hollered "Hail" after having too many drinks at a little regional conference?

The gotcha failed and we all saw President Trump narrow his eyes. For all of his honest disavowal of violent extremes, he was not narrowing his eyes at the Alt-Right.

Americans may not say anything but they, too, are noticing that Who's Who are crying over the wrong people. Americans and President Trump see the same thing. Two more of my very respectable regular reads have just this week sort of embraced the term, dabbing a toe in the water, giving it their own individual spin.

Anonymous Eric the Red November 26, 2016 10:01 PM  

Regardless of whether Spencer made a mistake, the left and their henchmen lügenpresse will continue to beat the Nazi drum until such time as it's effectively countered. If the alt-right doesn't do that, nobody else will.

Anonymous Northern Refugee November 26, 2016 10:04 PM  

#59
The proper response, as per Roosh, is Fuck You. That being said, don't put yourself in that situation. Don't challenge a superios adversary head on. The IRA learned that lesson in 1916, and changed their tactics. In 1922, Ireland was free. We should learn the same lesson.

Blogger the bandit November 26, 2016 10:06 PM  

S1AL wrote:"An awful lot of press for 200 losers" [is] a workable response.
It's worked for me.

You can also hit them with the ISIS-Islam comparison.

Anonymous Sharrukin November 26, 2016 10:07 PM  

59. Eric the Red

"Regardless of whether Spencer made a mistake, the left and their henchmen lügenpresse will continue to beat the Nazi drum until such time as it's effectively countered. If the alt-right doesn't do that, nobody else will."

Exactly.

We will all soon be Nazis if that works for the left the same way we were all racists and sexists, etc when that worked.

Anonymous #8601 November 26, 2016 10:07 PM  

There is a massive wave of nationalism that is sweeping the Western world. Folks like Donald Trump and Nigel Farage are deftly riding the wave so far. Others like Richard Spencer are getting caught in its undertow.

But one thing is certain. The wave is coming like a tsunami and nobody can stop it.

Anonymous Vermithrax Pejorative November 26, 2016 10:07 PM  

If someone brings up Spencer, laugh at them.

Just remind them Obama's terrorist buddy Bill Ayers wanted to genocide 25 million Americans and that was okay. He wanted to do this in the middle of the Cold War when the communists really were committing genocide everywhere they took over. They made the Nazis look like amateurs.

So now they're pissing in their pants over a few LARPing spergs?

Mock them. And talk about left-wing genocide.

Blogger wreckage November 26, 2016 10:08 PM  

So it's time for an alt-right diaspora. For people who aren't inside the current alt-right to declare themselves alt-right, and produce manifestos for "the alt-right" as they see it.

Remember, no leaders, no "thought leaders". Formlessness!

Sun Tzu is vindicated; that which had form was attacked, that which approaches formlessness cannot be attacked, countered, or spied upon.

Blogger The Other Robot November 26, 2016 10:10 PM  

Sore losers trying to win another way: Electoral voters 'deluged' with death threats in multiple states

Anonymous Sharrukin November 26, 2016 10:12 PM  

60. Northern Refugee

"Don't challenge a superios adversary head on."

The blacks do. The Muslims do. The Hispanics do. The Jews do (and help others do it for them).

Their political voice far exceeds anything you would expect from their population size.

Maybe we can learn something from them in the political field because up til now they having been kicking our asses.

Blogger S1AL November 26, 2016 10:14 PM  

"Mock them. And talk about left-wing genocide."

This has been very useful. People mention David Duke? Rebut with American Communist Party. They say "Nazis"? You say Hitler's the Twentieth Century's junior league compared to Socialists.

Note that this doesn't work when there's a spin. Media dog piles are real.

Blogger SamuraiJack November 26, 2016 10:15 PM  

My daily news consists of Vox, PJW, Cern, Drudge, Infowars, etc. I guess that makes me a thought criminal/Russian agent. I still haven't got my paycheck from Putin though. I hope it comes before Christmas

Anonymous VFMUltra November 26, 2016 10:15 PM  

@Steveo

I'm getting the same. WTF?

Blogger S1AL November 26, 2016 10:15 PM  

I should also point out that this only works if you're willing to attack Nazis, too. You're not going to redeem their memory. It's "ours are bad, yours are far worse".

Anonymous Eric the Red November 26, 2016 10:16 PM  

#60...

But that's precisely what I mean when I say that only the alt-right can effectively counter it. I didn't say 'meet it head-on'. The alt-right is effective because its a loose conglomeration of guerrilla fighters. "Fuck it" is certainly a fine response, but using GG as analogy, branding someone Hitler or a Nazi is not going away on its own.

Anonymous Enrique November 26, 2016 10:19 PM  

Does the Alt-right have this weak disposition? That as soon as the media hits anyone within the AR, they start talking about folding like some I've seen in the last week or two? We should do exactly what the Left does, deny, demand explanations of those making the assertions, question their motives, background and psychological stability, project back, expand the demographic they are "insulting", demand apologies, meme it, etc etc.

Many of you may think this isn't practical or is silly, but most of the population, including the cucked, are not going to be persuaded by reason (e.g. "Actually, he was raising his glass, and it was about 2-3 others giving a Roman salute in a sort of self-ironic fashion...").

Instead:

Them (anyone, media, an individual): "What's up with the Nazi stuff?"
Us: What Nazi stuff?
Them: the Heil Hitler crap
Us: That's the Roman salute, part of our collective European culture
Them: [Laughing] Uhm, ok, that looks like, Literally Hitler
Us: Wow. Just. Wow. so a group of White people meeting is now "Literally Hitler"
Them: I didn't say that !
Us: Why do you hate White people?
Them: Who? You are the ones throwing Hitler stuff around
Us: So now, Italians...who come from the Romans, are racissss and White people being in DC is racist?
Them: I didn't say that...
Us: You totally said that...you are like, literally Chairman Mao here...why do you hate women and children so much, what about healthy white people freaks a rich white liberal like you, out so much? Gosh (shaking head)...you progs really hate. You know, do your co-workers know how you feel about Italians, stay at home moms who HAPPEN to be white, and that you hate the idea of people exercising their 1st amendment rights?

You owe an apology....

Anonymous Northern Refugee November 26, 2016 10:19 PM  

"The blacks do. The Muslims do. The Hispanics do. The Jews do (and help others do it for them)."

They have the media, the state and the business class on their side. They ARE the establishment. Don't believe me? Criticize a black employee at work, see where it gets you. Just because they are numerically inferior doesn't mean they don't have the entire social/political/economic establishment behind them. We clearly are the guerillas in this culture war. We need to act accordingly.

Blogger Retrenched November 26, 2016 10:21 PM  

Looks like Gab is back now.

Anonymous Malwyn's apprentice November 26, 2016 10:22 PM  

I've been splashing in the shallow end of the alt-right pool for about a year, and one of the first things I realized is that alt-right is a yuge tent. My immediate reaction to stories about Spencer's antics was to shrug; yuge tent means yuge tent. Sure, some people will be offended, but alt-right is too disparate to be identified with a single person.

An 1860-level event could take place in as few as four years from now
As the election season drew to a close, I felt like I was enveloped in a miasma of fear. Trump's win has pushed that back a bit, and given me time to get organized, but I still see that cloud on the horizon. Maybe I will add a bomb shelter to the house that I'll be building ...

Anonymous Northern Refugee November 26, 2016 10:25 PM  

"We should do exactly what the Left does, deny, demand explanations of those making the assertions, question their motives, background and psychological stability, project back, expand the demographic they are "insulting", demand apologies, meme it, etc etc. "

The left can get away with that because, as Sailer notes", they hold the megaphone. They control the commanding heights of culture, academia and business. We do not. Thus, we have to be more, eh, judicious.

Anonymous Eric the Red November 26, 2016 10:27 PM  

Attempting to counter a charge of Naziism by pointing out leftist parallels/hypocrisy has never worked, will never work, because leftist ideology does not depend on objective values. You might as well throw water at a duck, the effect or lack thereof will be exactly the same.

Blogger ace November 26, 2016 10:28 PM  

Hold onto your asses, alt-right. We have made contact with the enemy.

Blogger S1AL November 26, 2016 10:35 PM  

"Attempting to counter a charge of Naziism by pointing out leftist parallels/hypocrisy has never worked, will never work, because leftist ideology does not depend on objective values. You might as well throw water at a duck, the effect or lack thereof will be exactly the same."

Your goal is not too convince the left. That's not the point. You don't care about what that third of the population thinks. You care about the other two-thirds.

Anonymous Sharrukin November 26, 2016 10:36 PM  

74. Northern Refugee

"They have the media, the state and the business class on their side. They ARE the establishment."

And how did that come about? They got there by fighting and making even the mildest push back against them a painful experience. The REAL Nazis? Some way in Germany. Communists in Russia. Same road to power. The left in the US used the same though milder tactics.

We clearly are the guerillas in this culture war. We need to act accordingly.

We can do both. Same way they did. Provos and Sinn Fein. The left had and still does have connections to extreme radical groups. Obama had connections to Wright and Bill Ayers.

The left REALLY doesn't care. Maybe we could adopt that as a motto or something?

Blogger Casher O'Neill November 26, 2016 10:39 PM  

@15 @18 Nate seems right. Name/brand is damaged because Spencer (much more successfully than VD or any other individual) owned it, due to media cooperation ( http://thefederalist.com/2016/11/22/dear-media-please-dont-normalize-alt-right/ ). The historical movement the name identified is not dead.

Since PJW and Mike understand the new media game much, much better than most of their critics, they distanced themselves from the name like it was poison.

Audacious Epigone has noted the public effect of the association as far as information transmission goes ( http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2016/11/if-all-publicity-is-good-publicity.html ) Alt-right = roman salute = neo-Nazi hover-hand over Tia Tequila

This gets us to the point where VD @44 is wrong in his comparison. NSDAP was a party, alt-right was not. It was more of a zeitgeist (as Orville @47 says ) like the Tea Party was. The "alt-right party" has entered our collective memory (Google, the majority have no other) as neo-Nazi. VD can safely continue building a theory and program for the movement, but maybe should do so under a new untarnished name.

Blogger Nate November 26, 2016 10:41 PM  

"It hasn't. It hasn't even been scratched. "

Look mate with all due respect there are more Trump voters on my block than in your whole country.

To the rank and file Trump supporter... the name alt-right was something that dug after hillary's Deplorables speech. They didn't understand it... but they instinctively knew that if it pissed hillary off that much it must be a good thing.

Now... those same Trump supporters are fully associating the Alt-Right with Nazis. And they are putting out memes bashing the alt-right.

That's not nothing. That's a hit.

We can count the ways its a hit. Its hit because we're talking about this bullshit instead of what Trump wants to talk about. its a hit because InfoWars and Cernovich and God knows who else are now spending their time attacking Spencer instead of attacking the MSM. Its a hit because it takes everyone's eye off the ball.

Further evidence.

Google trends shows a big spike for the term "Alt-Right" in the last week. That's good right?

no.

Because it shows the exact same spike for "alt right nazi".

now... we're not nazis. so none of this matters to us. Hell the people throwing up the salutes aren't nazis. even if they do where pink swastika panties. They're still just larping.

But I see no benefit in denying that a blow was struck. I mean you're sitting here with a broken nose saying you didn't get hit.

its silly.

Anonymous Enrique November 26, 2016 10:42 PM  

I don't recommend anyone try the whole double-standards route, I prefer to use their same tactics, at work, in a private conversations (when they are asking for it), with whomever. Obviously, context matters, but I think the tides are changing.

I just had a similar, unexpected run in with a fellow white collar (((professional))) I had to deal with on a personal issue. I made sure to hit every note with her, "as a veteran, a Hispanic, a descendant of immigrants" etc. She was SO USED to playing the elitist liberal card that once she saw I was playing it back, and playing it well, she of course dropped the whole "well, as a Jew I'm concerned about..." I ran it right back, amplified, counter-accused, did the whole "you people just don't get it" (implied "knuckle dragging, cave-dweller" theme with the patronizing shaking of the head). And the whole "wow, just wow, you are really scary...do a lot of people in your circles think like you? My wife and I always tell our children that they are going to grow up with such hate... all that. Every implied accusation, every semi-dramatic head nod, body language, everything.

I grew up with the Left in my household, and in and around their circles, they LOVE to do this Dr. Freidman "And how long have you been hearing these voices" stuff...nothing drives them more insane than to play legit hard-to-defend-against cards right back, with the same mindset. Questioning their sanity, virtue, sincerity and motives.

"Well, [hard to my heart] speaking as a bilingual, Hispanic, veteran with small children...I admit, you are frightening...do you ALSO want to bomb brown people in Iran like Hilary said..you can Youtube it...I mean, surely you don't have THAT much hate..."

Not every counter-attack will be in the same forum or require the same tools, but it IS TIME to grab the megaphone and shout back.

Blogger Casher O'Neill November 26, 2016 10:42 PM  

@67 They don't, they merely incite those who for the moment have the whip hand over us: USG

Anonymous Ironsides November 26, 2016 10:43 PM  

Northern Refugee wrote:"We should do exactly what the Left does, deny, demand explanations of those making the assertions, question their motives, background and psychological stability, project back, expand the demographic they are "insulting", demand apologies, meme it, etc etc. "

The left can get away with that because, as Sailer notes", they hold the megaphone. They control the commanding heights of culture, academia and business. We do not. Thus, we have to be more, eh, judicious.


While I think Spencer's stuff was pointless and kind of dumb, "judicious" doesn't look like this, either.

At the moment, a fair number of Alt-Right writers seem to be using all their energy wringing their hands and debating whether or not the Alt-Right is "finished," "dead," or whatever. What on Earth this is supposed to accomplish seems totally opaque.

As is pointed out, the Alt-Right is decentralized. Nobody has any power to "shut down" or "discipline" other participants in it. It's formless and has no head, which is one of its major strengths. So what, exactly, is this internal jabbering going to accomplish? Spencer has presumably already received the opinions of anyone he's likely to even possibly listen to, and will now decide ON HIS OWN what he's going to do. And nobody else in the Alt-Right has any power to change that.

All this on and on and on about SaluteGate seems like it's just giving free press to our enemies' perspective. Reminding people over and over again what a huge, damaging, maybe fatal mistake Spencer made.

If a normie gets curious about the Alt-Right and visits a few sites right now, what are they going to see? "We're doomed!" "The Alt-Right is finished!" "Spencer has killed the Alt-Right brand!" etc. etc. This is NOT talk that is likely to persuade anyone to give the Alt-Right any further attention; a movement that spends its time blaring through its megaphones that it's done for, shattered, discredited, etc. isn't going to look like a winning horse someone might want to back.

It doesn't matter if we don't have the megaphone. Spencer is something nobody can do anything about. Not Vox. Not Cernovich. Not Anglin. Nobody. "He will do what he do do, and there's nothing you can do about it."

Right now, standing around yelling "We're doomed! We're not doomed! We're sunk! We're not sunk!" is counterproductive. Spencer is a loose cannon that cannot be corralled in a leaderless movement. It seems smarter to just ignore him, IMO, since there's nothing that can be done about him anyway, and start tearing the Left a new one again.

Did the Leftists start publishing stuff like "Is Globalism doomed? Is Social Justice irrevocably tainted by PizzaGate?" No, they continue to attack the White and the Right.

Quit giving press to NaziGate. Quit wasting energy twirling around in angst over Spencer. Get out there and let the memetic or rhetorical fist meet the jaw of those vile, scum-sucking leftists.

Blogger PepperGrinder November 26, 2016 10:43 PM  

I used to think you were intelligent, Vox. I read The Irrational Athiest, what feels like a decade ago, and I thought your arguments were sound. Now in researching something that has come across my desk in the last few months since DJT's rise in popularity, The Alt Right, I have found that you are engaged in a sort of apologetic role within that culture. I read through your proposed philosophies or core principals and was truly taken aback by how far you've slipped intellectually. The core philosophies you're espousing are also so beyond the core philosophies of Christ and the Christian faith, that I have to wonder whether you've become delusional about you mental prowess in deduction and reason and that you've started to believe a lie. I'll gloss over the first 3 points of your philosophies for now as they're not the ones that really bother me. Picking up from point 4.As a Christian, do you truly believe that Christianity is a human achievement? According to the bible (1 Eph 2:8-9) it is through grace we have been saved, not through works. Really, from that point onward your arguments are sad and tired. All I'll say is I'm praying for you. May you find your way back to a right relationship with God.

Anonymous Eric the Red November 26, 2016 10:45 PM  

@80...

Personally I have only a vague idea of what the other 2/3's of the population is thinking or believing at any point in time.

What I do know is this: Even if you're a guerrilla fighter, you won't have much success defeating the enemy if you never bring the fight to them.

Blogger Ezekiel November 26, 2016 10:47 PM  

PepperGrinder wrote:I used to think you were intelligent, Vox. I read The Irrational Athiest, what feels like a decade ago, and I thought your arguments were sound. Now in researching something that has come across my desk in the last few months since DJT's rise in popularity, The Alt Right, I have found that you are engaged in a sort of apologetic role within that culture. I read through your proposed philosophies or core principals and was truly taken aback by how far you've slipped intellectually. The core philosophies you're espousing are also so beyond the core philosophies of Christ and the Christian faith, that I have to wonder whether you've become delusional about you mental prowess in deduction and reason and that you've started to believe a lie. I'll gloss over the first 3 points of your philosophies for now as they're not the ones that really bother me. Picking up from point 4.As a Christian, do you truly believe that Christianity is a human achievement? According to the bible (1 Eph 2:8-9) it is through grace we have been saved, not through works. Really, from that point onward your arguments are sad and tired. All I'll say is I'm praying for you. May you find your way back to a right relationship with God.
Fuck you, go to church.

Blogger S1AL November 26, 2016 10:48 PM  

Concern troll is concerned for your soul, Vox! Doesn't that just set you back on the path of fear and trembling?

Also, is "I used to like you" just a direct troll tell?

Blogger Nate November 26, 2016 10:51 PM  

"Now, contra Nate, this is not that big of a deal. "An awful lot of press for 200 losers" if a workable response."

I've not said its a big deal. I'm saying a blow was struck. I've never said it was a death blow or it was time to abandon anything. Was it a jab? Was it a jaw breaking uppercut? I have no idea.

I'm just saying the public perception of the brand today is worse than it was 3 weeks ago.

I'm by no means saying it cannot be recovered.

Frankly I am confused as all hell as to why the alt-right and alt-light are focusing so much on this.

I guarantee you there is something Vox and I agree on here... Gamergate would not have handled things this way.

Anonymous Northern Refugee November 26, 2016 10:52 PM  

"Its a hit because it takes everyone's eye off the ball."

Yup. It is a teachable moment. Don't deal with the MSM. Build your own platform. Attack and de-legitimize. Don't walk into traps. Now, let's get back to work. I'll be redpilling, as best I can, at a family gathering tomorrow. There's a couple guys at work I am pulling into alt-right websites and literature. I loaned my copy of Cuckservative to a Chaplain I know. Etc.

Blogger tz November 26, 2016 10:54 PM  

Richard Spencer interviewed about NPI in the 2nd hour.

(Note: I also have Democracy Now in my RSS feed as well as other leftist things, I probably should just subscribe to all the "fake news" sites WaPo listed - I did Naked Capitalism a while ago, but unsubscribed, maybe time to revisit?)

Anonymous Sharrukin November 26, 2016 10:54 PM  

87. PepperGrinder

Couldn't you at least try to make some sort of intellectual argument?

A sloppy, and overly long appeal to emotions isn't much of a substitute.

Blogger Lazarus November 26, 2016 10:54 PM  

Nate wrote:We can count the ways its a hit. Its hit because we're talking about this bullshit instead of what Trump wants to talk about. its a hit because InfoWars and Cernovich and God knows who else are now spending their time attacking Spencer instead of attacking the MSM. Its a hit because it takes everyone's eye off the ball.

To be fair, Cernovich pointed out in the above video that the "fake news" attack is more important because of its intent to de-platform more effective and popular voices than Spencer's.

Blogger Nate November 26, 2016 10:55 PM  

I would argue the right play is to do what the left does. Whenever you bring up the radicals on the left and what damage they do... the left pivots and starts talking about how the mistakes of the right have created an environment that creates extremists.

We should be doing the same thing. When they bring up nazis... we should be pointing out that the horrible economic reality facing the american worker... and pointing out how its the mistaks of the globalist left over and over and over that create this climate that forces people to turn to extremism for solutions.

Use it as a chance to shoot at the enemy.

Blogger S1AL November 26, 2016 10:55 PM  

"Personally I have only a vague idea of what the other 2/3's of the population is thinking or believing at any point in time.

What I do know is this: Even if you're a guerrilla fighter, you won't have much success defeating the enemy if you never bring the fight to them."

Well I'd recommend you try, you know, asking.

That said, you're not thinking about this in the right terms. You don't beat the left by attacking them; you beat the left by convincing everyone else that they're in the wrong. This is in "Rhetoric": you must first convince the audience that you agree on issues of morality.

It's a battle of perception. If the left sells you as a Nazi, you lose territory in the form of moral credibility.

As a point of comparison, look at the effectiveness of "I don't support any socialists... National, Soviet, or Democratic." Flip the script.

Blogger Nate November 26, 2016 10:56 PM  

"To be fair, Cernovich pointed out in the above video that the "fake news" attack is more important because of its intent to de-platform more effective and popular voices than Spencer's."

I don't understand Cernovich's play here. I really don't. So I am not going to comment on it other than to say I don't think it does us any good to be yelling at each other about it... we should be yelling at the globalists.

Anonymous Ironsides November 26, 2016 10:57 PM  

Nate wrote:
Frankly I am confused as all hell as to why the alt-right and alt-light are focusing so much on this.


Agreed. You're right that the Alt-Right took a hit.

But why are they standing around yelling over and over and over that they took a hit? The Spartans wore red cloaks so that both their friends and enemies couldn't see they were bleeding for a reason.

This is starting to seem like deliberately bleeding on a white flag and then hoisting it on a staff so that everyone can see you are indeed injured. What the hell?

Anonymous Enrique November 26, 2016 10:59 PM  

NOT ONE INCH should be given.

Casual Liberal Friend: I see you Trump guys like Hitler..

Me: Oh that? Ya, weird...I was surprised Keith Ellison wasn't there, since he worships Farrakhan...it's like, "let the anti-semitic stuff go already!...hey, are you guys going to actually PUT a guy like Ellison in charge of the DNC...it's one thing to hate women, but to support killing..what is it your guy calls them? bloodsuckers or whatever..."

FUCKING DISARM, RE-DIRECT, COUNTER-ACCUSE, UNDERCUT, and keep the cycle going...

"anyhow...can you pass me the sugar, this coffee is STRONG! what did you think of the Conor fight man! Shut that bigot down! Talking about Conor's accent...sheesh. Ignorance..."

blah blah blah. DO NOT GIVE ONE INCH TO THESE PEOPLE. For years they have run roughshod over every one, making every conversation about race, gender, income-inequality, whatever. When you have a friend or co-worker that is like this, do it RIGHT BACK.

Anonymous Mark Auld November 26, 2016 10:59 PM  

Good points.I'm an old fart and I'm still learning and hey,that's why I'm here,isn't it?

Blogger Nate November 26, 2016 10:59 PM  

"Quit giving press to NaziGate."

NaziGhazi. We're not babyboomers.

Anonymous Northern Refugee November 26, 2016 10:59 PM  

"I don't understand Cernovich's play here. I really don't. "

He's trying to sell books. It really is that simple.

Anonymous Eric the Red November 26, 2016 11:05 PM  

@97...

Huh ??? Asking who about what ???

Whatever you're recommending, is it the same thing that won GG ??? Because it certainly doesn't sound like it to me.

Blogger Casher O'Neill November 26, 2016 11:06 PM  

@100 NOT ONE INCH should be given

Roman salutes and fashy looks aren't the only thing alt-right people are embracing from NSDAP. Pro-tip, even in conventional war that doesn't work well.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad

Blogger Nate November 26, 2016 11:06 PM  

"This is starting to seem like deliberately bleeding on a white flag and then hoisting it on a staff so that everyone can see you are indeed injured. What the hell? "

Some had no choice but to address it. I imagine Vox was basically forced into addressing it due to frustration of the dramaqueening and a deluge of emails asking him about it.

but for the most part its drama queen click bait.

I will point out Men of the West completely ignored it.

Blogger Anthony Gillis November 26, 2016 11:10 PM  

@87 PepperGrinder

Really, from that point onward your arguments are sad and tired. All I'll say is I'm praying for you.

Thanks for your concern, Churchian Scalzi.

Blogger S1AL November 26, 2016 11:13 PM  

GG won by convincing advertisers that they didn't want anything to do with Polygon by meme-ing every single damn slip they made. They won by exposing their opponents as frauds and liars. And they won by flipping the script. Go look through the memes:

They got called racist mysoginists? Fire back with images of all the white, fat, neck-bearded, angry men (and, shudder, women) juxtaposed with the diversity that supposedly didn't exist.

Accusations of "violent rhetoric"? Oh, a Gawker writer advocated for bullying nerds (btw, gaming companies, that's your consumer base).

Ghazi said it's just the press doing their jobs? Journo-list.

You know what they *didn't* say? "We're a bunch of fat, Cheeto-devouring, basement-dwelling incels".

Blogger Solaire Of Astora November 26, 2016 11:13 PM  

A blow being struck is not necessarily bad. Names come and ago but the alt right is a leaderless and decentralized movement of people with shared common beliefs who can learn from the mistakes of others. It is antifragile and will literally gain from the coming social disorder.

Anonymous Sharrukin November 26, 2016 11:16 PM  

105. Casher O'Neill

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad

Politics and war are differing field of conflict.

That said the best defense is an offense.

The right has been content to fight and lose playing on the field chosen by the left and by their rules for a very long time.

We will NEVER win this way.

I am not going to play Condemn The Heretic.

Next week they will chosen another sacrifice and then another and another.

Blogger Casher O'Neill November 26, 2016 11:22 PM  

@110 The right has been content to fight and lose playing on the field chosen by the left and by their rules for a very long time

Last time I checked, right and left both fought the Nazis. You're going to need one hell of a goood reason to convince half the country to embrace it's historic enemy. I haven't seen one yet.

Blogger rumpole5 November 26, 2016 11:26 PM  

"Anyone who drives a Prius should be automatically deported." - I own a Prius -- with a Trump sticker. It's a great car. It gets over 44 mpg, rarely needs servicing, and is extremly spacious and comfortable. You should really start thinking with your head instead of your clichés.

Blogger wreckage November 26, 2016 11:26 PM  

@96, I've been doing that for months now. Pivot and attack.

Anonymous Sharrukin November 26, 2016 11:28 PM  

111. Casher O'Neill

You're going to need one hell of a goood reason to convince half the country to embrace it's historic enemy.

So now anyone defending an unapologetic alt-Right or Spencer is advocating for the NSDAP (Nazis)?

Talk about playing on the field chosen by the left. You accept their paradigm lock stock and barrel.

Anonymous Dave November 26, 2016 11:30 PM  

PepperGrinder wrote:
The Irrational Athiest
delusional about you mental prowess
All I'll say is I'm praying for you.


We'll be sure to send some prayers your way as well, brother. If I may ask; do you favor white peppercorns over black?

Blogger Anthony Gillis November 26, 2016 11:30 PM  

Some here are clucking in panicked circles like cuckservatives, afraid the legacy media sky is falling on them.

Yes, Spencer made the stupid mistake of thinking he might play the media instead of them playing him. And as they have with thousands of others before him, they yanked the football away at the very moment he thought he was going to kick it.

The world didn't end.

And did friendly attention from the media build the Alt-Right in the first place? Did Spencer? Did anyone in particular? Have the underlying realities that actually led to its rise changed in any meaningful way?

You know what the answer is to those questions, or ought.

Blogger Nate November 26, 2016 11:35 PM  

"Yes, Spencer made the stupid mistake of thinking he might play the media instead of them playing him"

well... that's the positive spin best case scenario. Mike is accusing Spencer of colluding with the MSM in return for $$$.

that's a different deal. still doesn't matter to the movement as a whole. I would also suggest if it were true it doesn't even require a disavowel. You don't disavow traitors. You just hang them and move on.

Anonymous Dave November 26, 2016 11:35 PM  

rumpole5 wrote:"Anyone who drives a Prius should be automatically deported." - I own a Prius -- with a Trump sticker. It's a great car. It gets over 44 mpg, rarely needs servicing, and is extremly spacious and comfortable. You should really start thinking with your head instead of your clichés.

You almost had me until this part: and is extremly spacious

Anonymous Eric the Red November 26, 2016 11:39 PM  

@108...

Yes, and GG also attacked the perpetrators directly with their same tactics and weapons. The SJW's began whining and looking for safe spaces because they had never before in their lives been confronted like that.

Regardless, we can put this to rest... you've made some good points, and thanks for the discussion.

However, neither I nor you nor anyone else has the wherewithal to know what 2/3rd's of the population believes. It goes without saying that it's composed of many elements. GG was much more focused.

Meanwhile, the enemy is busy busy busy...

Blogger Casher O'Neill November 26, 2016 11:39 PM  

@114 So now anyone defending an unapologetic alt-Right or Spencer is advocating for the NSDAP (Nazis)?

It would appear so (
anepigone.blogspot.com/2016/11/if-all-publicity-is-good-publicity.html ) and that is Spencer's fault as much as it is the Left's.

Blogger M Cephas November 26, 2016 11:44 PM  

The label "alt-right" is now associated with neo-nazis, because the guy who who coined the label to describe an already existing group of people, wanted to play leader of that group, and then gave the media the video evidence they were looking for to make the neo-nazi label stick.

This is why we shouldn't have leaders, self-proclaimed, or otherwise.

It doesn't mean "alt-right" is dead. Just like "conservative" isn't dead after VD made it undesirable to call oneself that. It will be very difficult though, for one to call themselves alt-right, without being branded as a neo-nazi by the mainstream media. They have video evidence of the self-proclaimed leader and several of his followers now.

Since Trump got in, we are no longer the alternative, but what is.

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky November 26, 2016 11:53 PM  

The Overton window is going to keep moving rightwards. A thing to watch is what is happening in France. The French National Front has always lived with the opprobrium of French "polite society" and held out as being beyond the pale. No more. And the Socialists are sitting there at 4% in the polls. Regardless of how Le Pen fares in the upcoming election, it will mark a moment where nationalism officially arrives as a force to be reckoned with in Europe once again. Brexit was no lark. And in the meantime, the Italians may throw in against the globalists. This is a global wave, and it's in the swelling stage, nowhere near cresting yet.

Meanwhile in the US, ironically Barack Obama is poised to make sure the wave keeps swelling. He is about to cast off the American tradition of former presidents sitting on the sidelines. No, he's excited to revert to the role of "organizer-in-chief", and he's been gearing up his PAC, Organizing For Action (OFA) to keep pushing hard left and against Trump. He's got judges, the MSM, a host of PACs and NGOs, and BLM all lined up. He's going to be out there throwing political bombs and lighting fires, all with intent to divide Americans and inflame passions.

But he won't just rally the Left in this. He'll keep driving everybody else to the right, as well.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/264917/obama-plans-rule-america-outside-white-house-daniel-greenfield

Anonymous Sharrukin November 26, 2016 11:56 PM  

120. Casher O'Neill

It would appear so (
anepigone.blogspot.com/2016/11/if-all-publicity-is-good-publicity.html ) and that is Spencer's fault as much as it is the Left's.

Good.

Do you think hiding in a closet is the correct approach?

Or maybe we go the George Will route and try for maximum respectability and minimum effect?

They called Reagan a Nazi, they called both Bushes Nazis, they even made Mr Milquetoast (Romney) himself into a monster.

You think anyone on the right is going to escape that brush?

Do you think any reasoned explanation will make it through the howling shrieks of leftist outrage?

If Spencer being stupid brought the Alt-Right to the attention of millions more than this is a net win. More than a few will start reading what those terrible people are saying and think..."ya know I kind of agree with that point...OMG BUT NOT THAT!" And that is how we can grow.

The media have ZERO interest in a reasoned dialogue.

You are a racist, a sexist, a Nazi, a Islamaphobe, a homophobe, and an all round monster. Nothing will change that.

If being called a bad name causes this much panic then you will never win.

Anonymous Vermithrax Pejorative November 27, 2016 12:03 AM  

@80
"Your goal is not too convince the left. That's not the point. You don't care about what that third of the population thinks. You care about the other two-thirds."

Exactly. Fuck the left. If you're actually trying to change their minds about anything you're insane. The point is to neutralize the leftist propaganda aimed at the center.

Keep it simple: If it wasn't a problem with Obama, then why is it a problem with Trump? Ayers is actually Obama's friend. Does that make everyone who voted for Obama a genocidal terrorist?

Non-political people and centrists can understand that kind of reasoning.

Let the press keep shrieking. They more they do it, the more people tune out their hysterical yapping.

Anonymous DissidentRight November 27, 2016 12:05 AM  

What does the average Trump supporter actually know about the Alt Right? I'm guessing SpencerGate is a tempest in a teacup.

Blogger Assyrian Nationalist November 27, 2016 12:12 AM  

Vox, question:

What's the best place to be for a minority whose ethnic group has no majority anywhere? Trying to prepare for the inevitable, but I don't know of any Assyrian equivalent of a Chinatown.

I'm considering purchasing some farmland away from any dense population center as a last resort option if the situation starts to get really apocalyptic.

Blogger Cail Corishev November 27, 2016 12:18 AM  

If I polled my friends and family about the effect of this, the most common response would be, "What is the alt-right, and who is Richard Spencer?" They already had a vague notion that the right-wing included Nazis and/or neo-Nazis, because they've been taught that all their lives. So hearing that some right-wingers, alt- or otherwise, might be wannabe Nazis, will strike them as dog-bites-man news. They're not likely to have heard or thought about it any more deeply than that.

How normal people see the alt-right going forward will depend on what those of us who identify with it show and tell them it means as it becomes more influential. The fact that Spencer kinda sorta coined the term years ago doesn't give him any special power in that regard unless we concede it to him.

Blogger DaveP November 27, 2016 12:19 AM  

Anyone whose family was here before WW2 has parents who lost a father or an uncle fighting the Nazis. You cannot build an AltRight with Nazi loving garbage in it. Count me out if this is what it's about. I'll find another movement to support.

Blogger Bard November 27, 2016 12:30 AM  

I respect and support Mike. It is possible, but unlikely, that Spencer did that on purpose. More probable that his ego and alcohol led to a failed publicity stunt. Identity politics are going to continue to coalesce, and white nationalism will strengthen. But, the Nazi stuff will have no part in it other than on a cartoon frog. Probably why they did the interview. Formally put an end to it. Rising white nationalism will not be Neo Nazi skin head white supremacists. I think they made that clear.

Blogger Bard November 27, 2016 12:33 AM  

Vox's Alt-light, Alt-white, Alt-West designations were eerily accurate.

Blogger Cail Corishev November 27, 2016 12:41 AM  

@128, That's understandable, but if you've been part of the political right in the past, you realize you already were part of a movement containing some "Nazi-loving garbage," don't you?

I'm not saying you should embrace these guys or defend them, but it's a little weird to see people acting like they've just discovered Nazis in their midst. These guys always claimed to be on our side, and it was never that hard to ignore them before.

Anonymous Sharrukin November 27, 2016 12:41 AM  

128. DaveP

Anyone whose family was here before WW2 has parents who lost a father or an uncle fighting the Nazis. You cannot build an AltRight with Nazi loving garbage in it. Count me out if this is what it's about. I'll find another movement to support.

My uncle died in France shortly after Normandy.

You aren't going to find any effective political grouping without communist fans, or Nazi fans, or what have you.

This is just cheap virtue signaling.

The right loves to indulge in this kind of nonsense, but it is essentially meaningless.

You want purity of spirit in politics? You want decent and upstanding gentlemen to fight at your side before you will grace them with your lukewarm support?

I knew a Frenchman who fought the Nazis with the French Resistance. According to him they were mostly criminals, misfits, and Communists (later). Most of the respectable folks stayed home too busy being upstanding and virtuous to fight.

Nothing about war or politics is suited for the morally fastidious.

Blogger tublecane November 27, 2016 12:53 AM  

@121-What do you mean "now?" It always was, as soon as anyone on the left heard of it. It probably was before then, too. Same way the term "conservative" is associated with Nazis. Because anything on the right will be associated with Nazis. I was going to say anything that's nationalist and in defense of white interests will be, but it's more than that. Anything not explicitly anti-nationalist and anti-white can and will be associated with Nazis.

Not that you should give them confirmation. But who cares, really? BFD. Everyone hated the hippies, and they handle been made fun of in popular culture ever since anyone heard of them. After the '68 convention people were saying the Democrat Party and the far left with them were finished. But now they run everything! They long marched on our asses.

Goes to show you don't need good PR to win. They didn't give a damn about their image, the dirty nogoodnicks.

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable November 27, 2016 12:53 AM  

Also, is "I used to like you" just a direct troll tell?

Yes. They have email. They could use it. They don't because they're liars.

Blogger tublecane November 27, 2016 12:59 AM  

"since Trump got in, we are no longer the alternative, but what is"

What an insane comment. Trump isn't alt-right, nor are most of the people around him. Even if he were, the president doesn't even run the White House, let alone the executive branch. That isn't to speak of the intelligentsia and Money Power who actually run the country.

It would take the alt-right generations to become "what is," if the country as we know it lasts that long.

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable November 27, 2016 1:06 AM  

Frankly I am confused as all hell as to why the alt-right and alt-light are focusing so much on this.

I just got some new tires, and let me tell you, friction is important. Instead of having to go slow, I can stop on a dime now. Friction lets me go faster.

And back on topic, I also have no idea why anyone would talk about this.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents November 27, 2016 1:17 AM  

Also, is "I used to like you" just a direct troll tell?

Well, it seems that way.

Blogger wreckage November 27, 2016 1:51 AM  

@128, well since they aren't German Imperialists, they ain't your grandaddy's Nazis. In any case being Nationalist and Socialist they are "in" both sides of the political movement; if you can't stand the idea that someone else will associate you with Nazis, the only way out is to shoot yourself.

Except, Hitler did that.

Anonymous Siobhan November 27, 2016 2:16 AM  

On the list of things that give me too much of a headache to have fully parsed yet is:

The Alt-Right, The Other Alt-Right, And The Rise Of The Alt-Left
There are two Alt-Rights and distinguishing between them is critical to defeating them.


http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_583884ece4b0c2ab944368dc

Somewhere between postconstructuralist and metamodernism my ability to care turned off.

And yet, amidst the "I went to college for something stupid" phraseology there are occasional nuggets of sense, directed at the left.

Blogger M Cephas November 27, 2016 3:33 AM  

@133.

What do I mean by "now"?

There's a difference between the left rambling on about Hitler and Nazis, which nobody, including themselves, actually took seriously, and them having the person who coined the term "alt-right" on tape with his followers, giving the Roman salute like a group of actual Nazis.

It's one thing to be called a nazi. It's another thing to be caught on tape acting like one. Most don't take the former seriously, even if they pretend to.

Not that it can't be turned around. Although people like Milo will now have a more difficult time defending the alt-right if the topic comes up. He can still frame it as trolling. If they are successfully framed as trolls, just having a laugh, it might be forgotten about.

Anonymous Bobby Farr November 27, 2016 4:12 AM  

Do you think Trump is trolling when he posts "One People, One Nation, One Great Future"? It is a lot like "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" and I love it.

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar November 27, 2016 4:21 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar November 27, 2016 4:23 AM  

Richard Spencer and his branch of the Alt-right are just a bunch of shy nazis who are too cowardly to disclose their true ideas and ideals. In that respect... I don't respect them. I like people who are upfront. You can tell Richard Spencer's admiration for nazi aesthetics just by looking at his haircut.

As Vox points out, this is much larger than Spencer's secret admiration for nazi ideology (and soldiers?), or any attempt to bring back failed regimes from the past. I was reading some information on Cliodynamics and it very much reminded me of Hari Seldon's Psychohistory in Assimov's "Foundation and Empire" series.

Something is brewing in the European and American social magma, but I'd say especially in Europe. People are slowly realizing a shockingly unexpected truth: liberty, democracy, prosperity, are not in the papers, they are in the people! So people, with their defects but also with their virtues, are the ultimate foundation of civil behavior, clean streets and a flourishing economy. If you keep the laws but remove the people for which those laws are natural, you create a situation of enormous potential energy (I like to use this concept of physics to describe this situation) that can't be sustained for very long.

Systems always seek states of lower potential energy. The rock that you hold above ground will fall as soon as you release it. And a Europe that has been demographically undone will be in a state of constant conflict with the existing laws and customs. It won't be long until the tensions become unbearable and a state of lower potential energy is achieved. That state might be Sharia Law or African chaos.

Our beloved principles rest on the assumption that we're surrounded by whites. Take out the whites and see what happens. Nobody likes to see their nation dismantled, but the elites made the mistake of thinking that Europeans had become universal, ethereal beings, and had lost all traces of human tribalistic tendencies. How can you be so fucking wrong.

Blogger tublecane November 27, 2016 4:28 AM  

@12-Those subdivisions are interesting, but I was talking about the larger non-mainstream right, which includes all manner of outre groups (libertarians, paleocons, "crunchy cons," neoreactionaries, neo-nazis, etc.) They don't all fit into your categories.

Say those that don't don't matter, okay. But my point is that until such time as the alt-right as popularly known becomes the mainstream right, which I predict the general public will confuse it with irrelevant fringe right groups. Which is why people can say the alt-right is dead with a straight face.

Blogger Leo Littlebook in Shenzhen November 27, 2016 4:40 AM  

I would rather belong to a group that tolerates Nazis than anti-racists, churchians and cucks.

Those who feel differently can suck a modicum of mainstream acceptance from a black dick.

Blogger tublecane November 27, 2016 4:41 AM  

@143-Way, way larger. I have been outside the mainstream right for many years, but I wasn't fully "red pilled" until after Trayvon Martin, among other things. That's a convenient turning point, though, so I'll stick to it. Since then I've frequented various sites in the Dank Corners of the Internet, including fascist ones. (Mostly Counter-Currents).

I don't, however, keep up with internet celebrities, or "movement" people. I have wells I like to go back to, again and again. (Vox, Steve Sailer, the Derb, Jared Taylor, Moldbug, Greg Johnson, Raimondo, Cernovich, Heartiste, Audacious Epigone, etc.), not a program of acceptable movement organs. I honestly never heard of Richard Spencer until very recently.

These people don't mean as much as they think, even to fanatics (in the eyes of mainstream culture) such as myself.

Blogger tublecane November 27, 2016 4:51 AM  

@140-It's "another thing," yes, but what is that other thing? What does it amount to? A little more than a hill of beans, maybe.

Then again, they know and we know and possibly John Q. Public senses Spencer was at least trying to troll them. He failed, but it wasn't like they caught him being a real Nazi. Maybe he's a Nazi in his heart, but that actual movement doesn't exist.

Meanwhile, the left can literally pay people to start riots and blame them on the opposition, but that's cool because there's no evil symbolism to tie it to. These people are shameless, and we oughtn't let looking bad for a news cycle to bring us down. Because this will never stop, unless or until someone else controls the Narrative.

You and I know they'd be trying to do the same thing to Random Bush Family Member #2305 were he in any position to be associated with the movement they hate and fear. The fact that it'd be marginally harder to do so matters. But not that much.

Anonymous Discard November 27, 2016 4:52 AM  

126. Assyrian Nationalist: I'd say you're better of as a contributing member of a White American community than living in an enclave of your own particular tribe. If you choose to be an Other, you'll be rightly seen as an Other. Choose to be one of Us, even if you fall short, and most of us will have your back in times of trouble.

Anonymous Reader November 27, 2016 5:08 AM  

I agree, if you can seize the right moment then you have a good chance of success. I thought that the Trump win could have given you the momentum to push your agenda. But even Trump saw through the moral indecency of your goal, with the alt-right obsession with race. And to me, to an extent , your belief that Christianity is the only religion that can sustain western civilisation is disturbing. Does freedom of religion feature in the altright land? In a perfect altright land, how is it not different from middle eastern countries like Saudi Arabia, where non-Arabic and non-Muslims are treated second class. Or are the non-white citizens who have never known any other culture except where they were born be kicked out?

All movements have a symbolic head if a movement is to succeed. Think of Ghandi and his satyagraha movement. Or Jose Rizal of the Philippines whose ideas were the impetus for a revolution against Spain. Telling this crap about the altright has no leader is a postmodern crap. Even tech companies that have rather not too hierarchical flat management structure, still have heads that call the shots.

A war campaign will not be won without boots on the ground. How can altright win it if you are just a bunch of people only loud online, hiding under handles?

I don't like the left poisoning western civilisation but your solution is no less poison.

Sorry to say but I think the altright will fizzle out if you don't make much progress during this new president's term and if you don't make some adjustments in your ideology.

I had a quick look at the book my son is reading currently, titled Einstein and 20th century politics. The book provided instances to show that Einstein the most genius of all the geniuses were abhorrent slavery and segregation and racism. And that when a singer who was to hold a concert in Princeton was barred from staying in a hotel , he offered his home to her.

Blogger VD November 27, 2016 5:13 AM  

Anyone whose family was here before WW2 has parents who lost a father or an uncle fighting the Nazis. You cannot build an AltRight with Nazi loving garbage in it. Count me out if this is what it's about. I'll find another movement to support.

Then leave. We don't need pussies whose actions are dictated by their emotions about a foreign movement dead for 70 years.

See Point 12: The Alt-Right doesn't care what you think about it.

None of you seem to grasp what I've been pointing out for months, if not years. If the Alt-Right does not succeed politically, the Neos will by other means. A few of you are finally seeing that first glimpse of the Neos and reeling.

Those of you who are worrying about brand are still caught up in an increasingly outdated paradigm. Events will always trump brand, particularly once the open conflict begins to touch people's lives.

Blogger tublecane November 27, 2016 5:13 AM  

@149-If Einstein is the most genius of all the geniuses, you are the most troll of all the trolls.

Your post in summation: race, eww; please make it easier for us to beat you.

Anonymous Eric the Red November 27, 2016 5:31 AM  

Paradox: Without whites the proposition nation will die like a dog. Then it will be tribal power politics all the way down, forever.

Blogger Leo Littlebook in Shenzhen November 27, 2016 5:34 AM  

I'm pretty sure the Nazis want to burn Lady Gaga, and it's hard to stay mad at anyone with good taste.

Anonymous Reader November 27, 2016 5:37 AM  

tcane: Seriously, i thought I made some ideas and you came up with just that.

I tried posting another longer comments but something ate them. Hard typing on IPad and sleep time now here. So bye now

Blogger Jerry27 November 27, 2016 7:41 AM  

"Everything Einstein got he stole from his wife." This was a quote I overheard from a 3 mensa feminists back in the 70's, who were somewhat independant. That passion about his wife seems to have gone down the memory hole.


https://redice.tv/red-ice-radio/albert-einstein-the-myth-the-plagiarist-and-the-zionist

thanks,
Jerry

Blogger wreckage November 27, 2016 7:49 AM  

@149, Even aspiring to self-determination is abhorrent. Good to know.

Anonymous dingo_twitter November 27, 2016 8:03 AM  

Any movement associated with White Identity will end up getting the Nazi label. It doesn’t matter how you rebrand.

White Identity will be forever intertwined with National Socialist Germany. This has been the case since the late 1950s. Even though The Allies didn’t fight Germany because of their racial policies, and countries like mine had racial policies pretty much the same as Germany’s - sans targeting Jews - when we fought them.

The war against Nazism was not a war against racism, anti-semitism or anything of the kind. Racialist views were entirely normal and accepted at the time by most of the western world. The Allied soldiers weren’t fired up against he Nazis because of their racism, they were fired up against them because of their perceived imperialism.

From my perspective, the ‘gotcha’ footage from NPI looked goofy and nostalgic. That was the problem, along with the need for police protection against dweeb antifa. That shows weakness.

Regardless of all of this, I still think Richard Spencer is the best guy to continue to lead. He still has more mass appeal than others who have tried to argue for white interests over the last 30 years. If someone else can step up and do better, then great. Until then, any public attacks on him should be viewed with extreme suspicion.

Blogger Gary November 27, 2016 8:36 AM  

The real global elites (not the muppets at Bilderberg meetings) don't need to be able to predict every nuanced detail of the cycles that perpetually unfold here on earth. They know there will be wars and revolutions at certain stages. Big deal they say.

They sit back and take a little skim off everyone's lives and allow humans to do their usual silly things. At every stage of the cycle they are ahead of the game.

A little clue: look at the balance sheet of the ECB, and you may notice what's on line of the assets side. Within a few years you will see the ECB announce a QE buying that asset.

Now look into the major founding shareholder of Bullion Vault.
You'll see what I mean. They know what is coming, they are ready, it will consolidate yet more power and wealth into their hands, whilst your pension schemes (heh) go up in smoke. It's not too late to get in on the plan, and follow in the footsteps of giants.

Anonymous grey enlightenment November 27, 2016 8:39 AM  

maybe these are valid points, but then why drag Spencer into it. if he wants to LARP, that's his business. Spencer is right about some things but maybe his approach is wrong that doesn't make him an informant.

Anonymous grey enlightenment November 27, 2016 8:44 AM  

@3 seems like a lot of curve fitting to make the waves align with important events

Blogger Casher O'Neill November 27, 2016 8:50 AM  

Then leave. We don't need pussies whose actions are dictated by their emotions about a foreign movement dead for 70 years
A bit early to John Birch half the movement for a few Nazis.

If the Alt-Right does not succeed politically, the Neos will by other means. Events will always trump brand, particularly once the open conflict begins to touch people's lives.

This is some of that magical thinking we were talking about earlier. Back in the day when 4gen war was called irregular warfare, the theorists talked about the importance of self-policing (in the covert phase by extrajudicial killings, if need be). It has apparently not occurred to a lot of alt-righters that you can kill the movement by letting the loonies actually identify themselves as an ancestral enemy. Good luck keeping the upper Midwest (where the immigration pressures are lowest) while embracing people who think pretending to be Nazis in public is a good idea. If Spencer wants to die on that stupid hill, let him die alone, one less problem for the rest of us.

Blogger Cail Corishev November 27, 2016 9:11 AM  

@161, Vox isn't trying to John Birch anyone; that's the whole point of what he's been writing about this for days, as I see it. The alt-right can be a big enough tent to encompass Spencer and right-wingers who don't want to "embrace" Spencer -- as long as neither of those groups tries to John Birch the other.

What the alt-right doesn't need is people who are more focused on purifying the movement and saying, "If you want me, you have to get rid of that guy," than on advancing alt-right goals. If you want to be alt-right, just do so, but accept that you might bump into people you don't like at meetings.

Blogger tuberman November 27, 2016 9:12 AM  

VD,
"Look, I'm a game designer. I design multi-variable models, and without the ability to design for effect, or impose external limitations on the outputs, fairly minor changes rapidly cause the model to become unpredictable. And the complexity of real world events is vastly greater than a simulation of a sports league, or a single game"

There are always unintended consequences, especially from the Globalist's pushing Indentiarian Politics. In the end, they are just on the wrong side of history. The "War and Peace" article by you a few days ago nailed it.

I will say that people like Stefan Molyneux's take on most of these things is correct (DNA and destiny, including IQ and Attitudes of various "minorities").

Your insightful perspectives on where history is moving us is why I come here. Yet punching toward Spencer, IMHO, is not punching against the extreme Right. I formed this opinion on my own, by reading Spencer's material, as there was way too much Cuckish crap being regurgitated by him and his shill commentators. I'm indifferent to whether he was working hand in foot with the MSM, as he was constantly "dog whistling" for their attention by using cuck phrases and terminology in many of his articles. The cuck undercurrents in his writing was going on for months before the "Roman Salutes" which would not have bothered me by itself. If Spencer constantly signals the MSM he has a "NeverTrumper" side with his language use, then he is a Cuck, and not really Alt-Right.

I also know that Trump is not close to a solution, yet my gut tells me he is Right for this particular time. Identity politics will be forced on most Whites, even if many come in "kicking and screaming."

Yet, the essence of the Alt-Right will grow, and people like PJW and Mike will also grow beyond their specializations or just fall away.

Anonymous Ironsides November 27, 2016 9:14 AM  

Casher O'Neill wrote:

This is some of that magical thinking we were talking about earlier. Back in the day when 4gen war was called irregular warfare, the theorists talked about the importance of self-policing (in the covert phase by extrajudicial killings, if need be). It has apparently not occurred to a lot of alt-righters that you can kill the movement by letting the loonies actually identify themselves as an ancestral enemy. Good luck keeping the upper Midwest (where the immigration pressures are lowest) while embracing people who think pretending to be Nazis in public is a good idea. If Spencer wants to die on that stupid hill, let him die alone, one less problem for the rest of us.


Well, you've got no control over Spencer. None. Zero. Unless you actually go and murder Spencer, which will just land you in the jail or electric chair and REALLY stamp the "murderous nut" label on the alt-right, you have no power over him at all. You say "self-policiing." What, exactly, are you going to do to "police" Spencer? What are you trying to get others to do?

The answer: there is NOTHING you can do to police him. Period. End of story.

At this point, continuing to attack Spencer is an unforced error by the alt-right. They've let their disapproval be known. Right now, all they're doing by continuing to yell at him is to HELP KEEP THE NAZIGATE B.S. ALIVE and waste energy that should be directed at attacking the leftists.

To hell with Spencer. Fuck Spencer. Forget Spencer. Get back on the attack against the goddamn leftists, who are still there big as life and twice as ugly. Jabbering about Spencer is just a useless waste of time. He's going to do whatever he does, and there it is. Yowling and hand-wringing about it is just giving more exposure to the "scandal" and helping it continue to have "legs." Pretend it was trivial. Forget it. Go for the jugular of your actual enemies instead of wasting time clubbing each other like a bunch of stupid Irish chieftains continuing their feuds and ignoring the Norman invaders.

Blogger VD November 27, 2016 9:25 AM  

He still has more mass appeal than others who have tried to argue for white interests over the last 30 years.

He really doesn't. He had fewer Twitter followers than I did before he got kicked off and I was blocked.

At this point, continuing to attack Spencer is an unforced error by the alt-right.

Then stop attacking those who were criticizing him. If you want it to go away sooner rather than later, you'd better shut the fuck up about Milo and Cernovich and PJW, because I am always going to back my authors and allies.

Here is a clue: if you don't want to lose, and lose badly, don't attack the guy with a bigger platform and more appeal than you've got.

Blogger Aeoli Pera November 27, 2016 9:34 AM  

This is a significant setback, but not a serious one. There is no question whether the alt-right will continue to grow.

Anonymous Garrulus November 27, 2016 10:34 AM  

PJW and Cernovich are traitors and textbook controlled opposition themselves.

Blogger alt-deplorable.jezko November 27, 2016 11:07 AM  

Nothing to see here. It was the same with trump, the daily ups & downs, all the emotions. Who cares, the trajectory is given. Let's not lose the sight of the prize.

Spencer's conference, at most (if at all) is a tactical blunder, and certainly not a mistake of a magnitude it would have been 10 years ago; this is not all ceteris paribus and we are not in the business of disavowal. PJW, MC and Stefan are necessary for a lot of people to start their red-pilling. I don't disavow. Anyone, that is.

Blogger Cail Corishev November 27, 2016 11:11 AM  

I used to read Spencer's Alternative Right site before it closed down. I think I have several articles from it saved or bookmarked. I think I've also heard Derb mention his conferences, though I could be confusing him with someone else there.

And yet, when this news came out, even I had to stop and think, "Hmm, Richard Spencer, that name sounds familiar for some reason." People who think this is a big deal because Spencer is the visible leader of something are just too close to it.

Anonymous Mr. Rational November 27, 2016 11:34 AM  

dfordoom wrote:Anyone who drives a Prius should be automatically deported.
People who drive Priuses are one of the reasons you're able to enjoy $2.10/gallon gas right now.

BTW, the Chevy Volt is now on sale for under $28k.  What do you think of people who buy those?  Or Teslas?

Blogger S1AL November 27, 2016 11:38 AM  

"People who drive Priuses are one of the reasons you're able to enjoy $2.10/gallon gas right now."

That's adorable. The left called, they want their idiot memes back.

Anonymous Gen. Kong November 27, 2016 12:54 PM  

Nate:
well... that's the positive spin best case scenario. Mike is accusing Spencer of colluding with the MSM in return for $$$.

that's a different deal. still doesn't matter to the movement as a whole. I would also suggest if it were true it doesn't even require a disavowel. You don't disavow traitors. You just hang them and move on.


So is it stupidity or treason? You're correct that treason is far more serious, since (((media))) is absolutely the enemy. Why are we still talking about this? Whatever the reason, it was not a good move. If nothing else, it completely undid any publicity for a number of very fine presentations at the NPI conference. The VDARE folks are quite unhappy about the mess. Kevin MacDonald's presentation was likewise overshadowed by the clowning. Even if you take the position that tweaking the (((media))) by doing a street-performance if Springtime for Hitler is good rhetorical tactics, it should have been done at another place and time altogether. There is simply no way this can be spun as a net gain for us.

Blogger Sheila4g November 27, 2016 1:34 PM  

As someone who totally supports the 16 points and 14 words and identifies as Alt Right, but is not personally acquainted with any of the individuals involved in the latest scuffle, it does seem a tempest in a teapot to me. I support Vox supporting his authors and friends. I support others saying no enemies to the right. Personally, I'm not in any way offended by Nazi larping, or even genuine Nazi following - i.e. live and let live. And because it drives the (((media))) nuts. I read at Radix, but more for Gregory Hood or others than Spencer. I've been aware of him for at least 5 years or so, but he's no more the "leader" than Brimelow or Taylor or Vox. He has his area of expertise and his own followers. Since I don't do twitter I was unaware of Cernovich until reading about him here; his aggressive self-boosting just turns me off, but I'd never characterize myself as a typical reader (I get turned off by Scott Adams' pushing his books too). I don't follow Infowars or PJW, but am instinctively suspect when someone unilaterally declares that, since the (((media))) has declared someone verboten, the "brand" is forever tainted and dead. The hell with virtue signaling and purity spiraling and public condemnation. Everyone does stupid things sometimes. Why can't everyone just DROP this and move on?

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents November 27, 2016 3:14 PM  

@170 Mr. Rational
People who drive Priuses are one of the reasons you're able to enjoy $2.10/gallon gas right now.

I didn't know that the Saudi princes in charge of ARAMCO drove Priuses, learn something new every day.

BTW, the Chevy Volt is now on sale for under $28k. What do you think of people who buy those? Or Teslas?

Coal-powered cars aren't very interesting.

Hey, seen any sunspots lately?

Anonymous User November 27, 2016 5:04 PM  

Look, I'm a game designer. I design multi-variable models, and without the ability to design for effect, or impose external limitations on the outputs, fairly minor changes rapidly cause the model to become unpredictable. And the complexity of real world events is vastly greater than a simulation of a sports league, or a single game.

And this is why "climate science" will always be a joke to me.

Blogger The Hammer November 27, 2016 6:24 PM  

@96: When they bring up nazis... we should be pointing out that the horrible economic reality facing the american worker... and pointing out how its the mistaks of the globalist left over and over and over that create this climate that forces people to turn to extremism for solutions.

Use it as a chance to shoot at the enemy.


Can confirm.

I've brought up these issues on social media with anti-Trumpers when they mention the alt-right or even the recent salute kerfuffle. Whether I use rhetoric or dialectic (with linked studies on white identity growth by even liberal researchers), they stop engaging.

It's literally been crickets every time. The cognitive dissonance has been palpable.

Anonymous Gen. Kong November 27, 2016 7:17 PM  

Sometimes, it's a good thing to take a look at what the e-e-e-e-evil Richard Spencer himself has to say about some of the boneheaded, girly shrieking surrounding the NPI conference. The point made in the video is an excellent one. The fact that Trump won the election does not by any means signifiy that the war to exterminate whites is over or won. The man hasn't even been sworn in yet and we have a congress full of worthless cucks, pedobears, criminals and traitors who'll be happy to sign anything the Shitcongo Jeezus places before them in the next few weeks.

Blogger tublecane November 27, 2016 7:47 PM  

@154-Yes, you made some ideas. A string of ideas, strung together in no discernable order, not making much of a point but the ones I summarized.

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable November 27, 2016 11:01 PM  

Eric the Red wrote:Paradox: Without whites the proposition nation will die like a dog. Then it will be tribal power politics all the way down, forever.

To grasp the paradox, you must first grasp that the proposition nation will lead to a world without whites, because of how the K-selected react to socio-economic stress, the tribal nepotism advantage over Hajnal-line altruism, and simple mixing -- them having a place where they don't mix, and us not.

Blogger Casher O'Neill November 28, 2016 8:33 AM  

Ironsides wrote:Well, you've got no control over Spencer. None. Zero. Unless you actually go and murder Spencer, which will just land you in the jail or electric chair and REALLY stamp the "murderous nut" label on the alt-right, you have no power over him at all. You say "self-policiing." What, exactly, are you going to do to "police" Spencer? What are you trying to get others to do?

I'm pretty sure I said "If Spencer wants to die on that stupid hill, let him die alone, one less problem for the rest of us." The comment about extrajudicial killings was to illustrate the importance of self-policing among serious wagers of 4gen/irregular warfare. We are nowhere near that phase in our own civilizational conflict. As I've noted previously, we aren't even a party. The best policy is to quickly distance ourselves from the loonies so that we are outside the blast radius when, like Spencer, they go. Unfortunately, in the English-speaking world, Spencer may have blown up the term "alt-right" along with himself. On the plus side, if people like VD want to coin and own a new term, they can now keep the loonies out.

As it turns out, the extreme case may not be necessary ever since the Trump administration is off to a mostly promising start. And they've promised to take care of any problems on the margin for us. Hopefully, the excitable and imprudent among us will learn not to cook-off.

Anonymous Mr. Rational November 29, 2016 7:53 AM  

A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents wrote:I didn't know that the Saudi princes in charge of ARAMCO drove Priuses
Prius sales in the USA come to over 1.6 million, some 40% of all hybrids sold here.  If every Prius driver had a 9-MPG F-250 instead, they'd burn something like 1.5 billion more gallons of gas every year.

Oil prices spike or crater on very small differences between supply and demand.  Ponder that for a minute.


Coal-powered cars aren't very interesting.

Natural gas is rapidly replacing coal in electric power generation.  And you didn't answer the question.

Despite the finds in the Bakken and Permean, a lot of N. American oil is still imported from off the continent.  Natural gas (and, yes, coal) is almost entirely domestic.  That "coal-powered car" represents energy security, and thus national security.  Every F-250 represents Saudi ownership.

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