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Thursday, December 08, 2016

The end of progressive Christianity

This is an insightful piece by an intelligent observer of the battle between historic and progressive Christianity, and I think his conclusion is essentially correct:
The historic Christians believe their religion is revealed by God in the person of his Son Jesus Christ, and that the Scriptures are the primary witness of that revelation. They believe the church is the embodiment of the risen Lord Jesus in the world and that his mission to seek and to save that which is lost is still valid and vital. Historic Christians believe in the supernatural life of the Church and expect God to be at work in the world and in their lives.

Progressive Christians believe their religion is a historical accident of circumstances and people, that Jesus Christ is, at best, a divinely inspired teacher, that the Scriptures are flawed human documents influenced by paganism and that the church is a body of spiritually minded people who wish to bring peace and justice to all and make the world a better place.

I realize that I paint with broad strokes, but the essential divide is recognizable, and believers on both sides should admit that “historic” and “progressive” Christians exist within all denominations. The real divide in Christianity is no longer Protestant and Catholic, but progressive and historic.

When I say “divide” I should say “battle” because both sides are locked in an interminable and unresolvable battle. Interminable because neither side will yield and unresolvable because the divisions extend the theological and philosophical roots of both aspects.

However, it is true that if you look at the dynamic of progressive Christianity, you will see that by the end of this century it will have either died out or ceased to be Christianity.

At this time, modernism still wears Christian clothes in the mainstream Protestant churches and in parts of the Catholic Church.

This cannot last much longer for 11 very simple reasons:
The most powerful reason, of course, is that progressive Christians do not actually believe in the supernatural, which means that in the most basic sense, they cannot reasonably be described as Christians at all.

Michael Sebastian makes much the same point, in rather less elevated language, on Return of Kings:
This message that God promises people a wonderful life has had a deep impact on the lives of many modern Christians. It is a message that fits perfectly with our hedonistic culture that puts pleasure above duty. Christian couples forego having children so they can travel or drive luxury cars. Lukewarm Christian women divorce perfectly good husbands in pursuit of the Prince Charming they think they deserve. Bishops and pastors preach only those parts of the gospel that make them popular with the secular culture.

Modern Christianity is also compromised in other ways. Rather than standing against the culture, Christian churches have tried to accommodate as much of the culture as possible. Some denominations have embraced Christian feminism, push for left wing social causes such as open borders, and bless gay marriages. For that reason, if you want to learn what real Christianity is, you will have to ignore recent teaching in favor of the past.  A good rule of thumb is to simply avoid reading Christian material written after 1900. Listen to your Sunday Sermon but take it with a grain of salt.
Repent. Return to the fundamentals of the faith. Read the Word. Preach the Gospel. Go forth and multiply. And ignore all who tell you to follow the world on its broad and easy path to Hell.

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141 Comments:

Blogger traderdoc December 08, 2016 8:13 PM  

I think most Christians would say that they do not support theocracy (however that is meant) as a standard for functional Christianity.

And yet, that is what you pray in a request every time you say The Lord's Prayer.

...thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven..."

There is no form of Christianity that is progressive.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents December 08, 2016 8:22 PM  

A good rule of thumb is to simply avoid reading Christian material written after 1900.

An exception: Christianity and Liberalism by John Gresham Machen. The writing is very dense, every word means something, there is no padding. He did not write for casual "skim until done" readers.

Anonymous Drose December 08, 2016 8:26 PM  

The lord's prayer is for a theocratic government ruled by GOD HIMSELF, not rule by modern day pharisees

Blogger Fifty Seven December 08, 2016 8:29 PM  

One of my co-workers, who's a tatted up ex-con, took his Jeep in for service a few weeks ago. He wound up meeting and plowing on of the salesgirls. Next day she asked him if he wanted to go to church with her.

To a lot of people, the baseline for 'good Christian' is 'hasn't murdered anyone recently'.

Blogger darrenl December 08, 2016 8:34 PM  

Good articles Vox.

On the Catholic side, anecdotally, I'm hearing more of the young priests being very orthodox in teaching. Also, lots of very crunchy parishioners who do Adoration at least weekly.

There's hope.

Blogger Log December 08, 2016 8:35 PM  

The real divide is between those who proclaim Christ with their lips only, but their heart is far removed from him, as evidenced by their behavior in constrast with his teachings, commandments, and sayings - and those who actually do what Christ said to do, as he himself taught in Luke 6.

Luke 6
46 ¶And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.


Why do you call him Lord if you do not do what he said to do?

Blogger dc.sunsets December 08, 2016 8:38 PM  

Interesting choice of terms.

Progressivism was once explicitly associated with Protestant Christianity (recall the Temperance Movement among others), its roots traveling back through the Pilgrims and the Levelers. Around WW Two it jettisoned its overtly religious mantle in favor of a Universalist Philosophy, much more like an East Asian religion in that no "god" was worshiped, and the sacraments came to be vaguely and flexibly defined. Flexible to the point where biological reality is optional. (facepalm)

As I read this, the author is simply stating that Progressive Christians are in the process of joining their brothers who in a prior period scrapped their Bibles. Seems like a good insight to me.

No person who is actually Christian can endeavor to immanentize the eschaton. Few things are more incompatible with Christianity.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 08, 2016 8:43 PM  

"Progressive" Christianity is simply one more side-effect of the 50 year mania in which we're all immersed.

Prechter once wrote that it is characterized by the Jungian archetype of flight; this is a feeling that people are no longer constrained by Earthly limits and that their reality is redefined and without physical constraints (like gravity.)

Those who are caught up in this deep-seated, largely unconscious mind-frame are like the Pod People from "Invasion of the Body Snatchers."

They are EVERYWHERE. The effects of their actions all but define our modern world. There's going to be HELL to pay when this thing reverses.

Anonymous LES December 08, 2016 8:44 PM  

How do you proclaim the dialectic Gospel in a rhetoric world?

Blogger Republican Mother December 08, 2016 8:46 PM  

Churches where I'm at are slowly replacing the Bible with "books of men". I get mocked for sticking with my KJV and saying that I think CCM sucks. When I say "sucks", that keeps them from calling me a legalist:)

I really have a hard time fellowshipping because when you get up to seven kids, it's really hard to have anything in common with these Beth Moore fan girls. The evangelical scene makes me want to puke, so I know I'm in Good Company. (Rev 3:16)

Blogger Log December 08, 2016 8:57 PM  

After all, the fundamentals of the faith of Christ are the keeping of his instructions. Repentance is turning away from the ways of the world and doing what Christ said to do.

After all, if you do not do what he said to do, you are chucking your Bibles. Your opponents simply chuck more of theirs than you do yours.

I think the Lord would prefer a straightforward enemy to a self-proclaimed Christian who does not do what Christ said to do.

Revelation 3
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Blogger Viisaus December 08, 2016 9:00 PM  

I think this piece puts it in a concise manner:

https://westernwoes.wordpress.com/2016/02/25/progressive-christians-should-call-themselves-atheists/

"Should there come a day where there are no more churches, bibles are relegated to museums, Jesus is a footnote in history, and God is a quaint thing vaguely remembered, the Progressive faith will continue strong. Their faith is not in God or Christ, but in man and man’s evolution toward utopia.

For all intents and purposes, they are atheists.

They just need to renounce Christ and be done with it."

Or as Jesus Christ told Judas Iscariot, "What you are about to do, do quickly" (John 13:27). After all, Judas is the true prototype of Social Gospel apostates.

Anonymous johnc December 08, 2016 9:02 PM  

For that reason, if you want to learn what real Christianity is, you will have to ignore recent teaching in favor of the past. A good rule of thumb is to simply avoid reading Christian material written after 1900.

Living now so late in history makes it easier to know what the truth is. If Christian teaching is truth and the truth is immutable, then we can discern authentic Christian teaching by comparing it to what has been accepted Christianity ever since the beginning. Anything that deviates from that is heresy.

One of my co-workers, who's a tatted up ex-con, took his Jeep in for service a few weeks ago. He wound up meeting and plowing on of the salesgirls. Next day she asked him if he wanted to go to church with her.

We have some seriously dyscivic behaviors ingrained in modern culture that we need to figure out how to fix -- pronto -- before we completely lose everything our ancestors built. You simply can't build (or keep) a serious civilization without monogamy.

Blogger Viisaus December 08, 2016 9:07 PM  

Furthermore, it is nauseatingly obvious that the Progressives are presenting us with "another Jesus", a diabolical idolatrous counterfeit:

http://myocn.net/another-jesus/

"Those welcoming the gay cultural steam-roller also proclaim another Jesus—one who blesses any sexual union as long as the partners love each other. This Jesus presumably would have no time for the prescriptions in the Law which denounce homosexuality as “an abomination” (Leviticus 21:13); nor would He thank St. Paul for writing in his epistle that homosexual behaviour was “against nature” (Romans 1:26), and that practicing homosexuals were among those who would not inherit the Kingdom (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). Instead, His anger and indignation would be turned on those who denounce such behaviour and refuse to celebrate it. This Jesus is a nice Jesus, harmless, sweet, emphatically open, inclusive, and non-judgmental. There is nothing sinful that would provoke His condemnation, with the exception, of course, of fundamentalists and people from the American Religious Right. This Jesus is, of course, at odds with the mindset of the early Church and the Fathers; and He would have nothing but derision for the traditional stand which condemns homosexual behaviour. This Jesus is therefore radically incompatible with the Jesus the Church has been proclaiming for two millennia, and is at least as different from Him as were the Nicolaitan Jesus and the Judaizers’ Jesus of the first century, and the Arian Jesus of the fourth. If the Church values its traditional past at all, it should regard groups which confess this new Jesus as it once regarded the Judaizers, the Nicolaitans, and the Arians—namely as non-Christian groups."

It's not hyperbole: the Leftist heretics are presenting us a False Christ, an ANTICHRIST.

Anonymous Coal Fired Brisket December 08, 2016 9:14 PM  

I'm trying to find a good denomination to help me better follow God. I tried Pentecostal but it was too weird for me. Does anyone have any recommendations?

Blogger ZhukovG December 08, 2016 9:23 PM  

@Coal Fired Brisket, as a Roman Catholic let me suggest that you start with a good bible believing church, some Baptist churches qualify. Once you are mature and strong in the faith then perhaps explore the more ancient orthodox denominations.

Anonymous Tipsy December 08, 2016 9:30 PM  

I pray we can find more "historic" St. Nicholas' to slap "progressive" Arius' for their heresies.

Anonymous Axe Head December 08, 2016 9:31 PM  

Lol at theocrats wishing the USA were ruled by....Ted Cruz, maybe?

Blogger CM December 08, 2016 9:32 PM  

Coal Fired Brisket wrote:I'm trying to find a good denomination to help me better follow God. I tried Pentecostal but it was too weird for me. Does anyone have any recommendations?

I'm an Episcopalian. I recommend the Catholic church =p

The Liturgy and sacraments are built around self-discipline and a type of stubbornness of faith regardless of how you feel. While there is room for feelings, even when the feelings aren't there, the ritual of worship keeps you grounded in the faith.

Blogger Bob Loblaw December 08, 2016 9:32 PM  

Progressive Christians believe their religion is a historical accident of circumstances and people, that Jesus Christ is, at best, a divinely inspired teacher, that the Scriptures are flawed human documents influenced by paganism and that the church is a body of spiritually minded people who wish to bring peace and justice to all and make the world a better place.

If you don't believe in the divinity of Christ, you're not actually a Christian.

Blogger CM December 08, 2016 9:34 PM  

for my previous comment "built around" is a bit inaccurate... its built around Christ and not ourselves... so the lack of focus on ourselves creates the atmosphere that how you feel at any given moment is not crucial to the worship.

Blogger FUCK GOOGLE December 08, 2016 9:35 PM  

@15, there is only one true Church. It is under grievous assault right now, but it remains the True Church.

OpenID basementhomebrewer December 08, 2016 9:38 PM  

If we are truly being honest with ourselves, it is women's influence that has wrecked the Church. They have prioritized the social aspects of the church over the spiritual. Women are not all to blame because it is faithless and weak men that have decided that giving in is preferable to a 20 minute spat. Either way as a 30 something I have noticed that it is impossible to find a church as rooted in the gospel as I attended in my teens. I first noticed the drastic change and diminishment of the word of Christ in my late teens. It was not pure then, but it has taken a precipitous drop in the last decade and a half. Now it's all designer coffees and pop-knock off or straight up pop music.

Blogger Viisaus December 08, 2016 9:43 PM  

"If you don't believe in the divinity of Christ, you're not actually a Christian."

Indeed, literally so, for no matter how great your opinion of Jesus might be, your admiration would be all about His HUMAN nature, thus ultimately being mere humanism. Humanists cannot properly honor the divine nature of Christ.

One could say that Islam was the original great Unitarian heresy. And we could really compare that manner how Muhammad crudely plagiarized and twisted Biblical ideas to the way modern Liberal-Unitarian false prophets have mishandled Christian virtues while pressing them to the service of their own worldview.

Islamic theologians indeed put forward the idea that greatly resembles the Hegelian Aufhebung (that greatly influenced Marxist theory) - that Islam had simultaneously fulfilled and replaced the earlier revelation of Jesus Christ that has now become obsolete.

Muslims and Leftists alike have a patronizing attitude towards Christians, as they tell us that they are running the show now, so Christianity really does not have any reason to exist anymore.

Blogger Ghost of Nathan Bedford Forrest December 08, 2016 9:56 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Orville December 08, 2016 9:56 PM  

Markku, I know the boss has kept you busy, but any progress on the home church app?

Blogger Ghost of Nathan Bedford Forrest December 08, 2016 9:59 PM  

As a former seminary student, the overview of this battle is accurate. Unfortunately, liberals have overrun the breastworks of scripture and tradition in mainline Protestant denominations (of which I used to belong while attending seminary) to implement their secular morality of relativism. A great overview of this dichotomy is explained in Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger's book "Introduction to Christianity" (written 1968). As usual, Vox summary illustrates the gist (and final outcome) of this battle. As it stands, I see "modern protestant christianity" becoming "unitarian" in both theology and practice, and as such, it will cease to be orthodox in its beliefs and practices.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130515224240/http://www.communio-icr.com/articles/PDF/ratzinger31-3.pdf

Blogger Orville December 08, 2016 10:08 PM  

Fundamentalist. That I am, and was a member of a fundamentalist baptist church for many years. That church went full retard on multi-culti and rebranding. The name now doesn't say "baptist" or even "church". It's just some happy sounding non-specific name. If you heard the name you would never think "church". That is how far they have moved away, and at one point 60 years ago, they were a leader among fundamentalist churches who rejected the liberalism in the SBC colleges and seminaries.

Blogger Cail Corishev December 08, 2016 10:08 PM  

Yes, "progressive Christianity" already ceased to be Christianity at all. It's a form of humanism that retains some of the forms and trappings of Christianity, simply because that's what its members are familiar with.

I used to know some "New Age Christians" who believed Jesus was not divine (or no more so than themselves); that God is Mother at least as much as Father; that there is no sin, only "mistakes"; and that there certainly is no Hell or punishment, so no need for salvation. Yet at Christmas, they would sit around and sing traditional carols with lines like:

Remember Christ our Savior
Was born on Christmas day
To save us all from Satan's power
When we were gone astray.

I would wonder, do you hear the words you're singing? But it didn't matter. They believed everything and nothing, so the words didn't matter, as long as the singing felt good.

Blogger tz December 08, 2016 10:08 PM  

Scripture says to multiply -
arithmetic, not to integrate - calculus.

Blogger dienw December 08, 2016 10:11 PM  

Here is some "Orthodox" religion. They just cannot stop. They are compelled to rub it in our faces.

Blogger Orville December 08, 2016 10:14 PM  

One of my favorites...

How firm a foundation, ye saints of the Lord,
Is laid for your faith in His excellent word!
What more can He say than to you He hath said—
To you who for refuge to Jesus have fled?

“Fear not, I am with thee, oh, be not dismayed,
For I am thy God, and will still give thee aid;
I’ll strengthen thee, help thee, and cause thee to stand,
Upheld by My gracious, omnipotent hand.

“When through the deep waters I call thee to go,
The rivers of sorrow shall not overflow;
For I will be with thee thy trouble to bless,
And sanctify to thee thy deepest distress.

“When through fiery trials thy pathway shall lie,
My grace, all-sufficient, shall be thy supply;
The flame shall not harm thee; I only design
Thy dross to consume and thy gold to refine.

“The soul that on Jesus doth lean for repose,
I will not, I will not, desert to his foes;
That soul, though all hell should endeavor to shake,
I’ll never, no never, no never forsake.”

Blogger tz December 08, 2016 10:16 PM  

The original Apostles had to contend with falsification and dilution during the period covered by Acts (do read it!). It is not that we are worse, but that we do not contend for the faith.

This is why I'm disgusted with those who assert some "equality". We are equally damned, and they aren't going to the edge of the gates of hell in our inner cities to oppose, much less destroy the demonic forces.

I've moved as those forces spend more energy or worse opposing me instead of the devil and his works.

Blogger frigger611 December 08, 2016 10:20 PM  

I think I read here some time ago that some female ministers in Sweden wanted to remove the crosses from their churches because they felt they offended their Muslim friends. Inclusivity to women and progressives is far more important than preaching the Gospel. Christ wasn't always as warm and fuzzy as he shoulda been, according to the wisest femmes. And so many rules. Rules are hard and stifling.

I like my Catholic church, seems pretty old school compared to what I read in many other places.

Blogger tz December 08, 2016 10:21 PM  

God is mercy and love.
Christians would support a Theocracy, but not some TheoBureaucracy.

Blogger frigger611 December 08, 2016 10:27 PM  

@31

Man, that is some sick stuff. I wish more people knew how many of their hollywood idols are truly repulsive, demonic assholes.

Blogger Some Guy December 08, 2016 10:34 PM  

I like the rabid puppies. I love trump. But this is why I read Vox.

Blogger Republican Mother December 08, 2016 10:39 PM  

For those looking for a breath of fresh air, I highly recommended Bro. Charles Lawson of Temple Baptist Church in Knoxville, TN. He has a YouTube ministry that I rely on for spiritual food purposes.

Why I like him:

He doesn't use much Christian material past 1900.

He will talk about current events, including spirit cooking, pizzagate,and is not afraid of the word conspiracy.

He addresses the spiritual differences between men and women, especially how it relates to the New Age. He also had a series on the spirit world, which I have found helpful!

He talks about being "born again" in the old- fashioned way.

If you want to stick your finger in the light socket and get a buzz, I can suggest his most famous "Hell sermon", which would make a liberal wet their pants!

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky December 08, 2016 10:45 PM  

Coal Fired Brisket @15, I'd recommend looking around for a Catholic church in your area that still performs the Latin Mass at times. That is critical imho, because it's a tell that the church is more traditional and less infected with the progressivism that sneaks in through Vatican II.

So such a church would be on the top of my list to visit. Go there and ask about the Rite of Catholic Initiation for Adults (RCIA). This is a series of classes that teach Christian doctrines, beliefs and the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church. You can go there and ask questions to the priest or (probably) deacon who is leading it. Should you choose to undergo the rite, you would be enrolled as a catechumen. Since the very Early Church, those seeking to join formed a body known as the Catechumenate. The moral and religious training for catechumens often took years, especially in the times of persecutions. But hopefully you will become a catechumen and enter a state known as mystagogia, that entails a very exciting and thrilling time for you personally. In the Early Church, the catechumenate were presented for public professions of faith and baptism on Easter, the Catholic Church maintains that tradition. Or, if you have already had a Christian baptism, Catholic confirmation awaits instead, where you will be anointed with sacramental chrism.

Since the topic is historical Christianity, this is a fitting way to do it. I'm not sure how the eastern orthodox churches do things. They would be my second choice if I could not find a Roman Catholic church near me that did not perform the Latin Rite.

Anonymous Eric the Red December 08, 2016 10:49 PM  

Faux-christians contrive rationalizations for their beliefs by picking and choosing cafeteria-style from Jesus' teachings. They reject the totality of Scripture, and thereby have no wisdom in its enactment.

As with everything in Christianity, it all starts with Genesis. Without the Fall, there is no reason for the Salvation of Christ. Without God's judgement, the good is discarded to be replaced by niceness. Without the divisions and separations of God's Creation, there remains only equality of Satan's anti-creation.

Blogger Bosefus December 08, 2016 11:01 PM  

Is virtue signalling more like a dunce cap now days????

Blogger l' Américain December 08, 2016 11:02 PM  

I think there is a huge potential to convert a lot of the Alt-White to, what the author describes as, historical Christianity. The 1488 crowd really has a skewed veiw of Christianity. Not all of them, but those who really geek out over Hitler.

I can see why he would use the word "historic," but I would actually use "masculine" and "feminine" to describe the divide.

Blogger Bosefus December 08, 2016 11:05 PM  

Uh... what kind of Christian needs a church. I haven't seen the Arch or what ever it's called in any tent around here lately.

Anonymous Elijah Rhodes December 08, 2016 11:06 PM  

Thanks to my being so high on the autism spectrum I'm a horrible Christian. Totally skeptical. I did try to find a local church, but they were all so kumbaya and shallow. It felt ridiculous. I think I'd actually do OK in a church that would challenged me intellectually, but sadly that seems nonexistent.

Blogger Tom Kratman December 08, 2016 11:07 PM  

Zhukov:

I wish I could be certain that Holy Mother Church isn't as badly overrun and near to surrender as the rest.

Blogger SmokeyJoe December 08, 2016 11:08 PM  

Chapter by chapter, verse by verse. A Strong's Concordance,to look up the words and their meaning, and as always, asking God for understanding and wisdom- one will go far.

Blogger Phillip George December 08, 2016 11:11 PM  

Secularism was a grand delusion. Maybe think of the Lord's prayer in these terms:
Owning your body
Owning your family and home
Owning your nation,

For Jesus' sake. Do these things for Him. Remember, against faith hope and charity/ Love - there is NO LAW - old testament nor the New.

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky December 08, 2016 11:13 PM  

Tom Kratman @43, you can be sure:

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it."

Blogger l' Américain December 08, 2016 11:13 PM  

@42

Try Orthodoxy. Its beautiful and very intellectually stimulating.

However, Christianity is not about intellectualism. It is about faith.

It is a philosophy and its principles do play out in real life, but you cant understand God with your mind, because your mental energy in contained within your spiritual energy.

Describing God in intellectual terms would be like trying to describe the ocean and its contents only in terms of what a boat is.

If you are really interested in making yourself right with God, and this is coming from someone who is not an expert by any stretch, you have to humble yourself a bit and admit that God is beyond your intellect.

Its worth it, fam. Being special in the eyes of God (understanding God intellectually) is a fools errand.

Blogger Bosefus December 08, 2016 11:22 PM  

Milo and Christians don't mix well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F81S50xL8I

Blogger random Earth dweller December 08, 2016 11:26 PM  

Catholic here. I've never heard a liberal priest I didn't think was probably gay.

Blogger Bosefus December 08, 2016 11:30 PM  

Milo and Christians don't mix well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F81S50xL8I

Blogger Leo Littlebook in Shenzhen December 08, 2016 11:36 PM  

My favorite is the story of Breivik. I mean, Samson. No wait, that was McVeigh.

Blogger Bosefus December 08, 2016 11:37 PM  

Let snakes be crushed by the heal... truth and grace is marching on. Glory!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qxxDC0p2IY


Blogger Lazarus December 08, 2016 11:39 PM  

To paraphrase the Tao Te Ching:

The Church that can be named is not the eternal Church.


Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper December 08, 2016 11:46 PM  

Bob Loblaw wrote:Progressive Christians believe their religion is a historical accident of circumstances and people, that Jesus Christ is, at best, a divinely inspired teacher, that the Scriptures are flawed human documents influenced by paganism and that the church is a body of spiritually minded people who wish to bring peace and justice to all and make the world a better place.

If you don't believe in the divinity of Christ, you're not actually a Christian.


Yep. There are pantheists New Agers and heathens that are better Christians than those churchians for they at least acknowledge Jesus's Divine Nature or part of it.

a little off thread, just for my own amusement I took Blue Rose which is a sort of progressive Mercedes Lackey themed RPG and converted it to a Christian RPG.

The crazy thing is that progressive views being a mutant strain of Christianity, the change only took a few hours.

Blogger Bosefus December 08, 2016 11:51 PM  

Milo should tackle the churchians next. Colleges is small potatoes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVYI9HO6aF0

Blogger pyrrhus December 08, 2016 11:55 PM  

I have never understood the theory that Christians can pick and choose between biblical passages, rejecting those that they find inconvenient....and I never will.

Blogger Tom Kratman December 08, 2016 11:59 PM  

@46:

Somehow I am not sure Francis has ever read that, or believes it if he has.

Blogger Tom Kratman December 09, 2016 12:10 AM  

@52:

Wellll...we did pick, or, rather, the picking was done for us long, long ago. Luther did some more picking, for those who follow his teachings. And then there's the question of literal truth versus things literally said (by Jesus) but for illustration's sake rather than because He had any particular event in mind. Did He give the parable of the lost sheep with some particular shepherd in mind who had had 100 sheep? Probably not. Rather, He was instructing and using a general illustration. (He was also not entirely above hyperbole, I think.) In any case, while treating the events in the Bible as literally happening, RC tends to see some of the stories given within those events, but not part of them, as allegorical.

But your point about rejecting those we find inconvenient is much more on point. There's a difference though between rejecting in toto, a sin in itself, and sinning while knowing that we're doing is a sin. Most of us sin, more or less regularly. Most of us know we shouldn't. Most of us rejoice that, weak as we are, we may still find absolution and forgiveness.

Anonymous Beau December 09, 2016 12:15 AM  

@ 15 Coal Fired Brisket

I recommend a church that studies the Bible in the spirit of Acts 17:11. A church that teaches how to read the Bible.

I recommend a church that regularly prays. Does it hold a weekly prayer meeting? Is said meeting a snore meeting or robust? Genuine prayer is bold as in Hebrews 4:16. Is said meeting just an organ recital of physical woes or are prayers offered up that God's will be done on earth as in heaven?

I recommend a church where the preaching accurately explains the written word and challenges the audience to obey it. 2 Timothy 4:2

I recommend a church that welcomes visitors. 3 John 9-10. And visits. James 1:27

I recommend a church that practices evangelism weekly and teaches members how to evangelize. 2 Timothy 2:4-5

I recommend a church that holds making disciples as central to its existence. Matthew 28:16-20.

I encourage you to look into weekly home Bible study fellowships. These group when run well teach scripture literacy, personal understanding of the word and accountability, and fervent prayer. I recommend the Officers' Christian Fellowship as an example of such groups.

Many churches have webpages; this is somewhat helpful in examining their beliefs and practices. Another method to help in the selection of the church is to attend a seminar on prayer, or evangelism, or how to systematically study the Bible. The attendees are self-selected in terms of dedication to discipleship regardless of denomination.

Above all ask your Heavenly Father to provide you fellowship to grow in his grace, firmly rooted in his word and joyously going about our master's business, fruitful in every good work.

Blogger Bosefus December 09, 2016 12:17 AM  

Where were you when they locked me up downtown and nobody bailed me out.
I'm going to tell you what's commin on down. I'm making my move and you come along too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR-33sqd_GA

Well son... that hot rod may not swing with the EPA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R7l7nDuj1o

Blogger Bosefus December 09, 2016 12:25 AM  

Well your name is not Willy Brown... lock him up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhFF_NhaUIU

OpenID anonymos-coward December 09, 2016 12:31 AM  

A good rule of thumb is to simply avoid reading Christian material written after 1900.

1900? More like 1000.

Blogger haus frau December 09, 2016 12:39 AM  

Timely article. I was just reading the comments of an fb acquintence on a post by a Mormon who was baffled why people call Christians hypocrites all the time. Her question was in reference to the latest Christian hosts to be fired from HG tv for opposing homosexuality. The acquintence held that although he was not Christian the Bible explicitly endorses homosexuality thus christians who oppose it (all 2000 years of them) are all hypocrites. Progressive Christianity is nothing more than a wolf in sheep's clothes....secular humanism trying to masquerade as something more meaningful.

Blogger Bosefus December 09, 2016 12:45 AM  

I'm a man...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvmeEyVd5w8

Blogger Elder Son December 09, 2016 2:08 AM  

Something to pray for:

https://youtu.be/pp7OBPYwLWs

Trump

Blogger tim December 09, 2016 2:16 AM  

Seriously? You want some VFM or DIlk to throw down? Only Vox is worthy.

Blogger Doom December 09, 2016 2:17 AM  

I am furious about these things. Still, all I can do is pray and worship as rightly as possible. And do His will even if that means the temple, once again, must be destroyed.

Blogger tim December 09, 2016 2:20 AM  

Solid

Blogger tim December 09, 2016 2:20 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger tim December 09, 2016 2:31 AM  

The point about Machen, nobody can refute him. I throw the gauntlet down to Vox to refute Machen. Vox may undermine his epistemic cred how he handles Machen at this point forward. I have faith in VD that he will come to search true Truth.

Blogger tim December 09, 2016 2:37 AM  

The point about Machen, nobody can refute him. I throw the gauntlet down to Vox to refute Machen. Vox may undermine his epistemic cred how he handles Machen at this point forward. I have faith in VD that he will come to search true Truth.

Blogger IreneAthena December 09, 2016 2:43 AM  

Reformation and Counter-Reformation tried actively--and often violently-- to eliminate the other --e.g. the Irish Catholic casualties of Cromwell's misadventures and heaps of dead Huguenots in France. And yet Catholics and Protestants are both still here, centuries later. In fact, they coexist on message boards like these quite chummily, and in real life, in causes such as the protection of the unborn.

Progressive Christians and Historic Christians may be in a battle, but it's a battle of ideas and hasn't reached -- and won't likely reach -- the white hot hatred of the Reformation/Counter-Reformation. The road to common ground may be easier and the two opposing sides will find it more quickly than did the Protestants and Catholics.

Traditionalists are focused on protecting sacred traditions from being killed off like inconvenient elders; progressives are focused on protecting good changes from being smothered in the crib by ignorance and worn-out traditions of men. Jesus Christ is interested in at least some of the concerns of each of these groups. Christians can be at different points along the Traditional-Progressive continuum, just as they can be at different points along the Pro-Catholic to Pro-Testant continuum. Maybe I'm wrong about that and maybe I'm not. Ask Him yourself.

Blogger Badger Brigadon December 09, 2016 2:48 AM  

Hmm... Supernatural.

I don't think god is supernatural at all, he is the very essence from which 'natural' flows.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch December 09, 2016 3:06 AM  

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY December 09, 2016 3:13 AM  

55. Beau
You are the best friend I've never met.
God richly bless you,good sir.
This world would be a better place if we had more Godly men like you.

Blogger Wild Man December 09, 2016 3:24 AM  

Christianity will continue in relevancy, but by way of the continued interface and tensioning of historical themes interplaying with progressive themes. That has always been the way forward for Christianity and will continue to be so.

For a 20th century interpretation of such ongoing thematic interplay think Carl Jung + Rene Girard.

The main thrust of Christianity is a prescription for enhancing of self-awareness. As such there is nothing contradictory outlined as per the historical beliefs vs. the progressive beliefs as presented in the two quoted paragraphs (i.e. - two different perspectives viewing the same metaphysical elements):

"The historic Christians believe their religion is revealed by God in the person of his Son Jesus Christ, and that the Scriptures are the primary witness of that revelation. They believe the church is the embodiment of the risen Lord Jesus in the world and that his mission to seek and to save that which is lost is still valid and vital. Historic Christians believe in the supernatural life of the Church and expect God to be at work in the world and in their lives.

Progressive Christians believe their religion is a historical accident of circumstances and people, that Jesus Christ is, at best, a divinely inspired teacher, that the Scriptures are flawed human documents influenced by paganism and that the church is a body of spiritually minded people who wish to bring peace and justice to all and make the world a better place."

Blogger SteelPalm December 09, 2016 3:31 AM  

Vox, thanks a bunch for posting this.

While it's about Christianity, it also perfectly encapsulates a similar problem with Judaism.

Namely, the difference between legitimate Orthodox Judaism and recently formed, progressive offshoots like Conservative, Reform, and Reconstruction Judaism, which are all utter bullshit.

I hadn't yet seen it elucidated as well as it was in that link.

Anonymous Eric the Red December 09, 2016 3:42 AM  

@65 IreneAthena (unspoken admirer of pantheism)
@69 Wild Man (progressive belief in the grand "March of History", tada !!!)

VD told me not to react against trolls, but I can't help myself.

You are swollen up with your nice intentions and your conceit. But you have no goodness or understanding or wisdom within you.

You have completely misunderstood the article and the differences outlined in it. You have both put it through the fantasyland filters in your minds, with the standard expected outcome.

You are converged.
Whether you ever believe it or not, at this point you are beyond redemption.

Do whatever you want, but don't expect true Christians to ever meet you in the middle, because that is the road to hell.

Anonymous ditchner December 09, 2016 4:03 AM  

God does not progress. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Therefore, there is no progressive Christianity.

Blogger Sherwood family December 09, 2016 4:56 AM  

The Bible explicitly endorses homosexuality? Man...whatever your acquaintance was drinking is strong stuff.

Blogger Phillip George December 09, 2016 4:56 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Phillip George December 09, 2016 5:11 AM  

I've said this before. The separation of Church and State is itself religious dogma - and wrong.
It's killing you literally.

Remember practical examples such as the Smithsonian Institute is contractually bound to promote the Wright Brothers as the Makers of the first powered flight. Jane's Aerospace is not so contractually bound to lie to you. Hence they can tell the truth about Gustave Whitehead.

Extrapolate into all media, academia, politics and science.

Jesus rose from the dead informs every discipline = all laws.

If you start with secularism you have amputated both of your own two feet to surrender them to priests of Moloch. And they will come back for your hands, eyes, toungue, and children.


Only Christians are contractually bound to deal in truth. The Smithsonian is an illustration of what happens to science if you let secularism run it. The Wright Brothers are the Wrong Answer. Think of this as a living parable of truth going down the toilet.

Blogger Tuatha December 09, 2016 5:25 AM  

I am going to make a poll of the percentage of believers' conviction on which part of the new testament is the truest. The gospel of luke, mark or matthew? Or the wildly divergent gospel of john?
In order to properly determine this I need as many numbers as possible. Feel free to give your voice and reason.

Anonymous Eric the Red December 09, 2016 5:48 AM  

@76 Tuatha

You are attempting the tired old 'pit the Gospels against each other.' That trick was worn out long ago.

Parts of the Gospels are summations that don't purport to go into great detail of each specific situation. Trying to use these as indication they are in conflict with each other has been disproven time and time again.

The Gospels are to be taken as a whole, within the context of the Bible as a whole. If you can't or won't understand that, then good riddance to you. You are just playing the game of Most Recent Accuser from Satan.

(Sorry VD, this is the last time.)

Blogger Lovekraft December 09, 2016 6:02 AM  

A lack of respect for quietude and reflection is another characteristic of the modern church. People who choose the simple path usually get pushed aside by the busybodies who, if they stopped and listened, would find that there is much wisdom in Biblical truths.

The world throws stimuli and temptation and it is paramount that a Church recognize and reject its excesses.

Anonymous Be Deplorable, Not Afraid December 09, 2016 6:04 AM  

Progressives go to church because it gives them something to do between breakfast and football, and the band is nice. Real Christians go to church to bow before the risen Christ.

Progressives like their Nice Christ, who's a lot like Santa Claus, except he never leaves coal in the stockings; no matter what naughty things they've done, He just gives them a wink. Real Christians both love and fear Christ. They love Him for his sacrifice, they fear Him because he is Good.

Thinking about it, Good is as terrifying as Evil. As Paul essentially said, Evil is what we know we shouldn't do, and we can't stop doing it; Good is what we know we should do, and we can't manage to do it. We'd be damned no matter what, except for Christ. I love Christ for lifting my soul out of the dirt; I fear Him because He can put it right back where He found it, if He finds my efforts unworthy. To be in the presence of Good lays bare how far we are from being good ourselves. No wonder Moses could not look at God.

Blogger Lovekraft December 09, 2016 6:06 AM  

@15: online, I recommend you check out Charles Stanley, Baptist. Stern and consistent.

Chuck Swindoll also has the pre-progressive sermonizing.

Blogger Mighty Lou December 09, 2016 6:14 AM  

For progressive Christians, as soon as they face any trials in life they quit. I had friend who professed to be Christian. He went to a trendy church where the pastor moonlighted as an indie rockstar. My friend's mantra was that he knew God's will was for him to exploit Christianity in some way so that he would be a rich and famous actor/musician/writer. Well, that never happened. He was bitter because of it, and when other trials came he turned away from God and bought a dog.

Blogger wreckage December 09, 2016 6:44 AM  

@75; why bother answering? Your conclusions are built into your question.

Blogger wreckage December 09, 2016 6:44 AM  

Sorry, that should have been @76

Blogger Roger Hill December 09, 2016 7:02 AM  

Researchers in Canada just published findings that demonstrate local church stability and growth is directly related to how closely the pastors hold basic Christian theology.

http://religionnews.com/2016/11/21/study-finds-churches-with-conservative-theology-still-growing/

They investigated mainline denominations whose overall membership rolls have been in decline for the last 10 years and sought out the local bodies within those groups who were the exception to this decline. What they found was that in local church bodies that were still growing, the pastors and teachers did not follow the progressive bent of the denomination to which they belonged.

The article was appropriately titled "Theology Matters".

Blogger JaimeInTexas December 09, 2016 7:06 AM  

The only theocracy I support is the one to be established when Jesus returns and establishes His reign on Earth forever.

Blogger Phillip George December 09, 2016 7:24 AM  

Jaime, it condemns you to doing too little too late

Blogger Paul Sacramento December 09, 2016 7:59 AM  

In a nutshell and undeniably, as Paul said, If Christ is not risen, then we preach in vain ( Paraphrasing of course).
To disregard the supernatural is to disregard the resurrection and, quite simply, God.
One can NOT claim to be Christian and deny the resurrection.
All else is MAY be "debatable" to an extent, but NOT the resurrection.

Blogger FrankNorman December 09, 2016 8:04 AM  

65. IreneAthena December 09, 2016 2:43 AM

Reformation and Counter-Reformation tried actively--and often violently-- to eliminate the other --e.g. the Irish Catholic casualties of Cromwell's misadventures and heaps of dead Huguenots in France. And yet Catholics and Protestants are both still here, centuries later. In fact, they coexist on message boards like these quite chummily, and in real life, in causes such as the protection of the unborn.

Progressive Christians and Historic Christians may be in a battle, but it's a battle of ideas and hasn't reached -- and won't likely reach -- the white hot hatred of the Reformation/Counter-Reformation. The road to common ground may be easier and the two opposing sides will find it more quickly than did the Protestants and Catholics.


Missing a big point there - Protestants and Papists actually have common ground - both believing in the Deity of Jesus Christ, for example, or in the reality of existence beyond death.

With Progressives, there's no such commonality, in fact no beliefs in common at all, since Progressives do not really believe in anything.

Blogger Daniel December 09, 2016 8:16 AM  

Being a man in my 40 with strong sex and promiscous desire, i have came tobthe conclusion that monogamy made my life better. Even if sometimes i crave otherwise

Blogger Daniel December 09, 2016 8:17 AM  

Typing in a cheap lumia sry

Anonymous Athor Pel December 09, 2016 8:39 AM  

" 9. Anonymous LES December 08, 2016 8:44 PM
How do you proclaim the dialectic Gospel in a rhetoric world?"



How do you know the Gospel is dialectic?

The truth can be proclaimed with rhetoric just as well as dialectic.

Of the Messiah's words how many are a punch in the gut emotionally?

What do you think the Spirit of God does in this world?

Dialectic and rhetoric are tools.

The Gospel is Truth.

Blogger JaimeInTexas December 09, 2016 8:46 AM  

@86. Phillip George

Or, it condemns today any attempting to setup a "christian" theocracy for doing something not delegated or instructed by Him who gave the marching orders.

Blogger James Dixon December 09, 2016 9:28 AM  

> How do you proclaim the dialectic Gospel in a rhetoric world?

"...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

The Gospel is simple enough that it bypasses the forms of dialect/rhetoric.

> They are compelled to rub it in our faces.

Of course. They want us to despair. They don't understand that there is no reason for despair. The battle was won long ago. The tomb is empty.

> 1900? More like 1000.

That would leave out C. S. Lewis.

> The main thrust of Christianity is a prescription for enhancing of self-awareness. As such there is nothing contradictory outlined as per the historical beliefs vs. the progressive beliefs...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkKv1dza6QA

Blogger GracieLou December 09, 2016 9:48 AM  

I treasure the pre-NuChurch "artifacts" from my now deceased MIL. Two things you notice right away about the reading material is how masculine, clear and straightforward it is. "Yes" means "Yes" and "No" means "No" and all that.

There's a Rosary Crusade booklet from WWII she'd nearly prayed to tatters (which obviously worked because FIL survived his stint as a P-38 pilot in the European Theater). Inside this booklet are detailed descriptions of battles (Lepanto, Muret, La Rochelle...) and the supernatural interventions therein. Imagine reading something like this today!

"Since wars are caused by unbelief, selfishness, immorality and revolt against God, a spiritual weapon is needed. That weapon is the Rosary, a very powerful armor against hell." That last part was in BOLD.

Blogger Martin December 09, 2016 10:00 AM  

Interminable, yes. Irresolvable? Hardly.

The Church is not like human institutions. It does not cease to exist when one of its arms becomes "converged." It is the Una Sancta, and it never ceases to be what it is.

However, the historic members in the midst of the major denominations have a choice: Stay and be converged, or leave and remain the Church. Because those are the only options. In a spiritual body, you will never resolve spiritual sickness with political solutions.

Leave. Come out from among them. The Word and the Sacraments will go with you. You still retain the right to call and ordain pastors even if all your bishops, supervisors, and vice presidents are cowards and pagans.

Blogger GracieLou December 09, 2016 10:23 AM  

@10. "I really have a hard time fellowshipping".

Me too. One time at a teacher meeting we were asked to share how we would bring the children to Christ. Fluffiness ensued. I imagined upon hearing such fluff, the average middle school boy would barf in his mouth. I said, "How about we tell them, 'hell is a real place and we don't want you to go there?'" Stunned silence.

That kind of truth doesn't make you popular.

Anonymous Dan December 09, 2016 10:27 AM  

96. GracieLou
"How about we tell them, 'hell is a real place and we don't want you to go there?'"
Sjws hear about this, one week later teacher gets fired.

Blogger Amateur Brain Surgeon December 09, 2016 10:31 AM  

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Anonymous Deplorable S E Delenda December 09, 2016 10:51 AM  

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Blogger Sagramore December 09, 2016 10:52 AM  

@9 Memes of course.

Blogger IreneAthena December 09, 2016 11:09 AM  

@71 Eric the Red wrote:VD told me not to react against trolls, but I can't help myself. I hope you feel better this morning.

@88 FrankNorman wrote:Protestants and Papists actually have common ground - both believing in the Deity of Jesus Christ, for example, or in the reality of existence beyond death.With Progressives, there's no such commonality, in fact no beliefs in common at all, since Progressives do not really believe in anything.

Paul Sacramento, you are right about some Progressives, but not all of them. There are some Progressives who are call themselves Christians (while explaining away anything supernatural about Christianity) just so they can build up an army for their social changes they support. There other Christians (e.g. John Wesley, William Wilberforce) who are called by God and supernaturally helped by him specifically to make the social changes they did.

I will say it again. Christians can be at different points along the Traditional-Progressive continuum just as they can be at different points along the Pro-Catholic to "Pro-Testant continuum. If you think they are heretics before you've even met them, it's likely you never will. That may be for the best.

Anonymous crushlimbraw December 09, 2016 11:40 AM  

Progressive Christianity is the easiest scam to discern for anyone with even minimum Bible knowledge. Gary North calls it baptized humanism.

What is much more damaging is the theological pessimism of dispensationalism. Here is what I wrote on my website - "The last piece of the puzzle: Religion. Where does that fit in our scenario?

Interestingly enough, the last people to fess up to our responsibility in forming the culture are Christians. We have abandoned it, starting more than 100 years ago, and now accuse that culture of persecuting us. So what do we expect? If you leave the battlefield, who wins?
Beginning about 200 years ago, the concept of dispensational premillennialism took root in American evangelical churchianity – the belief that Jesus would return when the world was at its precipice of total disaster. There have always been end time doomsayers, but now it has become mainstream in the evangelical movement.
As Gary North, one of my favorite authors, states - this is an operational alliance between the secular humanists and evangelical Christians – and has it ever been successful. The seculars run the country and the evangelical Christians retreat to their enclaves, waiting for Christ to save them and the situation.
As to Christ’s instructions to ‘make disciples of all nations’, well, that can always be explained away as saving souls.
I am speaking on this topic from personal experience. I was one of them for 20 some years.

This topic can become somewhat laborious for the uninitiated, so I will leave it here for now and as the blog archive expands, there will be plenty of resources to explore this at length. As far as I am concerned, it is the primary factor why our country has descended into a cultural morass.

This one, fellow Christian, is on us! Be sure to check out the Christian Action Project (CAP) in the archive."

Throughout this journey, I have relied greatly on resources from American Vision and Gary North's books on Christian Reconstruction theory.
The greatest benefit I have derived from these resources is their realistic overview of theology, history and Christian responsibility. It is neither theocracy or escapism from civilization - it is reality!
In many ways, it relates to my political leanings of Alt Right and are perfectly complementary.

Blogger Kep Hartman December 09, 2016 12:04 PM  

I am not that well versed in Christianity, though having been baptized in the Presbyterian church, I claim it as my faith. I have sought to live a life of virtue and follow the path of Christ.

That said, I cannot reconcile my thinking that Muslims and Progressives are evil in that they are antithetical to Christianity, and thus they pose an existential threat to my Western/American people---and thus should be taken as enemies demanding of war.

Love thy neighbor? Yes, that is Christian.

Love thine enemy? Not a chance! Survival seems to be in the balance.

Let the world burn and hope myself and my progeny can live as a Remnant? Seems nihilistic and less than high probability.

Help me understand/reconcile, please!

Blogger James Dixon December 09, 2016 12:08 PM  

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Blogger IreneAthena December 09, 2016 12:22 PM  

@100 IreneAthena wrote:Paul Sacramento, you are right about some Progressives, but not all of them. I'm sorry Paul Sacramento, I was responding to @88 FrankNorman, but I made a mistake and typed your name instead.

Blogger IreneAthena December 09, 2016 12:29 PM  

I believe someone's fixin' to snark out: NAPALT. I've pre-enjoyed your hypothetical joke and will go on my merry way.

Blogger Student in Blue December 09, 2016 12:42 PM  

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Blogger The Aardvark December 09, 2016 1:36 PM  

@100
(do you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins? Congratulations, that's all you need)

I think that the apostle Peter might disagree. (See Acts 2)

Anonymous BGKB December 09, 2016 1:39 PM  

Turns out some of the imported 3rd world is seeing the light:
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/12/09/church-new-clientele-masturbating-pews/

"Holy Trinity church as newcomers are reported to yell loudly and smash liquor bottles during services, masturbate in the pews and urinate and defecate both inside and in the church grounds.

Concerned locals have even reported concern over attempts to kidnap children during baptism.

Blogger Student in Blue December 09, 2016 2:00 PM  

@The Aardvark
I think that the apostle Peter might disagree. (See Acts 2)

That's sanctification, not justification.

Anonymous Deplorable S E Delenda December 09, 2016 2:11 PM  

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Blogger GracieLou December 09, 2016 2:15 PM  

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Blogger Markku December 09, 2016 2:42 PM  

Thread sanitized of Protestant-Catholic fight. The fact that your comment was deleted, is not necessarily an attack on your person.

Don't continue it.

Blogger Viisaus December 09, 2016 2:43 PM  

"The original Apostles had to contend with falsification and dilution during the period covered by Acts (do read it!)."

Indeed; here is some ecumenical dialogue from Apostle Paul:

"But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. 9Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, And said, 'O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?'" (Acts 13)

Blogger Viisaus December 09, 2016 2:48 PM  

"Prechter once wrote that it is characterized by the Jungian archetype of flight; this is a feeling that people are no longer constrained by Earthly limits and that their reality is redefined and without physical constraints (like gravity.)"

THis is the basic appeal of the anti-material Gnostic heresy; to become fleshless gods without physical limitations.

Blogger Viisaus December 09, 2016 2:51 PM  

Polish Alt Right poet Leo Yankevich expressed the same appeal thus:

"Manichaeans


Indistinguishable from the dark, a rat
crawls through debris. Above, aloof and pale,
the moon shines on all the heavens and hells
of the city, shines on the good and bad

alike, more intimately than the sun.
Two pounds of dung sit in our bodies' bowels,
waiting to be released. The sweat on our brows,
the warm saliva on our twisted tongues

shall be purified in estuaries,
merge with the thoughts of seals and otters.
Our sperm and eggs become sons and daughters,
but what of the husks of all our worries,

of our falling lungs and aching gallstones,
of the scabs from our wounds, of our bad blood?
We prefer abstractions, words like: love
and redemption; hate the meat on our bones,

gag at the worms that cleanse us, yield to blight.
We are purists at heart. But, if only
it would stop pounding, if only we could be
fleshless, if only we could be like light."

Blogger Viisaus December 09, 2016 2:57 PM  

And another reactionary poet, G.K. Chesterton, describes where the Gnostic-Manichean project actually ends up with - total alienation from both true God and the natural order He instituted:

"THE MODERN MANICHEE


He sayeth there is no sin, and all his sin
Swells round him into a world made merciless;
The midnight of his universe of shame
Is the vast shadow of his shamelessness.
He blames all that begat him, gods or brutes,
And sires not sons he chides as with a rod.
The sins of the children visited on the fathers
Through all generations, back to a jealous God.

The fields that heal the humble, the happy forests
That sing to men confessed and men consoled,
To him are jungles only, greedy and groping,
Heartlessly new, unvenerably old.
Beyond the pride of his own cold compassion
Is only cruelty and imputed pain:
Matched with that mood, a boy's sport in the forest
Makes comrades of the slayer and the slain.

The innocent lust of the unfallen creatures
Moves him to hidden horror but no mirth;
Misplaced morality rots in the roots unconscious,
His stifled conscience stinks through the green earth.
The green things thrust like horrible huge snails,
Horns green and gross, each lifting a leering eye
He scarce can call a flower; it lolls obscene,
Its organs gaping to the sneering sky.

Dark with that dusk the old red god of gardens
Still pagan but not merry any more,
Stirs up the dull adulteries of the dust,
Blind, frustrate, hopeless, hollow at the core;
The plants are brutes tied with green rope and roaring
Their terrible dark loves from tree to tree:
He shrinks as from a shaft, if by him singing,
A gilded pimp and pandar, goes the bee.

He sayeth, 'I have no sin; I cast the stone',
And throws his little pebble at the shrine,
Casts sin and stone away against the house
Whose health has turned earth's waters into wine.
The venom of that repudiated guilt
Poisons the sea and every natural flood
As once a wavering tyrant washed his hands,
And touching, turned the water black with blood. "

Blogger Student in Blue December 09, 2016 3:38 PM  

@Markku

Apologies. I didn't think it was going in a bad direction whatsoever but given the long history of such kinds of arguments on this blog, I definitely understand why you did it.

Anonymous Disappointed December 09, 2016 3:57 PM  

@112

Thread sanitized.

Interesting choice of terminology. I'm sure Twitter thinks it's disinfecting as well.

Anonymous Deplorable S E Delenda December 09, 2016 4:14 PM  

@112

"Thread sanitized"

Was it dirty? I'm sure TWTR things it's cleaning things up, as well.

Anonymous Drummergirl December 09, 2016 4:30 PM  

GracieLou
That response makes me want to start going to church again - of course I'll be utterly disappointed if I don't hear that kind of truth there.

Blogger James Dixon December 09, 2016 4:37 PM  

> Don't continue it.

Apologies, Markku.

Blogger Republican Mother December 09, 2016 4:46 PM  

Gracie Lou

I had the task of "children's minister" in a small church and wrote all my own curriculum. I didn't shy away from the hell stuff as the kids in my class were pretty tough. I just wanted the Holy Spirit to convict them through the Word so that their conversion would be real, and not a manipulation.

Middle school boys love the gory stories of the Bible. Nothing like telling about Lazarus in Hell begging for a drop of water to ignite the imagination.

Blogger IreneAthena December 09, 2016 5:27 PM  

@107 @100 Yes, Aardvark. I do believe that Jesus died for my sins. Thank you for that kind word.

Blogger IreneAthena December 09, 2016 6:08 PM  

@107 Oh, I think I might have missed something with all the deleted comments. What you're saying is that what defines a Christian (i.e. "all you need to be a Christian") is admitting to God that you need his mercy? Yes, Jesus' blood is strong enough. But God's work on a person (sanctification) has only just begun at that point? Yes, I believe that, too.

Blogger SirHamster December 09, 2016 6:19 PM  

Republican Mother wrote:Middle school boys love the gory stories of the Bible. Nothing like telling about Lazarus in Hell begging for a drop of water to ignite the imagination.

Poor guy spent his life as a beggar, and then gets sent to hell to beg for water. Grimm's fairytales got nothing on that.

Blogger IreneAthena December 09, 2016 6:43 PM  

Sounds like a re-teachable moment. I can see myself making the same mistake.

Blogger Markku December 09, 2016 7:38 PM  

No, Lazarus was in Abraham's Bosom. It was the other guy, the rich man, who was in Hades.

Anonymous Didas Kalos December 09, 2016 8:38 PM  

@15, please read @55.
And stay away from dead churches that have a form of godliness but deny the power. (see 2 Timothy) #1 read the Bible. Study it. And keep reading it. Obey it. Believe it against all natural information you may have. Read the New Testament (preferably the KJV if you speak English) several times through this next year. Pray. REpent if you sin. BTW, if you aren't born again yet, do so immediately without delay. Surrender to Jesus and believe on Him. Confess Jesus as Lord! Rom. 10.

Blogger Markku December 09, 2016 10:29 PM  

Student in Blue wrote:@Markku

Apologies. I didn't think it was going in a bad direction whatsoever but given the long history of such kinds of arguments on this blog, I definitely understand why you did it.


Yeah, we now delete all fights, and attempts to pick a fight between denominations as policy. I'm sure that everybody who has been here for at least three years, understands why.

Anonymous Ahmad ibn Fadhlan December 10, 2016 12:40 AM  

Related item - this was interesting:

http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/catholic-bishop-we-are-witnessing-today-bizarre-form-schism-church-anti

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents December 10, 2016 3:45 PM  

Markku
Yeah, we now delete all fights, and attempts to pick a fight between denominations as policy. I'm sure that everybody who has been here for at least three years, understands why.

Good. I've been as guilty as anyone else and I totally approve this.

Metaphorically speaking, we stand on the ramparts of Vienna in 1529. If some sing "Eine Feste Burg ist Unser Gott" while others say the rosary, it doesn't matter. What matters is maintaining a proper mentality, like it says on the Claymore mine:

Front Toward Enemy.

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