ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2016 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Thursday, January 26, 2017

Interview with Moshe Feiglin

Moshe Feiglin is the former Deputy Speaker of the Knesset and the head of Zehut, an Israeli political party formed in 2015. Zehut advocates the return of Israel to the Jewish people and leading the State of Israel through authentic Jewish values. Feiglin was interviewed by Vox Day on January 24, 2017.

VD: What would a long-term peace in the Middle East look like? Is there any possibility for genuine peace between Israel and its Arab neighbors, or is this a situation more akin to the Cold War, which only time can resolve in its own fashion.

MF: You may be surprised, but I’m very optimistic. The reason for the conflict is that Israeli society did not make clear to itself what is our identity. I know for a fact, from talking to Arab members of the Knesset about the situation here in the Middle East that the reason why the Arabs do not accept the Israeli state is that they don’t see the new Israelis, the Zionists, those who are trying to create a new identity instead of the Jewish identity, they don’t see them as real Jews who belong to the region. Therefore they don’t accept them. I was talking to an Arab Knesset member once, and he told me, “with you, I will manage, because you belong here.” It’s not a territorial conflict, it’s a cultural conflict. I think that the wars we have around us, and against us, are a reflection of the identity war we have inside Israeli society. Once that inner war is settled, we’ll be able to make peace with our neighbors. It’s just like somebody who is fighting with himself all the time, he will also fight with his neighbors. It’s true for individuals and it’s true for nations. There was never a Palestinian nation, there was never a Palestinian state. That’s all one big lie. If, God forbid, Israel would disappear one day, immediately, the word “Palestinian” would disappear as well. When the Gaza Strip, or Judea-Samaria, or parts of the land of Israel were held by the Egyptian army, or by the Jordanian army, you never heard any voices calling for those pieces of land to be given back to the so-called Palestinians. They will always fight for a Palestinian state on the square inch where the Jew is standing. In order to solve the conflict, we need to start saying the truth. The truth is that the land of Israel is a Jewish land, it belongs to the Jews more than any piece of land on Earth belongs to any other nation, and they have more historical right to it than any other nation. We have to be ourselves. When we hide from our identity, we open the door to these demands and these wars.

VD: What should Israel’s position on Syria be? Was overturning the Assad government a legitimate and reasonable objective for the Obama administration? Should the West be involving itself in regime change in the Middle East?

MF: Israel is the strongest state in the region. When a humanitarian crisis, like what’s taken place in Syria, is happening right on our border, I don’t think Israel, as a Jewish state representing moral values, can stand aside and see vast massacres taking place. I don’t want our soldiers going in and getting involved with that war, of course. However, I think that a long time ago, Israel should have set up a safe zone, protected by the air force and artillery, where citizens running away from murderers, whether it is Assad, ISIS, DAESH, or whoever, can be safe. There should have been that kind of humanitarian involvement from Israel. Because Israel did not do that, we saw other forces come into the vaccuum, and they only escalated the violence.

VD: Jews are often, understandably, concerned about the Holocaust. But do you think there is a diminishing effect of appealing to the Holocaust, considering that it is beyond the living memory of most people today? How can anyone expect the Holocaust to make any difference to, say, the Chinese, who killed 50 million of their own people? Why would they care more about an order of magnitude fewer Jews being killed 70 years ago than they do about themselves?

MF: It’s a very important question. I agree with you 100 percent. When I’m talking about the Holocaust, I don’t think that it is something Israel needs to wave before the entire world, not at all. I don’t like that every VIP who comes to Israel is taken to Yad Vashem. Not at all! I’m not looking to embarrass anyone about the Holocaust and I don’t base Israel’s right to exist on the Holocaust. When I bring it up, I am saying that we, Israel, have to remember our own experience. When the head of a serious state, 60 million civilians, a member of the UN, with a serious army, talks about destroying Israel, we should believe him. I’m not turning to the Americans, or the Russians, or anyone else, to help me. I’m reminding myself that I should learn from my own experience. The right of Israel to exist is not Yad Vashem. The right of Israel to exist is not the recent past. The right to exist, and to flourish, is the message that the Jewish nation still needs to enlighten the entire world, and to help it flourish from Zion. This is our point. It is a positive point, not a negative one.

Read the whole thing at the Unz Review.


UPDATE: I found this statement of the Trump administration's intentions to be more than a little intriguing in light of Mr. Feiglin's answer concerning Syria.
A separate order also would lay the groundwork for an escalation of U.S. military involvement in Syria by directing the Pentagon and the State Department to craft a plan to create safe zones for civilians fleeing the conflict there, those familiar with the plans said. Mr. Trump has said such safe zones could serve as an alternative to admitting refugees to the U.S. News of the actions, which are expected Thursday, was met with distress across the Middle East. They point to a dramatic reshaping of America’s relations in the region by a president just days in office, when the U.S. is engaged on multiple fronts in the fight against the Islamic State terrorist group.
Safe zones are an excellent idea, as they permit humanitarian actions to be performed while avoiding most direct military engagement as well as preventing aliens from invading the nation.

Labels: ,

121 Comments:

Blogger Bruce January 26, 2017 4:41 AM  

So does this represent a resurrection of Rabbi Kahane's Kach party?

Anonymous MawBTS January 26, 2017 4:47 AM  

Thanks for the interview.

He gives long-winded (and vague) answers, which obviously qualifies him for a long and successful political career but doesn't make him particularly readable.

What does it mean to say "Israeli society did not make clear to itself what is our identity", and why would this solve (eg) the problem of the settlements on the West Bank? What about the international opinion that Israel expansionism has contributed to wars in the region?

Blogger synp January 26, 2017 4:50 AM  

He's an interesting politician, but he's avoiding the elephant in the room. When he's talking about Israel, he's talking about all the territory west of the Jordan river, including what is variously called the contested territories, the occupied territories, or Judea and Samaria. Not sure if he's including Gaza.

That territory is 30-45% Muslim (estimates vary). His vision is full of integration of eastern Jews with western Jews and even Ethiopian Jews. It's totally missing how he intends to make the country work with such a huge Muslim minority. As long as there is no official peace, they live in a temporary stateless status. Any peace agreement will involve a permanent status for them. And if that vision is a 1-state solution, then their permanent status is in some capacity within the Jewish state.

Perhaps Shimshon can shed light on what Zehut's plans are for the long term? It's gotta be better than Likud and Labour who have no plan at all, but still.

Blogger VD January 26, 2017 4:52 AM  

He's an interesting politician, but he's avoiding the elephant in the room.

He's not avoiding anything. We ran out of time. I'm told there is a good chance of doing Part II soon. My understanding is that he believes individually-focused buyouts will be successful in repatriating the Arabs.

Which, one notes, might well be the right approach in the USA as well.

Blogger synp January 26, 2017 4:56 AM  

Bruce wrote:So does this represent a resurrection of Rabbi Kahane's Kach party?
Not quite. Kahane wanted a big government enforcing Jewish Halacha, while at least Feiglin is libertarian.

Kach advocated forceful removal of all Arabs from Israel. Zehut does not.

Blogger JACIII January 26, 2017 4:58 AM  

How refreshing. I is always better to get a perspective from the actual ground in contention.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the MSM hasn't made this idea known as it flies in the face of the sexy secular utopia they are trying to sell. That is, of course, giving them credit for actually looking into the clusterfuck that is Isreal.

Blogger Shimshon January 26, 2017 4:59 AM  

I am at a loss to understand how Israeli expansionism contributed to the war in Syria.

Identity. Look at it this way. Moshe predicted long ago that the embassy won't be moved, and there will be no passage of any law boosting sovereignty in Judea and Samaria. And our standing in the world will continue to falter. So what he says is testable. Assert our identity by doing things like renouncing Oslo, asserting full legal sovereignty over our lands, and formally and openly calling for the US embassy to be moved to our designated capital. He predicts none of those will happen as Bibi continues to try to straddle the disappearing fence.

I predict the government coalition will fall as its inherent contradictions become ever more glaring.

Blogger VD January 26, 2017 5:01 AM  

I am at a loss to understand how Israeli expansionism contributed to the war in Syria.

Who said that it did?

Blogger Shimshon January 26, 2017 5:03 AM  

@8 Sorry, that was addressed to this comment by MawBTS:

What about the international opinion that Israel expansionism has contributed to wars in the region?

Blogger synp January 26, 2017 5:05 AM  

VD wrote:He's an interesting politician, but he's avoiding the elephant in the room.

He's not avoiding anything. We ran out of time. I'm told there is a good chance of doing Part II soon. My understanding is that he believes individually-focused buyouts will be successful in repatriating the Arabs.

Which, one notes, might well be the right approach in the USA as well.


You are not the first to ever interview him. Zehut's website avoids the subject as well. While he has talked about "encouraging" immigration of Arabs from Israel as long as they get full citizenship in whatever Arab country accepts them, he acknowledges that this won't be a significant portion of the Muslim population any time soon, and opposes forced expulsion.

I don't believe a state with a 60:40 proportion of Jews to Muslims is viable, and that seems to be the goal he's working towards.

Anonymous Eduardo January 26, 2017 5:08 AM  

That is... Different.

Yeah... That about describes how I felt after the first answer.

Blogger Shimshon January 26, 2017 5:11 AM  

@3 Synp, it's pretty much like what Vox says: "My understanding is that he believes individually-focused buyouts will be successful in repatriating the Arabs."

From what I've read, the criminal- or terrorist-inclined won't really be given any option but to leave, with or without money. Most will be encouraged to leave, with financial inducement. The country could easily afford it. And if President Trump suggested using the money flowing to Israel (I mean American arms makers) instead be used for the genuinely humanitarian purpose of resettling those Arabs elsewhere (for a limited time), who would object, if it meant a genuine end to the conflict?

Anonymous LF January 26, 2017 5:12 AM  

"the Jewish nation still needs to enlighten the entire world,"
Interesting choice of words.

Blogger Shimshon January 26, 2017 5:15 AM  

If the conflict in Syria can be resolved, that's actually a logical destination for them. The country will be badly in need of money and educated and experienced workers, especially in the building trades.

Anonymous Jay Will January 26, 2017 5:18 AM  

Made little attempt to address the question about Jewish double standards. Judged by the standards rammed down our throat everyday it is clear that Israel is a racist supremacist state.

And given Jewish intellectuals being some of the biggest pushers of multi-culturalism and the racism and evils of white nationalism its amusingly ironic to see millions of the lefties they helped create in West now turning on them.

Israel and Jews in general made a ginormous suicidal error in trying to undermine homogeneity in its home military base, USA.

How does one reconcile the idea that Israel is the most open country in the world when it explicitly states its a country run by and for Jews?

Ethiopian Jews sounds a lot like cuckservative black adoption program. Are they kept as pets rather than slaves?



Blogger Ron January 26, 2017 5:23 AM  

@Jay Will

Ethiopian Jews sounds a lot like cuckservative black adoption program. Are they kept as pets rather than slaves?

No, they get jobs like everyone else. They also particularly like getting work in the police departments and military.

Blogger Shimshon January 26, 2017 5:28 AM  

@13 Interesting choice of words.

"The basic message of Judaism is liberty."

Moshe Feiglin is a nationalist like President Trump, but he's also a libertarian very much in the mold of Ron Paul (for real). I don't know about you, but I would very much like that man to be the leader of my country. Perhaps in the process of leading, he will be able to teach the world a thing or two about liberty, even America, which has strayed far from its roots, as we all know (it doesn't matter how, but getting back to those roots will not be easy). First, he's got to sell his own people, who are far from on board with him.

Moshe spoke these remarks at the end of last November:

We want the whole country, but we want the minimum state as can be. We want a small state. We want a small government. We want to minimize the involvement of the state in our private lives. To the minimum that is possible.

People don’t understand that concept here in Israel. They think the state are their fathers and mothers. The concept that the state comes instead of the family is a communist…ultra-leftist…concept. In the Stalin regime the child that gave away his parents to the gulags was a hero. This is what we’re talking about. A state that comes instead of the family. We’re talking about taking the power from the state and giving it back to the community, and to the family. And we’re talking about doing that in all spheres. In education. In the economy.

Blogger synp January 26, 2017 5:29 AM  

Jay Will wrote:Made little attempt to address the question about Jewish double standards. Judged by the standards rammed down our throat everyday it is clear that Israel is a racist supremacist state.

And given Jewish intellectuals being some of the biggest pushers of multi-culturalism and the racism and evils of white nationalism its amusingly ironic to see millions of the lefties they helped create in West now turning on them.


It's a self-selection thing. Nationalist Jews moved to Israel. Non-nationalist Jews remained among the goyim and tried to convert them to non-nationalism.

At no point have the interests of Israeli Jews and American Jews aligned. At best Israel functions as their version of "the old country" with support similar to the support that Sinn Féin enjoys from Irish Americans.

These days support for Israel clashes with the politics of American Jews. Not as bad as Cubans and Cuba, but in Facebook terms, "it's complicated"

Blogger JACIII January 26, 2017 5:29 AM  

Jews do not overtly enslave anyone. That's what usury is for.

Blogger Ron January 26, 2017 5:35 AM  

@Jaw Will

Made little attempt to address the question about Jewish double standards. Judged by the standards rammed down our throat everyday it is clear that Israel is a racist supremacist state.

"Bigoted" would be a better choice of words than "racist". The primary concern is on identity and religion rather than on DNA.

When we took in the Russian Jews after the fall of the Soviet Union, we took in hundreds of thousands of non-ethnically Jewish Russians who also came in, none of those Russians have been repatriated or treated any differently than the others.

I am not saying that we should not be racist, perhaps we should adopt that view. But in general, I do not agree that racism is an accurate accusation.

Anonymous Jay Will January 26, 2017 5:36 AM  

Ron what are your thoughts on the forced contraception program imposed on Ethiopian immigrants? Goyim lies? Human rights violation?

People often neuter their pets.

Blogger Shimshon January 26, 2017 5:38 AM  

I'm planning to be at the Zehut convention next month. I believe it's open to the public. Any Israelis want to meet up?

Blogger Jew613 January 26, 2017 5:46 AM  

Bruce wrote:So does this represent a resurrection of Rabbi Kahane's Kach party?Though some of the leadership of Zehut such as Shmuel Sacket are Kahanists Zehut is not a resurrection of the Kach party. Rabbi Kahane zt'l and Kach were pure Torah, Israel would be a strictly Jewish state including the eventual restoration of the House of David and preparation for the rebuilding of the Temple.

Moshe Feiglin has the idea that if the government gets out of the way the people will automatically follow the Torah without coercion. It's a very libertarian view but libertarianism doesn't have a great real world track record. Among politicians I view Moshe Feiglin as the best option of a bad bunch.

Blogger John January 26, 2017 5:49 AM  

fwiw - I lived five houses down the street from Moshe for a couple of years. He is very soft spoken amongst other things - no blustering or ranting there. Very, Very, Very Libertarian - decriminalize pot, freedom of worship, etc. Not an 'Anti-xxxx' guy. Just Pro Jewish. He's a very religious Jew who is apposed to the Gov't forcing stores to close on the Sabbath because it's none of the Gov'ts business

Blogger Shimshon January 26, 2017 5:52 AM  

@23 "Moshe Feiglin has the idea that if the government gets out of the way the people will automatically follow the Torah without coercion."

I only read the English Zehut material, but I don't think that's his idea at all. I think it could better be said that he believes the people will embrace the Torah, which is not the same thing. Such a process is indeed happening already. He's just riding the wave.

Blogger Buybuydandavis January 26, 2017 5:55 AM  

Ask real questions, let the interviewee give their answers.

Is that allowed?

Blogger synp January 26, 2017 6:05 AM  

Shimshon wrote:People don’t understand that concept here in Israel. They think the state are their fathers and mothers. The concept that the state comes instead of the family is a communist…ultra-leftist…concept. In the Stalin regime the child that gave away his parents to the gulags was a hero. This is what we’re talking about. A state that comes instead of the family. We’re talking about taking the power from the state and giving it back to the community, and to the family. And we’re talking about doing that in all spheres. In education. In the economy.

It's more like that the state is seen as an extension of the stetl, with all the financial safety net that this provided in the European countries. I guess that makes the prime minister the "gvir" and the US president the "paritz".

We should thank god for the Arabs, because without them the country would head so quickly to socialism, even European SJWs would cringe.

Anonymous Rocklea January 26, 2017 6:06 AM  

I listened to a RedIce interview a few weeks ago with a Jew who attended NPI. From what he was saying Jewish orthodox and conservative Jews are having more children than the socialist. It make sense as the diaspora Jews are mostly atheist and not too interested in Zionism and the ones that wanted to return already have (to date that is, changes in the west may make the proposition more appealing). They may also get some more Ethiopian Jews, now that they have stopped sterilizing them. The media and the courts are however rife with lefties. From memory the interviewee was in favour of a single expanding state.

Vox's question on the holocaust was interesting. To my mind it is used as club. Most people of certain vintage when asked how many people from (insert country here) died in WWII? don't know the answer (myself included). But ask them how many Jews... You get my meaning. It is seeing diminishing returns which will accelerate as MSM relevance declines and future generations, as many in current generations, won't even recognize the term. Not so for Jewry as that is part of their Identity now and perhaps forever.

Speaking of identity, it occurs to me that absent Judaism, the Sephardic, Askenazic, Ethiopian and whatever else makes up Judah (I'm sure the more informed will enlighten), are a pretty diverse bunch, not to mention the Christian and Muslim populations. Seems very Propositiony to me. Is that a mix that lends itself to Libertarianism? I think it lends itself to another Diaspora.

Blogger VD January 26, 2017 6:15 AM  

Is that allowed?

By the Alt-Media, obviously not by the mainstream and conservative medias. I don't have a Narrative that requires careful, constant massaging and limited exposure to other ideas.

And if the Alt-Right is going to be successful, it is going to have to learn to find common ground between the various nationalisms and respect their varying perspectives on their own ground. If it is not for Jews to tell Americans, or Russians, or Germans how to live, it is not for Americans, or Russians, or Germans to tell Israelis how to live either.

Anonymous Garrulus January 26, 2017 6:19 AM  

@17 Shimshon
If the state wasnt involved in israel it would be overrun by muslims in a matter of days. So this guy is lying that he is a libertarian.

Blogger VD January 26, 2017 6:21 AM  

If the state wasnt involved in israel it would be overrun by muslims in a matter of days. So this guy is lying that he is a libertarian.

That's utterly ridiculous. A libertarian believes in liberty-maximizing government, not no government. He's not an anarchist. And Sharia is not liberty-maximizing.

You should be embarrassed at your brutal illogic.

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable January 26, 2017 6:30 AM  

Shimshon wrote:@8 Sorry, that was addressed to this comment by MawBTS:

What about the international opinion that Israel expansionism has contributed to wars in the region?


That opinion is false. Their neighbors are genocidal maniacs by genetics and culture, who can't even stop trying to slaughter each other. Like SJWs, Muslims always have an excuse for the violence of their inherent character, projecting their tyrannical instincts onto you, and then using that lie as a rationalization to exercise their true authoritarian thug nature.

That is normative for Muslims, and common for googles; but we have also seen that it is acceptable for Mexicans when they're in the local majority, which is exceptionally disturbing due to the vast swathes of land where that is the case now.

LF wrote:"the Jewish nation still needs to enlighten the entire world,"

Interesting choice of words.


The more tikkun olam, the more pogroms. This is causative, and it is a high-priority task for secular Jews to figure out why. (Hint: rootless nomads using it as an excuse to use their socioeconomic influence to reorder society in a way that makes it more comfortable for themselves, with scorn for the unhyphenated.)

Blogger synp January 26, 2017 6:37 AM  

Rocklea wrote:...They may also get some more Ethiopian Jews, now that they have stopped sterilizing them.

Huh?

Vox's question on the holocaust was interesting. To my mind it is used as club. Most people of certain vintage when asked how many people from (insert country here) died in WWII? don't know the answer (myself included).

Without looking it up (as that would be cheating) around 60M people, of whom almost half were Russians, and under 0.5M were Americans. The holocaust claimed around 11M lives about half of whom were Jews (the rest were Gypsies, homosexuals, invalids, the retarded and other kinds of untermensch). The plight of the Gypsies is very much underreported, because they don't have the political capital of either Jews or Gays.

Speaking of identity, it occurs to me that absent Judaism, the Sephardic, Askenazic, Ethiopian and whatever else makes up Judah (I'm sure the more informed will enlighten), are a pretty diverse bunch, not to mention the Christian and Muslim populations. Seems very Propositiony to me.

We Jews have automatic membership for progeny and a path to membership for others. This has worked OK so far, as obviously the genetic links between Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Yemenite and Indian (dot), not to mention Ethiopian are rather thin. The shared identity is there, even among the non-religious.

Is that a mix that lends itself to Libertarianism? I think it lends itself to another Diaspora.

I guess we'll wait and see, no?

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey January 26, 2017 6:39 AM  

@Shimshon
It's not as if they planned it 20 years ago, or anything. Wait a minute...

"A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm"

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey January 26, 2017 6:41 AM  

Tikkun olam, my friends. It's for your own good. Trust me.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey January 26, 2017 6:45 AM  

@Ron
...we took in hundreds of thousands of non-ethnically Jewish Russians who also came in..."

So was the DNA testing program for prospective Russian immigrants ever actually implemented? Or just planned?

Blogger Lazarus January 26, 2017 6:48 AM  

SciVo de Plorable wrote:The more tikkun olam, the more pogroms. This is causative, and it is a high-priority task for secular Jews to figure out why. (Hint: rootless nomads using it as an excuse to use their socioeconomic influence to reorder society in a way that makes it more comfortable for themselves, with scorn for the unhyphenated.)

When Feiglin says the Jewish nation needs to enlighten the entire world he means by example, as a Nation in the Land of Israel, not by being court jews in other lands, or subversive interlopers.


synp wrote:It's totally missing how he intends to make the country work with such a huge Muslim minority

He claims 60-80% of the Muslims in Judea-Samaria would rather live elsewhere. He says they could be helped to emigrate financially at a cheaper price than what Oslo has caused. Arabs who sell property to Jews are harassed and killed, otherwise they would get out.

Blogger wreckage January 26, 2017 6:48 AM  

It really is disturbing that people don't know the difference between libertarian and anarcho-capitalist... including a lot of libertarians.

Good interview, and very interesting to see other nationalist perspectives. Remember, de-fanging and reversing the whole "ISRAEL IS AN ETHNOSTATE" accusation is absolutely essential to those looking to promote ethnostates at home and abroad.

Blogger Lazarus January 26, 2017 6:52 AM  

synp wrote:While he has talked about "encouraging" immigration of Arabs from Israel as long as they get full citizenship in whatever Arab country accepts them, he acknowledges that this won't be a significant portion of the Muslim population any time soon, and opposes forced expulsion

60-80% is not a significant portion? Plus, the ones that stay are required to sign a loyalty oath, which, if violated, requires expulsion.

Blogger wreckage January 26, 2017 6:53 AM  

@37, so Israel needs perhaps to force Muslims out, but then confess tearfully and pay generous reparations.... like, to the market value of the land the Muslims were "forced" off?

Blogger Lazarus January 26, 2017 7:07 AM  

The Jewish Identity movement wants Israelis to stop acting like globalist colonizers (which of course angers the arabs) and simply aver that the land belongs to them
unreservedly, like nationalists (which will of course anger the arabs).

The conflict between the positions in Israel are illustrated here:



Secular Zionist Israeli versus Identitarian Zionist Jew

Anonymous Rocklea January 26, 2017 7:12 AM  

@33 synp said:
"Huh?"

Depo-Pravera, not sterilized, my apologies, but a long acting contraceptive according to Haaretz.


also:
"Without looking it up (as that would be cheating) around 60M people, of whom almost half were Russians, and under 0.5M were Americans. The holocaust claimed around 11M lives about half of whom were Jews (the rest were Gypsies, homosexuals, invalids, the retarded and other kinds of untermensch). The plight of the Gypsies is very much underreported, because they don't have the political capital of either Jews or Gays."

My point was most people 35 and up know the 6 million Jews figure, not to many know the others you listed. I don't think that is just anecdotal. And looking things up is not cheating.

And:
"I guess we'll wait and see, no?"

Indeed, 'There are no atheist in foxholes' as they say.

Blogger wreckage January 26, 2017 7:14 AM  

My answer is "The Germans killed 6 million Jews, about twice that number total in death camps" but I keep getting the total death count mixed up with Communism's approx 100 million global tally to date.

Blogger Silly But True January 26, 2017 7:19 AM  

"Historic right" is a nonstarter.

But it could open up a whole new industry of property rights and territorial law.

Do only manmade border changes have to meet the "historic borders" test or environmentally-imposed modifications get nullified too back to the beginning?

Can claim be made on property simply lost to global landmass migration? Plate tectonics? Or are those situations literally the only historic border changes that are exempt from "historic rights."

Let's extrapolate the claim as far back, I don't know, maybe Day 6. We had light at that point to delineate borders. We had the world. We had dry land. We had man. We had the concept of man having dominion.

I suppose if someone could lay claim to a title of being God's favored people, then they could reasonaby try to claim to have dominion over the earth under such a historic right?

Anonymous Jay Will January 26, 2017 7:23 AM  

@wreckage

The Israel is an ethnostate accusation is a direct result of people being called racist nazis for voting ukip, brexit and trump. And Jews in Europe and US are front and centre in those accusations.

How the hell can any Jew think ramming a million Muslims down The Huns throat is a good idea? Do you want them angry? Is the idea to wind us all up so we blow ourselves up again?

So much deception. Humanitarianism as psychological weapon to disguise first punch and make return punch immoral. Third and killer blow to Nazi thereby morally justified.

Blogger Lazarus January 26, 2017 7:31 AM  

wreckage wrote:@37, so Israel needs perhaps to force Muslims out, but then confess tearfully and pay generous reparations.... like, to the market value of the land the Muslims were "forced" off?



No. Tears are not required. Its a business deal. A buyout.

Blogger Lazarus January 26, 2017 7:33 AM  

How many people that are commenting now have actually read the interview yet?

Anonymous Baseball Savant January 26, 2017 7:38 AM  

Look, Israel is probably the most open state to immigration to ever exist, maybe even more than America. I think Israel is the only state in the history in the world that sends its troops to Africa to bring black people to be its citizens instead of being its slaves.

VD, do you think this is wrong in light of keeping a nation state itself combined with the Magic Dirt Theory? Bringing Africans to Israel would seemingly make Israel more African, and not make Africans more Jewish. It seems he says in the interview that Israel has handled immigration in a very successful way but then says we need to reassert Jewish Identity. That seems conflicting to me. I would think bringing Jewish identity and Israeli identity together would suggest Israel needing more Jews. Not more Africans who will magically transform exhibit Jewish identity via magic dirt. If that is all true, how can he say Israel "definitely a great example of a state that has opened its doors to immigration in a very successful way."?

He kind hedges his bets by saying they need to be careful, but admitting there is a Jewish identity problem and then talking about successful immigration seems off to me.

Blogger Lazarus January 26, 2017 7:39 AM  

Good interview Vox. I feared it would not get done ( oh me of little faith). Look forward to the rest. Feiglin has a MIJA mindset. (Make Israel Jewish Again)

Blogger Lazarus January 26, 2017 7:51 AM  

Baseball Savant wrote:Bringing Africans to Israel would seemingly make Israel more African, and not make Africans more Jewish.



He was specifically referring to African Jews.

Blogger VD January 26, 2017 7:53 AM  

do you think this is wrong in light of keeping a nation state itself combined with the Magic Dirt Theory?

Not necessarily. For all we know, the Ethiopian Jews may be more authentically Hebrew than the Ashkenazi Jews, who we know are, at most, two-thirds Hebrew and in most cases rather less. But it's not for we non-Jews to define the Jewish nation any more than it is for non-whites or non-Americans to try to define the whiteness or the American nation.

What the Jews did to America was a crime. What the French and Germans and Dutch did to the Jews was a crime. But what is done is done. All nationalists, of every nation, have to learn from that history without being angry and bitter about it. We, of all people, should understand a nation working towards its self-interest.

That's why I support Zehut in Israel, just as I support the Sweden Democrats in Sweden, La Lega in Italia, AfD in Germany, UKIP in Britain, the SVP in Switzerland, and, of course, the God-Emperor in the USA. Nation-first, non-imperial, non-interfering nationalism is the only rational way through the choppy waters ahead.

Blogger Red Bane January 26, 2017 7:54 AM  

But can Israel stand as an independent nation without the the nearly 10 million dollars of US military aid it receives? ( Congressional Research Service's report "U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel," written by Jeremy M. Sharp, Specialist in Middle Eastern Affairs, dated December 22, 2016)Can one even speak of independence under such circumstances?

Blogger Nate January 26, 2017 7:54 AM  

Fascinating dude. The holocaust answer is perfect.

Blogger Red Bane January 26, 2017 7:54 AM  

That 10 million dollars per day in fact

Anonymous Baseball Savant January 26, 2017 7:55 AM  

He was specifically referring to African Jews.

That's like saying I want our military to go get Somalian Christians in the hopes of the US having more of a Christian identity. Let them be Christian in Somalia.

Is he talking specifically about displaced Jews originally from Israel who happen to live in Africa?

Blogger Ron January 26, 2017 7:56 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Baseball Savant January 26, 2017 7:57 AM  

Nevermind, Vox answered it.

Anonymous Rocklea January 26, 2017 7:57 AM  

"However, I think that a long time ago, Israel should have set up a safe zone, protected by the air force and artillery, where citizens running away from murderers, whether it is Assad, ISIS, DAESH, or whoever, can be safe. There should have been that kind of humanitarian involvement from Israel. Because Israel did not do that, we saw other forces come into the vaccuum, and they only escalated the violence."

I would like to see more of his thoughts on this in part 2. Mainly because Americas involvement under... what was his name again... it was sooo long ago, it'll come to me.. anyway it was all about arming the 'good rebels' otherwise known as 'mostly peaceful protesters' in the West. Would earlier Israeli involvement have been any more decisive? Moot point and he did not answer Vox's question at all.

Blogger VD January 26, 2017 7:58 AM  

He kind hedges his bets by saying they need to be careful, but admitting there is a Jewish identity problem and then talking about successful immigration seems off to me.

He's a politician. Of course he has to be careful. Of course he can't reveal the full extent of his opinions at any time. I think he is remarkably and admirably frank considering his profession, not unlike Donald Trump.

But even the God-Emperor knows he has to keep some of his opinions, and his intentions, to himself. For tactical purposes, if nothing else.

Not being a politician, and not being interested in political power, I have the freedom to say what I think. Mostly because nobody really cares. No politician has that luxury.

Blogger Cail Corishev January 26, 2017 8:06 AM  

"the Jewish nation still needs to enlighten the entire world,"
Interesting choice of words.


That attitude shows up over and over in the words of Jews themselves. From the highly religious to the secular, regardless of where they stand politicially, there's always this sense that the world needs Jews to show it the light. It's either a God-ordained destiny, or just an obvious benefit because they have something the rest of us don't. They even think it shows humility and charity, because they're serving the less fortunate. They can't really see why it should bother us.

Blogger Red Bane January 26, 2017 8:11 AM  

there's always this sense that the world needs Jews to show it the light.

Interesting that they require billions of dollars in US aid to be about that business. Hardly an 'independent' nation

Blogger Lazarus January 26, 2017 8:12 AM  

Red Bane wrote:But can Israel stand as an independent nation without the the nearly 10 million dollars of US military aid it receives?

Prime Minister-In-Waiting Feiglin thinks that not only they can, but they must.

Blogger Lazarus January 26, 2017 8:14 AM  

Cail Corishev wrote:That attitude shows up over and over in the words of Jews themselves. From the highly religious to the secular, regardless of where they stand politicially, there's always this sense that the world needs Jews to show it the light.

Its a Biblical concept. Leftist secular Jews have perverted it.

Blogger Red Bane January 26, 2017 8:17 AM  

Prime Minister-In-Waiting Feiglin thinks that not only they can, but they must.

I agree. There can be no legitimate talk of a 'State' of Israel unless she can operate at some level of fiscal independence.

Blogger Shimshon January 26, 2017 8:18 AM  

I expressed similar thoughts during one of the many posts here during Protective Edge in 2014. I said I looked forward to the day that Israel's main "export" will be the Word of God. Someone laughed at the notion. I then pointed out that roughly half the world already excepts our Bible as...the Word of God. We're still not there yet, obviously.

Blogger Ron January 26, 2017 8:19 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Avalanche January 26, 2017 8:21 AM  

@20 ""Bigoted" would be a better choice of words than "racist". The primary concern is on identity and religion rather than on DNA."

On the contrary, jews have been absolute leaders in genetic "identification" research; jews unhappily let Ethiopian s "jews" into israel because their GENETICS showed a connection (they later stopped letting them in). They use genetic testing to determine (some) right of return.' They are a race,t hey see themselves as a race, and they are using genetics to maintain their race! "Jew" is no more a "proposition" "nation" than the U.S. is!!

Of course, to remain palatable to idiot Americans (and other nations of idiots) they keep insistng "we're a religion, we're a religion. (Let me see your genes before you can come in!)"

"Jun 17, 2015 - The Israeli State recently announced that it may begin to use genetic tests to determine whether potential immigrants are Jewish or not."
https://academic.oup.com/jlb/article/2/2/469/826237/Genetic-citizenship-DNA-testing-and-the-Israeli

Blogger Shimshon January 26, 2017 8:21 AM  

@66 I agree. There can be no legitimate talk of a 'State' of Israel unless she can operate at some level of fiscal independence.

Please, Israel is a rich state. We can easily afford to drop that support. Moshe himself has called for ending it many times. We would cheer President Trump ending it. But that probably won't happen with Bibi (or anyone but Moshe) in charge.

Blogger dc.sunsets January 26, 2017 8:23 AM  

However, I think that a long time ago, Israel should have set up a safe zone, protected by the air force and artillery, where citizens running away from murderers, whether it is Assad, ISIS, DAESH, or whoever, can be safe.

Welfare delivered by military means is still welfare and still suffers all the eventual evils welfare axiomatically produces.

This is either boiler plate or idiocy.

Anonymous Jay Will January 26, 2017 8:24 AM  

@ Lazarus

I read it right up to where he completely avoided the double standard question. Israel for Jews. Europe for everyone. Didn't even address it. Politicians avoid questions when they have no good answers.

The purpose of the double standard question is to tease out the underlying suspicion that, rightly or wrongly, Jewish groups promote multi-cultural humanitarianism in Europe to undermine them in order to make Jews generally feel safer.

The next Obama in the USA will likely be anti-Israel. A direct result of diversity. Diversity that Jewish groups promote. A suicidal policy.

Blogger Red Bane January 26, 2017 8:25 AM  

Israel is a rich state. We can easily afford to drop that support.

Please do, because until then I remain highly skeptical of Israel's continued ability to exist. I wish you all the best. But I feel no need to pay for the experience

Blogger dc.sunsets January 26, 2017 8:27 AM  

Israel is populated by clannish people who, like most of the rest of the world's populace, consider getting over on the next guy to be life's highest calling.

I tire of listening to representatives of clannish people parrot the openness of the descendants of those inside the Hajnal Line. Those who do this are con artists, pure and simple, trying to lull their marks into a trusting trance while the con artist robs them blind, deaf and dumb.

Blogger Shimshon January 26, 2017 8:29 AM  

@69 What are refugee camps but "safe zones." There are well over 600K refugees in Jordan alone. The East Bank (you see how I did that?) is thick with them.

For obvious reasons, we don't want them in our country. But since there was/is no functioning government on the Syrian side of the Golan, it would not have been out of line as a regional power to occupy it and set up refugee camps. Wouldn't Europe and Turkey be better off if Israel did that? It's all speculation now, since it never happened.

Blogger Avalanche January 26, 2017 8:30 AM  

@28 "Vox's question on the holocaust was interesting. To my mind it is used as club. Most people of certain vintage when asked how many people from (insert country here) died in WWII? don't know the answer (myself included). But ask them how many Jews... You get my meaning. It is seeing diminishing returns which will accelerate as MSM relevance declines and future generations, as many in current generations, won't even recognize the term."

Also on the contrary -- as long as AMERICAN elementary schools (and all the higher grades) have yearly "Holocaust Days"; and the classes are taken yearly on visits to Holocaust "museums" in every damned state!; and every Washington D.C. "senior trips" includes a day at the (AMERICAN-tax-payer-funded) Holocaust "museum"; and people continue to lose social standing and their jobs for even mentioning any question about it.... FUTURE generations here in the U.S., where it's an especially useful club for jews to bludgeon White Americans with, will continue to have an inculcated reflexive recoil whenever anyone brings up the Holy-hoax and the sainted six
million!

Fake media, anyone?!

Blogger VD January 26, 2017 8:32 AM  

It's all speculation now, since it never happened.

Hardly. It looks like Trump intends to do just that.

Blogger Old Ez January 26, 2017 8:36 AM  

"When a humanitarian crisis, like what’s taken place in Syria, is happening right on our border, I don’t think Israel, as a Jewish state representing moral values, can stand aside and see vast massacres taking place."

Absolutely nauseating. These people truly are "enemies of all mankind."

Blogger Old Ez January 26, 2017 8:38 AM  

To those who think Israel had nothing to do with the terrorist invasion of Syria, I have two words for you: Oded Yinon.

Blogger Shimshon January 26, 2017 8:40 AM  

@75 "Hardly. It looks like Trump intends to do just that."

Right, but Israel didn't. Anyway, it will be interesting to see how he responds to Syria, and how these safe zones play out in practice.

Anonymous Philalethes January 26, 2017 8:43 AM  

Another special six-pointed snowflake whose every life event and thought is supposed to be of Special Significance to All of Humanity. Actually, he seems to be a fairly nice guy, but this Chosen People stuff is really tiresome.

If it is not for Jews to tell Americans, or Russians, or Germans how to live, it is not for Americans, or Russians, or Germans to tell Israelis how to live either.

Exactly. However, there's an old saying: He who pays the piper calls the tune. The entire Zionist adventure has been massively funded by American taxpayer money and blood. (Not to mention all kinds of assets from other Western nations – Germany especially, of course – extorted by means of what amounts to a hoax.) It simply would not have happened otherwise, and the Middle East would be a very different place – still troublesome, perhaps, but nowhere near like it is today.

Why should I care a whit for what happens in a small part of the world 6000 miles away whose contentious peoples have little to nothing in common with Americans (by whom I mean the "Posterity" of the Constitution, of whom I am a member)?

While we're talking about repatriating foreigners, let us not forget the sizable number of "American" Jews who hold "dual citizenship" – an oxymoron in itself; as a famous man once said, "No man can serve two masters." Especially those who also hold high office and influence in the American government/power structure.

I think they should pay it all back. Then we'll leave them alone, and they can leave us alone. MYOB is an excellent rule for nations as well as individuals. Best for everybody.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd January 26, 2017 8:45 AM  

Lazarus wrote:there's always this sense that the world needs Jews to show it the light.

Its a Biblical concept. Leftist secular Jews have perverted it.


One might say that God ended Israel's part in that program when they rejected His messiah 2,000 years ago. Or, one might say that the only Israelites still involved in God's plan are the ones who have accepted His messiah. Anyway you look at it, modern-day Israel and modern-day Jews aren't bringing God's light to the world. That's being done only by God's messiah and His followers.

Blogger Harsh January 26, 2017 8:49 AM  

That guy gets it.

Blogger synp January 26, 2017 8:49 AM  

Rocklea wrote:
Depo-Pravera, not sterilized, my apologies, but a long acting contraceptive according to Haaretz.

Hadn't read that rag in a while. Anyway, looking at it now, it says that these were unfounded accusations. Besides, the health department has been under control of an ultra-orthodox for years. I find it hard to believe that they would force anyone to take a three-month pregnancy prevention shot.

My point was most people 35 and up know the 6 million Jews figure, not to many know the others you listed. I don't think that is just anecdotal. And looking things up is not cheating.

Looking up is cheating if you're asking what people know. Anyway, I'm 45, and while I'd like to think I'm exceptional, I'm mostly a product of the Israeli education system and reading the news. I haven't made any special effort to educate myself on this subject.

"I guess we'll wait and see, no?"

Indeed, 'There are no atheist in foxholes' as they say.


Perhaps, but that effect diminishes as the veterans get away from the foxholes.

Anonymous Rocklea January 26, 2017 8:50 AM  

VD said:
"Hardly. It looks like Trump intends to do just that."

Bannon or perhaps Trump himself keeping abreast of the 4G world. They definitely have an interest in nationalist across the world.

Blogger Ron January 26, 2017 9:01 AM  

@36 Francis Parker

So was the DNA testing program for prospective Russian immigrants ever actually implemented? Or just planned?

Neither nor.

Blogger Ron January 26, 2017 9:03 AM  

@21 Jay Will

Ron what are your thoughts on the forced contraception program imposed on Ethiopian immigrants?

Any doctors involved in this matter who are proven to have sterilized anyone should be taken our and shot. I dont mean that figuratively, i mean it literally.

those indirectly involved without having made good faith efforts to notify the authorities, should be permanently barred from any involvement in the medical industry and be subject to a maximum of five years imprisonment.

any and all public officials who can be proven to have signed off on this and/or were involved in planning it, must be permanently removed from office, and subject to 10 years imprisonment. if the people they represent object, and i had enough people backing me i would be willing to bring it to open conflict if necessary.

those are my feelings on the issue. obviously, i can only speak for myself.

Anonymous Rocklea January 26, 2017 9:05 AM  

@83 I wonder how long 'Fake News' has been around? Anyway I'm off to get my quarterly vitamin shot.

Blogger VD January 26, 2017 9:09 AM  

Avalanche, FFS, this is obviously not a thread to discuss statistics relating to 70-year-old events. Particularly when the interview specifically discussed the irrelevance of those events to most people today.

Get a grip and stop sperging.

Anonymous Rocklea January 26, 2017 9:13 AM  

oops @82 not 83

Blogger synp January 26, 2017 9:15 AM  

Baseball Savant wrote:He was specifically referring to African Jews.

That's like saying I want our military to go get Somalian Christians in the hopes of the US having more of a Christian identity. Let them be Christian in Somalia.

Is he talking specifically about displaced Jews originally from Israel who happen to live in Africa?


Their own lore is that they are Israelites from the tribe of Dan who migrated to Africa following the Assyrian occupation (~740 BC) and have lived there ever since.

In fact they are genetically indistinguishable from their Ethiopian neighbors, so they are likely a clan that has at some point converted to Judaism whereas other clans converted to Christianity or Islam.

Our lore is that it doesn't matter and that they are as truly Israel as any of us.

Blogger Shimshon January 26, 2017 9:25 AM  

@89 "Our lore is that it doesn't matter and that they are as truly Israel as any of us."

That's not strictly true 100% of the time. There are groups whose claim of Jewish descent are not accepted. Regarding he Ethiopians specifically, even bringing them to Israel was not without some controversy. I believe there was some interest in having them convert halachically (moreso than encouraging gentile Russians to convert) and abandoning many of their old practices. And there are limits. Almost no one supports bringing in the Falash Mura, for example.

Anonymous Philipp January 26, 2017 9:27 AM  

No, Vox, safe zones are a terrible idea.

Somebody has to guard these safe zones. Who would that be? Most likely American ground troops. So that might lead to U.S. troops getting into a fight with the Syrian government or even Russian troops.

And will the American troops know which Syrians are just innocent people and which are anti-Assad rebels and which are Islamic terrorists?

This will lead an escalation of American troops into the war in Syria. That is exactly the wrong thing to do.

Finally, safe zones are an idea that Clinton and the neocons pushed during 2015 and 2016. Back then, they were a terrible idea and they are still a terrible idea.

Blogger Shimshon January 26, 2017 9:35 AM  

@91 So that might lead to U.S. troops getting into a fight with the Syrian government or even Russian troops.

I think Putin would welcome American involvement, assuming Trump renounces any American intention to topple Assad. That would no doubt also include America turning off the weapons flow to the rebels. It's mostly or entirely American and European arms (or sourced from new colonial outposts like Libya), correct? America could cut off the money flow too, by turning the screws on Qatar and the like. Just turn off their access to SWIFT, which he has the power to do. If Trump's horror at the war is genuine, and I think it is, then it's only a matter of time until this war is over.

Blogger synp January 26, 2017 9:35 AM  

Red Bane wrote:But can Israel stand as an independent nation without the the nearly 10 million dollars of US military aid it receives?

That's a weird figure because that is per-day. Let's use normal figures which are per year. So 3.6 billion dollars per year. That, however, is not real money. It's a subsidy for the Israeli military buying American stuff. A lot of the stuff is more expensive when bought in the US, which leads to stupid stuff like (at one point) Israel was importing Hummus from the US. Hummus! Or it turned out that American military uniforms were made in Mexico, while the Israeli uniform I was wearing at the time was made in the USA (probably by Mexicans). The street value of the military aid is definitely under 3 billion, and probably under 2.5 billion.

For comparison, the GDP is over 300B. The government budget is around 95B. US aid is about 1% of GDP and under 3% of budget. So the easy answer is yes, we would manage.

This used to be more important in the 80s when Israel had a large trade deficit and needed to be able to buy military stuff even if it didn't have many dollars and nobody wanted shekels. These days we have a trade surplus, a bunch of dollars and the shekel has been more stable than the USD.

Blogger Shimshon January 26, 2017 9:43 AM  

@93 Israeli military expenditures ballooned to something like 20% of GDP in the aftermath of the Yom Kippur War, for years on end. Bad days indeed, when the money was sorely needed. The days of needing the money are long gone. It's a terrible thing that Bibi, no matter how crafty and clever he is, has declined to make even a small dent in the system, even to the point of making an even more horrible deal with Obama rather than take a stab at ending it. It's because he's lost his Identity.

Anonymous Philipp January 26, 2017 9:44 AM  

@92 Shimshon

If Trump came out and offered Assad an outright alliance against the Islamic State and AQ and would publicly announce that the United States has no more intentions of toppling him, then yes, that would be great news.

However just setting up "safe zones" would be a) violating Syria's sovereignty and b) would escalate America's involvement in the war. What if anti-Assad rebels would use these safe zones to re-arm and re-organise as they would most likely do? That was after all the purpose of the safe zones proposed and supported by Clinton, the neocons, Saudi Arabia and Qatar. What if Assad's airforce or ground troops then attacked the rebels in the safe zones? The U.S. forces would have to hit back and voilà we have the anti-Assad war that the neocons and Saudia Arabia and Qatar always wanted.

Anonymous The OASF January 26, 2017 9:46 AM  

The clarification of the difference between Zionism and the ethnic Jewish religion can't be understated.

Heck, even America's Evangelicals are starting to figure that out.

Anonymous LES January 26, 2017 9:52 AM  

How much more land does Israel want? From the river in Egypt to the Euphrates river in Iraq?
(Genesis 15:18)

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses were not Jews. Jews are descendants of the tribe of Judah.
Israel was all 12 tribes, ten of which disappeared.

Blogger Shimshon January 26, 2017 9:52 AM  

@95 Maybe I am wrong, but I don't see Trump going in without negotiating an entry. He's a deal maker, after all. Clinton wasn't. Her goal on entry would've been to stoke rather than calm.

That's a lot of what-ifs. Give the man a chance before concern trolling. How would these guys re-arm and re-organize without training, money or arms? President Trump is so powerful right now, he can nearly stop the war cold single-handedly.

Anonymous Philipp January 26, 2017 10:05 AM  

@95: Shimson

I hope you are right.

But I don't think the neocons and their allies in the Deep State will simply go away. Neither will Saudi Arabia and Qatar simply give up.

Has Trump ordered the Pentagon and the CIA to cease giving the anti-Assad rebels in Syria training, money and arms? Not yet. I hope he will soon do so.

If Trump wants to resettle Syrian refugees, he should force Saudi Arabia and Qatar to took them.

Anonymous LES January 26, 2017 10:20 AM  

Judaism 101
What Will the Mashiach Do?

Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)

The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

Blogger VD January 26, 2017 10:23 AM  

No, Vox, safe zones are a terrible idea.

Then I hope you enjoy the refugee family settled next to you. Because that's the alternative.

Blogger synp January 26, 2017 10:24 AM  

Shimshon wrote:@89 "Our lore is that it doesn't matter and that they are as truly Israel as any of us."

That's not strictly true 100% of the time. There are groups whose claim of Jewish descent are not accepted. Regarding he Ethiopians specifically, even bringing them to Israel was not without some controversy. I believe there was some interest in having them convert halachically


I remember the controversy well. But by now it is settled about the Ethiopian Jews. As for Peruvian jungle Indians who claim to be the lost tribes of Israel based on the Book of Mormon, yeah, almost nobody takes them seriously. Which is not to say that they couldn't convert if they wanted to.

Blogger Ingot9455 January 26, 2017 10:35 AM  

@92 I thought that we preferred having our enemies use SWIFT so we could see who was transferring money to whom. And that it had gotten out because of the New York Times that we do, and so clever people had started working around it and using other methods for some years now.

Blogger Theproductofafineeduction January 26, 2017 10:46 AM  

So that might lead to U.S. troops getting into a fight with the Syrian government or even Russian troops.

I highly doubt this as the establishment of safe zones would, if it involved Americans at all, would necessitate UN involvement which means Russia would have to buy off on it. With Trump I highly doubt the US is going to do a military action in Syria, outside of fighter sorties, that wouldn't at least involve informing the Russians if not outright coordination; which by the way Russia already claims the US is now doing despite Sec Def protestations to the contrary.

Blogger slarrow January 26, 2017 11:29 AM  

@60, Cail, I agree that the Jewish conceit that they have something special to share with the rest of us can be irritating. But I suspect it's a survival thing.

Think of it this way. Broadly speaking, nations are composed of ethnic peoples and territory. Territory itself isn't sufficient (alas to the "magic dirt" believers), but the concentration of ethnic peoples isn't always sufficient either. IIRC, Vox mentioned a family that had moved from the village just down the road who, after years in the "new" village, were still considered the outsiders.

Point is, it's difficult to maintain an identity without a homeland for very long. When times are bad, your group is persecuted or annihilated by the surrounding culture. When they're good, the temptation is strong to assimilate. Lots and lots of tribes have effectively disappeared after losing their territory. But the Jews survived as Jews for a couple thousand years even while living as strangers everywhere they went. That's a neat trick; other than the Gypsies, I'm hard pressed to think of other prominent peoples who have managed it that long.

To survive that long, it seems to me, requires both high cultural confidence and a strong aversion to assimilation. The Hebrew Scriptures provide both: the assertion that they are a chosen people and admonitions and punishment when they intermarry with their neighbors and worship their gods. It's led to the kind of behavior that we've seen: the clannishness, the us/them mentality, the manipulation, but also their prominence.

I say this to explain, not to justify. But I suspect that if the Jews hadn't acted in this way, there might not BE Jews anymore. They would have assimilated and essentially disappeared long ago.

It's an odd cycle, not without irony: to maintain their identity, Jews kept to themselves and wouldn't assimilate. This made them untrustworthy to the larger societies. To combat that, Jews sought power and influence to protect themselves, making them more clannish and less trusted by others, thereby reinforcing their sense of identity. As Vox said to Louise Mensch (who seemed flummoxed by it--not surprising since she doesn't seem that bright), the threat to Jews is less antisemitism, not more.

The other ironic thing is that if this Feiglin has his way, the "special people" would really be like any other nation out there: a combination of ethnic people and territory. If Israel can manage that, it would be interesting to see how the Jewish people operate without the constant insider/outsider dynamic.

Blogger Sheila4g January 26, 2017 11:51 AM  

Re the proposed "buyout" of some % of the Arabs in Israel: Question for Shimshon and anyone else - I had been told, as a child, the propaganda that Israel had bought X% of land outright, rather than seizing it. Is there a reliable number or percent of land purchased which is in what was the original 1948 territory? Whatever land was purchased I would assume was purchased from the Ottoman landowners, not the Palestinian tenant farmers. Is this correct? What percentage of Palestinian farmers were actual landowners in the 1920s - 1940s? Given that the other Arab nations do not seem inclined to let the Palestinians in or grant them citizenship, what good would any "buyout" do? How would this resolve the question of who genuinely "owned" the land prior to the Zionist movement?

I ask these questions out of genuine curiosity, but honestly have a "plague on both their houses" stance regarding how any issues are settled between Israel and its Arab neighbors. As long as America isn't involved politically, financially, or militarily, it's not our business and whatever happens is the locals' problem.

Blogger synp January 26, 2017 12:01 PM  

Sheila4g wrote:Re the proposed "buyout" of some % of the Arabs in Israel: Question for Shimshon and anyone else - I had been told, as a child, the propaganda that Israel had bought X% of land outright, rather than seizing it. Is there a reliable number or percent of land purchased which is in what was the original 1948 territory? Whatever land was purchased I would assume was purchased from the Ottoman landowners, not the Palestinian tenant farmers.

The soil in Israel is mostly rather poor, and without modern agricultural technology tenant farmers would have to move after a couple of decades in the same place. A few decades later it would be re-settled again. Most of the land was bought from the Ottomans at a time when it was deserted.

Given that the other Arab nations do not seem inclined to let the Palestinians in or grant them citizenship, what good would any "buyout" do?

A significant portion of the pay-out would be to the receiving country to "help them with the integration expenses." At least that is what most such schemes assume.

Blogger Shimshon January 26, 2017 12:06 PM  

@105 the "special people" would really be like any other nation out there

You might say...Chosen.

@106 Sheila4g, I don't know the history to that degree. Various churches own large tracts of land in Jerusalem and I believe many other areas. Land that was previously sovereign or stateless I believe was "claimed" (or what word) by the state. I believe correct as far as purchases (from owners, not tenants).

From what I have read recently, there has been a noticeable uptick recently in willingness by Arabs to sell to Jews, even cheaply. There are MANY willing buyers. I can't say how such an active policy would play out in practice. I have said above that while it seems absurd on its face, if the Syrian conflict gets resolved in any way, so-called Palestinian Arabs with money and practical experience in the building trades and even the professions would probably be welcome in with open arms to help rebuild the country.

Anonymous The OASF January 26, 2017 12:10 PM  

"Then I hope you enjoy the refugee family settled next to you. Because that's the alternative."

I can just picture a crowd of NJ liberal hypocrites, in their snap pants and Adidas T's, screaming... "NIMBY! NIMBY! NIMBY! NIMBY! dis is upsettin' Muh poodle Snickers and I tink' he's gwanna doooy!"

Blogger slarrow January 26, 2017 12:30 PM  

You might say...Chosen.

Heh. I did.

The Hebrew Scriptures provide both: the assertion that they are a chosen people....

Of course, the Christian rejoinder is: you're special because you're chosen. You weren't chosen because you were special.

Blogger Elizabeth January 26, 2017 12:32 PM  

Cail Corishev wrote:"the Jewish nation still needs to enlighten the entire world,"

Interesting choice of words.


That attitude shows up over and over in the words of Jews themselves. From the highly religious to the secular, regardless of where they stand politicially, there's always this sense that the world needs Jews to show it the light. It's either a God-ordained destiny, or just an obvious benefit because they have something the rest of us don't. They even think it shows humility and charity, because they're serving the less fortunate. They can't really see why it should bother us.


It derives from the whole "Chosen People" idea, held in a residual-form by secular Jews. It comes off as "I'm superior to you" or "I'm more enlightened than you."

Blogger Deep Thought January 26, 2017 12:33 PM  

Americans who support Israel over the US are traitors.

Anonymous Philipp January 26, 2017 12:37 PM  

"Then I hope you enjoy the refugee family settled next to you. Because that's the alternative."

No, Vox, it is not. There are more than the two options of establishing safe zones in Syria or accepting refugees from Syria.

The Trump administration could fund more refugee camps in Turkey and Jordan. It could pressure Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states to accept (Sunni) refugees from Syria. It could refuse to accept refugees from Syria without trying to set up safe zones.

Blogger Shimshon January 26, 2017 12:54 PM  

"The Trump administration could fund more refugee camps in Turkey and Jordan."

They could (although I think that's debatable), but they shouldn't. They've taken on a lot already. As has Lebanon. Why should they go anywhere besides somewhere in Syria? Turkey and Jordan could likewise start pointing towards Saudi, and things could then get vicious. This solution is expedient and not hard to do, if all parties are invested in it. But at this point, it's too late for Bibi to demand an open role in it. Had he done so early on, like Moshe called for, we'd be in a very good negotiating position for a recognized role. Our loss. And potentially damaging to us, regardless of what Trump says.

Blogger SteelPalm January 26, 2017 12:58 PM  

Good interview by Vox, asking Feiglin many of the questions those in the West have about Israel.

I've always been surprised by the claim that Israel is pro-identity and anti-immigration, and this was reflected in Feiglin's confusion.

Israel is, after all, only 74% Jewish. That's less Jewish than any European nation is white.

But of that 74%, less than half are pure Ashkenazi. Most are either Mizrahi (Arab Jews) or mixed with Mizrahi. Nevermind the Sephardic population or the aforementioned Ethiopian Jews.

Moreover, a whopping 17% of the population is Muslim. Compare that to France's Europe-leading 7-9%, or to the US's 13% black population.

Or recall how the great hero Meir Kahane, who called for the Muslims to be expelled was treated. Thrown in jail for no reason in the early 80s, ignored in the Knesset, and eventually had his political party banned by the Israeli Supreme Court for being raycciiiss.

Sadly, Israel is the furthest thing imaginable from an anti-immigrant, pro-identity state.

Blogger Elder Son January 26, 2017 1:19 PM  

Just let Russia deal with Syria and have their pipeline. Safe Zones sound eerily familiar. Right, Hillary Clinton. Safe Zones in Syria occupied by the US/NATO, is just code for "not occupied by Assad and Russia", and throw in some CIA fermenters of chaos with that.

Blogger Hen January 26, 2017 8:23 PM  

Yes on safe zones -- have thought this for a long time. We could fund a city or two, quite possibly with some willing European partners, and make an enticing place for refugees and liberals whose hearts are in solidarity with Muslims and other invaders. We need safe zones in South America, too... One of the great benefits is we could absolutely promise that white people like myself would not be there to spoil their view. The possibilities are endless. Incentivize going to the safe zone. It would be multicultural with lots of food courts -- got that, libs? You could do all sorts of things to signal your superiority and talk dirty about America all you want. Just stay there! I'll pay you!

Blogger Ingot9455 January 26, 2017 8:40 PM  

We could have the United Nations manage these 'Safe Zon-"

Sorry, couldn't finish that with a straight face.

Blogger Lazarus January 27, 2017 7:58 AM  

DEBKA has the safe zone plan up, or what they think it is, anyway. No Nato or UN involvement. Turkey, Russia, and the US have distinct territories to manage.


Trump-Putin safe zones deal ousts Iran from Syria

Anonymous Rightwing Zionist February 07, 2017 2:34 AM  

Happy to see Moshe get interviewed here and quoted fairly. I had very little experience reading your site before and was not sure what you're about or your readership is like but something (I don't recall now what it was) made me skeptical of you. I came to this article through google search about Feiglin. Perhaps your readers may find him a refreshing breath of fresh air from the usual establishment nonsense. I sure do.

If you are open to civil discussion with a man like Feiglin, I will approach your site with more of an open mind.

"Sadly, Israel is the furthest thing imaginable from an anti-immigrant, pro-identity state. "

But if we embraced our true Jewish identity, we would be!

To the guy citing "debka" : That site is well known to be absolute garbage for many years now. They make stuff up. Worthless source.

Anonymous Rightwing Zionist February 07, 2017 3:07 AM  

"What the Jews did to America was a crime. "

Oh I found what is probably the sentiment that initially turned me away from your site. As if you don't have any self-inflicted leftism to blame on your fellow gentiles for the evolution of this American society of yours. Get real. Leftist Jews joined up with your own intellectuals and got on board because it felt right having discarded Jewish religion for "social justice" in its stead, the leftist message of gay and lame american gentiles appealed to their conscience and motivated them.

Your preacher men in your very own churches are the biggest open border advocates.

The feeling of need to blame someone else can be very powerful but it aint rational.

Post a Comment

Rules of the blog
Please do not comment as "Anonymous". Comments by "Anonymous" will be spammed.

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts