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Saturday, January 28, 2017

Islam and immigration: a historian's view

Back in 2011, during my abortive experiment with doing a podcast, I had the privilege to interview my favorite historian, John Julius Norwich, whose Byzantine trilogy has pride of place on my bookshelves between the final volume of the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica and the Summa Theologica. In preparation for the publication of the three volumes of my collected columns, we discovered that there was room to include the complete version of selected interviews at the end of Volume III, which will cover from 2010-2012.

Thanks to Were-Puppy, who has manfully taken on the task of transcribing them. Here is a section of my interview with Lord Norwich concerning a subject that is more than a little relevant today.
After a long period of relative peace, Islam appears to have entered another expansionary phase.  Is this something the West is better equipped to handle, now that it has become increasingly secular?

I don't think it's at all better equipped to handle it. No, I think it may be worse equipped. I find what I see going on around me in this respect very, very worrying indeed.  I had thought, until ten years ago, perhaps until 9/11, that the years of religious wars were virtually now, at long long last, over. The last place they continued, really, was in Ireland where there was still this violent Protestant-Catholic division. And killings were still going on on quite an important scale.  But when that was settled, well, it hasn't actually been completely settled now, as we know, it still goes on. But we thought it had been settled then. And I thought good, now we really don't need to worry about religious wars anymore. We are all okay, we know where we stand. That's fine.

And then suddenly there comes this tremendous axe swing of Muslim fundamentalism, and 9/11, and all that, and suddenly we're back to the beginning.  I go quite often to the Middle East, and to parts of the Muslim world, particularly to Turkey. Turkey was a completely secular state, as you know, after the First World War.  And it was as much as your career was worth to be seen going into a mosque. But now the prime minister goes to the mosque every Friday. Everyone is wearing head scarves and a lot of young women at the university are earing even more, wearing those awful pale pastel-colored overcoats to the ankle. That has always been a particularly ugly Muslim fashion, I think.

There was so many of these girls I saw, about seven or eight years ago, wandering around in those clothes. But there were also quite a few who weren’t, which meant those who were were doing it because they wanted to, not because someone told them, or forced them to do so. They were doing it voluntarily, because they felt happier that way. That worries me. It leads ultimately to excess. And we now have that ridiculous situation where you see Muslim women now, far more than ever in my lifetime, wearing vast black tents covering everything except the slits for the eyes.

A lot of these women are trying to apply to become school teachers in England. It seems to me there is no way you can teach without showing your face.  You know, you can't just have a voice emerging from a black tent. You need a person, you need a personality, you need a character you can identify with. I'm very worried by this trend, because it's getting worse.  In London, every single year, there are more of these black-tented ladies around, you know.

Looking at it from the historical perspective, not the political perspective, but the historical perspective, there are about 500,000 immigrants arriving every year in Great Britain. What is the outcome that this sort of mass migration is likely to have? 

It really depends, I think, on the proportion that decides to integrate. Who decides to say, okay we're in England now, we'll lead an ordinary English life, we won't wear black tents or veils or anything, we'll put ourselves through school and university. And that's fine. Those people will obviously get absorbed.  But for every one of those, I don't know how many there are of the other side, who do not want to be absorbed, who want to go on carrying on with their Muslim ways of life. And this will lead to a greater and greater gulf in the population of the country.

From a historical perspective, does the culture usually tend to change the immigrants, or do the immigrants tend to change the culture?

I think it works both ways. There are a lot of cases where the immigrants have actually changed the culture, when there has been an enormous immigration. It depends on the size of the immigration. If it's quite a small immigration, then I think on the whole, it doesn't really affect the culture very much. But with a really huge one, of course, it can really swamp it.  And that's what I'm hoping is not going to happen in this country. But I’m very much afraid it is.

I can't help but wonder what Lord Norwich must make of London's Muslim mayor....

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64 Comments:

Anonymous Icicle January 28, 2017 7:14 AM  

Islam now, Islam tomorrow, Islam forever!

Anonymous Fed Up Aussie January 28, 2017 7:27 AM  

Who is the best historian for an overview of the entire history of the west's ongoing battle with islam over the last 1300 years? My public school neglected to teach any history between 465 AD and 1788 and I would like a good overview of the dark ages, middle ages, crusades etc

Anonymous Autocorrect January 28, 2017 7:37 AM  

peace not piece

Anonymous Esmar Tuek January 28, 2017 7:41 AM  

Dr Bill Warner on youtube is a god place to start

Blogger Lazarus January 28, 2017 7:44 AM  

Fed Up Aussie wrote:Who is the best historian for an overview of the entire history of the west's ongoing battle with islam over the last 1300 years?

I don't know if he is the best, but Bernard Lewis is a start.

Blogger Lazarus January 28, 2017 7:56 AM  

Caveat on Lewis. He apparently influenced Western policy makers to bring democracy to Islam.

Didn't quite work out.

Blogger Servant of the Chief January 28, 2017 8:06 AM  

Europe is full of cases of invas- sorry, immigrations radically changing the culture, even if it doesnt neccessarily change the make up of the people in the long run.

England herself is a text book example, going from Celtic, to Romano-British, to Anglo-Saxon to the Normanisation which changed it further (England post 1066 has almost NOTHING culturally to do with Saxon England before hand). This despite the base population of white Englishmen still being overwhelmingly majority Brythonic celt even today with the next largest gene group being saxon (comparatively, the vikings and romans have vanishingly small footprints on the English).

Another example is France, although thats an example of the invading Franks mixing with the latinised Gauls in the Carolingian Renaisence, creating France or at least northern France as we know it. Hungary is another, where the base population remains largely unchanged but the culture and language is full tilt Magyar. Northern Italy is, again, the same whose culture has gone from Celt to Roman to Lombard to what it is now.

Immigration matters, even if it does not wipe out the former population, even if it doesn't even leave a significent genetic footprint. It WILL change the country if left unchecked. Of course you have some counter examples, like the Basques who are still Basque even if they are no longer entirely the same people genetically, and you have Ireland which historically culturally absorbed their conquerors rather than the other way around, so long as they had the same religion in the case of the Vikings and the Normans (only differing religion seemed to pose an impediment to this assimilation trend in the case of Protestantism, so too will be the case with Islam times a million)

If the English do not do something now, it doesn't matter if they are not entirely replaced by non-whites. They will cease to be English. And speaking entirely from my self interest as an Irishman, that is not a good thing for us to suddenly have a kebab state a stone's throw away.

Blogger Avalanche January 28, 2017 8:21 AM  

Nice Breitbart summary:
The executive order, "Protecting the Nation from Terrorist Attacks by Foreign Nationals," contained these key elements:

Suspended the U.S. Refugee Admissions Program for 120 days, prohibiting the arrival of refugees into the United States from any country during that period
Ordered the Secretaries of State and Homeland Security to undertake a complete review of the refugee vetting process
Permanently banned Syrian refugees until President Trump determined otherwise, and
Lowered the ceiling of refugees allowed to enter the United States during FY 2017 to 50,000.


http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/01/27/refugees-president-trump-order-temporarily-banning/


Oh I am HAPPY today!!

Anonymous Anonymous January 28, 2017 8:34 AM  

@Fed Up Aussie:
Maybe try Warren Carroll's "History of Christendom."

Anonymous Rocklea January 28, 2017 8:48 AM  

@8 Avalanche said:
"Suspended the U.S. Refugee Admissions Program for 120 days, prohibiting the arrival of refugees into the United States from any country during that period"

PM Malcolm Turnbull has been in the media today, saying Australia's relationship with the US is sure to improve under Trump and he's sure that the refugees we're planning on sending you won't be effected by this decision.

Anonymous the management January 28, 2017 8:52 AM  

3, 2, 1 ... And #7 above begins derailing a thread on the threat of Islamic immigration into a f#%king discussion of whether the Irish were a greater cultural threat than the Muslims.

Where the hell is this Irish Derailment Syndrome coming from? I'm beginning to think it's a new form of hasbara or troll.

Every thread on third world immigration into the West is being re-routed into a bizarre and off-topic debate on the Irish.

Anonymous Be Deplorable, Not Afraid January 28, 2017 8:53 AM  

@2 Who is the best historian for an overview of the entire history of the west's ongoing battle with islam over the last 1300 years?

Bernard Lewis' "What Went Wrong" was a good read, it discusses the stagnation of science and technology in the Islamic world. As noted above, his ideas were important influences in post-9/11 US policy, which obviously didn't work out. Maybe Muslims figure everybody wants their women wearing black tents, just as we thought they'd want freedom. It's difficult to admit that some humans are essentially aliens vis a vis our culture, with a worldview that's essentially orthogonal, where common ground simply cannot exist.

Blogger VD January 28, 2017 8:57 AM  

Where the hell is this Irish Derailment Syndrome coming from? I'm beginning to think it's a new form of hasbara or troll.

No, looks more like an Irish monomaniac akin to Wheeler. I'll start spamming him if he keeps it up.

Anonymous the management January 28, 2017 9:01 AM  

P.S. Just a reminder - the original post is about ISLAM. You know, MUSLIMS. From THIRD WORLD places with DESERTS and CAMELS and WOMEN IN BLACK TENTS, without even the slightest relation to Ireland, the Irish, Celts, Romano-British, Guinness, Lucky Charms, river dancing, or St. Patrick.

Anonymous Rocklea January 28, 2017 9:11 AM  

I still come across people who don't get why I call it Londonstan. They are genuinely surprised when I tell them of the Muslim mayor.

Blogger Basil Makedon January 28, 2017 9:18 AM  

Bernard Lewis is very good -- again, with caveats. I had no idea what Islam was about. I had originally thought that Islam was like Christianity with Muhammad in place of Christ. That is very wrong, but not altogether wrong. Lewis is one of the first places I turned.

I would also read Tom Holland's "In the Shadow of the Sword". Lewis is the semi-apologist and scholar, Holland is a more traditional popular historian. He goes out of his way to be respectful (he lives in the UK and doesn't want to be stabbed) but the conclusions are fascinating and devastating.

Lewis' book "What Went Wrong" is very good at laying out the existential crisis of Islam. The failures of Islam have become manifest starting in 1492 and accelerating with the failed sieges of Vienna. The failure of Islam became more apparent -- even to the masses -- when Napoleon's expedition landed in Egypt and had to be driven out by the English. This, as Lewis lays out, begins a series of failed experiments whereby Islamic countries attempt to ape Christian Europe without Christianity. Unsurprisingly to anyone reading this, these efforts failed, which increased the existential crisis further. Rinse and repeat.

Lewis as a semi-apologist ultimately became afraid of the inevitable conclusions his work. It's like reading 2 + 2 = ? and then the author just walks away and shrugs his shoulders.

Tom Holland's book is extremely interesting as it attempts to get behind the veil of fairy tale stories that are told and retold by Muslims regarding the beginning of Islam. While it is often said that Muhammad lived his life "in the full light of history" this is demonstrably untrue. Indeed, often the fairy tale stories contradict their own "historical" records.

Holland lays out in an engaging narrative the fact that there is nothing behind the "narrative" that can be known for certain and what is known for certain contradicts the fairy tale story. Islam did not spring forth from a man called Mohammed but was created centuries later and evolved over time to incorporate some traditions of the conquered Jews, Christians and Zoarastrians and give the Arab empire a religion that could stand in opposition to European Christianity -- the only force that continued to resist them. In short and my own words, Muhammad and Islam is an Arab King Arthur fable.

If you are interested in a more polemic work, rather than a thick book of History, read Robert Spencer. He has an unvarnished biography of Muhammad that he wrote to combat the hagiographies of Muhammad written by Islamic propagandists and then a work that attempts to cover some of the same ground as Holland's work, making the case that there was no Muhammad.

Anonymous Fed Up Aussie January 28, 2017 9:18 AM  

Where the hell is this Irish Derailment Syndrome coming from? I'm beginning to think it's a new form of hasbara or troll.

This "its not the jews but the irish" shilling has been happening all over the chans too. It seems too extensive to be the work of one loon.

Anonymous mark in orlando January 28, 2017 9:30 AM  

I thought it was a bit odd that the Mayor of London commented regularly(majorly anti-Trump of course) on the US Presidential campaign, turns out he is the Chairman of the Fabian Society, that may be much more relevant than the fact that he is Muslim.

Blogger VD January 28, 2017 9:31 AM  

This "its not the jews but the irish" shilling has been happening all over the chans too. It seems too extensive to be the work of one loon.

It appears (((certain parties))) are increasingly concerned about the fingerprints all over the 1965 US demographic debacle. Seriously, who EVER thought that was a good idea, or that it wouldn't come back to haunt them?

Anonymous Rocklea January 28, 2017 9:35 AM  

@2 Fed Up Aussie said:
"Who is the best historian for an overview of the entire history of the west's ongoing battle with islam over the last 1300 years? My public school neglected to teach any history between 465 AD and 1788 and I would like a good overview of the dark ages, middle ages, crusades etc"

Stefan Molyneux's The Truth about the Crusades on youtube is good or the podcast.
http://www.fdrpodcasts.com/#/3153/the-truth-about-the-crusades

Anonymous BBGKB January 28, 2017 9:38 AM  

And then suddenly there comes this tremendous axe swing of Muslim fundamentalism, and 9/11,

Moslems still feared white nations since Gen Blackjack Pershing, until leftist men online admitted to sitting to pee.

Suspended the U.S. Refugee Admissions Program for 120 days, prohibiting

Needs to increase to TRUMP's entire term and he should do with refugee crimes what he did with illegal alien crimes. Refugee Resettlement Watch probably only covers a fraction.

Anonymous PinochetsChopperPilot January 28, 2017 9:40 AM  

I traveled and stayed in Turkey 20-something years during a military detail and it was absolutely wonderful--the people were very kind, and open, the food was good (and cheap), they had beer, bars, music (this was Marmaris, granted). Everyone was basically secular and Ataturk was venerated as someone who brought them out of the dark ages.

Over the years I have heard and seen things going there on the news, that I am sure are shared by other travelers on this board, who've been to the Middle East. It breaks my heart because I always think back to how joyful the people seemed, and what a great experience it was to have our off-duty time there. Then I always figure, being red-pilled, hey, it was never created for my (or our) joy or entertainment...if they, or the Egyptians or whomever else, want to shut down/out their culture, history, and all that--that's their right.

The days of whites (visitors, academics, scientists) wondering the streets of Cairo or Istanbul or Damascus are over. Archaeology, science, all the things we did well with their elite class, all that's gone. They chose that.

Now I just want to keep them out of here.

Anonymous PolarBearBalls January 28, 2017 9:53 AM  

Servant of the Chief: I enjoy your posts. What do you think about the historical fictions like "The Vikings" and "The Last Kingdom?" As someone of Scots-Irish/Irish heritage, I've always been interested in the role of the Vikings and Normans (who were descended from Vikings also?) on what is today the UK.

Just from everything I've read and seen, are we not wrong when we here in the US go around calling everything "Anlgo-Saxon" or "Anglo" when really, the CULTURE that we know of from England (and Wales and Scotland) is basically NORMAN culture? My Y-DNA (from N. Ireland/Scotland, as proven by records) is genetically Viking. It would make sense the male line might be, while all other lines within may be from the local Britons/Celts of old.

Blogger Cecil Henry January 28, 2017 9:56 AM  


Is Contemporary Christianity a Suicide Cult?


https://occamsrazormag.wordpress.com/2017/01/28/is-contemporary-christianity-a-suicide-cult/


The West is a culture created by a specific people and it will be destroyed if that people is dispossessed. Europeans everywhere have the self-evident right to secure their homelands for themselves, without regard to the claims others make upon it.

How has Christianity come to be for the Tower of Babel: it is not Christianity.

Blogger Tom Verso January 28, 2017 9:56 AM  

Have you ever read Toynbee? He posits multi-state 'civilizations' as fundamental social units of historical analysis; e.g. today: the West, Islam and Orthodox christian, etc. Further, he discusses how co-temporous civilization interact (conflict) with one another.
I am writing a book "Toynbee: Social Scientific Historian"

Blogger Servant of the Chief January 28, 2017 9:56 AM  

@22 Eh, I better not contribute more to the derailment, since its pissing people off. Sorry guys.

Anonymous VFM #6306 January 28, 2017 10:02 AM  

I'm sure the next generation of Muslims will integrate with the West any day now...

Blogger plishman January 28, 2017 10:02 AM  

Great scholars both secular and religious, from St Thomas Aquinas to Sir Winston Churchill, have told us about the danger and true nature of Islam.

Only moderns think the rabbit in their own head wiser than centuries of warnings from minds whose teaching secured the future of their people - something self-evidently true, since all of the generations up to our own survived, prospered and grew.

I on the other hand do not consider myself qualified to debate the profound wisdom of the fathers of our civilization - so I don't

Blogger Mr.MantraMan January 28, 2017 10:11 AM  

I think I have seen and read enough about Islam to have an opinion at least half formed, but what would entertain me would be a long debate between Western feminists and Islamic scholars. And the most I want to hear from the usual conservative intellectual egos are questions that bring the two parties into disagreement.

Blogger pyrrhus January 28, 2017 10:13 AM  

It really depends, I think, on the proportion that decides to integrate. Who decides to say, okay we're in England now, we'll lead an ordinary English life, we won't wear black tents or veils or anything, we'll put ourselves through school and university. And that's fine. Those people will obviously get absorbed. But for every one of those, I don't know how many there are of the other side, who do not want to be absorbed, who want to go on carrying on with their Muslim ways of life. And this will lead to a greater and greater gulf in the population of the country.

No, it really doesn't matter, Lord Norwich....

Anonymous PinochetsChopperPilot January 28, 2017 10:21 AM  

I think the whole argument of claiming feminists-gasp, of ALL PEOPLE, should be the most opposed to (any form of) Islam, is essentially the same type of cliche as "Democrats are the real racists"

"Western Feminists" should not be given any credibility as any group to argue with anyone, nor should their collective, or individual opinions be sought on any topic. They are an intellectual black hole and their double standards and hypocrisy render them unimportant in any such debate. Let them burn with the rest of the defenders of Islam.

We need to elevate the argument way beyond them. Saving Western civilization won't happen because someone convinces Ashley Judd some Muslim somewhere wants to gang rape and murder her.

Trying to convince your otherwise "opponent" (feminism, black Christians, etc) that they should be on your side, or they should ALSO see the threat of any particular issue, group etc--is like the concept of negotiating desire.

Hannity is that type of cuck..."Yes, but they abort millions of black babies very year..." as if THAT would be the selling point to the pro-abortion crowd (who have no shame) or as if blacks even care about that themselves. The don't.

Blogger Johnny January 28, 2017 10:24 AM  

>>Where the hell is this Irish Derailment Syndrome coming from? I'm beginning to think it's a new form of hasbara or troll.

It is the new line of BS I guess. Dive off into talking about other immigrant groups. It is the old Melting Pot thing expanded into particulars.

Blogger Johnny January 28, 2017 10:27 AM  

>>My public school neglected to teach any history between 465 AD and 1788 and I would like a good overview of the dark ages, middle ages,

In yea olden days they biased education with religiously derived myth. Now they bias it with selective remembrance. Having looked into Islam, (you know, actually done it) I find it remarkable how ignorant our alleged to be well educated society is.

Until the Europeans reduced the level of slave taking in the nineteenth century, slavery and Islam were so tied at the hip that you can learn about the history of one by learning about the history of the other. One book that covers it is Slavery in the Arab World.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan January 28, 2017 10:30 AM  

Chopper man I don't care about saving feminists or muslims I want them to fight one another, don't confuse me for the average conservative intellectual egoist. I'm just tired of the same old scam that conservative intellectuals always pull, leftist scum pulls some stupid political theatre, conservative intellectual runs to the front tells us he or she knows what it really means and promises to basically participate gratis in stooge theatre.

I am not a conservative intellectual I am an asshole, a jerk and I am the devil, I am not here to play usual conservative stooge in the Left's Passion Play.

Blogger Johnny January 28, 2017 10:31 AM  

>>I traveled and stayed in Turkey 20-something years during a military detail and it was absolutely wonderful--the people were very kind, and open, the food was good (and cheap), they had beer, bars, music (this was Marmaris, granted). Everyone was basically secular and Ataturk was venerated as someone who brought them out of the dark ages.

Something that happens over and over again is that westerners go into a foreign country and deal with a select minority of the population, usually the well educated or those looking for tourist dollars. They then form opinions based on this subset of the population that are not actually true for the majority.

The thing is that in pre industrial societies most people are rural or small town and most commonly out of touch with the outside world. We are plainly picking up a resurgence of Islamic ideology, and I suspect it is a genuinely populist movement. It's the hinterland people reasserting themselves.

Anonymous Burckhardt January 28, 2017 10:35 AM  

A bit too cuckish for my tastes ("will be absorbed" etc.), but I get the idea of tolerating the Alt Lite and other critics of the Zeitgeist who aren't yet on board (and will probably never be) with cold hard science regarding human biodiversity.

@2: Check out Emmett Scott's "Muhammed and Charlemagne". Also, Rodney Stark's classic "God's Battalions" is a nice read. Last not least, there is the work of Sylvain Gouguenheim, a professor for Medieval studies who wrote the work "Aristote au Mont-Saint-Michel. Les racines grecques de l'Europe chrétienne".

Blogger Aeoli Pera January 28, 2017 10:47 AM  

WerePuppy is the coolest guy around.

Anonymous CC January 28, 2017 11:00 AM  

One thing I noticed when I was in Muslim countries was this underlying hatred and mockery I sensed from a lot of the locals. I didn't get it, I thought it was because of a resentment of Western success or something like that, but I get it now. It's because it's burned into them from a very young age. I don't want to be around these people so it's great that Trump is basically banning them from immigrating to the US. I look forward to that being replicated in Europe.

I was in Amsterdam with my friends a year and a half ago and I was sitting with my friend outside a café. That city is crawling with Muslims. Anyway there were these Islamic kids sitting in a car parked on the road as their parents were shopping. They were making faces and laughing and it seemed harmless enough. I said to my friend: "they're laughing at us you know"
"no way man, you're being paranoid"
"no they are, it's what they do, I remember it from before when I was in Muslim countries"
My friend understands Islam and knows what it teaches but I still wanted to show him how much a large number of them hate us. Why should we give so much to people who will hate us no matter what we do?

Anonymous VFM #6306 January 28, 2017 11:03 AM  

Lord Norwich was being overly polite. He clearly anticipates that integration wasn't coming and was in fact increasingly unlikely.

Black box tents are so dehumanized that I don't think a Westerner could be faulted for mistaking them for a sack of garbage.

Blogger HanSolo January 28, 2017 11:55 AM  

The Saudis are funding madrassas all over the world. This helps spread fundamentalist Islam (Wahhabism) and creates more and more Western hating muslims. The more extreme followers turn into terrorists. Saudi Arabia needs to be seen as the cultural enemy they are and pressured into not funding Wahhabism anymore. Otherwise they just keep on creating more and more haters of the West.

Blogger JWM in SD January 28, 2017 12:06 PM  

http://www.realcrusadeshistory.com/

Blogger JWM in SD January 28, 2017 12:15 PM  

Anyway there were these Islamic kids sitting in a car parked on the road as their parents were shopping. They were making faces and laughing and it seemed harmless enough. I said to my friend: "they're laughing at us you know"

If I start seeing that shit here in the US (TX), things are going to get real interesting, real quick...

Blogger Dave January 28, 2017 12:30 PM  

BBGKB wrote:
Suspended the U.S. Refugee Admissions Program for 120 days, prohibiting

Needs to increase to TRUMP's entire term and he should do with refugee crimes what he did with illegal alien crimes. Refugee Resettlement Watch probably only covers a fraction.


CNN immediately started showing clips of an eleven-year Syrian refugee girl and her family. They interviewed the girl who had just learned to speak english and told us she is now more American than most Americans. How could anyone be so cruel and heartless to deny families like this their right to American citizenship?

Would you not expect the God-Emperor to anticipate and plan for a long term strategy to counteract the media's hysterical response. Start with 120 days, let the media run all the tearjerker stories nonstop and people will soon tune them out from sympathy-fatigue. Then hit them again with another 120 days or 240 days.


Blogger KSC January 28, 2017 12:35 PM  

Slightly OT: I admit I was surprised to read you confess that much admiration for the Summa, since I assume by many of your past writings that you would not subscribe to much or all of qq. 1-43 in the prima pars, which is foundational.

Anonymous smh January 28, 2017 12:36 PM  

I'm a little confused about Turkey. I understand the country turned secular years ago, and only recently has decided to veer back towards fundamentalism. But I am not so sure they will ever be able to shake off the influence of Western culture. For example, while cruising YouTube the other day, I noticed home page "highlights" of Turkish pop (music). Intrigued, I clicked on a couple and found this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcGPedcPsOs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g3-Ba0NA5E

Though you can see elements of Turkish/Mid East influence in these, they are utterly un-islamic and full of Western pop culture. These two singers would be burka'd or stoned to death in a true islamic society for acting the way they do. Notice they have 200 million and 100 million views respectively, likely very few from North America, so even discounting the European viewers, that leaves a LOT of Turkish and Middle Eastern young people watching and enjoying what amounts to Western Pop. To add to it, these aren't the only videos of this specific genre; there are dozens more.

So while Erdogan and other fundamentalists may try to tamp down on this Western-influenced culture, and the general population may turn towards islamicism, they will not be able to stamp out Western influence, they will only drive it underground.

Blogger HanSolo January 28, 2017 1:10 PM  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5PK-SK0h9o

During the 90s, in a SOTU speech, Bill Clinton talks about the need to stop illegal immigration and eliminate them from taking jobs from Americans, given a standing ovation. Now anyone saying the same things is called a racist.

Blogger stevev January 28, 2017 1:36 PM  

JIM in SD: You're being inattentive. I live in Austin and I've seen it happen. I've seen burka clad women pull their kids close to them as we meet on the street, and see the look of age-atypical fear on their faces.

Blogger tublecane January 28, 2017 2:36 PM  

I have his book on Venice. As much of a page-turner as that sort of thing can be.

Blogger DonReynolds January 28, 2017 3:11 PM  

We need not wonder how mass immigration works or what might be the end result. We have a considerable amount of history to refer to already.
Ask yourself, when Europeans came to North America....which was little more than a trickle for centuries....which culture was changed forever?
Ok....maybe that was a hard one.
Here is an easy one. When Britain was invaded by the Germanic tribes.....Angles, Jutes, Saxons....where did the native Britons go?
Answer: Wales. In fact, they are called Welsh by the invaders. That is not what they call themselves. Welsh is the Saxon (German) term for "foreigner".

Blogger Snidely Whiplash January 28, 2017 3:27 PM  

smh wrote:So while Erdogan and other fundamentalists may try to tamp down on this Western-influenced culture, and the general population may turn towards islamicism, they will not be able to stamp out Western influence, they will only drive it underground.
They're happy with that. They like being puritanical assholes in public and degenerates in private. The same way they hate homosexuality but bugger little boys. The same way they're happy that most of the men in Tehran get falling-down drunk every night, so long as they publicly embrace Islamic sobriety. The same way they will rape their own teenaged daughters for the crime of going out in public.
Never ever assume that Muslims actually believe any of it. Many do. Many simply go through the motions

Blogger Nate73 January 28, 2017 4:22 PM  

What's significant about the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica? I actually have a set of the 1950 EB and probably gonna sell it.

Blogger Were-Puppy January 28, 2017 4:35 PM  

When I was putting that part into text, I was thinking "This guy might get an SJW swarm if this is put on the internet!" :P

Blogger Were-Puppy January 28, 2017 4:37 PM  

@13 the management
P.S. Just a reminder - the original post is about ISLAM. You know, MUSLIMS. From THIRD WORLD places with DESERTS and CAMELS and WOMEN IN BLACK TENTS, without even the slightest relation to Ireland, the Irish, Celts, Romano-British, Guinness, Lucky Charms, river dancing, or St. Patrick.
---

It was about islam and London and immigration. Since practically all of the west is being flooded with these rags, everybody will note the same thing as the historian did sooner or later.

Blogger Were-Puppy January 28, 2017 4:53 PM  

@41 Dave
Start with 120 days, let the media run all the tearjerker stories nonstop and people will soon tune them out from sympathy-fatigue.
---

I'm already there. I lasted about two days.

Lefties are out crying "You can't stop people from coming here! This is a free country!"

"You can't rip families apart!"

Cucks are going on about "We're a nation of immigrants".

Almost every one of these lefties is an anchor baby. Or even a first gen immigrant.

The cucks are almost always jewish or the "my grandpa was from somewhere" types.

Did none of these clowns ever see the old schoolhouse rock about the preamble?

Anonymous Discard January 28, 2017 4:56 PM  

43. smh: Those videos are not un-Islamic. Those blond women are to be the swarthymen's reward for killing the West.

Anonymous Discard January 28, 2017 5:02 PM  

John Julius Norwich. Familiar name, where'd I see that? Ah, he wrote a book about Sicily that I'd been considering. OK, VD, I'll buy it, when it come out in trade paperback. Thanks for the tip.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash January 28, 2017 5:15 PM  

Nate73 wrote:What's significant about the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica? I actually have a set of the 1950 EB and probably gonna sell it.
Jacobs continued, "I think Hans Koning of the New Yorker nailed the appeal 30 years ago. He said it was the last great work of the age of reason, the final instance when all human knowledge could be presented with a single point of view. Four years later, the confidence and optimism that had produced the 11th would be, as he puts it, 'a casualty in the slaughter at Ypres and the Argonne.'"
It is literally the only encyclopedia you could read for the quality of the writing.
The entire text is out of copyright and available online:
https://archive.org/stream/encyclopediabrit26ed11arch

Blogger Dave January 28, 2017 5:26 PM  

The entire text is out of copyright and available online:

To expand on that see:
https://infogalactic.com/info/Encyclopædia_Britannica_Eleventh_Edition

Anonymous Icicle January 28, 2017 7:00 PM  

Almost every one of these lefties is an anchor baby. Or even a first gen immigrant.

The cucks are almost always jewish or the "my grandpa was from somewhere" types.


You don't say...

Blogger jandolin January 28, 2017 10:22 PM  

Bernard Lewis is a Zionist. His Zionism affects his interpretation of the Muslim world. It is astonishing that after the horrific Iraq war disaster, in which Bernard Lewis was a key player, people have not figured out that it is best to rely on writers, who are genuine scholars, who do not have dog in the Mideast fight.

Blogger Miss Carnivorous January 29, 2017 12:34 AM  

I live in a small suburb in the SF Bay Area. During the last Muslim Holiday of Eid al Adha, dozens of full burka clad ladies flooded our many shoreline parks. Totally bizarre! What a weird visual display it was. Though I am intellectually curious and interested in other cultures, I believe that burka clad women should remain a subculture, like the Amish and Orthodox Jews. I have noticed a trend among young Muslim women wherein their mothers do not wear hijabs but they do. The hijab is a pure political statement and symbol of opposition to mainstream American culture.

OpenID anonymos-coward January 29, 2017 3:15 AM  

They're happy with that. They like being puritanical assholes in public and degenerates in private. The same way they hate homosexuality but bugger little boys. The same way they're happy that most of the men in Tehran get falling-down drunk every night, so long as they publicly embrace Islamic sobriety. The same way they will rape their own teenaged daughters for the crime of going out in public.
Never ever assume that Muslims actually believe any of it. Many do. Many simply go through the motions


You misunderstand Islam greatly. Islam is not exotic desert Calvinism and Allah is not the Christian God.

The Islamic Allah is an amoral force that is the source of all good and all evil. Moreover, Muslims aren't supposed to believe in free will. Everything a person does, be it good or evil, is just Allah pulling the strings like a puppeteer.

Orthodox Muslims aren't supposed to pray, since praying is pointless in Islam; there can be no dialogue with Allah, no more than you can hold a conversation with the force of gravity. What we confuse as 'Islamic prayer' are meaningless (and humiliating) rituals meant to highlight how man is the completely subject to the will of Allah.

TL;DR -- Muslims don't believe in 'morality' or 'ethics' the way Christians do. It's meaningless to accuse them of hypocrisy as the core of Islam is blind obedience to the humiliating precepts of Sharia. Buggering little boys or raping teenage daughters probably doesn't contradict Sharia.

Anonymous Evolyn January 29, 2017 9:46 PM  

Maybe it's time to ask what people like about the culture of Islam. I make that out to be the following (not a complete list, but it's a start):

1) men are men and women are women.

2) there is a settled order in things. (see 1)

3) women do not walk about in their underwear and pose as skanks. Older/fat ladies are not compelled to wear teenie clothes that show every flaw. Hijabs are cheaper and more flexible than hairdresser's efforts (about 40% of women just have naff hair that looks bad, no matter how much money and effort is thrown at it. Hijabs solve that problem in a dignified way.)

4) religion simplifies a lot of complexity in life, you don't have to re-invent the wheel all the time.

5) despite best efforts of TPTB, their families are functional (for some values thereof) and, those people manage to procreate, all under the same basic conditions that 'our side' has.

There is more, but, rather than go on about what we despise, figuring out why people like it and why it's so successful, is useful. I think the problem is partially that our cultural counter offering is wanting and we need to do better if we're going to impress people into joining us.

We are not winning the 'free market of ideas' here, why not?

Blogger Patriotic Canadian January 30, 2017 12:25 PM  

Bill Warner has a pretty good youtube presentation.

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