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Saturday, January 14, 2017

Play fair or there will be no game

Mike Cernovich lays down a reasonable rule for the media:
You received this because you sent in a media inquiry. I generally don’t respond to media for a number of reasons. One is that I get a lot of them. Two is that traditional media doesn’t move the needle for me or the movement as well as social media does. Three is that most of you people won’t even describe me accurately.

If you do not agree to refer to me as an author and filmmaker, then I am not going to talk to you.

I’m an author and documentary filmmaker. Among other people, I interviewed Alan Dershowitz in his home for the feature-length documentary, Silenced. Scott Adams, Dave Rubin, Milo, and many others are in Silenced.

My first book, Gorilla Mindset, has over 735 reviews after 18 months. Maybe you don’t like the subject matter because you do not want to improve your own life, whatever. My second book, on Trump’s rise, already has over 200 reviews and has sold more copies than 99% of books released in 2016.

I am neither “alt-right” nor a men’s rights activist.

Mike Cernovich, author and filmmaker….If you lack the basic journalistic integrity to refer to me as who I am, then there’s nothing to talk about.
This is a good strategy for dealing with the media, as far too few reporters have the basic journalistic integrity to bother getting their facts straight.

And it's important to force them to do so, because they are the sort of people who won't hesitate to claim that Christianity, the Alt-Right, and White Nationalism are all one and the same thing.
Author and prolific Tweeter Joyce Carol Oates openly pondered the state of Christianity in America in a post to her Twitter account Thursday afternoon — and believes Christianity is now indistinguishable from white nationalism in many parts of America.
Thus demonstrating that a dedication to social justice and mental retardation are even less distinguishable.

82 Comments:

Blogger Bard January 14, 2017 4:15 PM  

Interesting. Eliminate their pre conceived labels, force them to use yours, and spread the image that accurately portrays you. They will be reluctant to do it. Steers the narrative power.

Blogger Ghost of Nathan Bedford Forrest January 14, 2017 4:16 PM  

It's amazing how 4GW is changing the game for the MSM. Fight on Mike! Make them approach you by set fair rules. Oh, on a side note, perhaps Ms. Oates could read some actual history (I know it is a stretch) and understand that Christianity = Western Civilization.

Blogger Cecil Henry January 14, 2017 4:23 PM  

These SJW parasites are so transparent.

Christianity and White nationalism are not the same, but nor are they incompatible.

And that reality is what they don't like.

Anonymous Soga January 14, 2017 4:24 PM  

I think a lot of Christians, American ones even, would be surprised to find that they're now white nationalists. Let's not interrupt our enemy while they're making a mistake.

Blogger Ezekiel January 14, 2017 4:31 PM  

"and believes Christianity is now indistinguishable from white nationalism in many parts of America."

Which parts? If I knew of a place where that was true, I might consider moving there.

Blogger JWM in SD January 14, 2017 4:35 PM  

Christianity = White Nationalism? They so badly want to use the KKK / burning crosses meme. I guarantee that's what image is running through her SJW mind.

Blogger tublecane January 14, 2017 4:37 PM  

That's a Not Even Wrong-type belief from Joyce Carol Oates, which she probably doesn't believe anyway. "Many parts of America" could be one guy's house in Texas and a basement in Philadelphia. Who knows?

They maintain the knowledge that orthodox religion is one dangerous potential (I stress potential, because organized religion has done a piss-poor job resisting them lately) holdout to the leftist juggernaut. They also think of everyone who opposes them as a white nationalist, i.e. nazi, because that's easy. So why not combine the two?

Blogger pyrrhus January 14, 2017 4:55 PM  

@8 Just another category error by a lazy, elderly SJW...she might even believe it.

Blogger pyrrhus January 14, 2017 4:56 PM  

@5 Yes, would that it were so!

Blogger SteelPalm January 14, 2017 4:57 PM  

Joyce Carol Oates is legitimately mentally retarded.

1. There was a photo from the set of "Jurassic Park" with Steven Spielberg sitting next to a massive, downed triceratops behind him.

Oates thought this was cruel, barbaric, and wondered if there were conservation laws to jail Spielberg for it.

2. Wondered if there was a nice side to ISIS we're not told about;

Joyce Carol Oates ✔ @JoyceCarolOates

"All we hear of ISIS is puritanical & punitive; is there nothing celebratory & joyous? Or is query naive?"

11:28 AM - 22 Nov 2015

3. She wonders why people don't simply leave North Korea if they dislike it;

Joyce Carol Oates ✔ @JoyceCarolOates

"We do wonder why, how, anyone would choose to live w/out interludes of communal, social happiness as in totalitarian states like North Korea"

8:18 AM - 25 Nov 2015

Incidentally, Oates is a former Catholic turned atheist. A clear sign that turning away from Christianity is often a sign of mental disease, not enlightenment. (And I write this as a secular individual)

Blogger Nick S January 14, 2017 5:01 PM  

I think a lot of Christians, American ones even, would be surprised to find that they're now white nationalists.

I'm neither surprised nor upset that they would categorize me, a white Christian, as a white nationalist. I am. My problem is with their naïve disparaging definition of white nationalism.

Anonymous Stormfag is still better than Jewish January 14, 2017 5:02 PM  

Someone needs to tell Oates that Democrats are the Real Racists.

Anonymous karsten January 14, 2017 5:09 PM  

"and believes Christianity is now indistinguishable from white nationalism in many parts of America."

If that were the case, then Christianity might once again be worth something.

Alas, the truth is the opposite, and Christianity/Churchianity is now an all-too-potent cucking force.

Blogger L. Beau January 14, 2017 5:10 PM  

@12 - Some "cuckservative", you mean.

Blogger praetorian January 14, 2017 5:17 PM  

Joyce Carol Oates

Praise Kek, she won't use Trumps name: she uses T***p instead.

Truly, his name is a killing word.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash January 14, 2017 5:21 PM  

... believes Christianity is now indistinguishable from white nationalism in many parts of America.
Well, since I'm already irredeemably racist due to my blue-white Anglo-Irish skin tone, and like any sincere Christian I am a patriot, by their definitions I am a White Nationalist.

I wonder if Lefties love Islam because it's inherently globalist?

Blogger praetorian January 14, 2017 5:23 PM  

Christianity and White nationalism are not the same

I see no advantage to correcting the left on this one, particularly as the inauguration week festivities kick off.

Anonymous Faceless January 14, 2017 5:24 PM  

They would not accept either rabid antichrist or America-hating globalist. Mr. Cernovich is correct to demand that they call him by his correct professional title or don't call him at all.

Blogger Wanderer January 14, 2017 5:27 PM  

Christianity = white nationalism? Go hang around actual white nationalists like I have and they'll tell you how much they despise Christianity. Actual white nationalists want some form of neopagan wiccan faggotry or atheism. They would even take Islam (without the brown people) over Christianity in some cases. Go look up Nietzsche's quotes on Islam. They're indistinguishable from a modern cuckish HuffPost article.

Blogger praetorian January 14, 2017 5:30 PM  

Actual white nationalists want some form of neopagan wiccan faggotry or atheism.

White nationalism == Christianity.

As, Judeo-Christ said: let he who is without pigment into your country, statistically speaking.

Blogger Tatooine Sharpshooters' Club January 14, 2017 5:36 PM  

Journalists won't even refer to Oates as "urine-reeking multiple cat owner". Have they not a single shred of integrity?

Anonymous Silly but True January 14, 2017 5:51 PM  

The end goal is what it has always been for the amoral, immoral, and Satanists: with its absolutist moral direction, particularly against homosexuality, Christian theology must be declared hatespeech, and the Bible banned as an instrument of hatecrime.

Anonymous llsepher January 14, 2017 5:54 PM  

Yea, that's a winning strategy:

Libs: "lets pin the Alt-Right and Christianity into a corner together."

All Christians slowly ally with the Alt-Right as Alt-Right theology is born and the world succumbs to 1000 years of unchecked Right-wing theocratic rule under the tutelage of the Supreme Dark Lord.

Blogger Dave January 14, 2017 5:58 PM  

Mr. Cernovich, author and documentary filmmaker, just tweeted out that the Clinton Global Initiative is shutting down, laying off 22 employees. https://t.co/64mo98wDK5

Anonymous Mark Auld January 14, 2017 6:11 PM  

The truth is that the lefties truly are the fascists.by the way,why always nazis?why never Stalinist or maoist?

Anonymous Judeo-Christ January 14, 2017 6:18 PM  

Wherever twenty or thirty thousand are gathered in My name, with a White fraction less than or equal to the demographic fraction in either the local region or the country (whichever is lower), there I am with them.

Blogger Nick S January 14, 2017 6:33 PM  

+1

Blogger Dave January 14, 2017 6:34 PM  

@Judeo-Christ but you know math is hard, right? b) are you counting white Hispanics? Thirdly, will you bring merchandise for sale?

Blogger Thucydides January 14, 2017 6:36 PM  

@25

Calling Nazis and Fascists "Right Wing" is an artifact of Soviet propaganda dating back to the 1930's, when Stalin was concerned that "National Socialism" was becoming more attractive than "International Socialism". American and European communists ran with this until the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was signed, then Nazi Germany was best buds and being against Nazi Germany was "badthink"...until 1941, that is.....

While the actual tactics of the modern Left are generally more Maoist than Leninist or even Trotskyite, you would actually have to be educated in the actual history of Marxism and communism to be able to make the distinctions, while the Lefties of course want you stuck in an 80 year old paradigm where they control the narrative and can send mobs of Brownshirts your way without even a tiny glimmer of irony.

Anonymous Mark Auld January 14, 2017 7:10 PM  

Irony indeed!

Blogger Phillip George January 14, 2017 7:34 PM  

Vox, this is a must watch interview on how paid trolls are black budget wrecking balls for all ALT.
It is crisp, clear, concise.
http://beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2017/01/well-known-pastor-gets-three-alarming-visits-from-nsa-with-grave-ramifications-video-2487601.html

Personally I'm still running with the theory that God Himself is about to smash everything, but if I'm wrong on timing this will still help you "man" the walls of your growing empire

Blogger bob kek mando ( Death To The Boor-geois, Keks To The Lol-etariat ) January 14, 2017 7:36 PM  

10. SteelPalm January 14, 2017 4:57 PM
Incidentally, Oates is a former Catholic turned atheist.



incidentally, with a Jewish grandmother.

although, given that she was born in 38, senility and dementia probably has more to do with her current confusion than anything else.

seriously, she "can't figure out" why people stay in North Korea? after all those decades of watching people jump the wall from East Germany into Berlin?


24. Dave January 14, 2017 5:58 PM
Mr. Cernovich, author and documentary filmmaker, just tweeted out that the Clinton Global Initiative is shutting down, laying off 22 employees.



the Clinton charity front scam is shutting down? when they clear tens of millions a year in donations?

why, whatever could be the problem?

i would note that the loss of jobs is probably the beginning of the Trump depression ... but CGI isn't actually a business and doesn't actually produce anything of value.

and Donald J. Trump STILL isn't president yet. is there anything the God Emperor can't do?



25. Mark Auld January 14, 2017 6:11 PM
by the way,why always nazis?why never Stalinist or maoist?



because the media is owned by the Marxists and progressives and will not permit the REAL mass murdering lunatics of the 20th century to take any heat.

because that's too close to the Truth, that the Communist Manifesto calls for the genocide of the Bourgeois ( as well as the Aristocracy ).

Blogger Benjamin Kraft January 14, 2017 7:37 PM  

@10. I've talked to people who scored in the single digit percentiles on the ASVAB - repeatedly.

Not a single one of them struck me as being as stupid as that, but then again I suppose I still give her the benefit of the doubt by (errantly) assuming that those quotes of hers were cherry picked from among a lot of "better" ones.

Actually most of those single digit scorers seemed to use correct spelling and fairly good grammar/punctuation when writing too. Do I come from a utopia-zone or something?

Anonymous David the Minion January 14, 2017 7:39 PM  

In any case of a proposed interview by a member of the media, tell them to talk to your agent, and that you demand total creative control over the editing of the film.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan January 14, 2017 7:43 PM  

Judeo-Christ has a band

Blogger Benjamin Kraft January 14, 2017 7:43 PM  

@12. It's already being done, the neocucks are all over it.

@26. Oh snap, the man has spoken.

Blogger bob kek mando ( Death To The Boor-geois, Keks To The Lol-etariat ) January 14, 2017 7:59 PM  

34. David the Minion January 14, 2017 7:39 PM
and that you demand total creative control over the editing of the film.



no, you demand that you will make YOUR OWN independently created copy of the interview, which will never leave your control.

they can edit any damn thing they want. then, after they make their Fake News version of the interview, you post the raw video to Youtube.

Anonymous Casey January 14, 2017 8:00 PM  

Cernovich refers "the movement", and then later denies that's he's a member of the Alt-Right.

I have no problem with those who promote their own "brand" and I have no problem with those who promote an ideology. But those who try to do both are going to have to learn that they can't serve two masters. One of the two will eventually take precedent.

If Cernovich is going to use the Alt-Right and Christianity to promote his "brand", he needs to own up.

I won't be holding my breath until he does so.

Blogger Dave January 14, 2017 8:12 PM  

(((Cernovich))) using Christianity? Do pray tell.

Anonymous Judeo-Christ January 14, 2017 8:47 PM  

Cernovich and Milo are Christian.

Stormfags like David Duke only pretend to be.

Blogger Benjamin Kraft January 14, 2017 9:03 PM  

(((Dave))) being super accurate? Here, let me match your accuracy.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents January 14, 2017 10:00 PM  

Joyce Carol Oates is still alive? I'm astounded.

Blogger SteelPalm January 14, 2017 10:04 PM  

It's very amusing that Cernovich, a small-town Illinois Christian who doesn't look even remotely Jewish, successfully trolled a bunch of idiots into (legitimately) thinking he is part of the tribe.

Blogger SteelPalm January 14, 2017 10:06 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger SteelPalm January 14, 2017 10:08 PM  

@42 For all we know, she might have died a few yeas ago and this is her re-animated corpse Tweeting. I mean, have you seen her lately?

She is a more convincing zombie than what one sees on television;

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/joyce80003263_94811c.jpg

Anonymous Gen. Kong January 14, 2017 10:28 PM  

Wanderer wrote:
Christianity = white nationalism? Go hang around actual white nationalists like I have and they'll tell you how much they despise Christianity. Actual white nationalists want some form of neopagan wiccan faggotry or atheism. They would even take Islam (without the brown people) over Christianity in some cases. Go look up Nietzsche's quotes on Islam. They're indistinguishable from a modern cuckish HuffPost article.


That's something of a mis-characterization but it does catch the flavor of many WN sites (esp. the comments). Problem is, where are there any Christians left who don't bow to the Judeo-Christ or the Golden Dindu? This is about the only place you find any, apart from maybe Cambria Will Not Yield and a couple of other places. Many Christians refuse to face the fact that their churches are largely converged. Even with Ann 'Crazy-Eyes' Barnhardt, you have this bizarro tendency towards worshipping the Judeo-Christ or the Golden Dindu. She torched a Koran with strips of bacon and shouted at the simpering moron Miss Lindsay Graham with fury. Would she do the same to the even viler Talmud? - which compares to the Koran somewhat like Alistair Crowley compares to Richard Dawkins' screed. I rather doubt it, because (even though she considers Hi-Fellatin' Franny an anti-pope), it might offend the Judeo-Christ. In EUSSR, are there any Christians (real ones) around except maybe in Poland and in some of the Eastern parts? In Scotland they just conducted a service in a major church quoting the Koran in the liturgy. What's next? - an order from Pedesta's Pizza-Parlor? Might as well convert St. Peters to a mosque now with rainbow minarets - with (((Soros))) employees running the show.

This is one of the reasons folks like Oates are so utterly insane. They are completely detached from any semblance of reality. They should be flocking to the churches now - since they own all but a few. Yet here they are acting as if the pews are lined with the Waffen SS.

Anonymous perfidious Jew January 14, 2017 10:31 PM  

Cernovich is a born again goyim

Blogger JohnR219 January 14, 2017 11:01 PM  

OT:Zoe Quinn comes out as trans...GG still screwing with people..

Blogger praetorian January 14, 2017 11:04 PM  

Yet here they are acting as if the pews are lined with the Waffen SS.

The pews *are* lined with Waffen SS.

Actual footage of Christians at worship.

Remember: Christians are identical to White Nationalists. The left, me and Judeo-Christ say so.

Blogger Sillon Bono January 14, 2017 11:04 PM  

The expression "The movie in their heads" has never been so truer.

Blogger LES January 14, 2017 11:04 PM  

I'd like to see a Venn diagram of the alt-right, alt-lite, white nationalist, Christian and pro-Western civilization groups.
Did I leave any out?

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents January 14, 2017 11:24 PM  

@48
OT:Zoe Quinn comes out as trans...GG still screwing with people..,

Link? Pointer?

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable January 14, 2017 11:36 PM  

Judeo-Christ has a band

I hope he (He) has a whole worship team.

Anonymous MAGA Matt January 14, 2017 11:56 PM  

Praise God! I had no idea that Cernovich accepted Christ.

SteelPalm: Can you please post a link to Mike's testimony?

Blogger bob kek mando ( Death To The Boor-geois, Keks To The Lol-etariat ) January 15, 2017 12:04 AM  

if you were following the Chuck Tingle twitter feed ( and really, all the cool kids do ), you'd already know.

https://thezoequinn.tumblr.com/post/155785701663/a-gender

Blogger bob kek mando ( Death To The Boor-geois, Keks To The Lol-etariat ) January 15, 2017 12:06 AM  

basically 5000 words of "I, I, I" and "me, me, me" while claiming to regularly have "hissy fits".

how she thinks she's going to pass, psychologically, as a man i have no idea.

Blogger Dave January 15, 2017 12:08 AM  

Judeo-Christ has a band

Please don't be a cheesy hair metal band.
Please don't be a cheesy hair metal band.
Please don't be a cheesy hair metal band.


Anonymous Judeo-Christ January 15, 2017 12:17 AM  

5343 Kinds of Deplorable wrote:I hope he (He) has a whole worship team.

Ask and ye shall receive.

Blogger JohnR219 January 15, 2017 12:43 AM  

@52...theothermccain.com

Blogger JohnR219 January 15, 2017 12:44 AM  

@52...sorry...ralphretort.com

Blogger Aeoli Pera January 15, 2017 1:11 AM  

Message to the Alt-White:

Author and prolific Tweeter Joyce Carol Oates openly pondered the state of Christianity in America in a post to her Twitter account Thursday afternoon — and believes Christianity is now indistinguishable from white nationalism in many parts of America.

This is what it is. Adapt or die, that's a fundamental law of the universe.

Blogger Feather Blade January 15, 2017 1:23 AM  

Of course the leftists want to convince everyone that all Christians are white supremacists.

If they can convince everyone with skin darker than a paper bag that Christians are waiting to kill them if they show up at Church, they will never hear the Gospel and will die damned.

Anonymous Eric the Red January 15, 2017 1:29 AM  

What is necessary is a revival of Christianity which teaches:

1)Christ did not advocate equality, that equality is a lie, and that the pursuit of equality is evil;
2) Christ did not stipulate endless forgiveness, that militancy and use of the sword is required when the church is under attack.

I've investigated this, but so far it's analogous to pushing for negative rights in the Constitution. Without Jesus' direct testimony, logically and emotionally it's a tough sell.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents January 15, 2017 1:30 AM  

@55

Okaaaay. Should be interesting to see what effects T injections have.

But the real question is, will she still trade something like sex for positive game reviews?

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros January 15, 2017 1:33 AM  

Feather Blade wrote:If they can convince everyone with skin darker than a paper bag that Christians are waiting to kill them if they show up at Church, they will never hear the Gospel and will die damned.

I don't expect that nonwhites will stay away from nonwhite churches because of this. It might have a divide and conquer effect of segregating Christianity if they push it hard enough, but I think it's really just meant as revenge against white evangelicals for supporting Trump. All it means is "Cuck harder! Or I shall call you a Nazi again!"

Blogger Snidely Whiplash January 15, 2017 1:33 AM  

I read Zoe's plaintive plea thay she's "super special, guize and don't judge me cause I'm sufferin here" missive. What a load of psychobabblical garbage.
She's not a man, and not a woman. She's a super special genderfluud snowflake. Her gender changes on a daily basis and if you criticize her it's because you're a big meanie picking on a grrrrrl.

In other words, she's emotionally a 12 year old girl frightened by her own tits and pubic hair.

What a pathetic loser.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash January 15, 2017 1:35 AM  

But the real question is, will she still trade something like sex for positive game reviews?
Does a dog return to its vomit?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash January 15, 2017 1:46 AM  

And what would Saturday night be without Bosefus getting shitfaced and posting youtube links to Boomersongs?

Anonymous Eric the Red January 15, 2017 1:57 AM  

Cernovich can try to extract any promises he wants.

The lügenpresse will simply lie and then publish anything it wants.

Anonymous JAMES January 15, 2017 3:23 AM  

Any thoughts on Mike Enoch from TRS getting doxxed?

Anonymous Jack Amok January 15, 2017 3:34 AM  

Zoe Quinn comes out as trans.

Nobody's been paying attention to her lately, I guess.

Blogger tim January 15, 2017 5:25 AM  

Play fair? Fuck the cunts. Worthless whores. These bitches are worthy of getting tanked. Gurl power, fuck you cunts, take you out

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable January 15, 2017 5:26 AM  

Eric the Red wrote:I've investigated this, but so far it's analogous to pushing for negative rights in the Constitution. Without Jesus' direct testimony, logically and emotionally it's a tough sell.

Just going off of memory, lawyers are like whitewashed tombs -- pretty outside, dead inside -- and bankers should be literally whipped. A muscular Christianity is both historical and biblical.

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable January 15, 2017 5:40 AM  

LES wrote:I'd like to see a Venn diagram of the alt-right, alt-lite, white nationalist, Christian and pro-Western civilization groups.

Did I leave any out?


Yes. A useful Venn diagram would include outgroups such as utopians, nihilists and LARPers.

Blogger Rusty Fife January 15, 2017 8:54 AM  

SciVo de Plorable wrote:LES wrote:I'd like to see a Venn diagram of the alt-right, alt-lite, white nationalist, Christian and pro-Western civilization groups.

Did I leave any out?


Yes. A useful Venn diagram would include outgroups such as utopians, nihilists and LARPers.


Wouldn't it just be one circle: indide labeled "good-think" and outside labelled "evil WN chiristian cis-normative mouth breathing homophobes".

Blogger Pteronarcyd January 15, 2017 1:46 PM  

Cernovich is clearly free to establish appropriate boundaries for his interactions with the media. I assume he is getting requests from the media so they can get reaction from an influential member of the Alt Right. Therefore, he may, as a man of the West, want to reconsider his boundaries. His viewpoint serves the Alt Right movement infinitely better than the viewpoint of someone from the Alt Reich's Hitler-Jugend.

Blogger 1337kestrel January 15, 2017 3:01 PM  

@Les

https://twitter.com/1337kestrel/status/814671361373274112

This is a *rough* draft.

Blogger Unknown January 15, 2017 4:56 PM  

they are the sort of people who won't hesitate to claim that Christianity, the Alt-Right, and White Nationalism are all one and the same thing.

No doubt facilitated by strategic obfuscation by the Alt-Right through political pretzelling or whack-a-mole 'truth'-telling or glaring ommission when it garners more attention and generates more revenue. Nothing new here. This is the war propheteers milieu. The main difference between gorilla man and and the puffy ho in the OP is frame and marketing technique.

Blogger Sagramore January 15, 2017 5:40 PM  

@10 What JCO needs is a ride on a LITERARY FRIGATE.



Blogger Unknown January 15, 2017 6:02 PM  

OT: bug report

Between 1337kestral and Sagramore there is a post by unknown that disappears as soon as the page fishishes loading.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash January 15, 2017 9:29 PM  

Between 1337kestral and Sagramore there is a post by unknown that disappears as soon as the page fishishes loading.

That is blogger's phuqued up comments system. Rather than deleting deleted posts, it runs a java scriptlet that hides them. If your bandwidth is low enough you can stop the load and read the comment. Typically it's not worth the effort.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd January 15, 2017 11:35 PM  

Thanks, Snidely. Not worth the effort, but my bandwidth is definitely low enough to see them, and read them.

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