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Friday, February 10, 2017

Magic Dirt Fail: Byzantine edition

More historical lessons courtesy of the great historian Charles Oman:
The chief modifications which must be marked in the character of the empire between 320 and 620 depend on two processes of gradual change which were going on throughout the three centuries. The first was the gradual de-Romanization (if we may coin the uncouth word) alike of the governing classes and the masses of population.

In the fourth century the Roman impress was still strong in the East; the Latin language was habitually spoken by every educated man, and nearly all the machinery of the administration was worked in Latin phraseology. All law terms are habitually Latin, all titles of officers, all names of taxes and institutions. Writers born and bred in Greece or Asia still wrote in Latin as often as in the Greek which must have been more familiar to them. Ammianus Marcellinus may serve as a fair example: born in Greece, he wrote in the tongue of the ruling race rather than in his own idiom.

Moreover there was still in the lands east of the Adriatic a very large body of Latin-speaking population—comprising all the inhabitants of the inland of the Balkan peninsula, for, except Greece proper, Macedonia, and a scattered line of cities along the Thracian coast, the whole land had learnt to speak the tongue of its conquerors. By the seventh century this Roman element was rapidly vanishing.
Three hundred years for the cultural de-Romanization of the Eastern Roman Empire. We've seen significant cultural de-Americanization in 72 fewer years as America 1.0 gave way to America 2.0, and now 3.0, and the linguistic devolution is already well underway.

I also note the similarity between the failure of the Byzantine men to embrace the masculine duties of their citizenship during this period of decline and the failure of Western women to embrace the feminine duties of theirs.
Some of the developments of the new idea were harmful and even dangerous to the State. They took the form of laying such exclusive stress on the relations between the individual soul and heaven, that the duties of man to the State were half forgotten. Chief among these developments was the ascetic monasticism which, starting from Egypt, spread rapidly all over the empire, more especially over its eastern provinces.

When men retire from their duties as citizens, intent on nothing but on saving their own souls, take up a position outside the State, and cease to be of the slightest use to society, the result may be harmless so long as their numbers are small. But at this time the monastic impulse was working on such a large scale that its development was positively dangerous. It was by thousands and ten thousands that the men who ought to have been bearing the burdens of the State, stepped aside into the monastery or the hermit's cave.

The ascetics of the fifth century had neither of the justifications which made monasticism precious in a later age, they were neither missionaries nor men of learning. The monastery did not devote itself either to sending out preachers and teachers, or to storing up and cherishing the literary treasures of the ancient world.
One could even observe that the office is the modern version of the nunnery, where unmarriageable women who will never have children go to spend their barren lives and busy themselves with make-work until they die.

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100 Comments:

Anonymous BBGKB February 10, 2017 1:07 PM  

It was by thousands and ten thousands that the men who ought to have been bearing the burdens of the State, stepped aside into the monastery or the hermit's cave.

They went Galt instead of supporting the 3rd world leeches.

office is the modern version of the nunnery, where unmarriageable women go to spend their barren lives and busy themselves with make-work until they die

I wish I had that on a sign during the fat ugly woman's march on jan 21st

Anonymous Ross February 10, 2017 1:15 PM  

Sounds like a paradise...all those monasteries.

Monasteries point the way we should all be following if we were strong enough...towards un worldliness and lack of concern with worldly things...

The more monasteries a country has the more spiritually healthy it us. I'm impressed by the strength of will and spiritual vigor of those Byzantines. We are far too weak and unmasculine to turn our backs on worldly things...



Anonymous Sam the Man February 10, 2017 1:16 PM  

Past history does not means we cannot learn from the past, though in truth most of history is the same mistakes being made again and again. Man and institutional memories are short.

A wee bit harder to fathom is what the best way out: it seems some sort of purge/conflict is coming, the county cannot stand divided as it is now. It will either go the way of the left or the right, the middle course cannot last.

Therein lies the problem: the left is evil and cannot be allowed to triumph. Yet the sort of civil war that is coming is one that would give any civilized man pause, it will not be clean or without some measure of horror. Methinks most men of good intention are seeking a better way out, yet none seems to be available. I fear the lights are about to go out and will not come on again until some horrid deeds are done. I do hope the left steps away from the abyss, otherwise they will not like the reaping they have set in motion. Because of the communists history the right cannot let them win, regardless of what measures must be adopted.

Anonymous Tipsy February 10, 2017 1:17 PM  

From what I understand, St. Paul issued the rule: "The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat." because some early Christians decided they'd stop working and wait for the second coming, placing a burden on those who would work. Paul, rightly, put the kibosh on that.

Blogger The Rev February 10, 2017 1:18 PM  

"One could even observe that the office is the modern version of the nunnery, where unmarriageable women who will never have children go to spend their barren lives and busy themselves with make-work until they die."

Shiv of the week.

Blogger VD February 10, 2017 1:21 PM  

I do hope the left steps away from the abyss, otherwise they will not like the reaping they have set in motion.

Stop hoping and prepare the scythes. It's done. This is the waiting period.

Anonymous fop February 10, 2017 1:35 PM  

Sounds almost like Oman is blaming the ascetics. Is he arguing that the decline could have been thwarted if only the ascetics had instead run for public office and taken over the school boards and planning commissions?


Blogger Melampus the Seer February 10, 2017 1:38 PM  

John the Baptist was an ascetic. All of the Apostles were. Paul says it's the best way of life, with marriage a close second. Paul compares the life of an ascetic to the life of a roman boxer, an elite spiritual athlete.

But I have to wonder at the age old question: how to bring together the Christian turning-away-from-worldly-things and political attending-closely-to-worldly-things. Another version of Plato's impossibility of philosopher-kings? I dunno. Still working this out.

Anonymous patrick kelly February 10, 2017 1:40 PM  

This is a very shallow, ignorant, bigoted criticism of monasticism.

It's like blaming the Amish for not engaging in politics as a significant contribution to the current state of affairs in the US. A woefully unprofitable distraction.

Rhetorically strong though.

Blogger Jeff Wood February 10, 2017 1:44 PM  

"Stop hoping and prepare the scythes. It's done. This is the waiting period."

I agree. Like Vox, I am on the right hand side of the Pond, and sense that a lot of men here feel, without necessarily articulating the point, that we are in the waiting period.

Age is almost on me, so some days I wish things would kick off before I get too old. However, knowing what is coming to them, I put some effort into red-pilling my grandsons.

Blogger VD February 10, 2017 1:44 PM  

Sounds almost like Oman is blaming the ascetics. Is he arguing that the decline could have been thwarted if only the ascetics had instead run for public office and taken over the school boards and planning commissions?

Don't be ridiculous. He is merely observing that there were negative effects as well as positive effects from Christianity at that time. Can you honestly say the same isn't true today, with all the Christian charities working to import invaders?

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable February 10, 2017 1:44 PM  

John the Baptist was an ascetic. All of the Apostles were.

No, they were not: "Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?" (1 Corinthians 9:5)

Doesn't sound overly ascetic to me.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash February 10, 2017 1:45 PM  

Ross wrote:Sounds like a paradise...all those monasteries.

Monasteries point the way we should all be following if we were strong enough...towards un worldliness and lack of concern with worldly things...

The more monasteries a country has the more spiritually healthy it us. I'm impressed by the strength of will and spiritual vigor of those Byzantines. We are far too weak and unmasculine to turn our backs on worldly things...


He said from the not-hermitage.

Anonymous Laz February 10, 2017 1:49 PM  

Maybe if the Amish had voiced their opinions it wouldn't be this way now. We'll never know now though

Anonymous VFM #6306 February 10, 2017 1:50 PM  

Monks Going Their Own Way

Anonymous Viking February 10, 2017 1:55 PM  

It is not a criticism of monasticism in general as it references how the later form of it in the middle ages was different and more productive and turned away from looking exclusively inward. I see this as an criticism of what might now be a modern resurgence of a type of self centered monasticism. Vox has mentioned in the past how the MGTOW movement is and understandable reaction to the modern world but not the right one. It is the new hermitic monasticism of the West. Men turning away from a world that lashes them in order to find respite for a wounded soul. I won't blame anybody for giving up on a society shows over and over they are not wanted. But it shouldn't be confused with having the courage to turning around and taking that society back for its own good and disregarding ones own suffering in the process of doing so.

Blogger Melampus the Seer February 10, 2017 1:57 PM  

No, they were not (5343 Kinds of Deplorable)

Yes they were. You just don't know much about asceticism. Many, if not most, ascetics were married. Many ascetics are married today.

If any man would come after Me (i.e., will be My disciple), let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me. (Lk 9:23. Cf. Mt 16:24; Mk 8:34)

Ascetic.

Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life? And Jesus said to him: keep the commandments. And He said to him, Which? And Jesus said, You shall not kill. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness. Honor your father and mother. And, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. The young man said to him, All these I have observed; what do I still lack? Jesus said to him, If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me. (Cf. Mt. 19:16-21; Mk 10:17-31; Lk 28:18-30)

Ascetic.

Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’

Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples. (Lk 14:28-28-33)


Ascetic. And it goes on, and on like that.

Blogger Orville February 10, 2017 1:58 PM  

There's a thought. Today's MGTOW and marriage avoidance in general is the monastic response to feminist churchianity, essentially destroying the foundation of western civ. Ties in very nicely with the things Dalrock writes on.

Slightly OT, but in a halfway decent HuffPo article Bannon appears to be very well read in Strauss and Howes' Fourth Turning and may be intent on actively blowing up the status quo. There may also be some back channel comms with Nassim Taleb too. Bannon is embracing the coming change. I like that.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/steve-bannon-apocalypse_us_5898f02ee4b040613138a951

Blogger Melampus the Seer February 10, 2017 2:03 PM  

monastic response to feminist churchianity (ORville)

No. Retreat into materialism and hedonism is not asceticism. It's the opposite. You don't know anything about asceticism.

Blogger GAHCindy February 10, 2017 2:07 PM  

Ross didn't *quite* get the point, I reckon.

Anonymous Soylent_Green February 10, 2017 2:12 PM  

Thanks Vox for posting this. I love it when modern events can be referenced with past histories. That said, starting to think we should be establishing some fortress monasteries. They're just the thing should the Left succeed and the dark ages follows. We need people devoted to keeping the civilizational hearth glowing. Maybe reestablish the Knights Hospitalars, but more based on the Legion, which is sort of the closest thing to a 'Militant Order' in the modern world. Col. Kratman, interested in being the commander? ;)

Blogger dc.sunsets February 10, 2017 2:22 PM  

History properly recorded always confirms good theory; no polity survives if its members don't actively nurture it.

A healthy society is a living organism; without sustenance it fails and the various individual cells that constitute it fail as well, and are replaced by a more energetic, cohesive society made of different people.

The meek do not inherit more earth than can fill a grave.

History marches to its own internal beat. No man or group thereof can direct it.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents February 10, 2017 2:24 PM  

@14
Maybe if the Amish had voiced their opinions it wouldn't be this way now.

They voted in 2016 in large numbers, unlike previous elections.

Blogger VFM #7634 February 10, 2017 2:24 PM  

Moreover there was still in the lands east of the Adriatic a very large body of Latin-speaking population—comprising all the inhabitants of the inland of the Balkan peninsula, for, except Greece proper, Macedonia, and a scattered line of cities along the Thracian coast, the whole land had learnt to speak the tongue of its conquerors. By the seventh century this Roman element was rapidly vanishing.

~20 million Romanians would disagree with Mr. Oman.

And Serbo-Croatian is said to sound like an Italian trying to speak Russian, suggesting a Romance substrate there.

When men retire from their duties as citizens, intent on nothing but on saving their own souls, take up a position outside the State, and cease to be of the slightest use to society, the result may be harmless so long as their numbers are small. But at this time the monastic impulse was working on such a large scale that its development was positively dangerous. It was by thousands and ten thousands that the men who ought to have been bearing the burdens of the State, stepped aside into the monastery or the hermit's cave.

The funny thing is, in Western Europe, clerical celibacy may have helped weed out men who weren't actually called to serve God. In the East, there were apparently large numbers of slackers who got married and then went into the monastery.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents February 10, 2017 2:26 PM  

I wonder what percentage of men in Egypt and along the eastern coastline went hermit, and if that was a factor in the relative ease of Arab conquest by Mohammed's raiders?

Anonymous Athor Pel February 10, 2017 2:29 PM  

"17. Blogger Melampus the Seer February 10, 2017 1:57 PM
...
If any man would come after Me (i.e., will be My disciple), let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me. (Lk 9:23. Cf. Mt 16:24; Mk 8:34)
...
Ascetic. And it goes on, and on like that."




If you say a stylite is following Christ by standing on a pillar until his feet crack and bleed I'll tell you you're full of shit.

Blogger Gaiseric February 10, 2017 2:35 PM  

VFM #7634 wrote:Moreover there was still in the lands east of the Adriatic a very large body of Latin-speaking population—comprising all the inhabitants of the inland of the Balkan peninsula, for, except Greece proper, Macedonia, and a scattered line of cities along the Thracian coast, the whole land had learnt to speak the tongue of its conquerors. By the seventh century this Roman element was rapidly vanishing.

And Serbo-Croatian is said to sound like an Italian trying to speak Russian, suggesting a Romance substrate there.

You do realize that that's exactly what he said too, right? The Latin spoken in the Balkans is now limited to Romanian and Moldavan. The Slavs replaced (at least linguistically) much of the rest of it when they spread over the area in a movement that largely mirrored the conditions of the Germanic migrations a few centuries earlier.

And then even in "core" former Roman territories, Latin was dropped as a language of any meaning, and the Byzantines were known to their contemporaries simply as the Greeks.

Anonymous smh February 10, 2017 2:38 PM  

OT: Does anyone have a book recommendation on the Spanish Civil War that is not from a leftist/SJW perspective? In other words, a factual book that reports what happened using facts, logic, and reason....

Thanks.

Blogger Jeff Y February 10, 2017 2:42 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Melampus the Seer February 10, 2017 2:44 PM  

If you say a stylite is following Christ by standing on a pillar until his feet crack and bleed I'll tell you you're full of shit. (Athor Pel)

It's an extreme form of fasting probably prohibited by Christ's teachings against self-harming the body. But if you tell me that fasting and self-denial, even extreme forms such as giving up all material possessions, are not part of following Christ, I'll call you a lying asshole.

Anonymous fop February 10, 2017 2:53 PM  

Criticizing the ascetics for "not performing their civic duties" and calling them "dangerous" because they are of "no use to society" when they "should have been bearing the burdens of state"?

Society was a dead corpse. There was no hope, or need, for restoration. The body was bloating and rotten. Asceticism was simply a lifeboat for the remnant to escape the imminent destruction.

One wonders if Oman would level similar criticism at Noah, calling him "dangerous" for shirking his civic duties and concentrating so selfishly on that damned ark.

OpenID anonymos-coward February 10, 2017 3:04 PM  

Monasteries point the way we should all be following if we were strong enough...towards un worldliness and lack of concern with worldly things...

Spoken like a person who has never seen a real-life monastery. In reality, monastic life is modeled after military life. A monastery is run like boot camp, there is very little place for idleness and navelgazing in a monastery.

In the East, there were apparently large numbers of slackers who got married and then went into the monastery.

No, monks cannot be married.

I wonder what percentage of men in Egypt and along the eastern coastline went hermit, and if that was a factor in the relative ease of Arab conquest by Mohammed's raiders?

The relative ease was due to the fact that the conquered lands were predominantly non-chalcedonian heretics. I.e., they were already watered-down lite-Christians for centuries.

Blogger Koanic February 10, 2017 3:04 PM  

That's one helluva holiness spiral.

It's always something.

Get out of the monastery, Gideon.

Anonymous DissidentRight February 10, 2017 3:07 PM  

nunnery, where unmarriageable women who will never have children go to spend their barren lives and busy themselves with make-work until they die.

Weapons grade.

Blogger Flyover Pilgrim February 10, 2017 3:08 PM  

1. If anyone thinks Eastern monastics are looking only to themselves, you know no monastics. Male or female.
2. We don't know what is going on in the noetic. The brave men of Athos delve into a battle most cannot fathom or face.

Blogger Melampus the Seer February 10, 2017 3:26 PM  

One wonders if Oman would level similar criticism at Noah, calling him "dangerous" for shirking his civic duties and concentrating so selfishly on that damned ark. (fop)

I think Vox is basically right. There were downsides. Many military age males in the Byzantine Empire tried to evade military service by becoming monks. That's doesn't reflect badly on monasticism, but on the effeminacy of the shirkers themselves and the society that allowed it.

Monks aren't wimps. And many fought. Think of the Tueutons. Even the earliest manuscripts of European martial arts come from monks! Most of them were legit bad asses, being among the few people hardy enough to travel between the towns unescorted.

https://infogalactic.com/info/Royal_Armouries_Ms._I.33

Blogger pyrrhus February 10, 2017 3:34 PM  

@36. William the Conqueror's brother Odo Bishop of Bayeux, was reportedly a ferocious warrior and fought at Hastings. He used a mace rather than a sword, because men of God were not allowed to "shed blood" by using edged weapons.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash February 10, 2017 3:50 PM  

Monasticism, properly executed, is not a place for shirkers or cowards.
Monasticism, improperly executed, is a sinkhole.

A monk is sworn to obedience, prayer and mortification. A monk does as he is told without objecting. Idle talk is discouraged or forbidden. The prayer regimen alone is taxing, allowing only about 6 hours of sleep, and that interrupted in the middle of the night. A monk earns his bread and cabbage (and little else) by the work of his hands. Most are not allowed to own property.

Heinlein was said "Moderation is for monks." This is an absolute falsehood. A monk is engaged in the mastery of his body and soul. There is no less moderate man in the world than a monk.

On the other hand, a great many monasteries have gone the way of idleness and immorality. And in those circumstances, a rich man who wanted to avoid his civic duty of service could easily hide in a monastery, live in relative luxury, and consort with prostitutes.

If you want to know where Western civilization began dying, it was in Henry VIII's dissolution of the monasteries.

Blogger Melampus the Seer February 10, 2017 3:54 PM  

What Snidely Whiplash said.

Blogger Basil Makedon February 10, 2017 3:54 PM  

Don't get me wrong, I love history and -- as you might guess from my pseudonym -- I particularly love the ERE. We could argue about the utility of the Monastic Orders to the ERE for days without resolution.

VD's point stands as valid, regardless. In today's world sitting on a metaphorical pillar or decamping to the modern equivalent of an abandoned Legionary fort in the Sahara and waiting either to die or for Christ to scoop you up serves no higher purpose.

In short, does retreating into a life of asceticism today do anything to defend or preserve Western Civilization? I think not.

Anonymous Job February 10, 2017 3:56 PM  

Enno Franzius wrote the same thing about the late Byzantine Empire. The smallholders who made up the militia sold their land to magnates and went into monasteries. Ultimately those rich men converted to Islam and the land passed into the hands of the Turks.

Neglecting ones social and familial duties is not spiritual. It is the sin of Adam, who stood by as Eve was deceived.

Anonymous fop February 10, 2017 3:59 PM  

There were downsides.

Yes, but you say that like it's a bad thing.

Asceticism was counterculture in the extreme.

"Civic duty"? Seriously?

Blogger Jared Mummaw February 10, 2017 3:59 PM  

It was the fashion from Gibbon until relatively recently to portray the Byzantines as effete and otherworldly, in a perpetual decline. They did quite fine without the Latin element, building a capable government and a powerful army capable of defending an empire with no real natural boundaries.

Apart from their spiritual value, the monasteries were the most powerful conservative force in the empire. Every time some innovation threatened to corrupt the faith, which was also the basis for the state ideology, it was the monks who came out to denounce it. Individual emperors might try to change things (Arianism, Iconoclasm, etc.) but the monks, acting as the voice of tradition, always managed to shut it down, even if it took decades. Enlightenment figures like Gibbon might disparage it, but as a Neoreactionary, I look back on the Byzantine Empire as a font of good examples.

Blogger allyn71 February 10, 2017 4:03 PM  

Stop hoping and prepare the scythes. It's done. This is the waiting period.

And another 1000 rnds jut got ordered.

Harden your mind, harden your body, and harden your heart. The die is cast.

Blogger Silly But True February 10, 2017 4:20 PM  

So the chaste monks were essentially the Empire's version of the Senate.

Wishful thinking then if our senators would go and become full eunuchs and take vows of silence?

Blogger Orville February 10, 2017 4:21 PM  

@19 No. Retreat into materialism and hedonism is not asceticism. It's the opposite. You don't know anything about asceticism.

No Melumpus, I wasn't addressing ascetism, but a larger phenomena of broken Christianity leading to broken society. Men retiring from their duties as citizens re marriage in today's case because feminism in the church as corrupted marriage which is a bedrock of society.

Blogger Melampus the Seer February 10, 2017 4:21 PM  

In short, does retreating into a life of asceticism today do anything to defend or preserve Western Civilization? I think not. (Basil Makedon)

I believe prayer can change things and preserve things. Monks choose a life of prayer and fasting. Mostly they pray for the preservation of Christendom and the conversion of heathens. I believe monks have a role in preserving Western civilization.

However, I do struggle with what you write about. I don't want to make light of or minimize what you're saying, Basil Makedon. There is a tension in my mind and heart over the life that renounces the world and the life that seeks to preserve a civilization. It's something I still wonder about both practically and theologically.

Blogger Melampus the Seer February 10, 2017 4:33 PM  

No Melumpus, I wasn't addressing ascetism (Orville)

I gotcha. My bad. I've been unusually engaged in the comments section because this period of Byzantine history is very interesting to me, and like Vox, I think relevant to our times. If I jumped the gun on you, forgive me.

Blogger Orville February 10, 2017 4:37 PM  

No problem. I agree with the necessity of prayer.

Anonymous james@wpc February 10, 2017 4:38 PM  

"One could even observe that the office is the modern version of the nunnery, where unmarriageable women who will never have children go to spend their barren lives and busy themselves with make-work until they die."

BOOM! That is a powerful parallel

Blogger kaflick February 10, 2017 4:46 PM  

fop wrote:Sounds almost like Oman is blaming the ascetics. Is he arguing that the decline could have been thwarted if only the ascetics had instead run for public office and taken over the school boards and planning commissions?



I think that the main duty that he was referring to was the military. It was mostly made up of the small landowners and businessmen (as a militia) and when they went into the monasteries that weakened the empire and made it a soft target.

Much of the military was mercenary troops because of that, and that rarely ends well.

The exact same thing could be said about the Amish, if they were a large percentage of the nation and unwilling to defend it militarily, the effect would be the same.

Blogger VFM #7634 February 10, 2017 4:56 PM  

The Slavs replaced (at least linguistically) much of the rest of it when they spread over the area in a movement that largely mirrored the conditions of the Germanic migrations a few centuries earlier.

@27 Gaiseric
The weird thing is that the Germanic tribes never replaced any Latin-speaking areas with their own, with the sole exception of England, which the Romans had explicitly abandoned. France, Lombardy, Spain... all are still Romance-speaking areas.

But the Slavs apparently did impose their language.

I'm wondering if ex-Yugoslavia and Bulgaria (and Albania, for that matter) were inhabited by various Indo-European tribes that still only spoke Latin as a second language due to its being close to Greece, where Latin never became a first language, and the Romanians' ancestors were the only ones who had adopted it as a first language. The Illyrians and Thracians then switched to Slavic once the Slavs moved in and established some order in the region, much as how the Romans did to the Celts in Gaul and Spain (and the Dacians). The Albanians were far-enough south and barbaric enough to resist Slavicization as they did Latinization or Hellenization.

Blogger kaflick February 10, 2017 4:57 PM  

I have been researching this period, I am 76,000 words into and alternate history fantasy where Constantinople fell in 718 and the Saracen invasion ended up taking all of Europe within another century or so. The remnants of the Holy Roman Empire is now in Atlantis (North America)

Blogger Silly But True February 10, 2017 5:00 PM  

Amish mafia willing to fuck some people up over cow patty gambling and rumspringa liquer revenue, though.
http://r.ddmcdn.com/s_f/o_1/DSC/uploads/2015/02/amish-mafia-bio-mary.jpg

Anonymous Daniel H February 10, 2017 5:03 PM  

"One could even observe that the office is the modern version of the nunnery, where unmarriageable women who will never have children go to spend their barren lives and busy themselves with make-work until they die."

OUCH!

Anonymous crushlimbraw February 10, 2017 5:07 PM  

“When men retire from their duties as citizens, intent on nothing but on saving their own souls, take up a position outside the State, and cease to be of the slightest use to society, the result may be harmless so long as their numbers are small.”

Pretty much describes the modern church in America for at least 100 years. Not only that, they’re quite prideful about it. How do I know? Used to be one!

Blogger RmaxGenactivePUA Mgtow February 10, 2017 5:09 PM  

Catholic monasteries are ground zero for homo's

Nunneries even today are massive breeding grounds of feminists & butch lesbians

Blogger RmaxGenactivePUA Mgtow February 10, 2017 5:10 PM  

Catholic monasteries are ground zero for homo's

Nunneries even today are massive breeding grounds of feminists & butch lesbians

Blogger ace February 10, 2017 5:15 PM  

Asceticism might be the terminal phase of MGTOW and PUA, when one rules out other paths like suicide or blue-pill recidivism. One can only play so many vidya games or bang so many club sluts before he asks himself two important questions: a) "why isn't this making me happy? and b) "what's the end game?"

The problem is that these players, in both senses of the word, do not live in the ancient world and do not have access to monasticism or philosophy. They have chosen to disengage along the lines of what they know. So I don't blame them.

It would be funny and illuminating to do a "where are they now" on Strauss' seminal work The Game. What paths did these fellows eventually follow? It's seems from reading PUAs for years that there's no lasting happiness in sight. Mystery wanted two chicks. That's a metastable arrangement at best. What's the MGTOW plan--play Overwatch until one dies alone and unmourned?

There appear to be only two things capable of making a man happy: a life of the mind and a loving wife and children. Preferably both, in degrees, but certainly not neither. At least the ancients had it half right.

Blogger Scott February 10, 2017 5:16 PM  

"... linguistic devolution is already well underway."

You do not have to speak English to vote or even become a U.S. Citizen if over 50 (50/20 rule and 55/15 rule)

"(Voting Rights Act) Coverage was further enlarged in 1975 when Congress expanded the meaning of "tests or devices" to encompass any jurisdiction that provided English-only election information, such as ballots, if the jurisdiction had a single language minority group that constituted more than five percent of the jurisdiction's voting-age citizens."
-from InfoGalactic

Anonymous Nick Diaz February 10, 2017 5:17 PM  

Ha ha ha ha h aha…the federal court of appeals has just sustained judge Robart’s repeal of Trump’s Travel and Immigration Executive Order. Ooooooh…I am so happy Get bent, conservatives!The big irony of this situation is that even a conservative judge nomeated by George W.Bush considers Trump to be a buffoon.

Trump is an illegitimate president who lost the popular vote. And it’s not like he lost by a small margin. He actually lost by more than a million votes. In all democracies, the only thing that matters is the popular vote. One person, one vote. Only America has this anomaly called the electoral college.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Trump’s presidency is going to be a war. If it were only the liberals that were all against him, it would be one thing. But even a large part of Republicans find him and his ideas deplorable as well. President Bush Senior has already stated that Trump does not have the character or emotional maturity to be President of the U.S. Even a staunch conservative, a war hero at that, finds Trump repulsive. Add to that that he lost the popular vote, and his Presidency is going to be a war.

I am making a prediction: Trump will not be able to implement more than 90% of what he promised durin ghis campaign. Most of his promises will be vetoed by both liberal and conservative judges, and the Republican Congress itself will not give him clout most of the time because he is seen as too radical on some issues, and too soft on other issues that are dear to Republicans.

Trump’s Presidency will implode. He will either get impeached or resign. Even if he finishes his term, which I find unlikey, he won’t win relection fraudulently like he did this time.

Restricting immigration is simply unacceptable, and it is time for Vox Day and his minions to accept this. America was built by immigrants. Every American citizen except for Native Americans is the descendant of immigrants. Vox Day himself is the descendant of immigrants.

Blogger Кирилл Красильников February 10, 2017 5:22 PM  

Someone should show these passages to Rod Dreher

Anonymous Cyclone Bob February 10, 2017 5:33 PM  

You have to go, Spick Diaz

OpenID thetroll February 10, 2017 5:33 PM  

> What's the MGTOW plan--play Overwatch until one dies alone and unmourned?

Speaking personally, moving to Thailand and shacking up with an Isan peasant girl is working out quite enjoyably so far. Traditional societies FTW!

Blogger Ivaneus February 10, 2017 5:33 PM  

@61. The USA is not a Democracy Nick Diaz, Never has been.

Thanks for playing but you don't win the lifetime supply of Riceroni.

Anonymous Ages February 10, 2017 5:35 PM  

There is a lot of knowledge lacking about the theology of asceticism.

Asceticism is self-denial. The Christian life is fundamentally ascetic in nature. There is no Christianity apart from asceticism.

Monasticism is radical asceticism, a literal living-out of Christ's commandment to deny oneself entirely and live only for the sake of Christ. This is not something everyone is called to, rather, very few. In fact, the great Eastern preachers like St. John Chrysostom made it their mission to change people in the world, not send people to monasteries.

The Church needs monastics to continue and uphold a vision of the radical nature of Christ's calling to perfection, and we who remain in the secular world must see ourselves as falling short of Christ's calling.

That does not mean, however, that all people should join monasteries. Monasticism is a calling, but marriage is also a calling, one that is received by the majority of people.

The Byzantine state ran on the principle of Symphonia. The state has its role in society, and the church has its role. The roles are separate but complimentary. Symphonia is the closest to perfection a society can get.

The Byzantine empire did not fall because of monasticism. Such an idea can only be perpetuated by someone who has no real understanding of the theology of monasticism, or indeed its practice or role in the Eastern Church.

Anonymous Dark February 10, 2017 5:44 PM  

its not mens duty to sacrifice themselves for a dead dying or useless to them society one only protects what belongs to them other wise who cares no doubt there was the same wide spread social problems in the eastern roman empire as there is in the west today it has nothing to do with men checking out to worship the sky god its them making a fair and individual choice best suited to themselves due to a empire/country/societies inability to have them belong .

Tho i guess its easier to say men are unmanly somehow magically its all mens fault after all

Blogger VFM #7634 February 10, 2017 5:46 PM  

I am making a prediction: Trump will not be able to implement more than 90% of what he promised durin ghis campaign.

@61 Nick Diaz
That's fine, we'll take 90%. /contemptuous smirk

Blogger Ivaneus February 10, 2017 5:54 PM  

I have a serious question for Nicky Diaz,

"When you're typing your little screed does your rage increase as your keys go *cuck* *cuck* *cuck* *cuck* as you furiously type?"

Anonymous Nick the Spaz February 10, 2017 5:54 PM  

HAHAHAHA!
We had a minor temporary victory! That means you lose forever!

And the GOP establishment doesn't like you! That means you're a poopyhead! You're a bunch of neo-Nazi Commie poopyheads!

And soon there'll be a war, and it'll be grat because the Blacks and the Army will kill all of you, and I will be perfectly safe, here in my Safe Space! Safe from poopyheads, and all you poopyheads will be dead!

I'm making a prediction! Trump will give me a blowjob!. It'll be the closest I've ever been to having sex, and it'll be grat!!!

And Trump will all deflate like the inflatable clown that's my waifu does! He'll be all firm and taut and then just as you finally get it in he'll go all wobbly and you'll be left wanking it through two pieces of plastic again and it'll chafe and hurt! Which is just what you deserve, not me, you poopyheads!
And then you will all die! And I'll be so happy! because you're all poopyheads!

Restricting immigration is something only a poopyhead would do! It's time for you White supremacist poopyheads to go away!

Anonymous kfg February 10, 2017 5:56 PM  

"One person, one vote."

Not even the Birthplace of Democracy did it that way. The voting citizens were, in effect, an electoral college.

An unelected electoral college.

Blogger Silly But True February 10, 2017 5:58 PM  

90%? "Trump's ceiling can't be more than 15-20%. There's absolutely no chance he wins the primary. And Hillary would destroy him in the gen..."

Blogger Snidely Whiplash February 10, 2017 5:59 PM  

Ages wrote:The Byzantine empire did not fall because of monasticism. Such an idea can only be perpetuated by someone who has no real understanding of the theology of monasticism, or indeed its practice or role in the Eastern Church.
But the argument could be (and has been) made that the exemption from military service corrupted the monasteries of Byzantium, and I'm sure you would acknowledge that corrupted monasticism can, and has, ruined societies.

Anonymous Cyclone Bob February 10, 2017 6:04 PM  

"Traditional societies FTW!"

A traditional society that lets outsiders fuck their young women will not be keeping its traditions.

Blogger Orville February 10, 2017 6:18 PM  

Hey Dick Spaz, while you were writing that Drudge was headlining multi-city DHS raids across the country. Better check on your cousins.

Blogger Salt February 10, 2017 6:18 PM  

and then there's mom's basement

Blogger Silly But True February 10, 2017 6:22 PM  

What does one say about Berkeley, CA whose tradition, unchanged in at least 80 years, is to let outsiders fuck their young women?

Blogger Elizabeth February 10, 2017 6:26 PM  

In Roman Catholic medieval Europe, an upper-class male had only two occupational choices: the clergy or knighthood. An upper-class lady could either be a nun or knight's wife.

Anonymous MongoJimmy February 10, 2017 6:27 PM  

Mayhap the alarming glut of middle aged, angry, childless, blue haired, tattooed cat ladies shall serve as a grim warning to the young ladies of the moment.

Anonymous PutinBot6533 February 10, 2017 6:28 PM  

Shitlib Democrats fear old books:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/behind-the-internets-dark-anti-democracy-movement/516243/

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/02/steve-bannon-books-reading-list-214745

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/02/10/world/europe/bannon-vatican-julius-evola-fascism.html

https://www.rawstory.com/2017/02/meet-the-scary-italian-fascist-thinker-approvingly-cited-by-steve-bannon/

Blogger ace February 10, 2017 6:30 PM  

Silly But True wrote:What does one say about Berkeley, CA whose tradition, unchanged in at least 80 years, is to let outsiders fuck their young women?

They used to have a tradition of nonviolence and now they don't. Is this a trick question?

OpenID thetroll February 10, 2017 6:41 PM  

@Cyclone Bob

> A traditional society that lets outsiders fuck their young women will not be keeping its traditions.

In these parts, the tradition of richer lighter skinned Siamese having concubines from the poorer darker peasant classes (Isan people are more Lao than Siamese) has survived centuries. Having downright pasty skinned farang such as myself come along doesn't disturb that fine, fine traditional social arrangement in the slightest. Shoots us right to the top of the SMV market, in fact. Rather a refreshing contrast to Western society these days!

Blogger S1AL February 10, 2017 7:13 PM  

Is it really necessary to distinguish between "monasticism, the theory" and "monasticism, the practice"? Because the entirety of the debate here is based on differentiating between the two.

Blogger Cail Corishev February 10, 2017 7:47 PM  

A traditional society that lets outsiders fuck their young women will not be keeping its traditions.

No, but I don't suppose the immigrant from America to Thailand cares any more about preserving the host nation's culture in the long term than the immigrant from Bumfuckistan to America does.

Blogger Silly But True February 10, 2017 8:11 PM  

@ace
Touche'

Anonymous Dan February 10, 2017 8:28 PM  

I come from Romania where the ascetic tradition is still followed even till this day. We have hermits that live in mountains. There aren't as many as there were in the past, but u'll still find some.
Monks actually advice the same things this site does: marry young, have lots of kids, take care of your ethnic group.
But I'll be honest and say that there are some monasteries that are into hardcore gay stuff, but smg tells me this is a most recent phenomenon.

Blogger wreckage February 10, 2017 9:14 PM  

Vox observation on "careers" (usually in demeaning mid-wage hamster-wheels) is brutal and on-point.

Blogger Tom Kratman February 10, 2017 9:30 PM  

Well, of _course_ I would be interested.

Anonymous Avalanche February 10, 2017 9:45 PM  

@2 "Monasteries point the way we should all be following if we were strong enough...towards un worldliness and lack of concern with worldly things..."

Until the Vikings sweep in, put all the monks to the sword, and steal all the gold candlesticks?

Are we not IN this world to live according to GOD'S plans for us? Render unto Caesar! Choosing unworldliness IN the world is not strength but ... laziness? cowardice? apostasy? lack of picking up responsibility?

Blogger Skyler the Weird February 10, 2017 10:25 PM  

Troll. They refer to the Franks as Faranj in Siam too? I've always thought it weird the Crusaders made such an impression in the East they still refer to White people as The Franks.

Blogger plishman February 10, 2017 10:25 PM  

The true hermit who is following his calling is never alone. He always has the company of the Holy Spirit, indeed his life of solitude would likely be unbearable without it. He spends his time apart from men so that he can share as much of it as possible with the Holy Spirit.

In those days, the Spirit was everywhere in the lives of men in grace, and they knew it.

Anonymous Hapax Legomenon February 10, 2017 11:35 PM  

We need some fightin' monks, like the Shaolin.

Blogger Benjamin Kraft February 11, 2017 1:36 AM  

@89. Avalanche, the word you're looking for is Acedia. It used to be included as an "eighth" deadly sin. Effectively it means "insufficient Zeal", but you could easily call it a hybrid of perverse contentment and spiritual mortification.

Anonymous Mahbahlzr Richey February 11, 2017 7:04 AM  

Trump "lost" the popular vote only because of illegal immigrants voting such as yourself. You need to be deported.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey February 11, 2017 9:13 AM  

@Jared Mummaw
"It was the fashion from Gibbon until relatively recently to portray the Byzantines as effete and otherworldly, in a perpetual decline."

Good point. A decline that lasted for a mere thousand years after the fall of the Western Empire. No empire lasts forever, but they had a pretty good run. Ezra Pound had a theory as to one potential contributing factor to the relative longevity of the Byzantine Empire...

Anonymous Shut up rabbit February 11, 2017 11:48 AM  

In medieval France, nunneries were little more than bordellos and their clients were mainly monks and priests...but that's just France: always bending over.

Blogger Maxwell Dorer February 11, 2017 2:20 PM  

Somebody needs a helicopter ride

Blogger Tuatha February 11, 2017 11:18 PM  

Reading this motivates me to get some wives and buy land in the north where I can create the first village of sinnsreachd in the world and simultaneously outbreed and deconvert as many christians as possible to join it.

DAGDA LEINN! LUGH AGUS OGMA LEAM!

OpenID samseau February 14, 2017 11:41 AM  

Monks are a faulty parallel to feminists.

When men do not have children, literally nothing happens. All populations produce a tremendous surplus of men relative to child-bearing women.

This is why men are routinely slaughtered in wars and yet the population, traditionally, continues to increase. Men remaining bachelors is inconsequential.

Only when the women are corrupted do we see populations decline during peacetime.

Considering the average Empire lasts only 250 years, I'd say the 1000 year run of the Byzantines proves that monks were a good use of surplus men to stabilize the empire.

Therefore comparing monks to feminists makes no sense because you are treating women and men as equals, which is absurd.

The corruption of Latin women should be a topic you focus on, Vox. Once the women became corrupt, it was over for the Latins. Greek women remained Christian and had massive families, thus Rome became Byzantium.

Anonymous red6020 February 16, 2017 7:45 PM  

I find Oman's (Protestant) denigration of enclosed monastics to be rather beside the point.

Imagine these monastics as being merely taken out of the population. As if they had died rather than gone to a monastery or hermit's cave.

In such a case, it it quite evident that the Eastern Roman Empire was not weakened by the rise of Monasticism. Indeed, it survived another thousand years with it.

Even considering the losses in that specific era, the Romans did not lose Egypt and the Levant to the Arabs b/c of a lack of men. Whatever lack was more caused by the wars with Persia. Dissatisfaction and division from anti-Chalcedonian schismatics and heretics led to a weak resistance to Arab rule.

If anything, Oman's historical allusion is more appropriate as a reminder of the importance of religious unity.

His critique reads more like the typical complaints of Protestant anti-monastics who denigrate the contemplative life.

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