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Thursday, March 09, 2017

H1B: the real cost-benefit

Why the H1B visa program should be shut down without delay:
A close look at H1BPays.com’s data shows that, as you move past the Googles and Microsofts of the IT world, H-1B salaries tend to cluster around the $65,000 to $75,000 level.  There is a reason for this.  If outsourcing companies pay their H-1B workers at least $60,000, the company is exempted from a number of regulations designed to prevent visa abuse.

But $60,000 is far below 2016 market rates for most tech jobs.

In 2014 (the last year we have good data), Infosys, Cognizant, Wipro, and Tata Consultancy used 21,695 visas, or more than 25 percent of all private-sector H-1B visas used that year. Microsoft, Google, Facebook, and Uber, for comparison, used only 1,763 visas, or 2 percent.

What’s the difference? Infosys, Cognizant, Wipro, and Tata are all outsourcing companies. Their business model involves using H-1B visas to bring low-cost workers into the United States and then renting those workers to other companies. Their competitive advantage is price. That is, they make their money by renting their workers for less than companies would have to pay American workers.

 This is the real story of the H-1B visa. It is a tool used by companies to avoid hiring American workers, and avoid paying American wages. For every visa used by Google to hire a talented non-American for $126,000, ten Americans are replaced by outsourcing companies paying their H-1B workers $65,000.
That's how you kill high tech in America. It's time for the God-Emperor to shut the program down entirely. There is ABSOLUTELY zero need for it. Let Microsoft and Google move to India if they think they can get better coders there.

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255 Comments:

1 – 200 of 255 Newer› Newest»
Blogger Dirk Manly March 09, 2017 11:03 AM  

I've been personally shafted by this outrage for the last 14 yesrs, driving me into near poverty.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Deplorable Cents March 09, 2017 11:09 AM  

This has been going on for 20 years or longer. Part of the game includes advertising IT and engineering positions at a wage below market, sometimes 60% of market. Then the employer gets to claim "We advertised but no Americans applied! Wah! Gibs us H1B!". GW Bush could have shut it down, but didn't, because uniparty.

It is long, long past time for this program to just be shut down. Shut right down, and never revived.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer March 09, 2017 11:10 AM  

That's how you kill high tech in America.

Exactly. If you are a "citizen of the world" you won't care. But, if nobody in the states goes into a field (because it is low paying and all the jobs go to foreigners anyway) then nobody in the states will get the experience needed to start and/or lead businesses relating to that field. And since all the expertise is now outside of the US, that's one more industry gone.

Blogger Brian Thomas March 09, 2017 11:10 AM  

But, but, but....my former company saved a FORTUNE by getting rid of all the (white) software testers and bringing in H1B's from India. Sure, their work was largely sub-par and everybody complained about how hard it was to communicate with them, but, damn it (!) we saved money!! And that's what America is all about!

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer March 09, 2017 11:12 AM  

Part of the game includes advertising IT and engineering positions at a wage below market, sometimes 60% of market.

A couple of years ago I was looking for a new gig because the project I was on was finishing up. I saw IT jobs in Manhattan advertised with salary rates of 50 to 60 thousand dollars.

Blogger KBuff March 09, 2017 11:13 AM  

It's the number one reason I went into patent law almost 18 years ago. Pretty soon, three of my kids will have to deal with it on some level.

Blogger pyrrhus March 09, 2017 11:16 AM  

What I would like to ask our politicians is why, if there is really a shortage of quality coders and software designers in the US, almost all the best software seems to be written in the US....

Blogger JWM in SD March 09, 2017 11:22 AM  

"I've been personally shafted by this outrage for the last 14 yesrs, driving me into near poverty."

It hasn't driven me to poverty, but it drove to something that I never was really interested in doing after 2009 when the bottom really dropped out.

Blogger Dave March 09, 2017 11:26 AM  

I've always thought that every company hiring utilizing H1-B workers should be required to fund a scholarship designed to replace the foreign worker. If they truly need them that badly, this shouldn't be a problem.

Blogger Bill March 09, 2017 11:28 AM  

It would be one thing if these H1b's could code, but they can't. I believe there are like 20 good coders in India, and they fix everyone else's code. We need a lot fewer programmers, but better ones. The Mythical Man-month by by Fred Brooks is gospel.

Anonymous Rather, Not March 09, 2017 11:30 AM  

The only nuance I would add is that the program should be good for America and Americans, and it is not. Disruption is not good either, and the value is all going to foreigners and foreign companies at America's expense. The ideal corrective factor in my mind would be to add a $100/mo fee, escalating at $100/mo to employers of H1Bs. At first this would be minor, and no real disruption to either high or low priced H1Bs, but clear enough that everyone would see the writing on the wall, and make startegic and planning adjustments, but do so over the period of months or a year or two. By the end of his Administration, the sum of the monthly fees should be over $50k/year and still escalating, there should be no 'cheap' H1Bs, many fewer 'high skill' H1Bs, and the high skill H1B would be brought in more temporarily to train and develop American talent rather than do grunt work. The transition should be smooth and managable, plus it would penalize companies who most abused the program relative to those who didn't, and we would have the bonus meme of seeing H1Bs train their American replacements.

Blogger Aeroschmidt March 09, 2017 11:31 AM  

I like this idea. One free ride for every H1B.

Anonymous Rather, Not March 09, 2017 11:32 AM  

Oh, and I would put all of the proceeds of H1B fees into the Social Security Trust Fund in the form of Corporate Bonds rather then gov't bonds, to buy off the boomer vote. Shift the conversation from 'Why do you hate foreigners?' to 'Why do you hate old people and social security?'

Blogger dc.sunsets March 09, 2017 11:33 AM  

Coding can be done anywhere in the world. A company can outsource (offshore) coding with the push of a button.

Why physically import foreigners to displace the Natives? There has to be a "concentrated benefits, diffuse costs" trade-off. Is it operating under a stable, (relatively) predictable American system without the pesky costs and uppity behavior of Americans?

Financial capital can go anywhere it wants today, but the unique attributes of Commonweal Civilization are geographically FIXED.

The H1-B system is thus a clone of leftists' cogdis, that they can have the fruits of something without the only trees capable of producing them.

I'm sick to death of this "have our cake and eat it too" mentality.

Blogger Aeroschmidt March 09, 2017 11:34 AM  

Instead of H1B my industry uses TN visas to acquire Mexican engineers. Mexicans are cheaper than the paperwork for H1B. Plus you still have that captive worker situation, because it's a visa.

Repeal NAFTA!!!!

Blogger digz March 09, 2017 11:36 AM  

I am a H1B beneficiary myself (been in US for 11 years ) and moved on to better salaries, but fundamentally disagree with the program. I understand in most peoples eyes i am being a hypocrite, but read on.

If india had good job opportunities I personally would like to work in India. ( as VD says Google and MSFT were really invested there, this would not be needed, truth is they never will ). I started from Infosys got a consulting opportunity at a US bank and moved on to become a full time at that US bank.

Not just raw opportunity, but also equality of opportunity is skewed by the H1B program, you may want to work in india , but you see your peers getting US opportunities via H1B , earning in USD and sending money back home, buying expensive houses/cars in india to only use use them for 2 weeks a year while you are driving through polluted roads, fighting bad office culture, doing US hours in India..etc.. ,
To top that some percentage of the lucky H1B lottery winners also get a green card, and all of a sudden the not so smart guy from school earns 20X your annual income is settled in the best country in the world, and you are wondering what did you do wrong, or why your children can't have the national parks..etc.. and rest as they say follows. You will want to keep trying that lottery and as soon as you hit jack pot you never ever want to come back. No one wants those decline in living standards from a previous VD post. The only way to level the field is no more H1B, and certainly no green card for existing H1Bs so there is a tenure to the current winners.

While the top 3 consultants in India( infosys, tcs, cognizant ) game 60-70% of the system by one selecting any one and everyone who can speak in english for the US jobs( most kids don't have any computer skills ). and 2 usurping almost the entire lottery slots for themselves.

Small mom and pop consultancies in the US game the system further by doing what is called body shopping, sponsoring a H1B without an actual job, and selling for a higher hourly rate, once a job is found. The ones desperate to settle in US take those body shopping offers.

I feel a lot of india engineers who feel pressured to enter the H1B lottery, would heave a sigh of relief if it was shut down, so all engineers in india are looking for indian jobs not "USD" jobs. There is a slight possibility that India goes into a jobs recession after this, but hey I have had my day, also i want fairness in opportunity not a 1/3 chance some one just gets ahead of you indefinitely for the rest of your life.

The same also applies for the kids who want to do masters in US to get a job in US. Trust me no one wants to learn the subject for the sake of it. 99% of them want to settle in US.
There should be some sort of cool off period after MS, like you go back to your home country for 5 years before you get a job in US after masters in US . I say this because the more aggressive of the lot of people wanting to move to US, simply get a very high GRE score and then start applying to grad schools after there undergrad in india. The student VISA is far easier to get than H1B, and then through the OPT and what not ensure there stay in US.

A lot of kids who failed the lottery after 4 attempts also now enter fake schools with only weekend classes, so you go back to the J1 program and continue working to give yourself another 4 years of H1b lottery.

I can go on and on about the gamification of H1B.

I will be very impressed though if the god emperor can actually fight through this scheme. He has to piss off every big corporation in America, my only hope is he didn't take money from anyone, so if something untoward doesn't happen to his administration or presidency.. he is the only only only one likely to pull this off .

Blogger tuberman March 09, 2017 11:36 AM  

Agreed, H1B program is absolutely destructive to America.

Blogger digz March 09, 2017 11:40 AM  

Also Google and MSFT and others will virtue signal about the H1B program all year long, but they would never give up the opportunity to work in the most business friendly country in the world. Its like pseudo feminists saying freedom for hijab while living in the US, but would never move to saudi if asked.

Blogger Cail Corishev March 09, 2017 11:40 AM  

It doesn't need nuance; it needs to be shut down. No, we don't need any H-1Bs to "train" Americans, not even temporarily.

Contract rates for IT work are basically the same as they were when I got into it 20 years ago. Sure, you can make great money if you specialize in something that's in high demand right now, but that was always the case. For general coding or IT expertise, wages have stagnated or gone down. This in an industry that has been growing like crazy, making and/or saving money for the people who use it like few advances in history.

Blogger dc.sunsets March 09, 2017 11:41 AM  

One caveat: Americans are addicted to the little candies dropped by Globalism's unicorns. Many of our most cutting-edge toys are products of cooperation driven by worldwide coordination of Lowest Common Denominator outsourcing.

The future is contraction. Peak social trust required rationalizations for outsourcing, and those rationalizations were never honest, just convenient.

Outsourcing will fade. Importing workers will end. Protectionism will rise. Barriers will be erected, and quite frankly a lot of top-line trinkets, toys and geegaws will disappear. Real prices for consumer goods will rise.

This isn't a bad thing, it's a predictable condition. Costs were artificially low, cooperation artificially high and the hidden costs of these things will no longer be ignored.

Anonymous lpdbw March 09, 2017 11:48 AM  

I am a victim of this, though mostly at the fringes.
I worked for systems integrators and did tech software development for years, including managing a niche logistics product from requirements analysis through delivery and support.

In 2008 I got caught in a layoff, and tech work at my salary level was not available in the US for a white guy. I changed fields to DBA and operations work, took a 15% pay cut, and used about 15% of my training.

I'm finally caught up in salary, but the H1B folk have depressed salaries nationwide in IT.

They have to go back.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents March 09, 2017 11:48 AM  

@19 Cail Corishev
Contract rates for IT work are basically the same as they were when I got into it 20 years ago.

So the law of supply and demand doesn't apply to IT contract world, because there's always another "Shortage! IT Shortage! We need more computer scientists!" article somewhere. Or maybe it's all bullshit, and the social elites in the US are addicted to cheap labor from the lettuce patch all the way up to Wall Street IT. Gosh, I'm so confused.

Anonymous CloseHauled March 09, 2017 11:48 AM  

I contract through my own company (1099) so I cut out the middle man most of the time.

With middleman, the contracting rates I see are no different than they were 10 years ago.

As Scott Adams blogged about today, immigration only helps the 1%.

Blogger Dirk Manly March 09, 2017 11:49 AM  

THREE scholarships. That way they can't claim that their sole beneficiary got snatched up, and thereby plead continuing need for their H1Booger.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents March 09, 2017 11:51 AM  

@20 dc.sunsets

Oh, go on, you can't convince me that Candy Crush will vanish from phones if the H1B program is killed.

Anonymous Looking Glass March 09, 2017 11:51 AM  

@14 Sadly, the answer is a lot more simple. We have lots of MBAs. They need to prove their worth. If you outsource or hire H1Bs, your revenue stays the same but profit margin increases, thus you get a bonus.

We have a lot of stupid people with MBAs and jobs at major companies. They make stupid decisions that more than 15 minutes of thought would show doesn't work. With the exception of *some* manufacturing, outsourcing has been a pretty hefty failure. And the quality of H1Bs is almost always a net-negative, but stupid MBAs can't understand that.

@16 Nothing hypocritical about using a system, understanding it properly, then pointing out it's supremely bad for everyone involved. Self-interest and lack of understanding are fine, it's when you get to the other side and lack the ability to accept the reality of what has taken place that's hypocritical.

Anonymous CloseHauled March 09, 2017 11:51 AM  

Recruiters have a hard time finding qualified engineers for open positions because no one will leave their current contract or full-time position for roughly what they are currently making.

Blogger dc.sunsets March 09, 2017 11:53 AM  

This same crap applies to foreign-born, foreign trained doctors.

The notion that the USA is short of ANYTHING is simply ridiculous, most especially people. We have perhaps 94 million working age people not working, and the only way this can occur is if economic incentives are warped beyond recognizability.

Despite the university-industrial-complex, most work is still learned via on-the-job, apprenticeship-like systems. Tens of millions of people are capable of learning new paths of work.

Blogger Ceasar March 09, 2017 11:54 AM  

Lol...Wipro was bidding on large IT implementation contract at my company. It was obvious reviewing their RFP and presentation they planned on outsourcing a lot while maintaining we would get the best and brightest from their company. As the Project Manager, I knew the requirements gathering was going to be critical and had zero trust they could perform as they advertised. Luckily, several project sponsors pushed them off the list from bad previous experiences as their earlier companies.

Blogger Joseph Gore Jr. March 09, 2017 11:55 AM  

The fact of the matter is that there's no mechanism for checking any of this. The govt doesn't come back after someone has been hired and say, "Okay let's see a pay stub to verify you're paying this imported worker what you said you would." They state on the visa application for that the pay will be $60k - $90k, but once the H1b is in the country, they can pay him/her $25k. This happens all the time.

Blogger Dirk Manly March 09, 2017 11:56 AM  

True. Every Indian & Pakistani I worked with couldn't program their way out of a wet paper bag. They rely almost entirely on cut & paste from "example usage" snippets. All of their declarations look like this:

{
window WindowType; /* window */
button ButtonType; /* button */
title TitleType; /* Title */

Anonymous BrerFox March 09, 2017 11:58 AM  

I worked with an engineering firm in the St Louis, got laid off in mid-2009. By the beginning of 2010 they had been consumed by Infotech. All but 2 of the American employees had been fired or left by the middle of that year.

The entire reason they openly admitted during negotiations was to use the company's connections to Boeing to get involved in the US defense industry.Conincidentally, Infotech was recognized as Boeing's supplier of the year in 2010. Nice feather in Infotechs cap, and no doubt built on the residual good will of my actual American coworkers. I'd dance in the streets if this H1B and general outsourcing nonsense ended.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd March 09, 2017 11:59 AM  

We need to require that H1B holders be paid at least triple the prevailing wage in the industry - after all, they are better than a million+ Americans in the industry. Also, there should be a 100% tax on the wages paid to the H1B holder.

The stated purpose of the visa is to let employers bring in unique talent not available in the US. The employers should be delighted to pay six times the prevailing wage to hire these unicorns.

Blogger David-2 March 09, 2017 12:00 PM  

Absolutely amazing this appeared in an IEEE magazine. For many years IEEE was a large force in _promoting_ H1B and other engineer-importing wage-depressing programs. This in spite of the fact that the IEEE is "the world's largest technical professional organization for the advancement of technology" - that is, it is a society of _engineers_ not _engineering companies_.

Wait, did I say years? I meant decades.

Blogger dc.sunsets March 09, 2017 12:03 PM  

@25 Most Deplorable,

Candy does Dallas, more like.

All my kids are in STEM fields at risk from the H1-B, including my son who manages foreign workers who themselves manage off-shore (India) resources. I want to see the program eliminated but I realize it will not be painless. There are costs to doing what is right.

I'm told that for every one H1-B in the USA there's five employed off-shore. It's an economy unto itself and disrupting it will have consequences.

My son's discussions with his H1-B colleagues back @16 digz's comment to the hilt. The program warps India's economic incentives like crazy (and we shouldn't be surprised that India, harboring a clannish populace, responds by gaming the system like crazy.)

Americans are far, far, far too trusting.

Blogger Ingot9455 March 09, 2017 12:04 PM  

But Wipro gives out free tote bags at Oracle World!!

Blogger Cail Corishev March 09, 2017 12:05 PM  

The notion that the USA is short of ANYTHING is simply ridiculous, most especially people.

Yes. And of course the next objection is usually that Americans are lazy or poorly trained. Aside from the obvious class warfare inherent in that statement -- even if it were true, should we just accept that? Should we just put all our geeks on welfare, along with the Americans who used to pick vegetables and slaughter animals, and say that's just how it is now?

It's ridiculous. Americans aren't too lazy or poorly trained to do what H-1Bs do; but if they were, the answer would be to kick them in the butt and set up training programs. Rising wages for the first time in decades would help with the "laziness" issue too. Not many people are drawn to a challenging field where you need to keep learning new languages every year just to keep keep paying the bills.

Blogger Some Dude March 09, 2017 12:09 PM  

No you're wrong Voxxy, the Peterson Cuck Institute says immigration is great for incomes.

Blogger dc.sunsets March 09, 2017 12:09 PM  

My engineer son works with (among others) Chinese engineers in the USA. He said they can speak idiomatic English but their language comprehension is zero. In one example he told a woman something, she repeated it back, agreed that she understood, and then acted like she'd never heard it. Rinse and repeat three times and he gave up.

There's a reason China had civilization for thousands of years longer than Western Civ, yet it was in the West that true science arose. Only a Commonweal Civilization can produce the marvels we take for granted.
https://thosewhocansee.blogspot.com/2015/09/why-re-colonization-commonweal.html

Blogger Some Dude March 09, 2017 12:12 PM  

I always asked myself - if you are a neoliberal acolyte and Friedman free market miracle masochist - surely the law of supply and demand applies to immigrants right?

But bizarrely, Heritage/Peterson/National Review/Americans for Prosperity/Wall Street Journal/Forbes argue immigration increases American incomes.

So we are left with the conclusion that these economic news sources are either economically illiterate or more prosaically sockpuppets for the plutocracy.

And you dear reader are left with the first glitch in your beloved free market 'conservative' beliefs.

There can be no market without intervention. Drop the autism.

Blogger Pteronarcyd March 09, 2017 12:13 PM  

The evil anti-Americanism of the industry executives who pursued this program and the politicians who delivered it is difficult to explain. I have no doubt that this policy not only inflicted severe harm on our society, but had to have stunted the growth of our tech industries.

I used to have an office with an interior wall that abutted an office space for a programming company staffed entirely by Indians -- a Microsoft subcontractor. In their room that abutted mine they had a ping pong table and there was a game going nearly constantly. My colleagues that visited my room always expressed amazement at how I could function with the noise, but I was able to tune it out. I always wondered how the subcontractors got any work done while playing ping pong. As someone who frequently works long hours including weekends, I never heard a ping pong game outside of normal working hours, so I assume they did not compensate for their play time by working longer.

Anonymous #8601 March 09, 2017 12:14 PM  

@16 digz - Thanks for those insightful comments. Please elaborate what you mean by "bad office culture" in India.

Blogger Cail Corishev March 09, 2017 12:17 PM  

An aspect of this that is rarely mentioned is how much standards have lowered in the industry. Outsiders don't see it, because the toys keep getting cooler. But the standards for being a capable IT guy are terrible.

I'm just a guy who's been doing Unix-y stuff for 20 years. I'm good at what I do, but I'm no one you've heard of. Yet, when I fix something for a new client, they're blown away by the smallest things. They've gotten used to the "have you tried rebooting it" level of tech support, and the idea that someone can come in, diagnose a problem, and fix it on the spot, blows their minds. It wasn't that way 10-20 years ago, but it is now, because the industry has filled up with people who don't know what they're doing.

It's kinda nice to have people think you're a wizard because you could diagnose a simple problem, but it's not good for the industry. I suspect we're paying a high stupid tax that may more than balance out the low wages.

Blogger Out of Nod March 09, 2017 12:18 PM  

Back in my college days, I remember seeing posters all over the Engineering Building showing statistics and the need for highly skilled technical workers. This gave my naive, younger self the impression that once I graduated college I would be able to jump into the industry and get a descent wage at the get go.

Boy was I deceived.

It took me 8 months post college and a move to a more tech centric city to get my first job, and even then it was at a comparable wage as the position I was leaving without the benefits. I learned that I was often going up against these H1-B workers, many with bad attitudes, a "make it work" mentality (without truly understanding the problem), and communication skills that may work in their country of origin but not so much in America. A few positions I have taken have found me correcting these peoples work. When these foreign workers get into management, they replace the American workers with more of their own...

This only scratches the surface of tech industry practices in America - and all this because it cuts costs.

Anonymous GunShowTrash March 09, 2017 12:18 PM  

Us old-time IEEE members can recall Irwin Feerst warning us about all this back in the late 1970s. It all came true, as everyone's testimony here shows.

Blogger James Dixon March 09, 2017 12:21 PM  

> For general coding or IT expertise, wages have stagnated or gone down.

Yep. When I was unemployed in 2015, the wages being offered were the same as when I last changed jobs in 1995.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents March 09, 2017 12:22 PM  

dc.sunsets
I'm told that for every one H1-B in the USA there's five employed off-shore. It's an economy unto itself and disrupting it will have consequences.

That circus off shore is not my circus, therefore those code monkies in Bangalore are not my code monkies. They're not writing critical path SCADA software, either, they are writing crapware.

Your jeweled baubles that you fear losing? Plastic. Fakes. Not real.

Blogger HalibetLector March 09, 2017 12:24 PM  

Cail Corishev wrote:the next objection is usually that Americans are lazy or poorly trained.

That's been disproved: http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/03/03/e-verify-cuts-jobless-rates-study/

Americans aren't lazy. Companies are actively discriminating against them.

Anonymous BBGKB March 09, 2017 12:24 PM  

Let Microsoft and Google move to India if they think they can get better coders there.

for some reason they can't get reliable electricity there.

I like this idea. One free ride for every H1B Even if the free ride is a vagina of color?

There's a reason China had civilization for thousands of years longer than Western Civ, yet it was in the West that true science arose.

Part of it was questioning the emperor was a death sentence, you couldn’t contradict any earlier discovery or science because it would be like saying the emperor was wrong. The Wright bros understood that the current math & science were wrong and built the world’s first wind tunnel. Nails that stand up like that get executed by emperors. Well more like a barn with 2 fans, the only way to win a middle school science fair with such a wind tunnel would be to be non Asian minority.

Blogger Cicatrizatic March 09, 2017 12:29 PM  

One of the worst hangovers from neoclassical theory is the notion of rising marginal costs. It is well known that many industries have declining marginal costs, and even the empirical studies on industrial and manufacturing firms show that they mostly experience constant or, in some cases, declining margin costs.

With tech, declining marginal costs is common. But declining marginal costs doesn't always translate into significant price savings for buyers. These firms face relatively constant demand at their prices, at least for a significant time. Firms like Infosys and Wipro have profit margins between 15-20%. Profit margins on most food, energy, and retail businesses, even the global Fortune 500 level, are 1-7%.

The wage-cutting of these tech firms may result in some minor price savings, but not much, and not enough to offset the long-term costs of displacing income to natives and development of native expertise.

Blogger Cail Corishev March 09, 2017 12:30 PM  

The evil anti-Americanism of the industry executives who pursued this program and the politicians who delivered it is difficult to explain.

And it's not just them; it's almost everyone. Post something on social media about immigrant labor taking away jobs, and all sorts of normal, middle-class Americans will declare (as if they know anything about it) that the Americans who lost those jobs deserved it because they were lazy or didn't learn enough.

I grew up on a farm and I work in IT -- two industries that have been savaged by immigration. My farmer family members don't see why someone should make a good wage just sitting at a keyboard. That's not hard work at all! If Americans won't do that for minimum wage, they're just being greedy and lazy. My IT friends don't see why people should get a good wage for picking vegetables. Why, any moron can do that! If Americans won't do it for minimum wage, they're just being greedy and lazy.

The Left has done a very good job of encouraging class warfare, not just between rich and poor, but also between different educational levels, different industries, different social circles, etc. Each class is too quick to slam the others, especially if they think a benefit to some other class might raise their own consumer prices a tick.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd March 09, 2017 12:32 PM  

BBGKB wrote: One free ride for every H1B Even if the free ride is a vagina of color?

Better if it's someone with actual potential, rather than an affirmative action feel-good place holder, but if it's an American vagina of color, that's better than a foreign H1B.

Americans first, and even vaginas of color need to get preference over foreigners, if they are American.

Anonymous TLM March 09, 2017 12:32 PM  

Not a tech guy at all, but can't stand these vermin Hindus in America aesthetically & physically stinking up the gym, grocery stores, Costco, etc. They are locusts that are here to reap and rob what belongs to the citizens of the US. And since they are here can somebody please teach these a**holes how to maintain a yard, drive, and bring their f*cking trash can in from the curb after pick-up on garbage day.

And anyone that tries to use the racism card with supporting this pro-Indian BS is an utter fool and should be smacked down in micro seconds. Ask Jugdesh how much of his salary he is sending back to India to help the Dalits. These people are more racist with their own kind than we'll ever be.

It has baffled me as to why displaced American IT workers haven't organized any type of national protest, or kicked the sh*t out of some these H1-Bs to send a message to GTFO. When I was a boy I remember the truckers striking across the nation and playing some lethal hardball with scab drivers. Not a union guy either, but at least those truckers put up a fight.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer March 09, 2017 12:41 PM  

dc.sunsets wrote:My engineer son works with (among others) Chinese engineers in the USA. He said they can speak idiomatic English but their language comprehension is zero. In one example he told a woman something, she repeated it back, agreed that she understood, and then acted like she'd never heard it. Rinse and repeat three times and he gave up.

There's a reason China had civilization for thousands of years longer than Western Civ, yet it was in the West that true science arose. Only a Commonweal Civilization can produce the marvels we take for granted.



This has been my experience with the Chinese as well. I suspect that they do actually understand because these "mis-communications" tend to revolve around something that is hard work. Sometimes it might be that they legitimately don't understand but it seems like more often than not they just don't want to do the work.

Anonymous Grayman March 09, 2017 12:43 PM  

Another pleasure of working with 1st and second generation Indians is that the boss is always right. And once they are the boss, heaven help you if you publicly disagree with them. Its an Indian cultural trait that runs rampant when they bring it here. It makes getting constructive feedback almost impossible and makes collaboration difficult at best. And more often then not their ethics consist of whatever makes them and their boss look best.

Anonymous #8601 March 09, 2017 12:46 PM  

kicked the sh*t out of some these H1-Bs

Weren't a couple just shot last week?

Blogger Cail Corishev March 09, 2017 12:46 PM  

It has baffled me as to why displaced American IT workers haven't organized any type of national protest,

It's a personality thing. Coders like meetings and activism about as much as....well, about as much as girls like coding.

There have been attempts to unionize IT workers over the years, but they've never gone anywhere. Honestly, even though I can see how it would help, the idea makes me a little ill. Even voluntary certification programs (to allow capable people to pass tests and get certified in their fields of expertise) are mostly ignored, except for a few run by heavyweights like Microsoft and Cisco.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer March 09, 2017 12:47 PM  

Looking Glass wrote:@14 Sadly, the answer is a lot more simple. We have lots of MBAs. They need to prove their worth. If you outsource or hire H1Bs, your revenue stays the same but profit margin increases, thus you get a bonus.

We have a lot of stupid people with MBAs and jobs at major companies. They make stupid decisions that more than 15 minutes of thought would show doesn't work. With the exception of *some* manufacturing, outsourcing has been a pretty hefty failure. And the quality of H1Bs is almost always a net-negative, but stupid MBAs can't understand that.

@16 Nothing hypocritical about using a system, understanding it properly, then pointing out it's supremely bad for everyone involved. Self-interest and lack of understanding are fine, it's when you get to the other side and lack the ability to accept the reality of what has taken place that's hypocritical.


This is very true. The worst part is MBAs are a self replicating virus in an organization. Once they get in, they start making it a requirement that new hires have MBAs.

The vast majority of them spend their time trying to change your company into the company they just left. The most angering part is no one else in executive management asks "Why did you leave your last company if things were going so well there. There has to be a reason you left." Instead they throw their support behind costly initiatives that tend not to work out because your company's strengths are not the same as other companies strengths. It also creates a situation where every part of your company is trying to behave like a different company rather than acting together towards a common goal.

Anonymous dystonia March 09, 2017 12:51 PM  

For all intents and purposes, MSFT is an Indian company these days. A (White British) guy I used to work with switched jobs to MSFT Research UK, and then went over to Seattle on secondment. After he came back, we met up and his summary of the MSFT HQ was that whereas in the UK you expect a diverse workforce on the shop floor, the upper layers will be almost all locals, but MSFT was quite the reverse, with American engineers only in junior grades, for the most part, and the upper levels Indian.

Anonymous Grayman March 09, 2017 12:53 PM  

Chinese

The difference with Chinese from my experience is that once you make it clear to them that they will be held responsible for the outcome of the task they bust their hump. They don't tend to work creatively or free form problem solve well, but will follow a proscribed solution to the T. But the first thing you have to do is establish yourself as "alpha" with them or else you dont get jack out of them.

Blogger Amigo March 09, 2017 12:55 PM  

Went to UCLA's economic forecast yesterday. The call was for more immigration, more H1B visas, more low income housing, who will pick the crops, etc.

Blogger Jose March 09, 2017 12:55 PM  

Rather, Not wrote:'Why do you hate old people and social security?'

Would you like the list in chronologic, alphabetical, or by priority order?

Anonymous vfm #0202 March 09, 2017 12:57 PM  

It's significant that IEEE, traditionally ankle-grabbers, have decided "this is the hill, now is the time". MAGA!

Anonymous Grayman March 09, 2017 12:58 PM  

59 dystonia

Indian mafia,

once you have a few indians working together they quickly cooperate to bring in more indians, from handing out resumes of friends and family to trying to setup non-indian workers to be fired. I've seen it at all levels from the manufacturing floor to senior management. Its rife in biotech.
I got fed up with one company I was at and left. My management role was back-filled with an indian and within 6 months half of the group reporting to that position was replaced with indians as well.

Blogger Shimshon March 09, 2017 1:02 PM  

@43 Cail, regarding the decline in quality, they don't even teach Assembler at my alma mater any more. It was a formerly required course for any CS degree. Now, it's not even available as an option. I suspect this is nearly universal. Even major CS programs are converged in many ways (gotta lean in for all those women) and are just glorified Java schools now.

There's been some recent grumbling in Israel to open up tech jobs a la H1B.

http://www.globes.co.il/en/article-israeli-high-tech-cos-outsource-work-abroad-1001170921

The focus is more on the FSU countries though. Culturally, it's a better fit, and easier to manage, especially with all the "Russians" (regardless of actual country of origin) here. They seem to do decent work too. Eastern Europe's talent pool seems deeper than India's.

I personally dealt with a guy here managing a team of about thirty (he wouldn't say exactly where, but FSU). I handed off work I was doing for a small family web business to him because they needed help with mobile (which I had no experience with) and he was insanely cheap. He offered to subcontract the job, mark it up, and claim it as my own work. I declined. This was a small business, not some megacorp.

To convert a browser-only site to fully responsive (mobile, tablet, etc), he quoted 50 hours of work for $800. I think it ended up being more, but not a lot more, if you get my drift. I could have made a LOT of money, for almost no work. He was thorough, his quote was based on a complete examination of the site. And he was trustworthy.

Anonymous #8601 March 09, 2017 1:03 PM  

Why do Indians dominate the spelling bee championships?

Blogger Aeroschmidt March 09, 2017 1:04 PM  

If someone is dumb enough to want a native vagina of color, that's better than a H1B vagina of color. Keeps them off welfare.

Anonymous CloseHauled March 09, 2017 1:06 PM  

The senior level Indian engineers are the ones with a red dot on their forehead.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents March 09, 2017 1:07 PM  

@64 Grayman
once you have a few indians working together they quickly cooperate to bring in more indians

Tribal people continue to be tribal even when standing on Magic Dirt? G'waan, get outa here, you rayciss!

Anonymous Rather, Not March 09, 2017 1:09 PM  

Jose, since you are trying to dialectic my (admittedly weak) rhetoric, and it is perfectly understandable why someone named Jose would prefer foreigners to elderly Americans, but just for you, why should Americans prefer foreigners over their own interests, as well as that of their more elderly neighbors and community stability? Alphabetically please.

Blogger Shimshon March 09, 2017 1:16 PM  

I was wrong. UCSD does have a course on it assembly language still. They just changed the name to make it more fancy.

CSE 30: Computer Organization and Systems Programming

It's also not 100% assembly, as CSE 70 was. But I stand corrected here.

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr March 09, 2017 1:17 PM  

If I were working software, I would not come near any position that didn't require a security clearance. H1B imports can't get those.

Blogger praetorian March 09, 2017 1:18 PM  

They all have to go back.

America didn't need them during the silicon revolution, we don't need them now.

They have to go back. I'm sorry, but they have to go.

Blogger Shimshon March 09, 2017 1:19 PM  

Correction. Regarding the cheap consultant I mentioned. He offered that I could put the work out as my own. He knew I could get a lot of money for it, and didn't mind such an arrangement.

Blogger David-2 March 09, 2017 1:20 PM  

@45 GunShowTrash - yes, exactly, I was reading Feerst back then and wondering why he was ostracized from polite society.

Anonymous TLM March 09, 2017 1:21 PM  

@ #8601

Why do Indians dominate the spelling bee championships?

Because their Aghori diet consists of brain-food. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4296404/CNN-presenter-Reza-Aslan-eats-HUMAN-BRAIN.htmlI

Anonymous Grayman March 09, 2017 1:22 PM  

praetorian wrote:They all have to go back.

America didn't need them during the silicon revolution, we don't need them now.

They have to go back. I'm sorry, but they have to go.


How about we trade them with South Africa for the remaining boers?

Blogger Rory Porth March 09, 2017 1:23 PM  

I've worked with some Tata folks.... they certainly aren't better coders out there.... In fact worse....

Blogger Sheila4g March 09, 2017 1:29 PM  

And at Breitbart I got attacked for criticizing "innocent Hindus" who are married to Whites and just want to advise Westerners on how rampant immigration of non-Hindus is ruining their countries.

I have no connection to the industry (2 brothers in law work in the field but are high up enough they've had no employment/salary problems). A close friend's husband suffers daily doing IT work for globalist Indian supremacist Nehi's Pepsico. And my husband's employer recently fired their IT head (gay guy) for repeated lying about complications and problems with a planned switchover from one software system to another, that the guys working with the system don't want to happen in the first place. No H-1Bs involved that I'm aware, but a few Chinese, women, gays - which is highly ironic because the company is heavily White and the handful of guys who earn the money that support the rest of them are all White.

Anonymous JC NRA March 09, 2017 1:30 PM  

dc.sunsets:
I'm told that for every one H1-B in the USA there's five employed off-shore.
-----
Absolutely - it's a total shit show. There's not even a real cost savings from what I'm seeing. You pay 1-2 H1B's here higher wages than they're worth, and they have a team of 4-5 off-shore guys. They also slip in billing for "shadow engineers" watching the folks overseas, so they can back-fill due to the horrible turnover (yes, they take your secrets with them). Then, factor in that you've got a higher level American manager supervising this shit show, sinking half his time.

Versus the alternative of hiring two Americans to do better work, faster, and a lot cheaper.

These companies aren't even saving money in the long term - it's smoke and mirrors. Sticking to "the Narrative" ...

Blogger Jack Ward March 09, 2017 1:30 PM  

Related: DACA. I rarely listen to Beck anymore; happened to this AM. He claimed that Trump with encouragement from Bannon, has reneged on his promise to end DACA. Now, I certainly don't trust Beck for accuracy, but, if true, this generates, for me, some cracks in the GE veneer. Here, we are asked to be patient. OK, fine. Maybe that is still good advice. I sure hope so. But, at what point do we decide that, maybe, just maybe, we have been had? Lord, I hope not.

Blogger Nate March 09, 2017 1:30 PM  

You have to go home now

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Deplorable Cents March 09, 2017 1:31 PM  

@31 Dirk Manly
The best part of that pseudo code? It's almost always copied from someone else.

Open question:

How many people ever saw cheating by Indian students either in undergraduate or grad school? Not just 'look at the next student's test', but overt code stealing, copying entire problem solutions, etc. defined as "working in a group".

Blogger Nate March 09, 2017 1:31 PM  

the real issue with ditching the visa programs in the medical field. there is a huge doctor shortage that is only getting worse as millennials proved unwilling and incapable of making the sacrifices necessary to become doctors.

Blogger Cail Corishev March 09, 2017 1:34 PM  

Shimson, I know what you mean. I'm self-taught, so I thought I could use some training on the theoretical side of CS. I found videos of a CS107 class that Princeton made available at least 8 years ago, which includes C and assembly, plus a bit of Lisp. A good foundation, I'd say, and it helped me brush up on some things. Taught by a white guy, surprisingly enough. Looking at the syllabus today, it looks like they've taken out the assembler stuff, but expanded the C part, so it doesn't look too dumbed down.

But CS106A, the entry level programming class, is a joke. Taught by a woman (of course), using Java (of course), it's intended for people who barely know how to turn a computer on. Why would you be in the CS program at Stanford if you're not more advanced than that? That's like going to college to get a degree in French and not already knowing what "voila" means. I couldn't make it through the first video anyway, because she kept laughing at the end of everything she said.

Anonymous #8601 March 09, 2017 1:35 PM  

@76 TLM - and here I thought Hindus were vegetarian!

Canada doesn't have the H1B problem but they still have a serious Indian problem as well. Not just in IT but finance. Once the Indians take over finance, they will have the country.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan March 09, 2017 1:37 PM  

Globalism is the new word for colonialism, they have to leave. You can email them if you miss them.

Anonymous Athor Pel March 09, 2017 1:37 PM  

"31. Blogger Dirk Manly March 09, 2017 11:56 AM
True. Every Indian & Pakistani I worked with couldn't program their way out of a wet paper bag. They rely almost entirely on cut & paste from "example usage" snippets. ..."



Hey man, don't bash code reuse. We're supposed to learn by using preexisting code. Standing on the shoulders of giants and what not.

But I know what you're getting at.

The stack exchange sites I read have many topics being driven by south asians wanting to be fed the answer to their problem. After seeing enough of them their agenda became obvious, they weren't after real understanding or learning, they just wanted the magic words.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents March 09, 2017 1:40 PM  

@84 Nate
Next town over has a med school, each year's class of a couple hundred is full with a wait list in the thousands. 90% of the students are millennials. The same is true across the country. You're wrong.

The real problem is, half or more of the local medical students are women, and while they are willing to be good schoolgirls to become doctors, most want to do pediatrics or OB / GYN or family. Plus they won't work the hours really needed. The average heart surgeon is probably in his 50's, and yes, that's his 50's. It's probably the same for orthopedic surgeon, gastrointestinal, whatever.

Higher pressure medical specialities are overwhelmingly male because that's what men do, and men are getting crowded out of medical school by the girl doctor-wannabes.

As long as the medical schools are stuffed with women, there will be a doctor shortage. Because women ruin everything.

Anonymous krymneth March 09, 2017 1:40 PM  

IT Unions, despite not existing yet, are already converged. Starting one up and expecting them to prevent H1Bs would be the height of foolishness. They'd fight for more H1Bs, as long as they have to be mandatory union members, either de jure or de facto.

Post-US split up, the red portions of the country might be able to meaningfully form a useful IT union, but right now it is simply a fact that industry is dominated by blue, so handing them any additional power is simply handing that power to progressives.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer March 09, 2017 1:40 PM  

Nate wrote:the real issue with ditching the visa programs in the medical field. there is a huge doctor shortage that is only getting worse as millennials proved unwilling and incapable of making the sacrifices necessary to become doctors.

Kind of a tough choice though. It comes down to the question "is no doctor worse than a witch doctor?"

Blogger Mountain Man March 09, 2017 1:41 PM  

And the Libertardians at the Playdo Institute call this “progress”..and the “free market” at work.

Blogger Nate March 09, 2017 1:47 PM  

"Kind of a tough choice though. It comes down to the question "is no doctor worse than a witch doctor?"

For the most part they are good doctors. so yeah. they are better than no doctors.

of course the best option would have been to not raise a whole generation of useless little shits to lazy and weak to actually do the jobs we really need done.

Blogger Mountain Man March 09, 2017 1:47 PM  

"there is a huge doctor shortage that is only getting worse as millennials proved unwilling and incapable of making the sacrifices necessary to become doctors.”

What is the incentive. Take on 6 figures of debt, to work in an absolutely screwed up system for barely six figure pay. The health care system is beyond fucked up and quickly burns out most who work within it. I’ve personally seen it both with my wife and a brother ..doctors and specialists in their field.
To me the Millennials seem rather prescient.

Blogger tz March 09, 2017 1:49 PM  

Molyneux had a vid last week, excellent

Lets say ta-ta to Tata.

It won't destroy the tech industry, but they will have to deal with the brogrammers and EEOC. There are lots of smart people in flyover.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 09, 2017 1:49 PM  

James Dixon wrote:Yep. When I was unemployed in 2015, the wages being offered were the same as when I last changed jobs in 1995.
I'm unemployed right now, and salaries have gone down. I got laid off by the French company that bought out my American company and shipped my job to India.
And yes, if you try to talk to people about the problem, you will immediately be accused of incompetence, laziness, and inadequacy. It's happened to me on this forum.

#8601 wrote:Why do Indians dominate the spelling bee championships?
Because Mommy and Daddy will thrash them if they don't do well.

The cultural problem with Indians are legion. The biggest is that in India, your worth as a person is dependent on your birth. A typical Indian work group will have 5 guys who are there because of their family connections, Brahman status, and even birth order, and 3 guys and 2 women who actually do all the productive work. And the Brahmans are generally arrogant pigs, who even if they are competent to do the work, view it as beneath them. They are continually playing dominance games, and look down on literally everyone, especially Americans.
Indians are the major reason offshoring to India is generally a failure.

Blogger Nate March 09, 2017 1:51 PM  

"What is the incentive. Take on 6 figures of debt, to work in an absolutely screwed up system for barely six figure pay"

if we're talking about pediatrics or family medicine you have a point.

If we're talking about surgury or another specialty the economics still make tons of sense.

You're talking about borrowing 200k to make 500k a year. or if you go the radiology route... 800k a year.

borrowing up to one year's salary shouldn't be a big deal. Borrowing several times a years salary.. that is the problem. the medical field is still mostly on the right side of that.

But again.. with general practitioners and such.. you're right. they go bankrupt every day.

Blogger Buybuydandavis March 09, 2017 1:51 PM  

Pimps should simply be ineligible for H1-Bs.

If Google needs H1Bs, let them hire them themselves.

Blogger tz March 09, 2017 1:52 PM  

@85 2005 - perils of java school

Blogger tz March 09, 2017 1:54 PM  

@97 the AMA limits the number of schools and doctors. Heavily regulated, a NP or PA can do most.

Anonymous FelixKH March 09, 2017 2:00 PM  

Have you slow, ideologically instrumentalizing creeps considered registering on Quora? I'm sure you guys would get along fine.

Blogger Cail Corishev March 09, 2017 2:00 PM  

Doctors have also been used as scapegoats for the high cost of medicine, even though they have little or no control over what their care costs. Too many people now see them as state-regulated functionaries who follow regulatory manuals that say you give this treatment for that set of symptoms. Good doctors do far more than that, of course, but that's how many have come to see them. It's part of the class warfare, making people look down on what was once a highly respected profession. No surprise fewer young people want to enter it.

Anonymous CloseHauled March 09, 2017 2:11 PM  

"And the Brahmans are generally arrogant pigs, who even if they are competent to do the work, view it as beneath them. They are continually playing dominance games, and look down on literally everyone, especially Americans.
Indians are the major reason offshoring to India is generally a failure."

Sounds like a case of too many chiefs and not enough indians.

Blogger VFM #7634 March 09, 2017 2:12 PM  

Doctors have also been used as scapegoats for the high cost of medicine, even though they have little or no control over what their care costs.

@102 Cail Corishev
They do have to pay astronomical malpractice insurance premiums, which essentially subsidizes the mistakes of incompetent doctors out of the hides of competent ones. So guess what happens? Doctors figure that since they're penalized anyway no matter how competent they are, they let themselves screw up more often.

I suspect that one of the major drivers of health insurance is so people who don't give a shit about their bodies (fat people, queers, etc., who skew Democrat) force healthy people to pay for their mistakes.

Anonymous CloseHauled March 09, 2017 2:18 PM  

@72 "If I were working software, I would not come near any position that didn't require a security clearance. H1B imports can't get those."

Mostly correct. Still high paying contracts requiring clearance (unfortunately I let mine expire by not taking another contract that required a clearance within 3 years).

When I was working at Lockheed Tactical Aircraft Systems in the flight controls R&D group they had foreigners there. I could never figure out how a Chinese guy (may have been Taiwanese) who accent was working in a Tempest class building next to me.

Blogger VD March 09, 2017 2:21 PM  

For all intents and purposes, MSFT is an Indian company these days

Of course they are. That was a given once an Indian started running it. It's what they do.

Blogger SmockMan March 09, 2017 2:29 PM  

It can't end fast enough.

Blogger Jed Mask March 09, 2017 2:29 PM  

"It's time for the God-Emperor to shut the program down entirely."

Say "The Donald" or say "President Trump", "Mr.Trump" or some other "name".

Enough with the "nickname idolatry" of a mere mortal man Mr. Vox. Amen.

~ Bro. Jed

Anonymous Looking Glass March 09, 2017 2:30 PM  

On the Doctor issue, it's a few things:

1) the AMA is evil and should be sued out of existence.
2) 50/50 Gender split requirement. At the IQ/Constitution level required, the natural spread is about 80% Men / 20% Women for the skills a doctor needs.
3) We actively discriminate against White Men entering the field.

Like most things in the current economy, we pay a lot of money to keep the most competent away from the fields they're needed in.

Anonymous CloseHauled March 09, 2017 2:33 PM  

How many of you get called non-stop by Indian recruiters with low ball contract rates?

There used to be young hot American females doing the recruiting.

The most frustrating thing is they will call you about a job for a city that is 1000 miles from were you live. I hang up on them soon as I hear the accent.


Blogger bob kek mando ( Death To The Boor-geois, Keks To The Lol-etariat ) March 09, 2017 2:38 PM  

108. Jed Mask March 09, 2017 2:29 PM
Enough with the




why don't you get busy critiquing that faggot Paul Ryan over the miserable excuse for ObamaCare continuation that he has presented as a bill to Congress?

is it because you ALSO love raping children?

Blogger Mountain Man March 09, 2017 2:41 PM  

Read this the other day:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-03-08/india-no-toilets-well-send-rockets-space

No wonder they want to leave. What a hell-hole.
My wife is friends with an Indian woman who is an OT. She’s here in the states on a Visa/Green Card. Unmarried, very nice and sweet but all the poor gal does is support her entire family back home in India. She works like a dog, has no life and outside of her immediate expenses, her entire paycheck is remitted back to her mom/dad/sisters/aunts/uncles/nieces/nephews back home. This is what globalism has led to.

Anonymous Bowman March 09, 2017 2:44 PM  

Let Microsoft and Google move to India if they think they can get better coders there.

Yes that's what classical liberal / free traders don't get.

Their solutions make the world more centralized, and consequently more fragile & more corrupt.

We need a market place. We need independent actors. We need a market place for force. We need Nations.

Blogger Cail Corishev March 09, 2017 2:45 PM  

@110, I don't get calls, but I get several emails a day from outsourcing companies offering various services. Sometimes they try to be tricky, claiming they're following up on a previous contact, or apologizing for not getting back to me sooner.

The one thing none of them ever seem to think of is hiring someone with good English skills to write their opening patter, so it's not instantly recognizable for what it is. Just as well, I guess.

Anonymous Maximo Macaroni March 09, 2017 2:55 PM  

Worked for a large state government bureaucracy. When I got to the headquarters, I was amazed to see hundreds of Indian workers in the finance section. They were H1Bs hired by state contractors. They all lived together in large groups, shared cars and could hardly communicate in English.
This when unemployment was running high for Americans trying to get started. It could all be ended by the governor overnight.

And I'm sure half the money they made went back to Bangalore. So much for the positive economic effect of immigration.

Blogger Orville March 09, 2017 2:58 PM  

@43 They've gotten used to the "have you tried rebooting it" level of tech support, and the idea that someone can come in, diagnose a problem, and fix it on the spot, blows their minds.

Cail just triggered me! The tier 1 level of help desk support for the branch of governmental hell I work in has a standard answer to all callers..."Did you reset your browser and clear cookies and cache?" They don't even fucking know what that means. They are just burger flippers reading from a script.

Anonymous Überdeplorable Psychedelic Cat Hair March 09, 2017 2:59 PM  

Nearly my entire family is medical: orthopaedic, optho, even an anastesiolgist. The AMA as they'll attest is full of Communists. Anyone who goes into paediatric care is generally Commie too. The ortho, my dad, was sued malpractice due to patient taking a 3rd opinion and sued him despite him saying don't walk on your leg. He's been on 7 malpractice boards only seen 3 cases thereof. H1B delenda est.

Anonymous CloseHauled March 09, 2017 3:01 PM  

@114 Cail

My email gets hammered too. I have MS in mechanical engineering but I've worked as SW engineer for 17 years. They will email me for engineering (or anything they think sounds like engineering) and software. This position is 1000 miles from where I live.

The rates these Indian (or whatever they are) are willing to pay is usually $10-30/hr less than middleman going rates.

Mohit, get a freaking map instead of blasting emails out to every person in every corner of US:

"Hi,

This is Mohit from XXXXXX [edited out]. I have urgent requirement for the positions mention below,
Please send your updated copy of resume if interested for this position.
Reply me with your confirmation, waiting for the positive reply


Job Specification:-

Role :- Validation Engineers
Location :- Livonia, MI
Start Date :- ASAP
Duration :- 12 months

Job Description:-
Primary Skills:
CAN
Embedded Test
Automotive
"

Anonymous One Deplorable DT March 09, 2017 3:02 PM  

That's how you kill high tech in America.

Absolutely. I've told every relative and friend who has asked that they would be absolute fools to get a degree that has anything to do with software engineering or IT. I think it was 15 or 20 years ago that I read a piece by Philip Greenspun of MIT that America no longer values its STEM graduates, and any smart American student should go into finance, law, or medicine.

@1 - I've been personally shafted by this outrage for the last 14 yesrs, driving me into near poverty.

I've managed to survive as a contract programmer, but the past couple of years have been lean, and it's looking more and more like I find full time salaried work or I'm in real trouble. Of course, if it was that easy to find full time I wouldn't be contract.

This past year I've suffered rather severe bouts of depression because of it.

Anonymous RA March 09, 2017 3:12 PM  

Becoming a doctor isn't the money printing machine it used to be. Cousin who is a doctor now in his 50's explained this to me a few years ago. Start with undergrad student debt which accumulates with interest while borrowing well into the six figures to get through medical school. $250k is typical and that doesn't include undergrad debt. Then it's usually 2 to 4 years of residency at salaries that don't make much dent in that debt before getting into a practice. But cannot afford to buy one's own practice and set up shop like that due to debt already accumulated. Not to mention difficult to buy a house. So they get jobs in hospitals and clinics because that's all that's open to them. Further, malpractice insurance comes out of their compensation and that can run toward $100k for surgeons. Even GP's have $60-$80k malpractice premiums to pay. That's a BMW out of their paychecks every year. Even with the higher pay available to difficult specialties, a typical doctor will be 40 or close to it before all debt is paid off and one might be able to enjoy the fruits of their labors over the preceding 20 years. If millenials want to avoid slaving away for that long to get that payoff, my cousin doesn't blame them. On top of that, the profession is very heavily regulated and very tilted toward the hospitals to the point where doctors have been forced to abandon private self-only practices and either band together or join hospitals to share the overhead of compliance.

On the personal front, there isn't much that I actually hate, hatred is corrosive. But I have to admit I hate the H1-B program. I was once one of the best sysadmins around, my greatest skill wasn't any particular methodology, it was the ability to troubleshoot literally anything that ran in a data center. Saved my companies millions. Got laid off in 2009 and took some time off. Then started trying to return in 2011 and found my way blocked because my accomplishments were strictly history, no one wanted to hire an older guy making anywhere close to what I used to make. After 3 years of butting my head against that wall, I made the decision to move into a technical field that can't be outsourced. It was hard, dang hard at my age, but it was necessary in order to stop tapping my retirement. I am contract only, I don't quite make what I used to but at least I don't have to touch my IRA anymore.

Those big boys want to talk about shortage? Fuck them. There are 94 million Americans not in the workforce. Gonna bet some of them could do the work H1-B's are doing now. I know I can...

They have to go back.

Blogger Guitar Man March 09, 2017 3:14 PM  

Closehauled,

I'm getting a dozen of those days. Usually for some low level position that I did years ago when I was getting started in my career, and something that is over a thousand miles away. If a recruiter has an Indian name, I immediately ignore the message.

Anonymous CloseHauled March 09, 2017 3:16 PM  

@119 "I've managed to survive as a contract programmer, but the past couple of years have been lean, and it's looking more and more like I find full time salaried work or I'm in real trouble. Of course, if it was that easy to find full time I wouldn't be contract."

What part of the country do you live? Where I live (now AZ) the recruiters host happy hours and bug the shit out of you because all of the open positions.

I'd rather work contract (1099) than direct. But I don't have kids so health care costs are no biggy.

We need more ilk moving to AZ to counter balance all the friggin Californians and Minnesotans moving here.

Blogger Mountain Man March 09, 2017 3:36 PM  

@119
I just said a prayer for you..that God might meet your immediate needs, present to you a clear path all while keeping your spirits up. When you’re self employed and work is scarce, it can cause a deep cirrhosis of the sprit...along with a lot of anxiety.

Blogger Mountain Man March 09, 2017 3:38 PM  

"I suspect that one of the major drivers of health insurance is so people who don't give a shit about their bodies (fat people, queers, etc., who skew Democrat) force healthy people to pay for their mistakes.”

Bingo !

Anonymous One Deplorable DT March 09, 2017 3:39 PM  

@122 - Southern California. But I would be willing to move if that's what it takes.

Who do I contact?

Anonymous One Deplorable DT March 09, 2017 3:40 PM  

@123 - thank you!

Anonymous basementhomebrewer March 09, 2017 3:45 PM  

CloseHauled wrote:@119 "I've managed to survive as a contract programmer, but the past couple of years have been lean, and it's looking more and more like I find full time salaried work or I'm in real trouble. Of course, if it was that easy to find full time I wouldn't be contract."

What part of the country do you live? Where I live (now AZ) the recruiters host happy hours and bug the shit out of you because all of the open positions.

I'd rather work contract (1099) than direct. But I don't have kids so health care costs are no biggy.

We need more ilk moving to AZ to counter balance all the friggin Californians and Minnesotans moving here.



Luckily some of the H1-B and outsourcing trend has been running backwards in recent years. Some, not a large number, but some employers are figuring out that they were better off with American employees even if they do command higher salaries.

Some have finally figured out "we can't afford to pay an American to do it once but somehow we can afford to pay an Indian to do it 4 times" doesn't make sense.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 09, 2017 3:47 PM  

RA wrote:After 3 years of butting my head against that wall, I made the decision to move into a technical field that can't be outsourced.
What did you move to? I'm a middle aged Unix admin, 4 months out of work, and losing marketability every day.

Anonymous CloseHauled March 09, 2017 3:50 PM  

@125. One Deplorable DT

I'd get on dice.com to see what is available.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 March 09, 2017 3:52 PM  

The initial failure of Healthcare.gov was related to this problem. More than likely, the company who won the half a billion dollar contract outsourced the development to a foreign company for pennies on the dollar.

Then when the website fell apart, it was largely because outsourced developers tend to lack creativity and ingenuity that many American workers have.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 March 09, 2017 3:54 PM  

A new trend I've seen as of late is that recruiters are more and more being outsourced. And you can be damn sure that none of them will support white people.

Anonymous RA March 09, 2017 3:56 PM  

@124. Denninger has often had some very pointed remarks along those lines. His last post was about diabetics and their drain on the system was totally on the mark.

Blogger Gapeseed March 09, 2017 3:58 PM  

There is a dirty little secret in law that nobody really talk about - the H1B lawyers. Slaving away in the bowels of New York law firms are document review contract attorneys. There are thousands of them all over Manhattan performing first level document review, which essentially is the first-pass filter in determining which documents in universes of potentially millions of documents are relevant or privileged in large litigation matters.

It is common knowledge that there are too many lawyers in the United States, and that law schools churn out far too many law school graduates for the work available. The document review work used to be performed by young associates, whose ranks are much thinner now than during the Legal Salad Days of the 80s. But the work is there, and you would think that recent graduates would fall into this kind of work. But when you look at these document review caserooms, a huge percentage of the work is performed by immigrant attorneys, many from Africa and the Caribbean. To be fair, I have met some very bright African and Caribbean attorneys, but the point is this - there are thousands of young American attorneys with six-figure debt. You would think that the last thing New York needs are more attorneys, and yet, we import them by the thousands while American law grads sit idle, daydreaming about tuition forgiveness. And you would think that law schools would be lobbying to restrict these attorney visas so that their graduates could get a shot at document review jobs. You would think all of these things, and yet, you would be wrong.

Anonymous CloseHauled March 09, 2017 4:02 PM  

@131 "A new trend I've seen as of late is that recruiters are more and more being outsourced. And you can be damn sure that none of them will support white people."

There will be the Indian rate and then the white man's rate.

I hang up on any Indian recruiter calling me and ignore any email they send me.

I've asked a couple female recruiters I know if they are aware of all the Indians moving into recruiting. This was over a year ago but they were unaware and surprised to hear my anecdotes.

These Indian recruiters would only be able to get the most desperate of engineers at the rates they advertise.




Anonymous RA March 09, 2017 4:05 PM  

@128 Prefer not to say. I will only say that it is a trade and it is outside work in all kinds of weather. Not for wimps or out of shape, have to be healthy. Hard to get training. I had a connection who got me inside, but first year was brutal, there were several times that I wanted to quit, but I stuck it out and am glad I did. But now that someone above mentioned AZ, I may have to check that out, haha.

Anonymous One Deplorable DT March 09, 2017 4:13 PM  

@130 - years ago I helped a small business port a Windows application to Mac OS X. When I did the project, I did it such that the code base could be used cross platform (Mac/Win) with reasonable effort, should my client ever decide to do so in the future.

They were happy, the Mac version sold well, but I didn't get much more work from them. Their in-house programmers didn't know Mac well enough to do the port, but were good enough to manage the code base once done.

Fast forward about 7 years. I get a call. In the interim the business had moved to outsourcing. They had paid well into six figures to an Indian team...in India...to modernize their Windows code base. What they got back was a .NET project that wouldn't compile much less run. And who do you sue in India?

"Uh...how much would it cost to make the Mac code base fully cross platform?"

I didn't bill them nearly as much as India because A) I was honest about the time required, and B) I thought about my client's future needs years earlier.

And what's my reward?

Some of the Indians who screwed that business are probably here in America now. With full time salaried positions courtesy of my government's H1B Visa program.

Blogger Student in Blue March 09, 2017 4:19 PM  

@108 Jed Mask
Enough with the "nickname idolatry" of a mere mortal man Mr. Vox. Amen.

Given that you've commented for a while without setting off my troll radar, I'll respond earnestly. Vox has already explained why he uses that name. And it is not due to idolatry, so please stop being concerned about nothing.

Anonymous RA March 09, 2017 4:19 PM  

@134, ex-wife is in IT. She is a naturalized east Asian who hates Indians with white hot anger as she has had to compete with them for many years now. She had remarked many times before about how cliquish Indians are, how Indian managers often won't hire anyone but other Indians, how Indian co-workers will work together to actively sabotage their non-Indian colleagues, etc. She warmed up to Trump right away, very gung ho for him, going so far as to dismiss the pussy grabbing remarks by saying there have always been women who want to be grabbed by powerful men and she understood that dynamic. Plus the anti-illegal immigration stance appealed to her. "I came in legally, learned English and assimilated without any handouts, why can't they?"

Was talking with her recently and she dropped another bombshell on me: she found out recently that many Indian recruiters aren't in the US at all, they actually work in India and get themselves a US phone number along with usually fake address. Some friend of theirs forms a local LLC behind which these virtual recruiters hide. She says no wonder they're bombarding everyone, just getting one referral pays off in big money relative to India living standards. So they don't care about failure rates, they just have to get one so they'll accumulate and accumulate and ... Damn parasites is all I could say to that one. Like you, she won't talk to them if she can help it, only wants to deal with American recruiters. Some have told her it is getting tougher to compete against Indian recruiters.

Anonymous CloseHauled March 09, 2017 4:22 PM  

@119 One Deplorable DT
@120 RA

Just messaged a recruiter.

C#/.NET is very hot here in AZ

Says Java is fading fast.

C# is becoming a lot more cross platform compatible.

Anonymous Grayman March 09, 2017 4:24 PM  

Seeing the tensions built up by the discussions here, perhaps the best thing that could happen is a major debt crisis / market crash. It would force these issues to the surface very quickly. The debt crisis / market crash will happen but who knows how long the central bankers can string this along.

It will be unpleasant for everyone but hungry bellies and unemployment will focus minds quickly and change the risk equation in favor of action. Better for us to clean this mess up then to leave it for our children or grandchildren.

Blogger tz March 09, 2017 4:32 PM  

@112 - their "plumb job" means indoor plumbing?

Blogger paul cross March 09, 2017 4:34 PM  

This is the number 1 reason I voted Trump. I've worked in IT for 5 years. In the 4 offices I've worked out HALF of the employees were born in India.

I haven't had a raise in 2 years while these guys sleep 3 people to a 2 bedroom apartment and send their paychecks back to India.

Anonymous RA March 09, 2017 4:35 PM  

@139, I'm not a developer, I was a sysadmin, will have to check out the AZ market for that. In the meantime, I'm about to catch my next contract so I will at least have work for awhile.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 09, 2017 4:36 PM  

I don't really have the option of ignoring Indian recruiters right now. The Portland local IT market is fully Hindu compliant and 80% or more of the recruiters are Indian.
I will NOT EVER do business with a company in India, though. There is simply no way to recover monies if they decide to stiff you. My brother lost 4 months pay that way, and I know a man who actually went to the expense of hiring an Indian lawyer to sue the company. And, of course, he lost, despite having a clear-cut case. So he was out $60k and the cost of a lawyer.

Blogger James Dixon March 09, 2017 4:39 PM  

> Enough with the "nickname idolatry" of a mere mortal man Mr. Vox.

We don't care.

> How many of you get called non-stop by Indian recruiters with low ball contract rates?

Mostly emails, but yeah. Most of the positions offer less than $40K and want years of experience plus certifications.

> I'd get on dice.com to see what is available.

Dice seems to have really gone downhill the past few years. I've had better luck with Indeed.

Anonymous Eduardo March 09, 2017 4:41 PM  

Let me add some info so you guys can get a perspective of WHY we go to your countries... Beyond taking them over in flip-flops... 60k a year is a bad salary in the US right? Well if you translated that back to my currency I would make 180k a year. I could have a good live for 3 years without work, back here in Brazil, just by working a single year in the US with a shitty wage.

And this is Brazil, think about India or China...

Blogger Dirk Manly March 09, 2017 4:51 PM  

@Dc.sunsets
Real prices for trinkets will rise for fortune 500 CEOs, and the technocrat and political class. For everyone else nominal prices will rise, but real prices (I.e.compared to take-home pay) will fall. Retirees might get screwed hard. Might.

Anonymous BBGKB March 09, 2017 4:56 PM  

I suspect that they do actually understand because these "mis-communications" tend to revolve around something that is hard work

I think asians have the ability to copy without understanding, I got the impression from some that they could memorize an entire book but have no clue about what is in the book.

He offered that I could put the work out as my own. He knew I could get a lot of money for it, and didn't mind such an arrangement.

Shimshon do you risk being kicked out of Israel as a freier for not doing that?

there is a huge doctor shortage that is only getting worse as millennials proved unwilling and incapable of making the sacrifices necessary to become doctors

Having worked at inner city hospitals I think we would be OK on doctors if we still had pre 1980's demographics. There is a huge difference in the medical neediness between EastAsian/White and veryone else.

If we're talking about surgury or another specialty the economics still make tons of sense.

All the more incentive for a wife to divorce for 1/2 the money.

97 Nate Radiologists make $800K

Maybe a jewish one that self refers to his own radiology center.

"Based on percentiles, the median yearly salary for 50th percentile of radiologists has been around $216,577. Similarly, about 25th percentile of radiologists received $180,813, 15th percentile of them received $157,966 while top 10th percentile received $269,526 per year

Blogger Buybuydandavis March 09, 2017 4:57 PM  

JC NRA wrote:

These companies aren't even saving money in the long term - it's smoke and mirrors. Sticking to "the Narrative" ...


Companies hiring from the pimps are getting hosed. At least the shareholders are. But all sorts of people are profiting.

US managers get to manage big teams of churned cogs. The cogs are no threat to their positions, while company employees with technical competence reporting to them would be.

And the US managers also have deals and relationships with the pimps. All the money the pimps suck out of the company for doing no work is a huge slush fund to get the business in the first place.

Big corps are much like government. The bureaucracy exists for it's own good.

Anonymous One Deplorable DT March 09, 2017 5:01 PM  

@139 - I had been ignoring Dice.com (for no real reason), so thanks for the advice/reminder. Setting everything up now.

My .NET experience goes back to 2002 because I landed a job at a company that embraced it out of the gate and was porting in house VB6 code to VB.NET. I'm agnostic about language syntax in the .NET universe. Before that company I was working in C++. Since then I've worked in C# and VB.NET projects.

Blogger Dirk Manly March 09, 2017 5:09 PM  

#8601
Indians will tell you that they are incapable of honestly maintaining the bureaucratic and office systems which were left in place by the Brits when they left. India = corruption.

Anonymous Discard March 09, 2017 5:13 PM  

President Trump: Tech billionaires give money, but American tech workers vote. Give those workers another reason to choose you.

Anonymous CloseHauled March 09, 2017 5:19 PM  

@145 James Dixon

Never heard of Indeed. I have had my contract for 3+ years and dice.com was it before that.

But I did a comparative search and Indeed had 464 C# jobs in Phoenix greater area (which is a huge area). dice had around 150 listed openings. So you are right.

@146 Eduardo
We don't blame you for wanting to work here but all the H1B's have kept wages flat for more than a decade for most SW engineers.

Plus the globalists/MSM/democrats teach immigrants their version of what an American is/believes and somewhere down the line immigrants will be the instrument to turn America into Venezuela. Recall how Chavez played the poor against the middle class and rich. When the poor welfare recipients pass 50% of the population that is where we are heading.

Anonymous EH March 09, 2017 5:23 PM  

dc.sunsets wrote: Only a Commonweal Civilization can produce the marvels we take for granted.

https://thosewhocansee.blogspot.com/2015/09/why-re-colonization-commonweal.html


Thanks, dc, that was an incredibly comprehensive article, the first thing I've bookmarked for months.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey March 09, 2017 5:50 PM  

@dc.sunsets
"The H1-B system is thus a clone of leftists' cogdis, that they can have the fruits of something without the only trees capable of producing them."

Perceptive.

Anonymous BBGKB March 09, 2017 5:56 PM  

In the 90s doctors wanted to stay in the military so they wouldn’t have to deal with HMOs telling them how to give care.

essentially subsidizes the mistakes of incompetent doctors out of the hides of competent ones. So guess what happens? Doctors figure that since they're penalized anyway no matter how competent they are, they let themselves screw up more often

The vast majority of malpractice I am personally aware of is non White, that’s even counting things like a white ER doctor being sued despite doing everything right when he did the treatment based on a Radiologist's mistake.

who don't give a shit about their bodies (fat people, queers, etc., who skew Democrat) force healthy people to pay for their mistakes.

You are not just paying $2k-$5k a month for meds for each AIDS patient but now $1500+ per month per person using TRUVADA Prep instead of condoms. Prep is hard on kidneys & liver so a decade from now there will be a lot of sick gays if the drug resistant AIDS that came to the US from africa last year doesn't spread.

Denninger has often had some very pointed remarks along those lines. His last post was about diabetics and their drain on the system

That requires more than anyone who cares about patient comments would endure. "Those who claim “it doesn’t work” will be locked in an isolation ward where they will be fed that diet for two weeks (with no access of any sort to any other source of sustenance) and be able to prove that for them, individually, it doesn’t work"

Anonymous Eduardo March 09, 2017 5:56 PM  

@153
We don't blame you for wanting to work here but all the H1B's have kept wages flat for more than a decade for most SW engineers.

Oh I thought something like that was occuring not as bad as flat non-growth but the idea was more to give the BIG motivation for going to a First World country even if it means a shitty pay doing a shitty bog at it. Imagine that, many of you could move to Brazil or Argentina right now and never have to work again and still have a very comfy life.

Plus the globalists/MSM/democrats teach immigrants their version of what an American is/believes

Now although they are taught wrong beliefs about the US from these "Patriotic Americans" you have to remember this one thing too: Many go to stay. They are more then willing to replace a local worker and make a shitty wager if that means a better life when compared to their home country. I still think some severe selfishness is in play, like more specialized workers who could help their countries but rather go abroad (and never come back btw)

and somewhere down the line immigrants will be the instrument to turn America into Venezuela.

Well this is a bit off from we are talking here XD, but Many Venezuelans are crossing into Brazil and invading houses so they can have some place to live lol. Oh the humanity, isn't communism beautiful?

Recall how Chavez played the poor against the middle class and rich. When the poor welfare recipients pass 50% of the population that is where we are heading.

Oh yeah, that is a tactic created by the São Paulo Forum, a bunch of nutty communists wanting to create a South American Communist State among other commie things. They do the same thing here in Brazil. Important to know, but EVERYTHING that Leftist South Americans do, usually come from the US Leftists.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey March 09, 2017 6:15 PM  

@dc.sunsets

"One caveat: Americans are addicted to the little candies dropped by Globalism's unicorns. Many of our most cutting-edge toys are products of cooperation driven by worldwide coordination of Lowest Common Denominator outsourcing."

A related point is the deeply-embedded assumption that the country exists for the benefit of the economy, that people, their culture, their traditions, their religion, etc., are insignificant compared with their primary role as interchangeable cogs in the great machine that is the global economy. This belief is so automatic for mainstream neocons/ neolibs that they don't really have a conception of, or a name for, it. To commies and to the Old Right, it's "economism":


https://infogalactic.com/info/Economism

Anonymous White Collar Jerk March 09, 2017 6:19 PM  

What part of `Saving Money IS the Same as Making Money` do you people not understand?

Anonymous Avalanche March 09, 2017 6:23 PM  

@33 "The stated purpose of the visa is to let employers bring in unique talent not available in the US."

On the other hand, MILO would qualify!! If they try to mess with his current visa, let's get him an H1B!

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey March 09, 2017 6:30 PM  

@Some Dude
"But bizarrely, Heritage/ Peterson/National Review/ Americans for Prosperity/ Wall Street Journal/Forbes argue immigration increases American incomes."

The ridiculous part is, you don't have to know anything about economics per se to recognize that this is a ludicrous argument. You don't need to argue about the underlying assumptions, or wade through complex econometric models.

You just have to realize that any quasi-stable, self-regulating system that is operating within its parameters, whether that system is electrical, mechanical, biological, or economic, needs an error signal. To put it another way-- if the system's reaction to an external impulse is greater in magnitude than the initial impulse, it would oscillate out of control, and thus would not be a quasi-stable system in the first place.

Blogger Jose March 09, 2017 6:32 PM  

Let's grant all the bad badissimo things about H-1B visas as discussed above; that's the "on one hand." This is the "on the other hand." Because echo chambers are bad for thinking.

- Let's say no more engineers from India or China (or Europe, Australia, Canada); what's more likely, that jobs get reassigned to locals or that jobs move abroad?

- Despite their best attempts to kill education in the EU, engineering degrees in the EU are basically math, science, engineering, maybe one business course on top. (My understanding is that China & India have similar structures.) Elite engineering schools in the US mandate one or two full-semester-equivalent of courses in Arts, Humanities, and Social Sciences. That's not counting "engineering" courses like "social impact of computers," "women in the engineering workplace," "social media optimization," and other make-credit courses with no technical content.

- Who's likely to be a better worker, Sanjay who's graduated from a competitive system where selection for training is made by grades in hard subjects and the professors couldn't care less about the students (i.e. no pandering for "evals"), or Sunflower who insists on xir special pronouns and a safe place for when the compiler says "syntax error line 1"? Sunflower's grades were better, you say? Ah, grades in contemporary american academe, woe betide the faculty member who gives a B, for his/her faculty evaluations will reflect the "lack of understanding of special circumstances." (Oh the stories I could tell...)

- Michelle Malkin is very watchable but her shows forget that the same replacement happens with _young_ engineers taking over from _outdated_ engineers, not just foreigners taking over from locals. (I've made this argument over and over in professional associations, but they don't care because... I don't know, reasons.) Disney, a big Michelle Malkin (who is very watchable) bugaboo replaced electro-mechanical animatronics engineers with micro-controller animatronics engineers. If you don't keep up-to-date in a technical field, either move into management or you're eventually toast.

These are just the top-of-mind issues on the pro-H-1B side; a reasonable case could be made for a compensation floor for any H-1B hire which would remove the more base cases of economic exploitation. Say X% above the median prevailing US compensation for similar careers, adjusted for age of visa (over the 6-8 years of an, H1-B the comparison wages would go up significantly).

Anonymous BBGKB March 09, 2017 6:38 PM  

Sanjay who's graduated from a competitive system where selection for training is made by grades in hard subjects and the professors couldn't care less about the students

They also don't care about cheating. There are tons of pics of indians & asians cheating.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey March 09, 2017 6:40 PM  

@Grayman
"once you have a few indians working together they quickly cooperate to bring in more indians"

This is normal behavior for almost every racial/ ethnic group apart from White Europeans.

Blogger Jose March 09, 2017 6:44 PM  

BBGKB wrote:They also don't care about cheating. There are tons of pics of indians & asians cheating.

Unlike american students who prefer to blackmail professors with threats of bad evals or complaints administration unless they get all As with zero effort (and concomitantly zero learning). That's why these graduates dislike the algorithm interview in computer jobs, and more generally the "solve a problem" interview in other engineering jobs, and why companies now use these as a basic screening device (including written exams).

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 09, 2017 6:50 PM  

Jose wrote:Let's grant all the bad badissimo things about H-1B visas as discussed above; that's the "on one hand." This is the "on the other hand." Because echo chambers are bad for thinking.

- Let's say no more engineers from India or China (or Europe, Australia, Canada); what's more likely, that jobs get reassigned to locals or that jobs move abroad?

All the jobs that can be moved offshore already have been. Most of the ones that would move are jobs wrangling foreign workshops.

- Despite their best attempts to kill education in the EU, engineering degrees in the EU are basically math, science, engineering, maybe one business course on top. (My understanding is that China & India have similar structures.) Elite engineering schools in the US mandate one or two full-semester-equivalent of courses in Arts, Humanities, and Social Sciences. That's not counting "engineering" courses like "social impact of computers," "women in the engineering workplace," "social media optimization," and other make-credit courses with no technical content.

So what?

- Who's likely to be a better worker, Sanjay who's graduated from a competitive system where selection for training is made by grades in hard subjects and the professors couldn't care less about the students (i.e. no pandering for "evals"), or Sunflower who insists on xir special pronouns and a safe place for when the compiler says "syntax error line 1"? Sunflower's grades were better, you say? Ah, grades in contemporary american academe, woe betide the faculty member who gives a B, for his/her faculty evaluations will reflect the "lack of understanding of special circumstances." (Oh the stories I could tell...)

Sanjay, who's graduated from a strangely non-competitive system where selection for training is made by purchased grades in hard subjects supplemented by a universal culture of cheating and bribery and the professors couldn't care less about the students unless they are related, belong to the same temple or the same social or religious class, his parents come from the same village, or have ready money, and the only purpose of the school is to qualify for a masters degree program in the US...
FIFY
American Academia has nothing to do with the issue. An employer, especially in IT, that depends on degrees rather than skills is a lazy, incompetent idiot and deserves to fail.

- Michelle Malkin is very watchable but her shows forget that the same replacement happens with _young_ engineers taking over from _outdated_ engineers, not just foreigners taking over from locals. (I've made this argument over and over in professional associations, but they don't care because... I don't know, reasons.) Disney, a big Michelle Malkin (who is very watchable) bugaboo replaced electro-mechanical animatronics engineers with micro-controller animatronics engineers. If you don't keep up-to-date in a technical field, either move into management or you're eventually toast.

So what? Either your skills are useful or they are not. Once a time I was a VMS administrator. That skill is not longer required by the market. So I do Unix, and now Linux. That has nothing to do with importing hundreds of thousands of foreigners, with the express purpose of driving down wages and disemploying Americans.

Really your argument seems to boil down to "not everything is perfect in US tech". That was never in question.

Anonymous Avalanche March 09, 2017 6:51 PM  

@65 "they don't even teach Assembler at my alma mater any more. It was a formerly required course for any CS degree. Now, it's not even available as an option."

New business idea for Assembler coders! Online courses and certs. Get folks who want to learn a way they can.

Anonymous Avalanche March 09, 2017 6:54 PM  

@66 Why do Indians dominate the spelling bee championships?

Because spelling bees today are NOT about spelling; they're about memorizing. The kids are given LISTS of words which they memorize and pull up to spell out in the"bee" -- but it's never words they haven't already been practicing on.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY March 09, 2017 6:54 PM  

So cheating on a test equates to learning ? Why would Pajeet cheat if he is so damned smart ?
Boy Howdy, I've heard some dumb crap before, but this tops them all.

Blogger Cail Corishev March 09, 2017 6:55 PM  

- Let's say no more engineers from India or China (or Europe, Australia, Canada); what's more likely, that jobs get reassigned to locals or that jobs move abroad?

They'll go to locals -- some right away, some after failed outsourcing. Companies have already outsourced everything they think they can, and then some. It already fails much of the time even for low-level grunt work. It'll fail even faster with harder stuff.

- Who's likely to be a better worker,

We don't care. If Americans are bad workers, that's a problem for Americans to fix amongst ourselves, not an excuse to replace them. And if you think American college degrees are worthless because of PC nonsense, you ought to learn a little about the "degrees" tech workers get overseas. I could teach more in a two-week apprenticeship.

Which points to why it's a false dilemna anyway: we don't have to choose between foreign workers or pampered college graduates. Plenty of tech work can be done by smart high school grads who go through apprenticeships or short-term, intensive training programs created by prospective employers.

These are just the top-of-mind issues on the pro-H-1B side;

I've heard them all for years; they're all tired bullshit. Shut it down.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 09, 2017 7:00 PM  

Cail Corishev wrote:Plenty of tech work can be done by smart high school grads who go through apprenticeships or short-term, intensive training programs created by prospective employers.
No college degree here, just 35 years of progressively more technical and more critical tech work.

When I was a hiring manager, a CS degree was a mark against a candidate. An EE degree was two.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY March 09, 2017 7:04 PM  

"Malkin ( Who is very watchable )"
Flip detected.

Anonymous Deplorable Winning March 09, 2017 7:05 PM  

The thinking from 17+ years ago-

http://www.usagold.com/hall/hallfame2.html#anchor87655
We have fought a war and have lost it... The terms for the end of the game were set, in part, in the early 80s. Since then, there had been a tremendous effort by the US government to stop use of American resources by American and foreign consumers. Major finds of gas, and particularly, oil were capped and not allowed to go into production. Forest lands were set aside from loggers. Gold mines were induced not to explore nor produce gold within the US. Why? So that when the end does come, the US will have cash traded commodities to sell - so that when the US can't buy on dollar credit anymore, it will have something to trade while the country is reindustrialized.

The US tried to play the technology card by assisting US tech companies in gaining investments, that was done by making them appear more attractive to investors through SEC and IRS accounting rules regarding ESOPs and merger accounting that lower the cash costs of top talent and make losses seem like earnings. But the "social adjustment" oriented school system produces mostly good salespeople and hamburger flippers. India has more programmers than Silicon Valley, and Taiwan and Singapore produce more chips. The best computer and software design is done in Ireland and the Norse countries, and wireless technology is mostly a Finnish, British and German industry. The only way to eliminate the disadvatage in education is to import as many tech pros as we can before they stop wanting to come here. If 10 million 30-35 year old techies can be imported over the next 5-10 years, the US may have a chance to survive as the major economy.


and behind it is http://www.usagold.com/hall/hallfame3.html#anchor203876
...there is discussion of displacement of local manufacture by imports due to "free trade".

This is not true!

The actual cause is "Triffin's dilemma", which was actually discovered at least 3 centuries ago, and possibly first formulated by Sir Gresham, the Exchequer to Elisabeth some 450 years ago.

The idea is simple, industry is destroyed at the source of money creation...

Anonymous Eduardo March 09, 2017 7:07 PM  

We don't care. If Americans are bad workers, that's a problem for Americans to fix amongst ourselves, not an excuse to replace them.

You know what the problem in this is: Many companies depend on foreign money to maintain their operations as they are, how you gonna convince bigger companies to give up on their cash (and their greed XD) so they could hire an American that won't give them the projected profit?

I think man, what the US need is some obviously Nationalistc companies that are down with America and that is it. The philosophy and ethics of current companies is globalist and not nationalistic.

Or accept shitty wagers XD. (Remember when these guys want 10 workers for 50k a year that is all they are willing to pay)

Anonymous LurkingPuppy March 09, 2017 7:16 PM  

CloseHauled wrote:The senior level Indian engineers are the ones with a red dot on their forehead.
This isn't Counter-Strike, you can turn that off.

Cail Corishev wrote:And it's not just them; it's almost everyone. Post something on social media about immigrant labor taking away jobs, and all sorts of normal, middle-class Americans will declare (as if they know anything about it) that the Americans who lost those jobs deserved it because they were lazy or didn't learn enough.
I've heard that Americans ‘feel entitled and whine’. And we get to import the best and brightest people from every other country, although that didn't work out so well for Vox's people when it happened to them.

If someone can be born American, as American as George Washington and apple pie, in $OTHER_COUNTRY, then someone can be born a wog here on U.S. dirt. They have to go back to wherever they belong.

Snidely Whiplash wrote:American Academia has nothing to do with the issue. An employer, especially in IT, that depends on degrees rather than skills is a lazy, incompetent idiot and deserves to fail.
To be fair, the (((Supreme Court))) says it's RSHD to hire people based on their skills.

jOHN MOSBY wrote:"Malkin ( Who is very watchable )"
Flip detected.

Good point. xkcd.com/now says it's 8 AM over there now; I guess he has an early shift at the troll sweatshop.

Blogger Mountain Man March 09, 2017 7:17 PM  

"They also don't care about cheating. There are tons of pics of indians & asians cheating.”


My ex wife was a teacher at a very prestigious prep school. The number of asian students that arrived and unable to write even basic english - were legion. One of them even admitted to her that proxies were used, back in the home country, to take the tests in their place. That over a decade ago. One can assume its only gotten worse.

Blogger Elocutioner March 09, 2017 7:20 PM  

I've worked with a lot of Indians and Pakistanis. They're rarely above average in competence and the jobs they do could easily be done by Americans.

And while we're at it, kill the bullshit student visa programs too. There's no reason we should be educating the next round of foreigners at the expense of Americans.

Blogger Cail Corishev March 09, 2017 7:25 PM  

(Remember when these guys want 10 workers for 50k a year that is all they are willing to pay)

Funny, when I go to McDonald's and say, "I want a Big Mac for ten cents, and that's all I'm willing to pay," they don't go for it. I wonder why that is.

Wages are a two-way, supply-and-demand-driven bargain, just like everything else. It's very simple: if an employer wants X people to do job Y, he has to offer a high enough wage to get X Americans to do job Y. If he doesn't do that, job Y doesn't get done, and he'd better find something else to do.

The idea that an employer should be able to offer what he thinks is the correct wage for a job, and if people don't take it he has a moral right to some kind of alternative at his price, is just stupid. He's not offering enough. He needs to offer more. If the wage it takes to get people isn't enough for him to make a profit, then perhaps what he's trying to do can't be profitable, or perhaps he's just not good at it, but he needs to find a different line of work.

I've been on the ownership side of a failing business, though thankfully I didn't have employees depending on me. It sucks, but sometimes you just can't make the bottom line come out in the black. That doesn't mean you have a right to get cheaper and cheaper employees until it does.

Blogger James Dixon March 09, 2017 7:44 PM  

> - Let's say no more engineers from India or China (or Europe, Australia, Canada); what's more likely, that jobs get reassigned to locals or that jobs move abroad?

That depends on the relative cost of doing business.

. - Who's likely to be a better worker, Sanjay who's graduated from a competitive system where selection for training is made by grades in hard subjects and the professors couldn't care less about the students (i.e. no pandering for "evals"), or Sunflower who insists on xir special pronouns and a safe place for when the compiler says "syntax error line 1"?

Neither are your average case, so which is better is immaterial to your average company.

> If you don't keep up-to-date in a technical field, either move into management or you're eventually toast.

Well, duh. Every IT person knows and accepts this.

Anonymous Eduardo March 09, 2017 7:45 PM  

@178 Cail

Well truthly, because the one with the shiny burger is them, and they know your stomach will get the batter of you ... eventually... o_o... o_Õ any minute now...

Now, I think they do not offer what they think it is right, they offer what fits in their desired Profit Margin or what they think they can get from a particular job.

Think about the big companies full of greedy blood-sucking vampire were-pigs. (Hey a new species for a romance). If they give you 100 Million and want 50 million as profit, the CEO has to find a way to make those 50 million come around or these TransSpecies weirdos will get their money-ball and play elsewhere; but there is more! the CEO wants to travel to the moon so he needs to open some money for that TOO! Many big companies and medium companies fall into that class.

How you gonna get the degenerates to give up on their Moon-Trip so they can give jobs to Americans? It is not even a matter of being justified it is more the case that many of the head of companies are horribly greedy people.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 09, 2017 7:53 PM  

Cail Corishev wrote:Funny, when I go to McDonald's and say, "I want a Big Mac for ten cents, and that's all I'm willing to pay," they don't go for it. I wonder why that is.
And if McDonalds goes to the FDA and says "There's huge demand for hamburgers at $0.10, but we can't meet that price point unless we can import uninspected 'beef' from Bangladesh", they're still not allowed to import it. Telling me about Wagyu beef from Japan is a category error.

Anonymous Satan's Hamster March 09, 2017 8:02 PM  

"the real issue with ditching the visa programs in the medical field."

Assuming we manage to avoid a complete collapse, most everyday doctoring will be automated away in the next 20 years. The medical unions have managed to block it so far, but as the cost of healthcare inexorably rises in a falling economy, it will become inevitable.

We're already at the point where Google is as good at diagnosing minor ailments as the average doctor, making the doctor visit just an expensive way to get a magic piece of paper that allows you to buy the relevant drugs. By 2040, your Fitbit will have so many sensors it will be able to send a notification to tell you you're sick before you even realize.

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky March 09, 2017 8:04 PM  

I am an older software engineer, one who began with decks of FORTRAN punch cards into a computer that filled a room. But I have always remained current and abreast, so I have been a long time participant of 'life in the field.'

It has been a disappointing experience. I do not recommend the field to young people today. How can I, in good conscience, do so? Recently a young acquaintance of mine graduated college with a graphics design bachelorate degree and, with no prior work experience, immediately landed his first job for $60k. Meanwhile, I have been witnessing, for years, many of my experienced and esteemed colleagues fighting the menace of $60k per year H1Bs, and losing.

Wages in this country for software engineering are stagnant, and they have been so for a very long time. This fact, by itself, puts to a lie the foundational notion behind H1Bs. If we were truly experiencing a labor shortage here then wages would be rising to signal that. The laws of supply and demand do yet apply.

Back in the halcyon days of the 1990s, they were pulling people off the street and throwing huge money at them if they had even the slightest notion of how to pull off "helloworld" in Visual Basic 6 or this new-fangled thing called Java.

That's what demand looks like. These days I know guys who dream in Knuth every night with many proven years under their belts and on their resumes, and they are searching for a job, frightened about their future.

Anonymous One Deplorable DT March 09, 2017 8:13 PM  

@167 - New business idea for Assembler coders! Online courses and certs. Get folks who want to learn a way they can.

There's not a great need for assembly level programmers. The problem is that if you don't learn assembler then you are blind to how code executes and data moves on the silicon. And that leads to bloated, inefficient code in higher level languages.

You can spot this in online coding challenges. A hundred participants will submit Java, Python, and C# solutions. A couple will brag about how their submissions are faster for this reason or that reason. Then some guy will submit a C solution that blows past everything. I've been that guy a few times.

Anonymous Icicle March 09, 2017 8:17 PM  

It would just be too rich if all these incompetent H-1B visas working as outside contractors were the reason the CIA hacking tools were leaked.

Anonymous TLM March 09, 2017 8:18 PM  

About the medical field side of this;

Most Indian surgeons are terrible, especially the general ones. The sole exception I've seen are those American-Indian surgeons in urology.

Canadian neurosurgeons are also subpar.

Egyptian ortho/neuro surgeons, good luck with that.

Muslim surgeons, well that's a whole new level of incompetence.

And from some time ago, I can never forget the sh*tty Paki/Hindu? general surgeon that used to cruise the wards looking for catatonic elderly patients to stick a G-tube into.

And as much as I'd like to trash the Jews, most of those surgeons have their sh*t together, but nothing compares to good ole fashioned surgeons of heritage American/western European descent.

For the women it's a crap shoot. Seen some excellent ones, but most appear average.



Anonymous Eduardo March 09, 2017 8:30 PM  

Muslim surgeons, well that's a whole new level of incompetence.

Dude goes to have a kidney removed, gets beheaded...

Blogger Cail Corishev March 09, 2017 8:35 PM  

How you gonna get the degenerates to give up on their Moon-Trip so they can give jobs to Americans?

What the hell do I care? Their profits are their concern, not mine. My position, and that of a growing majority of Americans, is that as long as they want to make their profits by selling to Americans in America, they will use American workers in their American facilities. That's all. If they can get rich doing that, good for them. If they can't, too bad. Life's rough all over.

Some of the things that need to be done to turn America around are hard things. This is not. This is one of the easy ones. Shut it down, send them home, call it a day.

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky March 09, 2017 8:42 PM  

Surprisingly, Assembly is ranked #13 on the recent TIOBE survey of computer language popularity. That's one tic below Ruby, and it's close.

That doesn't make sense to me. Assembly is vital, but it's a niche belonging to systems programmers (of which their are too damn few these days).

Fess up, guys. What are you doing in Assembly?

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Deplorable Cents March 09, 2017 8:43 PM  

Jose

These are just the top-of-mind issues on the pro-H-1B side;


We don't care. You have to go back.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Deplorable Cents March 09, 2017 8:45 PM  

Jose

These are just the top-of-mind issues on the pro-H-1B side;


We don't care. You have to go back.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey March 09, 2017 8:55 PM  

@Deplorable Winning

The actual cause is "Triffin's dilemma", which was actually discovered at least 3 centuries ago, and possibly first formulated by Sir Gresham, the Exchequer to Elisabeth some 450 years ago.

The idea is simple, industry is destroyed at the source of money creation..."

Good formulation of the issue. Never seen it put quite that way before. ZeroHedge had a decent article on Triffin's dilemma, too:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-05/triffins-dilemma-2014-edition

Anonymous Eduardo March 09, 2017 8:57 PM  

@188 Cail

Well, yeah I do understand that, and yes you have nothing to do with it. But... I thought you wanted to keep the companies, because they still have American Jobs in them.

What if they leave and unemploy a number of people in a market with lots of unemployed people? I know life is harsh, but you don't have to have a harsh transition. Case and point, The communists! Look how well they F'ed everything going nice and slow.

If you cut the H1B's and train the next generation, soon all workers will be American and you won't unemploy anyone (Any Amerian One got it? ;D)

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY March 09, 2017 9:00 PM  

188. Cail Corishev
Your comment reminded me of a conversation Henry Ford II had with Walter Reuther , Head of the UAW :
Ford: " Look at these new automatic machines we just bought, Walter. You know what the best part about them is ? They don't ask for a raise, they don't go on strike when they don't get one, and they never demand benefits. "
Walter Reuther: " But they don't buy your cars .Henry ."

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey March 09, 2017 9:01 PM  

@Cail Corishev
"The idea that an employer should be able to offer what he thinks is the correct wage for a job, and if people don't take it he has a moral right to some kind of alternative at his price, is just stupid."

Exactly. Kind of odd that "labor shortage" is always a thing, but "wage shortage" never is.

Blogger Cail Corishev March 09, 2017 9:09 PM  

Fess up, guys. What are you doing in Assembly?

As DT said, you should learn some assembly if you want to know what's really going on under the hood.

I just tinker with it for fun, because I did my first programming in Z80 and 6502 assembly thirty years ago. There's a satisfaction in knowing exactly what your program is doing one instruction at a time, right down to the individual bits moving around. It's a change of pace when you need a break from languages that try to do everything for you -- sometimes badly.

As far as getting paid for it goes, it's definitely a niche on modern hardware. I generally don't put much stock in their list, but #13 doesn't surprise me. That's below all the common high-level languages, and "Assembly" includes a lot of different stuff on all platforms, while some of those languages are more platform specific.

Anonymous map March 09, 2017 9:11 PM  

A company that cannot turn a profit with the prevailing cost structure is an unprofitable company. It should go out of business and its resources allocated to more profitable firms.

If I want to build an aluminum widget where the cost of aluminum is $15/ton but I need it to be $5/ton, then that is too bad for me. I can't build my company. It would not be right for the government to manipulate the price of aluminum so that my business can survive.

The same applies to Facebook or Microsoft. If they can't find the resources at the price they need to remain profitable, then they need to go out of business and have their resources re-allocated more efficiently.

Blogger Jose March 09, 2017 9:14 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:Really your argument seems to boil down to "not everything is perfect in US tech".

If that's what you got from it, it's --as Nils Bohr used to say-- quite interesting.



James Dixon wrote:Every IT person knows and accepts this.

No: for every 1 that does, there are 999 who feel entitled to the job without a single hour of capability improvement per year. When asked why, they complain about lack of time, though they don't seem to notice the 10-30 hours per week they spend watching TV...

Then, when they lose their jobs, they complain to Michelle Malkin (who's very watchable) that these "for'ners are taking our jerbs." (That fully 1/3 of the replacing workforce is young american is left out of the conversation; that would clarify that it's a matter of competence rather than of national origin.)



Cail Corishev wrote:Shut it down, send them home, call it a day.

That's the kind of calm, pondered, non-emotional decision-making that is generally expected of people in positions of responsibility.



Oh, and Nils Bohr, with a bunch of other immigrant europeans, that's basically how the US got its nuclear program and its space program. 'tis one of them things.

Blogger weka March 09, 2017 9:16 PM  

This. The girls regurgitate a d get in. And go part time because babies

Blogger weka March 09, 2017 9:20 PM  

Only the proceduralists make that kind of money. Physicians and Family docs and Pathologists and public health and psychological medicine won't make many in the USA.

Do not go to med school unless you are driven to it.

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