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Monday, March 20, 2017

Mailvox: the necessity of Christianity

Stickwick had some thoughts about the IQ-related video I posted yesterday.

I found the Rushton video interesting. During the Q&A, someone astutely asked Rushton why the difference in terms of societal output between whites and higher-IQ Asians. Rushton said the answer is not known, but he's wrong. The answer is well known amongst historians of science: it's Christianity.

Pearcey and Thaxton, in their book, The Soul of Science, explain in great detail that it was the ideals and assumptions of Christianity that led to science and thus greater technological advances.

These ideals and assumptions include:

  •     Belief that the universe was created and ordered by a transcendent, rational mind
  •     Belief that the universe is lawful and knowable
  •     Belief in the reality of the physical world
  •     Belief that the physical world is of value
  •     Viewing physical work as noble, as a divine calling
  •     The Biblical admonishment to test claims
  •     Viewing the study of nature as a proper form of worship
  •     Belief in linear time
  •     Belief that mathematics forms the substrate of the physical world

Every non-Christian culture lacks at least one, and usually several, of these, which are all necessary for the development and advancement of science. This is why the intellectually advanced Greeks, and the technologically advanced Romans and Chinese, did not develop science, while the "backwards" medieval European Christians did.

The implications are obvious:

  1. If progressives are ever successful in completely secularizing the West, we will be relegated to second-world status.
  2.  If Asians, with their superior IQs and self-discipline, ever become Christian in sufficiently large numbers, they will eat our lunch in terms of scientific and technological advancements. 

This is why any efforts to make America and Europe great are doomed unless they are centered around Christianity.

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228 Comments:

1 – 200 of 228 Newer› Newest»
Blogger S1AL March 20, 2017 11:08 AM  

See: South Korea

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) March 20, 2017 11:10 AM  

This is why any efforts to make America and Europe great are doomed unless they are centered around Christianity.

I think that's going to be the fault line of the alt right in the future.

Anonymous VFM #6306 March 20, 2017 11:12 AM  

Would you like to contribute to Christianismi restitutio but don't know where to start?

Rabbi B offers some excellent wisdom:

https://www.menofthewest.net/seven-stages-apostasy-stage-1-neglecting-study-gods-word/

God save the West!

Anonymous 3/20/17 March 20, 2017 11:15 AM  

OT: anyone else has had impersonators using their names and writing posts about violence in old threads?

Someone is adding posts about violence while pretending to be VD readers. It's some kind of setup op, I imagine.

I do not advocate for violence.

Blogger S1AL March 20, 2017 11:15 AM  

I will offer one counterpoint: the collectivist tendency of the East Asian cultures also means that they would likely see consistent scientific progress, but with fewer stunning breakthroughs that are often driven by eccentric, individualistic inventors.

Blogger Jehu March 20, 2017 11:16 AM  

I seem to recall some high level leader in China describing Christianity as the secret sauce of the West. Anyone have a link? From a more mundane level, it's pretty clear that the only way to have a scaleable high trust society is to have Christianity be the moral hegemon, unless you're Japanese. I don't think you can do science, long term, as a society, without high trust.

Anonymous Windermere March 20, 2017 11:17 AM  

"If progressives are ever successful in completely secularizing the West, we will be relegated to second-world status."

I doubt any Christian leaves their beliefs behind nor that people grow up agnostic or atheist as a result of "progressive" efforts. This is nonsense. Belief is waning and "nones" are increasing in number because the historic claims behind christianity are increasingly untenable in light of experience and science.

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky March 20, 2017 11:23 AM  

I live in Koreatown. It's truly become a Little Seoul. The Koreans here have taken over the churches, too. They take to Christianity quite readily, and avidly. They are better at churchgoing than Americans these days. Almost every church here (there are many) has bilingual services in Korean and in English. And the Korean services are packed everywhere as far as I can tell - not so with the English services.

Anonymous Sam the Man March 20, 2017 11:24 AM  

What I got out of that 1 hour presentation was:

1) The East Asians have a higher average intelligence, but a smaller deviation around the mean. That would account for the markedly lower crime rate, as the lower end of dummies are fewer. On the other hand it would men fewer high end, which is where most advances come.

2) The relationship between testosterone and aggressive behavior. Too much and you have a bunch of violent thugs. Too little and you have a passive population that sits on its laurels. Someplace in the middle you get aggressive folks who can control themselves with self discipline and seek new things.

Those two points would seem to indicate that an alternative answer might have something to do with testosterone and IQ distributions more than religion.

Or perhaps the religion is the needed quality that allows for self discipline. Unless there is an objective truth, why not kill loot and burn? That would also explain why Jews do so well in science.

If true the decline in testosterone in the west is equally a cause of some concern.

Anonymous Viking March 20, 2017 11:26 AM  

This is a very good observation. Christianity, that is underground churches, continue to grow rapidly. Imagine what might happen if the Chinese gov't ever embraces Christianity as a way to unify their country. Rome did, and while the empire still didn't survive it probably lasted longer than it might have and the impact it had on setting a foundation for a Christian Europe can hardly be overstated.

Anonymous VFM #6306 March 20, 2017 11:26 AM  

Windermere wrote:"If progressives are ever successful in completely secularizing the West, we will be relegated to second-world status."

I doubt any Christian leaves their beliefs behind nor that people grow up agnostic or atheist as a result of "progressive" efforts. This is nonsense. Belief is waning and "nones" are increasing in number because the historic claims behind christianity are increasingly untenable in light of experience and science.


Yeah, Haruko Obokata proved that in her definitive study on... oh poop.

Blogger Theproductofafineeduction March 20, 2017 11:28 AM  

Number 2 already appears to be happening to some degree. A third of all Koreans are Christian and while only around 2-4% of Chinese are Christian, the sheer numbers of their population means that 2-4% already makes them one of the largest Christian nations in the world and if the growth continues apace they will have almost 250 million Christians by 2030.

However, there is one wrinkle to their argument, or perhaps a mere. The Philippines. That country is almost entire Christian, has been so for quiet some time, and is still very dysfunction, but then if one takes the time horizon to civilization account 500 years ago the islands were populated by literal savages, which potentially means that the Philippines issues could potentially be explained by the fact that they may still be in the earlier part of that development cycle.

Anonymous Credo in Unum Deum March 20, 2017 11:30 AM  

I also think that one of reasons Western Europe exploded on the world stage around the year 1500 is because for the previous 1000+ years the Church forbid cousins from marrying one another.

More than 30 generations of "hybrid vigor" resulted in landing people on the Moon. Imagine how much further we'd be today if the SJWs hadn't taken over starting in the 1960s...

Anonymous Grayman March 20, 2017 11:32 AM  

VD

If Asians, with their superior IQs and self-discipline, ever become Christian in sufficiently large numbers, they will eat our lunch in terms of scientific and technological advancements.

Working in a technical field, the one thing that has consistently stood out is that asians do not perform as well at generating creative solutions. They are excellent at algorithmic activities and procedures but freeform creative problem solving is more successfully done by whites in my personal experience.

Anonymous EH March 20, 2017 11:33 AM  

Some may want to believe that mess of disjointed after-the-fact rationalization, but it's nonsense. Christianity's positive effects on science were mostly indirect, while it had directly negative effects by its dogma, hierarchy's monopoly on theology, deference to authority, miracle-mongering, interference with advanced studies and publishing for non-clerics, insistence on supernatural explanations, and general dishonesty about its history, sacred literature and hagiography (many of the martyrs of the Church were fictional.) The biggest contribution of Christianity to the development of science was preventing cousin marriage, which allowed people smart enough to do science to be bred.

Nullus in verba, "take no one's word for it", the motto of the Royal Society, is the opposite of the theology of all the sects with priests or ministers. The only sect that really does take no one's word for it is the non-pastoral portion of the Religious Society of Friends, which started under the name "the Friends of Truth", later know as the Quakers, who per capita have contributed far more to science and technology than any other sect.

Any efforts to make America and Europe great are doomed unless they are centered around Truth, which precludes centering them around religious dogma.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan March 20, 2017 11:33 AM  

As I say the Left is a woman, and if they assume complete control our second rate status is all but guaranteed. Hell look at your religion these days, churches ran by Polly Puritan Prim Face be nice or else and loud mouth cucked husbands who join in on "Peck the Deltas."

Myself I am with Odin but if I were forced to go to a church I might look for a black ran outfit.

Blogger VFM #7634 March 20, 2017 11:34 AM  

"If progressives are ever successful in completely secularizing the West, we will be relegated to second-world status."

And if progressives are successful in Islamizing the West, we will be relegated to third-world status.

Anonymous Eduardo March 20, 2017 11:38 AM  

Grayman

Please do tell the experience...

I wanna see the difference.

Blogger Shimshon March 20, 2017 11:42 AM  

I took a History of Science course in college (UCSD, 1984 and 1985). The (visiting) professor was a young fellow who was quite unusual. He was traditional. And he taught pretty much what Stickwick said about science developing in the West (was unabashed in crediting Christianity being the foundation). He completely upended the common Galileo myth, among many others. His courses were my favorite GE courses by far (I took European History too). Really opened my eyes to a more honest view of history in general. Highly influential to my own young and developing world view.

He had many amusing stories too. Particularly about his side teaching of a wine appreciation class.

Amusingly, he ended up as the Chairman of the History Department (or whatever position) at a well-known private Orthodox Jewish high school not much later and was there for many years.

Blogger MrPaules March 20, 2017 11:42 AM  

The opposite of religious piety is not secularism; it is nihilism.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer March 20, 2017 11:43 AM  

A lot of atheists think that it Christianity caused a 1000 to 1500 year pause in technological progress and if it wasn't for Christianity we would be settling other star systems by now. Educated atheists generally try to get those fellows to shut up.

Blogger For 8 billion, sparky should have bought a hawter asian. March 20, 2017 11:43 AM  

Chinese invent stuff but dont tell anyone because they know their boss, supplier, staff, customer or government will steal their idea to enrich themselves. No rule of law, no strong protection of private intellectual property.

Add to this their genetic drive for efficiency. Why waste effort developing something which will be stolen?

Season it with a bit of "I can make money copying dumb whitey, why reivent the wheel when I can just steal it?"

Yes, Christian morals would lead to a flowering of Chinese intellectual output. Per capita, they would never reach European inventiveness but given their population size and diligence, they could match us.

Blogger For 8 billion, sparky should have bought a hawter asian. March 20, 2017 11:44 AM  

Chinese invent stuff but dont tell anyone because they know their boss, supplier, staff, customer or government will steal their idea to enrich themselves. No rule of law, no strong protection of private intellectual property.

Add to this their genetic drive for efficiency. Why waste effort developing something which will be stolen?

Season it with a bit of "I can make money copying dumb whitey, why reivent the wheel when I can just steal it?"

Yes, Christian morals would lead to a flowering of Chinese intellectual output. Per capita, they would never reach European inventiveness but given their population size and diligence, they could match us.

Blogger tz March 20, 2017 11:44 AM  

A tradition common to Jewish rabbis and the Medieval university was questioning.
I have to add some to the list or perhaps expand on testing everything. Doubting Thomases are accepted.
Another is planting trees in whose shade you will not walk. Much science and mathematics isn't patentable, and was more of an opensource activity.
10% of Japan is supposedly Catholic, but they haven't moved, though you might need a large majority and I'm not sure they are having extra children.
Would they eat our lunch? Maybe. But it would require the replacement of their culture with something more liberal/libertarian, not merely the state but the society.

I can just as easily see that their culture produces a conformist instead of an explorer Christianity. Exploring the universe as a form of worship is not implicit.

Christianity baptizes existing cultures, rooting out the sinful parts. It does not create different good or neutral parts.

Science and technology was not uniform across Europe or the white nations as far as the creation and exploration. I can't see a Darwin coming from many of the European countries.

Blogger S1AL March 20, 2017 11:46 AM  

@EH - Provide actual evidence for your assertions. You could begin by explaining why atheistic regimes consistently crash and burn, scientifically. You could follow it up by explaining why Christianization of a nation is consistently followed by rapid developments in terms of science and decline in social unrest necessary for science. After that, explain why atheist regimes consistently abandon Truth, while Christian regimes move towards Truth.

Anonymous Grayman March 20, 2017 11:47 AM  

Eduardo..

In bio-tech:
the protein purification process provided does not work. you have 3 days to figure how to do it with the resources we have....GO.

The asian response 24 hr later: We cant with what we have. there is no procedure or documented process to do this.

My white engineer who isnt nearly as detail oriented but is freaking brilliant: ...Here is a list of what I need and 3 possible processes. Give me the equipment and supplies and i'll have you a process in 3 days. 3 days later a functioning process exists...

He teams very well with the Asians as they fill in the detail holes for him.

Blogger MisesMat March 20, 2017 11:47 AM  

Exactly. Thomas E. Woods Jr. (whose show you've appeared on) has a book called "How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization." (It's also a tv series you can find on Youtube that appeared on EWTN.)

I also would recommend, to those who haven't read it, the book "The Victory of Reason" by Rodney Stark.

Both of them add to this post.

For those in the Alt-Right who are prone to sperging into cries of "BUT CHRISTIANITY IS WEAK AND MADE US VULNERABLE TO JEWS/IMMIGRANTS/MUSLIMS!" remember that things don't have to be either/or. Christianity can have both strengths and weaknesses in culture.

Blogger VFM #7634 March 20, 2017 11:48 AM  

A lot of atheists think that it Christianity caused a 1000 to 1500 year pause in technological progress and if it wasn't for Christianity we would be settling other star systems by now.

@21 Ron Winkleheimer
And yet there is absolutely no way progtardery is retarding our potential space exploration. No way at all.

Except via affirmation action, Muslim/African/2nd world immigration, programs and money and subsidies for "da poh", etc. etc.

Anonymous fop March 20, 2017 11:49 AM  

Belief that mathematics forms the substrate of the physical world

Except for biology. Darwin's downfall was his assumption that evolution could be described mathematically.

Blogger MisesMat March 20, 2017 11:51 AM  

Jehu wrote:I seem to recall some high level leader in China describing Christianity as the secret sauce of the West. Anyone have a link? From a more mundane level, it's pretty clear that the only way to have a scaleable high trust society is to have Christianity be the moral hegemon, unless you're Japanese. I don't think you can do science, long term, as a society, without high trust.

It's in Stark's book that I mentioned above.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer March 20, 2017 11:52 AM  

Yep, as expected. Atheist spluttering about evil church retarded scientific advancement. Only now with blather about stopping cousin marriage to account for the fact that other civilizations, such as China, which is essentially secular, are not out settling among the stars right now.

Anonymous EH March 20, 2017 11:58 AM  

For 8 billion, sparky should have bought a hawter asian. wrote:Chinese invent stuff but dont tell anyone because they know their boss, supplier, staff, customer or government will steal their idea to enrich themselves. No rule of law, no strong protection of private intellectual property.

How is that different from the US? If you pay to attend a university, they claim rights to all your ideas. Same with every large employer. They almost never pay royalties or more than a token bonus. If you do break your contractual obligations to give your ideas to your owners, then spend several thousand dollars and a few years to get a patent yourself, the odds of making a profit are at least 50-1 against, and the patent gives you nothing at all but a license to sue infringers, which will cost several hundred thousand dollars per suit, and you still have a high chance of losing.

Chinese don't invent much because they can't. They have no effective enforcement of contract law, so fewer barriers to inventing than in the US.

Anonymous Eduardo March 20, 2017 11:58 AM  

Grayman

So, Extreme Asian people follow protocols but don't quite understand the mechanism of the phenomena at hand while White people do understand the mechanisms?

Something like that?

Blogger Gaiseric March 20, 2017 11:58 AM  

@14: Yeah... that's why when there's an if-then statement, you can't really argue it by stating that the then isn't somehow already happening before the if does.

Anonymous Sensei March 20, 2017 12:08 PM  

If Asians, with their superior IQs and self-discipline, ever become Christian in sufficiently large numbers, they will eat our lunch in terms of scientific and technological advancements.

S1AL wrote:See: South Korea

Almost missed that first comment and was coming to make it. Yes, this is a huge and possibly the decisive factor in SK going from dirt poor to punching so far above their weight. (Sad that so many culture points are being spent on kpop and historical dramas)

Those who commented above on the widespread lack of generative thinking skills are correct, however. In my experience a lot of East Asian parents don't encourage creativity because it leads to deviation from expectations, which are a heuristic ingrained Confucianism doesn't entitle one to set aside, though that's changing in the past decade or so with students who grew up with internet access and a huge amount of "how come the West succeeds without working as hard as we do" kind of dialogue.

Blogger Lazarus March 20, 2017 12:09 PM  

EH wrote:Nullus in verba, "take no one's word for it", the motto of the Royal Society,

And WHO created this "Royal Society" you speak of?

Anonymous Stickwick March 20, 2017 12:09 PM  

S1AL: I will offer one counterpoint: the collectivist tendency of the East Asian cultures also means that they would likely see consistent scientific progress, but with fewer stunning breakthroughs that are often driven by eccentric, individualistic inventors.

There is no such thing as consistent scientific progress. Historians of science, including Thomas Kuhn, have shown that scientific progress occurs through non-intuitive leaps and revolutions. Despite the fact that it is the second-highest producer of scientific articles in the world, it is extremely unlikely that non-Christian China will ever be a source of progress without Christians leading the way.

Revolutions aside, even the quality of research in China is not very good. My brother, when he was a doctoral student in aerospace, would get annoyed when he'd have to referee papers from China, because they were almost all what he called "epsilon papers." In calculus, 'epsilon' represents an infinitesimal increment over some previous value. The authors of these papers would take their previous work, increment it by some tiny amount, and then churn out another paper. They contributed almost nothing to the body of knowledge.

In my field -- astrophysics -- Chinese papers are largely ignored. Partly for the reason described above, and partly because there is so much corruption in Chinese research that you simply can't trust the work.

Blogger Some Dude March 20, 2017 12:11 PM  

No the answer is autism.

Autist - Schizophrenia spectrum. We are all on it.

Autists have no risk taking, creativity and follow established rules reflexively. They are artificial. Master breeds them to follow his rules.

Blogger Some Dude March 20, 2017 12:12 PM  

Zion is a schizophrenic race of man. It is primitive in neuro wiring - hence the famous neurosis and psychiatry movement of the jews.

Whites are goldilocks. In between but rapdidly becoming autist.

Autis people can't dress....

Blogger Markku March 20, 2017 12:13 PM  

So, Extreme Asian people follow protocols but don't quite understand the mechanism of the phenomena at hand while White people do understand the mechanisms?

Or they lack an adventurous spirit, in which the individual is not only free, but goes above and beyond the call of duty, to solve a difficult problem apart from the community.

Blogger Some Dude March 20, 2017 12:15 PM  

Zion is the only high IQ schizo race that has evolved. Behind every fraud, ponzi scheme, market abuse, blackmail paedo ring, 'financial engineering' on Wall Street and bribery slush find lies the mind of a barbarian.

Anonymous Stickwick March 20, 2017 12:16 PM  

EH: Some may want to believe that mess of disjointed after-the-fact rationalization, but it's nonsense.

Please do explain how modern science managed to arise in such a supposedly repressive environment and no where else.

Christianity's positive effects on science were mostly indirect, while it had directly negative effects by its dogma...

Wrong. All you're accomplishing here is proving that you're an historical ignoramus who can only parrot atheist talking points.

Blogger VFM #7634 March 20, 2017 12:16 PM  

@37 Stickwick

Yeah, I could put it in even simpler terms: Christianity frowns upon and discourages cheating, whereas Asian cultures (not just Chinese, but Indian as well) looks upon cheating as a handy sport to get ahead in society. Never mind the fact that scientific research doesn't hold up well when it's based on cheating.

The Japanese have a much stronger code against doing shameful acts, which has sort of acted as an ersatz substitute for Christianity, and the Koreans are semi-Christian, which may help explain why their societies function better. And in Hong Kong, Singapore, and Malaysia, the Chinese were heavily influenced by British standards of behavior, which helped them.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey March 20, 2017 12:18 PM  

@Ron Winkleheimer

"blather about stopping cousin marriage"

Actually, there's something to this, though it has more to do with developing high trust societies, and decreasing clannishness/ corruption, than science per se. Google "hajnal line."

Blogger Christopher Chantrill March 20, 2017 12:18 PM  

Chinese Christians know this. In "Jesus in Beijing" by David Aikman, a Chinese Christian says that first we thought the West's power came from its guns. Then, we thought, from its science. Then from its politics. Now we know it comes from its Christianity.

Anonymous Grayman March 20, 2017 12:19 PM  

Eduardo,

From my personal experience a talented white in technical fields see systems beyond what they are, and for what they CAN be. Asians see systems for exactly what they are to a very detailed level. All else equal, Asians tend to be determinant, Whites tend to be indeterminate, "probabilistic".

Anonymous VFM #7916 March 20, 2017 12:22 PM  

I've had some thoughts on modern Christian churches. These two lines are where a problem may be endemic to revelation based Christianity:

Belief in the reality of the physical world
Belief that the physical world is of value

I see this as two things the modern pentecostal or rapture based churches do very poorly. They elevate the next world out of proportion to the real world, and they seek to die rather than to live. Christians who forsake the real world go the way of the Shakers. Even the Amish understand how to deal with the modern world, but most Christian denominations do not.

It's this attitude of looking to be martyred (without understanding that concept; it's rather like the old Arthurian "Romantic Love" ideas that should be killed off with fire) without any desire to defend or fight for the traditions and values which brought civilization to this level.

This is where the post-religious right has the advantage; I'm willing to do far more than a common chair warmer in a megachurch. I'm not even discussing any kind of "active resistance", but simply in the way I'm living life, educating my children, the conduct of my business and family, etc. If churches can't even manage to educate their children properly, how can they even manage to oppose the Alt-West? Dalrock has some incredibly good information on these points, and he's shaped a fair bit of my thinking toward churches these days.

Ultimately this is why ritual based churches were so effective at maintaining order. They prevented outbreaks of emotion based religion (Evangelical) that lacked a structured foundation for their belief and the traditions required to maintain and pass on those beliefs. I'm generalizing here, understandably, but without hard traditions and ritual Evangelicalism breaks down after the fourth or fifth generation.

These are the churches that will oppose the Alt-Right, but will do so cuckingly and will fail.

Blogger Gaiseric March 20, 2017 12:25 PM  

Asians are less creative, because their culture—including it's widespread lack of Christian virtues—does not reward creativity, and the genes falter rather than succeed in passing themselves down.

Europe didn't become a scientific powerhouse within a generation or two of adopting Christianity either. It was MANY generations of having practiced it, including many indirect consequences of Christianity (the outbreeding project and subsequent high trust society that it engendered, etc.) before it happened.

Again; let's not put the cart before the horse. Saying that something will eventually happen IF 1) current trends with regards to Western civilization continue, and 2) there's a mass Christianization of east Asia doesn't mean that we're in danger of that then statement coming true in the near term.

Blogger Stilicho March 20, 2017 12:26 PM  

1) logically, the CIA should have a program of targeted assassinations of Christian missionaries in China;
2) given the Chinese cultural tendency to discount any foreign innovation that is not compatible with their cultural biases, I would expect them to be cafeteria Christians just as much as the quasi-pagan Aztecs that profess Roman Catholicism (but choosing different menu options as it were). Those that are capable of such a comprehensive rejection of Confuscianism and Communism/socialism will be suppressed by Chicoms for forseeable future and/or migrate to the West. Our challenge is to limit their numbers by excluding those who are just along for the loot.

Blogger tuberman March 20, 2017 12:26 PM  

In a real sense, it takes a religiousness foundation, and specifically Christianity, to continue to see into positive construction in civilization

Secular people, caught in "the Prison-house of language, " can in the short-run keep technical innovation going. But Progressivism is leading to Failed Progress and even Destroyed Civilization. Progress in Western Civilization will take a renewal in Christianity to renew the civilization.

Science in the new Christian way will be Wild or looking for or meditating on the Frontier, and it needs the Christian aspect....because... looking towards Jesus or God with science is a pure craving for intensity, and a striving for novelty. This is the only way to move Western Civilization abruptly forward.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey March 20, 2017 12:26 PM  

@Some Dude
"Behind every fraud, ponzi scheme, market abuse... lies the mind of a barbarian."

High-functioning Gypsies.

Anonymous VFM #7916 March 20, 2017 12:27 PM  

@42

As a useful corollary to my post above, science is systematic processes of testing that build upon previous knowledge to make new discoveries. Ritual based churches that rely on systematic processes to maintain order, that require personal study and exploration, and then writing it down is a nuts and bolts definition of Christianity. That's one reason why science was able to advance and stay advanced through war and turmoil.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 20, 2017 12:27 PM  

Windermere wrote:This is nonsense. Belief is waning and "nones" are increasing in number because the historic claims behind christianity are increasingly untenable in light of experience and science.
The fact that you believe this is proof of the skill of your indoctrinators.

Anonymous Eduardo March 20, 2017 12:28 PM  

@46

I see, that is very interesting "thing".

I wish I could see a highly creative person working so I could understand somewhat of how their minds work. Just to have a glimpse. The problem is that I can only reason through areas that I see a sense in reasoning to, like building a bridge before crossing, but that is not necessarily efficient, so I wanted to see someone hop from island to island in a jetpack!

-------------------

And then I would eat them brains and still their thoughts... What? It could work!

Anonymous VFM #7916 March 20, 2017 12:29 PM  

Bah, comment got eaten:

I've had some thoughts on modern Christian churches. These two lines are where a problem may be endemic to revelation based Christianity:

Belief in the reality of the physical world
Belief that the physical world is of value

I see this as two things the modern pentecostal or rapture based churches do very poorly. They elevate the next world out of proportion to the real world, and they seek to die rather than to live. Christians who forsake the real world go the way of the Shakers. Even the Amish understand how to deal with the modern world, but most Christian denominations do not.

It's this attitude of looking to be martyred (without understanding that concept; it's rather like the old Arthurian "Romantic Love" ideas that should be killed off with fire) without any desire to defend or fight for the traditions and values which brought civilization to this level.

This is where the post-religious right has the advantage; I'm willing to do far more than a common chair warmer in a megachurch. I'm not even discussing any kind of "active resistance", but simply in the way I'm living life, educating my children, the conduct of my business and family, etc. If churches can't even manage to educate their children properly, how can they even manage to oppose the Alt-West? Dalrock has some incredibly good information on these points, and he's shaped a fair bit of my thinking toward churches these days.

Ultimately this is why ritual based churches were so effective at maintaining order. They prevented outbreaks of emotion based religion (Evangelical) that lacked a structured foundation for their belief and the traditions required to maintain and pass on those beliefs. I'm generalizing here, understandably, but without hard traditions and ritual Evangelicalism breaks down after the fourth or fifth generation.

These are the churches that will oppose the Alt-Right, but will do so cuckingly and will fail.

Anonymous AlexT March 20, 2017 12:30 PM  

I remember that as well. Apparently it was a study sponsored by the Chinese government. Steve Sailer might have mentioned it years ago. It was the first thing i thought of when i read this.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer March 20, 2017 12:32 PM  

@44

Yeah, I've seen articles about that.

Blogger VD March 20, 2017 12:32 PM  

Christianity's positive effects on science were mostly indirect, while it had directly negative effects by its dogma

Always nice to see that atheist gammas are reading the blog. Perhaps one day they'll even stop babbling in ignorance long enough to actually learn something.

Blogger Salt March 20, 2017 12:32 PM  

S1AL wrote:I will offer one counterpoint: the collectivist tendency of the East Asian cultures also means that they would likely see consistent scientific progress, but with fewer stunning breakthroughs that are often driven by eccentric, individualistic inventors.

That was my take also. Lack of individualism is a major part. Do not stand out. Also that the white curve is more broad, not spiked.

Anonymous Bz March 20, 2017 12:39 PM  

With so many chinese christians, I am looking forward to the first bull of the coming chinese pope: Ohe, hoc est bibriothece.

Anonymous A Former Spartan March 20, 2017 12:41 PM  

Well, the Christian Roman Empire DID last another 1000 years after the final sack of Rome, arguably only falling because it never really recovered from the its capital getting sacked by Western crusaders at the behest of Venice. That said, and while nothing is impossible with God, it's hard to see a path to the mass conversion of the Polit Bureau . . .

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents March 20, 2017 12:41 PM  

When will we start to see these leaps of science from such Christian nations as Mexico, Venezuela, Guatamala, Nigeria, Uganda and so forth?

Blogger slarrow March 20, 2017 12:42 PM  

Well stated, Stickwick. The biggest assumption scientists really make in their work is this: we can find out. It's such a bedrock assumption in our culture that people don't realize what a bold claim it is. Understanding ourselves to be the children of a loving, all-knowing, all-powerful God who delights in showing us around His creation makes that assumption make sense. Remove that, and it's far more mysterious why anything that arises from evolution (which, in the current understanding, is driven by survival) should also be good at ascertaining Truth.

Whenever people try to wave off the implications of Christianity on our society, I'm reminded of this quote by Tolstoy. It speaks of morality, but I think the same is true of the philosophical foundations of modern Western empirical science:

"The attempts to found a morality apart from religion are like the attempts of children who, wishing to transplant a flower that pleases them, pluck it from the roots that seem to them unpleasing and superfluous, and stick it rootless into the ground. Without religion there can be no real, sincere morality, just as without roots there can be no real flower."

Blogger YIH March 20, 2017 12:42 PM  

OT: Passing this along: https://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/2017/03/19/suggestions/
Note the last entry on the list :)

Blogger tuberman March 20, 2017 12:45 PM  

61.

shorter term question (hopefully): When will we see another non-Marxist pope?

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) March 20, 2017 12:48 PM  

Perhaps one day they'll even stop babbling in ignorance long enough to actually learn something.

Given enough time + chance, they could evolve.

Blogger David-2 March 20, 2017 12:48 PM  

Knowing little about this, can you point me to some kind of explanation that Christianity introduced a notion of "linear time" (that led to science) ... also, if that was implied (I'm not sure) how that notion was missing from Asian cultures?

Similarly for the belief that mathematics forms the substrate of the physical world.

Even in my ignorance of Christian theology the rest of the points sound not only plausible but probable, that is, that those are features of Christian theology and that led the medieval Christian world to develop science.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) March 20, 2017 12:52 PM  

Knowing little about this, can you point me to some kind of explanation that Christianity introduced a notion of "linear time" (that led to science) ... also, if that was implied (I'm not sure) how that notion was missing from Asian cultures?

In the beginning, God...

There was morning and evening...

Blogger S1AL March 20, 2017 12:52 PM  

@Stickwick -

Do you believe that remains true at current population densities? My observation is that the number of technological breakthroughs in the last hundred years, just from the United States, indicates that trend didn't hold.

Regardless, "more consistent" would likely be better phrasing. The field I studied, metallurgy, demonstrates that sort of consistent development.

Blogger S1AL March 20, 2017 12:55 PM  

@Paradigm - 500 years ago, Mexicans were still offering human sacrifices to a pagan Sun god. That's actually a pretty remarkable shift to today.

Blogger tuberman March 20, 2017 12:56 PM  

67. Josh,

In the beginning, God...

There was morning and evening..

Sorry, Josh, that's still circular time, or time as seasons or sunlight/sunset. Even tribal people know circulaer time.

Blogger James Dixon March 20, 2017 12:57 PM  

> Belief is waning and "nones" are increasing in number because the historic claims behind christianity are increasingly untenable in light of experience and science.

Exactly what core beliefs of Christianity are more untenable than they ever were? That a divine child was born of a virgin? That he was crucified and buried, and then rose from the dead?

> Any efforts to make America and Europe great are doomed unless they are centered around Truth

The fact that you use that terminology shows how little you know of or understand Christianity. "I am the way and the truth and the life."

Anonymous Damn Crackers March 20, 2017 1:00 PM  

Do these assumptions answer the questions why science flourished in Western Christendom and not Eastern Christendom?

Blogger S1AL March 20, 2017 1:01 PM  

@tuberman - You're ignoring the rest of the passage: "and then God ceased from his labor". The notion of a Divine Creator, without equal, who called the universe into existence ex nihilo, is unparalleled. The notion that creation was accomplished in an orderly fashion, with intent, is unparalleled. The notion that history is moving from a distinct, purposeful beginning to a distinct, declared end is unparalleled.

Anonymous Jeff March 20, 2017 1:01 PM  

The size of my head has dropped considerably since I lost weight.

I feel like my IQ has increased, though.

Blogger Desiderius March 20, 2017 1:01 PM  

Vox,

That's a good list.

I'd add the Gospel, i.e. the good news of the forgiveness of sins, which lowers the stakes involved in critical self-reflection, fostering continual self-improvement. It's also facilitates trust beyond kin networks.

Blogger Markku March 20, 2017 1:02 PM  

Sorry, Josh, that's still circular time, or time as seasons or sunlight/sunset. Even tribal people know circulaer time.

And the evening and the morning were the first day.

And the evening and the morning were the second day.

And the evening and the morning were the third day.

...

That is linear time.

Blogger S1AL March 20, 2017 1:03 PM  

@Damn Crackers - You mean the portion of Christendom rent asunder by the onslaught of Islam? Gee. I wonder.

Blogger Aeoli Pera March 20, 2017 1:03 PM  

Neo-Thomist4Lyfe

Blogger Andrew Taylor March 20, 2017 1:04 PM  

"I think that's going to be the fault line of the alt right in the future."

I already see that among my fellow Alt-Right friends, but I'm telling them to get with the program, and showing them why they too would prefer to be pagan in a Christian nation rather than a godless one.

Even I, as a Buddhist, definitively prefer Christian social ideals and agree with Plinio Corrêa De Oliveira that Christianity is the foundation for "the perfect civilization."

So far as I can see, Christianity is the only social program that has ever tempered women's hypergamous tendencies without abuse.

Anonymous Trump-Democrat March 20, 2017 1:04 PM  

The size of my head has dropped considerably since I lost weight.

I feel like my IQ has increased, though.


maybe you are just getting more oxygen to the brain

Anonymous KG March 20, 2017 1:07 PM  

Here is a brief, partial overview of what true scientists
were accomplishing in the 18th and 19th centuries.
All of them were Creationists:
Louis Agassiz (1807-1873): glacial geology, ichthyology.
Charles Babbage (1792-1871): actuarial tables, calculating
machine, foundations of computer science.
Francis Bacon (1561-1626): scientific method of research.
Robert Boyle (1627-1691): chemistry, gas dynamics.
Sir David Brewster (1781-1868): optical mineralogy,
kaleidoscope.
Georges Cuvier (1769-1832): comparative anatomy, vertebrate
paleontology.
Sir Humphry Davy (1778-1829): thermokinetics.
Jean Henri Fabre (1823-1915): entomology of living
insects.
Michael Faraday (1791-1867): electric generator, electromagnetics,
field theory.
Sir John A. Fleming (1849-1945): electronics, thermic
valve.
Joseph Henry (1797-1878): electric motor, galvanometer.
Sir William Herschel (1738-1822): galactic astronomy,
double stars.
James Joule (1818-1889): reversible thermodynamics.
Lord William Kelvin (1824-1907): absolute temperature
scale, energetics, thermodynamics, transatlantic cable.
Johannes Kepler (1571-1630): celestial mechanics, ephemeris
tables, physical astronomy.
Carolus Linnaeus (1707-1778): classification system,
systematic biology.
Brief History of Evolutionary Theory 21
Joseph Lister (1827-1912): antiseptic surgery.
Matthew Maury (1806-1873): hydrography, oceanography.
James C. Maxwell (1831-1879): electrical dynamics,
statistical thermodynamics.
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884): genetics.
Samuel F.B. Morse (1791-1872): telegraph.
Isaac Newton (1642-1727): calculus, dynamics, law of
gravity, reflecting telescopes.
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662): hydrostatics, barometer.
Louise Pasteur (1822-1895): bacteriology, biogenesis law,
pasteurization, vaccination, and immunization.
Sir William Ramsey (1852-1916): inert gases, isotropic
chemistry.
John Ray (1827-1705): natural history, classification of
plants and animals.
John Rayleigh (1842-1919): dimensional analysis, model
analysis.
Bernhard Riemann (1826-1866): non-Euclidean geometry.
Sir James Simpson (1811-1870): chloroform, gynecology.
Sir George Stokes (1819-1903): fluid mechanics.
Rudolph Virchow (1821-1902): pathology.

- from "Evolution Cruncher" available free online

Anonymous Grayman March 20, 2017 1:07 PM  

tuberman wrote:61.

shorter term question (hopefully): When will we see another non-Marxist pope?


I’m not a catholic, but if you follow what is going on around the pope and college of cardinals, that holy organization has been almost entirely subverted. The church will have to spring up from new roots of those who refuse to accept the converged form of Christianity. As someone previously said, it will have to be reborn from its current form of weak “martyrs” yearning for the afterlife, to a church that stands strong against all tides and embraces the world around them in all its wonders and unkowns

Rome and the pope may continue to stand but will do so a Marxists cuckolds of islam.

Blogger APL March 20, 2017 1:08 PM  

Of Topic but topical..

Comey: I want to underscore something my friend Mike Rodgers said; "leaks of classified information are serious serious federal crimes for a reason, they should be investigated and where possible prosecuted in a way that reflects that seriousness."

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 20, 2017 1:08 PM  

A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents wrote:When will we start to see these leaps of science from such Christian nations as Mexico, Venezuela, Guatamala, Nigeria, Uganda and so forth?
The phrase "necessary but not sufficient" is a novel discovery to Paradigm. He will need to contemplate this.

David-2 wrote:Knowing little about this, can you point me to some kind of explanation that Christianity introduced a notion of "linear time" (that led to science) ... also, if that was implied (I'm not sure) how that notion was missing from Asian cultures?
Asian cultures view time as essentially circular, not linear. The Great Wheel of Buddhism is a symbol of this. Souls are recycled, history goes through its cycles and eventually (over hundreds of thousands of years) it all goes around in a huge circle to wind up right back where it started. The same is true of meso-American cultures and pre-classical Greek society. As well as Kabbalism.
This is why the goal of Buddhism is to escape the cycle, even at the cost of annihilation of self. Because it's pointless and degrading.
Of the great religions, only European Paganism, Tengrism and the monotheistic religions descended from ancient Judaism view time and history as having a literal fixed beginning and a literal end-of-it all end.

BTW, we need a different word for ancient Judaism. It's too easy to conflate modern Talmudic Judaism with what the Israelites practiced.

Anonymous MendoScot March 20, 2017 1:09 PM  

Stickwick wrote:S1AL: In my field -- astrophysics -- Chinese papers are largely ignored. Partly for the reason described above, and partly because there is so much corruption in Chinese research that you simply can't trust the work.

I can confirm this for the neurosciences, as well.

Stilicho wrote:1) logically, the CIA should have a program of targeted assassinations of Christian missionaries in China

Hah! My Chinese Christian friends have asked me "Why does the West continue to sed us missionaries? They should be evangelizing their own people!"

Blogger James Dixon March 20, 2017 1:09 PM  

> Lack of individualism is a major part. Do not stand out.

The Japanese have a saying. “The nail that sticks out gets hammered down.” https://www.tofugu.com/japan/conformity-in-japan/

Blogger Markku March 20, 2017 1:09 PM  

Gen 5:3 When Adam had lived a hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.
4 The days of Adam after he became the father of Seth were eight hundred years; and he had other sons and daughters.
5 Thus all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.
6 When Seth had lived a hundred and five years, he became the father of Enosh.
7 Seth lived after the birth of Enosh eight hundred and seven years, and had other sons and daughters.
8 Thus all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years; and he died.
9 When Enosh had lived ninety years, he became the father of Kenan.
10 Enosh lived after the birth of Kenan eight hundred and fifteen years, and had other sons and daughters.
11 Thus all the days of Enosh were nine hundred and five years; and he died.
(...)

THAT is linear time.

Blogger Jack Ward March 20, 2017 1:10 PM  

Drat Stickwick. Another book to get and read [Soul of Science] I will never, ever catch up. I'm no Vox, able to exist on 2 hours sleep a night [I make do on 4] and he can leap tall buildings and command the dark hordes.

Blogger S1AL March 20, 2017 1:12 PM  

@Snidely - "Mosaic Judaism". It's an "accurate and insulting" two-fer.

Anonymous Grayman March 20, 2017 1:17 PM  

Let there be light

Christian antagonism towards the scientific method is ignorant on the part of those who demonstrate the antagonism, note I’m not saying it is inherent to Christianity, it is a personal flaw. We can say to our smart phones “Google, Text Bob, What time is lunch” and bob magically receives a message. The infrastructure behind that statement that allows it occur is beyond a large majority of the people who use it. Yet I say “message bob” and he receives a message MAGIC……

Let there be light
It is a little mind that clings to “MAGIC” simply because we lack the understanding to comprehend the greater system. The pursuit of understanding of the universe is at a fundamental level a religious pursuit, the pursuit to understand GOD. Those who would fear such investigation and pursuit of knowledge are often fearful little minds that hunger for power and using the fear of the unknown to pursue that power.

Next time you use your phone for a voice command consider Let there be light

Blogger Solaire Of Astora March 20, 2017 1:18 PM  

I'm skeptical insofar as in the bible Satan is the one who puts humanity on its current path of advancement and in the Book of Enoch the teachers of early humanity are angels acting in direct disobedience to God. Even if the book is apocryphal, Jude quoted it so the early Christians certainly believed it. When the languages were confused at Babel, it was done because men could do whatever they imagined. Christianity values truth and truth is essential to science, but so is the pain of 'fallen' man. From animal to introspective tortured creatures working to make their lives easier. Armageddon, man against God, wouldn't even be technically possible without the technology to cast down the host and the stars (angels) to the ground, which in Daniel is said to happen. The spiritual battle takes places in the scientific arena more than any other place and it's by the grace of God noble Christians were the first to get us this far.

Blogger Markku March 20, 2017 1:25 PM  

"Teachers"... I'm guessing you haven't actually read the Book of Enoch but you've seen a verse taken out of context by the Gnostics.

1Eno 7:3 Then their leader Samyaza said to them; I fear that you may perhaps be indisposed to the performance of this enterprise;
4 And that I alone shall suffer for so grievous a crime.
5 But they answered him and said; We all swear;
6 And bind ourselves by mutual execrations, that we will not change our intention, but execute our projected undertaking.
(...)
Eno 7:13 When they turned themselves against men, in order to devour them;
14 And began to injure birds, beasts, reptiles, and fishes, to eat their flesh one after another, (8) and to drink their blood.
15 Then the earth reproved the unrighteous.
8:1 Moreover Azazyel taught men to make swords, knives, shields, breastplates, the fabrication of mirrors, and the workmanship of bracelets and ornaments, the use of paint, the beautifying of the eyebrows, the use of stones of every valuable and select kind, and all sorts of dyes, so that the world became altered.
2 Impiety increased; fornication multiplied; and they transgressed and corrupted all their ways.
3 Amazarak taught all the sorcerers, and dividers of roots:
4 Armers taught the solution of sorcery;
5 Barkayal taught the observers of the stars,
6 Akibeel taught signs;
7 Tamiel taught astronomy;
8 And Asaradel taught the motion of the moon,
9 And men, being destroyed, cried out; and their voice reached to heaven.
----

They "taught" them for the specific purpose of corrupting mankind.

Blogger Jack Ward March 20, 2017 1:26 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger plishman March 20, 2017 1:27 PM  

'Let "do what thou wilt" be the whole of the law' is the rule of Satanism.

This is reflected completely in the secular progressive doctrine of non (and anti-) discrimination.

It being easier to destroy than to create, when one acts indiscriminately - i.e. without discriminating, doing what thou wilt - then on balance disorder will increase. This is the project of evil, and is what we see in the west where the doctrine of non discrimination is law.

In the East, there is the doctrine that 'the nail that sticks up will be hammered down'.

Anonymous Stickwick March 20, 2017 1:28 PM  

Deplorable Paradigm: When will we start to see these leaps of science from such Christian nations as Mexico, Venezuela, Guatamala, Nigeria, Uganda and so forth?

Necessary conditions != sufficient conditions.

slarrow: The biggest assumption scientists really make in their work is this: we can find out.

Precisely. As Pearcey and Thaxton point out, you have to a priori assume the universe is knowable before you can test it. People often get this backwards, and think we know the universe is knowable because we set about testing that. That’s not at all the case. Science arose from faith in the knowability of the universe.

Blogger Student in Blue March 20, 2017 1:34 PM  

@Eduardo
I wish I could see a highly creative person working so I could understand somewhat of how their minds work. Just to have a glimpse.

From personal experience, a highly creative person is akin to a very intelligent person. They comprehend things intuitively in chunks that appear to other people as incomprehensible black boxes, and it's just "understood" to them, like how to move your arm.

So if you were to spot a highly creative person, you'd see someone jump from one concept/idea/thing to another in a method that makes no sense to you and somehow come out with something that "just works".

Blogger Jack Ward March 20, 2017 1:34 PM  

@38. Just watched movie The Accountant last evening. Excellent! Best thing Aflack done in a while. Hero is an autistic whose dad was a military officer who saw to it his son's development was driven by extreme martial arts training and a regime that parallel Ivan Throne closely. His autistic compensation was within the ability to run economic numbers very quickly. Thus, his nickname 'Accountant.'
Even my wife loved it and she shuns spy like shoot em ups. Plenty of action and some of the best movie screenplay I have ever seen.

Anonymous Stickwick March 20, 2017 1:37 PM  

David-2: Knowing little about this, can you point me to some kind of explanation that Christianity introduced a notion of "linear time" (that led to science)

It was St. Augustine in the 4th century who inferred that time must be linear based on the non-repeatable events described in the Bible, beginning with God’s creation of the universe and culminating with Jesus’ return and the destruction of the universe.

… also, if that was implied (I'm not sure) how that notion was missing from Asian cultures?

With few exceptions, non-Abrahamic traditions hold to a cyclical view of time. Astronomy in pagan cultures, including Greek and Chinese astronomy, was thus focused on ascertaining one’s place in the current cycle. That’s the basis of Greek and Chinese zodiacs.

Similarly for the belief that mathematics forms the substrate of the physical world.

As Pearcey points out, the Greeks were excellent mathematicians, but they didn’t believe math was "fully instantiated in the material world." That's obviously a non-starter for science, and we can probably blame Plato for it. The physical world was regarded as a sort of shabby approximation of ideal platonic "forms," and thus the Greeks didn’t expect that it would be mathematically precise.

In contrast, the biblical God is the Creator of matter itself.  As a result, He is in complete control of His starting materials, and can create the world exactly as He wants to.  This is the operative meaning of the doctrine of creation ex nihilo--that there was no pre-existing matter, with its own eternal, independent properties, limiting what God can do with it.  Consequently, there is nothing merely arbitrary or irrational in nature.  Its orderly structure can be described with mathematical precision.  In the words of physicist Carl von Weizsacker, "Matter in the Platonic sense, which must be ‘prevailed upon’ by reason, will not obey mathematical laws exactly."  On the other hand, "Matter which God has created from nothing may well strictly follow the rules which its Creator has laid down for it.  In this sense I called modern science a legacy, I might even have said a child, of Christianity.”

Blogger frigger611 March 20, 2017 1:40 PM  

@61

I believe Vox adequately addressed this yesterday in the post on Red Pill and the Alt-Rt,

#2 states, that the society must offer:

Structural support for systematically exploiting the conceptual contributions of the intellectual extreme.

This cannot happen in low trust societies where priority #1 is feeding the peasants so that they don't revolt.

Blogger pyrrhus March 20, 2017 1:42 PM  

Excellent points! I recall also that there are genes that seem to encourage innovation and non consensus thinking, which seem to be much more prevalent in the West. Christianity would have encouraged the spread of such genes.

Anonymous Damn Crackers March 20, 2017 1:45 PM  

@Stickwick - Plato's views on astronomy and matter come right out of the Republic. Although, Plato's inspiration might have taken a different view. Pythagoras claimed all of nature was made of numbers and mathematical ratios.

Anonymous Urban II March 20, 2017 1:49 PM  

This is why any efforts to make America and Europe great are doomed unless they are centered around Christianity.

Agreed!

Blogger Craig March 20, 2017 1:54 PM  

Stickwick probably knows this, but it's worth saying: there isn't a full-fledged academic consensus on science growing out of Christianity -- but there's nothing surprising about that; a full consensus is hard to achieve on anything in history.

Any historian of science should agree, though, that the Christian roots hypothesis has important proponents within the field -- its advocates are probably as reputable as its doubters. My impression is of something close to a consensus that the relations of Christianity and science are at least far more complicated than the old idea of an irreconcilable conflict. That hasn't fared at all well in the last generation or two: check out the short essay linked from David C. Lindberg's infogalactic page, for example, and note that it's 30 years old.

It's also a field of fruitful continuing study, as historians look at individual elements more closely. E.g. Toby Huff's excellent comparative monograph THE RISE OF EARLY MODERN SCIENCE: ISLAM, CHINA AND THE WEST (which suggests that canon law had a surprisingly important intellectual role) and Peter Harrison's THE FALL OF MAN AND THE FOUNDATIONS OF SCIENCE which (somewhat less persuasively) suggests that specific details of Calvinist theology were important in early scientific epistemology.

Anonymous Mr. Rational March 20, 2017 1:55 PM  

Windermere wrote:Belief is waning and "nones" are increasing in number because the historic claims behind christianity are increasingly untenable in light of experience and science.
That is my story to a "t".  @52 nobody indoctrinated me.  I overcame indoctrination alone.

@15 Must also agree.

S1AL wrote:You could begin by explaining why atheistic regimes consistently crash and burn, scientifically.
Please list the ones that aren't socialist/utopian.  Religion in general is obviously no help; the Hindus were anything but atheistic, but their civilization languished in stasis for millennia.

explain why atheist regimes consistently abandon Truth, while Christian regimes move towards Truth.
I see the opposite happening.  For decades, I've been watching so-called Christianity in the US go gung-ho for falsehood after falsehood.  It's been one more instrument of power speaking to truth.

fop wrote:Darwin's downfall was his assumption that evolution could be described mathematically.
"It's what you know that ain't so."  The sweep of a new allele through a population is easily modeled mathematically based on the reproductive advantage it confers.

Some Dude wrote:Autists have no risk taking, creativity and follow established rules reflexively.
My list of patents would beg to differ with you.  My thinking is MORE out of the box than most, as exemplified by what one of my professors said when I solved a group project problem in 30 seconds:  "I didn't mean to make it THAT easy!"

I've had flashes of what Nikola Tesla must have been doing all the time.  That's what wows me.

tuberman wrote:But Progressivism is leading to Failed Progress and even Destroyed Civilization.
Progressivism is just another dogma.  Science only works when it's free to search for truth and not constrained by dogma.

@81 Scientists who acquired their intellectual foundations before Darwin cannot be counted as creationists in good faith.  Creationism was already falling into disfavor at the dawn of the 19th, but there was no satisfactory replacement until the publication of "Origins".

OpenID dreadilkzee March 20, 2017 1:57 PM  

As noted in the video Whites tend to have a flatter curve compared to East Asians but also have higher testosterone levels. This may explain White's advancement in bursts and East Asian being more linear. High IQ + higher T may make whites better at channeling testosterone into beneficial activities.

However, look at South Korea. South Korea is around 29% Christian today and among their Eastern cousins they are the most likely to take risky ideas on. I've watched eSports and saw the South Korean's demolish China in many areas. Part of it being willingness to take risks that the other group would not.

Add in recent rise of companies like Samsung and Hyundai and it makes me wonder how much of that may be due to the impacts of Christianity in South Korea.

Blogger Peter Jackson March 20, 2017 2:00 PM  

...unless they are centered around Christianity.

What exactly does "centered around Christianity" mean in a political and legal context? Forced worship of Christ? Deporting atheists?

If it simply means not letting inbred 5th century Muslim fucks inside your borders, count me in.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 20, 2017 2:02 PM  

Mr. Rational wrote:That is my story to a "t".  @52 nobody indoctrinated me.  I overcame indoctrination alone.

That's so cute.

Blogger tuberman March 20, 2017 2:02 PM  

104.

Don't worry about it, I personally am not constrained by dogma.

Blogger Markku March 20, 2017 2:07 PM  

What exactly does "centered around Christianity" mean in a political and legal context? Forced worship of Christ?

I'd expect that it would realize like it did in Finland while we were still an officially Christian nation. Initially, blasphemy carried the death penalty, then life in prison, then less prison time, less and less, eventually slap on the wrist, and now nothing at all. Stores won't be open on Sundays, and there will be loud church bells on Sundays. Not much else.

Anonymous JI March 20, 2017 2:08 PM  

Doesn't really matter now that Asians have figured out that Success in Science = Big Buck$. That's all the motivation they need to outperform.

Anonymous Charlie Baud March 20, 2017 2:09 PM  

@104

"Science only works when it's free to search for truth and not constrained by dogma."

That's the most asinine thing I've read all week. All methods and disciplines are "constrained" (actually defined) by dogma. If it weren't for the dogma that the universe is a measurable and rational place, there would likely be no science. The fact that you believe in objective "truth" that must not be impeded shows you accept some sort of dogma.

Blogger Vernon March 20, 2017 2:10 PM  

"The Day the Universe Changed" by James Burke (book and ten part TV series) made the argument that the fundamental view of the universe, knowable vs unknowable, drove scientific discovery. And, that religion drove that fundamental view.

Excellent series. Worth watching if you can find it.

Blogger Peter Jackson March 20, 2017 2:10 PM  

Initially, blasphemy carried the death penalty, then life in prison, then less prison time, less and less, eventually slap on the wrist, and now nothing at all

Such are the ever-evolving laws of the eternal God that lives outside of space and time. And people think we atheists are irrational...

Anonymous Damn Crackers March 20, 2017 2:12 PM  

@103 Craig

About the Calvinist influence, all one has to do is read Robert Merton's Science, Technology and Society in 17th-Century England. He basically applies Weber's Protestant Work Ethic to the history of science.

Blogger Markku March 20, 2017 2:13 PM  

Such are the ever-evolving laws of the eternal God that lives outside of space and time.

The Bible doesn't even address the concept of how to execute a state religion with one word. It's not that kind of a religion.

Blogger tuberman March 20, 2017 2:13 PM  

Mr. Rational,

Tell me your myths about how SCIENCE works, and why real progress in science and civilization is so...so halting? All because of DOGMA? What a joke. A simple-mind created joke.

Blogger S1AL March 20, 2017 2:15 PM  

@Mr. Rational -

Why do you get to pick and choose which atheist regimes count? That's just intellectually dishonest. Furthermore, I challenge you to name a single atheistic regime that falls outside those criteria.

As for the embrace of falsehoods, are you simply ignoring the trend *away* from Christianity in America? That's not an accident. Even the purported "Christians" embracing the popular falsehoods will gladly state that they don't actually believe the Bible or any Christian tradition - it's a cultural relic for them.

It took 15 years for Germans to decline from 99% Christian to 88% Christian, in which time period an insane atheist/neo-pagan cult took power, assumed a path of "Nazi Science", embraced mass murder, destroyed family norms, and sent Europe into a spiral of destruction from which it never recovered.

Blogger Mark March 20, 2017 2:15 PM  

Great piece! I remember being amazed considering this relationship between biblical Christianity and science. I heard it first from Arthur Custance, an amazing mind whose writings have been hidden, made obscure and/or relegated to the ash heap of banished thought.

Anonymous Stickwick March 20, 2017 2:15 PM  

Damn Crackers: Pythagoras claimed all of nature was made of numbers and mathematical ratios.

That they did. When I was an atheist studying physics and math, I thought Pythagorean mathematical religiosity was kind of compelling -- until I read about how nutty the Pythagoreans were. Great mathematicians, but kind of fruit-loops about a lot of other things.

Blogger frigger611 March 20, 2017 2:16 PM  

"I see the opposite happening. For decades, I've been watching so-called Christianity in the US go gung-ho for falsehood after falsehood. It's been one more instrument of power speaking to truth."

@104 Mr Rational.

Exactly, but you reveal the greater truth here. "So-called" Christianity is not the real McCoy. Fake Christianity. Churchian Feelgoodism.

Chasing, adopting, and revering falsehood are the works of a people who follow someone, and some thing else. Hint: it's not Christ.

Blogger Markku March 20, 2017 2:18 PM  

Christianity as state religion emerges from democracy, not from anything in the actual contents of the religion. If the nation wants Christian laws, they can have them just as well as secular laws. The Bible doesn't care. Though the nation would probably be better off with Christian laws.

Anonymous Jay Will March 20, 2017 2:21 PM  

On current trends by 2050 church ministers will be getting fined for refusing gay gang bang pornographers the right to shove crucifixes up their arses in their church and film it for progressive viewing pleasure.

Its not enough to boycott, their careers, livelihoods and even lives have to be taken, lawfully of course.

Blasphemers are executed, its how you keep it pure.

Islam will NEVER allow this for all eternity to be done to their sacred things. You would have to kill them before they submit.

The first Muslim baker to bake a gay wedding cake won't live for more than a day. Hundreds of thousands all across the world would be ready and willing to kill him for his blasphemy.

The globalist plan is best summed up with the title The Domestication of the Human Animal. Destroying religion as with nationalism/tribalism is part of the unfortunately painful process. Islam is to fight Western nationalists to the death for the betterment of humanity.

Its.Not.Going.To.Work. Nature will find a way.

Blogger Theproductofafineeduction March 20, 2017 2:22 PM  

@106

I'm assuming you genuinely having a hard time grasping this and not acting intentionally obtuse on the matter. It means a society organized around Christian morality. Picture society 50 to 100 years ago. I don't recall anything bad happening to atheists other than disapproval from your neighbors.

It will mean the atheist have to suffer through hearing merry Christmas, reading "In God We Trust" on currency, politicians mentioning God in speeches, the off chance a teacher might have a picture of Jesus in her classroom and society not giving a fuck when an atheist complains.

Anonymous kfg March 20, 2017 2:23 PM  

The Eastern mind will filter it's understanding of Christianity through Lao Tzu and Confucius, not through Pythagoras, Aristotle, Archimedes, Eratosthenes, et al.

The first translation of the OT was into Greek. The NT was written in it. The Greeks were critical in both accepting and filtering Christianity to the West.

Because much of the list was already in Greek minds.

It is absent from the Eastern, which will read the Bible and see fatalism, collectivism and socialism, because it's there to be found, and that's what they always find.

Anonymous Stickwick March 20, 2017 2:24 PM  

Peter Jackson: And people think we atheists are irrational…

Atheism is inherently irrational.

In terms of what it would look like to center on Christianity our efforts to once again make the West great, it means recognizing that Christianity is the foundation of most of what you value about the West, even if you are not personally Christian. It means not tearing down Christian traditions and institutions and trying to replace them with inferior secular traditions and institutions. And it means that those of us who are Christian should do our best to evangelize people like you.

Blogger S1AL March 20, 2017 2:29 PM  

@kfg -

That's just silly. The Greeks couldn't even decide if Zeus was omnipotent, if reality was mathematical, or that infanticide is evil.

Blogger tuberman March 20, 2017 2:32 PM  

125.

Agreed, it's about civilization, and stopping the coming war of everybody against everybody. Egaltarianism = "Here comes everyone," (Finnigan's Wake) = total chaos and the complete dissolution of all, or the war between everyone.

Anonymous kfg March 20, 2017 2:35 PM  

@126:

MPAI. Even Christian P. Some Greeks had concluded that the universe was mathematical and had measured the diameter of the Earth hundreds of years before Christ.

And a critical step in the West becoming scientific was the Church embracing Aristotle.

Anonymous LastRedoubt March 20, 2017 2:35 PM  

Bloody Hell.

This thread all by itself has given me several books to read and far too much to look up to be good for my workday.

Always an education here....

Ok, that's pretty much why I hang around.

Anonymous Avalanche March 20, 2017 2:38 PM  

@92 "9 And men, being destroyed, cried out; and their voice reached to heaven.
----
They "taught" them for the specific purpose of corrupting mankind."

So, we WERE intended to remain ignorant and nekkid in Eden?

I'd much rather try to thread the difficult path between being cows in an Edenic pasture and struggling with the benefits, trade-offs, and detriments of an educated/educable and free(r) life!

Blogger S1AL March 20, 2017 2:38 PM  

@kfg - And some Chinese had a seismic sensor before the British had a reasonable written language. Your comments are particularly ironic in that they are precisely what you condemn - an embracing of fatalism and collectivism.

Blogger Ostar March 20, 2017 2:40 PM  

Chinese think tank (government sponsored) says Christianity is what made the West successful.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread671287/pg1

Christianity Plays Decisive Role in China’s Economic Boom, Study Finds
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/01/06/christianity-plays-decisive-role-in-chinas-economic-boom-study-finds/

Anonymous Eduardo March 20, 2017 2:43 PM  

Student in Blue

Studying Math taught me that, if this demonstration is correct but I can't understand why, my mind will eventually find a way. I might not be that good in articulating concepts but after some time it starts to become natural to think like that.

Or at least it has been so for quite some time. If only There was this other worldly mind for me to observe!

And no, none of us here fall in That category except when it comes to fully understanding Vox's personal Philosophy, now that! Is pretty damn annoying.

Anonymous Avalanche March 20, 2017 2:44 PM  

@94 "'Let "do what thou wilt" be the whole of the law' is the rule of Satanism."

And yet: 'And it harm none, do what thou wilt" is the rule of Pagaism.

(From a secular standpoint, which is where I am standing) Satanism is the (intentional) corruption of Christianity. You cannot HAVE satanism without Christianity to rebel *against*. (Thus, its frequent appeal to teens.) (And, thus, it's not real. Were there nothing to rebel against, there would be nothing there.)

Paganism is an attempt (I won't argue whether it is, or can ever be, successful: not my monkeys, not my circus!) to separate from Christianity and create a religion incorporating the good and avoiding the ... undesired as well as the bad.

Anonymous kfg March 20, 2017 2:47 PM  

"Your comments are particularly ironic in that they are precisely what you condemn - an embracing of fatalism and collectivism."

Observation is not endorsement.

Blogger S1AL March 20, 2017 2:51 PM  

@kfg - You misunderstand: the statement "they will always embrace fatalism" *is pretty precisely fatalistic*.

Anonymous EH March 20, 2017 2:51 PM  

@57 VD
"Always nice to see that atheist gammas are reading the blog. Perhaps one day they'll even stop babbling in ignorance long enough to actually learn something."

Rhetoric is more effective when it has at least some contact with reality, Vox. You're usually better at it than that. I'm not an atheist. That in no way implies support for Stickwick's incoherent arguments nor anyone's absurd theology.

You'll all believe what you like, anyway. If the history of religious disputation shows anything, it's that arguments on the matter rarely shift people's views except in the opposite direction intended. I wrote not to convince, but to say I found the assertions Stickwick made to be not only unconvincing in their intended aim, but inclining me to the opposite view. That may actually swing more people to Stickwick's side than his own words did, but so what? As you say, MPAI.

Blogger Some Guy March 20, 2017 2:54 PM  

@15

and general dishonesty about its history

This one really made me laugh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS8bzWTfs7A

Go check out the whole series. They have decent evidence for Noah's Ark and Sodom and Gomorrah on top of that. I'd love to see a real investigation into this put together. If nothing else, the collective sound of millions of mouth's hitting the floor would be fun to hear.

Anonymous kfg March 20, 2017 2:55 PM  

@134: "Satanism is the (intentional) corruption of Christianity."

From a secular standpoint, no, it is an assualt on Christianity and a demand, of one man's conception of it, to return to paganism.

Read the source. Hint: It isn't LaVey, who was a plagiarist.

Blogger Some Guy March 20, 2017 2:57 PM  

@137

" That in no way implies support for Stickwick's incoherent arguments nor anyone's absurd theology. "

Now you have to back up your assertion. Which arguments were incoherent? Leave the rhetoric at home on this one. Provable dialectic or walk.

Anonymous Eduardo March 20, 2017 3:00 PM  

An addendun...

Now then again... Maybe some of you are geniuses, I just haven't got the chance to see your work. Maybe that is it.

Or after thinking further, I might be confusing understanding someone's thinking using personal concepts with the true original concepts that tend to be far more complex, but in a given Scenario a genius only use a single part of that concept, thus looking like the thinking is simple but in fact it is a mish mash that only the Genius's mind could grasp.

Anonymous Broken Arrow March 20, 2017 3:04 PM  

EH wrote:@57

You'll all believe what you like, anyway. If the history of religious disputation shows anything, it's that arguments on the matter rarely shift people's views except in the opposite direction intended.


Except you of course, snowflake.

Anonymous kfg March 20, 2017 3:05 PM  

@136: "You misunderstand: the statement "they will always embrace fatalism" *is pretty precisely fatalistic*."

No, it is observation. And if you go back and read my original comment I think you will find that the word was "see" (they already "embrace") and that it was in the present tense.

Perhaps things will be different in 500 or 1000 years, but if you hand out Bibles in China right now, they will see Lao Tzu and Confucius in it. They will need to find Aristotle. Not just the works, but the mind.

Blogger James Dixon March 20, 2017 3:08 PM  

> Christian antagonism towards the scientific method

The whole point of this thread is that Christianity was essential to the creation of the scientific method.

> Such are the ever-evolving laws of the eternal God that lives outside of space and time.

The laws against blasphemy are man's laws, not God's.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents March 20, 2017 3:11 PM  

@69 S1AL
@Paradigm - 500 years ago, Mexicans were still
offering human sacrifices to a pagan Sun god.


What changed 500 years ago? How did it change?

That's actually a pretty remarkable shift to today.

Well, yes and no.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Deplorable Cents March 20, 2017 3:18 PM  

@84 Snidely

The phrase "necessary but not sufficient" is a novel discovery to Paradigm. He will need to contemplate this.

Very intriguing! Please to be subscribing me to your newsletter mailing listserv! Thanks!

Blogger S1AL March 20, 2017 3:19 PM  

@kfg - Past performance is no guarantee of future performance. Your statement is fatalistic.

Your second mistake is the assumption that Christianity somehow requires Aristotle to inculcate science. This is foolish. All of the necessary precepts for science can be found in one statement: "Test everything. Hold on to what is good."

@Paradigm - Same thing that happened to the Irish 1500 years ago?

Blogger Miss Carnivorous March 20, 2017 3:25 PM  

I work with quite a few Chinese Christians. I admire them tremendously. Just as I admire Polynesian Mormons.

Anonymous kfg March 20, 2017 3:25 PM  

"Test everything. Hold on to what is good."

China applies that principle. That's why it remains Chinese.

Go take up a mission in China. You will be far from the first. You will, like those for hundreds of years before you, find it just as Chinese when you leave as when you arrived.

Foreign minds are foreign. You will not bring magic dirt with you that makes their minds your mind.

Anonymous Stickwick March 20, 2017 3:29 PM  

EH: I wrote not to convince, but to say I found the assertions Stickwick made to be not only unconvincing in their intended aim, but inclining me to the opposite view.

Nobody cares.

That may actually swing more people to Stickwick's side than his own words did, but so what? As you say, MPAI.

So far, all you've done is posture, and now you're admitting that your rhetoric is worse than ineffective. Amusing.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents March 20, 2017 3:29 PM  

@147 S1AL

@Paradigm - Same thing that happened to the Irish 1500 years ago?


No.

Blogger Doug Cranmer March 20, 2017 3:45 PM  

The mass embrace of communism would have seemed equally unlikely. I've found them to be a pragmatic people.

Blogger Peter Jackson March 20, 2017 3:47 PM  

The laws against blasphemy are man's laws, not God's.

How do you distinguish which items on the Christian menu of morality are man-made vs. God-made?

And this is not meant to disparage Christian morality, which I support. I just happen to believe it is ALL man-made.

Blogger Matthew Funk March 20, 2017 3:47 PM  

As a proud Asatruar and member of the Asatru Folk Assembly, I can still check off the entirety of the list. One prominent difference is that our gods didn't create natural law, they aren't supreme merely magnificent and obviously we don't cite the Bible as the reason claims must be tested. Asatruar and Christians can stand back to back and fight these battles together. Viva Le West. Hail to my gods and yours.

Belief that the universe was created and ordered by a transcendent, rational mind
Belief that the universe is lawful and knowable
Belief in the reality of the physical world
Belief that the physical world is of value
Viewing physical work as noble, as a divine calling
The Biblical admonishment to test claims
Viewing the study of nature as a proper form of worship
Belief in linear time
Belief that mathematics forms the substrate of the physical world

Anonymous BBGKB March 20, 2017 3:54 PM  

500 years ago, Mexicans were still offering human sacrifices to a pagan Sun god.

You might not want to take your kids to see the Mighty Morphing Power Dyke who scissors bad girls to death.

https://www.yahoo.com/movies/power-rangers-breaks-ground-first-gay-big-screen-130607222.html

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 20, 2017 3:56 PM  

What happened to the meso-Americans 500 years ago is that they discovered that the ultimate sacrifice had already been made, and they could participate in that sacrifice in the present through the Mass. They did not have to make any more, lesser, sacrifices, that was unnecessary. That's why the bulk of Mexico, including most importantly the priests, converted to the Catholic Faith over a period of a few years.

No doubt Paradigm has a secular answer, but that's because he's well indocrtinated, and quite dogmatic.

Anonymous kfg March 20, 2017 3:57 PM  

@152:

Contrariwise, I am not the least surprised that republicanism did not stick, because they are a pragmatic people.

What is the difference between Chinese socialism and Chinese feudalism? At ground level.

Blogger S1AL March 20, 2017 3:58 PM  

@Peter Jackson -

It's simple: legality is not morality. This is an issue that atheism can never overcome.

@Paradigm -

Prove it. So far all you've done is compare apples to oranges.

@kfg -

I see your China, and raise you South Korea. One had a significant, open, and influential Christian population. The other is your example. You don't get to pick one to analyze and ignore the other.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper March 20, 2017 4:01 PM  

Absolutely fascinating intro. It gave me a lot to think about re: my own world view since I'm not sure I believe more than four things on the entire list.

That aside, Pagan Rome was pretty advanced with running water, cement that's lasted for millennia , advanced surgery, mass production and a social order that could support a capital with a million inhabitants.

Christianity is a big plus the idea its a mandate now it seems awfully like a variation of Whig History to me.

Why I think we need it is less " source of advancement" but as a set of brakes on what we do with our science.

Some of the tech people are building is an extreme risk to society continuing. One slip up with nukes, some pissed off Omega with an home genetic engineering kit and dark net software, a few advanced in robotics and computers. Any of these can result in the annihilation of advanced Western societies or even possibly the entire human race.

And worse it may not be direct, the US White TFR has only been above replacement for a brief time since the 1970's . From 1980 to present, the White TFR has been an average of 1.77 , pretty standard European levels

And note to the we should go to space" people . Probably never going to happen. probably ever on any scale The very things that create modernity prevent it

We can fix the Feminism /Cultural Marxism but the weird conditions that allowed for the moon shot simply won't be repeated.

Even if when/ we expel the unwanted if we continue to advance in automation, the demand for well paid, moderate skill labor or possibly any labor other than starvation wages heads to zero.


Increased poverty is far more likely either by people being replaced with machines and having no income or by increased socialism.

if we don't figure out some way to make things work properly other than the hybrid of useless work and government (around 40% of US GDP in some kind of government) we have now. there will be no surplus for big stuff. It will all be a mix of security for the rich and welfare. Right now we can barely maintain roads and bridges and its going to get worse.

And no to repeat even a die-back of the die-verse won't help. It will destroy far too much and won't magically mean fast population growth or that people want huge families in teeming Euro-Favellas, I guess we called that a tenement . Frankly any rational moral person would opt for a smaller family with more of very limited resources put to whatever children are born so they don't have to repeat the same thing.

Economy of scale and efficiency are essentially killing fertility among anyone you can convinced to act against their families and their own best interests

As I've noted before, societies have social carrying capacity and as seen in Ireland, even when they continue , they go on to be smaller.

Also re: space colonies, Get back to me after China makes an advanced self sustaining colony of 50 million in the Gobi. That area at least has air and some water, human tolerable temperatures , radiation shielding and is on Earth

After that is up an running for some decades and if there ten or twenty trillion dollars lying around, we can try a Lunar or Mars colony. Maybe.

As it is, we must have some sort of civilization back up plan if there is no religious revival to at least maintain the borders and not have too much population shrinkage

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 20, 2017 4:03 PM  

Peter Jackson wrote:And this is not meant to disparage Christian morality, which I support. I just happen to believe it is ALL man-made.
Of course you do. Because you senselessly and irrationally limit your own ability to think and reason, shutting down anything outside your preconceived ideas before they make you challenge your dogma.

Blogger S1AL March 20, 2017 4:05 PM  

One thing that seems to be getting overlooked is that Christianity does not make all peoples equal - it does make them all better, however. The argument that a nation of literal cannibals has not advanced in 500 years as far as the most civilized pre-Christian nations have in 2000 years is worse than a poor argument - it's naked intellectual dishonesty.

Blogger tz March 20, 2017 4:05 PM  

Quick note: In another thread, I noted that Christanity was NECESSARY but not SUFFICIENT. Many of the items in the list are not obviously Biblical. Some are European-cultural.

@37 - Vox identified Alphas, Betas, Gammas, Deltas, Omegas, and Sigmas. Now we need to add epsilons! Incre-mental ability

@40 - Not merely the adventurous spirit, but the non-conformity. The Catholic Church saved civilization, but the nonconformist protestants launched it toward the galaxies.

@44 - High trust also allows high tolerance, since you can expect those with Utre ideas won't do bad things to you.

@47 I'm not sure if they are less creative, only that they creativity is suppressed so is a liability when it happens.

@48 - God as an opponent? Your arms too short to box with God.

@general - reproducible results mean you are arguing with how God created things, not with the person showing it.

@72 - Eastern detached in 1066, It was the west that fought the Crusades.

Maybe because even though the tree wasn't healthy you sawed off your branch. Same idea for why the confederacy didn't succeed in secession.


@73 - God ceased from his labors but not his management. The Non Serviam Union is still on strike.

@61 - When we don't need one to reintegrate SSPX

@85 Hah! My Chinese Christian friends have asked me "Why does the West continue to sed us missionaries? They should be evangelizing their own people!" One does not normally seek water in a desert. In this case the churchians are worse than Muslims.

Blogger Some Guy March 20, 2017 4:07 PM  

@Peter Jackson

"How do you distinguish which items on the Christian menu of morality are man-made vs. God-made? "

10 Commandments - made by God
Law of Moses - dictated to Moses by God and then removed by Christ on the cross Col 2:14
Words given by Jesus - direct from the source

Everything else in the Bible exists to shine light on this part of scripture. Pretty simple really.

Anonymous kfg March 20, 2017 4:10 PM  

@ S1AL" "One had a significant, open, and influential Christian population."

And? Invoking Christ is not the same as thinking Western. As Christ moves east, Amida gains strength. One can say "Christ" and think "Amida."

To cross the streams, I have lived with Zapotec. They are nominally Catholic, but when they think "Christ" the thought is not at all an Irish thought.

In fact, they hardly ever actually think Christ. They have incorporated the Holy Mother into their native religion.

Anonymous Tanjil Bren March 20, 2017 4:12 PM  

"The answer is well known amongst historians of science: it's Christianity."

Very much agreed.

Similarly, students of economic history (and the success of the European nation states) would be hard pressed not to reach an almost identical conclusion.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper March 20, 2017 4:14 PM  

S1AL wrote:One thing that seems to be getting overlooked is that Christianity does not make all peoples equal - it does make them all better, however. SNIP

That might be the single most important reason a revival of Christianity.

Blogger Theproductofafineeduction March 20, 2017 4:26 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous EH March 20, 2017 4:26 PM  

@137 and others demanding references, Stickwick's post quoted by Vox doesn't have any, so none are needed to refute the claims that that list of beliefs is characteristic of Christianity rather than of Western European thought. The two are different; Christianity has been practiced from the beginning outside Western Europe.

If European non-Christians are more likely than non-European Christians to hold these beliefs, then they probably have more to do with genetic propensities than religious doctrine.

The claim that Christianity is the cause of the mental propensities that allowed science to originate and flourish in Europe is implicitly claiming that the environment has more effect on these propensities than genetic heritage. My view is that genetics is responsible for allowing both the invention of science and the special characteristics of the Catholic / Protestant forms of Christianity.

Converting Africans or even Chinese to Christianity won't make them scrupulous or individualistic, at least not for many generations.

Blogger tz March 20, 2017 4:27 PM  

@156, mediated through the gracious advocate, mediatrix of all graces, "Our Lady of Guadaloupe".

@155 Atropos!

@159 - Rome did not have systematic science. Experiment and verify the results. Their discoveries were sui generous in their paradigm. They sought utility, not understanding.

@161 Christianity seeks to get people to get to heaven. Making earth less hellish is a secondary benefit and only happens if people pray and sacrifice for it.

Blogger Theproductofafineeduction March 20, 2017 4:29 PM  

@145

You failing to account the time frame to go to a civilized society upon the introduction of civilizing forces such as Christianity. So the natives went from sacrificing people to parading around skeletons on their day of the dead. Take Halloween, which has it's origins in Celtic paganism, in a festival called Samhain which involved sacrifices up to human sacrifices? So upong the introduction of Christianity Saimhaim becomes Allhallows eve, and where witchcraft replaces human sacrifices, and now it just involves people dressing up in grotesque costumes and getting drunk. It took what, over a thousand years to get to that point?

Blogger S1AL March 20, 2017 4:29 PM  

@kfg -

"In fact, they hardly ever actually think Christ. They have incorporated the Holy Mother into their native religion."

Your entire argument falls apart right here. If it's not-actually-Christianity, it's certainly not going to have the same effects as Christianity.

Blogger Theproductofafineeduction March 20, 2017 4:32 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Theproductofafineeduction March 20, 2017 4:35 PM  

@168

Your willfully ignoring the effects that environment has on genetics. You don't see how banning first cousin fucking wouldn't some how change the genetics of a peoples in even a half dozen or so generations? Cousin marriage has empirically shown to result in people with genetic deficiencies not including a heightened risk to be functionally retarded.

Anonymous Avalanche March 20, 2017 4:40 PM  

@158 "I see your China, and raise you South Korea. One had a significant, open, and influential Christian population. The other is your example. You don't get to pick one to analyze and ignore the other."

Because those two peoples are interchangeable ciphers? Because there is no genetic (or epigenetic) difference? Because China and NK buckled under and submitted to communism, and SK fought back?

Is the difference Christianity, or some sort of openness to Christianity that 'fits' some people(s) and not others?

(Not arguing either side -- just not sure this is a good comparison.)

Blogger kaflick March 20, 2017 4:41 PM  

Many of the religions before Christianity, especially the eastern religions believed in circular time. The belief was that everything was in cycles that repeated endlessly. There was literally "nothing new under the sun". That was one of the mind blowing ideas that Christianity claimed, there was a unique moment in time where God became man and died to forgive sins, never to be repeated, never to need to be repeated.

Anonymous kfg March 20, 2017 4:45 PM  

"If it's not-actually-Christianity, it's certainly not going to have the same effects as Christianity."

Q.E.D.

Now all you have to do is take the last step and realize that just because someone is a "real" Christian doesn't imply that they think like you.

Accepting salvation is not the same thing as accepting scientific thinking. If Jemisin is half savage, the Chinese are 100% Chinese, and then some.

And, for that matter, most Westerners couldn't scientific method piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel.

Blogger James Dixon March 20, 2017 4:47 PM  

> How do you distinguish which items on the Christian menu of morality are man-made vs. God-made?

I see Some Guy has already given a fairly good answer. If it's in the Christian Bible and says it's a general command from God or Christ to his followers (not a specific time and place command, and I'll admit distinguishing which is which is not always a trivial matter) then it's God's law.

> And note to the we should go to space" people . Probably never going to happen.

So he human race will end here on the planet we were born on at the next extinction event? Depressing, but possible. Personally, I'm more optimistic though.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash March 20, 2017 4:48 PM  

EH wrote:If European non-Christians are more likely than non-European Christians to hold these beliefs, then they probably have more to do with genetic propensities than religious doctrine.
Simply false. Nobody comes into the game without an existing culture, from which they elaborate and/or diverge.

The claim that Christianity is the cause of the mental propensities that allowed science to originate and flourish in Europe is implicitly claiming that the environment has more effect on these propensities than genetic heritage.
Again, simply false. It's a stunning leap, actually, and not necessarily or demonstrably true.

My view is that genetics is responsible for allowing both the invention of science and the special characteristics of the Catholic / Protestant forms of Christianity.
You "view" is a prejudice, not a reasoned conclusion.

Blogger Happy LP9 March 20, 2017 4:50 PM  

Wow! Great!

I adore Stickwick, awesome post!

Blogger Lone Catholic March 20, 2017 4:52 PM  

Although a case could be made that scientific and economic advancement is a result of divine grace, the main (and really only) reason to become Christian is to save one's soul. All who die as non-Christians go to Hell.

Whatever the eventual fate of the West, its inhabitants must convert to Christianity regardless. If it does not, then however advanced western society is, the souls of those inhabitants will enter Hell anyway, and stay there forever.

Anonymous Stickwick March 20, 2017 4:56 PM  

EH: @137 and others demanding references, Stickwick's post quoted by Vox doesn't have any, so none are needed to refute the claims that that list of beliefs is characteristic of Christianity rather than of Western European thought.

First, you referenced your own comment. Second, it's risible that you even attempt to distinguish Christianity from Western European thought; the latter is inseparable from the former. And, no, you don't get to play that game here. If you're disputing a claim, then you're obligated to back it up. See the rules of the blog.

Anonymous kfg March 20, 2017 4:58 PM  

" . . . the main (and really only) reason to become Christian is to save one's soul."

The Zapotec go to mass and take communion.

Anonymous Stickwick March 20, 2017 4:59 PM  

That should have been "distinguish Western European thought from Christianity." Christianity exists qua itself. Western European thought, however, is inseparable from Christianity.

Blogger S1AL March 20, 2017 5:00 PM  

@Avalanche -

The topic at hand was "East Asians, Christianity, and Science". Comparing the openly influential Christianity of South Korea to China's recently-reached underground church is an absolutely necessary discussion for those criteria.

@kfg -

I know many people of East Asian descent who've worked in the sciences or mathematics-based disciplines. This nonsense about "foreign minds" is meaningless in that context. I've also seen the results of Christianity on many of those same people. It's not a genetic issue.

And again, the scientific method is this simple: "Test everything. Hold on to what is good." That people prioritize their feelings over empiricism does not mean they are unable to use the scientific method - it merely means that they choose not to do so.

Anonymous kfg March 20, 2017 5:04 PM  

"I know many people of East Asian descent who've worked in the sciences or mathematics-based disciplines."

So do I, as I've know many Buddhists of Western descent.

You do not accept Vox's premise that lowering the average IQ of a nation necessarily degrades it, even if there are the same number of smart people?

Anonymous kfg March 20, 2017 5:06 PM  

"And again, the scientific method is this simple: "Test everything. Hold on to what is good.""

And actually, no, it isn't.

Blogger S1AL March 20, 2017 5:12 PM  


"You do not accept Vox's premise that lowering the average IQ of a nation necessarily degrades it, even if there are the same number of smart people?"

This has nothing at all to do with anything being discussed.

And yes, that is the entirety of the scientific method. If you don't think so, feel free to demonstrate how it isn't.

Blogger Blastman March 20, 2017 5:18 PM  

… Some may want to believe that mess of disjointed after-the-fact rationalization, but it's nonsense. Christianity's positive effects on science were mostly indirect, while it had directly negative effects by its dogma, hierarchy's monopoly on theology, deference to authority, miracle-mongering, interference with advanced studies and publishing for non-clerics, insistence on supernatural explanations,

This is complete nonsense. It's basically a humanistic propaganda narrative by the left who have basically controlled most of the MSM media for more than the last century. In the Middle Ages, while among the uneducated classes there may have been a few people attributing some natural phenomena to God's actions, among the educated Christians, this type of thinking was frowned upon. In fact …

Wiki

The historian of science Ronald Numbers notes that the modern scientific assumption of methodological naturalism can be also traced back to the work of these medieval thinkers:

By the late Middle Ages the search for natural causes had come to typify the work of Christian natural philosophers. Although characteristically leaving the door open for the possibility of direct divine intervention, they frequently expressed contempt for soft-minded contemporaries who invoked miracles rather than searching for natural explanations. The University of Paris cleric Jean Buridan (a. 1295–ca. 1358), described as "perhaps the most brilliant arts master of the Middle Ages," contrasted the philosopher’s search for "appropriate natural causes" with the common folk’s erroneous habit of attributing unusual astronomical phenomena to the supernatural. In the fourteenth century the natural philosopher Nicole Oresme (ca. 1320–82), who went on to become a Roman Catholic bishop, admonished that, in discussing various marvels of nature, "there is no reason to take recourse to the heavens, the last refuge of the weak, or demons, or to our glorious God as if He would produce these effects directly, more so than those effects whose causes we believe are well known to us."[17]


Also …Info …

Enthusiasm for the naturalistic study of nature picked up in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries as more and more Christians turned their attention to discovering the so-called secondary causes that God employed in operating the world. The Italian Catholic Galileo Galilei (1564–1642), one of the foremost promoters of the new philosophy, insisted that nature "never violates the terms of the laws imposed upon her."[11]

Anonymous kfg March 20, 2017 5:23 PM  

"This has nothing at all to do with anything being discussed."

Certainly it does. We're talking about the effects on broader culture, not individuals. The fact that some Westerners have minds compatible with Eastern thought does not make the West Eastern.

And vice versa.

"If you don't think so, feel free to demonstrate how it isn't."

"Good" is a nonsense word in science. It has no meaning. It is outside the scope of.

The scientific principle is "test everything, keep what is fact." The Pythagorean Theory is neither good nor bad. It just is. It could well be something else, and that wouldn't be bad, it just isn't.

It is the principle of wisdom to test everything and keep what is good.

Anonymous stan erickson March 20, 2017 5:27 PM  

You get too many comments, so the good ones are hard to find, and any individual making a good comment gets lost in the noise.
There are some obvious assumptions you make, which are fatal. One is that you refer to Christianity as a well-defined set of beliefs, and while you can try to specify what beliefs you think are important, it is really a dynamic phenomena, changing greatly since the days of its founding, and splintering on top of the dynamics. Another is that you seem to think IQ measures something other than IQ testing ability. My alternative is that it considers about 1/3 of what intelligence really is, as defined by problem-solving ability.

Blogger S1AL March 20, 2017 5:46 PM  

@kfg -

East or West, it doesn't matter. Christianity and Christian thought are still the necessary bases for science.

And "good" has many meanings, one of which is "having the necessary qualities". In the context of empirical science, that would mean "accurately describes reality". You're attempting to play semantic games and failing miserably.

Anonymous W. Lindsay Wheeler March 20, 2017 5:47 PM  

The Doric Greeks had moving statues on Crete. The definition of science is "to know the condition of that which is". Science is NOT technology. By certain, the Greeks had science and it was Greek philosophy, esp. Aristotle, that morphed into "natural philosophy" that gave birth to modern science.

Anonymous Stickwick March 20, 2017 5:57 PM  

Wheeler: By certain, the Greeks had science and it was Greek philosophy, esp. Aristotle, that morphed into "natural philosophy" that gave birth to modern science.

While it's true that modern science owes a tremendous debt of gratitude to the Greeks, particularly to Aristotle, the Greeks did not have science. They eschewed the idea that the world was measurable and trusted far too much in deductive reasoning to bother to test their assumptions and conclusions. That's why Aristotle ended up being wrong about so much in terms of physics.

Blogger tuberman March 20, 2017 6:09 PM  

190.

A Harvard Howard SJW yet.

Anonymous kfg March 20, 2017 6:12 PM  

"Christianity and Christian thought are still the necessary bases for science."

Necessary does not imply sufficient. Christianity has never been unique to the West.

"And "good" has many meanings . . ."

You are playing semantic games. Be careful you don't make God's moral law disappear in a puff of logic.

"In the context of empirical science . . ."

. . . it has no meaning. None. At all. Find a better argument.

You appear to be defending Christianity. Do you understand that I am not attacking it, like, at all?

Blogger Matthew March 20, 2017 6:35 PM  

Stickwick wrote:While it's true that modern science owes a tremendous debt of gratitude to the Greeks, particularly to Aristotle, the Greeks did not have science. They eschewed the idea that the world was measurable and trusted far too much in deductive reasoning to bother to test their assumptions and conclusions. That's why Aristotle ended up being wrong about so much in terms of physics.

Karl Popper wrote a good deal about the pre-Socratics (Thales, Anaximander, and Parmenides IIRC) and how they used deductive reasoning as a way to narrow down possibilities, what Popper calls "conjectures and refutations". Given a proposed theory, try to knock it down. We don't see so much of that in Plato and Aristotle, which is part of why they are featured in Popper's political work The Open Society and Its Enemies.

Blogger Beau March 20, 2017 6:40 PM  

it is really a dynamic phenomena, changing greatly since the days of its founding, and splintering on top of the dynamics.

Funny that. Luke 11:52 still reads the same. “Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered.”

Blogger Matthew March 20, 2017 6:43 PM  

"The claim that Christianity is the cause of the mental propensities..."

This is the key, whether it's disingenuous sleight-of-hand or an actual misunderstanding of the original claim.

Imagine for a moment the human races as blank slates (no giggling allowed). Then posit a system of religious doctrines, dogmatically believed, that encourage truth, curiosity, and confession; while discouraging cheating (and usury).

The argument is not that Christian society spontaneously generates scientific virtue, but that it constrains and directs human effort.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper March 20, 2017 6:48 PM  

kfg wrote:It is the principle of wisdom to test everything and keep what is good.

This is important though I'd add a 3rd criteria , an example.

Science says "Mass mind control through implants is possible"

Wisdom tells us its going to have bad results

Morality tells us if its Right or Wrong.

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