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Monday, March 13, 2017

Revisionist history fail

SteelPalm was attempting to pass off revisionist history on one of the very worst sites on the Internet to try to do that.
You know how Hitler could have definitely won the war? If he had spared his German Jewish scientists and also used the Jewish scientists in the territories he conquered.
That is completely false. There were more US-born Jewish scientists than foreign-born Jewish scientists working on the Manhattan Project. The idea that the Germans didn't succeed in making an atomic bomb due to "persecution of Jewish scientists" was not only a self-serving idea put forth by a Dutch-born Jew whose parents died during the Holocaust, but it wasn't even the primary reason he provided. Samual Goudsmit "concluded that the failure of the German atomic bomb project was attributable to factors such as bureaucracy, Allied bombing campaigns, the persecution of Jewish scientists, and Werner Karl Heisenberg's failed leadership."

Many of the foreign-born Jewish scientists were not from Germany. Hitler had already made his fatal mistake of invading Czechoslovakia and triggering the war with Britain and France by invading Poland before scientists such as Tellar, Segrè, and Szilard would have even been theoretically accessible to him, but the reality is that most of them were already working in the Allied West before 1933. Rudolf Peierls and Hans Bethe were both already at Cambridge on Rockefeller Foundation scholarships in 1930; Otto Frisch left for London when Hitler was elected in 1933.

How could Hitler have possibly spared scientists, much less used them, when they were already out of his reach before he came to power? And more importantly, Germany never had the industrial wherewithal to develop atomic technology and weaponize it; they simply didn't have the manpower or the materials to spare while they were already engaged in fighting a war on both fronts. The USA possessed every single advantage in the various relevant aspects, yet it still barely managed to produce three testable weapons before the end of the war.
Your cloying, whining rhetoric of the "I can't even!" variety aside, the Manhattan Project consisted of almost exclusively Jewish scientists and was headed by a Jewish scientist.
I really don't understand what SteelPalm is attempting to do here. His repeated and counterproductive attempts to defend his people by resorting to a false historical narrative is not going to make anyone think better of them. Quite the contrary, I would think.

The Manhattan Project was not "headed by a Jewish scientist". J. Robert Oppenheimer was the Scientific Director of the Los Alamos laboratory, he was not even one of the two head scientists of the project. Major General Leslie Groves headed the Manhattan Project, and his scientific advisors were Richard Tolman and James Conant. Los Alamos was only one of four major MP sites and it was considerably smaller than Oak Ridge.

There were 26 Jewish scientists of note involved in some way with the Manhattan Project. 13 were US-born, 13 were foreign born. Hans Bethe was also half-Jewish, but he is usually omitted because he was raised Protestant. These 26 men did not make up the near-entirety of the scientific personnel of the project; one of the "scientists" listed was not even a scientist, but an engineer still in college. Not only did these 26 "Jewish scientists" not make up the majority of the 6,000 scientists involved in the project, they didn't even make up the majority of physicists involved.

It is true that Jewish scientists, both US- and foreign-born, made vital contributions to the Manhattan Project. It is unlikely that the atomic bomb would have been completed in 1945 without them; it probably would have taken another year or three and therefore would never have been dropped in war. But to claim that Jewish scientists were "almost exclusively" responsible for it is utterly false and a tremendous insult to literally thousands of American scientists and engineers, to say nothing of the six British and Australian members of the vital MAUD Committee, without which the Manhattan Project would probably not have been created in time to factor into the history of WWII.

Ironically, the biggest single contribution to the Manhattan Project was probably made by a man who was not an American, was not Jewish, and although a scientist who later worked on the project in a scientific capacity, his unique and utterly vital contribution was entirely bureaucratic in nature.
When there was no reaction from America to the reports of the MAUD Committee, Mark Oliphant crossed the Atlantic in an unheated bomber in August 1941. He found that Lyman Briggs had not circulated the reports to the Uranium Committee, but had kept them in a safe. Oliphant then contacted Ernest Lawrence, James Conant, Enrico Fermi and Arthur Compton and managed to increase the urgency of the American research programmes. The MAUD Reports finally made a big impression. Overnight the Americans changed their minds about the feasibility of an atomic bomb and suggested a cooperative effort with Britain. Harold C. Urey and George Braxton Pegram were sent to the UK in November 1941, to confer but Britain did not take up the offer of collaboration. 
Remember, this took place almost exactly two years after the famous Einstein–Szilárd letter was delivered to FDR. The Manhattan Project was not inspired by that letter, as many incorrectly assume, but rather, by Oliphant's stubbornness in bringing the MAUD reports to the attention of the Uranium Committee. This should be obvious, because the budget for the project was approved by FDR in June 1942 and the Manhattan Engineer District was created two months later.

It also demonstrates there is considerable truth to the "for want of a nail" aphorism.

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147 Comments:

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr March 13, 2017 6:26 AM  

Yup. If there was one foreign-born scientist I'd call essential, it would be Fermi. Neither German nor Jewish.

Blogger Cataline Sergius March 13, 2017 6:52 AM  

The impression I have is that Germany didn't have the resources or the will to pursue the A Bomb.

Everyone today, looks back on the Manhattan project as something inevitable but at the time it was just another "secret weapon" project.

We had the luxury of being able to throw a shit load of money at a bunch side projects.

Nobody today seems to get just how economically weak Germany was when WWII broke out in Europe.

Consequently saying if only Hitler had kept enough Jews around he could have won the war is silly.

Blogger John rockwell March 13, 2017 6:54 AM  

What's your thoughts on Japan's immigration policy?

Blogger American Spartan March 13, 2017 7:01 AM  

The One Drop Rule of History:

If a single Jew had anything to do with (positive event X) then Jews must receive full credit for X. They participated in it, yay!

If a single Black had anything to do with (positive event X) then Blacks must receive full credit for X. They participated in it, yay!

If a single White had anything to do with (negative event Y) then Whites must shoulder eternal blame for Y. Oh those wicked Whites!

Blogger American Spartan March 13, 2017 7:01 AM  

John rockwell wrote:What's your thoughts on Japan's immigration policy?

A model for America going forward.

Blogger JWM in SD March 13, 2017 7:05 AM  

Talk about coincidence, I was just listening to an interview of Joseph P. Farrell this morning about this very subject.

Blogger Roger G2 March 13, 2017 7:12 AM  

Could have...*definitely* won the war?
That may be mistake number one. History is already such an enigma, with one seemingly insignificant event causing a chain of events to flow forth. No one can point to a historical cause and conclude, in any *definitive* sense whatsoever, its effects, any more than one can predict the future with any certainty.
Folly.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer March 13, 2017 7:16 AM  

Cataline Sergius wrote:

Nobody today seems to get just how economically weak Germany was when WWII broke out in Europe.

Consequently saying if only Hitler had kept enough Jews around he could have won the war is silly.


Not to mention Germany's strength wasn't mass production. Once they got into a war on multiple fronts they pretty much shot themselves in the foot. They were very good at producing some of the best military equipment, but they struggled to produce it quickly or cheaply. Once the war got into full swing it was all in on resources struggling to churn out enough normal equipment for the war effort. That made resources for "special projects" a little sparse.

Blogger SteelPalm March 13, 2017 7:19 AM  

Do you not see the two basic problems in your argument, Vox?

1. According to your own link from American Thinker, those 26 were simply the most famous Jewish scientists working on the Manhattan Project.

But there were a hell of a lot more than 26 of them. Even in a list of 77 prominent people working on the Manhattan Project (including 2 spies, 2 military commanders, the US Secretary of War at the time, and a businessman, so not all scientists);

http://www.nndb.com/group/738/000055573/

there are many not present in the American Thinker list.

Gregory Breit
Samuel Theodore Cohen (amusingly and incorrectly called "white" in the link, despite the last name and being born to Austrian Jews)
Martin Deutsch
Roy Glauber (a Nobel Prize winner)
Jerome Karle,
etc.

2. Science isn't measured by mere quantity, Vox. You should know that as well as anyone.

Arguably the most important and influential scientist on the Manhattan Project was Edward Teller, who was Jewish. (Either him or Fermi) Oppenheimer was easily top 5, and Feynmann and Neumann were top 10.

Anywho, it's telling that you have argued that the 1965 Immigration Act was the result of pernicious Jewish influence because of congressman Cellar, minimizing Senator Hart, Senator Ted Kennedy, and President Johnson and the 380+ whites who voted for it.

Yet, the Manhattan Project apparently had only a small, negligible contribution by the Jews.

Anonymous Some random guy March 13, 2017 7:20 AM  

The closest thing I can think of is that not going after Jews at all, might have had Einstein might not have ended up staying out of Germany and thus not signing his name to the letter that sparked the US to work on the atomic bomb. But it would probably have managed to get attention even without Einstein's signature. If I recall, his signature was only requested to help get eyes on it.

Not sure where I heard it, but the A bomb wasn't one of the projects that Nazi Germany even focused on. Not thinking it viable. Which could actually be the case for them with various issues happening at the time.

Blogger SteelPalm March 13, 2017 7:21 AM  

@4

If a single Jew had anything to do with (positive event X) then Jews must receive full credit for X. They participated in it, yay!

I agree that's bullshit, but so is the corollary; if a single Jew had anything to with (negative event X) then Jews must receive full blame for X. They participated in it, boo!

Anonymous andon March 13, 2017 7:21 AM  

a jew believed his own fairy tales?

Blogger SteelPalm March 13, 2017 7:29 AM  

I see you edited/expanded your post. I never claimed that the Manhattan Project had anything to do with Germany's policy towards Jews.

I stated that Germany's own nuclear program suffered from this policy, and, unrelated, the Manhattan Project was largely the work of Jewish scientists. (The vast majority of whom were non-German)

You can claim I overstated the Jewish influence on the Manhattan Project, but on a site where claiming the Bolsheviks were "85+% Jewish" and baptized Christians or atheists who are 75% white and 25% Jewish (a grandfather, no less) are "Jews" receives no admonishment, let alone a dedicated post, my rhetoric was understated, if anything.

Anonymous Carlos Danger March 13, 2017 7:30 AM  

Racial policies in the East lost Germany the war.

Blogger VD March 13, 2017 7:31 AM  

Do you not see the two basic problems in your argument, Vox?

There are no problems in my argument. Your statements are factually false and have been conclusively proven to be false. Were you lying or were you ignorant? Please inform us which was the case.

I am aware there were more than 26 Jewish scientists involved. But I have done sufficient research to safely conclude that they were not "almost exclusively" involved, nor were they the majority of scientists, or even the majority of physicists involved.

I repeat: your statements were factually false. Why are you even trying to defend them?

Science isn't measured by mere quantity, Vox. You should know that as well as anyone.

I do. And I also know that the Manhattan Project involved considerably more than science. It required 130,000 people, only 6,000 of whom were scientists. You are being evasive and going off on an irrelevant tangent.

Anywho, it's telling that you have argued that the 1965 Immigration Act was the result of pernicious Jewish influence because of congressman Cellar, minimizing Senator Hart, Senator Ted Kennedy, and President Johnson and the 380+ whites who voted for it.

It is a fact that Congressman Celler was the driving force behind the Immigration Act and that Jewish groups had been agitating for it for 40 years. It is overtly dishonest to claim that the con artist is no more responsible for his acts than the people to whom he sells the con.

One might more accurately say that it is telling that a Jew who has been caught publicly spreading lies would attempt to equate the actions of a con man with his victims.

Come on. Do you really want to mix it up rhetorically with me, of all people?

Anonymous Mark Auld March 13, 2017 7:34 AM  

VD's posts and DS last night were right on about Germany in WW2,had they consolidated power in Europe and stayed out of war with Russia and the U.S., the bomb would probably not been developed till much later.It begs the question would the Jewish state of Israel have even been created.

Blogger VD March 13, 2017 7:34 AM  

I never claimed that the Manhattan Project had anything to do with Germany's policy towards Jews.

Nor did I say you did.

I stated that Germany's own nuclear program suffered from this policy, and, unrelated, the Manhattan Project was largely the work of Jewish scientists.

Both statements are false. Germany's nuclear program could not have suffered from it, because the scientists were never accessible to Hitler. The Manhattan Project was not "largely the work of Jewish scientists". You clearly don't understand what the Manhattan Project was or grasp the distinction between theoretical work and weapons development.

Blogger Robert What? March 13, 2017 7:37 AM  

I read somewhere a long time ago - I don't know where and I don't know if was actual history or just the author's fancy - that the Nazis hearts were not in the development of the atom bomb because they considered it too horrible a weapon to use in real life - at least in the West.

Anonymous Faceless March 13, 2017 7:40 AM  

The King Tiger stands as witness that, even if the Germans could have gotten the theoretical work to split the atom, they lacked the industrial machinery required to convert theory into a usable weapon.

How many national labs do we have today just to keep the nukes in safe, working, usable order? And how much of that is theoretical physics, and how much of that is engineering?

Anonymous Steve March 13, 2017 7:42 AM  

I doubt Germany could've afforded to develop the atomic bomb in time to affect the outcome of the war. The Manhattan Project cost $2 Bn in 1940's money and soaked up the labour of 130,000 people. Diverting that much cash and manpower away from conventional wartime industry would've been ruinous for the Germans.

The British effort, codenamed Tube Alloys, was initially ahead of the Americans, but quickly faded because we simply couldn't afford to fight a world war and invest astronomical sums into atomic research and development.

Another problem Tube Alloys faced was that Britain was within bombing range of Germany, though at least we had Commonwealth allies such as Canada and Australia.

Nazi Germany might've been ruthless enough to test atom bombs in its occupied territories, but there was nowhere they could plausibly site incredibly expensive and fragile infrastructure like gaseous diffusion plants and atomic reactors that would've been safe from enemy bombers.

Incidentally, the British atom bomb project was inspired by the work of two Jewish physicists who had fled Hitler's Germany.

Blogger VD March 13, 2017 7:46 AM  

Incidentally, the British atom bomb project was inspired by the work of two Jewish physicists who had fled Hitler's Germany.

Not quite true. Frisch indeed left Germany in 1933 when Hitler became Chancellor, but Peierls had left Germany in 1929 and was already in the UK in 1933.

Anonymous Darth Dharmakīrti March 13, 2017 7:57 AM  

Niels Bohr once commented that an atomic bomb was impossible to manufacture, due to the unfathomable quantities of energy that would have to be expended in order to purify that much fissible Uranium.

After traveling from Oak Ridge to Los Alamos by rail, he quipped (paraphrasing) that he didn't realize the Americans were insane enough to turn the entire country into a factory. Meaning, it was now a possibility, though still a remote one, precisely because the USA had the landmass and the spare energy production capacity to see the project through.

In addition to all the (absolutely correct) reasons VD raises, this is really the central one in my mind. Germany could never have gone the centrifuge route, which is why they went the heavy-water route. Except Heisenberg knew that even this was impracticable (no way to produce that much heavy water), which is why the project was functionally ceased even before British commandos knocked out the only functional heavy water production facility in Sweden.

The Jews really had nothing whatsoever to do with it, one way or the other.

Anonymous Darth Dharmakīrti March 13, 2017 7:59 AM  

Niels Bohr once commented that an atomic bomb was impossible to manufacture, due to the unfathomable quantities of energy that would have to be expended in order to purify that much fissible Uranium.

After traveling from Oak Ridge to Los Alamos by rail, he quipped (paraphrasing) that he didn't realize the Americans were insane enough to turn the entire country into a factory. Meaning, it was now a possibility, though still a remote one, precisely because the USA had the landmass and the spare energy production capacity to see the project through.

In addition to all the (absolutely correct) reasons VD raises, this is really the central one in my mind. Germany could never have gone the centrifuge route, which is why they went the heavy-water route. Except Heisenberg knew that even this was impracticable (no way to produce that much heavy water), which is why the project was functionally ceased even before British commandos knocked out the only functional heavy water production facility in Norway.

The Jews really had nothing whatsoever to do with it, one way or the other.

Blogger Doug Cranmer March 13, 2017 8:04 AM  

What is it about people like this that just the way they talk puts my hackles up? It's not the content it's just the way they speak.

I've noticed the same with some gammas Vox has had a back and forth with in the past.

It's completely visceral.

Blogger Tank March 13, 2017 8:08 AM  

Good example of trying too hard. Way too hard.

Blogger SteelPalm March 13, 2017 8:09 AM  

@15

I am aware there were more than 26 Jewish scientists involved.

Then why did you write this?

"Not only did these 26 "Jewish scientists" not make up the majority of the 6,000 scientists involved in the project, they didn't even make up the majority of physicists involved."

Was it mere rhetoric? The total number of Jews out of that 6,000 would be interesting to find, although it would be a considerable project.

But I have done sufficient research to safely conclude that they were not "almost exclusively" involved

As I noted, it was a rhetorical jab towards the same people who think Jews being 10-20% (and the Jewish contribution to the Manhattan Project was far greater than that) of something makes them the main perpetrators/masterminds behind it.

Same way you use "Social Justice Warriors always lie", even though that's also not technically true, or even true half the time.

I do. And I also know that the Manhattan Project involved considerably more than science. It required 130,000 people, only 6,000 of whom were scientists. You are being evasive and going off on an irrelevant tangent.

I'm a scientist for a living, and understand the specific work involved, so yes, I was judging by scientific contribution. Teller and Oppenheimer alone were invaluable and essential. Without them, the Japanese nuclear program likely gets there first.

Even a million government bureaucrats wouldn't change that reality.

One might more accurately say that it is telling that a Jew who has been caught publicly spreading lies would attempt to equate the actions of a con man with his victims.

Heh, that's certainly the first time I have ever heard of Senator Philip Hart, Senator Ted Kennedy or President Lyndon Baines Johnson being referred to as "victims" of anyone!

And by a simple, lowly Jewish representative at that! Strange how these "victims" all profited enormously by the action and it was consistent with their overall ideology...

Come on. Do you really want to mix it up rhetorically with me, of all people?

We can. I like you and have learned a lot from you Vox, and respect this as your website. If you would like this to be my last word on the topic, that's fine.

But no, I don't agree simply because you think you have "conclusively" proven me wrong, or rhetorically claim that I'm perpetrating "Jewish lies".

Blogger Matamoros March 13, 2017 8:10 AM  

According to newer research the Germans did develop and test the a-bomb. They also had developed nuclear triggers, which the U.S. had not and did not get until Germany surrendered, along with sufficient enriched uranium for the American bomb.

https://theawakezone.wordpress.com/2015/08/20/germany-invented-the-atom-bomb-not-the-us/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT5FjYBi7Bw

See also Joseph P. Farrell's works.

Anonymous Grayman March 13, 2017 8:15 AM  

For what it may be worth, I'll add / echo that the amount of engineering work that goes into taking successful research work to a functional project is huge and can easily parallel the work that went into the original research work.
The scientist who developed the atomic bomb produced very noteworthy research but the amount of process engineering development work that went on in the background was tremendous. Enriching uranium with 1940's technology was no trivial task.

Blogger Pteronarcyd March 13, 2017 8:17 AM  

Cataline Sergius wrote:
"The impression I have is that Germany didn't have the resources or the will to pursue the A Bomb."

Hitler was big into spending lavishly on super weapons. He was pursuing a nuclear option as evidenced by his heavy water production facility in Norway.

Hitler's problem was he was a piss poor manager. His lavish spending yielded poor results, he did not choose wisely amongst potential super weapons to develop, and he often sidetracked promising weapons by insisting that they function in a suboptimal role.


VD,

You correctly point out that Jewish scientists were not in charge of the Manhattan Project. But, I assume they played a disproportionately large role in the Project relative to their demographic proportion (~2% today, maybe ~1% in the 1940s).

You did not mention that Jewish communists played important roles in leaking classified Project details to Comrade Stalin.

Anonymous andon March 13, 2017 8:20 AM  

"Even a million government bureaucrats wouldn't change that reality."

see that? whitey's a bureaucrat

Anonymous Steve March 13, 2017 8:31 AM  

VD - I stand corrected. "Fled" is not quite the right word in Peierls' case.

BTW I think the Jewish atom bomb stuff has interesting parallels to the invention of antibiotics.

The Scots take great pride in Sir Alexander Fleming's discovery of penicillin, but tend to neglect that it didn't become a useful drug until years later, after the painstaking work of Florey, Heatley and Chain (and others) made it practicable.

Blogger seeingsights March 13, 2017 8:31 AM  

One of the biggest contributors to the Manhattan Project was Leo Szilard, a Jewish-Hungarian who immigrated to the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Szilard

This, and other facts, lends support to Trump's proposal to have merit based immigration.

Blogger Dexter March 13, 2017 8:37 AM  

Germany would not only have to get the atomic bomb, they would have to get it five years earlier than the Americans. If they had the atomic bomb in 1940, then maybe they could have induced the British to accept a separate peace. If they had the atomic bomb in 1941, then maybe they could have demoralized the Soviets with it (though nuking Moscow and Leningrad most likely wouldn't have made Stalin surrender).

Unfortunately, NO amount of Jewish scientific help could permit Germany to get the atomic bomb in 1940 and 1941. Germany had already lost the war by the end of 1941 with the failure of Barbarossa. Therefore, Hitler could not have won the war by being "nice" to Jewish scientists.

If Hitler got the atomic bomb in late 1944 or early 1945, that would not even have been enough to stave off defeat. If they'd had the ability to nuke London at that point, that would only have made the Allies more determined to crush the Reich as quickly as possible before Germany could build and use more atomic weapons.

There is simply no remotely plausible scenario where Jewish scientists can win it for the 'Dolf.

Blogger SouthRon March 13, 2017 8:37 AM  

So what you're all saying is Jews are disproportionately inclined to spend billions of other people's money to kill people who are not Jews. Got it.

Blogger VD March 13, 2017 8:38 AM  

Was it mere rhetoric?

No. Do the math. My statements are pure dialectic and are accurate.

As I noted, it was a rhetorical jab towards the same people who think Jews being 10-20% (and the Jewish contribution to the Manhattan Project was far greater than that) of something makes them the main perpetrators/masterminds behind it.

First, effective rhetoric is based on truth, not falsehood. Second, the perpetrators and masterminds are the decision-makers, not the people following orders. We correctly place blame on Hitler for the Eindlosung even though he may not have ever so much have scratched a single Jew.

I was judging by scientific contribution.

It wasn't correct in that regard either.

And by a simple, lowly Jewish representative at that!

You can deflect and deny all you like. Jews were the primary instigators and architects of the 1965 Naturalization Act. It was a forty-year objective for Celler and many Jewish groups. It is a historical fact that Jews were the interest group primarily responsible for the demographic destruction of the United States that resulted from the Act.

They weren't solely responsible. They couldn't have done it on their own. They were obviously supported in this by Senators Hart and Kennedy, as well as LBJ and others. There is plenty of blame to spread around. But when a vehicle is intentionally steered into something, we blame the driver, not the chassis, the tires, or the headlights.

I don't agree simply because you think you have "conclusively" proven me wrong, or rhetorically claim that I'm perpetrating "Jewish lies".

I would be surprised if you did. I'm not telling you to stop trying to defend your people. I'm telling you that your attempts to defend them tend to strike me as counterproductive. That's just my opinion, of course. I speak for no one else here in that regard.

Blogger Dexter March 13, 2017 8:39 AM  

This, and other facts, lends support to Trump's proposal to have merit based immigration.

Make a list with two columns.

Put the Jewish geniuses who helped the USA on the right side.

Put the Jewish subversives, spies, and traitors who harmed the USA on the left side.

Which column is longer?

Anonymous kr March 13, 2017 8:40 AM  

While studying under Edward Shils at the University of Chicago in the early 1990s, I heard an interesting story that's tangential to this discussion. Shils and Teller were neighbors, apparently, and avid bridge players and heavy drinkers. The story goes that during one of their very competitive bridge games, Teller told Shils that physics was more intellectually demanding than sociology/philosophy. Shils then came up with a challenge: Teller would study sociology writ large and write a dissertation while Shils would study physics and do whatever had to be done to finish a doctorate in that subject. Only Shils managed to complete a doctorate in physics -- Teller lost the challenge -- which is why Shils was one of the co-founders and editors of the Bulletin of Atomic Science!

Just an anecdote about intra-religious competitiveness among Jews ...

Blogger Dexter March 13, 2017 8:41 AM  

Hitler's problem was he was a piss poor manager.

There was no way for Adolf to manage Germany's resources well enough to beat the UK, USA, and USSR combined.

Blogger Dexter March 13, 2017 8:42 AM  

Shils was one of the co-founders and editors of the Bulletin of Atomic Science!

A periodical which has dedicated itself to undermining American strategic power for the past 72 years. Thanks, Jews!

Blogger Ken Prescott March 13, 2017 8:43 AM  

Oh, FFS, Matamoros...

You DO know that we can STILL detect traces of every atmospheric nuclear test from the Trinity shot onward, right? We would be able to detect traces from hypothetical shots in Rügen and Thuringia--or from a hypothetical Port Chicago shot, for that matter. Folks would notice that there was something off.

Gammas are gonna gamma, I guess.

Anonymous weston March 13, 2017 8:50 AM  

Skorzeny in his memoirs wrote about why the Germans lost. I believe the English version of this is incomplete, though. Anyway, one of the big reasons was that the Soviet Great Purge got rid of all the traitors, whereas Germany kept them to the bitter end, such as with Canaris, who wasn't removed till the end of the war. The Nazi leadership was quite happy when the Purge happened, but they were mistaken. Another reason was that Germany kept trying to improve equipment, so most things were hard to repair. The Soviets had a simplified approach.

In any case, there were lots of explanations as to why they lost. Skorzeny himself made it to the outskirts of Moscow, only to watch so many around him fall.

Blogger FUCK GOOGLE March 13, 2017 8:51 AM  

Just wanted to interject that the Manhattan project wasn't even the full scope of the issue. It was only about half of the equation. The other half was the development of the B-29 - without the B-29 there was literally no practicable way to deliver the bomb, and that project was almost the same size (in expenditure and manpower) as the Manhattan project. Not to mention that there had to be yet ANOTHER project to produce specialized B-29s so they could deliver the A-Bombs (the special B-29s were called Silverplate B-29s).

Even if you had given Hitler 3-4 function Atom bombs in 1941, he couldn't have accomplished anything worthwhile with them.

Blogger dc.sunsets March 13, 2017 8:56 AM  

OT: re: never do interviews b/c the media lie, listening to George Zimmerman discuss the actual events of 5 years ago is an astonishing lesson in just how much Fake News saturates us.
http://proarmspodcast.com/
Even the "even-handed" reporting on that event was so incomplete as to be fiction.

Blogger Lazarus March 13, 2017 9:05 AM  

How many Jews involved in the The Japanese Bomb Effort: Ni-Go and F-Go?

Blogger seeingsights March 13, 2017 9:11 AM  

How many Jews involved in the Japanese Bomb Effort? The ones who worked on the Manhattan Project!

Blogger Salt March 13, 2017 9:12 AM  

basementhomebrewer wrote:They were very good at producing some of the best military equipment, but they struggled to produce it quickly or cheaply.

The Germans over-engineered everything. The Germans wanted the best. The precision of the Teutonic mind. That's laudable in many respects, but I'm not sure warfare is one where machinery has to operate in conditions where often less is more.

Blogger MadMax 1861 March 13, 2017 9:12 AM  

"Hitler had already made his fatal mistake of invading Czechoslovakia and triggering the war with Britain and France"

Should be "invading Poland"

Anonymous BBGKB March 13, 2017 9:12 AM  

Hitler would have made the bomb if it wasn't for Allen Turning breaking their code & Norwegian sabotage of the heavy water supplies resulting from it.

The One Drop Rule of History:

Well to be fair only 26 of the 25 jewish scientists took credit for the work of 6000. Just be glad we didn't have the tech to put a living black on the moon or Kennedy would have forced the issue.

those 26 were simply the most famous Jewish scientists

Again with the "Not jew enough to marry a CoHen, but a jew for the nobel Prize". Does the first jew tranny to stand up to Ted Cruz in the news last week count?

if a single Jew had anything to with (negative event X) then Jews must receive full blame for X. They participated in it, boo!

Even when the single jew is the leader like the child sex offender leader of the group pushing for Tranny bathrooms in NC or the Common Core founder that said on camera closing the achievement gap was why they copied Haiti's way of teaching math?

a jew believed his own fairy tales? Drank their own kool aid because it was free.

pernicious Jewish influence because of congressman Cellar, minimizing... the 380+ whites who voted for it

There was a 40 year non stop push for the destruction of currency & open borders from everything controlled by jews. That's 2 full generations of corrosion it only took 17 years for jewish lawfare to turn the Boy Scouts supreme court win into forcing them to welcome trannies this year.

Blogger Cail Corishev March 13, 2017 9:13 AM  

Sometimes I'm glad I slept through most of high school history. Less disinformation to unlearn.

Blogger seeingsights March 13, 2017 9:16 AM  

Some posts seem to make the point that by some date such as 1941 the Germans were going to lose the war anyway.
That point reminds me of the point made by liberals such as Michael Kingly that Communism was going to collapse anyway.
My reply is that even if true, and that was by no means obvious, it is better for an evil regime to fall sooner rather than later. And certain policies led to said evil regimes falling sooner rather than later.

Blogger seeingsights March 13, 2017 9:20 AM  

Of course there are bad apples in any group. Among the bad apples I had in mind actually are Jewish white collar criminals.
As to making a list, it's quality not quality that counts. The pros by far outweigh the cons.

Blogger Johnny March 13, 2017 9:23 AM  

By my lights there was no winning of WWII by the Germans because the project was fundamentally unsound. If their real goal had been to put together a multi racial (multi ethnic actually) empire, then there would have been possabilities. Eastern Europe had been so brutalized by the Russians that the population would have been easy to turn. But to do that the Germans would have had to treat them with some respect and put in place political institutions that would eventually lead to a sharing of power. Plus in Western Europe many of the countries had supporters of Hitler's race theories, allowing for possibilities in those territories as well.

But the above was not what WWII was about. It was about Germany Over All, and thus by its nature it could only have conquered territories, not an expanding and inclusive empire. Thus they could not produce allies, only conquered territories. (Same thing with Napoleon.)

Now would a multi ethnic empire be stable? For a while anyway and maybe longer. Long enough to produce a better outcome then they got.

Blogger Pteronarcyd March 13, 2017 9:27 AM  

VD wrote:
"[T]he perpetrators and masterminds are the decision-makers, not the people following orders. We correctly place blame on Hitler for the Eindlosung even though he may not have ever so much have scratched a single Jew."

So, you're saying Obama DID wiretap Trump.

Blogger Johnny March 13, 2017 9:27 AM  

seeingsights wrote:Some posts seem to make the point that by some date such as 1941 the Germans were going to lose the war anyway.

That point reminds me of the point made by liberals such as Michael Kingly that Communism was going to collapse anyway.

My reply is that even if true, and that was by no means obvious, it is better for an evil regime to fall sooner rather than later. And certain policies led to said evil regimes falling sooner rather than later.


A common illusion is to assume that what did happen was the only thing that could have happened. Hindsight wisdom is common, way more common than true prescience insight.

Blogger tuberman March 13, 2017 9:27 AM  

#50

In the World Bankster industry there are indeed many Pro-cons.

Anonymous Adam Cramer March 13, 2017 9:28 AM  

The Jews wuz kangz!

Anonymous andon March 13, 2017 9:29 AM  

"But the above was not what WWII was about. It was about Germany Over All, and thus by its nature it could only have conquered territories, not an expanding and inclusive empire"

maybe they didnt want to be "inclusive"

Blogger The Kurgan March 13, 2017 9:30 AM  

VD,
You are correct of course. One minor point however is that the Germans did actually set off the very first Atom Bomb in October 1944. But logistically it was probably too late to begin manufacturing and using it effectively.

Blogger tuberman March 13, 2017 9:31 AM  

To be exact (((Pro-cons))).

Anonymous basementhomebrewer March 13, 2017 9:34 AM  

I'm a scientist for a living, and understand the specific work involved, so yes, I was judging by scientific contribution. Teller and Oppenheimer alone were invaluable and essential. Without them, the Japanese nuclear program likely gets there first.

Even a million government bureaucrats wouldn't change that reality.


This is false on it's face. Perhaps, the Japanese left alone outside a war might have. The problem is Japan was being firebombed and the US was discussing invasion before the a-bombs were dropped. If the US didn't have the A-bomb they would have continued the fire bombings and proceeded with invasion.

It's pretty hard to do scientific research while fire is falling from the sky and GI's are climbing in your windows. It's even harder to actually manufacture a working A-bomb in those conditions.

Blogger Silly But True March 13, 2017 9:36 AM  

A whole hidden universe comprises the practicalities and numerous unsung personalities of the US simply securing (and equally important, blockibg the other powers from securing) sufficient material.

For example and with good reason, Edgard Sengier was the first non-American civilian to be awarded the Medal for Merit by the United States government.

Anonymous heisenburg March 13, 2017 9:36 AM  

As one of the few people where who has stood next to a Calutron at Oakridge and Los Alamos you cannot appreciate the amount of industry required using 1940's technology to make just few bombs. Only the US could have done this at the time.

If you read the works of the greats from 1900 - 1930's (and understand what they mean) that the german's had as more fundamental understanding of modern physics/quantum mechanics but for some reason this did not translate into a bomb. Some have argued that the Germans actually stalled the development of the bomb because they didn't want Hitler to have it but I think historians today have proven that not to be true. Was part of the problem because the Germans drove away Jews -- I dont know I would characterize it that way .. it would be better stated that they drove away scientist, engineers, technicians ... and when you loss that many people the full extent of that loss is hard to characterize .. but in the end, in WWII Germany with limited resources they simply would not have been able to generate the materials needed.

Its counter productive to reduce this to a Jew vs Gentile argument because it wasn't religion that separated the Germans from the Americans (or Japanese - they tried to make a bomb too) but an ability to muster massive industry and resources to make it happen.

Anonymous BBGKB March 13, 2017 9:38 AM  

Was it mere rhetoric? The total number of Jews out of that 6,000 would be interesting to find

If it's over 5,999,999 we might not believe you.

Senator Philip Hart, Senator Ted Kennedy or President Lyndon Baines Johnson being referred to as "victims" of anyone!

What if the woman Kennedy killed was a #Pizzagate setup?

Even if you had given Hitler 3-4 function Atom bombs in 1941, he couldn't have accomplished anything worthwhile with them.

They planned to send 2 subs on suicide missions one to NYC and another to a Russian port.

listening to George Zimmerman discuss the actual events of 5 years ago is an astonishing lesson in just how much Fake News

Leftists called anyone racist who pointed out Skittles girlfriends testimony available on youtube at the time where she said he was on the phone with her right before it happened & he said a gay guy was checking him out. Making it likely a failed gay bashing.

Blogger Salt March 13, 2017 9:38 AM  

@57

"It has been reported that Luigi Romersa, an Italian correspondent during World War II, was personally dispatched by the Italian dictator Benito Mussolini (1883-1945) to the island of Rugen to witness the weapons test. Romersa (1917-2007) was the last known witness, at least to have come forward, to what he and some historians have said was the detonation of a Nazi nuclear device."

http://the-wanderling.com/atomic_bomb.html

Anonymous Rocklea March 13, 2017 9:41 AM  

It strikes me that Jews are most likely 4GW adepts. A small solid core of super K selected Jews, and a larger super r selected cohort. As constant outsiders in their host cultures, the animosity directed at them strengthens the K core identity. The r cohort actually hate them and set about making alliances with the r selected population within the host culture. This actually gives the appearance of integration. Once the subversive nature of this integration is identified, animosity intensifies to boiling point, the K core will always choose Jew over other, loyal to a fault. But also oddly symbiotic. The attempted 4GW destruction of the host, combined with the backlash, ultimately strengthens the Jewish core identity. But now they have a home. They need to go back. Though their current strategy, evolutionary in nature, seems to work and has stood the test of time.

Anonymous andon March 13, 2017 9:43 AM  

"For example and with good reason, Edgard Sengier was the first non-American civilian to be awarded the Medal for Merit by the United States government."

didnt joe biden get one of those a few months ago from his good friend b.o.?

Blogger Aeoli Pera March 13, 2017 9:46 AM  

Not only did these 26 "Jewish scientists" not make up the majority of the 6,000 scientists involved in the project, they didn't even make up the majority of physicists involved.

6,000 scientists other scientists, never forget :-D.

Blogger Aeoli Pera March 13, 2017 9:48 AM  

It also demonstrates there is considerable truth to the "for want of a nail" aphorism.

More like, for want of higher average IQ and conscientiousness.

Blogger Aeoli Pera March 13, 2017 9:51 AM  

SteelPalm wrote:2. Science isn't measured by mere quantity, Vox. You should know that as well as anyone.

Impact can be measured quantitatively, see Human Accomplishment by Charles Murray.

Blogger tuberman March 13, 2017 9:53 AM  

#63 & 57

Sounds like revisionist BS. I heard from several sources years ago, that what was tested was a "dirty bomb," set off by common explosives. Supposedly, by those accounts, hundreds of prisoners were unprotected, and not too far from the epicenter, so they could test the radiation effects. Saame island site mentioned.

Blogger pyrrhus March 13, 2017 9:57 AM  

The Nazis fairly worshipped the University professors, who had also voted for them in 1933. When the German government suggested that the physicists get together in one place and work on the bomb, the suggestion was rebuffed by the professors. At which point the Germans dropped the idea, and the project meandered along. Which is why Heisenberg wasn't assassinated by a baseball player.......

Blogger Dexter March 13, 2017 10:04 AM  

Some posts seem to make the point that by some date such as 1941 the Germans were going to lose the war anyway.

Yes. Barring extraordinary incompetence by the UK+USA+USSR coalition, it was a done deal. The only thing Germany could do was slow it down somewhat. There was no path to decisive German victory.

Blogger tuberman March 13, 2017 10:11 AM  

To back up the story that the test bomb, was just a "dirty bomb," the sub sent to Japan at the end of the war for Germany, was said to contain only fissionable material without plans to make it into a a-bomb. Again, it was the stuff to make areas radioactive, by use of spreading material by conventional explosives.

Blogger Ingot9455 March 13, 2017 10:18 AM  

In life as on the chessboard, nobody wants to consider themselves a pawn. Everybody wants to be a queen.

Blogger Johnny March 13, 2017 10:19 AM  

andon wrote:"But the above was not what WWII was about. It was about Germany Over All, and thus by its nature it could only have conquered territories, not an expanding and inclusive empire"

maybe they didnt want to be "inclusive"


It was not "inclusive," it was exterminate. Slaves were subhumans along with Poles and I suppose other groups. The German 'race' needed room to expand, Eastern Europe was the favored place, and room was to be made by displacing the local population. They carried the policy out in small scale, deliberately starving some of the local communities and displacing (or wanting to) the population with German immigrants.

In our public square we obsess so much on the hardship of (((some populations))) that we overlook the cruelty imposed on other groups.

Blogger Solaire Of Astora March 13, 2017 10:23 AM  

VD never blamed the 1965 immigration act all on Jews. He blamed the Irish too, so claiming he thinks Ted Kennedy was a victim is simply a lie. Mischaracterizing his position and thinking he's contradicting himself doesn't change the fundamental calculus of who helped make the nuke anyway. Guess if you're gonna lose one argument you might as well try to deflect that energy into some minor victory, eh?

Blogger tuberman March 13, 2017 10:24 AM  

#73

In Master level and higher games the original Queen, on both sides, seldom lives until the end, both sacrifices and trades end their existence. Queens are just more powerful pawns.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey March 13, 2017 10:30 AM  

@Cataline Sergius
"The impression I have is that Germany didn't have the resources or the will to pursue the A Bomb."

Didn't have the heavy water, either, among other things. One of the areas where Allied area bombing was successful at something other than killing millions of civilians.

The amount of resources it took just to build the gaseous diffusion plant alone is staggering. That was only one of three potential technologies for uranium enrichment. They didn't know which one would work out best, so they threw money at all 3 at once. Even with that, the K-25 plant at Oak Ridge would have been impossible to operate anywhere that was at all vulnerable to bombing. At over 2 million square feet, it had the largest footprint of any factory in the world at the time, and housed a process that was very vulnerable to direction at any point. A perfect target for even the relatively primitive bomb targeting methods of the time.
https://infogalactic.com/info/K-25

Blogger praetorian March 13, 2017 10:31 AM  

VD never blamed the 1965 immigration act all on Jews. He blamed the Irish too, so claiming he thinks Ted Kennedy was a victim is simply a lie.

Begorrah!

(mfw this is literally 60+% of my ancestry)

Blogger Johnny March 13, 2017 10:33 AM  

Solaire Of Astora wrote:VD never blamed the 1965 immigration act all on Jews. He blamed the Irish too, so claiming he thinks Ted Kennedy was a victim is simply a lie.

Now I am not VD, but my take on the conversation is that what VD meant by "victum" is that Ted Kennedy believed the lie, not that he personally sufered from it.

I suspect that part of the reason Kennedy went along with this stuff was hostility toward the English. They treated the Irish really badly in some periods.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey March 13, 2017 10:39 AM  

@basementhomebrewer

"They were very good at producing some of the best military equipment, but they struggled to produce it quickly or cheaply."

Sherman tanks were hardly competitive with Panther or Tiger tanks one-on-one, but it doesn't matter if you crank out 50,000 of them. Quantity has a quality of its own.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey March 13, 2017 10:41 AM  

@Doug Cranmer
"What is it about people like this that just the way they talk puts my hackles up?"

Implicit Jewish supremacism? Naw, couldn't be. We know that, like "Jewish privilege," doesn't exist, because, uh...

Blogger frigger611 March 13, 2017 10:43 AM  

I cannot remember where I read this detail, but I think I recall that the Manhattan Project used something like a third of all the electric power in the United States during its operations to produce the bomb.

If that is anywhere close to being accurate I doubt that Germany or Japan could have produced the bomb during war time, as they were under constant allied bombardment and had to direct efforts more conventionally just to survive. In the US, our scientists enjoyed peaceful and safe work conditions.

Blogger Shimshon March 13, 2017 10:44 AM  

47 "Well to be fair only 26 of the 25 jewish scientists took credit for the work of 6000. Just be glad we didn't have the tech to put a living black on the moon or Kennedy would have forced the issue."

BBGKB, I read an article about this subject recently. He did indeed force a black man into the group of test pilots intended to go to the moon. He was the best black pilot and engineer that could be found, and he still wouldn't have made the cut. The white pilots who weren't affirmative-actioned into the program were up in arms about it. He was quietly dropped from the program soon after the assassination.

http://stuffblackpeopledontlike.blogspot.co.il/2014/05/the-wrong-stuff-ed-dwight-story-john-f.html

Blogger Peter Jackson March 13, 2017 10:46 AM  

I thought black women invented the atomic bomb.

Blogger Old Ez March 13, 2017 10:47 AM  

Trump is able to dominate the news cycles by saying things like "5 million illegal voters" and "largest electoral college victory in history" - falsehoods or exaggerations that most normal people with actual lives care very little about. Trump is able to throw out these morsels and tie the media up for the next 72 hours while they go into excruciating autistic detail to refute them. We should take a moment to see that we ourselves do not fall victim to the same kind of mindset that gets the media so predictably off balance. Who really cares if Trump had the biggest electoral college victory or if he asserted such a blatant falsehood? Only a tiny minority of inconsequential people. Does anyone care when some guys says, "The South would have won if X, Y or Z"? Of course not. Let the guy believe what he wants to believe. But nothing brings the autism out like Hitler, WW2 and the Holocaust. Who really cares if Hitler dindu nuffin or would have won if X, Y or Z? Who really cares about historical LARPing like that? Only two very small groups:(1) the Kids who propagate these memes for teh lulz and (2) people who can't keep their autism under control. Basically, there's a certain kind of personality out there that can be predictably operated just by giving verbal cues: "Hitler did nothing wrong" is enough to send these people into full screechmode. And of course that's the whole point. To be clear, the Alt Right wouldn't exist without our sweet, sweet 'tism. Vaccinate early and often.

Anonymous andon March 13, 2017 10:47 AM  

JohnnyMarch 13, 2017 10:19 AM
It was not "inclusive," it was exterminate. Slaves were subhumans along with Poles and I suppose other groups. The German 'race' needed room to expand, Eastern Europe was the favored place, and room was to be made by displacing the local population. They carried the policy out in small scale, deliberately starving some of the local communities and displacing (or wanting to) the population with German immigrants.

In our public square we obsess so much on the hardship of (((some populations))) that we overlook the cruelty imposed on other groups.


yes but how much of that is actually true? seems a lot of our history has been written by the same old suspects. they used to claim 4 million at auschwitz, now only 1.5 - If they are off by so much why should i believe anything they have to say?

Anonymous zebedee March 13, 2017 10:48 AM  

basementhomebrewer wrote:Cataline Sergius wrote:

Nobody today seems to get just how economically weak Germany was when WWII broke out in Europe.

Consequently saying if only Hitler had kept enough Jews around he could have won the war is silly.


Not to mention Germany's strength wasn't mass production. Once they got into a war on multiple fronts they pretty much shot themselves in the foot. They were very good at producing some of the best military equipment, but they struggled to produce it quickly or cheaply. Once the war got into full swing it was all in on resources struggling to churn out enough normal equipment for the war effort. That made resources for "special projects" a little sparse.


This lack of focus on mass-production has been a hallmark of the Germany economy right down to the present day. As recently as the early-mid 1990s, BMW and Mercedes were each only selling about 500,000 cars a year. Chrysler, the smallest of the Big Three was selling comfortably over 2 million vehicles a year during the same time period. The vast majority of Germany's industrial capacity is even today concentrated in the Mittelstand.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey March 13, 2017 10:56 AM  

@VD

"It is a fact that Congressman Celler was the driving force behind the Immigration Act and that Jewish groups had been agitating for it for 40 years"

Jacob Javits was a huge factor, too, of course. Interestingly, if you do a search for "Jacob Javits Hart Celler," the top hits are all evil not-see sites. Memory holed, it appears.

Not to mention that ignoring the role of the (((media))) and (((donors))) is more than a little disingenuous.

A couple of decent short pieces on Hart-Celler and the Tribe:

https://www.therightstuff.biz/2015/08/21/who-opened-the-borders/amp/

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2013/05/ted-kennedy-did-not-pass-the-immigration-act-of-1965/

Kevin MacDonald's "The Culture of Critique" has an excellent chapter on this issue, of course.

Blogger tuberman March 13, 2017 10:58 AM  

#85Ez

Actually, Alex Jones suggested eight million false votes (not voters), and this included stuffing ballot boxes, busing Leftist to multiple voting sites, dead people voting, tons of other activities including allowing millions of illegals to vote by illegal registrations, and other means.

Anonymous BBGKB March 13, 2017 10:59 AM  

BBGKB, I read an article about this subject recently. He did indeed force a black man into the group of test pilots intended

I posted that before, Chuck Yeager’s autobiography said he wouldn’t take the guy unless everyone that scored better than him who applied also got in. This caused triple the amount of astroNOTs to be trained. Even the NAACP said that Dwight was not competent to go after they investigated why he didn’t walk on the moon as he was last place in almost every training exercise.

Blogger pyrrhus March 13, 2017 11:00 AM  

When Hitler got into a two front war, the results of which Germany had experienced in WW1, all the top Generals and Nazi officials assumed they would lose. That's why Hess flew to Britain.... At that point, many started making plans to escape to South America,,,

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey March 13, 2017 11:05 AM  

@Robert What?

"because they considered it too horrible a weapon to use in real life - at least in the West."

That kind of judgment about intentions is difficult to make from any distance, but it's interesting to note that generalized area bombing of civilian populations was widely considered to be a war crime in Western countries prior to the beginning of the British bombing campaign against Germany.

It's difficult to separate the ethical issue from the technological one. If you have a lot of long-range heavy bombers, the idea of bombing a countries population centers more or less at random probably looks more appealing than if you have mostly light bombers/ strike aircraft. Then again, the decision to put large amount of resources into long-range heavy bombers might reveal something about the intentions of those allocating the resources...

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother March 13, 2017 11:06 AM  

Which pros are those? The US would be better off if no Jewish foot had ever graced the continent of North America.

Blogger tuberman March 13, 2017 11:08 AM  

#90

It just wasn't "his time." Today they would have had a stand-in take his test, coddled him with top helpers, and just lied about the results to get him in if necessary.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey March 13, 2017 11:09 AM  

@pyrrhus

"That's why Hess flew to Britain"

No. Hess flew to Britain in a last-ditch attempt at ending the war (which Churchill ignored, of course). He was later sentenced to life in prison for trying to stop the carnage.

Anonymous Dan in MD March 13, 2017 11:13 AM  

A big part of the failure of Germany to build the bomb is that they had Social Justice Convergence in physics.

Everyone should read this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Physik

Or:
https://infogalactic.com/info/Deutsche_Physik

They rejected Relativity because it came from Albert Einstein, who was Jewish. Which was kind of a problem for developing the bomb considering that the conversion of mass into energy is the whole idea.

This is much like how 'academics' and 'social scientists' today reject everything thus far discovered about biology and humanity because the discoverers where white men. They would rather recite gibberish that came from themselves, irrespective of whether or not it is true.

Of course Aryan Physics, like 98% of academic output in the social sciences in the last generation, was pure, unadulterated bullshit. And when it came time to build a bomb, they were of course totally incompetent, being converged in their version of political correctness.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey March 13, 2017 11:14 AM  

I can think of a reasonable compromise here. How about we all agree that Jewish scientists (and non-scientists) were dominant in at least one paricular aspect of American nuclear weapons tecnology-- giving (and selling) that technology to the Soviets?

Blogger Johnny March 13, 2017 11:21 AM  

>>yes but how much of that is actually true? seems a lot of our history has been written by the same old suspects. they used to claim 4 million at auschwitz, now only 1.5 - If they are off by so much why should i believe anything they have to say?

Who to believe is always a problem. What I believe is that there is lots and lots of colleratal evidence that the Nazi's were an unusually brutal group, making lots of claims credible that might otherwise be suspect war propaganda.

Viewing the whole thing from a propaganda standpoint, the hard left uses the Hitler and his buddies endlessly for their own ends. The easy way to overcome that is not to deny reality, but to flesh it out. Going into detail weakens the ability to use talk of Nazis for any focused purpose. Propaganda requires simplicity. There were lots of victims in the WWII period, some by Stalin, some by Hitler.

Anonymous zebedee March 13, 2017 11:35 AM  

VD wrote:I never claimed that the Manhattan Project had anything to do with Germany's policy towards Jews.

Nor did I say you did.

I stated that Germany's own nuclear program suffered from this policy, and, unrelated, the Manhattan Project was largely the work of Jewish scientists.

Both statements are false. Germany's nuclear program could not have suffered from it, because the scientists were never accessible to Hitler. The Manhattan Project was not "largely the work of Jewish scientists". You clearly don't understand what the Manhattan Project was or grasp the distinction between theoretical work and weapons development.


And it's worth noting the differences between the American and German Jewish communities. In the 1930s there was something like 4.5-5 million American Jews. In 1933 when the Nazis came to power there were a little over half a million German Jews, so the pool of potential scientists was much smaller. And the average American Jew was wealthier and more upwardly mobile than the typical German Jew meaning better access to education. As for Eastern European Jews, they were poorer yet.

In other words, even if the Nazis had adopted a conciliatory policy towards the Jews living in Germany and in the neighbouring occupied countries, it would have made little impact on their ability to acquire an atom bomb as the human capital that was present in the USA simply wasn't there.

Blogger Matamoros March 13, 2017 11:35 AM  

@39 Ken Prescott Gammas are gonna gamma, I guess.

How true gamma boy.

You are obviously gamma as you cannot be bothered with facts, or reading the link:

In addition, Karlsch also refers to the results of the measurements carried out later by the U.S. military on the ground test site in Thuringia where traces of radioactive isotopes were found. In particular, soil samples showed the presence of radioactive elements, namely uranium, plutonium, cesium 137 and cobalt 60....

So, gamma boy, go back into your gamma cage and leave your betters alone.

Blogger Shimshon March 13, 2017 11:37 AM  

BBGKB then it was you who probably directed me to that fascinating article. I'm pretty sure I found it via VP.

Blogger Matamoros March 13, 2017 11:38 AM  

And again:

“Nazi nuclear waste from Hitler’s secret A-bomb program found in mine”

German nuclear experts believe they have found nuclear waste from Hitler’s secret atom bomb program in a crumbling mine near Hanover. More than 126,000 barrels of nuclear material lie rotting over 2,000 feet below ground in an old salt mine.

Rumor has it that the remains of nuclear scientists who worked on the Nazi program are also there, their irradiated bodies burned in secret by S.S. men sworn to secrecy. A statement by a boss of the Asse II nuclear fuel dump, just discovered in an archive, said how in 1967 ‘our association sank radioactive wastes from the last war, uranium waste, from the preparation of the German atom bomb.’

This has sent shock waves through historians ...

Blogger Seal Of Lion March 13, 2017 12:03 PM  

The Japanese even had an atomic program that was ahead of the Germans in some of the theoretical work. They had some of the calculations about the general amount of fissionable material needed and that plutonium might be best to use. They also knew that they didn't have the materials, infrastructure, or time to even get close to building a working reactor, which the navy was interested in, let alone a bomb.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey March 13, 2017 12:24 PM  

@Grayman

"Enriching uranium with 1940's technology was no trivial task."

Heck, it's still not, even with current centrifuges, 70+ years later.

Blogger Keyser Soze March 13, 2017 12:43 PM  

Steelpalm, is he gamma?

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother March 13, 2017 12:49 PM  

His palms didn't start out as Steel, Keyser.

Blogger Matamoros March 13, 2017 12:53 PM  

@104 The Japanese even had an atomic program...

Joseph P. Farrell believes that the Japanese set off an atomic explosion in Korea late in the war, and provides some evidence for this.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents March 13, 2017 1:09 PM  

@Matamoros

Since you don't bother to post links, is this the Joseph P. Farrell you are referring to?

@Steelpalm
No, the Japanese were not on the verge of a working fission bomb. Even if they were, the Empire of Japan had no way to deliver it anywhere by 1945. As you would know if you had even a sliver of a fragment of a grasp of the actual correlation of forces in the Pacific and East Asia at that time.

I repeat my previous statement from last night: if you had any knowledge of how big Manhattan was, you would not have written such a ridiculous, stupid sentence.

Anonymous RCPete March 13, 2017 1:19 PM  

Richard Rhodes did two books that cover the A and H bomb projects pretty well. The Making of the Atomic Bomb is mostly relevant here, and it tries to cover the German program. It's been a few years (original edition is mid 1980s, the current edition dates to 2012), but I recall that Heisenberg was more focused on atomic power (think nuke subs) than on a bomb.
Dark Sun covers the followup, with a major section on the Soviet spy system, Oppenheimer's issues.

Both books focus on Hungarians as central characters: Szilard in Making, and Teller in Dark Sun. Hungarian scientists were essential to the success of these projects, at least according to the Hungarian scientists I've known...

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Deplorable Cents March 13, 2017 1:32 PM  

This is the sentence by Steelpalm that is stupid.

Jewish immigrants that were responsible for the Manhattan Project and the US getting the atom bomb a few months before Japan, which was feverishly working on it, too.


Vox and others have disposed of the "jewish immigrants that were responsible for the Manhattan project". It is time to dispose of the "atom bomb a few months before Japan".

Steelpalm, we will test your knowledge of history with direct questions per the rules of the blog.

First direct question to Steelpalm: exactly where in Japan were the centrifuge farms or other facilities necessary to separate out the kilos of uranium needed to create a fission bomb?

In other words, where was the Empire of Japan's equivalent to the Hanford site which as you recall is over 500 square miles in size. Where was the Empire of Japan's equivalent to the Oak Ridge K-25 plant, a factory of 2,000,000 square feet?

Second direct question to Steelpalm: if the Empire of Japan had produced a fission bomb in 1945, how would they have delivered it anywhere?


Anonymous jOHN MOSBY March 13, 2017 1:38 PM  

" Same way you use "Social Justice Warriors always lie", even though that's also not technically true, or even true half the time. "
Double down, dumbass.
So you are a Scientist, eh ?
What is your field ? I know it will be hard for you to do, but be honest about it.
Thanks in advance, Steel Palm.

Blogger Matamoros March 13, 2017 2:28 PM  

@https://gizadeathstar.com

Yes, that is he. His website is at https://gizadeathstar.com but you can easily find his works on Amazon.

Blogger JP March 13, 2017 2:34 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger JP March 13, 2017 2:37 PM  

Not entirely on-topic, but I thought it was funny.

Recently started rewatching Band of Brothers, directed by the All-American (tm) Steven Spielberg

First episode has Ross from friends be an annoying prick (Cpt Sobel) who is petty, vindictive, and so incompetent at leading in the field that his men mutiny.

While on the boat to England, some soldiers gripe about him and say he's Jewish. A soldier stands up, and says, "I'm jewish, so don't you be calling Sobel no Jew!" And they get in a fistfight (on a packed troop transport).

In real life, Sobel actually was jewish, and the private was not. Later in life, Sobel tried to commit suicide, but was such a poor shot, that he missed his brain and only managed to blind himself.

Every. Single. Time.

Blogger Jose March 13, 2017 2:43 PM  

Darth Dharmakīrti wrote:Niels Bohr once commented that an atomic bomb was impossible to manufacture, due to the unfathomable quantities of energy that would have to be expended in order to purify that much fissible Uranium.

That's because separating U235 from U238 is a physical process; now done with gas centrifuges and, at the time, with Calutrons, basically large specialized mass spectrometers. These things require a lot of electricity, and the TVA basically worked for Oak Ridge for the duration. (As a sidenote, Oak Ridge was not a lab, it was a factory designed for mass production of material for nuclear weapons after the war.)

Heisenberg short-circuited that by designing a plutonium bomb: he had a heavy-water reactor to produce plutonium from natural uranium, and plutonium can be separated from uranium and fission fragments with a chemical process. Chemistry requires much less energy than physics. (Insert joke about sex lives of chemists vs physicists here.)

After the war Heisenberg claimed that he figured out how to make the bomb, and had enough plutonium for two or three, but by then he understood who the nazis were and decided to hide the results and keep the research going as a scientific endeavor. A bit self-serving, but consider that you need three interrelated calculations to design a single-stage implosion-type fission device: the mass of physics package (the plutonium), the geometry of the physics package, and the geometry of the implosion.*

Heisenberg knew the mass needed, since he used a pineapple to illustrate the size of the bomb during a presentation to the generals in early 1943. It's probable that he got the mass from a simple implosion geometry with core initiator, so that's two; the implosion itself is an explosives problem, but potentially solvable by people so adept at artillery as the Germans. Given that Heisenberg's meeting with Bohr in Copenhagen was followed by frantic targeting of both his research lab and the Norsk Hydro Rjukan-Vemork plant, I feel inclined to belive him.

Alas, despite being a physicist's physicist, Heisenberg was shunned by his colleagues after the war. Even though he had been arrested by the Gestapo for teaching "jewish physics" in the 30s...

* I got this from my old edition of Krane's Introductory Nuclear Physics textbook, which says that all of it had been recently (for the 1980s) declassified. I like these objects called textbooks as sources of information because there aren't feminist editing mega-parties changing them every so often. (True story.)

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents March 13, 2017 2:44 PM  

@113 Matamoros

Giza Death Star? Giza Death Star. Seriously? That's right up there with Yakub the mad scientist, dude. It's wack.

Anonymous andon March 13, 2017 2:49 PM  

Both books focus on Hungarians as central characters: Szilard in Making, and Teller in Dark Sun. Hungarian scientists were essential to the success of these projects, at least according to the Hungarian scientists I've known...

i hear "Hungarian scientists" were also instrumental in the book publishing business

Blogger Noah B The MacroAggressor March 13, 2017 3:00 PM  

@105 There is a newer technique called AVLIS that, according to some sources, is much more energetically efficient than centrifugation.

The technology required to use this technique didn't exist in the 1940's, though.

Blogger DonReynolds March 13, 2017 3:06 PM  

An Excellent Summary, Vox.
I have never read a better one.
By my own reading, the British had already started working on the bomb before the USA entered the war and it was Churchill who insisted on bringing the Americans into the project....overruling his own advisors....to provide complete information of their progress to date. Churchill understood that only the US had the money and resources to make the bomb a reality. It was a very big deal for the British Government....dedicated as it was to absolute secrecy during wartime to share with the US their developments in radar, cryptology, and high performance aircraft engines that gave the US an advantage during the early years of the war. This is the same Churchill who said...."During Wartime, the Truth is so precious, that it must be protected by a bodyguard of Lies."
.
Sometimes it is difficult to discern the difference between the racial preoccupation of the Nazi ideology that insisted on German Superiority and what we hear from some of the Jewish advocates who insist that their own "race" is the intellectual superior. Why does it have to be one or the other?
.
I also recall that the secrecy and tight security in the Manhattan Project, at the insistence of the US military, was keeping the scientists and engineers from collaborating with each other. This prevented ideas from being shared and improved, because absolute security was maintained WITHIN the project itself. It was only after the tight military security was relaxed and the science and engineering people could exchange and share information, that the Manhattan project seemed to make real progress. Of course, relaxing the tight security was probably the reason the Soviets were able to sheep-steal the secrets of the bomb, without having to develop it themselves. I believe the Rosenbergs got the blame for that one and paid for it with their lives.

Anonymous Rip March 13, 2017 3:14 PM  

But could jewish scientists have created the nuclear bomb without access to funding from goyim economies?

Blogger Ken Prescott March 13, 2017 3:14 PM  

Yeah, you can find traces of radioactive isotopes in the soil. I can find traces of those isotopes in my backyard. Didn't know that someone tested a nuclear weapon in my neck of San Diego. (Methinks that the neighbors would be less than thrilled with the impact on property values...)

But no one has ever found any trinitite dating to before 7/16/45, oddly enough...or, come to think of it, "hot" steel rolled during the winter or spring of 1945...

Blogger DonReynolds March 13, 2017 3:16 PM  

@116 Jose
Oak Ridge is a city in East Tennessee.
The enrichment plants located there....which still exist....are named Y11 and K25. I have visited them.
No one seems to mention the work done at Lubbock, Texas...where many of my own relatives worked during the war. No, they were not scientists or engineers. They were mostly workmen and carpenters and pipefitters. Over 100,000 Americans worked for the firm at Lubbock. It had a weird name during the war, which I cannot recall well.....Centex or Apex, or some such.

Blogger DonReynolds March 13, 2017 3:26 PM  

@115 JP
My first wife worked in the state services for the blind agency back in the 1970s and she would tell me about how there were two kinds of blind people. Those who were born blind tended to be sweet and appreciative of any help they received. Others were very angry and bitter and resentful of any help from anyone. It turned out that the angry blind people were mostly those who had tried to commit suicide with a pistol and only managed to destroy the optic nerves. The other angry blind were those who were blinded by motorcycle accidents....trauma to the head, resulting in retinal atrophy.

Blogger Were-Puppy March 13, 2017 3:29 PM  

@66 andon

didnt joe biden get one of those a few months ago from his good friend b.o.?
---

Is that what that was? I thought it was a pizza participation prize

Blogger Were-Puppy March 13, 2017 3:36 PM  

@85 Peter Jackson
I thought black women invented the atomic bomb.
---

Mmmm hmmm. Because back when they was kangz everybody rode around on flying atomic bombs.

And WWII was won because black dude won the olympics and it made Hitler sad.

Anonymous andon March 13, 2017 3:47 PM  

Dan in MDMarch 13, 2017 11:13 AM
A big part of the failure of Germany to build the bomb is that they had Social Justice Convergence in physics.

Everyone should read this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Physik

Or:
https://infogalactic.com/info/Deutsche_Physik

They rejected Relativity because it came from Albert Einstein, who was Jewish. Which was kind of a problem for developing the bomb considering that the conversion of mass into energy is the whole idea.

This is much like how 'academics' and 'social scientists' today reject everything thus far discovered about biology and humanity because the discoverers where white men. They would rather recite gibberish that came from themselves, irrespective of whether or not it is true.

Of course Aryan Physics, like 98% of academic output in the social sciences in the last generation, was pure, unadulterated bullshit. And when it came time to build a bomb, they were of course totally incompetent, being converged in their version of political correctness.


if this is true how come the Germans seem to have excelled in science - V2 rocket, first jet fighter, later contributors to the U.S. Space Program.

Anonymous andon March 13, 2017 3:50 PM  

btw, i hear jew physics is bunk

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents March 13, 2017 4:01 PM  

@123 Don Reynolds
No one seems to mention the work done at Lubbock, Texas...where many of my own relatives worked during the war.

The Pantex plant was a standard bomb factory during WW II but became a nuclear bomb assembly in the 1950's.

Blogger Noah B The MacroAggressor March 13, 2017 4:38 PM  

From the Wikipedia "Deutsche Physik" article: "The movement did not actually go as far as preventing the nuclear energy scientists from using quantum mechanics and relativity,[14] but the education of young scientists and engineers suffered, not only from the loss of the Jewish scientists but also from political appointments and other interference. In 1938, Himmler wrote to Heisenberg that he could discuss modern physics but not mention Jewish scientists such as Bohr and Einstein in connection with it."

Shorter version: Germans were happy to use accurate and useful physical models developed by Jews but not to give them any credit for their work.

Blogger seeingsights March 13, 2017 4:49 PM  

Because classical physics is all that is required.
One of the U.S. Astronauts to the moon, it
asked by mission control "who is guiding the spaceship?" replied "Sir Isaac Newton."

Blogger Jose March 13, 2017 4:57 PM  

andon wrote:Germans seem to have excelled in science - V2 rocket, first jet fighter, later contributors to the U.S. Space Program.

That's Engineering, where the noble, semi-skilled laborers execute the vision of those who think and dream. Hello, oompa loompas of science.

Blogger L. Jagi Lamplighter Wright March 13, 2017 4:57 PM  

On the other hand...China could have had the atomic bomb in the 60s, if they had put the Manhattan project scientist who defected to China into a lab...instead of on a farm.

One of the small outcomes of the horrible Cultural Revolution for which we can all be grateful.

Blogger Robert What? March 13, 2017 5:02 PM  

While the Germans started (I believe) the bombing of civilian centers for the purpose of demoralization, it was the Allies who used it far more often and far more indiscriminately.

Blogger Matamoros March 13, 2017 6:01 PM  

@134 While the Germans started (I believe) the bombing of civilian centers

Churchill started indiscriminate civilian bombing -

"Hitler didn't start indiscriminate bombings — Churchill did "

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2013/10/the-bombing-war-by-richard-overy-review/

Blogger JimR March 13, 2017 6:12 PM  

@133 L. Jagi Lamplighter Wright

China detonated their first atomic device in 1964.
https://infogalactic.com/info/596_(nuclear_test)

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents March 13, 2017 6:15 PM  

@133
On the other hand...China could have had the atomic bomb in the 60s, if they had put the Manhattan project scientist who defected to China into a lab...instead of on a farm.

What was that scientist's name?

The first Chinese nuclear test was in October 1964, the first thermonuclear test in June, 1967

One of the small outcomes of the horrible Cultural Revolution for which we can all be grateful.

The Cultural Revolution did not get started until May, 1966.

Anonymous BBGKB March 13, 2017 6:27 PM  

This man hating project is starting to sound like doctor Ben Carson's surgery with 70+ OR personel over 20 hours.

BBGKB then it was you who probably directed me to that fascinating article. I'm pretty sure I found it via VP

I post his story when the black space program gets mentioned. One of these days I will dig thru my storage boxes and scan the newspaper clip of Latrina's 21 crackbabies from NJ.

But could jewish scientists have created the nuclear bomb without access to funding from goyim economies?

It would require rolling a uranium penny.

Blogger Johnny March 13, 2017 7:09 PM  

>>A big part of the failure of Germany to build the bomb is that they had Social Justice Convergence in physics.

Once a society starts employing people into jobs called scientist, it shifts from being a creed to being a job. If a person called a scientist quits his job and starts selling insurance, he becomes an insurance salesmen.

So, of course they are converged. Got to please the employer. Same with professors, by the way.

Blogger Were-Puppy March 13, 2017 10:05 PM  

A new manhattan project ?
https://therealstrategy.com/chemtrails-exposed-truly-a-new-manhattan-project/

Blogger Were-Puppy March 13, 2017 10:08 PM  

There is a paragraph in there about Trumps uncle John G. Trump

Anonymous Azimus March 14, 2017 12:11 AM  

2. Cataline Sergius March 13, 2017 6:52 AM
The impression I have is that Germany didn't have the resources or the will to pursue the A Bomb.


According to Speer, it was either the ballistic rocket or the Bomb, particularly after a British air raid destroyed their leading research facility for heavy water I believe. Frankly I don't think there was ANY single technology that the Germans could've invested in to win the war - even if they got the bomb, and even if they used it on the Russians (the more likely target) - in 1945 what would they have used it on? Moscow? Out of range of their aircraft. Leningrad? Any of the cities ravaged by the war? Would not have accomplished much but sealed the deal that this was a war of annihilation and the Soviets would stop at nothing to wipe Germany off the face of the Earth. By 1944 even wiping out the White Sea ports and cutting the Soviets off from Allied Supplies would have accomplished little, IMHO.

Anonymous Azimus March 14, 2017 12:38 AM  

92. pyrrhus March 13, 2017 11:00 AM
When Hitler got into a two front war, the results of which Germany had experienced in WW1, all the top Generals and Nazi officials assumed they would lose.


I know this goes against the conventional wisdom, but was it really a "Two Front" War? In Sep 1941 all of Europe was under fascist control except a few neutrals. UK had no army left and was "borrowing" rifles for goodness sakes(that might've been late 1940, but it shows the state of the Imperial forces). North Africa was a side show of what - borrowed Indians and ANZACS using borrowed American weapons under a British flag. Other than a handful of sea zones - the North Atlantic and both ends of the Mediterranean, even the Royal Navy was getting spanked.

Hitler's "Two Front War" started when he declared war on the United States, which was the direct result of what may have been the largest strategic blunder in written history, or at least the 20th century - the Japanese entry into the war against the US and Allied powers simultaneously. I have never seen an explanation of why the Japanese thought it was necessary to do this. I mean, if it was all about securing resources - why not just attack the neutral Dutch East Indies, for goodness sakes? It's the size of Europe and was defended by 100,000 ill-equipped, poorly trained KNIL troops and auxiliaries. All the resources you want, and no global powers to have to contend with.

OK - done ranting.

Anonymous JAMES March 14, 2017 3:21 PM  

SteelPalm your arrogance and sense of superiority drips like oil from every word you type.

Blogger Tom Kratman March 14, 2017 9:44 PM  

"made his fatal mistake of invading Czechoslovakia "

Wouldn't have been a mistake had he stopped there. And it wasn't quite so viciously heavy handed or blameworthy as it's made out to be.

To begin with, Czechoslovakia was an artificial construct of three peoples (+) that were not, shall we say, best buddies, Germans, Czechs, and Slovaks (plus some smaller minorities). The Czechs cobbled the thing together and got the others forced into it for their own benefit, by and large; the others never did want in, especially when the Czechs attempted to force feed them Czech culture. With the excision from the country of the Germans, the Slovaks went on their own, while the Poles and Hungarians each took a healthy bite to get their own people back. There wasn't a lot left of Czech territory after that, and what there was was descending into the kind of disorder that's most uncomfortable to see in a neighbor. Hence, it, too, was occupied and extinguished.

Blogger DonReynolds March 14, 2017 11:05 PM  

@135 Matamoros
More accurately, the first bombing missions to hit German cities were ordered by Neville Chamberlain. There were no heavy bombers at that stage of the war, but Wellington RAF bombers hit German cities months before Churchill came to power. (I lived in one of them much of 2010....Rostock.)
Chamberlain gets a bad rap in history, in my opinion, but he DID declare war on Germany and prosecuted the war from September 1939 until the Battle of France in May 1940. Much of what is popular contempt for Chamberlain was due not to anything more than the lack of military preparedness of the British for a land war in Europe. Chamberlain did what he could with what he had to fight with.

Blogger DonReynolds March 17, 2017 10:25 PM  

@143 Azimus
The Japanese were in a tight spot actually and it was the US that put them into the tight spot. For all of their success in China, there were few strategic materials to be won in China....most especially, there was no oil. The occupation of Indochina after the fall of France in 1940, provided some relief for the Japanese, but certainly not enough. The USA had been in an unofficial shooting war with the Japanese ever since the war in China began, almost ten years before Pearl Harbor, providing money, weapons, and "volunteers" to the Chinese. Once FDR announced an American embargo of oil sales to the Japanese, they did not have enough oil to keep their huge fleet at sea. Either they had to secure supplies of oil or dock a good bit of their Imperial Navy. The other choice was to win oil supplies in Soviet Russia, but the Japanese Army had almost zero success against the Soviets. That is why the Japanese Navy came up with a plan to cripple American bases and naval resources in the Pacific. The Dutch East Indies was the biggest source of oil in the entire world at the time. Shell Oil....Royal Dutch Shell Group....was the largest oil company...was too much of a target, especially after the Netherlands had been overrun and occupied by the Germans in May 1940. The Japanese Navy had to seize the oil or stand down. They took the gamble.

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