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Tuesday, April 25, 2017

Invasion and convergence

Apparently we'll soon discover how completely converged the Methodists are:
Karen Oliveto clutched a friend's hand, closed her eyes and wept when she learned last year she had been elected a bishop of the United Methodist Church. Oliveto, who is married to another woman, had become the denomination's first openly gay bishop.

Within minutes, a formal complaint was filed challenging her election as contrary to the church ban on clergy who are "self-avowed practicing homosexuals" - a petition that the highest Methodist judicial authorities agreed to consider. On Tuesday, the court will take up the closely watched case, the latest flashpoint over LGBT rights in a denomination splintering over the Bible and homosexuality.

"It highlights very greatly that we are two different churches and that the real difference is whether or not we're going to live by the covenant that we each have agreed to," said the Rev. Rob Renfroe, who leads Good News, a caucus of evangelical Methodists that has lobbied to uphold current teaching. Said Oliveto, "I'm in deep prayer, reminding myself of what God has called me to do."

Oliveto, who is based in the Denver area, will attend the hearing in Newark, New Jersey, accompanied by fellow bishops from the church's Western Jurisdiction, her wife, mother and childhood pastor. LGBT clergy and their supporters plan to pray outside and wear T-shirts listing the first names only of gay clergy who would risk losing their ministerial credentials by coming out.

The goal is to underscore the human cost of church policy, said the Rev. Lea Matthews of the LGBT advocacy group Methodists in New Directions. Prayer vigils are planned in the Methodist Mountain Sky Area region, which Oliveto leads, while others will join a prayer vigil online.

The court, or Judicial Council, is expected to issue a ruling a few days later.

The 12.8 million-member church, the third-largest in the U.S., was already in turmoil over same-sex relationships when Oliveto was elected. Methodists approved language in 1972 calling same-gender relationships "incompatible with Christian teaching." The top church policy-making body, or General Conference, has upheld that policy ever since, even as LGBT rights gained acceptance and other mainline Protestants, including the Episcopal Church and the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), approved same-sex marriage. In recent years, the Methodists have seen their greatest growth overseas, especially in Africa, among more theologically conservative people, who have been standing with U.S. evangelical Methodists against recognizing same-gender relationships.

Deeply frustrated, Methodist LGBT advocates have stepped up pressure for new policies, holding same-sex weddings in defiance of church prohibitions and coming out as gay and lesbian from the pulpit. Conservatives responded by intensifying demands for church discipline over such actions. In one high-profile case, the Rev. Frank Schaefer was tried by a church court and defrocked for presiding at the wedding of his son to another man. Schaefer was later reinstated as a minister on an appeal of the ruling.
This really isn't that hard. Any acceptance of same-sex relationships is sufficient to not only defrock a minister or a deacon, much less a bishop, but merits immediate expulsion from the church. Any so-called "Christian" church that embraces formalized sin, of any kind, is clearly nothing of the sort. This is not even remotely debatable.

Conservatives need to understand that the infiltrators are not seeking acceptance, and that they are not misguided, but they are there to destroy the organization from within. It's not as if Christians weren't warned of these "wolves in sheep's clothing", after all.

And furthermore, from a practical standpoint alone, it should be obvious that every single church that accepts female ministers, in direct contradiction to Scripture, has set itself on the wide and easy path that leads to worldly approval, declining attendance, societal irrelevance, and eventual destruction.

If those who wish to formally embrace everything from same-sex relationships to gluttony wish to set up their own organizations to pretend to worship the gods in whom they obviously don't believe, there is nothing stopping them from doing so. So, ask yourself this: why is it so very important to them that they not only be permitted to join existing churches, but assume leadership of them and change their long-standing policies?

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215 Comments:

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Anonymous Cheshirych April 25, 2017 8:07 AM  

Woman bishop? Since when it is possible?

Blogger FALPhil April 25, 2017 8:09 AM  

The Methodists have been converged for decades. They were founding members of the World Council of Churches, which was, for all intents and purposes, a communist front organization. This behavior does not surprise me in the least, and neither will the outcome when the Methodists confer the bishopric on this lesbian.

Blogger dc.sunsets April 25, 2017 8:10 AM  

Pardon my intellectual sloth; I now grasp that "convergence" is simply another term ofr turning A into not-A, but continuing to use the same term for its description.

I've noted for some time that Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four is a complete 101-452 undergraduate degree in political science in a single book.

I also observe that none of the fruits of convergence are that surprising; any society so immersed in The Perpetual Now will have zero use for the past and zero concern for the future.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan April 25, 2017 8:11 AM  

Virtue signaling all the way down.

Anonymous VFM #6306 April 25, 2017 8:14 AM  

why is it so very important to them that they not only be permitted to join existing churches, but assume leadership of them and change their long-standing policies?

For their progeny, of course.

Mosques don't just build themselves, you know.

Anonymous Pug April 25, 2017 8:18 AM  

"...when she learned last year she had been elected a bishop..."

Say no more.

Blogger VD April 25, 2017 8:18 AM  

Pardon my intellectual sloth; I now grasp that "convergence" is simply another term ofr turning A into not-A, but continuing to use the same term for its description.

That's a very useful description. Well put.

Blogger The Kurgan April 25, 2017 8:19 AM  

Regardless of denomination I feel more and more certain that at some future point Vox, you and I are both going to be at the front of the charge towards a certain set of gates...

Anonymous Avalanche April 25, 2017 8:24 AM  

If these 'churchians' think 'accepting and loving everybody' is soooooo important; and that they should accept (and even be led by?) any and all of 'God's children' -- why do they not (OH! Or maybe they do?!?!) accept pedophiles and rapists and moslems as bishops?

(Decades ago,) When I was throwing a girl out of the Navy for drug use, she came to me and tried to convince me that it wasn't the worst thing in the world and it was only marijuana and she really really LIKED the Navy, and why couldn't she stay? I pointed out that certainly m.j. wasn't the worst thing, and it was "only" m.j., and if she really really liked the Navy, then she had to either play by their rules or leave, and now she was going to be leaving! EITHER she could have the Navy or she could have the dope. No third option. It was entirely that simple.

I wish there were some way to get THROUGH to idiot (HA! as if there were any other kind!) liberals (in all their guises!)(and yes, that absolutely includes (most) women, who generally ruin everything!) (including the NAVY!) that there are rules to EVERY 'game' and if you wish to play in a game, you have to play by the rules. Doesn't matter if you agree with them or think the rules (and rules makers) are mean, those are the RULES!

Anonymous Rocklea April 25, 2017 8:25 AM  

"Methodists approved language in 1972 calling same-gender relationships "incompatible with Christian teaching.""

Kinda redundant. Perhaps a four legs better than two moment, after all, now one can just change 1972 to 2017, then incompatible to compatible and.... all better now.

Anonymous Avalanche April 25, 2017 8:25 AM  

@4 "Virtue signaling all the way down."

Turtles are better.

Anonymous Critically Bent April 25, 2017 8:26 AM  

Rev 2:5

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Anonymous Avalanche April 25, 2017 8:26 AM  

@8 "Regardless of denomination I feel more and more certain that at some future point Vox, you and I are both going to be at the front of the charge towards a certain set of gates... "

?? Pearly or fiery?

Blogger Thomas Rank April 25, 2017 8:28 AM  

"The goal is to underscore the human cost of church policy, said the Rev. Lea Matthews of the LGBT advocacy group Methodists in New Directions."

The human cost of allowing such radical departures from God's Word is incalculable. Souls are being destroyed by this LGBT advocacy, claiming it to be godly, while it is a satanic lie. The LGBT advocates have it exactly wrong, and weak and wounded consciences, instead of hearing of the need for living in repentance and faith, are directed to their own human opinions.

Anonymous Anonymous April 25, 2017 8:28 AM  

Old white asks...........Two different Churches, one is not Christian, what is the other one?

Anonymous TS April 25, 2017 8:32 AM  

"Conservatives need to understand that the infiltrators are not seeking acceptance, and that they are not misguided, but they are there to destroy the organization from within. It's not as if Christians weren't warned of these "wolves in sheep's clothing", after all."

"I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves." Matthew 10:16

Works in reverse too. Probably don't want to tell anybody you're a sheep.


Anonymous VFM#1819 April 25, 2017 8:34 AM  

So much fail. These are fake Christians the exact same way Minnesota Somali Muslims are fake Americans. Matthew 7:15-20 lays it out plain as day; every church producing such "fruit" is a rotten tree to be cut down and consumed with fire. The writing is on the wall. The Whore of Babylon indeed.

Anonymous RabidRatel April 25, 2017 8:35 AM  

The Kurgan wrote:Regardless of denomination I feel more and more certain that at some future point Vox, you and I are both going to be at the front of the charge towards a certain set of gates...



You will not be alone.

One common thing amongst these churches that belong to the WCC, is their abandonment of the narrow, difficult path in their search for "relevance", "inclusiveness" and popularity. Since only one path leads to God, it is certain that they are not following it anymore.

Blogger Phillip George April 25, 2017 8:35 AM  

why do they need a Methodist Church?
Is it Wesley's Hymns that attracted them?
Why do they need Christians to bake cakes for them?
Why do they need attention/ affirmation/ corroboration?

Why does someone with HIV want to infect a few others before they go down for the long sleep?

Like Musselmen, the death cult? Anything with the image of God has to be destroyed.
It's the orgy of death. What does Earth look like when the Holy Spirit lifts off? I suspect this is just the warm up.

All those FEMA camps. All those plastic coffins. All those activists. Human rights without the righter of humans or the writer of everything. cheers. Nearing Midnight all over the Earth.


Blogger Salt April 25, 2017 8:38 AM  

why is it so very important to them that they not only be permitted to join existing churches, but assume leadership of them and change their long-standing policies?

Matt 4:8

7Jesus replied, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’” 8Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9“All this I will give You,” he said, “if You will fall down and worship me.”…

Destroying the Churches makes them Earthly, bringing them into the playground of Jesus's adversary.

Blogger Thomas Henderson April 25, 2017 8:39 AM  

"And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." Matthew 3:10

Alas, Christendom will not be restored by repentance, a change of heart on the part of the religious leadership and mob shouting, "Away with him, away with him, crucify him." They, like their earlier counterparts, lack authority and orthodoxy - right worship. What is needed is another Constantine.

"To the one who conquers I will give a place to sit with me on my throne, just as I have conquered and have sat down with my Father on his throne." Revelation 3:21

Blogger Robert Divinity April 25, 2017 8:40 AM  

The only reason the United Methodist Church hasn't fully embraced gay marriage is because its sole growth has been in anti-SSM Asia and Africa. The church is functionally dead/dying in England, Canada and America.

Anonymous Azimus April 25, 2017 8:40 AM  

Revulsion is the word that comes to mind. How beautiful that they are praying - have they ever considered to whom they are directing these prayers?

I used to be an United Methodist. We had a pastor - quiet, sort of nerdy bean-pole fellow in his late 40's. Married, had one daughter. Something of a nerd, collected model trains avidly. Terrible homilies. The congregation elected not to renew his pastorship with our church. The bishop sent us a pastor named Pastor Hazel.

On her first day at the pulpit, she lifted her considerable girth onto the platform, gasping and sweating from the effort. At age 14, even I noticed that her vestal robe was actually a circular white tablecloth with the center cut out to fit her head into. That didn't look quite right.

She proceeded to apologize for being out of breath. She explained it was because of her weight. Somehow she went from that to explaining in dramatic gestures learned, no doubt, from thousands of hours of diligently studying soap operas, that her weight was because of something was because of something was because of something, and this string of horror ended with her reasons for taking showers with the bathroom door open because she was sexually abused in the shower when she was a child. The entire first homily was about herself - no mention of God, no mention of Jesus, no mention of anything except herself - and her cats.

The decline was rapid. If I recall, our little church had about 120 adult members, with say 60-70 in regular attendance. Many left in the first month. We stuck around for maybe 4 months, by which time there were probably 30 people in regular attendance who hadn't realized their female pastor was very likely mentally ill. I heard years later that Hazel had been removed, and that they had to completely gut the interior of the parsonage because her cats had shat it to ruin.

Blogger LonestarWhacko April 25, 2017 8:41 AM  

Folks....Probably be best to quit worrying about why the wolves are at the door. Once you understand that all of this was foretold, then you understand why you have to be so careful of the leaven that corrupts.

Apostasy and worse, misleading and being misled.
We know that these are the days of coming destruction. Fact is, being a Christian is a death sentence. That's why our reward is in the heavens. Oppressive wolves and all that.

Blogger J A Baker April 25, 2017 8:45 AM  

12.8 Million members, 3rd largest in the U.S. 2nd largest is Southern Baptists Convention and 1st is Catholics.

With 12.8 million members the Methodists churches have acquired a considerable amount of wealth and property, and now that the organization has been fully converged, that wealth and property will remain with the official converged ruling body of the organization to be used to further their agenda. Members who disagree with this progressive policy on practicing homosexuals acting as clergy are free to leave, and when they leave, they leave all of that wealth and property which generations of their families and communities worked to amass.

So the goal of convergence is really two fold for these wolves in sheeps clothing. First and foremost they hate Christ and wish to destroy his church. But as a sort of consolation price, or the spoils of this culture war, they get all
Of this wealthy and property that now can be used to even further their agenda. And, it was in a way like taking candy from a baby.

But we shouldn't feel bad. I still believe that when this happens to a church it is God's just judgement on a church that has compromised to appease the world.

I pray for that remnant of faithful within this organization who have the courage to leave and start a new. If they take that first step of faith I believe that God will do great things through them without all of that wealth and property.

Blogger Zaklog the Great April 25, 2017 8:51 AM  

Coincidentally, I just yesterday recorded a video on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=Wdsp5NfMmVI

Anonymous The OASF April 25, 2017 8:53 AM  

It's all about the $$$$. The SWJ can only invade and take over existing institutions. They can't start or maintain one independently because participation and feasibility is unattainable, the secret CIA PSYOP budget slush-funds not withstanding.

For an example on that idea, reference "Hollywood."

Anonymous Cadwallander J April 25, 2017 8:54 AM  

The history of the fall of protestant churches in America will be a long depressing read, but it may be only a chapter in the chronicle of the current backslide throughout Christendom. The Catholics are laboring under an apostate Socialist. Christian martyrs are falling by the thousands. And even the nationalist surge in Europe is weighed down by its lack of faith.

I'm not sure whence will come the Christian revival, but the Eastern/Russian Orthodox have the inside track right now. I suppose we in the states may serve as a cautionary tale to future denominations.

Anonymous Hunsdon April 25, 2017 8:54 AM  

Maybe they could start a new, more inclusive organization. If only there was a name for such a thing! Wait. Hmm, as I recall, "The People's Temple" might be available.

Anonymous Bz April 25, 2017 8:55 AM  

Personally, I thought the writing was on the wall with "Rev." Paul Flowers in the UK a few years back.

The Methodist minister, 63, was filmed handing over £300 apparently for crystal meth and cocaine and is said to have boasted about taking ketamine.
...
He has since been engulfed in allegations of illegal drug use, gay sex, questions over his expenses claims at a drug charity and drink-driving.
It also emerged he had resigned as a Labour councillor after adult material was discovered on his computer.
...
The Methodist Church, where Mr Flowers has been a minister for over 40 years, announced on Wednesday that he would be suspended indefinitely whilst any police investigation took place.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10466936/Paul-Flowers-arrested-over-drugs-scandal.html

To summarize, a panting degenerate dirtbag of 40 years in the Methodist church.

Blogger J A Baker April 25, 2017 8:55 AM  

I would suggest to readers here to take a drive around your own communities and take a look at the Methodist churches. I have noticed them in my own community, mostly very nice facilities, the ones in my ar a of very large bulidings make of stone, they look like castles. It's a shame to think that radical groups like antifa or black bloc will soon be using these spaces to plan their next riot.

Blogger John rockwell April 25, 2017 8:58 AM  

This is maybe God's way of cleansing his church?

Blogger tz April 25, 2017 9:08 AM  

Just follow the flashing virtue signals on the road to Hell.
"Virtue signal" is another inverted term.

Anonymous p-dawg April 25, 2017 9:11 AM  

But this only applies to Scriptural teachings that you agree with, doesn't it? No stopping the pig-eating. No plans to re-establish the Sabbath. No plans to cease getting 501c(3) licenses for churches. There's no such thing as harmless sin. And sin is clearly defined in Scripture as the violation of the Law. The same Law that the Messiah said would not change in the slightest until the end of the Earth.

Anonymous Cheshirych April 25, 2017 9:14 AM  

Those "good intentions" ...

Blogger Mountain Man April 25, 2017 9:16 AM  

I guess the beaver lickers and sausage aficionados missed the part of scripture where it exhorts fellow Christians not to sue one another..no matter how “just “ the cause. Oh well what can you expect when you’re dealing with Fake Christians.

Anonymous krymneth April 25, 2017 9:19 AM  

Avalanche wrote:If these 'churchians' think 'accepting and loving everybody' is soooooo important; and that they should accept (and even be led by?) any and all of 'God's children' -- why do they not (OH! Or maybe they do?!?!) accept pedophiles and rapists and moslems as bishops?

They do, basically. If a "denomination" can accept an atheist "pastor" then there is obviously simply no standard whatsoever beyond claiming to be a converged-pastor.

(Nod to dc.sunsets; that is a useful formulation of the term indeed.)

Anonymous Taco Town April 25, 2017 9:22 AM  

Why haven't rebel churches/factions appeared yet? What I mean is Methodists(for example) rejecting the official converged hierarchy and instead following their own Methodist splinter which follows pre-converged Methodism only, with a healthy dose of screw you to official Methodism. Why hasn't this been happening yet?

Blogger Mountain Man April 25, 2017 9:24 AM  

"I would suggest to readers here to take a drive around your own communities and take a look at the Methodist churches. I have noticed them in my own community, mostly very nice facilities, the ones in my ar a of very large bulidings make of stone, they look like castles. It's a shame to think that radical groups like antifa or black bloc will soon be using these spaces to plan their next riot.”

Or like here in rural New England where the beautiful old churches/town meeting houses have been taken over by the Unitarians and turned into dens of Satan. There is one here in the area that has a rainbow flag out front and sign saying “ refugees welcome”. The virtue signaling coupled with the cognitive dissonance is surreal.
As I said to the wife - these idiots can afford to be welcoming to rapefugees because there are none to be found within a 60 mile radius of the place.

Blogger Tallen April 25, 2017 9:28 AM  

Why haven't rebel churches/factions appeared yet? What I mean is Methodists(for example) rejecting the official converged hierarchy and instead following their own Methodist splinter which follows pre-converged Methodism only, with a healthy dose of screw you to official Methodism. Why hasn't this been happening yet?

It may be happening but you probably won't read about it. The MSM learned their lesson with the breakaway Anglican churches in the DC area: slander the faithful and they only grow stronger.

Blogger Mountain Man April 25, 2017 9:29 AM  

SJW’s are like the Moslems in the fact they are incapable of creating anything. The only way for them to survive is to subjugate and then looting the victim. Its why they have such an affinity for that barbaric religion. They’re kindred spirits.

Blogger Cail Corishev April 25, 2017 9:31 AM  

Why haven't rebel churches/factions appeared yet?

They have. They're small, and frequently have to operate without the benefits of membership in the converged organizations, which use their numbers and media influence to portray the orthodox rebels as crazy heretics. That treatment also means they tend to struggle financially, buying a church in the worst part of town or holding services in someone's barn. So you won't see them unless you go looking for them. They're growing, because they're the only ones really having babies, but it will take generations for them to reach competitive numbers on demographics alone.

Blogger J A Baker April 25, 2017 9:32 AM  

Taco Town

Local independent churches are best. They can own their own property and manage their own finances and affairs. They are hard to converge because mainly they consist of a small but loyal congestion, and they don't have a lot of wealth and property, so they really aren't a target to begin with, in many cases the pastor has to work a second job to support himself and his family, so his motivation for being a pastor isn't financial.

But when a church belongs to an organization like UM it becomes very beaurcratic and every decision has to up and down the line it's a government and the indicidual churches can't act independently but must carry out the agenda of the centralized ruling body.

If a church did go against the orders of the ruling body I would guess that the ruling body could use the local authorities, (many of which may very well be members of that particular church) to evict and remove those people from the church property.

Blogger Orville April 25, 2017 9:33 AM  

A long hard fall from this Methodist Sam Jones.

"Another time, he heard some preachers praying that he'd have more tact. Sam prayed aloud, "Lord, I hope you won't listen to a one of these preachers. They don't preach against sin. They don't visit from door to door. They don't weep over sinners, and they don't win souls. And they want You to change me until I'm just like them."


http://www.christianity.com/church/church-history/timeline/1801-1900/a-typical-sam-jones-tough-nosed-sermon-11630608.html

Blogger OGRE April 25, 2017 9:33 AM  

@36 There are plenty of "rebel" churches. The Independent Baptists have been operating this way for decades. And my experience with these churches is that they are far more interested in missionary work than fighting political battles. Not that they eschew all things political, just that their focus is primarily on reaching out to non-believers.

Anonymous Bz April 25, 2017 9:36 AM  

Here is an example of how things work out, though at universities not churches.

... hedge funds and private equity firms now together manage roughly $200 billion worth of endowments. At the standard 2 percent management fee rate, that means American college and universities are handing over roughly $4 billion per year to the finance industry at the same time schools are enjoying what Eaton says is nearly $20 billion in tax breaks.
...
In 2014, Yale paid $480 million to Wall Street money managers— far more than the $170 million it spent on tuition assistance, fellowships and prizes
...

http://www.valuewalk.com/2017/04/private-colleges-endowment-wealth-become-ivory-tower-tax-havens/

Blogger BunE22 April 25, 2017 9:40 AM  

Awhile back I had asked here for advice on my church because the pastor went on sabbatical and his wife (also ordained I found out) took over. Eventually the pastor came back, but a month later was in a car accident and there have been no services since then.

I went to the closest church on Easter, Lutheran, which has an overweight woman pastor. Looks like a lesbian. During her sermon on the Resurrection she just had to mention that back then women were second class citizens. I will never go back.

I found an Independent Baptist Church and attended on Sunday. It was way better than the Lutheran since the leaders are men. Is there anything I should be wary of? I want a church that follows the word of God, not mankind.

Blogger Midnight Avenue J April 25, 2017 9:41 AM  

I've been thinking lately about the difference between disruption and destruction. Something someone recently posted about Malala and how we're supposed to worship her for trying to bring education to women.

She was disrupting her culture (with aid of foreign money and political ties, I know she was no David fighting Goliath alone and without backup). But her disruption was targeted to destroy, and that made people unhappy enough to try to kill her.

Is there a line? The last post about Infogalactic helped me flesh it out a bit. Rather than invade Wikipedia or Twitter, you present an alternative that permits the other to exist but forces it to evolve. Hmmm. But this lesbo "bishop" invaded and is forcing change from within. Destroying rather than disrupting. As D.C. said, turning A into not-A but maintaining the designation.

So it is a matter of makers versus takers. Leftists worship disruption-actually-destruction because they have no ability to make alternative institutions of their own. But when the disruption happens to their sacred cows, the butthurt and claws come out. Do they grasp what cognitive dissonance is, or do they think they're geniuses in the manner Fitzgerald once described, as being able to hold two opposing ideas without going insane?

Anonymous Looking Glass April 25, 2017 9:41 AM  

The "final turn" is always Women as Deacons. It's not the Pastors/Ministers, but the Deacon board. Once they turn that, the denomination is a temple to Satan. Done & dusted; dust off your feet and walk.

Everything else is just the slow burn of convergence.

Anonymous Ryan ATL April 25, 2017 9:41 AM  

Not trying to argue, just asking. Where in scripture does it say only men should lead churches?

Blogger Nate April 25, 2017 9:44 AM  

"This really isn't that hard. Any acceptance of same-sex relationships is sufficient to not only defrock a minister or a deacon, much less a bishop, but merits immediate expulsion from the church. Any so-called "Christian" church that embraces formalized sin, of any kind, is clearly nothing of the sort. This is not even remotely debatable."

It actually is kind of hard.

Just as the liberals were able to exploit bureaucratic systems in the Presby CHurch 100 years ago... they are doing the same thing... to a lesser extent now in the UMC.

The UMC however has something in its favor the Presbys didn't. The UMC is a giant international organization. Meaning it isn't just the US that gets a vote here. And as well all know... the worldwide perception of Homosexuality is very different indeed than the perception of it in the US.

The Asia and AFrican delegations have always sided with the conservatives in America and that's why the liberals have never been able to get the Book of Discipline changed.

They can pull stunts like this... and yes... that is all this is. Its their last hurrah.

You wouldn't know it from the news but the conservative side has actually been winning. We have gotten our rules pushed through every time we've tried. We've made tactical errors that the left has been able to use to avoid total attrition but we're still winning.

Best yet... when the liberals started their crap at the last general conference we completely shut them down. The right is done. We voted to hold a special conference in 2019 about this. And basically... we are going to kick them out.

All of them.

Oh it will look like a schism and it will be reported that the brave liberals bravely moved on... but that's not the truth. We are kicking them out. Whole conferences if necessary.

And yes... we're keeping the church property. So they can go have their 20 member church services in strip mall retail space somewhere.


Blogger ZhukovG April 25, 2017 9:46 AM  

I believe Nate is a Methodist, I wonder if he will have any information to put the current issue in context.

Blogger J A Baker April 25, 2017 9:46 AM  

BunE22

Be wary of legalism. That's all I'm gonna say because I don't want to start a debate here.

Blogger ZhukovG April 25, 2017 9:47 AM  

My timing was a little off. heehee.

Blogger Midnight Avenue J April 25, 2017 9:47 AM  

Ryan ATL, Cor 13:33-35, Timothy 2:11-12, Titus 2, Ephesians, and the fact that Jesus' first and closest followers were men. Women numbered among his disciples but Paul says women should be silent in church and ask their husbands for clarity on spiritual matters.

Women are not supposed to teach men, and leadership of a congregation implies being their teacher.

Blogger VD April 25, 2017 9:48 AM  

Where in scripture does it say only men should lead churches?

1 Timothy 3:

Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons. In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

Blogger Chris Mallory April 25, 2017 9:48 AM  

Ryan ATL wrote:Not trying to argue, just asking. Where in scripture does it say only men should lead churches?

1 Timothy 2:11-12

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

Blogger VD April 25, 2017 9:49 AM  

We voted to hold a special conference in 2019 about this. And basically... we are going to kick them out. All of them.

That's exactly what needs to be done. No hesitation and no mercy to the unrepentant.

Blogger Unknown April 25, 2017 9:50 AM  

There was a huge exodus from the Methodist Church almost exactly two decades ago over the ordination of the first practicing homosexual.
In the structure the church, the laity write the rules, and the hierarchy​ enforces them. The laity were completely unimpressed by the hierarchy's decision to ordain a practicing lesbian, and pointed out that doing so was explicitly against the rules. The hierarchy acknowledged that, and told the laity to piss off.
Membership dropped by millions overnight, and have continued to decline at a rapid rate ever since.

It's somewhat disingenuous to claim that they're one of the largest Protestant churches, as the method of enumeration was specifically set up to advantage the Methodist and Episcopalian Churches. The church's membership in this country is a small fraction of what it used to be.

Blogger Yarnwinder April 25, 2017 9:52 AM  

Economic times have been tough around here...except for the churches. All of them are expanding their facilities. That tax exemption seems to fund many things, not all of them good.

If you accept the govt dime, they own you. How necessary is an organized church to anyone's Christianity? Congregations of like-minded people are nice, but there are limits...

Blogger ZhukovG April 25, 2017 10:00 AM  

Nate, from what you are saying it appears that Traditionalist Methodists in the US would not be able to hold the heretics at bay without the help of the Africans and Asians.

Is that because a Lesbian Bishop with a 1,000 member diocese and 50 cats has the same vote as a Traditionalist Bishop with a 10,000 member diocese?

Blogger OGRE April 25, 2017 10:01 AM  

@45 BunE22

The problems that I'd seen pop up in the Ind. Baptist churches would typically fall into two categories. 1) a pastor, missionary, or some other leader failing to maintain his family, usually through infidelity, and 2) internal disputes over leadership and control within a church, usually occurring after a new pastor is brought in and a schism for and against forms within the church. In the case of 1, the church usually removes the leader from a position of influence, and after a period of healing will continue on with a new person in place. In the case of 2, somebody is leaving and those who go will move to a new church.

Both situations seemed to arise as a result of a person getting 'too big for his britches.' A new pastor seeking to make a church his own, a travelling preacher having multiple affairs. These things occur when the person involved turns their attention onto themselves and centers the church around their being. When a church becomes focused on the personality of an individual leader, then you know trouble is brewing.

However, in all the church turmoils I've witnessed, I've never seen an Ind. Baptist church waver from the Word of God. So as long as whatever church you attend stays true to the Lord's Word you should be in a good place. Its just that as with any organization some people will try to make it about themselves, so consider it a warning of troubles to come if you see that happening.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 25, 2017 10:02 AM  

As I read it this trial is the immediate result of convergence that let a lesbian be elected Bishop followed by pushback from other clergy against the election. The bad news is the election, the good news is the pushback.

The election of the lesbian to bishop resulted from allowing women into clergy. Every church that does that eventually declines. By their fruit shall we know them. It almost always starts with women as deacons.

In the longer run, look for a split in the Methodist church. A house divided against itself cannot stand.

Blogger Lazarus April 25, 2017 10:03 AM  

From a review of End of Christendom, publish in 1980:

Christendom according to Malcolm Muggeridge, is something quite different from Christianity. Christ said his kingdom was not of this world; Christendom on the other hand, is of this world and, like every other human creation, subject to decay and eventual desolation.

All we are witnessing is the writhing of the maggots as the corpse is being consumed.

Anonymous Just another commenter April 25, 2017 10:05 AM  

The opening scene from Victoria comes to mind.

Blogger praetorian April 25, 2017 10:06 AM  

We voted to hold a special conference in 2019 about this. And basically... we are going to kick them out.

All of them.


Good luck, Methodist-chan!

Anonymous Rocklea April 25, 2017 10:07 AM  

@49 Nate:
"The UMC however has something in its favor the Presbys didn't. The UMC is a giant international organization. Meaning it isn't just the US that gets a vote here. And as well all know... the worldwide perception of Homosexuality is very different indeed than the perception of it in the US.

The Asia and AFrican delegations have always sided with the conservatives in America and that's why the liberals have never been able to get the Book of Discipline changed."

Good to hear. Have to point out the exception to the rule though. I mean, in this case, Diversity is our Strength.

Blogger Unknown April 25, 2017 10:07 AM  

Short form: they can't.
The hierarchy owns all the property, all the trusts, and has almost absolute say over who is hired and assigned where. They also have a great deal of control over the name "Methodist".

People have left en masse, but the capital was left behind. Most have fallen away or joined other denominations.

Blogger Antony April 25, 2017 10:08 AM  

OT - but I hope some of the readers here can provide info on a nasty little antifa related group from the UK called Hope Not Hate" who have done an expose on the anti sharia campaigner Anne Marie Waters ; http://hopenothate.org.uk/2017/04/19/ukip-candidate-linked-extreme-far-right/ - looks like a job for a 4chan investigation !

Blogger Rabbi B April 25, 2017 10:08 AM  

So, ask yourself this: why is it so very important to them that they not only be permitted to join existing churches, but assume leadership of them and change their long-standing policies?

Because the Adversary will not be content with anything less.

He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies ... be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith ... (cf. John 8 and I Peter 5).

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky April 25, 2017 10:14 AM  

You really do have to just cut and run from these churchians. Forget trying to reason, persuade, etc. How can that work? Take a look at this report from one the lesbian bishop's sermons, wow. So much is so very wrong. One hardly knows where to begin.

This person is a bishop? A bishop???? Methodists, you are truly lost.

https://juicyecumenism.com/2016/07/16/karen-olivetos-theology-criticizing-jesus-defending-demon-possession/

Blogger Lazarus April 25, 2017 10:15 AM  

Paul councils Timothy in 1:5

11 As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. 12 Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge. 13 Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also busybodies who talk nonsense, saying things they ought not to. 14 So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 15 Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.

I imagine Lesbians are prone to the same thing, not bearing children and such.

Blogger Unknown April 25, 2017 10:15 AM  

FYI, the Methodist Church does not really have deacons or equivalent positions.

Anonymous paleopaleo April 25, 2017 10:16 AM  

So, ask yourself this: why is it so very important to them ...

It's also about the insane real estate values. A Methodist church here went through this very thing and the traditionalists ended up leaving in protest over gay marriage and now meet in a rented civic hall. They left millions in physical resources to the entryists.

Blogger Unknown April 25, 2017 10:19 AM  

Best of luck!
It's been many years since I've considered myself a Methodist, but I hope you succeed.

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky April 25, 2017 10:23 AM  

Here is where it says that only men can lead churches. 1 Corinthians 14:

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

They aren't supposed to even speak in the Church.

Blogger Lazarus April 25, 2017 10:25 AM  

paleopaleo wrote: So, ask yourself this: why is it so very important to them ...

It's also about the insane real estate values. A Methodist church here went through this very thing and the traditionalists ended up leaving in protest over gay marriage and now meet in a rented civic hall. They left millions in physical resources to the entryists.


The previous entryists said, "Instead of meeting like this, we should purchase land and build a great whited sepulchre, ....er.... edifice to meet in style. Much better."

Blogger Cail Corishev April 25, 2017 10:26 AM  

The Asia and African delegations have always sided with the conservatives in America and that's why the liberals have never been able to get the Book of Discipline changed.

Better act quickly, before they get reeducated. Conservative Catholics hoped the African bishops would put the brakes on Pope Frank's "non-traditional family" revolution, but he appeared to charm them with a photo-op, and there hasn't been a peep out of them. (Since they were chosen by his Vatican II predecessors, it's no surprise if they're more converged than their people are. That might work differently in your church.) The only serious push-back he's gotten from within his organization is from four white Cardinals from Germany, the U.S., Italy, and Germany.

Blogger BunE22 April 25, 2017 10:33 AM  

Awhile back I had asked here for advice on my church because the pastor went on sabbatical and his wife (also ordained I found out) took over. Eventually the pastor came back, but a month later was in a car accident and there have been no services since then.

I went to the closest church on Easter, Lutheran, which has an overweight woman pastor. Looks like a lesbian. During her sermon on the Resurrection she just had to mention that back then women were second class citizens. I will never go back.

I found an Independent Baptist Church and attended on Sunday. It was way better than the Lutheran since the leaders are men. Is there anything I should be wary of? I want a church that follows the word of God, not mankind.

Blogger BunE22 April 25, 2017 10:33 AM  

Awhile back I had asked here for advice on my church because the pastor went on sabbatical and his wife (also ordained I found out) took over. Eventually the pastor came back, but a month later was in a car accident and there have been no services since then.

I went to the closest church on Easter, Lutheran, which has an overweight woman pastor. Looks like a lesbian. During her sermon on the Resurrection she just had to mention that back then women were second class citizens. I will never go back.

I found an Independent Baptist Church and attended on Sunday. It was way better than the Lutheran since the leaders are men. Is there anything I should be wary of? I want a church that follows the word of God, not mankind.

Anonymous BBGKB April 25, 2017 10:34 AM  

wear T-shirts listing the first names only of gay clergy who would risk losing their ministerial credentials by coming out. The goal is to underscore the human cost of church policy, said

Oh no we would have to hire a tshirts worth of non dikes. There are already churches that accept dike leaders like MCC.

If those who wish to formally embrace everything from same-sex relationships to gluttony

For all the talk you would think a chain of gay marriage wedding chapels, with cake bakeries & all you can eat buffets would spread like combo payday loan/liquor stores in DieVerse areas, but marriage simply isn't happening.

Why does someone with HIV want to infect a few others before they go down for the long sleep?

I have meet more gays who admitted to trying to poison the blood supply to make Whitey come up with a cure faster, than I have in actual monogamous gay marriages. http://www.advocate.com/crime/2014/09/04/2-studies-prove-domestic-violence-lgbt-issue

Blogger Stilicho April 25, 2017 10:40 AM  

@nate, when you kick them out don't forget to remove "social justice" from the UMC mission statement and/or published principles. Otherwise, you're leaving a door open for further entryism.

Anonymous Karen April 25, 2017 10:44 AM  

I had read before, here I believe, that ordination of women always leads to acceptance of non-biblical lifestyles, such as homosexuality. I did not fully understand the connection until this weekends when a video went viral on Facebook, of a female Seventh - day Adventist pastor coming out as bisexual. Our church has voted against womens ordination as recently as our 2015 General Conference. It remains, however, a hot button issue, with a large split in our church, particularly in North America, where some conferences have defied the ruling and gone on ordaining women.



While watching this video and reading the comments the connection finally got through. This woman is already accustomed to intellectualizing her way around plain words in the Bible and ignoring all church authorities in favor of doing what her feelings tell her is right, and calling it the Holy Spirit. Acceptance of alternative lifestyles is an obvious next step.

Anonymous fop April 25, 2017 10:45 AM  

'Converged' is such a misleading term. No one gets it. "Well, you see it goes back to the mid 1800's when John Stuart Mill was describing his utilitarian vision for human interaction blah blah boring eye roll glaze over yawn snore..."

May I suggest "thronged" or perhaps "penetrated".

The Methodist church was completely penetrated by lesbians.

The Boy Scouts were thronged repeatedly until they finally gave in.


Or perhaps a nice portmanteau - penetronged.

Wikipedia is among the most penetronged organizations ever. Jimmy Wales has been penetronged hard by leftists for years.


Blogger OGRE April 25, 2017 10:45 AM  

@75 gay marriage was never about marriage or 'equality' or 'rights' or wedding cakes. Its always been about attacking churches. Forcing churches to commit the abomination of performing a same-sex wedding. That is what they truly want, to destroy the churches form the inside and pollute them with their sin and filth. Just as the men of sodom and gomorrah wanted to have the angels and even turned down the offer of Lot's virgin daughters, it is the defilement of the pure that gives them pleasure more than the act itself.

It is always the goal of the corrupt to impart their corruption onto others.

Blogger alex69elijah9yaki April 25, 2017 10:49 AM  

left-wing mainline protestantism is in decline, i mean they barely have children, in 20-30 years the vast majority of protestants will be right wing

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus April 25, 2017 10:49 AM  

The United Methodists - a denomination so pozzed the mother goddess wouldn't even have them anymore.

Anonymous Eduardo the Magnificent April 25, 2017 10:51 AM  

Whenever you hear the words "human cost", know that the person saying it doesn't care about actual humans. Crack a few eggs, a million is a statistic, you get the idea.

Blogger Phelps April 25, 2017 10:53 AM  

1 Timothy 2:

11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

Women don't teach the gospel because they are much more suspect to manipulation, more gullible, and more impulsive.

Blogger Felix Bellator April 25, 2017 10:57 AM  

Mustard seed, birds....

Blogger Kentucky Headhunter April 25, 2017 10:57 AM  

I wonder what Hank Hill would think of this...

Anonymous kfg April 25, 2017 11:02 AM  

"why is it so very important to them that they not only be permitted to join existing churches, but assume leadership of them and change their long-standing policies?"

Because they are totalitarians. Their driving force is not to have what they want, but to destroy what they don't want.

Blogger VD April 25, 2017 11:04 AM  

May I suggest "thronged" or perhaps "penetrated".

I don't speak in dialectic to people who can't stay awake when presented with difficult three-syllable words.

Blogger Chiva April 25, 2017 11:06 AM  

@74 BunE22. As long as the focus of that church is on the originator of our faith and not of this world the church should be OK. This is not to say it will be perfect, but a church that keeps the correct focus will be resilient to "cares" of this world.

Anonymous Eric the Red April 25, 2017 11:06 AM  

But but but, what about the humanness of it all ???

Oh the humanity !!!

Blogger praetorian April 25, 2017 11:07 AM  

They aren't supposed to even speak in the Church.

One of the depressing aspects of being catholic, which knocks down the smugness at mainline prot degeneracy, is listening to women do the readings on Sundays.

Well, the whole socialist SJW anti-christian pope thing is kind of a bummer too...

Blogger Chiva April 25, 2017 11:09 AM  

I wonder what Hank Hill would think of this...

Propane has many uses......

Blogger dc.sunsets April 25, 2017 11:09 AM  

All this reinforces my (relatively recent) view that the social mood mania's promotion of Present-Mindedness also fueled an obsession with external validation (and abandonment of internal validation.)

Instead of communing peacefully (and silently) with God, or silently improving your own marital devotion or the inside-the-home nurturing of your children while seeking honor for honor's sake alone, we see:
1. The hunt for others' envy via accumulation of material wealth and
2. The hunt for others' admiration via trumpeting ones piety and devotion to sacrament via Virtue Signaling & deafening professions of faith on FB, Twitter, etc.

The latter is NOT spiritual wealth. It's mindless herding, seeking self-value in the reflection from others' eyes. In that context there's no difference between envy and admiration, which is an egregious corruption of virtue.

Spiritual wealth is sought in solitude, in the determination of what is right and then walking the path silently, invisibly, measuring only by honest self-appraisal.

Ours is now a society obsessed with material and social-herd wealth and almost entirely bereft of spiritual wealth.

No wonder we are the richest people ever to have lived while simultaneously more miserable than our ancestors who lived in dirt-floor hovels.

Anonymous Überdeplorable Psychedelic Cat Grass April 25, 2017 11:10 AM  

Disgusting. Purge them with fire. It's the only solution.

Anonymous fop April 25, 2017 11:15 AM  

Convergence also lacks any sense of the present subversion and deception. But point taken on dialectic.

Still, it would be exceedingly awesome for SJW infiltrators to become widely known as "penetrators".

"There's this purple-haired penetrator at work who just begs to be triggered."

Anonymous Gen. Kong April 25, 2017 11:17 AM  

@dc:
... as it is written: You say: "I am rich, with everything I want, I don't need a thing!" And you don't realize that spiritually you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked.

Blogger dc.sunsets April 25, 2017 11:18 AM  

Every large organization, political, religious and commercial, evolved these last 50-150 years under conditions favoring centralization. They are mighty oak trees whose appearance of strength and permanence are but illusions.

They are ALL hollow after decades of increasing corruption of their purpose. They all have too much inertia, too many factions and squabbling constituencies to be reformed, and all we await is for the environment to change.

When social mood finally does turn down (stocks are hitting new all time highs now, so I'm not holding my breath yet) it will be as if a comet hit the planet. What worked before won't work at all in that new condition. Big, previously the beneficiary of economies of scale, will prove catastrophic.

I see no way this trend toward centralization does not reverse sometime fairly soon, and I see no way its reversal doesn't coincide with the utter failure of centralized systems.

Blogger OGRE April 25, 2017 11:19 AM  

@92 very well said

Blogger wreckage April 25, 2017 11:19 AM  

@86 they're also utterly self centered and extremely averse to any discomfort. If they had to change church they would suffer discomfort (or at least, so they fearfully imagine) and that would be the worst thing ever. But if OTHER people have to leave, well then who cares about their feelings?

This is why Vox is 100% right when he says the only way to get through to these people is to cause them discomfort. We tend not to want to, because we have empathy; but treating sociopaths.... I mean SJW's... as though they had empathy is completely erroneous.

They do lots of empathetic-seeming acting-out, for their own indulgence, and enjoyment of the emotional spectacle they imagine themselves presenting, and most of all because they have learned that it works. And in fact sociopaths can turn their empathy on at will in order to produce the most convincing and effective display.

Anonymous fop April 25, 2017 11:21 AM  

@92 Beautiful.

Blogger Lovekraft April 25, 2017 11:25 AM  

How hard is it for these people to just set up their own fake religion instead of stealing/undermining existing congregations?

Let them find a remote place in the woods where they can get in touch with gaia or some other b.s.

Anonymous BBGKB April 25, 2017 11:26 AM  

The Boy Scouts were thronged repeatedly until they finally gave in.

Seriously you don't know? Even after they let gay scout leaders onto boy cots, jewish lawfare continued until they accepted trannies this past January. Reversing the supreme court decision
http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/30/us/boy-scouts-transgender-membership/

They wont stop even after all scout masters have to wear dresses, because they see scouts anti corruption values as Freiers, just like the founding fathers.

Blogger dc.sunsets April 25, 2017 11:31 AM  

@95 As I understand it, every study performed documents that wealth above necessity has no positive correlation with happiness. We all know this intuitively, yet we're surrounded by temptations to reach for one brass ring after another, to drive an $80,000 car when a $30,000 car will do nicely, to live in a 3,000 sq. ft. home even as the kids grow up and move out, etc.

My thesis is socionomics. It's the only way I can reconcile past social behavior with present social behavior or past fads with present fads.

The goal ALWAYS was to leverage this insight to help me stay on Happiness Path. Note, that's NOT synonymous with Hedonism Path (which is actually the A vs not-A version of Misery Path.)

Funny. I'm not religious (I'm a lapsed High Church Episcopalian) yet I know this world is Satan's. I know that a manic social mood has spread vice (the on-ramp to Misery Path) far and wide, until every waking moment we steep in a swamp of invitations to self-ruin.

It's another of life's innumerable paradoxes: Hardship ends when the mood of the herd turns up after a long decline, and hardship is replaced by many good things. But if mood rallies long enough, all its fruits eventually turn poisonous.

Everywhere I now look, all its fruits are truly toxic. Is it that we return to spiritual awakening, to God or to traditional values, etc. as hardship rises, but once we've spent too long in ease, Satan's evil oozes up from every pore?

I really don't know.

Blogger Sam Spade April 25, 2017 11:33 AM  

Catholic Church is converged too. Christians should search spirituality on their own, or find the rare legit priest.

Anonymous Gen. Kong April 25, 2017 11:35 AM  

Hunsdon wrote:

Maybe they could start a new, more inclusive organization. If only there was a name for such a thing! Wait. Hmm, as I recall, "The People's Temple" might be available.

You do know that the Rev. Jim Jones, later famous as a master purveyor of the finest grape-drank known, got his start in the United Methodist Church, no? That church has been undergoing convergence for a very long time. Same applies to the other 2 largest denoms (RCC, SBC). As for the the triumphalism about dindu-churches being "conservative", look no further than South Africa for your answer. They'll step-n-fetchit when Massa Soros commands them. Otherwise they won't get YT's sheeit so easily.

Anonymous Utah4Trump April 25, 2017 11:36 AM  

They're like the SPLC Intelligence Report combined with campaigning against right wing election candidates

Anonymous kfg April 25, 2017 11:38 AM  

@98:

Totalitarianism is the extreme of collectivism. Diversity makes them uncomfortable. Oh, the irony.

@100: "How hard is it for these people to just set up their own fake religion instead of stealing/undermining existing congregations?"

Not very hard at all. Just as it isn't hard at all to write their own comics, games, etc. But, as per above their goal is not to have these things, but to eliminate what is not these things.

Nothing but the consensus of the collective must be allowed to exist, throughout all of creation. Get it through your head, this is total war. They want you assimilated, or killed.

And as they are, at heart, murderous little bastards, they would prefer killed.

Blogger ZhukovG April 25, 2017 11:41 AM  

@dc.sunsets: Pope Benedict XVI agrees with you.

The church will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning. She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity...

...And so it seems certain to me that the Church is facing very hard times. The real crisis has scarcely begun. We will have to count on terrific upheavals. But I am equally certain about what will remain at the end: not the Church of the political cult, which is dead already, but the Church of faith. She may well no longer be the dominant social power to the extent that she was until recently; but she will enjoy a fresh blossoming and be seen as man's home, where he will find life and hope beyond death.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger/Pope Benedict XVI

Anonymous Gen. Kong April 25, 2017 11:42 AM  

tz wrote:

Just follow the flashing virtue signals on the road to Hell.

"Virtue signal" is another inverted term.


That's quite good. We need to keep that first sentence to be used when needed. 'Follow the flashing virtue-signals' (all lead to the same destination -- 666 Soros Tower).

Blogger Robert Divinity April 25, 2017 11:47 AM  

Nate:

We voted to hold a special conference in 2019 about this. And basically... we are going to kick them out.

All of them.

Oh it will look like a schism and it will be reported that the brave liberals bravely moved on... but that's not the truth. We are kicking them out. Whole conferences if necessary.

And yes... we're keeping the church property. So they can go have their 20 member church services in strip mall retail space somewhere.


The lawfare will be epic as a disproportionate number of Methodists are attorneys. The upside is there probably are as many if not more traditional Methodist lawyers as there are SJW-oriented barristers. The courts have tended to stay out of internal church affairs, but obviously most trial court judges also are converged and will try to promote the SJW contingent. The USSC will have an enormous donnybrook on its hands. SJWs don't give up institutions they have mostly converged without major battles, obviously.

If traditional Methodists prevail, and the odds are they will after many years of litigation, the UMC will be the only functional mainline American Protestant church. The trend has been for the Evangelicals to hold back until the mainstream Protestants are corrupted and then show them how it's really done. It isn't improbable Jim and Bob will get married at the local Assembly of God the same week the Methodists expel their last SSM-friendly Conference.

Blogger dc.sunsets April 25, 2017 11:48 AM  

From Jim Jones to David Koresh, following a tangent from dominant Christian denominations hasn't always worked out too well. In a time of inclusive herding, anyone who sticks out at all generates an almost "immune system" reaction from the collective.

When I was young my mother always asked me, "If everyone goes and jumps in a lake, are you going to go, too?"

I came to realize that the way things work, the herd will absolutely DRAG you along with it. No one is allowed to stand by and watch, especially when the herd's actions are particularly self-destructive.

Everywhere I look I see "Peak Collectivism." I find no historical parallels to the level of lock-step insistence in place today.

Christian organizations are all infected with the Gnostic Heresy. On their mission to create the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth, absolutely no one can be tolerated to stand apart, much less impede their holy works.

Even feigning slight objectivity, these times are indescribably astonishing.

Anonymous CarpeOro April 25, 2017 11:48 AM  

"I'm in deep prayer, reminding myself of what God has called me to do."

In which case, it seems evident that the god she is looking to is not the God that sent his son to us. Her god beckons her to lead others astray and celebrate the kingdom of the earth.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd April 25, 2017 11:49 AM  

Looking Glass wrote:The "final turn" is always Women as Deacons. It's not the Pastors/Ministers, but the Deacon board. Once they turn that, the denomination is a temple to Satan.

Women in leadership is a sign of apostasy. I have no objection to putting a woman in charge of arranging the flowers and decorations, but that isn't leadership.

Midnight Avenue J wrote:Women are not supposed to teach men, and leadership of a congregation implies being their teacher.

Women are not supposed to teach, period.

Titus 2:3-5 3Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.

Older women are to be good examples, not theologians or teachers of theology or pastors or deacons.

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella April 25, 2017 11:50 AM  

whether or not you follow Timothy...most of the churches we've gone to, since we live in a hard-left town, have female pastors. Men have 2,000 years of practice being pastors. They have pastors to measure themselves against. They all fall short of the saints, and yet they strive on. Congregations benefit.

Women are like the dog in a tutu walking. You just admire the effort. They are, in general, really bad pastors. Half-assed sermons, no consolation in sorrow, completely self-centered at all times, unable to bear criticism, bad at running the church bureaucracy, terrible at managing the social dynamics of growing souls...all the sorts of things that seem to come naturally to boys from being part of a pack as a child.

It's like selecting a doctor: pick a white man to make sure the MCAT scores are off the chart high, pick a black female if you want to die.

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella April 25, 2017 11:52 AM  

I might add, my mother is some sort of missionary (adopted, so she's even bad at being a mother) and my step-mother is a leader in her pagan congregation. So I've got the up-close view. Genuinely terrible at what they do. Proud of themselves, and completely clueless about how bad they are at their work. I can bystand, and be in awe of their ineptitude.

Blogger William Meisheid April 25, 2017 11:56 AM  

Re: "LGBT clergy and their supporters plan to pray outside..."

One wonders to whom they will be praying to, since there are rules.

Proverbs 15:8 - "The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD, But the prayer of the upright is His delight."

John 9:31 - "We know that God does not listen to sinners, but He does listen to the one who worships Him and does His will."

Anonymous BBGKB April 25, 2017 11:56 AM  

OT: Woman charged with defending self at #MILO event. We know she was on the right side because she has a husband.
http://q13fox.com/2017/04/24/couple-charged-in-connection-with-shooting-during-milo-yiannopoulos-protest-at-uw/

Blogger SemiSpook37 April 25, 2017 12:00 PM  

ZhukovG wrote:@dc.sunsets: Pope Benedict XVI agrees with you.

The church will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning. She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity...


I definitely agree with this sentiment. If there's one thing I've noticed within the past 25 years or so, it's that when the Faith is legitimately and sincerely proffered to the souls within a parish, the growth is sustained and more in line with traditional teaching. The flip side of that is the whole "faith community" mindset, which definitely has a short-term benefit, but is a more detrimental issue long-term.

Case in point: the town where I grew up only had a single parish, but by the time I was in my early teens, the town's population had grown to an extent where it was necessary to create a new parish. When the boundary was set, my family was in the jurisdiction of this new parish, and we accepted that designation, though many other families on our side of the line didn't. Until a few years ago, I could never really understand why, but then it hit me, and the truths were so obvious that now I feel like an idiot.

Old parish: traditional-minded, some use of Latin, strong polyphony background in sacred music

New parish: "Spirit of V2", hand holding, guitar Masses, pastor relied on non-approved prayers

Any guesses on what else this new parish would gladly support if given the opportunity? They'd jump at the chance to have deaconesses and priestesses, if they could.

Coda: I went to Easter Mass with my family at where they currently live a couple of weeks ago. It was your typical modern crapfest, and my brother (naive as he is) mentioned how he missed this other parish. My response: "I don't."

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky April 25, 2017 12:05 PM  

dc.sunsets wrote:Christian organizations are all infected with the Gnostic Heresy. On their mission to create the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth, absolutely no one can be tolerated to stand apart, much less impede their holy works.

True, the heart of the gnostic error is pride, it's the hope that you can acquire godlike knowledge. I've been for posts by people who support this lesbian bishop and this is screaming out of them. Here's one who sums it all up:

"The point is most of us have evolved and have become educated and understand that these laws are based on lack of intelligence, are irrelevant, unnecessary in today's world because we have more intelligence these days."

They really do believe they have evolved in the Darwinian sense, that they are a higher level of being than those who came before us. They're a better sort, an enlightened set, able to view the bible (a flawed document according to their view) with superior discernment.

They honestly believe their stuff doesn't stink.

Anonymous Jack Amok April 25, 2017 12:10 PM  

I had read before, here I believe, that ordination of women always leads to acceptance of non-biblical lifestyles,

Women are ruled by competing desires to fit in and to stand out. They want to be members in good standing of the herd, but they also want the Alpha to notice them and not the woman next to them. No wonder they are so prone to insanity and attracted to beliefs claiming that something is both A and not-A at the same time.

Blogger James Dixon April 25, 2017 12:12 PM  

> How hard is it for these people to just set up their own fake religion instead of stealing/undermining existing congregations?

It's not. But as already noted, that would not serve their master's purpose.

Anonymous Wraithburn April 25, 2017 12:29 PM  

BunE22, there are some things to be wary of with Independent Baptist churches. In my case, what I've run into is what Dalrock has written about. https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2016/03/04/the-new-face-of-complementarian-feminism/

The churches are independent, but they expect any pastor to have gone to Seminary. It's a big thing around here. And the Seminaries are interconnected in a loose web, where all of the teachers spout the same things. So you don't get the outright rebellion of embracing homosexuality, but you get the more insidious rebellion of complementarianism. It infects the whole structure of the church, flowing down from each pastor, who got all his theological thinking from the Seminary and not the Bible.

Since the churches are independent, there's more flexibility and each church has it's own hangups. A common ones in my area are legalism and teetotalers. I have still found Christians in these churches, and I expect there are good ones scattered about, just be wary and follow the opinion of your husband or father. God has mandated they are to be your spiritual leader.

Anonymous Tipsy April 25, 2017 12:31 PM  

One of my pet peeves: spiritual articles written by woman for the church bulletin. They seem to all be cut from the same cloth: little stories about how her husband did this, or her children did that, or how she was thinking of this. The make some pedantic or jejune point about some pedestrian aspect of the moral law, usually something broadly about niceness, and then ask an inane question about if the reader has ever felt/done/experienced the same way/thing.

Seriously, is this what Christianity is about? Christ is the fulfillment of God's plan of salvation, destroying sin and death and reconciling us to the Father with the promise of eternal life, and all we can talk about is, essentially,"All I really need to know I learned in kindergarten"?

Blogger GracieLou April 25, 2017 12:38 PM  

The above link to the article about Oliveto was indeed pretty horrifying and at the same time really boring because they all sound alike, SJWs, Antifa, Frankenpope, hippies, witches, leftist freaks...heard one, heard 'em all.

The article describes her speech at a conference (early aughts). She asks for all voices to be heard (of course she does) and to listen to the spirit (you can be sure it's not holy) and move away from the past..."that just as the church had overcome “Scriptural norms or church traditions” to reject racism and accept women’s ordination, the church now needs to discard Scriptural and traditional standards in order to affirm homosexuality."

Well THERE. YOU. GO.

"...framed by “pluralism,” “feminism,” “liberationism,” “post-colonialism,” and “ecological and environmental responsibility...also cautioned her audience against taking too high a view of Scripture. “The text, the Bible, is not God"" [But, but, what about THE SPIRIT!]

She, "...directly tackled alleged flaws in Scripture. She repudiated at length what she called the “theology of election and chosenness” that she traced in the Bible from God’s choosing Isaac over Ishmael to the Jews being God’s chosen people and on through the New Testament’s teaching that followers of Jesus Christ have a special relationship with God that non-Christians do not have. [she's pictured holding a sign which says, 'We are all Muslims'] She also specifically criticized the language used by Jesus Christ Himself of separating sheep and goats..Oliveto blamed this acknowledged biblical theme for the evils [EVILS, the Bible is evil!] of colonization, slavery, “destruction of native cultures and religions,” women’s subordination, racism, and current oppression of “the gays and lesbians.”"

So I'm guessing she loves Trump, Brexit and LePen. But isn't it interesting that nationalism is a direct threat to free sodomy.

Anyway, she then accused St. Paul of patriarchy for casting a demon out of a slave girl (Acts 16:16-18) "as this demon helped enrich her owners by giving her fortune-telling abilities. Oliveto declared that by casting the demon out of the girl, Paul did nothing to make the girl’s life better Oliveto was very concerned by questions about the imposition of religious values..."

Satan doesn't cast out Satan and all that. And the money, the moneeee!!!

She finished with a cute story about the successful Satan-churchy indoctrination of perversion in children, "Overhearing, the mother of the friend told Cliff not to be silly, as he knew that boys could not get married to each other. But Cliff just looked up at her “like she was crazy” and declared, “in my church, they can!”

So as noted here before...it's all about sex with kids.

Blogger Resident Moron™ April 25, 2017 12:42 PM  

No church is left un-assaulted because our enemy knows he can't afford that.

Even the traditional hardliners are wavering; the Seventh Gay Adventists have their own lobby working inside that church. And Vox is entirely right on all fronts; women's ordination was the edge of the wedge, and it was men who failed to slam the door repeatedly on that toe until it was withdrawn. Emboldened by this victory the enemies of God have predictably clamored for ever more obscene blasphemies.

Anonymous Anonymous April 25, 2017 12:43 PM  

Why don't they start their own church? This isn't an "equality" issue. The LGBQwhatever crowd isn't interested in equality. They want to tear down the tenets of Christianity.

Blogger Vikki Wilson April 25, 2017 12:44 PM  

It seems to me that the theology of these churches boils down to "If Jesus was alive today he'd think exactly the same as I. (also the same way secular society thinks)

Jesus may even say "Who am I to judge?"...

Anonymous Tipsy April 25, 2017 12:53 PM  

a deplorable rubberducky wrote:dc.sunsets wrote:Christian organizations are all infected with the Gnostic Heresy. On their mission to create the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth, absolutely no one can be tolerated to stand apart, much less impede their holy works.

True, the heart of the gnostic error is pride, it's the hope that you can acquire godlike knowledge. I've been for posts by people who support this lesbian bishop and this is screaming out of them. Here's one who sums it all up:

"The point is most of us have evolved and have become educated and understand that these laws are based on lack of intelligence, are irrelevant, unnecessary in today's world because we have more intelligence these days."



So true, but wait! There's more!

The spiritual pride of the gnostic induces him to look at his sins and not repent, but rather, to excuse himself because of his belief that by his "superior" spiritual insight, knowledge or sensitivity he is above the moral law, eventually making some aspect of his sinfulness or disordered mind the cornerstone of his belief.

At this point, however, his world becomes topsy-turvy, with evil being good, and as a result he must expend a lot of energy maintaining the narrative that his world view is true and policing others into believing the same thing.

Soon, all charity is drained from the project, as spiritual power or influence becomes the supreme good. Gone, too, are all the things that are pleasing to God: repentance, praise, fear of the Lord, joy, moral discipline, purity, humility.

It's a diabolical project from top to bottom.

Anonymous Locke April 25, 2017 1:02 PM  

Actively living in sin and encouraging others to do the same. How any Church can allow this and be called Christian is beyond me. She is clearly violating God's word and trying to lead followers astray.

https://www.openbible.info/topics/leading_a_child_astray

Blogger Midnight Avenue J April 25, 2017 1:08 PM  

"Ominous CowherdApril 25, 2017 11:49 AM


Midnight Avenue J wrote:Women are not supposed to teach men, and leadership of a congregation implies being their teacher.

Women are not supposed to teach, period. "

An absolute and succinct statement.

Anonymous b3k April 25, 2017 1:09 PM  

The forces of Convergence are coming for the Southern Baptist Convention as well. The SBC is complacent, because they won the Conservative Resurgence 30 to 25 years ago. But, SJWs are infiltrating SBC entities, especially starting with the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission.

The ERLC is filing amicus briefs to support mosque building. ERLC leader Russel Moore says that, while they shouldn't attend gay weddings, Christians can go to the reception afterward to celebrate the forthcoming sodomy. Karen Swallow Prior, an ERLC fellow, has a number of SJW causes she supports under color of Christianity. And next year, the ERLC is hosting a conference in honor of a serial adulterer and Arian heretic, MLK Jr, because racism.

Blogger Lazarus April 25, 2017 1:31 PM  

VD wrote:May I suggest "thronged" or perhaps "penetrated".

I don't speak in dialectic to people who can't stay awake when presented with difficult three-syllable words.


Logonarcoleptics are a pox on civilized discourse.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 25, 2017 1:38 PM  

@129 b3k
But, SJWs are infiltrating SBC entities, especially starting with the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission.

These "commissions" are a weakness in the wall in every church. They meet all year, then issue a bland report full of "joyful love for Christ" and a few hooks or time bombs buried deep in the text. Permanent commissions should not exist. Any commission to study something should exist for one or two years at the most, then dissolve. Because a permanent commission will become a bureaucracy, and that attracts SJW's just as dung draws beetles.

Anyone in a church where one of these commissions exists should be continually, politely, in a loving way ask why it cannot be dissolved. Catholics should look carefully at Pope Francine's commission to study the issue of women as deacons, because reasons.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 25, 2017 1:41 PM  

Oh, and any time any Ilk have the chance to get onto a budget committee, do so. Defunding the SJW's in the name of fiscal issues is not as dramatic as a showdown, but it works just as well.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros April 25, 2017 1:44 PM  

"How beautiful that they are praying - have they ever considered to whom they are directing these prayers?"

Moloch and Mammon, through the god of this age, Procrustes.

Blogger Nate April 25, 2017 1:46 PM  

"The lawfare will be epic as a disproportionate number of Methodists are attorneys."

it will be. but history is with us. Local churches do not own building they meet in. The UMC does. so they can leave... but they can't take the property. That's ours.

We ain't gonna give it up for a bunch of liberals that have ruined every church they've taken over.

There is a giant UMC in downtown boston with a huge Black Lives Matter banner up.. and the idiot female "minister" was bragging about having 70 people in church on easter.

Forgive me Vox... I know the rules.

But sincerely.

Fuck these people.

Blogger Magister Wood April 25, 2017 1:47 PM  

So many claim the voice of Satan is the call of God. Sad.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 25, 2017 2:11 PM  

VD
If those who wish to formally embrace everything from same-sex relationships to gluttony

A progtard Boomer pastor once told me that the Bible didn't really call out gluttony as a sin. Yeah, he was fat.

Blogger Nate April 25, 2017 2:14 PM  

"So many claim the voice of Satan is the call of God. Sad."

They actually aren't even claiming that. The church is nothing to them. God is nothing to them.

the church is just something else to leverage toward their cause. and the pulpit is a microphone to be used to spread the word of their cause.

Connecting people to Jesus is not even remotely on their radar. It doesn't matter a whit to them.

Anonymous kfg April 25, 2017 2:23 PM  

"Connecting people to Jesus is not even remotely on their radar."

Sure it is, but in the negative case. They take over churches for the same reason they take over auto plants - to burn the product.

Blogger Feather Blade April 25, 2017 2:35 PM  

Ominous Cowherd wrote:Women are not supposed to teach, period.

Titus 2:3-5 3Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.


Hate to tell you this, Cowherd, but your assertion is directly contradicted by the Scripture you quoted.

Blogger Sagramore April 25, 2017 2:37 PM  

same-sex relationships to gluttony

Since homosexuality is really narcissism, there is a lot of crossover between the two. At least as far as I've noticed.

Blogger tz April 25, 2017 2:38 PM  

First, it is Christ's body, and his church, and we shouldn't underestimate his power, however we also should remember the large number of parables about "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord'".

Lets use the correct term. Heresy and Heretics. They are NOT Christians, no more than the Gnostics, Albegentians, or Arians. They may be nice, even charitable, but Christian means a follower of Christ - the real one, not the SJW rewrite. And I'm not speaking of complex theological points (e.g. what separates Mormons) but the plain commandments and Traditions that have been the same for centuries.

If Satan isn't attacking your church, you are doing something wrong because it isn't a threat. The feel good churches are just Sunday morning entertainment, and in an economic collapse, it will sort out the wheat from the tares.

Blogger Sagramore April 25, 2017 2:44 PM  

@9 I won't work for any company that drug tests, regardless if they use some BS 'safety' justification.

While IMHO it is a dumb rule (did you ask or tell if she was a sushi eater too?) it selects for rulebreakers, which I guess is what you don't want in semen (or women).

Blogger Nate April 25, 2017 2:54 PM  

I appreciate the support folks. I have to say... we've been on the front lines of this fight for 50 years... and every time we take a hit we get evangelicals shouting about how we've lost. Well we're still here. We're still fighting. And we're gonna win dammit.

Anonymous kfg April 25, 2017 2:59 PM  

"it selects for rulebreakers, which I guess is what you don't want . . ."

. . . on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier. Safety is an illusion, but risk is not.

Anonymous Crew April 25, 2017 3:02 PM  

She's not an Episcopal bishop, but the bonfire would still burn, Victoria!

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd April 25, 2017 3:12 PM  

Feather Blade wrote:... your assertion is directly contradicted by the Scripture you quoted.

I suspect that we have different assumptions and paradigms. What do you assert to be women's role?

OpenID notebuyer April 25, 2017 3:15 PM  

Why do they insist on taking over institutions? Buerge had this pegged:

"David Burge
‏@iowahawkblog
1. Identify a respected institution.
2. kill it.
3. gut it.
4. wear its carcass as a skin suit, while demanding the respect owed to that skin.”

Blogger Midnight Avenue J April 25, 2017 3:27 PM  

Women just give birth. After that, men teach all children to speak, cook, clean, sew, use the toilet, take care of their belongings and hygiene, reading optional, manage schedules and a household.

It's not difficult. Vox is a fool for allowing SB to take charge of teaching his son and daughters anything beyond how to find the teat.

Anonymous craig April 25, 2017 3:28 PM  

Feather Blade wants us not to notice the inevitable (per Conquest's Second Law) convergence that starts with this, and ends up with this.

Blogger Matamoros April 25, 2017 3:30 PM  

The Methodists (UMC) were all in on black civil rights and anti-racism by the mid-1960s at least.

Blogger Basil Makedon April 25, 2017 3:33 PM  

I can almost feel the torches of the witch-hunters, but such is life. Here goes.

I'm limiting this to the question of whether women can legitimately be Deacons of the Church. I'm not going to wade into the issue of female priests/pastors:

Romans 16:1-2 refers to Pheobe as a Deacon. I'm fairly sure that the earliest Christians did not believe in gender fluidity so I feel confident Phoebe was a woman. Paul wrote:

"1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church at Cenchreae, 2 so that you may welcome her in the Lord as is fitting for the saints, and help her in whatever she may require from you, for she has been a benefactor of many and of myself as well." Romans 16:1-2, NRSV.

On the other hand, the KJV interprets this as simply "a servant of the church." For those who are interested, the actual Greek word used is "diakonos," which is obviously where we get our English word.

While the passage does not expressly state what Pheobe's duties were, I don't think we can write her off as just a lady who kept the place clean. She was to be greeted as a person of importance (fitting for the saints) and was to be assisted in whatever she "may require from you."

This seems to raise her above an ordinary "servant" as in "we are all servants of Christ."

Interestingly, an extra-scriptural source supports "Deaconesses" as some kind of early church leader. Specifically, we also read about Deaconesses from Pliny's Letter to Trajan:

"Because you asked this, I considered it all the more necessary to examine, even with the use of torture, two female slaves who were called deaconesses, in order to get to the truth. But I found nothing except a superstition depraved and immoderate."

Since they were "slaves," their status as servants in the eyes of Pliny and Trajan would have been presumed and not needed to be repeated. Pliny clearly uses "Deaconess" as a title. Moreover, the fact that Pliny tortured them at all supports this. As leaders, they would have greater knowledge of the Church.

While I acknowledge that there are some counter-arguments, I believe there is good reason to believe that the earliest Christians permitted female Deacons. Given that, I don't see how one can simply declare them as apostates or heretics -- if Paul (author of Romans) is an apostate or a heretic, then we're all screwed.

Blogger Matamoros April 25, 2017 3:37 PM  

26 Cadwallander J Eastern/Russian Orthodox have the inside track right now

'Fraid not. The only reason one would think that is that one is not really familiar with them.

In many ways they were the first Protestants. They are stuck in pre-1453 oriental world view. Their hierarchy is rife with homosexuals. Theology is problematic.

Without trying to be sectarian, only the Catholic Church has a scriptural warrant - Matt. 16:18.

It is also the only "universal", i.e. Catholic, Church in the world, as all the Orthodox are national churches controlled by their national political rulers.

The Catholic Church has managed real reform of itself countless times, and shall again once Bergoglio is gone. As one wag stated, no human institution could have lasted with the many bad popes for 2000 years, so that is a sign that it is, indeed, of divine origin and protected.

Blogger Resident Moron™ April 25, 2017 3:37 PM  

Basil

There were women prophets in OT times, too.

But only when the men were so feckless and apostate that none of them would do the job they were supposed to be doing.

Now which came first, the chicken or the egg, is one of those questions that's cute but irrelevant.

In my experience, such as it is, you're either on an upward or a downward spiral; there's no standing still.

Exceptions like Phoebe only emphasise that her existence as a deacon is exceptional, tied to exceptional circumstances, and not normative.

Blogger SirHamster April 25, 2017 4:12 PM  

Ominous Cowherd wrote:I suspect that we have different assumptions and paradigms. What do you assert to be women's role?

Is one who is teaching a teacher?

"Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good ..."

Yes, and no.

Yes, women should teach by example with godly living. No, women should not be teachers.

Anonymous JoeAmerica April 25, 2017 4:18 PM  

The Methodist Church has been in steep decline for some time now, I think there is no possibility there shrinking will slow anytime soon. This is pretty consistent with any other organization with a substantial post modernist infiltration, demographic and material decline.

Blogger Nate April 25, 2017 4:32 PM  

"I can almost feel the torches of the witch-hunters, but such is life. Here goes. "

Basil... don't forget Lydia.

Paul was writing a specific letter with advise addressing a specific situation in a specific place.

It is obvious that he was not making a general statement for everyone. Because again... we have examples of female teachers and leaders who Paul praised. in fact... The Word only made it to Spain because Lydia took it there.

I suppose the fundamentalists here would suggest that Lydia should have waited for a man to do it.

Blogger Matamoros April 25, 2017 4:33 PM  

Well, it looks like TripAdvisor is converged. Just got an email titled "help refugees in need"

Text:

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Blogger Nate April 25, 2017 4:35 PM  

"The Methodist Church has been in steep decline for some time now, I think there is no possibility there shrinking will slow anytime soon. "

False. The UMC has been under harsh attack for 50 years.

The Book of Discipline has never been changed.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 25, 2017 4:47 PM  

@151 Basil Makedown
I'm limiting this to the question of whether women can legitimately be Deacons of the Church.

The Presbyterian Church in America, PCA, just completed a study on that. It's 63 pages long, and concludes that women cannot be ordained as Deacons, but can serve as helpers or assistants to Deacons and should be encouraged.

Muh Phoebe! and Mul Pliny! are both in there, along with many Scripture proofs that you probably won't like.

Ad interim report on women serving in ministry in the church PDF

Dude, women are not just men with boobs. They can't replace men, any more than men can be pregnant. Biology is not a social construct.

Anonymous BBGKB April 25, 2017 4:50 PM  

I won't work for any company that drug tests, regardless if they use some BS 'safety' justification

Seeing 3 black/brown travelers in one week get the boot over drug testing is one of the reasons I think the junkie nurse/doctor programs are created just to sustain DieVerseCity. That Dr pulled off the United plane traded drugs for sex with a patient and got his license back. Or it would just be that it's hard to see a heplock in a coworkers leg if they are white.

Anonymous kfg April 25, 2017 5:00 PM  

https://www.autostraddle.com/its-time-for-people-to-stop-using-the-social-construct-of-biological-sex-to-defend-their-transmisogyny-240284/

Anonymous CarpeOro April 25, 2017 5:01 PM  

Reminds me a bit of Lars Walker's book "Wolf Time" (read it years before I heard him mentioned here). Set in the spiritual collapse of what is now called the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America if I recall. *As noted before, I am one that voluntarily left the ELCA years ago when I saw where it was going. Getting a bit tempted to try the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church now I am back home in Michigan - charismatics are too vulnerable to becoming cult of the pastor from what I have seen.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 25, 2017 5:08 PM  

Basil Makedon wrote:Interestingly, an extra-scriptural source supports "Deaconesses" as some kind of early church leader. Specifically, we also read about Deaconesses from Pliny's Letter to Trajan:


This one is trotted out by the feminists all the time and is directly and deliberately false.
The "Deaconesses" of the early church were women who were designated to baptize women. In many areas, the persons to be baptised were traditionally nude or nearly nude, and it was both scandalous and a temptation for them to be baptized by a man. So having been examined in their desire for baptism and approved by the priest, the actual immersion would be performed by a trusted older woman.

So yes, there were deaconesses, but they were not equivalent to deacons. rather, they were Titus 2 women.

Blogger Happy LP9 April 25, 2017 5:27 PM  

Crying with her wife? This is as culture shock as when I was told there's 50 genders, just to google its 71!

Ladies and their solipsism.

I exercise great compassion and kindness towards the mild non moronic LGBT community, I try to listen but my kind isn't out there taking over schools, churches and entire industries like fashion taking them into complete ruin and deception.

Women in leadership or over authority of men and acting against the bible are simply wrong and cannot be granted compassion or kindness but complete condemnation. I do understand in the OT Debra was written of but this is not a valid argument here, that was used on me in a debate I was making how women are never theologians for a reason.

I mean no harm or hatred but this is bad for the family and bad for kids and disturbs people. This is why women cannot have too much power they pervert it.

I cannot accept there is no condemnation for those in Christ if we knowingly lead people astray to accept the unacceptable in these churches, its like Christian science od'ed on heroin - I cannot abide by it or accept it, Karen should resign and never be accepted into a church in a place of leadership, its not right.

I accept this murky matter or how some say its murky but Vox has explained this to the point it cannot be misunderstood.

Blogger Happy LP9 April 25, 2017 5:31 PM  

163 It alarms me when women in our present day announce themselves as prophetesses. They come through town and rap then leave.

I cannot accept that notion, am I wrong here? The affairs of the Church which is to be owned by God, ran by holy men for the instruction and survival of the Christian faith which is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I detest when God is feminized.

Blogger DonReynolds April 25, 2017 5:33 PM  

Any person who insists on rejecting the teachings of a church, has no business being in that church in the first place. No church should be asked or expected to alter the specific elements of their faith to suit anyone and everyone who walks into the congregation on Sunday morning.
That would be the case with ANY church or religion. It simply does not exist to make you feel better about your lifestyle or make you feel welcome if you practice sin in your daily life. The nonsense is that churches should be "inclusive" of everyone, regardless of their acceptance or rejection of the tenants of the faith. The ultimate outcome of a focus on a church being "inclusive" is virtually no belief system at all....other than the part about "inclusive" and embracing beliefs that are contrary to virtually ever element of the faith. Yes, it is that simple.

Blogger Nate April 25, 2017 5:36 PM  

"Muh Phoebe! and Mul Pliny! are both in there, along with many Scripture proofs that you probably won't like"

actually we aren't nearly as hung up on this as you guys are. The point is... regardless of how you can twist scripture... women factually were leaders in the apostolic church. Yes... including pheobe and more importantly lydia.

Not to mention Timothy's own grandmother who paul credits.

Do I think the church is better off without female ministers? Yes. Actually i do. 99 out of 100 female ministers I have met and heard are absolutely terrible.

1... exactly 1... and old lady named Rosemary... was the single best gospel preacher I have ever heard.

I don't know why the Spirit called her... nor do I know why the Spirit so strong in her. All I do know is that the Spirit did call her... and the Spirit was strong in her.

Blogger Happy LP9 April 25, 2017 5:44 PM  

167 Nate, is Debra (Judges) appropriate here too? I don't know its why I ask.

Blogger Happy LP9 April 25, 2017 5:45 PM  

167 this is helpful, I can understand this; "I don't know why the Spirit called her... nor do I know why the Spirit so strong in her. All I do know is that the Spirit did call her... and the Spirit was strong in her."

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 25, 2017 5:50 PM  

@167 Nate
actually we aren't nearly as hung up on this as you guys are. The point is... regardless of how you can twist scripture... women factually were leaders in the apostolic church. Yes... including pheobe and more importantly lydia.

The exceptions that prove the rule, dude. Before you start accusing anyone of twisting Scripture, remember that the Reformed who are all "hung up" on the Word of God such as the clear requirements for Deacon and Elder in Timothy don't have lesbian Bishops, or lesbian elders, or lesbian pastors. Y'all do have that, and it's going to split your church. It almost always starts with the lady Deacons.

Once a church as women Deacons, then "why not me too!" guarantees there will be women preachers, women elders / bishops / overseers. Then that church finds out what "women ruin everything" means; lesbians in leadership positions, for example.

Praying for your church, Nate, for wisdom to drop down from God onto the church court.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 25, 2017 5:56 PM  

OT: overheard;
Character in some children's cartoon show from the 1980s: Why is this shower locked fromt he outside?"
My Beloved Nell:"It was made by Germans."

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 25, 2017 6:03 PM  

LP9, in Judges 4 God told Barak to get up and go towards Mt. Tabor, where he and his men would beat Sisera. He didn't wanna. Deborah the prophetess reminded him of this, and he was all "will you go wif me? Huh? Huh?".

Judges 4:9
9 And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the Lord shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh.

God spoke through Deborah for sure. Jael gets mentioned once, a mere woman with a mallet and a tent peg, maybe she was a real unpleasant piece of work, but she's the ultimate victor over Sisera. Because God said so.

Truly the victory belonged to God, not wimpy Barak. Deborah told Barak that to his face, Barak went right along. Now, does this prove that women should be generals? LOL, not even! It proves God uses any tool he wants to accomplish His ends, for His glory.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 25, 2017 6:07 PM  

Not All Women Are like That.
Nate Knows A Good One.

So long as you tolerate women pretending to preach, pretending to govern and pretending to evangelize, your church is doomed. There's no point fighting if that's where your hill is.

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky April 25, 2017 6:10 PM  

Women were not only very active in the Early Church, they were active in the life of Christ. We Catholics hold that the most perfect human being (the divine being of Christ does not count in this case) is the Virgin Mary, who birthed Christ. Then there's Mary Magdalene, who discovered the Resurrection. And there were other women figuring highly in the Gospels, too. And Mary, Mother of Jesus, was there among all the eleven remaining Apostles for His Ascension. And our tradition holds that she ascended to heaven herself.

Btw we're still catching hell for our devotion to the Virgin Mary, to whom we'll even pray for intercession, such as in the Hail Mary. Pope, schope, compared to the Blessed Mother.

She is in our mind just as alive and just as much a part of the life of the Church today as ever.

Yet, as central as she and Mary Magdalene and the other women were in the life of Christ and of the Early Church, they were not made Apostles. Doesn't mean women were 2nd class citizens of the Early Church. Hardly. They had other roles. Important roles.

And nothing tops the role of the Virgin Mary.

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky April 25, 2017 6:18 PM  

To clarify, after re-reading I should have emphasized this more clearly (wish we had the edit feature!) : Apostleship (priesthood), is an all male role. The Early Church model is the best (and also the one that has the known advantage of actually working!).

Anonymous Tipsy April 25, 2017 6:22 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:So long as you tolerate women pretending to preach, pretending to govern and pretending to evangelize, your church is doomed. There's no point fighting if that's where your hill is.

Another thing: Ordained ministers are icons of Christ. In the case of a deacon, it's an icon of Christ the servant. Mess with the gender of your ministers and your Christology suffers a blow.

Which is in part why JPII instructed thusly: "Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful."

Blogger Basil Makedon April 25, 2017 6:41 PM  

@159 First, thanks for the link, it's an interesting read. I skimmed it, and will read it in detail later. I am aware of many of the passages cited, but some of the historical references are new to me.

Second, I'm not at all sure where you get the idea that I believe that gender is a social construct. "Deacon" isn't the same as "Deaconess" just as "Executor" isn't the same as "Executrix" yet they have the same function. Executrix (like Deaconess) is an archaic word.

Third, I didn't claim that Deacons were ordained in the early church, only it was a "title" that conveyed some quality of leadership.

@163 I don't disagree with you. Yet, the fact remains that they had women are performing sacraments, albeit administering the sacrament under the borrowed authority of a priest.

@156 Nate, I had forgotten about Lydia. Bad Basil. I also agree that Paul isn't being general when discussing Phoebe in Romans, he's marking a specific person out for very special treatment.

Again, I'll try to be clear. All that I'm saying is that you can't declare it heresy/apostasy given the historical record. It is perfectly OK with me if Church A or Church B wants to say that there will be no women as Deacons (@159 technically Deaconesses) in that Church.

Everything not forbidden is not compulsory.

Anonymous Marvin Boggs April 25, 2017 6:44 PM  

@45: Be like the Berean Christians were: search the scriptures to confirm the truth of what's being preached. If it is not, talk to the pastor (people do make mistakes). If the mistakes persist, look elsewhere.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 25, 2017 7:05 PM  

Basil Makedon wrote: I don't disagree with you. Yet, the fact remains that they had women are performing sacraments, albeit administering the sacrament under the borrowed authority of a priest.
Under the rules of the ancient Church, and at least the Catholic church to this very day, any person can baptize. It is not even required to be a Christian, only to "intend as the church intends" and to use the formula "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit."
Basil Makedon wrote:Again, I'll try to be clear. All that I'm saying is that you can't declare it heresy/apostasy given the historical record. It is perfectly OK with me if Church A or Church B wants to say that there will be no women as Deacons (@159 technically Deaconesses) in that Church.
No-one cares if it's okay with your. It obviously is. The question is if it's okay with Jesus, and it's obviously not.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd April 25, 2017 7:13 PM  

Basil Makedon wrote:I'm limiting this to the question of whether women can legitimately be Deacons of the Church.

If a woman is given the task of decorating the church, I wouldn't call it apostasy, because that is not a leadership or teaching position. If the church wants to call that being a Deacon, I wouldn't quibble. A deacon does necessary, secular tasks so the elders can concentrate on prayer and teaching.

Women aren't to lead or teach. With a few miraculous exceptions, they aren't made for those things.

Anonymous Prayers answered for the Trumpslide April 25, 2017 7:45 PM  

My church body is a very conservative church. We hold to Scripture on the role of man and woman. We do not ordain women, women cannot serve on council, read Scripture in the worship service because these actions would have her in authority over a man.

Anonymous Prayers answered for the Trumpslide April 25, 2017 7:48 PM  

Oh and it is Lutheran. We abhor the ELCA for their horrible theology.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 25, 2017 8:15 PM  

@151 Basil Makedon
I'm limiting this to the question of whether women can legitimately be Deacons of the Church.

Asked and answered. You didn't like the answer.

@177 Basil Makedon
Again, I'll try to be clear. All that I'm saying is that you can't declare it heresy/apostasy given the historical record. It is perfectly OK with me if Church A or Church B wants to say that there will be no women as Deacons (@159 technically Deaconesses) in that Church

Dude, moving your goalposts at this point makes me wonder what your real intent is.

Blogger Mountain Man April 25, 2017 8:17 PM  

"The exceptions that prove the rule, dude. Before you start accusing anyone of twisting Scripture, remember that the Reformed who are all "hung up" on the Word of God such as the clear requirements for Deacon and Elder in Timothy don't have lesbian Bishops, or lesbian elders, or lesbian pastors. Y'all do have that, and it's going to split your church. It almost always starts with the lady Deacons.”

Amen to that ! The reformers/calvinists may have their blind spots but a proper understanding and role of the sexes is not one of them.

Blogger Mountain Man April 25, 2017 8:29 PM  

" As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.” - Isaiah 3:12

Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first , then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into transgression.
- 1 Timothy 2 11-14

Anonymous Clay The Swamp Spartan April 25, 2017 8:33 PM  

Wow. A long thread about Methodists, without really criticizing other religions. I'd say that's unusual.

And yes, I agree with you.

As far as I'm concerned...anyone can baptize anyone. I remember asking a Priest how the pioneers and settlers who had never seen a "religious" person with his hat in hand, could baptize his child.

God only knows the intent of the heart, he said.

I believe that.

Anonymous fop April 25, 2017 8:53 PM  

Paul was writing a specific letter with advise addressing a specific situation in a specific place. It is obvious that he was not making a general statement for everyone.

This is a common misconception which I also once held, but 1 Timothy makes it clear that Paul's justification was Adam and Eve, (that is, human nature). It was not some local squabble. There's really no getting around it.

Anonymous Clay The Swamp Spartan April 25, 2017 9:09 PM  

BTW. Ya know, I wonder about the Coptics.

Why do we seem to get our Christian panties in a knot, for a few days, when they get slaughtered and bombed.

Just makes me wonder. What IS the consensus of whom we call a Christian, and who is not? You think the First United Methodist Upper African Episcopalian Church is Christian?

They live in Muslim countries. Is it because they are considered "Christians"?

India, Indonesia, China..you can name a bunch more, I'm sure. Christians in the US criticize Christians of other faiths all damned day long.

The Coptics aren't long for this world anymore.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 25, 2017 10:08 PM  

As far as I'm concerned...anyone can baptize anyone. I remember asking a Priest how the pioneers and settlers who had never seen a "religious" person with his hat in hand, could baptize his child.
From a Catholic perspective, the question is who is the effective actor of baptism. If baptism is an imbuing of God's own divine life into the baptized, the obviously God is the one doing so. The person saying the words is not a magician, commanding the deity, but a supplicant asking for grace on behalf of another, as Jesus commanded we do.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY April 25, 2017 11:45 PM  

John the Baptist dunked 'em , he didn't sprinkle 'em. Don't remember hearing about him baptizing babies, either. And Jesus said nothing about prayin' to his momma, either.
The Reformation happened for a reason, you know.
But carry on ,please.

Blogger FALPhil April 26, 2017 12:04 AM  

@152 Without trying to be sectarian, only the Catholic Church has a scriptural warrant - Matt. 16:18.

I always get tickled when a Roman wannabe theologian trots this one out. The never seem to realize how uneducated it makes them look.

Anonymous Daniel H April 26, 2017 12:07 AM  

Oliveto certainly did invade. She was born on Long Island, Italian heritage, so she was almost certainly baptized a Roman Catholic. When she took up her "career" as a minister the Catholic Church would not ordain her (as it still wouldn't today, thankfully) so she looked for another Church and entered through an unguarded door. She certainly knew that there were conspirators and sympathizers in the Methodist Church. So she just bided her time, and made her move. Invasion, subornation, conquest.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 26, 2017 1:35 AM  

A (former) friend is Baha'i, and one of her relatives was also a Baha'i, while also "serving" as a Methodist minister, or rather, pretending. His excuse was that well, he was in his 50s and couldn't walk away from his job and his UMC pension. Besides "it's all the same".

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