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Thursday, April 13, 2017

Mailvox: Convergence and the Presbyterian Church

A reader writes up a very informative summary of Gary North's detailed account of how the Presbyterian Church was successfully converged over a period of 60 years.

Given how reliably organizations get captured by the left, there's an amazing lack of curiosity about how it happens. I recently read Gary North's 1996 book Crossed Fingers: How Liberals Captured the Presbyterian Church, a rare case study of liberal takeover. North provides a detailed - at 1100 pages too detailed - case study of how the left took over the northern Presbyterian church between 1875 and 1936.

This books echoes many of the same themes of SJWs Always Lie. It's uncanny how little things have changed, including the failures of conservatives. I'm attaching three docs: a one page summary, a writeup of lessons learned from the book, and a collection of substantial quotations from the book that pulls key points out of this monster. I thought you might be interested in other researchers who validate your SJW analysis, and am providing multiple length options depending on your interest level.

Crossed Fingers: How Liberals Captured the Presbyterian Church
By Gary North / Institute for Christian Economics (September 1996)

1. The single most important cause of the liberal capture of the Presbyterian Church was the conservatives’ failure to kick out liberal heretics and impose negative sanctions while they had the chance.

2. Liberal strategies and characteristics that led to their victory:

  • Willingness to lie (they had their “fingers crossed” when swearing that they held to the Westminster Confession): “SJWs always lie”
  • Intense public calls for freedom of inquiry, tolerance, pluralism, unity while weak or assimilating power
  • Deliberate focus on institutional capture, which included the property, money, and brand prestige.
  • Long game perspective (the takeover took 60 years: 1875-1936)
  • Far superior skills at bureaucratic maneuvering, including an analog of a “code of conduct”.
  • Presence of amenable authorities (the WASP establishment, media) & outside money (esp. from John D. Rockefeller, Jr.)
  • The liberals “took care of their wounded” – anyone who suffered in the fight got a cushy job somewhere else.
  • Once they consolidated power they were willing to kick out conservative leaders like Machen.

3. Conservative strategies and characteristics that led to their failure:

  • They also had “crossed fingers” and did not themselves fully support the Westminster Confession (e.g., they rejected six day creationism). This limited their ability to call out others for heresy.
  • They were on the “wrong side of history” with slavery (i.e., took a stance of neutrality on what the Bible said about it), which weakened their moral authority, rather like modern political conservatives and the Civil Right Act.
  • Initial inability to respond compellingly to key challenges to orthodoxy: Darwinism and Higher Criticism
  • Strategy was purely defensive – nothing on offense (“surrender on the installment plan”)
  • Focused on ideas, theology and church mission, not institutions and bureaucracy, and had a very weak understanding of bureaucratic warfare.
  • Were incredibly polite, charitable, and moderate in their rhetoric – they rarely dared to directly confront heretics

4. Other lessons and implications

  • The modernists were fighting to win the war; the conservatives didn’t even understand they were in one
  • High standards people tend to lose out vs. low standards people. Key: conflict between orthodoxy and church growth mindset, stay pure but small or grow large but compromise on beliefs.
  • The more bureaucratic and complex an organization, the more vulnerable to liberal takeover (Confessional documents and hierarchical structures were perceived as strengths but were – and are – really weaknesses)
  • Confessional documents are irrelevant when faced with liars (cf: today’s US Constitutional law)
  • Presbyterian takeover pre-dated Gramsci and could not have been inspired by him
  • Presbyterian takeover pre-dated the modern political Conservative movement
  • You can’t fight the tape – the tides of history were with the liberals
  • Despite best efforts of smart but flawed conservatives, the liberals won: God preserved only a remnant and the Presbyterian church was lost
  • The winners write history; noxious liberal causes like eugenics were memory holed.

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204 Comments:

1 – 200 of 204 Newer› Newest»
Blogger camperbot April 13, 2017 8:08 AM  

Francis Schaeffer mentions the defrocking of Machen in (I think) The Great Evangelical Disaster as a turning point in the liberal takeover. Very astute analysis for the time, but then he was no fool.

Blogger J A Baker April 13, 2017 8:09 AM  

SJW convergence could be interpreted as the judgment of God on a church that has compromised on those fundamental and crucial doctrines of the Christian Faith.

Blogger Chris Mallory April 13, 2017 8:20 AM  

This has been in the local news in the past week. The local church is opposed to SSM, the national organization is attempting to kick them out of the building.

" A Presbyterian congregation is facing excommunication and has been asked to vacate its church after a divergence with the national church on same-sex marriage.
The Paducah Sun reports that the First Presbyterian Church of Calvert City requested dismissal from its denomination following the changed description of marriage issued by the Presbyterian Church (USA) in 2015. In response, the Presbytery of Western Kentucky, which serves as the regional governing body, has asked the congregation to vacate the church by April 19.
Clerk of session Paul Ambler, whose wife is the pastor, said that the congregation supports civil rights but does not wish to bring secular practices into a church context."

Blogger Jim Carroll April 13, 2017 8:20 AM  

These points conflict:

1) Once they consolidated power they were willing to kick out conservative leaders like Machen.

2) They also had “crossed fingers” and did not themselves fully support the Westminster Confession (e.g., they rejected six day creationism).

Machen, a great man, was himself NOT a "six day creationist."

Anonymous VFM #6306 April 13, 2017 8:22 AM  

...Except the convergence came against a relatively uncompromised church. The compromises for the most part from the SJW side at first.

Blogger Elocutioner April 13, 2017 8:25 AM  

SJW's are the parasites of a high trust society. They thrive on the naivete and weakness of good people. Despite the vast harm they've done their wickedness has been preparing us for the coming season as they've shown us how our kindness can be so callously exploited.

Blogger dienw April 13, 2017 8:28 AM  

Deliberate focus on institutional capture, which included the property, money, and brand prestige.
This key tells me that the convergence was not happenstance as a but planned: to have been deliberately focused there must have been correspondence, conversations, and planning meetings: a deliberate, planned swarming of the locusts. By the time the locust swarm hit the wheat fields, the farmers had already lost.

Blogger Koanic April 13, 2017 8:30 AM  

The fate of cucks is to be bullied by faggots while their daughters are fucked by bums.

That's why God covenanted with Abraham after he turned the other cheek, and loved David for his meek prepping of Philistine bulls.

Anonymous Lazarus North April 13, 2017 8:30 AM  

Machen's own book on this (Christianity and Liberalism) is quite interesting as well, (and also shorter). He basically calls out the liberals for their dishonesty and says they should show some integrity and leave the denomination. Of course this didn't happen but it's a good book nonetheless.

Blogger Student in Blue April 13, 2017 8:31 AM  

High standards people tend to lose out vs. low standards people. Key: conflict between orthodoxy and church growth mindset, stay pure but small or grow large but compromise on beliefs.

There's not really a good answer to this, other than "if you have high standards, fight for them".

Also, seems like a generally good summary of what happened.

Anonymous VFM #6306 April 13, 2017 8:34 AM  

Those points don't conflict, Jim Carroll. They make the OP's point. Even Machen failed to adhere to Westminster.

Blogger Nate April 13, 2017 8:37 AM  

It is exactly the same as the fight the UMC has had for the last 4 decades. Though the UMC has faired better than the Presbys did largely because the UMC is an international body so the liberal americans pushing their pro-gay agenda are shut down consistently by the africans and asians.

So many of these things are exactly the same though. The UMC has whole conferences out west that have been completely taken over. And the UMC tried to defend itself by forcing new ministers to take an oath that they were not practicing homosexuals. But again... liars lie. Oaths mean nothing to the heretics. If you ignore what the Bible says about homosexuality why would you care what it says about liars?

That said... all of this is coming to head. Its the conservative side that has finally gotten sick of the fight. Schism is coming and right soon.

Actually.. more like a purge.

Anonymous VFM #6306 April 13, 2017 8:37 AM  

He basically calls out the liberals for their dishonesty and says they should show some integrity and leave the denomination.

So asking evil nicely to be good has always been a losing strategy.

Never encourage when you should scourge.

Blogger Lazarus April 13, 2017 8:41 AM  

The steps are well documented, but what was the prime motivation of the liberals? What is the subconscious driving force behind all this effort and activity?

Blogger Durandel Almiras April 13, 2017 8:47 AM  

@14 Hatred of God, his Son, his Church, and the people who's former love of those things rose to greatness because of their faith.

Blogger Koanic April 13, 2017 8:48 AM  

> What is the subconscious driving force behind all this effort and activity?

The whole soul of the r is dedicated to bending the environment to fit his reproductive strategy. All the emotions play their part. The driving force is the heartbeat.

Blogger Cecil Henry April 13, 2017 8:49 AM  


Canadian Christians have been voting to transfer wealth and power to a big secular government

Indeed, my church has completely abandoned Christianity for a veneer of virtue signalling and humanistic self aggrandizement.

And its ugly underneath the smiles.


The Church’s function is not to adapt Christianity to the world, nor even to adapt the world to Christianity; her function is to maintain a counterworld in the world.

Blogger GAHCindy April 13, 2017 8:50 AM  

Chris Mallory wrote:Clerk of session Paul Ambler, whose wife is the pastor, said that the congregation supports civil rights but does not wish to bring secular practices into a church context."

His wife is the pastor. He opposes secularism in the church. Perfect.

Our local paper had an Easter column by a local female "pastor". It was what you'd expect. Very assiduously avoided talking about the cross, but went long on making sure not to call God male pronouns or invoke judgement on the unrepentant. It's impossible to call others to repentance when you won't do so yourself.

Blogger Nate April 13, 2017 8:51 AM  

"The steps are well documented, but what was the prime motivation of the liberals? What is the subconscious driving force behind all this effort and activity?"

They are True Believers. They have their Cause they will work their whole lives for that Cause. They see these giant institutions are tools to use to advance the Cause. They are incapable of creating their own institutions so they instead, attempt to take over existing ones.

Its fools strategy because every single time... they just end up killing the institution. They fight so hard to control the body... but when they finally achieve their goal... the body is a corpse.

Blogger Samuel Nock April 13, 2017 8:55 AM  

"Far superior skills at bureaucratic maneuvering"

I forget who it was that described Hillary Clinton as "the person who never wants the meeting to end."

Blogger J A Baker April 13, 2017 8:55 AM  

These are the fundamentals of the Christian Faith:

*The unity of God in three persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

*The direct creation of man by God.

*The inspiration and preservation of God’s word in the Bible.

*The virgin birth, sinlessness and deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

*The total depravity and lost state of all men through the Fall of Adam.

*The substitution atonement of Jesus Christ on the cross for the sins of the world.

*The physical bodily resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

*The ascension of Christ to the right hand of the Father.

*Salvation by Grace through faith alone in Christ alone.

*The physical return of Christ in glory and power to earth.

*A literal Heaven and eternal state of joy for believers in the New Heaven and New Earth.

*A day of final judgment and a literal Hell for all who reject Christ in conscious torment in the Lake of Fire.

Compromise on any of these tenants and your church is no longer a Christian.

OpenID anonymos-coward April 13, 2017 8:55 AM  

Calvin and Knox were themselves fully converged SJW's of their time with the full array of SJW dysfunction.

If you want to fix this then you need to go all the way back.

Blogger Nate April 13, 2017 8:59 AM  

"If you want to fix this then you need to go all the way back."

Lets not go there. We don't need another pissing match.

Anonymous VFM #6306 April 13, 2017 9:09 AM  

1100 pages? All I can say is, thanks for the summary OP!

Blogger Phelps April 13, 2017 9:10 AM  

FWIW, the remnants are the PCA, separate from the PCUSA. At the last presbytery, there was a bunch of entryism attempted, and there has been a pretty vocal backlash against it.

Either the entryism will be slapped down at the next presbytery by the committee reporting that the epistles are clear that women are not to lead the church, or my little local church will be leaving PCA.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2016/june/pca-goes-back-to-where-it-started-womens-ordination.html

Blogger dc.sunsets April 13, 2017 9:13 AM  

More reinforcement for me that every part of this larger conflict is best explained by rising social mood during a period of rapidly-rising living standards.

Utopianism and inclusiveness go hand-in-hand.

To me, there are two conditions for massive movements (e.g. Leftism writ large): A high degree trend of social mood and physical conditions that feed back into it.

Social mood for the US/UK last bottomed at Grand Supercycle Degree in the mid-1780's (according to Prechter's work.) Since then, rising social mood was then fueled by the Industrial Revolution, the harnessing of steam, then electricity, then the atom. Western Man witnessed more change in those couple centuries than practically all the centuries in prior history combined. [No wonder we extrapolate that to see ourselves sailing to the stars.]

Under the theory, social mood doesn't respond to outside events, but rising social mood makes people more inventive. On the social side of the coin, this surely fed Utopian movements (which is basic Leftism across the board) and explains why convergence of one institution after another was irresistible. Leftism really was an idea whose time had come, for the entire 19th and 20th centuries. This is why every Western political system is basically a Lefist-cult Theocracy.

That didn't make any of its nostrums right. It was a MASSIVE fad, with skulls piled high. The Roman Catholics called it a heresy (until they, too, were absorbed into the Borg) and, like Kosher's avoidance of pig (instituted back when eating pig was actually dangerous), it was a religious tenet based in reason.

If this is correct, then the Alt-Right is simply a sprouted seed reversal of this two-centuries-long fad. A trend so long and large takes decades to change direction. The peak-level Utopianism of the last 50 years was all put on a credit card because the underlying strength to fuel it was no longer there. In doing so, capital misallocation for the duration of a man's working life insures a vicious reversal and deep plunge during the post-boom retrenchment.

Every converged organization is performing seppuku, a natural condition as suicide is the life-cycle end of such things. Western political systems, the largest (and most bloated) of such organizations, are all doing the same thing. This is parallel to Creveld's observation that the nation-state has reached the end of its lifespan.

Metaphorically, we stand in a city full of skyscrapers. We're conditioned to their presence and we are dependent on them, like it or not, for in many cases there are no alternatives. The people who own, staff and manage those buildings are actively dismantling their foundations in order to build higher, creating a condition where if one tower falls over, a city-sized game of dominoes will occur. We're left to guess where to stand in order to avoid getting crushed when this largest-in-history domino fall begins in earnest. A few towers began to lean in 2007-8, but it was not quite time for them to fall so efforts to prop them up were effective.

One day, sooner or later, it will be time for the game to start, and efforts to prop the leaning towers will suddenly fail. I don't think a repeat of 2009-now is in the cards, not until the landscape is largely free of skyscrapers.

Blogger ÆtherCzar April 13, 2017 9:18 AM  

Just ordered a copy - thanks for sharing this. I've been researching the Presbyterian Church and its missionary efforts in China during the 1920s and 1930s as background for my next science fiction novel. The North book looks as though it will be very helpful. An even shorter and more humorous (if less reverent) exposition of Presbyterian history has been offered by Joe Bob Briggs: http://takimag.com/article/a_brief_history_of_the_redneck_joe_bob_briggs.

Blogger dc.sunsets April 13, 2017 9:18 AM  

@19 Nate
Its fools strategy because every single time... they just end up killing the institution. They fight so hard to control the body... but when they finally achieve their goal... the body is a corpse.

A remarkably apt description of what happens when blacks, browns or any other non-white group obtains local political power in the USA. Everyone likes the golden eggs, but they are driven to murder the geese that lay them. I never cease to be amazed at how many immigrants and minorities don't realize that what they like about North America won't last 5 minutes if they're successful in displacing the children of those who built its high living standards.

Blogger Koanic April 13, 2017 9:19 AM  

> They fight so hard to control the body... but when they finally achieve their goal... the body is a corpse.

That doesn't matter. r is boom bust. As long as nobody stores food or fights predators, r goes right on winning.

That is why white Christian straight patriarchs are the only real enemy. Because they're the only real K's.

Blogger VFM #4388 April 13, 2017 9:23 AM  

In January of 1974, the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod suspended the president of their St. Louis seminary as part of an investigation that showed the majority of the faculty did not follow the seminary's constitution, nor agree with the Lutheran confessions.

The next day, 45 of the 50 faculty members and 274 of the 381 students walked out in protest and started holding separate classes where they flew their leftist flags freely and defiantly.

So the LCMS fired the dissenting faculty and flunked the dissenting students.

The St. Louis Seminary is still functioning. The expelled lefty seminary, on the other hand, had to be absorbed into several pre-existing converged churches.

Good times.

Blogger Cail Corishev April 13, 2017 9:24 AM  

They fight so hard to control the body... but when they finally achieve their goal... the body is a corpse.

Then they blame the body for failing to live up to their purpose, and go looking for another body to infect, never realizing (or caring) that making corpses is their purpose.

Anonymous AC April 13, 2017 9:25 AM  

>>Presbyterian takeover pre-dated Gramsci and could not have been inspired by him

It also pre-dated the arrival of our (((Russian Khazar))) immigrants.

Anonymous AC April 13, 2017 9:29 AM  

>>Calvin and Knox were themselves fully converged SJW's of their time with the full array of SJW dysfunction.

oh yes... Muh (((Moldbug)))

The Pope of current year is a secret puritan.

OpenID paworldandtimes April 13, 2017 9:34 AM  

-- liberal causes like eugenics were memory holed.

Liberals' polarity flip from eugenics to active disgenics was one of the stranger developments in the 20th century.

PA

Blogger Valtandor Nought April 13, 2017 9:38 AM  

Truth is more important than tact, and principles are more essential than procedures.

A church - or indeed any organisation or group - that does not recognise this will surely perish.

And for those who say unity and peace should be paramount, I would remind them that Jesus himself said he came to bring not peace, but division.

Anonymous dissidentright April 13, 2017 9:40 AM  

The coming wave of intolerance for SJWs has fairly obvious implications for converged church institutions. I expect we will see many Victoria scenarios.

Anonymous Clay April 13, 2017 9:41 AM  

Wow. I can't see where the Catholics haven't been staked and burned yet.

I'm gonna eat me some fish tomorrow.

Blogger Jew613 April 13, 2017 9:42 AM  

In Days Of Rage there is a short section on how Puerto Rican nationalists were able to take over a regional branch of the Episcopal church and use it to further their goals.

Anonymous dissidentright April 13, 2017 9:43 AM  

@30

Yes, we are very proud of that. And even though convergence continued in other areas, and continues even now, we have actually made some bureaucratic headway with Harrison.

Anonymous digger April 13, 2017 9:44 AM  

Convergence often occurs through the church associated University. It's a beaurocratic petridish they flourish in. It works because the then leaven the next generation of pastors.
Don't underestimate it's power. Whole fellowshis of non-denominational churches have been effectively controlled behind the scenes via a church associated college.

There is a good reason why father's were to teach their children and church workers taught by apostles and the Holy Spirit.

Central education will in the end prove our societies undoing

OpenID paworldandtimes April 13, 2017 9:45 AM  

Late 20th century liberals ran into a problem. Unlike their predecessors, they faced a shortage of enforcement muscle. Gamma male leaders of the French Revolution had plenty of competent men on hand to eradicate entire small town neighborhoods.

There is only so much blood they can get out of ATF. Certainly no gratuitous grisly up-close-and-personal slaughter of household after household.

"Can we get some muscle over here?!" -- the liberal's battle cry.

The weaponized blacks and imported browns are not working out as hoped. Too undisciplined, too venal.

PA

Blogger J A Baker April 13, 2017 9:47 AM  

From my experience, anytime a church body amasses any substantial amount of property and wealth they become a target for convergence, also anytime a church branches out into the community and establishes social programs, those programs serve as entry points for the SJWs, especially when they come to depend on government grants.

I remember a church in my area was swindled by their former predator pastor. It took them three years to discover that he had embezzled over two million dollars. When your church is sitting on so much cash that it takes three years to discover a few million dollars are missing, well there's something not right about that.

Blogger FALPhil April 13, 2017 9:47 AM  

A decent book about one of the spinoffs of the Presbyterian Church is Sean Lucas' For a Continuing Church: The Roots of the Presbyterian Church in America. It covers a lot of the detailed history of the Northern and Southern churches between WWI and the founding of the PCA. The PCA was explicitly founded to counter the convergence in the Presbyterian church.

But, Presbyterians are a fractious lot. If you look at the history of Presbyterians since the 1600s and plot it out, the plot looks like a massive fishbone diagram.

Blogger dc.sunsets April 13, 2017 9:47 AM  

@26 Point? If the 19th and 20th centuries were Hard Left in a time of phenomenally rising living standards built on a huge rise in social mood (capped by a mania for the ages), what happens when theory dictates a natural "bear market" in social mood of at least Grand Supercycle degree?

At least:
-A century or more of no net increase in social mood, interspersed with multiple hard declines, each of which should be as large or larger than 1930-32, i.e., a century of one Great Depression after another.
-Collapse of every sclerotic, converged organization, from the Nation-State to every organized church.
-Relative hardship not seen since the 18th century, possibly the 14th century.
-Eventually, the kind of political upheaval characterized by the French Revolution and the War to Prevent Southern Secession, rolled into one, only in the opposite direction.
-The step-by-step repudiation of Everything Leftist. Utopianism will eventually be seen by virtually EVERYONE as the province of utter lunatics.
-"We're going to the Stars" will be replaced with, "I hope we're alive next year," even if actual famine/war/etc. don't get as bad as that; it will be a pervasive feeling of dread, regardless of how bad conditions actually get.

IOW, totally uncharted waters, with one downside surprise after another once it begins in earnest. Leftist organizations like the Presbyterian Church won't be subject to invasion and conversion by the Right. Such organizations are already teetering zombies. They will fall.

I suspect that leftism is like rising prices in stocks. Stocks (and social mood) spend more duration rising than falling. Humanity thus spends more time in euphoria than dread. It seems weird to posit that the folly of Utopianism is naturally more pervasive than attachment to reason, but that's the "Mankind" this theory posits.

Blogger JaimeInTexas April 13, 2017 9:53 AM  

I like Gary North but he definitely dos not subscribe to brevity being the soul of wit.

Anonymous Broken Arrow April 13, 2017 9:57 AM  

Long game perspective (the takeover took 60 years: 1875-1936)

The war never ends, only battles. The LCMS had Seminex, the SBC fought off the liberals about 30 years ago. They weren't winning the war, they only won a battle. Either denomination would be foolish to think this did anything other than give them time to prepare for the next assault.

Until Jesus returns the liberals will always, always want to take over the church.

OpenID anonymos-coward April 13, 2017 10:08 AM  

Nate wrote:
Lets not go there. We don't need another pissing match.


Cuckish refusal to face the hard truths in the name of being nice is what got us into this mess in the first place.

Blogger Dexter April 13, 2017 10:10 AM  

What is the subconscious driving force behind all this effort and activity?

Satan.

Blogger Gaiseric April 13, 2017 10:11 AM  

anonymos-coward wrote:Calvin and Knox were themselves fully converged SJW's of their time with the full array of SJW dysfunction.

If you want to fix this then you need to go all the way back.

That's not all the way back. Clement's power grab over the Asian churches and the immediate state of the Church 2000 years ago shows all of the same signs of SJW dysfunction.

Blogger Gapeseed April 13, 2017 10:11 AM  

OT, but yet it feels strangely related -

Bus explodes near Grand Central station in NYC this morning. Nobody hurt. Nothing to see here, folks! Move along!

http://nypost.com/2017/04/13/bus-explodes-near-grand-central/

Blogger DonReynolds April 13, 2017 10:12 AM  

My mother's side of the family were Presbyterians. In fact, my grandfather was a Presbyterian preacher at the Shiloh church, where his own direct ancestors had been founders in 1793. When my grandfather died and buried next to his mother in the churchyard, the church was sealed up. Today it is maintained on the National Register of Historic Places near Bethpage, Tennessee.

During my early life, the Presbyterian church had been unusually conservative, maybe even reactionary at times. But it was the first church to openly embrace homosexuality in 1970. Apparently, the aging leadership was suddenly displaced by very young activists, who moved the church as far in the opposite direction. Aside from teaching at a Presbyterian college later (which was a small disaster), I could no longer abide the Leftist changes and had nothing more to do with them.

Blogger ZhukovG April 13, 2017 10:15 AM  

There is no need for an internecine argument. There is nothing in the 'Fundamentals of the Christian Faith', that J A Baker so helpfully posted, that a Roman Catholic, like myself, should disagree with.

Anonymous roo_ster April 13, 2017 10:16 AM  

VFM #4388 wrote:
"In January of 1974, the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod suspended the president of their St. Louis seminary as part of an investigation that showed the majority of the faculty did not follow the seminary's constitution, nor agree with the Lutheran confessions."

Confessional documents have real utility, but can not by themselves defend the church from the forces of evil and entryism.

The faithful must still:
1. Believe in them, soup to nuts, and not undermine them for contemporary ease.
2. Have the balls to slap down the heterodox like a red-headed step-child.

The analogy is that confessional documents provide a rampart or bulwark that makes defense of orthodoxy easier, but if left unmanned are but a minor hindrance to the liberal savages.




Blogger JaimeInTexas April 13, 2017 10:17 AM  

Unrelated.

Police Call Qurans Found in Toilet at UTD 'Shocking and Unusual'
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Police-Call-Qurans-Found-in-Toilet-at-UTD-Shocking-and-Unusual-419322194.html


Muslim created false flag or low level conflict protest?

Blogger DonReynolds April 13, 2017 10:17 AM  

Somebody could write a very similar book on the transformation of the Southern Baptist church from rather conservative (Billy Graham) to Liberalism-As-A-Religious-Duty (Mike Huckabee).

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer April 13, 2017 10:20 AM  

And for those who say unity and peace should be paramount, I would remind them that Jesus himself said he came to bring not peace, but division.

Whenever anyone asks, "what would Jesus do" remind them that flipping over tables and chasing people with a whip is one of the possibilities.

Blogger Desiderius April 13, 2017 10:21 AM  

"They thrive on the naivete and weakness of good people."

There are no good people in orthodox reformed doctrine.

They thrive on the vanity of those who consider themselves good.

Blogger ZhukovG April 13, 2017 10:22 AM  

@DonReynolds: The SBC seems to have suffered from NeoCon convergence to include an idolatrous devotion to the State of Israel. This robbed them of their once laudable missionary and evangelical zeal.

Fortunately there are a growing number of fine SBC Christians who are fighting this.

Blogger Desiderius April 13, 2017 10:25 AM  

"Just ordered a copy - thanks for sharing this. I've been researching the Presbyterian Church and its missionary efforts in China during the 1920s and 1930s as background for my next science fiction novel."

Get to know this man (and his parents), one of the best to walk the earth:

https://www.pcusa.org/news/2015/2/10/great-man-died-today/

There are now four times as many Presbyterians in Korea as there are in the US.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 13, 2017 10:26 AM  

It's always "just this one compromise" and it's never the liberals who are the compromisers.

@9
Machen then went on to found the Orthodox Presbyterian Church which continues to this day.

@25
Women as deacons, then ruling elders, then teaching elders is the path that the Northern Presbyterians took in the 20th century. Liberals are pushing for the same thing now in the Presbyterian Church in America. If it is allowed it will kill the PCA as surely as it is killing the PC-USA.

Anonymous Ezekiel Cassandros April 13, 2017 10:31 AM  

I'm from the PCA tradition, the descendants of the remnant. Some of the pastors at my home church doubled down pretty hard on creationism. I expect that is a defensive cringing away from the fact that non-compliance with the (human) tradition of Westminster was exploited against them, so they react by stricter compliance with it.

I don't think it will work, since it just gives them another angle from which to attack. "You're out of touch with reality! Science has proven the earth is older than 6000 years," and when people grudgingly agree, "Well you just admitted science can proven your tradition wrong, so here's everything else you're also wrong about..."

Blogger Michael April 13, 2017 10:34 AM  

My wife and I are cradle Presbyterians. We were married in a Presbyterian church. When we were in our 20's (back in the 70's) they started arguing about the Deity of Jesus at the national conference. I told my wife this is "F'ed" and we walked away. Since then, they have ordained women pastors, supported abortion, and a wide variety of left leaning politics. In my case, thank God, the older men taught me the faith when I was young and to read the bible. Right now, I am looking at my book case... in front of me is a well used bible given to me at my baptism by someone. Over time, the only presbyterians in my family are my mother...and she is in her 80's. I can count well over 100 family members (this includes cousins) whom walked away -- to save their souls. The church used to represent about 3% of the US population and was influential in politics. Now, it is a former shadow of itself and will be dead,as a denomination, within about 30 years (I think). My ancestors, who were kicked out of Europe for being Calvinist would turn over in their graves if they knew what happened to the worship of God. Thank God I made it out! And may God have mercy on the lost sheep.

Anonymous fop April 13, 2017 10:47 AM  

The Podesta emails have some good insight into his involvement in converging the RCC. It's actually very blatant and sober the way they do it. It's a much more conscious effort than I previously imagined.

Also, is there a better word than "converged"? Everytime I bring it up in conversation the inevitable question follows: "What do you mean by "converged"?"

Blogger Jon D. April 13, 2017 10:49 AM  

Wow this is a book I might check out for my own edification. Though the summary is great. I currently attend Presbyterian Church after my last church got extremely converged. Was the topic of: https://voxday.blogspot.com/2016/09/mailvox-when-your-church-converges.html before I was comfortable speaking in public.

Church convergence is the most dangerous of all, because there's souls at stake because of it. I'm going to forward this on to my Church leaders.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 13, 2017 10:51 AM  

OT but not OT

Churches have been turning a profit importing "refugees" for years. This needs to stop.

5,000 Somalis expected to be deported Converged churches have turned a profit on importing refugees for years. There's no logical reason for thousands of Africans living in Lewiston, Maine.

They have to go back.

Anonymous Grayman April 13, 2017 10:52 AM  

Vox,

Do you know of anyone "chronicling" the inception of, development and process of the immigrant invasion of the west?
it is clearly well coordinated and well funded and I'm sure there is much more than meets the eye going on behind the scenes.
I'm no expert but would figure that this process goes back to atleast the 1930's in terms of planning and execution beginning post WWII.

Blogger Koanic April 13, 2017 10:56 AM  

> remind them that flipping over tables and chasing people with a whip is one of the possibilities.

I prefer to contemplate the global genocide one, personally.

Anonymous Carlos Danger April 13, 2017 10:57 AM  

Grayman:

I recommend Culture of Critique by Kevin MacDonald. It really started in 1965. He goes into great detail.

Blogger dienw April 13, 2017 10:57 AM  

Gaiseric wrote:anonymos-coward wrote:Calvin and Knox were themselves fully converged SJW's of their time with the full array of SJW dysfunction.

If you want to fix this then you need to go all the way back.


That's not all the way back. Clement's power grab over the Asian churches and the immediate state of the Church 2000 years ago shows all of the same signs of SJW dysfunction.


Back further: Constantine was the first SJW.

Blogger DonReynolds April 13, 2017 10:59 AM  

@62 Michael
I know exactly how you feel. I did not follow the Presbyterian church when it changed, but it certainly walked away from me and my family.
There was a time when the purpose of the church was to save human souls and somewhere along the way, the church lost sight of that in favor of politics. The SJW Liberals brought politics into the church and straight away it was either "my way or the highway".
If my grandfather were alive today, I believe they would have to kill him. He would not sleep, or eat, or drink water....until the last of them were scrubbed out of the community. He was a man who did not tolerate sin and he was not bashful or polite when confronted by Satan.

Blogger Lazarus April 13, 2017 11:01 AM  

JaimeInTexas wrote:Muslim created false flag or low level conflict protest?

Most likely a hoax by an SJW. I don't think muslims are allowed to do that. They can lie, cheat, and steal and kill in the name of Allah, but I don't think they can dis the book for political gain.

If it is a low level protest, I hope they did a big dump on top of it as well.

Blogger frigger611 April 13, 2017 11:07 AM  

"High standards people tend to lose out vs. low standards people."

YEs, this is key to just about every lost cultural battle.

As the readers here know quite well, "conservatism" hasn't conserved a thing in the last 100 years, precisely due to the refusal to meet the enemy on EQUAL TERMS on the battlefield - if he is fighting dirty, you have to fight back dirty. But instead we have conservatives preferring to lose while maintaining that they "preserved dignity."

And every time somebody on our side nutted up and actually engaged the fight properly, his fellows in the crab bucket were quick to silence and punish him, (instead of seeing him as a worthy casualty who deserves that cushy job).

The right suffers attrition, the left does not.

Blogger Nate April 13, 2017 11:09 AM  

"Cuckish refusal to face the hard truths in the name of being nice is what got us into this mess in the first place."



We've pounded the catholic vs reformed topic into the ground 1000 times. There is no fear of anything. The point is there no reason to destroy yet another useful thread with the same tired BS.

I loathe Calvin. I loathe Calvinists. I am not in the least bit concerned with having to say something bad about him or them. In fact I enjoy the hell out of it. But this isn't the place for it.

Blogger Nate April 13, 2017 11:10 AM  

Calling John Calvin and SJW isn't facing a hard truth. Its a favorite passtime.

Anonymous J. J. April 13, 2017 11:10 AM  

The St. Louis Seminary is still functioning. The expelled lefty seminary, on the other hand, had to be absorbed into several pre-existing converged churches.
Great story. I have a strong respect for both the LCMS and PCA, having grown up in a more lib-uh-ral form of Lutheranism (ELCA). They are cautionary tales, though. The barbarians are always at the gates... not to mention within the gates. 25 years ago I switched to a "conservative evangelical bible-believing" church, because, well, the people there actually held the Bible in high esteem. I thought there was no way these "evangelical" churches would go liberal... liberals simply wouldn't waste their time in a church where the gospel and evangelism were central. A quarter century later, how wrong I was! "Evangelical" churches are converged everywhere. It's more subtle than the blatant liberalism that led to travesties such as the ELCA though. Nowadays evangelical churches are converged by touchy-feely preaching that has little to do with the Bible and more about the pastor being your therapist... but get this generation off of the Bible, and the next generation will sure enough be doing gay weddings. Satan is patient.

Blogger praetorian April 13, 2017 11:12 AM  

Presbyterian takeover pre-dated Gramsci and could not have been inspired by him

A narrative that unifies this is that the puritan strains of protestantism were particularly prone to judaizing flaws structurally (manichaeism, personal interpretation, liberation from tradition, etc.) and that Gramsci and friends came in to finish the job.

The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit by E. Michael Jones lays this narrative out. I'm sympathetic to it.

Blogger bob kek mando ( i'd like to be John Scalzi, sir Procrustes. can you de-nut me? or, you know, you could just cut me off at the waist and then i'd also be a half-man, just like my an hero ) April 13, 2017 11:16 AM  

56. Ron Winkleheimer April 13, 2017 10:20 AM
I would remind them that Jesus himself said he came to bring not peace, but division.



ah yes, the perfect rebuttal to Shia.

LeButtfucker says, "He will not divide us!"

Jesus Christ said, "I will divide you."

now, which is the message of Satan?

Blogger JDC April 13, 2017 11:21 AM  

The next day, 45 of the 50 faculty members and 274 of the 381 students walked out in protest and started holding separate classes where they flew their leftist flags freely and defiantly.

Seminex...good times. The LCMS suspended the liberal president causing 45 out of the 50 faculty as well as a large number of students to walk out. The liberals bluffed, and the church called em on it. Don't let the door hit you in the arse was the basic sentiment.

Most of those faculty and students eventually joined the ELCA...the denomination I left as a pastor in 2010 to join the LCMS because of liberal shenanigans.

The level of deception in the ELCA is a story that is not told publicly often, I told it, and was ostracized by the majority of my fellow pastors.

The ELCA, in 2009, decided to vote on two major issues. A) To ordain homosexual pastors (who were living in life-long committed relationships) and, B) to permit (but not require) congregations to perform same sex blessings.

Up until this point the standard at CWA's (Church wide assemblies) was a 2/3 majority on major changes to church policy. About six months before the August 2009 vote, the ELCA executive council decided that for these two issues, only a simple majority was needed.

The CWA began with a furious debate on how this was inappropriate (remembering that actions at the CWA are binding on all congregations, individual congregation don't get to vote on CWA memorials). Well, just as I guessed, the two resolutions passed with 52% and 54% of the voting members.

I had already made my decision to leave the ELCA to colloquy to the LCMS, but I attended a pastor's conference in October of that year headed by the then presiding bishop Mark Hanson. When he was asked about overturning these resolutions he responded, "To overturn them would need a 2/3 vote, and not a simple majority. I can see how some could see this as manipulative." I raised my hand and asked how could we see it any other way?

So...they changed the rules before the assembly to get their resolutions passed, and then declared that it would take a 2/3 to overturn them.

The ELCA has suffered greatly because of this. The last estimates I read were over 1,000 congregations leaving as well as between 5-20% of the church members leaving (depending on the source).

The funny thing...the loudest liberal voices that were pushing for these changes (because tolerance and love) are now, nowhere to be seen. I'm guessing they are now barraging the UMC which is the only large mainline denomination they haven't conquered yet.

Blogger praetorian April 13, 2017 11:22 AM  

The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit by E. Michael Jones lays this narrative out. I'm sympathetic to it.

And I should stress here, the analysis is of a particular strain of thought and action (the revolutionary) in judaism (and its interactions and effects on both protestant and catholic Christendom) not a wholesale condemnation all of judaism.

E Michael Jones has focused in on Logos since writing the book, which I think clarifies a positive potential direction to move with jewish/christian (and islamic/christian) relations.

Anyway.

Blogger Servant of the Chief April 13, 2017 11:29 AM  

This sounds remarkably similar to how the liberal heretics and progressives have taken over the institutional Catholic Church in the West over the past 100 years. It still isn't complete, but then again, the Catholic Church was much larger. Difference being it was recognised earlier, hence the Oath against Modernism priests used to take. Out the window since the sixties. The story of the Anglicans/Episcopalians I imagine is much the same, when they reneged on contraception in the early 20th century, it was all downhill from there.

OpenID anonymos-coward April 13, 2017 11:30 AM  

ZhukovG wrote:There is no need for an internecine argument. There is nothing in the 'Fundamentals of the Christian Faith', that J A Baker so helpfully posted, that a Roman Catholic, like myself, should disagree with.

Look again. They removed all trace of the sacrament of confession and they deny the reality of man's free will. This is the foot in the door that liberals and satanists use to twist the Church into their 'arc of history'.

Nate wrote:We've pounded the catholic vs reformed topic into the ground 1000 times.

This isn't about Catholic vs Reformed. This is about the fact that nothing good can come from compromise with heresy.

Anonymous Clay April 13, 2017 11:32 AM  

Aw, come on, guys.

If you're Christian....so what?

Quit bickering about "religion".

Anonymous instasetting April 13, 2017 11:33 AM  

#61 The proper response is 'BS. Science does NOT disagree. You need to get educated, instead of relying on the ignorant brainwashing that's been force fed to you since you were a toddler." How many little children's books about dinosaurs begin with 'millions and millions of years ago'?

I could talk to you for several hours explaining many, many reasons why YEC is correct. Or I could refer you to my comedic novel on the subject.

I'm dismayed at how many supposedly smart people buy into the anti-scientific nonsense of Darwinism.

If your pastors are cringing, they need to get educated.

======================
I would say ease offers the chance of greatness but you can choose laziness instead. We chose greatness. Choose to cling to God.

There is no fate. What there is is a test with multiple choice answers. Each time and place is its own differing question, but you have the freedom to choose the answer.

We can still go to the stars, but it might be more like the Dorsai universe than the Star Trek universe.

Anonymous roo_ster April 13, 2017 11:35 AM  

Carlos Danger wrote:
"I recommend Culture of Critique by Kevin MacDonald. It really started in 1965. He goes into great detail."

Reading CoC was like cutting/ripping a gangrenous scab off a wound: necessary for long-term health & recovery, but so very painful at the time.


Anonymous Clay April 13, 2017 11:40 AM  

BTW, Nate.

Yeah, you tried. But, it always does seem to evolve into a pissing match.

Blogger Gaiseric April 13, 2017 11:44 AM  

Nate wrote:We've pounded the catholic vs reformed topic into the ground 1000 times. There is no fear of anything. The point is there no reason to destroy yet another useful thread with the same tired BS.

I loathe Calvin. I loathe Calvinists. I am not in the least bit concerned with having to say something bad about him or them. In fact I enjoy the hell out of it. But this isn't the place for it.

It's also another great example of purity spiraling and shooting your helpful allies instead of your enemies.

Here's the tell; if your purpose is to try and chastise what you see as the woes of Protestantism, then do it on the blog of a Catholic alt-right, and do it with an audience that's primarily Catholic. America was founded as a Protestant nation. Germany, France, Poland, etc. You've got lots of places to hang out and have that particular Catholic vs Protestant beatdown where it actually makes sense to do so. If you take it somewhere where it doesn't, then you're just sperging.

Anonymous fop April 13, 2017 12:07 PM  

At 100 comments this post turns into a flame war about barbecue sauce.

Blogger Servant April 13, 2017 12:10 PM  

Uh how do i get these three docs? my interest level is maximal.

I actually started reading the thing. Writer is very clever and preens a bit, but solid stuff.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 13, 2017 12:14 PM  

@87
Does Glock make barbecue sauce yet? Asking for a friend.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 13, 2017 12:18 PM  

@88 Servant
Uh how do i get these three docs? my interest level is maximal.


Which three docs? The book by Gary North is probably still out on Amazon. Machen's book on Christianity and Liberalism is still in print.

Gary North worked with with R.J. Rushdoony if that makes any difference to you, and was also big time doomer about Y2K. He got over it.

Blogger Servant April 13, 2017 12:18 PM  

J A Baker wrote:These are the fundamentals of the Christian Faith:

*The unity of God in three persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

*The direct creation of man by God.

*The inspiration and preservation of God’s word in the Bible.

*The virgin birth, sinlessness and deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

*The total depravity and lost state of all men through the Fall of Adam.

*The substitution atonement of Jesus Christ on the cross for the sins of the world.

*The physical bodily resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

*The ascension of Christ to the right hand of the Father.

*Salvation by Grace through faith alone in Christ alone.

*The physical return of Christ in glory and power to earth.

*A literal Heaven and eternal state of joy for believers in the New Heaven and New Earth.

*A day of final judgment and a literal Hell for all who reject Christ in conscious torment in the Lake of Fire.

Compromise on any of these tenants and your church is no longer a Christian.


Forget our own physical resurrection.

Anonymous HoosierHillbilly April 13, 2017 12:23 PM  

The North book, though terribly long and ponderous, was definitely an informative read when I last dusted it off. As many here agree with, knowledge of history is critical to understand how we got to the point we are at now.

But, this leads us to the present. I have toured around a good amount in the Indiana, northeast Illinois, southwestern Michigan area going to churches. The old faithful have fled into groups of United Reformed and Orthodox Presbyterian churches, with a smattering of Christian Reformed and Presbyterian Church in America holdouts depending upon the conservatism in the local region.

So...as to the question at hand. What is the path forward from here? We have fled and fled and fled for years into our enclaves. The schism has already happened, we are dug into our redoubts. But, how do we flip the script and no longer be the refugees? As many of other denominations have already noted, what do you do with an organization that has your name, but not your principals. When the PCUSA comes out with "oh, we love women pastors and the homos!" What is the path to making the people around you stop thinking you are the same as that organization?

This isn't just a Reformed problem. All denominations face it today, just as American culture does. We are tired of running. We are out of places to run. What is the goal of the earthly fight? Not afraid to fight, but where are we driving to?

Anonymous Grayman April 13, 2017 12:25 PM  

A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents wrote:@87

Does Glock make barbecue sauce yet? Asking for a friend.


You cuck, Glocks sauce will never be as good as a real sauce like SIG!

Anonymous europeasant April 13, 2017 12:29 PM  

Just finished reading "The Jesuits" the society of Jesus and the betrayal of the Roman Catholic Church by Malachi Martin.

Yes modernism and liberalism have taken over certain orders in the Catholic Church just like in the newer Christian offshoots.
Before I read the book I did not realize how wide far was the Jesuit influence. And now they are basically SJW's.

Blogger Beau April 13, 2017 12:30 PM  

Yeah, you tried. But, it always does seem to evolve into a pissing match.

It is because of the hardness of our hearts that we do this. Is there a lack of grace in heaven? a shortness of mercy? a dearth of power? No, but rather than address our own spiritual neglect, sinfulness and backsliding, its far more gratifying to our flesh attack each other in Christ. If we spent as much time in repentance as we do on the attack, if we spent as much time interceding for each other as we condemn, then the body would be far healthier and fit to fight the fight of faith.

Blogger Servant April 13, 2017 12:34 PM  

A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents wrote:@88 Servant

Uh how do i get these three docs? my interest level is maximal.



Which three docs? The book by Gary North is probably still out on Amazon. Machen's book on Christianity and Liberalism is still in print.

Gary North worked with with R.J. Rushdoony if that makes any difference to you, and was also big time doomer about Y2K. He got over it.


Don't know who RJ Rushdoony is except quick google search revealed he was a racist and a bigot so probably ok.

The three docs Vox said he was attaching. It's nice to see my belief that the PCA's posture of "Sola Scriptura plus also the WCF" is foolish validated here. Holding to a constitution that these blatherers haven't even read, not to mention it being subject to attack as not the work of God, but man.

I mislike the authors "most intellectually formiddable" or whatever nonsense. It's what kills the presbyterian church. This slavish devotion to breaking down the words of God has distracted and misled people for generations.

God himself likens the relationship to that of two lovers. How uncomfortable would it make you to have someone who professed to love you slice and dice all your words, to constantly badger you about your meaning?

Trust faith acceptance obedience are not intellectual concepts.

Anonymous Raptor disrespect from behind April 13, 2017 12:36 PM  

All of this stuff reminds me of my own church, the Episcopal Church.

The Bishop who baptized me, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shelby_Spong rejects much of the stuff that is taught during catechism classes. I rarely attend church anymore, because the focus of the Episcopal churches around me is not on Jesus, but doing good works in his name that are largely SJW causes.

For the most part the Episcopal church is lost. For historical reasons I have no desire to join the catholic church (the episocpal church is a schism of the catholic church).

Blogger praetorian April 13, 2017 12:38 PM  

When beau and solzhenitsyn make the same point, perhaps it is time to pause and reflect.

Anonymous Grayman April 13, 2017 12:41 PM  

HoosierHillbilly wrote:…….

So...as to the question at hand. What is the path forward from here? We have fled and fled and fled for years into our enclaves. The schism has already happened, we are dug into our redoubts. But, how do we flip the script and no longer be the refugees? As many of other denominations have already noted, what do you do with an organization that has your name, but not your principals. When the PCUSA comes out with "oh, we love women pastors and the homos!" What is the path to making the people around you stop thinking you are the same as that organization?

This isn't just a Reformed problem. All denominations face it today, just as American culture does. We are tired of running. We are out of places to run. What is the goal of the earthly fight? Not afraid to fight, but where are we driving to?


My humble 2 cents, speak out. Treat it no different than Mexican invaders. Someone calls them “immigrants, correct them. Everything has its time and people are starting to wake. Look at Molyneux’s latest show on the terror truck in Sweden. The Swedish people are stirring despite the best efforts of their government to silence them. The people of the west are stirring and no longer accepting what they are told. Find like-minded souls and support one another. Change comes slower then we desire and then faster than we are prepared for.

Anonymous HoosierHillbilly April 13, 2017 12:42 PM  

@81

Damn it man. The whole f'in boat is sinking. Once we get Christendom to stop taking on water, then we can go back to happily yelling and beating eachother up about whether Johnsons or Mercs give the best performance.

It's more fun to argue about Methodists being in heaven when there are actual Methodists to talk to! We keep going like we are and we just get stuck with boring, touchy-feely, secular syncretism bullshit.

Blogger Beau April 13, 2017 12:45 PM  

So...as to the question at hand. What is the path forward from here?

Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the Lord, till he come and rain righteousness upon you. Hoshea 10:12

Prepare your heart for a great awakening. Remove all known sin from your life. Remove anything questionable. Obey God. Go public with your experience of how Christ saved you.

Prepare your heart. The eyes of the Lord roam throughout the whole earth to show himself strong on behalf of those whose hearts are completely his.

Prepare your heart. In every household their are vessels of clay, wood, silver and gold. Be refined, be the gold vessel ready for your master's use.

Prepare your heart. Our master told us, "If anyone will come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow me." People in recovery dedicate themselves daily to staying sober, otherwise they won't. How much more the disciples of Jesus dedicate themselves daily to denying themselves and following our Savior?

Great things start in the heart.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer April 13, 2017 12:46 PM  

When the PCUSA comes out with "oh, we love women pastors and the homos!" What is the path to making the people around you stop thinking you are the same as that organization?

This reminded me of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Nx8QqiADyw

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 13, 2017 12:48 PM  

@96 Servant
The three docs Vox said he was attaching. It's nice to see my belief that the PCA's posture of "Sola Scriptura plus also the WCF" is foolish validated here.

Every church has some kind of "here's how we read the Bible" standard. Churches that don't have one explicitly have an implicit version. Even the "Bible ONLY" Baptists have a certain way of reading it, sometimes it's what one preacher says. Writing down the standard can make it easier to stay on track.

Not paying attention to that standard is how churches wind up going Unitarian or SJW or splintering or turning into social clubs. Because sinful, self centered men don't really want to submit to God.

@97
I know Episcopalians who have joined up with churches in North America that are directly under the authority of African bishops, just to get away from the train wreck. Eventually the African Anglicans are either going to take back their church, or split from Canturbury. It's like what Nate mentioned about the Methodists, the Africans are the ballast right now keeping that boat from flopping over.

@95 Beau, that's very irenic. Words to reflect upon.

Anonymous HoosierHillbilly April 13, 2017 12:48 PM  

Thanks Beau, your insights are always appreciated.

Blogger Beau April 13, 2017 12:59 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Beau April 13, 2017 1:00 PM  

This coming week Jason is returning to Sweden to convert and disciple Muslims to Jesus. He was already instrumental in Falköping in winning a young Muslim to Christ. This man invited his "young Muslim gangster thug" friends to his baptism. Four of these converted to Christ. Jason is schooled in ministry of the supernatural. He can do this because he is surrendered to Christ. He will pass on his experience and knowledge of the power of Christ to these formerly Muslim men. I expect them to become great soulwinners.

Blogger Servant April 13, 2017 1:03 PM  

A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents wrote:@96 Servant

The three docs Vox said he was attaching. It's nice to see my belief that the PCA's posture of "Sola Scriptura plus also the WCF" is foolish validated here.

Every church has some kind of "here's how we read the Bible" standard. Churches that don't have one explicitly have an implicit version. Even the "Bible ONLY" Baptists have a certain way of reading it, sometimes it's what one preacher says. Writing down the standard can make it easier to stay on track.



Right. Look. Denominations are man made constructs which are evil. The whole notion of church government seems to be evil. The idea that you can "vote" on whether a baby is a baby, or whether Christ is God, or man can marry man, is abject lunacy. This is why I don't get politics. In Florida we have the Constitution Revision Commission right now and they have to sit there and listen to advocates from planned parenthood talk about how we should still murder babies. The notion you can hash out differences or talk to people or give them a voice when they say such evil shit is utterly confounding.

I wonder sometimes why God has commanded me to be gentle as a dove and wise as a serpent than given me a heart to lay waste with a good thick club, the physical ability to do so, and the mental ability to do so.

Anonymous crushlimbraw April 13, 2017 1:04 PM  

This topic leads directly into my claim that every institution in the country has been lost by Conservatives to the Left over the last 100 years. This book describes the pattern and it's practically identical. Interestingly, this comes up mostly in my arguments on Disqus with Christians and Conservatives. When I finally ask them to name one institution that hasn't - there is no response. Why?
The typical Christian and/or Conservative spouts their agenda - and sends their children to public school. Do this over several generations and you're making disciples for Antonio Gramsci.
When Jesus commanded his disciples to 'make disciples of all nations', I don't think that was the idea.
The fact is that almost all churches are now pabulum dispensers from the pulpits - just 'make nice'!
That fact, along with our culture formed by our education system and media, practically guarantees the results we see.

Anonymous Raptor disrespect from behind April 13, 2017 1:04 PM  

@103

Several Episcopal churches near me did exactly that and got into lawsuits over keeping their buildings after they split off. I looked into those churches and they were a far too modern in style that made my wife and I feel rather uncomfortable. It is harder to find an old smells and bells high church that has split off.

Blogger SemiSpook37 April 13, 2017 1:10 PM  

The ironic thing is, at least among us Catholics, is that there are those remnants that still adhere to Tradition in spite of the whole "Spirit of Vatican II" ethos that still prevails over much of the Latin Rite to this day (many of the Uniate Rites of the East are a little better with regards to convergence, but their problem is the dwindling of both their clerical ranks as well as the souls in their care).

Someone brought an interesting point upthread re: burning at the stake for heresy. See, that's part of the problem. The inmates currently running the asylum have ascribed to literalism in the worst possible of places, which is why you get these nutjobs running around saying that abortion is okay because the fetus is just a clump of cells, but capital execution is cruel and unusual punishment because somehow we can't execute a murderer because he has feelings and it's somehow "cheaper" and more "humane" to let him rot in a 4'x8' cell for 23 hours a day.

Granted, given Karol Wojtiya's personal experiences in Poland, I get why he would be against the death penalty, seeing as how it was implemented via Soviet purview. That doesn't negate the fact that there's a merciful effect for the executed, since it is still a temporal punishment. That's the other thing: the truly repentant who are condemned are met with the intent for a quick death; heretics being burned is neither merciful nor intended to be quick.

Blogger Servant April 13, 2017 1:19 PM  

Notice even the "hard" old testament never speaks of locking someone away for life.

Anonymous Raptor disrespect from behind April 13, 2017 1:33 PM  

It is interesting to see that there has been some backlash to some of the more universalist approaches some churches are adopting. In the DC area there has been some graffiti on a local church sign which origially read, Honor god, say no to anti-muslim bigotry. The last part was crossed out and in its place, "Jesus knows no traitors" was put in its place.

For some reason they also put up a swastika on a related sign (and defaced a local jewish community center down the street), so who knows what is really going on.

http://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2017/04/hate-based-graffiti-found-on-2-fairfax-churches/slide/1/

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable April 13, 2017 1:33 PM  

Notice even the "hard" old testament never speaks of locking someone away for life.

Because it's a dumb idea. You get little or no value from a prisoner, and you just end up with a giant bill to keep him alive. I say depending on the severity of the offence, kill 'em, or make 'em compensate their victims. No in-between.

Anonymous Nada April 13, 2017 1:36 PM  

AC wrote:>>Presbyterian takeover pre-dated Gramsci and could not have been inspired by him

It also pre-dated the arrival of our (((Russian Khazar))) immigrants.


Not the Sephardic Marranos and (((cryptos))) like the Rockefellers who were already well established in the country and waging their anti-Christian culture war long before the (((Russian Khazar))) influx.

Blogger FALPhil April 13, 2017 1:43 PM  

@55 Somebody could write a very similar book on the transformation of the Southern Baptist church from rather conservative (Billy Graham) to Liberalism-As-A-Religious-Duty (Mike Huckabee).
Heh. The Grahams were Presbyterians.

Blogger Servant April 13, 2017 1:45 PM  

Amen.

Blogger Were-Puppy April 13, 2017 1:46 PM  

@19 Nate

Its fools strategy because every single time... they just end up killing the institution. They fight so hard to control the body... but when they finally achieve their goal... the body is a corpse.
---

That's the actual goal, if the god they serve is the devil.

Anonymous digger April 13, 2017 1:49 PM  

What you all are missing is that the American church is preconverged. Even the most fundamental conservative churches is steeped in feminism. This long March is enabled by the fact the average partitioner is more scared of woman than God.

Think yours is the exception? Look around, do your female congragants cover their heads during prayer per the command of 1 Cor 11 (a practice followed by all traditions until the rise of feminism in the 20th)?

If not then you've upended the order of creation and your day will come.

Blogger Were-Puppy April 13, 2017 1:49 PM  

@22 anonymos-coward

If you want to fix this then you need to go all the way back.
---

You mean way back before the Popes all the way back to house churches?

Blogger Servant April 13, 2017 1:59 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Koanic April 13, 2017 2:01 PM  

There is absolutely no reason for anyone to respect Christians who will not kill to defend their faith.

Any man will kill to defend himself and his loved ones, so if he won't kill for his faith, he doesn't love it. Period.

OpenID anonymos-coward April 13, 2017 2:22 PM  

Were-Puppy wrote:You mean way back before the Popes all the way back to house churches?

No, I mean back to the time when people didn't view heresy as a politically expedient lifestyle choice.

Blogger Were-Puppy April 13, 2017 2:31 PM  

@89 A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents
Does Glock make barbecue sauce yet? Asking for a friend.
---

Yes, but it is strangely pink like that sauce at some hibachi bars.

Blogger CM April 13, 2017 2:50 PM  

Raptor disrespect from behind wrote:@103

Several Episcopal churches near me did exactly that and got into lawsuits over keeping their buildings after they split off. I looked into those churches and they were a far too modern in style that made my wife and I feel rather uncomfortable. It is harder to find an old smells and bells high church that has split off.



The problem with high church is that it is expensive. Incense, goblets, cruets, and linens cost a pretty penny.

My parents' split-off church started their own altar guild to make a lot of those items that were missing - communion kneelers, chasubles, altar linens...

I feel for you. I'm largely in the same boat, myself. I'm currently attending a conservative Episcopal church. Its fine. The teaching and liturgy are still there. I can not give up weekly communion and the liturgy. I have to have the 3 readings with a Psalm. I have to have confession and the rhythm of church seasons.

None of this can be found outside Anglican or Episcopal churches. I could attend a good one maybe once or twice, but I would be homesick and miserable for this theological tradition.

Anonymous CarpeOro April 13, 2017 2:55 PM  

"VFM #4388 wrote:In January of 1974, the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod suspended the president of their St. Louis seminary as part of an investigation that showed the majority of the faculty did not follow the seminary's constitution, nor agree with the Lutheran confessions.

The next day, 45 of the 50 faculty members and 274 of the 381 students walked out in protest and started holding separate classes where they flew their leftist flags freely and defiantly.

So the LCMS fired the dissenting faculty and flunked the dissenting students.

The St. Louis Seminary is still functioning. The expelled lefty seminary, on the other hand, had to be absorbed into several pre-existing converged churches.

Good times.
"

I grew up in a ALC church got confirmed and was a representative to a district convention just before the merge into the ELCA. Coming from a liberal leaning household (parent's blue collar family backgrounds), reading Newsweek (though only really liking George Will). As a representative I recall we were going to vote on a resolution to make sure the other two partners in the proposed merge (read "crime") were divested from South African stocks. Sadly too late for me to get my two cents in that we shouldn't divest, not that anyone would have listened to a 19 year old anyway. I remember borrowing a video regarding Liberation Theology or something in Central America from the church library for a paper I was writing on El Salvador. Flash forward several years later, I had stopped attending there and started attending a Mennonite descendant denomination. I recall hearing that the ELCA was going to vote on whether to allow homosexuals full membership into fellowship or some such. I drove back to the church I had been confirmed in and asked my pastor to have my name struck from the rolls. He tried the line that they were only discussing it - I didn't bite and remained adamant to have my name struck from the rolls. I had no desire to have even the vestige of affiliation with them. Can't say I'm happy I was correct, but honestly not surprised. I didn't sense the zeal to reverse the fall of the church.

Funny thing, I recall at a youth convention (with some decided New Age tinges from what I recall, besides the sex) hearing a "joke" about heaven. One of those "my father has many mansions things" about strolling along and seeing many different denominations and such about, then seeing of in the distance a lone church. The punchline was it was the Missouri Synod, thinking they were the only ones in heaven. Funny how the punchline today would be because the ELCA was looking at a distance because they didn't make it into heaven. The Lord will not suffer those that lead his children astray.

Blogger tz April 13, 2017 3:00 PM  

@92 So...as to the question at hand. What is the path forward from here? We have fled and fled and fled for years into our enclaves. The schism has already happened, we are dug into our redoubts. But, how do we flip the script and no longer be the refugees?

We don't. We are not of this world and the world will always hate us. "My kingdom is not of this world".

That said, after doing due philosophical and theological diligence we can decide what to defend and how, including with violence.

However I have never been able to understand the defacto ultra-pacifism on the Abortion Holocaust, at least when compared with the blood-lust with wanting to murder muslims including women and children, at least from a Christian perspective. And being ok with torture and capital punishment. George Tiller killed as many innocents and had their blood literally on his hands, but everyone got upset when he was assassinated.

This is why I see all of this talk at best futile. Christians, even the most militant who had seen "atrocties" committed in Iraq and have no problem with slaughtering those "inhuman murderers" somehow either won't look at the Planned Parenthood videos or can justify inaction.

In a parody of Charles Dickens' "Telescopic Philanthropy" from Bleak House, we have Telescopic outrage, where chidren in Syria or Iraq (except the 1/2 million we killed via our sanctions) or bacha brazi in Afghanistan are somehow more outrageous than the 60 million dismembered and heads crushed in their Mothers' wombs. Ah, but if you did something you might be arrested and the jury wouldn't nullify. But if you are cucked on the Abortion Holocaust, you are a cuck, even when you try to overcompensate in the middle east by slaughtering hadjis.

Anonymous Bz April 13, 2017 3:00 PM  

"heretics being burned is neither merciful nor intended to be quick."

Still mild compared to what comes next.

Blogger CM April 13, 2017 3:01 PM  

The Lord will not suffer those that lead his children astray.

A friend (priest) of mine was quite adamant that Racism was heresy that needed to be eradicated from the church. I told him that racism, properly defined, is the natural result of sinful natures and that, as a priest, he has no right to kick sinners out of the church unless he'd like a kick in his own pants.

Heresy is what prevents us from knowing who Christ is. Its a misrepresentation and bearing false witness to the Revelation of God. THIS is why it was so punished beyond simply being a sinner. A sinner can not know Christ if all he has been taught is heresy.

Blogger mushroom April 13, 2017 3:13 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Koanic April 13, 2017 3:13 PM  

Torturing and burning heretics is without Biblical precedent. Those who do it are holier than Jehovah, aka faggots.

Burning with fire is reserved for specific cases of outrageous sexual immorality, AFAIK.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/burning.html

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 13, 2017 3:13 PM  

CM wrote:

None of this can be found outside Anglican or Episcopal churches. I could attend a good one maybe once or twice, but I would be homesick and miserable for this theological tradition.


To paraphrase Tolkein, the Anglican Church has only one unalterable dogma, "Thank god we're not Catholic."

Blogger tz April 13, 2017 3:16 PM  

The Bible also clearly warns - flashing danger sign - that such people will arise and do exactly such things yet somehow those who read and believe the Bible can read the warnings and see it happening in real time and deny it is happening, or make excuses.

The Devil has an easier time with liberals. They are bent in that the SJW false gospel and Christ after being inserted will be self-perpetuating. But the Devil has to be more seductive and distracting with conservatives. "He's such a nice pastor, he can't really be preaching heresy". The evangelism is slowly strangled while helping the poor, sick, etc., not doing it to "the least of these", but allowing Satan's captives to be comfortable in their atrium to hell. And objectors are never pure, but even the conservatives are more worried about being nasty rather than any of their arguments.

In the most recent Radical Agenda, Christopher Cantwell found that when he was called a Racist, he would simply admit it and then ask "So what is your point", and the opposition would collapse. They literally had no comeback.

That is one of the critical bits - you aren't supposed to defend yourself from personal attack, you are covered by the precious blood of Jesus. You are to defend the truth.

Anonymous bjornagain April 13, 2017 3:26 PM  

This is something I've been thinking about a lot lately, but at a broader level than infiltration of Christianity or even SJWs. It seems as though there is a real tendency for many people in a culture to lean in the liberal direction. This tendency has a spectrum, and the further left you move, the higher your tendency for traits like: lying, infiltration/sneakiness, snark, narrow-minded analyticity, and other related behaviors. It's as though the whole "crypto" phenomenon, is something that goes down to a congenital or soul level, and is directly related to what we call liberalism.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 13, 2017 3:29 PM  

bjornagain wrote:It seems as though there is a real tendency for women in a culture to lean in the liberal direction. This tendency has a spectrum, and the further left you move, the higher your tendency for traits like: lying, infiltration/sneakiness, snark, narrow-minded analyticity, and other related behaviors.
FIFY.

Feminism is Cancer.

Blogger Servant April 13, 2017 3:32 PM  

@131

And amen again.

As for our pacifism on abortion it is such a great tragedy. I seethe when I see politicians sitting and debating with murderers. That is why we always lose. These people don't really believe in anything. If they did, they wouldn't be able to stomach discussions on the merits in so detached a manner.

Like all the calls for compromise. A compromise is not I have X, you have nothing, you shriek and cry for half of X over and over and over and over again until I have nothing. When men who have values compromise with filth who hold nothing sacred, they end up giving away everything for nothing. To appease at best vapid soulless abominations seeking nothing but the next pleasant experience, or at worst Satan himself.

Blogger DonReynolds April 13, 2017 3:46 PM  

@111 Servant
"Notice even the "hard" old testament never speaks of locking someone away for life."

Prisons are a fairly recent invention and considered much more humane than any punishments prescribed by the Old Testament or those later provided by law in British society.

Life in prison is often imposed as a more humane alternative to capital punishment. I have always advocated exile as an alternative to capital punishment.

Even the Victorians had no problem with hanging pickpockets in public and the punishments visited on Traitors would even shock ISIS these days. Witches and heretics were burned alive.
For minor infractions the punishment could be blinding, amputation, branding, or the lash, or a combination of all.

Yes, prison is a step up in human development.

Blogger DonReynolds April 13, 2017 3:58 PM  

@114 FALPhil
"The Grahams were Presbyterians."

You need to check your notes.
Billy Graham was ordained a Southern Baptist minister.

You must be thinking about Mr Fred McFeely Rogers and his "Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood". He was ordained as a United Presbyterian minister. He graduated Pittsburg Theological in 1963.

Blogger Servant April 13, 2017 4:14 PM  

DonReynolds wrote:
Yes, prison is a step up in human development.

Whoop whoop whoop Humanist alert.

Please don't believe I was addressing you. If you want to tell me that it's somehow humane to put someone in a prison I welcome you to tour one. Treating men like beasts to be caged is so incredibly evil.

A quick merciful death. If you decide someone is not fit to be in your company anymore, you don't put him in the company of the worst people in the world. And you certainly don't pass off the responsibility on some other society.

Blogger VD April 13, 2017 4:44 PM  

He basically calls out the liberals for their dishonesty and says they should show some integrity and leave the denomination.

No wonder he lost. He was an idiot. When your strategy relies on expecting liars to show integrity, it's absolutely going to fail.

Anonymous Odd Wobble April 13, 2017 4:45 PM  

This book is available for free download at
http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs/pdf/crossed_fingers.pdf

There's lots of other good interesting books there too.

Blogger DonReynolds April 13, 2017 5:07 PM  

@137 Servant

"If you want to tell me that it's somehow humane to put someone in a prison I welcome you to tour one."

I taught in the Federal prison at Memphis for two years. I have seen and yes, it is much more humane than what they richly deserve.

Any who prefer or want a quick death can have it. Not even difficult. Some do.

Anonymous sqeekie April 13, 2017 5:07 PM  

Any relation to Peter?

Blogger Noah B The MacroAggressor April 13, 2017 5:24 PM  

I taught in the Federal prison at Memphis for two years. I have seen and yes, it is much more humane than what they richly deserve.

Plenty of people in prisons should never have been there in the first place.

Blogger Servant April 13, 2017 5:28 PM  

The coward shrinks from the sword. He refuses to pick it up. He offers it to the convict. "Please do my job for me"

How humane.

Blogger DonReynolds April 13, 2017 5:43 PM  

@142 Noah
"Plenty of people in prisons should never have been there in the first place."

I absolutely agree.
We have criminalized behaviors that were not considered crimes in the past.
We also have prosecutors who imagine crimes that never happened.

One of my students, I remember well, was from Orlando and he was a biker. He got a call from a woman friend, who was a hooker. She asked him for a ride to the bus station. She was tired of Florida and was going to visit family in Jackson, Mississippi. He gave her a ride on his motorcycle. Of course, she asked him for money. He gave her ten dollars. She had not been in Jackson long before she resorted to her usual trade and was busted by the local police. When searched, they found her Florida drivers license and started to ask questions. How did she get to the bus station? Did he give you money? All of which resulted in a call to the US Attorney and the young man was charged with violating the Mann Act of 1925...and he was sentenced to 25 years in Federal prison.
No, I do not believe a crime was committed.

Blogger Yemi Fawehinmi April 13, 2017 5:51 PM  

Sorry, this the third time trying to post this. I apologise if my other posts are held in moderation.

Vox, you have been misinformed about Machen. Machen did not expect integrity from the liberals because he never believed they were Christians in the first place. He said they believed and expressed an entiredly different religion. He had a very high view of doctrine and did not compromise. He followed Luthers priniciple of "Peace if possible, Truth at all cost". He was constantly attacked by moderate Christians (we know how that goes) for not playing nice with Liberials. Eventually they kicked out of Princeton and the Northern Presbyertian Church.

He ended up doing what you always tell us. He built his own platform. He created the Orthodox Presbytarian Church (OPC) and Westminster Theological Seminary. Both still exist today.

Machen was battling both the Churchians of his time and the injection modernism into the Church and Seminaries. And the entryism that started then is why the PCUSA is dying.

Anonymous JAG April 13, 2017 5:52 PM  

Lazarus wrote:JaimeInTexas wrote:Muslim created false flag or low level conflict protest?

Most likely a hoax by an SJW. I don't think muslims are allowed to do that. They can lie, cheat, and steal and kill in the name of Allah, but I don't think they can dis the book for political gain.

If it is a low level protest, I hope they did a big dump on top of it as well.


They can, and have done so in Guantanamo Bay.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 13, 2017 6:02 PM  

@107 Servant
Right. Look. Denominations are man made constructs which are evil. The whole notion of church government seems to be evil.

Denominations are inevitable. Any group of more than a few humans needs rules to function.

Denominations are inevitable because everyone reads the Bible a little different. Therefore different people will accent different aspects. This has been true since the 1st century. Were Paul and Silas of one mind when they went out planting churches? Do the letters of John, of James and of Peter all teach exactly the same thing? No. Sinful, fallen men will disagree and quarrel. That's why we have clear, simple ways to reconcile spelled out in the Gospels. That's also why we have a way to separate out goats from sheep.

How do you propose a few hundred believing Christians do things like take care of widows and the poor, keep a meeting place in good repair, teach children and new converts? That's what church governance is about.

Calling the things that God has put in place 'evil' is rather presumptuous of you, Servant.

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable April 13, 2017 6:06 PM  

How do you propose a few hundred believing Christians do things like take care of widows and the poor, keep a meeting place in good repair, teach children and new converts? That's what church governance is about.

Calling the things that God has put in place 'evil' is rather presumptuous of you, Servant.


I call bollocks on that, Paradigm.

A few hundred Christians can easily take care of THEIR widows and poor, which is all they are expected to do. We are never asked to save the world, just those who belong to us through blood or because they are in front of our faces. Nobody needs this infrastructure that so-called believers insist on building.

Blogger Servant April 13, 2017 6:21 PM  

You shall know them by their fruits.

It is not presumptuous to call things God has ordained evil, it is blasphemy. Let's not mince words.

God did not ordain denominations. Paul said roughly, disagreeing about petty things was wrong. If my brother does not eat meat on Fridays, I will not eat meat on Fridays in his presence, dissuade him from his practice, or further discourage him from honoring God in the ways he knows how. That's dont be your brothers stumbling block.

It is wrong to mark divisions in the brotherhood.

I doubt I need to defend my dismissal of voting in church matters as evil. Anyone who holds a vote on abortion, gay marriage, or women preachers has not read the bible or does not regard it as absolute.

I further extrapolate that to any voting on church matters just to keep people out of the habit, though I realize not everyone is as undemocratic as I am.

I will note that the apostles,when deciding how to bring their number up to twelve after Judas's betrayal, fasted, prayed, and then they cast lots. They didn't vote.

I will also point out that God had a plan to replace Judas, one they never could have foreseen, and could have probably skipped the selection of Matthias.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 13, 2017 6:22 PM  

I call bollocks on that, Paradigm.

A few hundred Christians can easily take care of THEIR widows and poor, which is all they are expected to do.


Someone has to be in charge of care of widows. See Acts chapter 6.
Deacons are part of governing the church. They are part of church governance. Declaring that the office of deacon is evil is presumptuous, to say the least.

Repeat the exercise for overseers, teachers, preachers. Call them Bishops or elders or something else, they are part of the governing of the church.

Who decides when a brother or sister is an unrepentant sinner and must be removed from the body? How is this to be done in good order? Church governance again.

@ Servant:
Read Paul's letter to Timothy. Tell me what parts of that letter are evil.

We are never asked to save the world, just those who belong to us through blood or because they are in front of our faces. Nobody needs this infrastructure that so-called believers insist on building.

Who are you arguing with? Not me. Must be someone else.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey April 13, 2017 6:35 PM  

@AC

"oh yes... Muh (((Moldbug)))

The Pope of current year is a secret puritan."

Heh. There is some element of truth to the Moldbuggian hypothesis, of course. It's just that relying on it as a sole explanation is not helpful, and functions to divert attention from other aspects of the problem (and to inflict unnecessary verbosity on the long-suffering goyim). The tale above is pretty much Moldbuggery in microcosm.

Anonymous Didas Kalos April 13, 2017 6:52 PM  

LOL. That may get you some raised eyebrows.

Anonymous Didas Kalos April 13, 2017 6:55 PM  

Yes.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey April 13, 2017 6:55 PM  

@Gaiseric

"If you take it somewhere where it doesn't, then you're just sperging."

Not that it's the case in this instance, but more generally speaking, it's also an effective technique for entryism. Divide and conquer.

Anonymous Didas Kalos April 13, 2017 6:57 PM  

Origen

Anonymous Atheium April 13, 2017 7:00 PM  

"It is long past time to stop believing the bullshit that to be a Christian one must be nice and accommodating. God is love, but there are many things He hates. He will back us up in the long run if we stand up to the world and its lies, deception, and denial of reality"

Nice or not, I'm sorry to report that when it is your time and the time for other Christians to depart this life, you will be in for no surprise at all. Nor will you be disappointed or happy. You will be nothing . Because there is nothing other than what you have right now as you are living. The question of faith, God, Good and Nice is wasted.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey April 13, 2017 7:03 PM  

@HoosierHillbilly

"Damn it man. The whole f'in boat is sinking. Once we get Christendom to stop taking on water, then we can go back to happily yelling and beating eachother up about whether Johnsons or Mercs give the best performance."

Exactly. Kind of analogous to White Nationalism, in a way.

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable April 13, 2017 7:11 PM  

Who decides when a brother or sister is an unrepentant sinner and must be removed from the body? How is this to be done in good order? Church governance again.

Er ... how is this remotely difficult in a group of a few hundred believers (your number, BTW)? I don't disagree with any of this, but you don't need a denomination to handle it. Any small local church with a few elders can do it, and do it perfectly biblically.

Denominations just make for unnecessary politics and infrastructure. Nuke the lot, I say.

Anonymous A Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 13, 2017 7:23 PM  

@158
Er ... how is this remotely difficult in a group of a few hundred believers (your number, BTW)?

Have you ever belonged to a church for more than a few months, as an adult? Serious, direct question, because you are coming across as a teenager, college student or very recent convert. Anyone who has spent any time in a church of even 50 has seen bad things happen.

I don't disagree with any of this, but you don't need a denomination to handle it.

You chose to attack me over church governance. I'm patiently explaining it to you, with Scripture references. Why are you shifting the goalposts to a different topic, if you are sincere in your discussion?

Any small local church with a few elders can do it, and do it perfectly biblically.

That's what I said before, and you jumped down my throat calling "bollocks" on church governance. Why don't you make up your mind what it is that you want to argue about?

Denominations just make for unnecessary politics and infrastructure. Nuke the lot, I say.

Church governance is both Scriptural and necessary.
Denominations are inevitable, because sinful humans disagree on how to read the Bible.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 13, 2017 7:34 PM  

Atheium wrote:Nice or not, I'm sorry to report that when it is your time and the time for other Christians to depart this life, you will be in for no surprise at all. Nor will you be disappointed or happy. You will be nothing . Because there is nothing other than what you have right now as you are living. The question of faith, God, Good and Nice is wasted.
And you base this on exactly what evidence, Mr Science?

Blogger SemiSpook37 April 13, 2017 7:44 PM  

@Atheum

Not for nothing, "nice" has nothing to do with Salvation. Every day is a struggle for one's soul. The question you need to answer at the end isn't if you were nice, it's if you did the right thing. Huge difference.

Blogger Beau April 13, 2017 7:47 PM  

Who decides when a brother or sister is an unrepentant sinner and must be removed from the body?

He who has tested the spirit and found it false. The message being vile - in opposition to the gospel - the messenger hardened against correct teaching from the scripture, arrogantly tempting the faithful to renounce the gospel delivered once for all to join the messenger's perversion. When perceived the messenger will not stop of his or her own accord, then any of God's faithful capable of exercising discernment and faith may use the power of the keys to exclude the unrepentant (usually local body leadership) and hand them over for the destruction of the flesh that perhaps the sinner would repent.

Anonymous BBGKB April 13, 2017 8:07 PM  

How do you propose a few hundred believing Christians do things like take care of widows and the poor, keep a meeting place in good repair, teach children and new converts?

There are not enough Asians and white people to take care of all of the Latrinas with their crack babies in the US without going into debt. Why are you talking about taking care of people who never were a part of your church or single moms who whored it up then decided to find god?

Anonymous Atheium April 13, 2017 8:35 PM  

"And you base this on exactly what evidence, Mr Science?"

Beyond the fact that the faithful and fearful have been wrong about their faiths for thousands of years?

What do you care. You've got pray'in to do.

Anonymous Atheium April 13, 2017 8:41 PM  

"Not for nothing, "nice" has nothing to do with Salvation. Every day is a struggle for one's soul. The question you need to answer at the end isn't if you were nice, it's if you did the right thing. Huge difference."

That's incorrect. Whether you did the right thing is the think you need to ask throughout your life. It matters less at the end. As for Salvation, you ain't getting any. If you are lucky, you'll get forgiveness from your fellow man.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 13, 2017 8:42 PM  

Atheium wrote:"And you base this on exactly what evidence, Mr Science?"

Beyond the fact that the faithful and fearful have been wrong about their faiths for thousands of years?

What do you care. You've got pray'in to do.


no, it's a fair question, you come in here, shit up the comments, support your statement.

Or run away like the little faggot you undoubtedly are.

Just so long as everybody knows that your are simply making shit up to alleviate your knowledge of your own failure.

Blogger Cail Corishev April 13, 2017 8:54 PM  

Guys, poop wearing a fedora is still poop.

Blogger SemiSpook37 April 13, 2017 8:56 PM  

Cail Corishev wrote:Guys, poop wearing a fedora is still poop.

Good point. I'ma go wash my hands now.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 13, 2017 9:01 PM  

Cail Corishev wrote:Guys, poop wearing a fedora is still poop.
Yeah, sorry.

Anonymous Atheium April 13, 2017 9:05 PM  

"Or run away like the little faggot you undoubtedly are."

You say it like it's a bad thing.

At least you didn't call me a Christian.

Anonymous Tristen April 13, 2017 9:06 PM  

"no, it's a fair question, you come in here, shit up the comments, support your statement."

No one else prefaced their assumption of a God with proof or evidence.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 13, 2017 9:10 PM  

Besides, I'm the one who wears (and makes, and even sells) fedoras.

Blogger Beau April 13, 2017 9:24 PM  

No one else prefaced their assumption of a God with proof or evidence.

Last week I traveled to California because my cousin was being pulled off life support. The day I arrived he was unresponsive and on ventilation. I laid my hand on his forehead, "In the mighty name of Jesus, Johnny, open your eyes with a sparkle, your internal organs be healed, and you walk out of this hospital." The next day Johnny was awake, alert, and joking with the family. The report from a family member who was not in the room at that time was, "Something just happened. His kidneys started working again." The day I returned home to New Mexico was the day I got word Johnny was going home. First hand testimony.

Blogger Cail Corishev April 13, 2017 9:24 PM  

@Snidely: Heh, no offense. I might try one if I could be sure I'd look like Mike Hammer, and not like....you know.

Blogger The Overgrown Hobbit April 13, 2017 9:31 PM  

This could be helpful for our church Thanks.

Blogger Beau April 13, 2017 9:34 PM  

Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near. Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.” “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each person according to what he has done. Revelation 22:10-12

Truly Lord, you allow men to set their own course, either following their own lusts to eternal conscious punishment, or yielding to you into everlasting life.

Blogger SemiSpook37 April 13, 2017 10:04 PM  

Beau wrote:"Something just happened. His kidneys started working again."

You can't tell me that's not "from nothing".

Blogger Beau April 13, 2017 10:16 PM  

You can't tell me that's not "from nothing".

It was from application of James 5:14-15, "Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven." As Johnny's father, and adult daughter, and myself, those in the room at the time can testify. Not "from nothing," but from prayer in faith.

Anonymous B Heisler April 13, 2017 10:17 PM  

Don't know if anybody else has heard of this preacher; this sermon seems to fit this topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC_tMECGDI4

Blogger Scott Shafer April 13, 2017 10:20 PM  

The UMC is dead. I ran afoul of a Bishop for walking out of an event that was being led by a registered sex offender. I have no tolerance for those who have preyed on children.

Blogger Scott Shafer April 13, 2017 10:22 PM  

Sin is something that they have every excuse for doing, but there is no cure for the sins that they excoriate. Even Christ would fall short of their lofty standards.

Blogger Scott Shafer April 13, 2017 10:25 PM  

For the UMC, it is the Africans and Asians who continue to hold he denomination to scriptural standards. For them the Word of God is not an affectation but a life making choice. It is a shame that progressives have thoroughly denigrated their scriptural stand.

Blogger Scott Shafer April 13, 2017 10:31 PM  

If the focus is not on evangelism, then these good works mean nothing. Works are an excuse for not talking about the faith. Someone feels full from a meal for a short time, but they will hunger again. We have the living bread, but refuse to share.

Blogger Scott Shafer April 13, 2017 10:33 PM  

We follow Crowley, "Do what thou will" has become the whole of our law.

Blogger Scott Shafer April 13, 2017 10:33 PM  

Yes.

Blogger tz April 13, 2017 10:34 PM  

The reformed Presbeterian church, some parents didn't want to lie so lost the kids
H/t Copblock

Blogger Beau April 13, 2017 10:36 PM  

We have the living bread, but refuse to share.

Because of the hardness of our hearts, sin is too alluring and even the best are choked out by weeds. O that we would return from backsliding and take up our cross daily to follow him.

Blogger Scott Shafer April 13, 2017 10:37 PM  

The Christian faith has been built upon sacrifice. Most notably, we follow God's son who sacrificed himself in order that others might find life. We are called to take up our crosses and follow. We sacrifice ourselves for the sake of Christ. Killing someone else for the sake of my faith? That is something that other religions do.

Blogger tz April 13, 2017 10:41 PM  

I should clarify abortion, ultrapacifism, and the aternative. It is a trilemma

1. I'm proud of slaughtering monstrous hadjis in Afghanistan and Iraq for their abuse of children and babies - their evil is exceptional.

2. I believe Abortion is a Holocaust and murdering of innocents and that abortionists are monsters.

3. I don't belive in risking anything to do to abortionists because I might be arrested and not released after nullification like the Wisconsin abolitionist that murdered a slave hunter.

That gang-bangers have nothing to fear is not surprising. Abortionists who Christians would admit are monsters who mass murder the unborn are perfectly safe from them. If you can't bring yourself to nullify Roeder's charge (who killed George Tiller, 20k abortions, mostly late term or partial birth), you won't do anything about BLM raping, murdering, and pillaging even when it happens in your neighborhood.

Blogger Scott Shafer April 13, 2017 10:43 PM  

I would not dare to presume that God has put this infrastructure in place. It was invented by sinners and is this fallen. Why this continues to surprise me...

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 13, 2017 10:47 PM  

@163
How do you propose a few hundred believing Christians do things like take care of widows and the poor, keep a meeting place in good repair, teach children and new converts?

BGKB
There are not enough Asians and white people to take care of all of the Latrinas with their crack babies in the US without going into debt.

So? What does that have to do with church governance?

Why are you talking about taking care of people who never were a part of your church or single moms who whored it up then decided to find god?

I"m not.
Dude, you talk to the voices in your head all you want. If you are addressing me then don't make shit up and pretend I said it.
That's called "lying".

Anonymous Sam the Man April 13, 2017 10:51 PM  

Very interesting discussion.

The Atheist trouble maker that came in was not able to cause a fuss, he was simply pushed aside. Good show all.

The only possible contribution I could make is with the governance, I seem to recall that JC specifically tells his church leaders how to resolve disputes in 18 Matthew. if a fellow offends on of the leaders, first talk to him in private, then with two other members to see if the issue can be resolved and finally with the entire assembly of the congregation, then chuck the fellow out. What I find interesting about that is that the decision is decided by the assembly of the church (Ecclesia), which almost all Christian sects (to my knowledge, feel free to correct me on this matter) have mistranslated to Church (Curia), which implies that the general parishioners are excluded.

perhaps that is an issue leading to these issues all sects seem to suffer from.

Then again I have no systematic knowledge on this, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong on this.

Blogger John rockwell April 13, 2017 11:03 PM  

@DonReynolds
Prison is not only a crime workshop where criminals become more hardened but recruiting ground for future security threats like ISIS and various dangerous criminal gangs who turn into ISIS.

It is a waste of money and time and unbiblical in the extreme.

Jail should only be for pre-trial detention,death row and Completely solitary Gulags where the only human contact they have is Pastors and security that enable people to pay off debts that cannot and will not be paid off outside with an honest job,
Otherwise lashes for minor crimes, Fines and lashes for more serious crimes preferably garnished off their income and death for those crimes that deserve death.

NO Crime workshop NO incubator for future security threats only just deserts.

Prisons are failures as far as I am concerned.

Anonymous Atheium April 13, 2017 11:10 PM  

"You can't tell me that's not "from nothing"."

Sure I Can...That's from nothing. But more importantly...

"It was from application of James 5:14-15, "Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick."

What to make of all those millions? of times the church has prayed over a dying person and the person was not restored? Was god on the 1st tee and missed the prayer? Did they not pray really, really hard?

Please....sell it in church...where logic ain't nothing to concern ourselves with.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 13, 2017 11:38 PM  

@162 Beau

The Corinthian church being an example. Paul was inspired to write directly to them on the topic of church discipline. The purpose is to preserve the purity and peace of the church, and that the Gospel not be tarnished in the eyes of the world by actions of believers.

Scripture is always best.
2 Thess. 3:14-15
1 Cor. 5:4-5
Always ready to receive the truly repentant back
2 Cor. 2:6-8

Also see:
Rom. 16:17; 2 Thess. 3:6-15; Phil. 3:17-19

The shepherds are to protect the sheep from infiltration by goats.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 14, 2017 12:05 AM  

You have utterly failed to support your assertions. They can simply be dismissed out of hand.

Blogger Beau April 14, 2017 12:26 AM  

The shepherds are to protect the sheep from infiltration by goats.

Yes, and consider also:

Titus 1:10-11
1 Timothy 1:19-20
2 Timothy 2:16-18

Shepherds have a positive duty to protect the message of the gospel from deceivers by the tools given us by the chief shepherd.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 14, 2017 12:32 AM  

@196 Snidely
You have utterly failed to support your assertions. They can simply be dismissed out of hand.

Who is this directed towards?

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 14, 2017 12:35 AM  

@197 Beau


Shepherds have a positive duty to protect the message of the gospel from deceivers by the tools given us by the chief shepherd.


Yes. Exactly. And those who are chosen as shepherds have a larger duty.

This is what Servant doesn't seem to grasp when he declares that church governance is evil. Maybe he's confused, or had some bad experience with churchians. I pray he reads all of the letter to Timothy for a start.

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