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Monday, April 24, 2017

The end of "religious freedom"

It appears that Russia is leading the way towards a much-needed rejection of "religious freedom" in the West:
Russia’s crackdown on religious activity took a major step forward this week as the Justice Ministry banned Jehovah’s Witnesses. Russia has steadily curtailed rights to evangelize in recent years, but this move signals their commitment to aggressively policing private religious activity. The Russian supreme court ruled that Jehovah’s Witnesses amount to an “extremist group,” and therefore the government is shutting down their headquarters and local chapters, seizing their property, and banning them from meeting.

Vladimir Putin’s campaign to strengthen ties between the government and the Russian Orthodox denomination has included the passing of absurdly broad laws that prohibit “religious discord” and can easily be deployed against any religion or sect. This ruling will directly harm the 175,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses in the country, but it also poses a clear threat to other minority religious groups, such as Protestant Christians. Without genuine protections for the free exercise of religion, the government has remarkably free rein to determine the social benefits of a given religion — and that means trampling the consciences of those who fall victim to government caprice.
I don't suppose there are any other religious groups that pose a similar threat to the Russian people, their security, and public order, are there?

Religious freedom is a bogus and ill-considered pseudoright. In practice, it has been turned into a weapon that is almost solely used against Christianity across the West, and therefore it has to be abandoned. It has always been a charade anyhow; any religious belief or practice that challenges the state is always going to be banned no matter how sincerely held it may be. No one is about to let Aztecs start mass sacrificing to the sun or permit Druids to burn people in wicker baskets, no matter how historically legitimate their religious traditions are.

In like manner, any religion that harms the commonwealth merits similar outlaw status. Let people live among others of like religion if they wish to practice their religious traditions. How serious and sincere can their beliefs be anyway, and how much do those beliefs merit respect, if non-Christians would rather live in Christendom among Christians than where Islam, Hinduism, Shinto, or Judaism are the state religion?

Don't be fooled by the appeal to imaginary fears for Protestants. The concept of religious freedom in the USA died the moment prayer was banned in the public schools, and the coffin was nailed shut when Muslim immigration was encouraged. There is no legitimate moral, legal, or philosophical reason that every nation in Christendom should not proceed to ban all non-Christian religions as readily as atheist regimes banned Christianity in the 20th century.

The Enlightenment, such as it was, ended a long time ago. It failed. It is long past time to reject its failed liberal precepts.

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239 Comments:

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Blogger Wanderer April 24, 2017 2:07 AM  

I think religious freedom was only ever intended to apply within Christianity. Back then the mainstream view was that Christianity really was the only actual religion, and everything else was pagan savagery. Thinking that all religions are on equal terms is a modern concept.

Anonymous Jill April 24, 2017 2:18 AM  

Liberalism is self destructive because it lacks a foundation. It can never operate as a first principle. From a liberal perspective, Russia is operating in an almost criminal manner, but I view it as an attempt to fix their broken foundation.

Blogger Shane Sullivan April 24, 2017 2:23 AM  

Vox, how do modern Europeans feel about Christianity? As an outsider, to me, they seem to be rather ambivalent towards their Christian past.

Anonymous Icicle April 24, 2017 2:23 AM  

This ruling will directly harm the 175,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses in the country,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkvIlrLiy9o

No one is about to let Aztecs start mass sacrificing to the sun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG8WqEyXIyc
*

or permit Druids to burn people in wicker baskets, no matter how historically legitimate their religious traditions are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74DeoFjmA74

True religious freedom truly is a beautiful, beautiful thing.
*I'm aware those are Mayan not Aztec, but close enough.

Blogger Resident Moron™ April 24, 2017 2:34 AM  

"No one is about to let Aztecs start mass sacrificing to the sun"

Although the Muslim mayhem of late is a remarkably parallel phenomena and actively encouraged by the loony left.

Blogger Doom April 24, 2017 2:34 AM  

Yep.

From my reviews of things, religious freedom never was really allowed. It used to be a tool used by whichever faith was strongest in the area (as a lie behind which they attacked the other forms of Christianity). Just between Christian faiths. Jews, muslims, 'atheists', Hindus, and the rest, got to suck dust... at best. Still is that way, at least where secularism hasn't grabbed control. They are just doing what was done to them.

I like the general notion that absolute religious freedom is allowed (except all those other religions, and those damned denominations). Gotta keep 'em separated. However, if it isn't Christian, one way or another, it can't be allowed in or to maintain or gain power. Gotta fix that.

Anonymous Herb Rouche April 24, 2017 2:39 AM  

I wonder how sincerely Vox would actually hold this position?

What if the most powerful Christian denomination, Catholicism (1 Billion+ strong) reverted to outlawing protestant denominations in Christian countries? Would he agree that was wise? What if every form of Christianity was outlawed except for Catholicism?

Blogger Resident Moron™ April 24, 2017 2:41 AM  

I think the observation that religious pluralism was only ever a truce between the RCC and protestants bears some merit.

However problematic that truce has become, I'm not sure resuming hostilities is going to be less so.

That said, I see the short term advantage and concede it may be unavoidable.

Anonymous Sensei April 24, 2017 2:42 AM  

Vox, re: the periscope talking about IQ, asking you to fill in the gaps may be tiresome, but I'd be interested to know more about, or at least to get some recommended reading regarding, your conception of the Church and the West and what the legitimate definition of Christendom is.

I say this as someone who was taught that there is no Christendom now that Europe is secularized and that there never should have been, as it was an unholy alliance of secular power politics and spiritual authority which contributed to the death of the Church in Europe by costing the Church all its credibility in the face of encroaching Enlightenment thought.

I have noticed that this is a confusing topic for Americans, since from the beginning America's national identity involved the use of Enlightenment ideas about secular governance so it's tough for us to conceive of a legitimate religious government. So I'm curious whether living in Italy has been instrumental in the degree to which Vox conflates Christianity and the West. (It seems as though it would have to)

Anonymous Icicle April 24, 2017 2:44 AM  

Would he agree that was wise?

Have you heard of the Thirty Years' War?

Anonymous VFM #6306 April 24, 2017 2:47 AM  

Religious freedom is a naturally occuring problem, not a right that should be enforced. Now it isn't solved by a state church, either, but that is a separate problem.

The only true way is the narrow way, and no state is going to keep people on it, but if it can at least shove out some of the clutter that will be one less distraction to waywardness.

It is certainly vastly preferred to the licentious pagan state.

Rome, after all, had religious liberty AND a persecuted Church.

Anonymous Alice De Goon April 24, 2017 2:48 AM  

@3 Vox, how do modern Europeans feel about Christianity? As an outsider, to me, they seem to be rather ambivalent towards their Christian past.

Europeans think of Christianity as the buzz-cutted, hard-ass birth Dad who got booted out of the house once Mom found a richer sugar Daddy (called Technologically Driven Prosperity. Not a snappy name, but the dude has plenty of nice toys.) Of course, Mom and the Sugar Daddy are rapidly running out of cash, thanks to their hedonistic lifestyles and their big donations to the Church of Socialism. Europe's hoping that, after she's forced to move back in with Birth Dad, he'll let her keep her Danger hair, her nose ring, and her ethnically-ambiguous boyfriend. If he doesn't, Europe will hold her breath until her face turns as blue as her tresses.

Anonymous VFM #6306 April 24, 2017 2:58 AM  

Catholics aren't going to outlaw Protestants. They can't even outlaw pagans from sitting in the Cathedra Romana.

That's the problem: of the two options, the bigger threat to Christian faith is too much religious freedom, not too little.

Anonymous Pepin April 24, 2017 3:00 AM  

The West is the only place that has ever had absolute religious freedom, and the West is suffering because of it.

Blogger Martin April 24, 2017 3:21 AM  

Well said in the end there. However, Im not sure Putin will be successful in supressing a sect that stuck to their pacifism and refused military service in the USSR.

Blogger Shane Sullivan April 24, 2017 3:32 AM  

@13 Ha! Excellent analogy. It's certainly a problem as to which path Europe is to take in the future. There are many on the alt-right that wish to return to paganism. Maybe Spengler was right, that ultimately when a society becomes reason based, it begins to decline regardless of their original faith.

Blogger Artisanal Toad April 24, 2017 3:34 AM  

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

Given the history behind it and the fact that the US was set up as a Christian nation, (from our perspective now) it could have been worded better but everyone back then knew it didn't apply to anything other than Christianity.

It's easy to think of it as a truce in the RCC v Prot argument, but plenty of people were persecuted and killed in the fight over Episcopal or Presbyterian rule of the protestant churches in England and Scotland. Quite a few of the people fleeing the persecution came to the US. The point of the free exercise clause was to keep religion from being politicized within a Christian nation that already had multiple sects and creeds.

As such, the Jehovah's Witnesses would probably pass muster but Seventh Day Adventists would have had problems and Buddhists, Mormons, Muslims and Satanists would all be banned. Jews would have been (and were) tolerated due to the instruction in the Bible concerning Jews. The real religion of modern times would justifiably be banned:

Secular Humanism with it's core beliefs of Evolution and Feminism, which is a pagan religion.

"There is no legitimate moral, legal, or philosophical reason that every nation in Christendom should not proceed to ban all non-Christian religions as readily as atheist regimes banned Christianity.

We can certainly go further than that and positively state that there exists a specific reason to ban all non-Christian religions. Our system of law is based on the English Common Law, which began when Alfred the Great codified the Law of England by restating the Law of Moses (with some material from the New Testament) as the Law of England.

The rights we recognize come from the Bible. The right to life is derived from the command not to murder. The right to property is derived from the command not to steal. Our notions of morality and even the structure of our government are derived (more or less) from the Bible.

Our culture (the root word of culture is cult) has at it's foundation a common foundation of religious belief and it is to that standard of morality that we owe a duty to obey not only to the State but to God. As John Adams stated:

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Fisher Ames, who was responsible for the final wording of the 1st Amendment, said:

"[Why] should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples captivating and noble. The reverence for the Sacred Book that is thus early impressed lasts long; and probably if not impressed in infancy, never takes firm hold of the mind."

The idea that the US was not specifically set up as a Christian nation is the result of the word "religion" being redefined to include pagan beliefs that fall outside Christianity and eventually redefined to mean every sort of belief, even no belief.

Those who do not adhere to Christianity do not have the capacity to properly take part in our culture.

Anonymous trev006 April 24, 2017 3:36 AM  

Didn't take twenty comments for at least two people to "seriously" address Catholics banning Protestant churches, despite the main post explicitly saying only non-Christian religions would be banned. It's like some people insist on dividing Christianity, either as part of misdirected intellectual effort or simple trolling.

Of course, given that the most religious American states can't ban men from the women's washroom without a huge clash of cultures, I'm not sanguine about the idea. But you can get lots of people on board by banning a particularly threatening ideological religion that doesn't reciprocate such freedom in most of the world.

Anonymous Bz April 24, 2017 3:41 AM  

Ban ban ban
Ban ban Islam.

Anonymous Sharrukin April 24, 2017 3:43 AM  

Faith is a part of society and helps to forge a common vision and a common destiny. Without that unifying element, that vision, that destiny fades.

It isn't just religion either. We have the UFO cults, militant atheism, Sasquatch, recovered memory, mysticism, crystals, and Wicca and much more.

People need to believe in something and as Christianity has faded from the public square other faiths and beliefs have taken its place.

The left attacks faith and the family structure because they know it is an alternate power structure that they cannot easily control.

The Russians are right on this.

Blogger Alexandros April 24, 2017 3:53 AM  

Herb Rouche wrote:
What if the most powerful Christian denomination, Catholicism (1 Billion+ strong) reverted to outlawing protestant denominations in Christian countries? Would he agree that was wise? What if every form of Christianity was outlawed except for Catholicism?


thingsCatholicsWillNeverDo.txt

Have you been paying attention to modern Roman Catholics? They'll commit suicide via "new american" before they'll ever do something good like that fiction you suggest. Hope springs eternal though; I'd rather they man the heck up and execute me and mine than continue this descent into degeneracy they've spared no effort in pursuing. There is something viscerally unnerving about watching your once proud rival self-destruct in such a sad, degenerate way.

Blogger Baldwin IV April 24, 2017 3:54 AM  

@7:
"What if the most powerful Christian denomination, Catholicism (1 Billion+ strong) reverted to outlawing protestant denominations in Christian countries? Would he agree that was wise? What if every form of Christianity was outlawed except for Catholicism?"
Any Catholic country that decides to outlaw Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy is free to do so, as long as they understand that Protestant countries (The United States included) also have the right and, if they possess any common sense, should ban Catholicism as well.

Blogger Cail Corishev April 24, 2017 3:59 AM  

So much word. It's especially ridiculous to hear Catholics preaching the importance of religious liberty, when the idea (as they push it) is a condemned heresy.

The Church has always taught that we're supposed to be free to practice the true faith, but not that false religions have any rights. Error has no rights. In practice, the Church has normally said states shouldn't force people to convert or worship correctly, but that's where their freedom ends; no one has a right to worship or proselytize for a false religion, and a state doesn't have to allow them to.

The way they present it now -- that every religion has an equal right to be practiced -- goes much further into heresy, not to mention naive stupidity. They're hoping that if we agree never to ban false religions, they'll never try to ban ours where they're dominant, which is a vain hope.

Yes, that means Catholic or Orthodox or Protestant nations could end up banning each other's public worship along with non-Christian types. That would be preferable to Christian nations playing along with this New Age Churchian "all faiths have value and must be respected" garbage.

Anonymous VFM #6306 April 24, 2017 4:01 AM  

Banning islam, mormonism, scientology and JW would result in...peace, Deseret, Clear and the end of days (1914-style), respectively.

Sounds good. Let's do it.

Blogger Happy LP9 April 24, 2017 4:11 AM  

All Alpha Putin wants is Russia for Russians via Russian Orthodox Faith per its culture. Like Le Pen; France for the French.

He has a family and wants a godly future for himself and his nation.

P-y riot is atheistic, evil feminists.

Putin is done with islam but seem to be less hostile to the LGBT crowd as long as they are not forcing homosexuality upon natives Russians.

Vlad in 1999, 2000 told the pple to start making more little Russians, he turned around a demographic decline, today there are many beautiful, young, godly, smart Russians fulfilling God's will in their private lives to better their communities.

I ask the Lord to help us all.

Blogger VD April 24, 2017 4:24 AM  

What if the most powerful Christian denomination, Catholicism (1 Billion+ strong) reverted to outlawing protestant denominations in Christian countries?

Better that than Islam, atheism, and Judaism banning it, as is already the case in countries where those religions have the power.

The world is worth a mass.

Blogger Eric Steiger April 24, 2017 4:31 AM  

U nfortunately, historical patterns tend to show that cracking down on a religious sect usually has the opposite effect to the one intended, unless they're willing to go all the way and wipe them from the face of the eEarth. And with modern communications being what they. are, that would a PR disaster.

Blogger T-Rav April 24, 2017 4:44 AM  

I'm confused as to why. I don't mind if Russia wants to reinforce Orthodoxy, but I don't get why they're claiming that Jehovah's Witnesses are such a threat to social order that they should be banned. I've met a few, and they seem annoying at worst.

Blogger Fenris Wulf April 24, 2017 4:53 AM  

Show me a state religion that has the power to compel children to undergo indoctrination for six hours a day, five days a week, from age 6 to 18, under threat of imprisonment, at taxpayer expense, costing $620 billion dollars per year.

The Establishment Clause is a dead letter. Meanwhile, the "civil libertarians" bravely protect us from the menace of public Nativity scenes.

Blogger weka April 24, 2017 4:53 AM  

The left have banned, or deplatformed, free speech. They have bought in heresy trials (hate speech and islamophobia).

They deserve the whirlwind. I used to argue for free speech and free discussion. No longer. Return to the church or go beyond the pale.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch April 24, 2017 4:56 AM  

I agree with this post 100 percent.

Blogger VD April 24, 2017 4:56 AM  

I'm confused as to why.

Test case. If Jehovah's Witnesses can be successfully banned, other religious groups can be too. If you're smart, you don't start with the most difficult challenge, but work your way up to it.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener April 24, 2017 5:00 AM  

The Founders intended to protect the sects of Christianity that existed at the time and possibly Judaism as well. Not Islam, Mormonism, Hinduism, or atheism. They excluded those people from coming here via immigration laws.

But hey, the Constitution is a living document and that means a federal judge in Alaska can interpret it to mean that the First Amendment requires confession of belief in Christ, weekly church service attendance, and on-the-spot execution of heretics. Thanks leftists!

Blogger Sherwood family April 24, 2017 5:05 AM  

Russians have been trying get rid of the JWs since Soviet times. Even under Communism there were small groups of them. You can make them illegal but even if you jail all of them you won't get rid of them. Organizations like the JW's thrive on persecution.

Blogger Sherwood family April 24, 2017 5:14 AM  

The problem the Russians have with JWs is 1) they are against service in the armed forces 2) the organization's headquarters are in the U.S. 3) they are not Orthodox. That pretty much sums it up.

Anonymous Hitler April 24, 2017 5:16 AM  

I don't suppose there are any other religious groups that pose a similar threat to the Russian people, their security, and public order, are there?

You only had to listen.

Blogger Benjamin Kraft April 24, 2017 5:17 AM  

@27. Eric, that depends on the religion we're talking about. Most of the modern ones can be quickly and smoothly pressured out of existence with a minimum of violence. Those few which cannot (Islam, etc.) are going to utilize violence whether they're banned or not, so it's best to just annihilate them now and get it over with.

Pretty much all of the overtly sociopathic religions have been broadly squashed, and those few that have resurged ought to be squashed again ASAP without even thinking twice about it.

@28. T-Rav, it's because they're a Christian Heresy. Those are pretty much always worse than regular cults. It's kind of the same principal as the best lies being almost entirely true.

For other examples of Christian Heresies, take a gander at Islam (Muhammad quite literally ripped off what he had heard and gathered by word of mouth from early Christianity and then crammed all his own refuse on top of it) and Socialism/Communism (Let's make sure everyone is taken care of, just like the early Christians except, you know, let's excise that pesky "God" fellow).

Hopefully this will enlighten you as to why even the seemingly benign heresies are always innately malignant in the long run.

Blogger Benjamin Kraft April 24, 2017 5:25 AM  

To expound on @37., really, everything must go, so you get rid of the apparently minor stuff first. Once you've excised the early stage tumours, that's when you move on to the late stage ones.

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable April 24, 2017 5:35 AM  

What if every form of Christianity was outlawed except for Catholicism?

When Christianity began, Judaism was in a similar position with respect to this new "sect". So first century Christians were persecuted from the very beginning, and the faith prospered. A calcified "state church" wouldn't do any better against us. Persecution would get rid of churchianity, hypocrisy, and all manner of other things within Protestantism. I say go for it!

Anonymous zebedee April 24, 2017 5:38 AM  

With respect to Russia's Muslim minority, it must be noted that they're Russian because of conquest, not invasion. So the answer to that issue is clear. They have to go back - the Russians that is.

Anonymous anarch April 24, 2017 5:48 AM  

I don't suppose there are any other religious groups that pose a similar threat to the Russian people, their security, and public order, are there?

Let's see: One one hand Putin has repeatedly stressed that the Russian Federation is a multicultural country and his government has presided over mass immigration from the Central Asian -stans and demographic trends don't exactly favour ethnic Russians.

On the other the Russian state apparatus regularly has suppressed New Religious Movements, even during the darkest days of Jelzin because Russians still need to fill that Socialism-shaped hole in their hearts and the Orthodox Church isn't exactly in the shape to do just that.

The latter seems a bit likelier than a bunch of WN superstate crusader LARP fantasies.

Blogger Benjamin Kraft April 24, 2017 5:53 AM  

@40. Ahh, but why were they up in that region of the world in the first place? Awfully convenient how you ignored that. They (moslems) have to go back, all right, but not to Russia.

Immigration is still invasion, even if other conquest happened afterward.

Blogger VD April 24, 2017 5:54 AM  

I don't think persecution is even necessary, in most cases. Simply not letting the local minority impose its will on the local majority because religious freedom will, in most meaningful circumstances, suffice.

Blogger Benjamin Kraft April 24, 2017 5:55 AM  

@41. anarch (pfft), or maybe instead of talking out of your posterior you could, I don't know, look up what Putin's actually said on the matter?

Blogger Benjamin Kraft April 24, 2017 5:58 AM  

I'm getting a feeling I should stop commenting on low sleep. Later.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener April 24, 2017 6:05 AM  

"With respect to Russia's Muslim minority, it must be noted that they're Russian because of conquest, not invasion."

The entire region is muslim only because of conquest. Islam has to go back to Mecca.

Blogger Beau April 24, 2017 6:10 AM  

Don't be fooled by the appeal to imaginary fears for Protestants.

One need only ask the survivors of the Salvation Army in Russia if these fears are indeed groundless.

Or better yet, Daniel Poysti, a notorious Russian bible smuggler told me Russian believers met in the forest to worship so they would be away from prying eyes and could hear the authorities coming for them. He elaborated that the worship service had concentric rings: the outermost was young men, the next inner young women, the next old men, the next old women, the children in the center with the preacher. When I asked Daniel why was this he replied, "So that when the police with the clubs get to the children they are already tired." Ask these Russian protestants about their imaginary fears.

Blogger red clock April 24, 2017 6:10 AM  

I don't like Putin, but if this ends with Russia banning/cracking down on mosques and Islam, I will become a fan.

Blogger ZhukovG April 24, 2017 6:15 AM  

The JW cult is in particular, anti-Nationalist. From the position of any Nationalist this makes them all agents of a hostile foreign power.

This is also why restrictions have been placed on Evangelical missionaries who have at times, knowingly or not, acted on behalf of groups seeking to undermine the Russian Federation.

Anonymous Icicle April 24, 2017 6:18 AM  

The JW cult is in particular, anti-Nationalist.

Bahá'í is as well.

Blogger Lovekraft April 24, 2017 6:25 AM  

Notice the weighted term "absurdly" broad definition of religion.

Hey, you know what's absurd? Showing compassion and tolerance towards jihad. That's an entirely different universe of absurd.

Blogger Resident Moron™ April 24, 2017 6:25 AM  

trev006 wrote:Didn't take twenty comments for at least two people to "seriously" address Catholics banning Protestant churches, despite the main post explicitly saying only non-Christian religions would be banned. ...

Some of us have been around, and observing, a while.

There's an old saying in legal matters: hard cases make bad laws.

Bad laws are always introduced to deal with the least sympathetic cases. They're always introduced as "necessary" to deal with some extreme behaviour.

Maybe it is true, too. I don't pretend to have all the answers.

But it is also true that they always get extended to deal with a wider group of people and behaviours, after they're introduced.

That's just a plain fact of history.

Blogger Koanic April 24, 2017 6:32 AM  

All Christians should uphold the holy writ of Judeo Christ, who enshrined the principle of freedom of religion in the Declaration of Independence.

This abrogated the prior antiquated and intolerant doctrine of Jehovah, whose idea of separation of church and state was splitting the earth open and swallowing Woodstock.

Blogger Sherwood family April 24, 2017 6:35 AM  

"Simply not letting the local minority impose its will on the local majority because religious freedom will, in most meaningful circumstances, suffice."

I'm not sure that the JWs ever had any way to impose their will on the local majority in Russia. They are a small group with very little political clout there.

Blogger Some Dude April 24, 2017 6:35 AM  

Religious freedom is a complicated thing. You have mormons, orthodox, hindus and buddhists and others of religions that are generally not aggressive.

Then you have those from the MENA basin - islam and judaism being the most extreme and their offshoots - wahabi islam, salfism and of course neoconservatism/Zionism.

Complicated subject.

As always the answer is: round up and deport all the jews and watch everything be better.

Blogger Some Dude April 24, 2017 6:38 AM  

I genuinely think all the worlds problems would be solved if there was a way to deal with the Jewish Question.

No more stupid wars, no more wall street economic surplus extraction, no more brainwashing, no more open borders, no more refugees of stupid wars, no more corrupt venal government toadies and judges.

I literally imagine rainbows and blue skies if asked to think about a world without high IQ psychopaths. Really, I do. Its 'simplistic' but very complicated at the same time.

Blogger Some Dude April 24, 2017 6:40 AM  

I wish I was more 'sophisticated'. But essentially Hitler was right about the problem. Although his solution, while understandable, was a bit out of bounds. That being said, 30 years of peace and prosperity followed after the stables were cleaned out.

Blogger VD April 24, 2017 6:40 AM  

Ask these Russian protestants about their imaginary fears.

Soviets != Russians. And Orthodox are not atheists.

This is not an action taking place in a vacuum. Putin has targeted NGOs and gay propagandists as well. It is a eucivilizational campaign and thereby merits support.

I'm not sure that the JWs ever had any way to impose their will on the local majority in Russia. They are a small group with very little political clout there.

Look up. That thing whooshing over your head is the point. What part of "test case" did you find hard to understand? No one is going to defend the JWs. So, the precedent can be much more easily set.

Blogger praetorian April 24, 2017 6:43 AM  

and that means trampling the consciences of those who fall victim to government caprice.

Tell me more about this government caprice and your heretofore well coclealed concerns regarding it.

Because I would hate to think that your heretofore well concealed concerns regarding government caprice are disingenuous.

Blogger VD April 24, 2017 6:47 AM  

I wish I was more 'sophisticated'. But essentially Hitler was right about the problem.

Being right about one specific problem doesn't make one generally correct, much less a role model. He was correct about the German Jews being observably inimical to German society. It was his duty to lead Germany into war against global Jewry after the latter publicly declared war on Germany in 1933.

But he went about it all wrong due to badly overestimating his capabilities. You would do well to recall the Endloesung was not a part of his original plan, but was a murderous act of vengeance and despair on the part of a man who knew he was already beaten.

But this is not a discussion of Germany 70 years ago, it is a discussion of Russia today. So drop it, everyone.

Anonymous zebedee April 24, 2017 6:56 AM  

@46 "The entire region is muslim only because of conquest. Islam has to go back to Mecca."

The trite answer to that is that the whole of the Americas is only Christian because of conquest. The Muslims were well-established in the Northern Caucasus and some areas of Southern Russia long before the Russians arrived there. Areas like Dagestan and Chechnya have given the Russians nothing but grief ever since the became involved there. Better to let the natives have them and build a big beautiful wall.

Blogger Sherwood family April 24, 2017 7:02 AM  

I get "test case". But I do not think the larger objective is going to be Muslims. Too many of them there for too long. Russia is still, for better or worse, a multiethnic/multiconfessional empire. Short of breaking it up even further, along ethnic or religious lines, it isn't going to happen. And Putin is not going to push things toward further dissolution. And if it isn't Muslims who is it?

Blogger Resident Moron™ April 24, 2017 7:07 AM  

"And if it isn't Muslims who is it?"

That's not how politics works.

He may or may not be able to apply the precedent to every non-Orthodox sect.

He may or may not intend to do so.

But when he (A) intends to, and (B) is able to, he now has the legal right to do so.

Blogger Lazarus April 24, 2017 7:09 AM  

In February, a Chabad Rabbi was expelled as a threat to national security. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Also from the related story:

Behind the expulsion of Edelkopf and the other rabbis, Gorin added, is an attempt by the state to limit the number of foreign clerics living in Russia – an effort that has led to expulsions not only of rabbis but also of imams and Protestant priests.

The U.S. should do the same, but can't because of an obstructionist judiciary.

Blogger Gaiseric April 24, 2017 7:16 AM  

Koanic wrote:All Christians should uphold the holy writ of Judeo Christ, who enshrined the principle of freedom of religion in the Declaration of Independence.

This abrogated the prior antiquated and intolerant doctrine of Jehovah, whose idea of separation of church and state was splitting the earth open and swallowing Woodstock.

See, I get what you're trying to do here, but it doesn't really work because you have to ignore the fact that many of the colonies were specifically set up as the colonists were trying to do exactly what VD is saying that they should have done: go somewhere where they could set up their own society based on their own religion and culture. If you're trying to suggest that religious freedom has no place in America, then you're suggesting that there's no such thing as America. Which was, of course, the pre-Constitutional intent; each state is a state unto itself, and they're only loosely bound into confederation with little in the way of federal government at all.

Of course, religious freedom can be distorted beyond it's original intent. America was founded by Protestant Anglo-Saxons with a few Low Germans and Dutch thrown in, and a handful of Catholics, which were generally mistrusted and unwelcome.

Blogger tuberman April 24, 2017 7:17 AM  

40. zebedee

What countries were Islam by the middle of Muhammad's life? All the rest are Islam conquests.

They have to go back, to at least where they were at the end of Muhammad's life. Maybe further back, back before Islam existed.

Anonymous Grayman April 24, 2017 7:20 AM  

Slightly OT but relevant:

The left really does want a religious race war.

http://mainestategop.blogspot.com/2017/04/anti-racist-marxist-steet-thugsdont.html?m=1

TLDR: Antifa signs in Maine saying don't date or hire whites.

Blogger American Spartan April 24, 2017 7:31 AM  

Just saying that if your group knocks on doors at 7 AM and walk up people, do not be shocked when your group is outlawed.

Blogger tuberman April 24, 2017 7:31 AM  

67. Grayman

Signs like those in Maine??! Total absurdity, and complete desperation....Ha.

Anonymous Stephen King April 24, 2017 7:33 AM  

That's one scary story about Maine.

Blogger praetorian April 24, 2017 7:38 AM  

I'm not sure that the JWs ever had any way to impose their will on the local majority in Russia. They are a small group with very little political clout there.

All for want of an 'e'...

Blogger tuberman April 24, 2017 7:39 AM  

70. Stephen King

The Antifa should all be put into "The Long Walk" through Maine.

Anonymous Athor Pel April 24, 2017 7:52 AM  

Many political offices used to require oaths of Christian faith in America. "Religious Freedom" or the related form, separation of church and state has been used to get Christ-rejecting Jews and atheists into political office.

It's a tool of entryism.

Anonymous BLUME April 24, 2017 7:56 AM  

HERB we did that already. It results in distinct religious states. One state, one religion.

Blogger Koanic April 24, 2017 7:56 AM  

If you're trying to suggest that religious freedom has no place in America,

#1 I don't care about muh Constitooshun or muh Union America. I am from Texas, and joining was a bad idea.

#2 It is not up to Man to decide whether there should be religious liberty. God decides whether to hold us collectively responsible for our neighbors' sins. Anyone who actually reads the Old Testament will be terrified of allowing wickedness for which he could possibly be held responsible. I'm sure the Angel of Death will stop to peruse with great amusement whatever masterpiece of political theory you've posted on your door lintel.

There is a time for peace and a time for war, a time to settle and a time to leave, and both are up to God.

Blogger ZhukovG April 24, 2017 8:08 AM  

While Russia is a multi-national empire. It is overwhelmingly ethnic Russian (80%). The largest minority is Tatar at approximately 4%.

Most Muslims in Russia are at least pacified if not overtly loyal to Moscow. Tatars in particular fall into the later category and were instrumental in calming the fears of Crimean Tatars during Crimea's return home. Note also that in Syria, Russia has deployed a special forces unit made up of Chechens.

The actions of the Russian government are defensive in nature. Russia appears to be the one Nation-State where Christianity(Orthodox) is given primacy in society and which possesses BOTH the power and will to resist Globalist forces.

While Russia stands the Globalists will expend resources against her. Resources they will not have to use against the Alt-Right.

Anonymous Azimus April 24, 2017 8:11 AM  

If there's a way to slice this so that "freedom of religion" means "freedom of Christian religion", that would be the health of the people. I think of the historical example of England in the age of Cromwell - one that should at least have some weight with the Ilk. It's been a few years since I read his biography, but Cromwell fought and won a lot of battles against the Protestant Scots, who were basically enticed to joining the Jacobite cause in bloody revolution because of frustrations stemming from Anglican/Presbyterian squabbling about what should be in the Common Book of Prayer, or if there should be one at all, etc. People WILL fight at the boundaries of liberty for more (or less) liberty, so it seems to me best to draw the line where, if fighting/killing is necessary, it is being done where the fellow whose head you're blowing off doesn't call on the same Name of Christ as you do. That, I believe, was the Framer's intent, and it can certainly be argued that the unity of the Church is the Church's responsibility, not the state's...

Blogger Wynn Lloyd April 24, 2017 8:15 AM  

There are traditional Catholics. We're treated the same way the alt-right is treated by neo-cons, though.

The neo-Catholics have failed, though. They relied on papolatry and ultramontanism to defend the new mass, but now because of Francis they look like idiots.

Protestants are safe for centuries if not pernanently, since serious, logical, sincere Catholics are having to fight our own bishops in America.

Blogger tuberman April 24, 2017 8:18 AM  

75. Koanic

These are still "big tent days" to call people slowly over to the 16 points. Someday things will split, but too early is just wrong, as it stinks of survivalist mentality.

Survivalists do not care about Western Civilization and they USE Christianity as an excuse for forming their cults. The division never stops with such prophets, until it gets down to just them and their robot followers, against the world.

Again, this is still a "Big Tent" place here inviting people to read and consider the 16 points as opposed to the alternatives. My take at least.

Anonymous Opus April 24, 2017 8:34 AM  

Thomas Hobbes was of the view that religion was a matter for the mandate of The Prince. I once mentioned this to a casual acquaintance who was banging on about religious freedom (as if it were carved in stone) and it was clearly a concept that had never occurred to him. Locke - often seen as opposing Hobbes, because of his stand for toleration - did not even consider that Roman Catholics deserved tolerance. I tend to side with both Hobbes and Locke.

Blogger dc.sunsets April 24, 2017 8:38 AM  

"Freedom of (fill in blank)" is like so many other things: When first implemented, in small measure, it's a positive. But once it obtains a constituency and, more importantly, a crowd of people whose livelihood becomes mixed with serving that constituency, it obtains a life of its own and then exhibits both the growth and survival attributes of a living thing.

A public parasite is created.

Our Borrow-to-Spend, fantasy of unlimited resources ("not to worry, the Fed will keep interest rates so low that there is literally now limit to how much we can borrow") is turning every single ostensible good "produced" by our political system into a cancer, and each single program, from Refugee Resettlement Agencies to the EPA to DOE to Dept. of State to HHS to DOL to Dept of Treasury...every one of them has turned into its own metastatic tumor, able to leech (seemingly) unlimited resources from the Central Government.

We don't even need to pay (taxes) for our own destruction. Paying for unlimited quantities of poison can be put on the National Mastercard.

A fantasy of Borrow-to-Spend Unlimited Resources is truly a nightmare of Unlimited Scope.

Blogger Sherwood family April 24, 2017 8:41 AM  

ZhukovG, you are correct. However, if Putin were to try to "ban" Islam he would find himself in a difficult situation. Moscow is the city with the largest Muslim population in Europe. I am sure Putin is very well aware of that.

Blogger Cail Corishev April 24, 2017 8:55 AM  

I don't think persecution is even necessary, in most cases.

Right. You can allow people to believe what they want to believe, without letting them promote it or proselytize for it. You want to be Muslim at home? Fine, you won't be dragged out and persecuted for it or forced to attend Mass on Sunday. But you don't get exceptions to the law to accommodate your religion, you don't get tax breaks, you don't get state acknowledgement of your holidays, you don't get to try to convert people to Islam, and the state may restrict public displays like manner of dress or the building of mosques. If you can live with all that, no one will molest you; if you can't, find a Muslim nation to live in. I hear there are dozens.

Anonymous Faceless April 24, 2017 9:12 AM  

I understand Mr. Putin's move, and why he must do it, but I am worried about some of the American Baptist churches that are planted in Russia. There's a quote from an old Communist leader who said the American Baptists were second down the list from JWs for how much they were hated by those in authority over there.

My hope, having spoken with some of these Russian Baptists, is that the Russian Orthodox church does a better job of making sure they have truly Christian people in their churches - that they make a point of ensuring that their members understand and profess the Lordship of Jesus Christ - that they aren't Orthodox like Paulie Walnuts was a Catholic. Ethnic identity is a really strong call for a reason to join an Orthodox church, but they need to also be confessing Christians. Perhaps Putin can shore up some of their borders and then they can ensure they are believers filling the pews and not just bodies.

Blogger Sheila4g April 24, 2017 9:16 AM  

As Vox said, simply not allowing any particular religious minority to impose its views and beliefs on the rest of the country should be sufficient. While there will be serious arguments about what, specifically, constitutes a branch of Christian faith, I don't see how declaring whatever rump of America survives a generally Christian nation equals a ban on religious freedom of belief or conscience, or even private practice. As others noted, the Founders and all laws for almost 200 years banned Mohammedans and Hindus and anyone who was neither Christian nor Jew from immigrating, so that alone would solve a large portion of the problem. If they aren't allowed to build public worship centers or "community centers" {a favorite Mohammedan tactic, along with cemeteries - opposition to Farmersville Muslim Cemetery and then Farmersville Approves Muslim Cemetery, then they can worship privately in small groups. No impact on the local community, no purchase of land to be part of the Umma, etc. Some other legal tactic could easily be used to ban the black-hat 18th century Jews from taking over entire communities and using public monies and facilities as privately-run Jewish services {better yet, send them all home to Israel}. After all the Hindus and assorted others go back, it should be a relatively simple matter.

Anonymous The OASF April 24, 2017 9:25 AM  

One big catch here is that America's state-sponsored, pagan religion of evolutionism will have to be the first to go.

Good luck with that.

Anonymous Azimus April 24, 2017 9:35 AM  

84. Faceless April 24, 2017 9:12 AM
I understand Mr. Putin's move, and why he must do it, but I am worried about some of the American Baptist churches that are planted in Russia.


I could swear that it was on this very blog within the last few weeks we were discussing the concept of "be careful what powers you give the state, in case those powers are used against you."

This must be a pretty blindingly obvious example of that?

Blogger bosscauser April 24, 2017 9:36 AM  

Next thing you know they'll Ban global warming!
Might draw the line on Rastraferians though. We know how sensitive Russians are to racism...(makes as much sense as banning any other idea, right?)

Gab.ai/GaryCauser

Anonymous Anonymous April 24, 2017 9:42 AM  

Baptists are accepted and respected within Russian society.

Anonymous Davyyd April 24, 2017 9:48 AM  

@85 Too late. Look up Kiryas Joel, NY they have their own tax supported school district.

Blogger Salt April 24, 2017 9:50 AM  

@83 Quite so. As they've no problem being ass up in the street, of what need is there for mosques? Want mosque? Go home.

Blogger VFM #7634 April 24, 2017 9:50 AM  

"Religious freedom is a bogus and ill-considered pseudoright. In practice, it has been turned into a weapon that is almost solely used against Christianity across the West, and therefore it has to be abandoned."

VD, that has always been the case, at least since Julian the Apostate.

Blogger seeingsights April 24, 2017 9:52 AM  

Vox's 16 points differs from classical liberalism on trade and immigration. I propose two more differences: that the state may restrict religion, and that there be an official language.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus April 24, 2017 10:00 AM  

The USA needs to do the same. It's time to suppress dangerous foreign cults like Islam, Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodoxy.

Anonymous Red Cabbage April 24, 2017 10:01 AM  

Personally I wish I lived in a place where one Christian church reigned supreme and nobody argued much about doctrine. The endless schisms of Protestantism are causing our cultural collapse. If you want to be gay and wear miniskirts (or whatever) and the preacher won't allow it, you just go off and start a new church.

I expect when the dust settles, the USA will either be one religion or none. Wish I could fast-forward a few centuries and see it.

Oh, and if I had to pick between being Orthodox or being Jehovah's Witness, it would be Orthodox every time. I got on the JW "visit" circuit once and those people just got creepier the more I talked to them.

Blogger DJ | AMDG April 24, 2017 10:01 AM  

I think you're right. The concept was uniquely American in origin and was truly about religious freedom among Protestants. I don't believe it was even extended to Catholics. It certainly wasn't to Jews. Presbyterians, Anglicans and Methodists primarily made up the founding fathers. Dutch Calvinists? Menonites? I think that was it.

Blogger szopen April 24, 2017 10:07 AM  

DJ | AMDG wrote:I think you're right. The concept was uniquely American in origin and was truly about religious freedom among Protestants.

You are completely wrong. For starters, read about "Warsaw confederation" 1573. In my country "religious freedom" was a reality century before Locke and before first settlers even have arrived to America.

Blogger Beau April 24, 2017 10:12 AM  

Soviets != Russians. And Orthodox are not atheists.

The Orthodox helped Putin draft a 1997 law which led to the expulsion of the Salvation Army from Moscow. From a December 8, 2000 article,

The status in Moscow of the worldwide Protestant organization, known for its benevolence work, is based on a controversial 1997 religion law that established the Russian Orthodox Church as the country's main religion. The drafters of the law, which included the Orthodox Church, said the aim was to protect against dangerous sects, but critics charge that it discriminates against new groups and foreign organizations.

The Orthodox haven't changed. They were behind this second expulsion. I wonder how they'll treat the Baptists after they've done with the JWs.

OpenID anonymos-coward April 24, 2017 10:16 AM  

Faceless wrote:I understand Mr. Putin's move, and why he must do it, but I am worried about some of the American Baptist churches that are planted in Russia.

They have to go back.

bosscauser wrote:Next thing you know they'll Ban global warming!

You can't ban something that doesn't exist.

OpenID anonymos-coward April 24, 2017 10:19 AM  

Beau wrote:
The Orthodox helped Putin draft a 1997 law which led to the expulsion of the Salvation Army from Moscow.
...
I wonder how they'll treat the Baptists after they've done with the JWs.


And these, too, have to go back. (I'm tempted to say 'sorry', but who am I kidding, I am not.)

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus April 24, 2017 10:20 AM  

I wonder how they'll treat the Baptists after they've done with the JWs.

Probably not well, even though there is a long history and tradition of indigenous Russian Baptists that survived both the Czar and the Soviets. In other words, the Baptists aren't just some new American group who just came into the country the way the JWs have.

If the USA had a halfway decent government, we'd tell the Russians that the EOs in the USA will receive the exact same treatment - up to and including prison and expulsion of even native-born believers - that the Baptists receive in Russia.

Blogger Koanic April 24, 2017 10:20 AM  

Someday things will split

I grew up a loyal American and would happily return to my childhood ways if someone could point out to me exactly where America is, because I certainly cannot find it.

For starters, nobody has the sort of terrifyingly unfair weapon that would make Fedcoat officers wet themselves. The modern equivalent is Stinger missiles - simply unthinkable, a fundamental change in warfare.

Flyboys are sacred, after all. Everyone knows the skies belong to the State!

Anonymous smith April 24, 2017 10:27 AM  

You have to view this thru Putin's eyes - he see's the world based on what he himself can imagine. Like the current support for Nationalism growing around the world -- if you dig deep enough, you will see Putin at the end pulling the strings -- he has correctly seem the weakness in Western Christian philosophy and is masterfully exploits it; getting the organizations in the West to self destruct -- the self destructive is implicit in modern Christianity.

Blogger Resident Moron™ April 24, 2017 10:39 AM  

Titus,

That kind of bilateral reciprocity is exactly how matters should be handled between adults.

Especially things like immigration.

It helps to understand politics within and between nations when one recognizes that governments are unruly children.

Anonymous BBGKB April 24, 2017 10:45 AM  

Given the history behind it and the fact that the US was set up as a Christian nation, (from our perspective now) it could have been worded better but everyone back then knew it didn't apply to anything other than Christianity

No founding father would believe it could apply to moslems.

to Russia's Muslim minority, it must be noted that they're Russian because of conquest, not invasion. So the answer to that issue is clear. They have to go back - the Russians that is.

I would be happy with moslems staying in the same location, just 6 feet less altitude.

I'm not sure that the JWs ever had any way to impose their will on the local majority in Russia

People say the same thing about the JEWs in Russia & pretend the Bolsheviks were not

Survivalists do not care about Western Civilization

Survivalist do care about Western Civilization, they regret it's poisoning to death.

If you want to be gay and wear miniskirts (or whatever) and the preacher won't allow it, you just go off and start a new church

MCC already exists.

Anonymous Lawyer Guy April 24, 2017 10:47 AM  

But some minority religions own the government.

I live in a city that is 20% fundie Jews. No city Friday night events, library and city hall closed Sat, open Sun, but they allow the pool and gym to be open Sat, so that's nice.

They have three 20 million dollar walking plazas with grass and trees over the freeway, but can't afford to fix my sidewalk. No Christmas banners allowed on city lamp poles.

Blogger Rabbi B April 24, 2017 10:58 AM  

There is nothing commendable in suffering for what is false or in being punished for our faults. True religion as defined in the Scriptures, however, is only strengthened and more widely disseminated when the persecution of it increases.

Adherents to the truth have nothing to fear.

When they heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death. But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while.

Then he addressed the Sanhedrin: “Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered.

Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from G-d, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against G-d.” (cf. Acts 5)

In these treacherous times, we would also do well to take the words of the Messiah to heart:

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. (cf. Matthew 10)

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 24, 2017 11:06 AM  

anonymos-coward wrote:You can't ban something that doesn't exist.
Things that don't exist are the easiest things to ban.

Blogger VD April 24, 2017 11:08 AM  

I could swear that it was on this very blog within the last few weeks we were discussing the concept of "be careful what powers you give the state, in case those powers are used against you."

That's the point. They already are.

I understand Mr. Putin's move, and why he must do it, but I am worried about some of the American Baptist churches that are planted in Russia.

Considering how cucked Russell Moore and the Southern Baptists have shown themselves to be, just to give one example, I could not care less.

Anonymous johnc April 24, 2017 11:15 AM  

The various splits in Christianity are rapidly becoming an anachronism as now just about every Christian tree is wilting and bearing little fruit. And if a tree doesn't bear fruit, what does it accomplish except to exhaust the fertile soil? It will be cut down and thrown into the fire. As the persecution persists, the reasons for the various splits will become less compelling, and more Christians will seek unity under a single, fighting banner. The consolidation will probably form around the particular Church that demonstrates the best capability of wielding political power (probably Orthodox in Russia, maybe Catholic in Europe and as yet unknown in the US).

The State and the Church will become united again.

To that end, even the Enlightenment principles that undergird the US Constitution are an anachronism. It's a philosophy formed from circumstances of a different era. It seems its only purpose today is to weigh us down from taking the correct and necessary actions to safeguard civilization.

Blogger Leandro Novaes April 24, 2017 11:34 AM  

As an Ex-JW (no bad feelings, just don't trust organized religion anymore), I assure you that JWs are likely the worst possible challenge regarding being banned. The Nazists tried to. The USSR tried to. The Chinese tried to. The North Korean tried to. Stalin tried to. They are probably banned in around 20 countries around the world right now. They all have failed. Putin has a better chance at succeeding at conquering Afghanistan.

Blogger Sherwood family April 24, 2017 11:37 AM  

No they are not. They are tolerated at best.

Anonymous Scooter April 24, 2017 11:44 AM  

"True religion is only strengthened and more widely disseminated when the persecution of it increases."

Sometimes the martyrs is the seed of the church. Sometimes it just gets squashed.

What does it mean for a minority religious population to impose its will on the majority population? That could be stretched far enough to include support for anti-conversion laws in India, for example.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 24, 2017 11:46 AM  

The words "religious freedom" and "Russia" have nothing to do with each other. Nothing at all. Ask the Old Believers if you can find any now. Or ask the eastern Catholics; the Russians don't like them any more than they like Protestants.

Beau, don't make the mistake of projecting American tolerance onto Russian culture. That's a fail. It's completely different from us. 200 years of Mongol occupation followed by 500 years of more history will do that.

Anonymous Jack Amok April 24, 2017 11:48 AM  

The endless schisms of Protestantism are causing our cultural collapse.

Hardly. To the extent various churches are contributing to our cultural collapse, it's through convergence, the opposite of schism. If you wish to live under one church with one doctrine, you have to consider the possibility it will be a converged churchian one. Then what?

"Religious freedom" started out among Englishmen as a way to stop killing each other over doctrine. But as with so many of the better aspects of English culture, it doesn't work very well with non-Englishmen, especially the low-trust society Jews and Muslims.

Anonymous Gen. Kong April 24, 2017 11:57 AM  

Interesting how many even here are clutching to the last shreds of their Judeo-Christ action figure. Talmudic-Satanists are at least as bad as Musloids, and arguably far more destructive. Both have their homelands and need to go back.

Blogger ZhukovG April 24, 2017 12:08 PM  

@A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents: There are several million 'Old Believers' or 'Old Ritualists' still around. The number varies depending on who you ask, since like most schismatic groups they split into a large number of further denominations, few of which are on speaking terms.

Russians consider themselves, with good reason IMO, a nation under siege. They cannot afford even a hint of treason within the gates. If I were Putin, I would treat American Evangelical Missionaries the same as I would one of Soros' groups. Speaking as a Roman Catholic, I would be extra wary of Roman Catholics as should any Nation that does not want a bunch of 5th columnists in its midst.

You cannot afford to judge a group by its 'good' members, but by its 'worst' members and in respect to the authority those 'worst' members wield over the whole.

Blogger VFM #7634 April 24, 2017 12:08 PM  

Hardly. To the extent various churches are contributing to our cultural collapse, it's through convergence, the opposite of schism. If you wish to live under one church with one doctrine, you have to consider the possibility it will be a converged churchian one. Then what?

I'd say the biggest SJW victory by far was their converging the Catholic Church with Vatican II.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 24, 2017 12:19 PM  

It is not schism that is causing the collapse, it is a rejection of the very concept of doctrine.
In a way this is (like almost all our other pathologies) a natural fallout of the 30-years war and the colonization of America that happened shortly after. When doctrine is what separates you from your neighbor, and both churches stop teaching doctrine, it's lazy and stupid, and therefore inevitable, that many will blame, not the particular doctrine, but the mere fact of doctrine, for the split. Add in Atheists relentless hammering on Christian dogma (Hi, Mr. Rational!) as silly pointless nitpicking, the ecumenical mania of the 20th century and the abandonment of actual instruction in the Faith by virtually all Christian denominations, and the result is that many Christians now believe it is evil to insist on or sometimes even to believe in the Truth.
Which is why Church membership has become a social product instead of religion.

Better a John Calvin who insists on the utter depravity of humanity than a squishy modern "presbyterian" that knows the Jesus loves us.
Better an Alphonse Liguori than the current pope.
Better a John and Chales Wesley than a modern Methodist church that prays to the Mother Goddess.

Blogger Elizabeth April 24, 2017 12:32 PM  

@67 - Grayman:

Of all places ... Maine is the whitest state in the Union. In 2010, 94.5% More hispanics than blacks. Probably the only concentration of blacks is in New Somalia, otherwise known as Lewiston, Maine.

Anonymous DonaldR April 24, 2017 12:32 PM  

"Religious freedom is a bogus and ill-considered pseudoright. In practice, it has been turned into a weapon that is almost solely used against Christianity across the West"

First, it's ridiculous that the members of the majority religion in the West and the U.S. always seem to make themselves into the victim.

Second, "religious freedom" isn't so much a right (in the U.S.) as much as the freedom to exercise one's religious belief as well as being free from the people's government imposing a religioius litmus test or establishing a government support for particular sectarian practices.

"How serious and sincere can their beliefs be anyway, and how much do those beliefs merit respect, if non-Christians would rather live in Christendom among Christians than where Islam, Hinduism, Shinto, or Judaism are the state religion?"

Those who have sincere religious believes have no need for a government to support their beliefs in a material way in order for them to practice them perfectly well. Additionally, despite any sincerely held religious belief, there are many other factors that might lead one to live in a particular place, not the least of which is the presence of family, the economic model governing the country, the climate, the job market and much more.

It's concerning that someone who is apparently listened to by a tranche of people simply can't make sense nor has any clear understanding of human nature.

Blogger szopen April 24, 2017 12:38 PM  

Jack Amok wrote:
"Religious freedom" started out among Englishmen as a way to stop killing each other over doctrine. But as with so many of the better aspects of English culture, it doesn't work very well with non-Englishmen,

Just checking: you DO realise that"religious freedom" had not originated in England, that it was practised by many other European countries centuries BEFORE England?

Blogger Elizabeth April 24, 2017 12:40 PM  

Lawyer Guy wrote:But some minority religions own the government.

I live in a city that is 20% fundie Jews. No city Friday night events, library and city hall closed Sat, open Sun, but they allow the pool and gym to be open Sat, so that's nice.

They have three 20 million dollar walking plazas with grass and trees over the freeway, but can't afford to fix my sidewalk. No Christmas banners allowed on city lamp poles.


Out of curiousity, would you mind revealing what city that it? I am thinking somewhere in Rockland County, NY, or Lakewood, NJ.

Jews, fundie or not, are a minority, but a wealthy, united, organized and determined minority, so they get their way.

Anonymous Kevin April 24, 2017 12:40 PM  

In which was are Jehovah's Witnesses not Christian? They reject the Nicaea council. What's special about the firth Nicaea council? Nothing. If the state decides who is and who isn't Christian, then of course another state could decide those who reject the Council of Trent should be illegal (thats all protestants). If you faith cannot compete without state enforcement from upstarts Christians like JW's then your faith might be broken.

Anonymous DonaldR April 24, 2017 12:44 PM  

@VD
"You would do well to recall the Endloesung was not a part of his original plan, but was a murderous act of vengeance and despair on the part of a man who knew he was already beaten."

VD, do you think the world would have been a better place had Hitler and the Nazis had been successful in killing virtually all Jews in Europe, Russia and the near East?

Blogger tuberman April 24, 2017 12:48 PM  

Koran Burner

"Survivalist do care about Western Civilization...."

Nope, they.do.not. If their major focus is survivalist, then the pillars of Western Civilization are given nary a thought.

Example: Koanic's use of "muh Constitution." Used in the right context "muh Constitution" is completely apt, so used against someone from National Review or a Cruzbot for example. Yet used in an open context, "muh Constitution" suggests a deconstruction usage.

Deconstruction suggests dominance, as in a Feminist SJW would say, "muh Constitution,' stating that the USA Constitution is merely another way the patriarchy dominates and controls womyn. Yet, it could also be used in a general context that the Constitution is a Fed paper used for control over States Rights. See, deconstruction thinking is about two-dimensional dominance. Any general suggestion of this is a lie, as the US Constitution, although it has often been undermined, and used by cowards to hide behind, is a valid cornerstone of Western Civilization.

To attack the US Constitution in an open context is wrong. Why not just attack any of the other intellectual pillars of Western Civilization?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 24, 2017 12:50 PM  

DonaldR wrote:
First, it's ridiculous that the members of the majority religion in the West and the U.S. always seem to make themselves into the victim.
Because they are the only religious group offiicially and as a matter of policy discriminated against for practicing their religion. Because, despite the numbers, the country is run by and for the benefit of homosexuals, Atheists and Jews. Christians are tolerated, if and only if they do not assert any right that runs contrary to the interests, identity or propaganda of homosexuals and Jews, and do not exhibit any group or corporate identity that offends Atheists.

It's concerning that someone who is apparently listened to by a tranche of people simply can't make sense nor has any clear understanding of human nature.
Or maybe, you're, you know, a moron. That hypothesis certainly fits the observable facts better.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 24, 2017 12:51 PM  

DonaldR wrote:VD, do you think the world would have been a better place had Hitler and the Nazis had been successful in killing virtually all Jews in Europe, Russia and the near East?
No, just your grandparents. Aliyah time.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 24, 2017 12:58 PM  

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
― Thomas Jefferson


Tom never had Jihadis for neighbors.

He did figure out that paying tribute to Jihadi pashas didn't work. "Shores of Tripoli".

https://infogalactic.com/info/Barbary_Wars

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Deplorable Cents April 24, 2017 1:00 PM  

@123 DonaldR
VD, do you think the world would have been a better place had Hitler and the Nazis had been successful in killing virtually all Jews in Europe, Russia and the near East?

Very interesting question. I'm sure VD will answer.
But first, have you stopped beating your wife?

Anonymous DonaldR April 24, 2017 1:09 PM  

"Christians are tolerated, if and only if they do not assert any right that runs contrary to the interests, identity or propaganda of homosexuals and Jews, and do not exhibit any group or corporate identity that offends Atheists."

What right has been asserted by American Christians that so offended Jews and Homosexuals we saw Christians becoming victims of something? How have American Christians been diminished?

I think the martyr complex among the most extremely right wing in the u.s. lead them to misunderstand and misread enought that they end up sounding like you.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer April 24, 2017 1:10 PM  

Concern troll is concerned.

Blogger Leandro Novaes April 24, 2017 1:17 PM  

Not true. They will appeal to the European Court.

Blogger VD April 24, 2017 1:22 PM  

VD, do you think the world would have been a better place had Hitler and the Nazis had been successful in killing virtually all Jews in Europe, Russia and the near East?

No, I don't think the world would be very different at all. Most of the Jews in America and Israel were already there by then. I doubt making the death toll larger would lessen either the legitimate grievance or the guilt industry.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 24, 2017 1:22 PM  

DonaldR wrote:What right has been asserted by American Christians that so offended Jews and Homosexuals we saw Christians becoming victims of something?
The right to refuse to participate in some lesbian's vile fantasy of a wedding is the primary one right now. The right to keep perverts out of your daughter's locker room. The right to defend your marriage. The right to defend your child's life in utero. The right to erect a cross to honor the war dead. the right to put up a community expression of religious sentiment.
Hell, in my industry, I have to hide my religious identity to avoid harassment.

I'm sure you have some explanation for how all of these are just exceptions and righteous ones at that. That's because you're a partisan.

And a moron, can't forget that.

Blogger VD April 24, 2017 1:24 PM  

First, it's ridiculous that the members of the majority religion in the West and the U.S. always seem to make themselves into the victim.

It's not ridiculous when they are the actual victims. Seen any Buddhists sued and bankrupted for not baking cakes? Hindus? Ba'hai?

Blogger VFM #7634 April 24, 2017 1:32 PM  

It's not ridiculous when they are the actual victims. Seen any Buddhists sued and bankrupted for not baking cakes? Hindus? Ba'hai?

...Muslims?...

Anonymous DonaldR April 24, 2017 1:33 PM  

"No, I don't think the world would be very different at all. Most of the Jews in America and Israel were already there by then. I doubt making the death toll larger would lessen either the legitimate grievance or the guilt industry."

I'm happy to hear you say that. Another question. Would the world have been a better or worse place had Hitler and the Nazi's not attempted to carry out theri "Final Solution"?

Blogger tuberman April 24, 2017 1:34 PM  

133. Snidely

"Hell, in my industry, I have to hide my religious identity to avoid harassment."

Very common, and worse, trying to get you fired, using other "issues" to hide behind. A Christian woman almost got fired for her beliefs, just before I retired. She had to keep her religion to herself after that.

Anonymous DonaldR April 24, 2017 1:35 PM  

"It's not ridiculous when they are the actual victims. Seen any Buddhists sued and bankrupted for not baking cakes? Hindus? Ba'hai?"

Have there been any of that religion that have refused? I may be wrong, but I don't recall any reports of such.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Deplorable Cents April 24, 2017 1:37 PM  

DonaldR, have you stopped beating your wife?
Just answer the question. Yes or no?

Blogger Cail Corishev April 24, 2017 1:38 PM  

Have there been any of that religion that have refused?

No one persecutes them by putting them on the spot in the first place, which is the point, but you knew that.

Your gee-gosh-whillikers-just-asking-questions act is tiresome.

Anonymous DonaldR April 24, 2017 1:40 PM  

"The right to refuse to participate in some lesbian's vile fantasy of a wedding is the primary one right now. The right to keep perverts out of your daughter's locker room. The right to defend your marriage. The right to defend your child's life in utero. The right to erect a cross to honor the war dead. the right to put up a community expression of religious sentiment."

Had any of the issues you reference been legally applied only to Christians then I'd say you have a point. But they have not, as you know.

Also, what does "defend your marriage mean"? Have you been denied he right to marry? Know anyone who has been denied the right to marry? I don't think this is an issue of you being denied any particular rights as a Christian. It sounds like you are upset that government policy is not agreeing with your view of what constitutes "sanctity".

Also, in wha way were your children's life attacked in Utero? Also, you have every right to put up a cross on your property to honor anyone.

Anonymous DonaldR April 24, 2017 1:41 PM  

"No one persecutes them by putting them on the spot in the first place, which is the point, but you knew that."

Or, maybe there are not any examples of them denying service.

Blogger Koanic April 24, 2017 1:50 PM  

the US Constitution, although it has often been undermined, and used by cowards to hide behind, is a valid cornerstone of Western Civilization.

Your spergy sense serves you well. This is what I'm making fun of when I say "muh Constitution".

I reckon your kind will fall silent at roughly the same rate as Communism apologists did after the collapse of the USSR.

Although the latter are arguably better people, because famine is temporary, whereas miscegenation is forever.

DeMOCKcraZEE for U 'n ME means VOting FOR stu-PID-ih-TEA!

Why don't all 1.5 million of you colonial reenactors get together with your obsolete hunting rifles and holy parchment and see whether you can last another 250. Right next to the Amish.

Anonymous johnc April 24, 2017 1:52 PM  

"If you Christians would just change your beliefs to match my standards then you wouldn't be persecuted!"

DonaldR you're the perfect embodiment of the entire point of the OP.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 24, 2017 1:52 PM  

Or maybe you're a disingenuous fool.

"Defend your marriage" means exactly that. Nothing to do with the right to marry. There used to be legally defined, scripturally based standards for divorce; abandonment, physical cruelty, adultery, etc. Now, either party can simply declare themselves done with it and use the courts to inflict devastation on the other. There is no mechanism left under law to defend the marriage. Period. It cannot be done.

My children's lives have not been attacked in utero. But a man may not, is not allowed, cannot defend his child's life. Period.

DonaldR wrote:Had any of the issues you reference been legally applied only to Christians then I'd say you have a point. But they have not, as you know.
Simply false. And you would have to make up a mythical story of Moslems being ruined and driven out of business by homosexuals to support this. It hasn't and won't happen because homosexuals don't hate Moslems the way they hate Christians, and Jewish lawyers, bureaucrats and judges will hesitate to inflict damage on them in exactly they way they do not hesitate to ruin and impoverish Christians.

As I said before, you will defend these things because your believe they are right and good. They are neither and they are used specifically to discriminate against Christians.

Blogger Rabbi B April 24, 2017 1:52 PM  

@142 DonaldR

Or, maybe there are not any examples of them denying service.

You miss the point entirely, but still manage to reinforce Cail's point. Impressive.

Blogger Student in Blue April 24, 2017 1:54 PM  

It's not ridiculous when they are the actual victims. Seen any Buddhists sued and bankrupted for not baking cakes? Hindus? Ba'hai?

...Muslims?...


...Atheists?

Blogger Cail Corishev April 24, 2017 1:58 PM  

Or, maybe there are not any examples of them denying service.

Whether members of one religion are willing to do something is irrelevant to whether members of another religion are being persecuted by forcing them to do that. You're moving the goalposts, but you knew that. Aaaand now, right on schedule, since you've gotten a couple people to treat your questions honestly, you're shifting to Question Diarrhea Mode, where you throw out dishonest and leading questions and see how many sticks you can get us to chase. Are you Phil Sandifer?

Pass. Also, you have to go back.

Anonymous DonaldR April 24, 2017 1:58 PM  

"DonaldR, have you stopped beating your wife?
Just answer the question. Yes or no?"

The answer is yes asI now no longer beat my wife in Gin Rummy.

Anonymous Anonymous April 24, 2017 2:01 PM  

1) Not all atheist regimes banned christianity. Indeed, America was arguably the first "atheist" (read: secular) regime. Marxist regimes generally ban religion. Not all "atheist" regimes are Marxist however.
2) Islam should be banned. I don't see any need to ban Hinduism or atheism.

Anonymous DonaldR April 24, 2017 2:05 PM  

""Defend your marriage" means exactly that. Nothing to do with the right to marry. There used to be legally defined, scripturally based standards for divorce; abandonment, physical cruelty, adultery, etc. Now, either party can simply declare themselves done with it and use the courts to inflict devastation on the other. There is no mechanism left under law to defend the marriage. Period. It cannot be done."

Yo seem to be asking that the state defend and protect your particular, bliblical understanding of marriage. That's your right. However, the fact that the laws have changed means that Christian and Jewish and Muslim and all other religious sentiments must adhere to the law.

"My children's lives have not been attacked in utero. But a man may not, is not allowed, cannot defend his child's life. Period"

You mean stop a woman from having an abortion with only his say so. You're right. But it's not just Christian men who may not impose their will on women. It's all men regardless of their religion or moral world view.

"Simply false. And you would have to make up a mythical story of Moslems being ruined and driven out of business by homosexuals to support this. It hasn't and won't happen because homosexuals don't hate Moslems the way they hate Christians, and Jewish lawyers, bureaucrats and judges will hesitate to inflict damage on them in exactly they way they do not hesitate to ruin and impoverish Christians."

Whether you are correct or not, this has nothing to do with the substance of the law. The law that denies one the right to refuse service addresses all people equally regardless of religion.

Anonymous DonaldR April 24, 2017 2:09 PM  

"Whether members of one religion are willing to do something is irrelevant to whether members of another religion are being persecuted by forcing them to do that"

You miss the point. Whether or not it's Christians who are largely impacted by the law that forbids denial of service, the law applies equally to all people, regardless of religion. Had the law said "Christians may not deny service", then I'd be with you. But, of course, it does not. It just so happens that it appears to be primarily Christians who want to deny service and not be faced with the consequences of a a law that applies to everyone.

Anonymous ADP April 24, 2017 2:11 PM  

1) Not all atheist regimes are Marxist. Indeed, America could be understood as arguably the first "atheist" (read: secular) regime. Only Marxist regimes & Muslim regimes consistently wage wars on christianity. Marxist regimes also typically wage wars on religion more generally.
2) We need only ban Islam. I just don't see any need to ban atheism or Hinduism.

Blogger Mr Darcy April 24, 2017 2:12 PM  

@95: The Methodist Church did not exist at that time.

Anonymous Urban II April 24, 2017 2:13 PM  

It is logically impossible for government to be neutral on fundamental issues of theology and morals since the very purpose of government is to discriminate between different competing theories of the good. Furthermore, either government authority or "just powers" derive from God or not from God (e.g. consent of the governed, equal freedom, individual autonomy), but it can't logically be both.

Lawrence vs Texas, Engel v. Vitale, Roe v. Wade, and Obergefell v. Hodges were not neutral Supreme Court rulings. Anyone suggesting otherwise is either lying or clearly doesn't understand the meaning of neutrality.

Blogger Koanic April 24, 2017 2:18 PM  

My problem with the Constitooshunalists is they don't even want to bring back the cool parts like slavery and genocide.

They're just Baby Boomers in disguise, who want to go back to when they were continent and everyone paid lipservice to the ideals their father's generation was tricked into dying for, because the high of Empire hadn't yet yielded to the hangover of hemorrhaging hegemony.

A verse for conservatives:

"Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?”
For it is not wise to ask such questions."

Anonymous glosoli April 24, 2017 2:21 PM  

Christianity was captured by the Roman satanists very early on, and that's the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, with its Mary worship, Saint worship, rituals, denial of free grace, confessions. The list is almost endless, and one need only look at the Popes over the years, and today (2 of them, for the price of one) to see what a bunch of evil-doers they are. I celebrate the reformation.

Putin is on satan's side:

http://www.jrnyquist.com/misreading-putin.html

He's a socialist to the core, he still loves the commie heroes (unless you deny your lying eyes). Best buddies with godless China commies, and is under the thumb of Chabad-Lubavitch, just like Trump.

This move in Russia is the start of full reformation reversal and an attempt will eventually made to launch a global religion, loosely based on Christianity, but with full allegiance to satan.

No one noticed that Trump and c.75% of his team are Jesuits? Don't go reading about their grand plan, probably just a conspiracy theory.

End times predictions will be fulfilled, Revelations isn't fiction you know, within 20-40 years, they don't need to rush. The rump of true Christians will have to swear allegiance, or will be persecuted.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RomeRules/comments/5eiqsm/trumps_jesuitcatholic_transition_team_responsible/

Protestants need to get organised, and quickly.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener April 24, 2017 2:32 PM  

"He's a socialist to the core, he still loves the commie heroes (unless you deny your lying eyes)."

Nope. He's a nationalist who respects his predecessors - men who did what they genuinely thought was best for their nation at the time - even though he differs with them ideologically. He has publicly condemned communism, pointing out that it was not an organically Russian movement.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 24, 2017 2:35 PM  

DonaldR wrote:Whether you are correct or not, this has nothing to do with the substance of the law. The law that denies one the right to refuse service addresses all people equally regardless of religion.
"The law requiring all to offer sacrifice to the Emperor applies equally to Pagans as it does to Christians."

Or, as was said just before the French Revolution:"The law is equal for all. The rich as well as the poor are forbidden to sleep under bridges. The theft of bread is just as much a crime for the fat as for the starving."

But mostly, you're a moron, and now revealed to be a dishonest moron, as expected. Snidely Whiplash wrote:I'm sure you have some explanation for how all of these are just exceptions and righteous ones at that. That's because you're a partisan.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 24, 2017 2:36 PM  

ADP wrote:We need only ban Islam. I just don't see any need to ban atheism or Hinduism.
That's because you're an Atheist, using Hinduism as just a shield. Hinduism is just as bad as Islam.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 24, 2017 2:40 PM  

glosoli wrote:Protestants need to get organised, and quickly.
A certain variety of Protestant in America always warns of danger from Catholics, even as his church is being destroyed by Feminists, Atheists and Jews.

Anonymous glosoli April 24, 2017 2:43 PM  

Noah, it's great to see the level of trust you have in Putin, you know, telling the truth about his plans. Always trust commie politicians. Maybe read the J Nyquist piece, with Putin's words, and believe your lying eyes. And consider his deeds. Russia is still full-blown commie, they just hide it nicely. And all the while, their work to destroy the last powerful enemy, the States, continues. Just the US dollar to implode, then job done.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener April 24, 2017 2:58 PM  

@161 My opinion of Putin has absolutely nothing to do with trust and everything to do with observing reality. Russia is now an oligarchy and Putin in fully on board with that; any lip service he's paying to communism is probably given with the intent of misdirecting those who are easily distracted, such as yourself.

Believing that the largest nation on the planet is somehow secretly communist is full retard level paranoia.

Anonymous Red Cabbage April 24, 2017 3:09 PM  

@114 "To the extent various churches are contributing to our cultural collapse, it's through convergence, the opposite of schism."

Yes, convergence is a problem now. But where I live you can still see the effects of the original problem, which is schism. They're still very conservative here (not cucked) but too busy condemning each other from the pulpit over questions like "Can a person lose his salvation once he gets it?" Meanwhile due to their divisions they don't combine to use their political or social power for anything useful like kicking the Leftist entryists out of the county the way they used to.

"If you wish to live under one church with one doctrine, you have to consider the possibility it will be a converged churchian one. Then what?"

I'll try to relax and wait for it to collapse. I sincerely believe that cucked churches can't stand under their own weight. The eventual church will be conservative because leftism is death.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 24, 2017 3:10 PM  

@glosoli,
How's the weather back in the 1970s? I know the economy is shit. Give it a couple of years, when Reagan wins, it gets better, slowly. Sorry for the spoiler.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper April 24, 2017 3:24 PM  

The US at one time persecuted JW's for refusal to participate in conscription and various patriotic social signalling especially centered around the flag.

Likely Russia is doing this for the same reason though the JW's hardly qualify as extreme anything other than dreary. They are also pretty good Christians as well although no doubt mainstream people do not agree as they see the Nicean Creed in the same way the Muslims do the Shahada.

That aside, Russia isn't the West and the Orthodox faith isn't go to re-center Christianity or Christendom in Europe

Christendom is moving to Latin and South America with outposts like Korea here and there. It may end up African or you could end up with a situation where Europe is non religious, the US is less religious and Christianity is a mainly non White, less developed thing

Also while parts of the US are Christian at least some studies show its just a bit above half including bland denominations with 25% non religious and as much as 20% raised religious and lapsed.

Even sending Fake Americans home or higher fertility rates might not be enough to shift things.

This is especially true in Europe where at least at the national level, White fertility rates are higher is less religious nations

On those grounds I'd keep the desire for a new inquisition as strictly fiction

Its also unnecessary but that's not really anything folks here would agree on anyway.

Anonymous Lawyer Guy April 24, 2017 3:40 PM  

Elizabeth wrote:Lawyer Guy wrote:But some minority religions own the government.

I live in a city that is 20% fundie Jews. No city Friday night events, library and city hall closed Sat, open Sun, but they allow the pool and gym to be open Sat, so that's nice.

They have three 20 million dollar walking plazas with grass and trees over the freeway, but can't afford to fix my sidewalk. No Christmas banners allowed on city lamp poles.


Out of curiousity, would you mind revealing what city that it? I am thinking somewhere in Rockland County, NY, or Lakewood, NJ.

Jews, fundie or not, are a minority, but a wealthy, united, organized and determined minority, so they get their way.


Metro Detroit. The Chabad (Habad) group, who appear to have a lot of political power and lack of ability to drive well

Anonymous A.B. Prosper April 24, 2017 3:58 PM  

VFM #6306 wrote:Banning islam, mormonism, scientology and JW would result in...peace, Deseret, Clear and the end of days (1914-style), respectively.

Sounds good. Let's do it.


Neither the JW's not the LDS in the bigger picture cause any kind of trouble.

Also re: Mormonism, there are 4 million adults them all armed, many with military experience and security experience and high fertility All are highly tribal and they have strong control over several states as well

I'd rather not face off against someone who knowing they will be exterminated will probably use bio weapons .

Speaking of which, its also possible in the long run we may find a gene sequence for strong religiosity and simply vaccinate, possibly using one or more tailored virus . Catch a cold, become agnostic.

It won't stop war of course but it would be incredibly effective at reducing religious warfare more so than "30 Years War 2 Electric Bugaloo"

Blogger tuberman April 24, 2017 4:00 PM  

155.
"My problem with the Constitooshunalists is they don't even want to bring back the cool parts like slavery and genocide."

Don't worry the Muslims have got ya covered. They keep doing both...you should convert. Then you could quit whining.

Blogger VFM #7634 April 24, 2017 4:08 PM  

"DonaldR, have you stopped beating your wife?
Just answer the question. Yes or no?"

The answer is yes asI now no longer beat my wife in Gin Rummy.


There's no fool like an old fool...

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 24, 2017 4:08 PM  

A.B. Prosper wrote:Speaking of which, its also possible in the long run we may find a gene sequence for strong religiosity and simply vaccinate, possibly using one or more tailored virus . Catch a cold, become agnostic.

It won't stop war of course but it would be incredibly effective at reducing religious warfare more so than "30 Years War 2 Electric Bugaloo"


Your Atheist religious bigotry and hatred is funny, as is the superstitious wish-casting. Pathetic, but funny.
You realize that religion is one of the least common causes of warfare, a fact established by our host through extensive research, right?

Anonymous Tipsy April 24, 2017 4:11 PM  

glosoli wrote:denial of free grace

Just to touch on one of your points, have you ever read the sections of Council of Trent or the Catechism on grace?

You might have to drop that one from your list of grievances. I might, on the other hand, have to grant you some wiggle room on rogue Jesuits.

Blogger VFM #7634 April 24, 2017 4:37 PM  

There are traditional Catholics. We're treated the same way the alt-right is treated by neo-cons, though.

The neo-Catholics have failed, though. They relied on papolatry and ultramontanism to defend the new mass, but now because of Francis they look like idiots.

Protestants are safe for centuries if not pernanently, since serious, logical, sincere Catholics are having to fight our own bishops in America.


@78 Wynn Lloyd
Pretty much. We traditional Catholics are in the same situation as Old Believers, but if anything, worse. Our official Church has been taken over by total SJW jokes, so we wouldn't be tolerated in "Catholic countries". Yet Protestants see us as the same as the Pelosi-type we-are-the-world idiots who love Fake Pope Frankie because we share the same doctrines as the "mainstream" Catholics (on paper), even though we're the only ones who actually believe them. I mean, c'mon, can a "Catholic" actually approve of abortion and gay marriage without committing heresy at least somewhere?

Blogger VFM #7634 April 24, 2017 4:38 PM  

Although, I don't bother fighting "our own" bishops in America because it's like recusants fighting Anglican bishops in England in 1617.

Blogger VFM #7634 April 24, 2017 4:49 PM  

A certain variety of Protestant in America always warns of danger from Catholics, even as his church is being destroyed by Feminists, Atheists and Jews.

@Snidely Whiplash
It's supremely ironic that the one religion that is completely powerless and with its official structures controlled by its enemies still has the ability to get the panties of Protestants, Jews, and Russian Orthodox in a bunch.

Yes, the Russian Orthodox too. One Orthodox priest was asked why they were more worried about Catholics than the Protestants, who have aggressive missionary activity. His answer was something to the effect that Protestants are a fad, but Catholics stick around forever.

Heck, the Musloids are still dreaming of taking over Rome, which is funny considering that Rome is completely converged and open for the taking now.

Anonymous Mr. Rational April 24, 2017 5:06 PM  

@105  Hasn't Southfield also taken a major influx of Muslims and Detoilet-scrapings?

Widely Headgash wrote:Add in Atheists relentless hammering on Christian dogma (Hi, Mr. Rational!) as silly pointless nitpicking
The only reason any atheist cares about any part of your dogma is because you call for it to be imposed on non-believers.  There is very much a point to this.

This goes double when the imposition is both intimate and costly, such as in family matters.  When you follow a deluded dogma we shake our heads or laugh; when you demand WE follow a deluded dogma, you get people ready to take up arms.  You really don't want that.

Blogger Elizabeth April 24, 2017 5:24 PM  

Lawyer Guy wrote:Elizabeth wrote:Lawyer Guy wrote:But some minority religions own the government.

I live in a city that is 20% fundie Jews. No city Friday night events, library and city hall closed Sat, open Sun, but they allow the pool and gym to be open Sat, so that's nice.

They have three 20 million dollar walking plazas with grass and trees over the freeway, but can't afford to fix my sidewalk. No Christmas banners allowed on city lamp poles.


Out of curiousity, would you mind revealing what city that it? I am thinking somewhere in Rockland County, NY, or Lakewood, NJ.

Jews, fundie or not, are a minority, but a wealthy, united, organized and determined minority, so they get their way.


Metro Detroit. The Chabad (Habad) group, who appear to have a lot of political power and lack of ability to drive well


Metro Detroit! I didn't expect that.

A friend works in Lakewood, NJ, where there are many Haredis. She said that they are arrogant and prone to walking across the street without looking. The haredis are moving into nearby Toms River, as well, but there is resistance to selling to them.

Anonymous W. Lindsay Wheeler April 24, 2017 5:25 PM  

Vox wrote: " ...any religion that harms the commonwealth merits similar outlaw status."

Well, in America, both the Catholic and Protestant Churches are pro-immigration and are Cultural Marxists. They need to be outlawed because they are harming the commonweal!

The whole Church has apostasized and has become heretical--it has become Gnostic.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper April 24, 2017 5:49 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:A.B. Prosper wrote:Speaking of which, its also possible in the long run we may find a gene sequence for strong religiosity and simply vaccinate, possibly using one or more tailored virus . Catch a cold, become agnostic.

It won't stop war of course but it would be incredibly effective at reducing religious warfare more so than "30 Years War 2 Electric Bugaloo"


Your Atheist religious bigotry and hatred is funny, as is the superstitious wish-casting. Pathetic, but funny.

You realize that religion is one of the least common causes of warfare, a fact established by our host through extensive research, right?


I'm not an atheist actually. Believing that what we think and believe resides in the brain is fully compatible with belief in higher powers.

whether you are religious or not is biological in origin, we've done multiple fmRI and other scans that show the differences. The easiest to detect is the religious experience though I've read that religious experiences also show a shrunken hippocampus

We've also diminished religiosity with transcrainial magnetic stimulation.

long and short, religion is in the brain as is nearly everything about us and the brain is subject to our genes

We probably won't be able to find the gene markers immediately though , this far bio-science has been a bit of a fizzle and no one is particularly interested in such research

Lot of reasons for that, nearly every State and group depends on free social capital from religious indeation especially the cathedral

That said its a high probably event that bio-weapons will be used in warfare by one or both sides if there is a religious war of exterminatus

Second, while you are right that religion is not the main cause of war, that wasn't my point.

A world in which nearly all people were strongly to mildly agnostic will not have religious wars since such people are not interested in religion . In time the idea of religion for good or ill will vanish

what effects this would have is unknown , speaking only of material ones, it might end up making larger scale societies untenable or diminishing fertility too much.

Hard to tell, we don't have much experience with non religious societies and while modern White Scandinavians mostly seem to be agnostic with tendencies to Nature Worship (the default white religion anyway) they have a pretty good fertility rate despite a crowded society

And note this doesn't mean atheism which is a almost certainly related to religion in terms of thinking processes

The bigger question, are other wars are created by displaced religious ideation in the brain, is entirely separate. I don't know myself. Maybe, maybe not.

That said if you were fighting someone who was trying to force you to believe what they did or to participate in their ritual and you get spanked using our technlogy oh well. War is hell. Power is truth.



Blogger Leandro Novaes April 24, 2017 5:51 PM  

It's funny how the atheists that say how terrifyingly evil Christians were during the Crusades are always happy to challenge Christians to an all out war against them. It's almost as if they didn't think the Crusades were terrifying, at all.

Still, Mr. Rational seems to have learned nothing from the Battle for Berkeley, last week.

Or does he think his atheist friends were in the winning side?

Blogger Mr Darcy April 24, 2017 5:54 PM  

@ DonaldR

Blah blah blah the law blah blah blah the substance of the law blah blah blah.

Try to get this through your head: "The law" is whatever those who enforce the law (or don't) SAY it is, and nothing more. Anything else is just jabbering. Like you.

Blogger Leandro Novaes April 24, 2017 6:03 PM  

"That said its a high probably event that bio-weapons will be used in warfare by one or both sides if there is a religious war of exterminatus"

No, it's not. If anything, it's less likely that such methods would be used, unless the religion fighting is Muslim. Atheists are the ones that love to use bio-weapons.

"A world in which nearly all people were strongly to mildly agnostic will not have religious wars"

You can get about the same results by building a wall around Middle East and sending all Muslims back there, plus letting Christians build communities where other denominations could not live.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 24, 2017 6:07 PM  

@157 glosoli

No one noticed that Trump and c.75% of his team are Jesuits?

Donald Trump, his parents, his siblings and his wives didn't notice. For some reason they probably believe he's a Presbyterian.

https://infogalactic.com/info/Donald_Trump

Dude, total conspiracy fail.

Blogger weka April 24, 2017 6:09 PM  

Better a John Calvin who insists on the utter depravity of humanity than a squishy modern "presbyterian" that knows the Jesus loves us.
Better an Alphonse Liguori than the current pope.
Better a John and Chales Wesley than a modern Methodist church that prays to the Mother Goddess.


This. And why this Calvinist, who believes in total depravity, would shout a beer for Cail and the Catholic Ilk. Or the orthodox. Or even the Lutherans.

Blogger Beau April 24, 2017 6:18 PM  

Beau, don't make the mistake of projecting American tolerance onto Russian culture.

Little chance of that; America has no concept of the Russian nationals worshipping in the forest in unregistered churches and the lengths to which they would go to remain faithful to God.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper April 24, 2017 6:19 PM  

Leandro Novaes wrote:"That said its a high probably event that bio-weapons will be used in warfare by one or both sides if there is a religious war of exterminatus"

No, it's not. If anything, it's less likely that such methods would be used, unless the religion fighting is Muslim. Atheists are the ones that love to use bio-weapons.

"A world in which nearly all people were strongly to mildly agnostic will not have religious wars"

You can get about the same results by building a wall around Middle East and sending all Muslims back there, plus letting Christians build communities where other denominations could not live.


I'm figuring a Western Christian v Islam or "Cathedral" state is the highest probable outcome with a good chance of creating some kind of more rational a Gilead type state . The later might just just get resisted with bio-weapons and as if the society is intact, at current rates such weapons will be easy to make. It only take a couple of guys to make them and with so many combatants , its plausible

A "counter religion" forced vaccination weapon is possible, virus can rewrite DNA but we don't have the knowledge yet . Its a low probably event.

A more general war of Christians Evangelical and some Catholics vs everyone else is going to be a lot messier. It probably won't be biowar since Christians aren't going to be using such weapons, probably

That said Islam is everywhere, its all over the entire planet. You can't just wall of the Middle East and make it go away. You have to force it out of your society before its numerous enough to prevent you from that and note, modern technlogy makes it difficult to create mimetic quarantine . You could go full dictatorship North Korea with Markets and Jesus or the like but that will be resisted. Don't count on winning that.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 24, 2017 6:23 PM  

A.B. Prosper wrote:A world in which nearly all people were strongly to mildly agnostic will not have religious wars since such people are not interested in religion . In time the idea of religion for good or ill will vanish

How many of the people who call for religious war, who called for the 30-years war, for an example, do you think were actually religious in any meaningful sense?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash April 24, 2017 6:26 PM  

The point being that eliminating religion, which is, contrary to your materialist ethos, not possible without mind control, is not going to reduce war in any significant way. For the persons controlling the culture, the princes, kings, bishops, etc, religion was most often an excuse and a recruiting tool, not an actual reason.

Anonymous Eric the Red April 24, 2017 6:27 PM  

Russia has a State Church. That church is Russian Orthodox. Any other church in the country is there on sufferance, and associated laws should be put in place to make it plain which way they can may or may not be allowed to piss in the wind.

Frankly, I see no problem with a militant Russian Orthodox Church as a pillar of Mother Russia.

Anonymous Eric the Red April 24, 2017 6:29 PM  

Russia has a State Church. That church is Russian Orthodox. Any other church in the country is there on sufferance, and associated laws should be put in place to make it plain which way they can may or may not be allowed to piss in the wind.

Frankly, I see no problem with a militant Russian Orthodox Church as a pillar of Mother Russia.

Anonymous glosoli April 24, 2017 6:38 PM  

Probably why they sent him to Fordham.

https://www.fordham.edu/info/24738/jesuits_at_fordham

Next up, you'll be claiming Francis is a right-wing Christian, not a commie fag-hag.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 24, 2017 6:57 PM  

@185 Beau
Beau, don't make the mistake of projecting American tolerance onto Russian culture.

Little chance of that; America has no concept of the Russian nationals worshipping in the forest in unregistered churches and the lengths to which they would go to remain faithful to God.

Please calm down. If you have ever read Solzhenitsyn, you would know to what lengths Russians, Ukranians and other Christians under the Soviet yoke went to remain faithful to God. Many, many martyrs.
If you want someone to fight, I'm not that guy.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents April 24, 2017 7:02 PM  

@190 glosoli
Probably why they sent him to Fordham.
https://www.fordham.edu/info/24738/jesuits_at_fordham


LOL! Weak, not even sauce, just dribble.

In August 1964, Trump entered Fordham University in the Bronx. After two years at Fordham, he transferred to the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, because it offered one of the few real estate studies departments in United States academia at the time.[15][16]

Dude, where's your proof?

Next up, you'll be claiming Francis is a right-wing Christian, not a commie fag-hag.

I'm sure that Donald Trump and Pope Francine are not the same person. I'm also sure Trump was raised by a Lutheran father and a Presbyterian mother, and that he was confirmed in the Presbyterian church. So he's no way a Jesuit Catholic.

Again:
https://infogalactic.com/info/Donald_Trump

You say Trump is a Jesuit? Direct question to you: produce evidence, or admit you are wrong.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper April 24, 2017 7:24 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:The point being that eliminating religion, which is, contrary to your materialist ethos, not possible without mind control, is not going to reduce war in any significant way. For the persons controlling the culture, the princes, kings, bishops, etc, religion was most often an excuse and a recruiting tool, not an actual reason.

I can't tell you how many people in that war were religious, no one can. Given the culture differences, I suspect its a lot more than in modern times.

Also reducing religion is doable, as noted we can do it with magnets right now . While something may survive the death of the body, who we are, what we believe is material it in our brain which has been proven time and time again,

As for that goes, I'm not interested in mutating people in that manner. Others may well be though and these days, its becoming more and more possible to do this.

Its worth considering novel tactics like this or just old fashioned germ warfare by bio-hackers especially if those guys are on the extermination list.

That said while I don't think a Western Christendom is needed or outside of a part of the US becoming a separate is going be a thing in the future , I could be wrong

Regardless I don't see Christians outside of religious wars or at all in the general sense as bad guys and compared to most everyone else are the good guys

Broadly, Christianity applied properly makes things better.

That doesn't mean its coming back though or that in any way shape or or form people who want no part of telling people what to believe in outside of a few exceptions (mostly Islam) ought to support such a war

Doesn't mean there won't be one of course.

Anonymous glosoli April 24, 2017 7:34 PM  

Time will prove me right or wrong. Trump is their man for sure though.
You believe the things you read, and what he says, and take it all at face value.
I'll look at what he does and who he sides with, and who is in his cabinet, a big load of Catholics and Jesuits.
Next up, a warm and cuddly visit to/from Francis and Trump, to seal the deal. Rings will be kissed, mutually perhaps.
I wonder why Trump's father died in a Jewish medical facility?
Probably nothing.


Blogger SirHamster April 24, 2017 7:40 PM  

Cail Corishev wrote:Yes, that means Catholic or Orthodox or Protestant nations could end up banning each other's public worship along with non-Christian types. That would be preferable to Christian nations playing along with this New Age Churchian "all faiths have value and must be respected" garbage.

Note how even the most liberal of churches still use their own buildings and spaces for regular worship.

I have never seen a combined Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant place of worship. We worship with like believers*.

Whether we self-segregate at a local level or a national level, the precedent is already set.


* I think this indicates how far the churches who actually incorporate Islamic/New-Age in their worship have fallen - they have more in common with paganism and heresy than other Christians.

Anonymous Tipsy April 24, 2017 7:46 PM  

A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents wrote:If you have ever read Solzhenitsyn, you would know to what lengths Russians, Ukranians and other Christians under the Soviet yoke went to remain faithful to God. Many, many martyrs.

I remember reading about the Bolsheviks killing orthodox monks by hanging them by the jaws with meat hooks.

Anonymous Tipsy April 24, 2017 7:55 PM  

On top of that, there were thousands of priests killed in Spain from the Red Terror in the 30s. Many priests and nuns were imprisoned during "Operation K" in Czechslovakia in the 50s,

In short, there were plenty of Christian martyrs of Communism in the last century, many of who have been sadly forgotten.

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