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Wednesday, May 03, 2017

Mailvox: A church, converged

This is what it looks like. Step by step, the world reels in one congregation after another, simply because the members would not abide by the Scripture.

The church that I grew up in was a place that I loved. My family spent a lot of time volunteering at various functions to help the place run right: setting up for lunch after the service, helping pass out food at funeral services, spending time getting it set up for vacation bible school, etc. A lot of good memories were made in that place that are still cherished to this day. Then came time to go away to college and I spent less time at that church, simply stopping in when I came home.

Looking back and thinking about the things that Vox has brought up, I realize all the signs of a growing convergence were there that we didn’t see. It started with the little things that we went along with because, how much could it hurt right? We no longer sang just the old hymns, and moved onto a mix of contemporary worship songs. Then there were no more hymns. Heaven forbid if the sound system crashed as the congregation would just have to stand there in shock and silence now. Then came the eradication of the clauses in the Bylaws about prohibiting members of the Masons to be elders, because that was simply “an old, archaic thing that didn’t matter anymore”. Then came the church vote on installing women deacons and elders, as both of them had “just done so much for the church”. Then came the hiring of a “new, dynamic pastor” who was certainly going to revitalize the numbers of people that were for some odd reason starting to drift to other churches. He certainly wasn’t Reformed, but that really didn’t matter did it? During the meeting with him before the vote, he was amazed that there was this document called the Heidelberg Catechism and had never heard of it, but promised to go read it when he was able. And finally there came the raiding of the saving account that the giving of the faithful had stored up over a hundred and twenty five years. Now it was all needed to build a “community outreach center” for the “vibrant growth of the unchurched” that would be our new church building and revitalize the area to new heights for God.

Now, I drive through the streets of my hometown out towards the crossroads of the highway to look at that God-forsaken temple to man’s arrogance. It is a grand, new building designed by some snooty architectural firm that is pretty much a mirror image of a movie theater the next town over. No real identifying marks on it, unless you drive around back and stumble upon where there is a cross. Or I guess if you can decode the “Faith Center” or whatever it is called now, and recognize it as a church. I have snuck in once or twice to see the new reality, just to sate my curiosity. After the light show and the semi-professional band is done playing, there is a fifteen minute self-help service that tells us how good we are and cherished we are. People are encouraged to bring their own Bibles, though I can’t see why, as there is no mention of God’s Holy Writ during the service. Must be for show. Or maybe something to rest your gourmet coffee on so as not to stain the new carpet.

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238 Comments:

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Anonymous Faceless May 03, 2017 11:53 AM  

Tear it down, salt the earth, set up a solitary cross and some folding chairs, and God will receive greater glory. The serpent always swallows things inch by inch.

Blogger Servant May 03, 2017 11:57 AM  

sic semper church governments.

If you declare fundamental visceral truths as negotiable positions, you have already denied their fundamental visceral status and have already lost.

And since I lean more towards wall building, don't let the congregation vote on anything. Just leads to bad habits.

I mistrust those who seek after a position. Moses appointed the first elders to lead the Israelites. Voting is bad.

Side tangent, Seeker friend means hiding truth, what are the seekers seeking? Let them find it elsewhere.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2017 11:58 AM  

different kind of convergence. He's seen his church sell out and become a megachurch.

Very different from the SJW convergence we see in the UMC. The SJW convergence doesn't result in explosive growth. It results in death and destruction. Where churches that 10 years before had 500 butts in the seats on sunday morning... now have empty buildings and 25 people showing up to "worship" with a BLack Lives Matter banner at the front door.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2017 11:58 AM  

I'm not saying the megachurch thing is a good thing at all. Joel Osteen should be stoned for heresy. But it is very different from SJW convergence.

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable May 03, 2017 12:05 PM  

But it is very different from SJW convergence.

Agreed, but it's convergence all the same. My brother's church went the same route, inch by miserable inch. Now he's church shopping.

Blogger cheddarman May 03, 2017 12:05 PM  

I have been to a number of "churches" described in the article, they seem to cater mainly to women.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 03, 2017 12:06 PM  

Nate, SJW convergence is like a rock from a trebuchet. At first it rises, maybe higher than you'd expect. Then it drops. This letter is all about a Reformed church being converged, bringing in more and more people. It works that way for a while, then it stops working. I saw a Church of Christ go this route a few years back. Seeker sensitive, "give the women a role in the church" heading for lady deacons. For a while it worked, then about half the congregation up and left for other C of C's that weren't infested.

With all due respect to my Methodist brethren, the convergence has been going on for a long time on y'all. Those lady preachers are part of it. The apogee was passed years ago, now it's the downside. But at least Methodism has African bishops to act as a brake on the runaway train.

My last family members in the PC - USA have left that church, because there was no brake on the SJW's who captured it. That church is imploding. But at least no one can call them rayciss or charge them with being "not relevant to the culture". So they got that comfort, in their empty buildings.

Anonymous Dack Thrombosis May 03, 2017 12:09 PM  

Heretics always compound their heresies, eventually. Every protestant church is a heresy. What's surprising is that it took so long. Of course, the Catholic Church started down the path of heresy with Vatican II so they're hardly safe. Outside of the traditionalists, and frankly I don't know much about their ins and outs, is there any True Church now?

Anonymous fop May 03, 2017 12:12 PM  

Then came the eradication of the clauses in the Bylaws about prohibiting members of the Masons to be elders, because that was simply “an old, archaic thing that didn’t matter anymore”.

They are the worst. If SJW's are like an infestation of rodents, Masons are like wolves hunting in a pack looking for a kill.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer May 03, 2017 12:16 PM  

The first step is always giving the hens in the congregation more voice and power than they should have. This usually results in a power struggle with the Pastor especially if he is not one of the SJW types. From that point forward it is all down hill.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 May 03, 2017 12:16 PM  

Dack Thrombosis wrote:Heretics always compound their heresies, eventually. Every protestant church is a heresy. What's surprising is that it took so long. Of course, the Catholic Church started down the path of heresy with Vatican II so they're hardly safe. Outside of the traditionalists, and frankly I don't know much about their ins and outs, is there any True Church now?

Maybe the Eastern Orthodox Church. But then again, no Western Church is really safe from the pull of progressives and their wicked thoughts and deeds.

Blogger michaeloh59 May 03, 2017 12:18 PM  

My impression of the Joel Osteen style Jesus lite churchorations is that they rarely take the lead in advancing the Left, but provide boat loads of spiritual novacaine to parishioners as they passively witness the destruction of our civilization.

Just a note: 2 weeks ago we were driving north through the heart of Houston on a Sunday and all of a sudden we were confronted by near rush hour traffic. WTF? This is NOT why we chose Sunday to make this trip. Then I remembered Joel Osteens corporate headquarters is on our route and the faithful's SUVs were choking the off ramp and feeder roads to Jesus Inc. It looked like the traffic to an NFL stadium on game day.

Blogger pyrrhus May 03, 2017 12:21 PM  

Roger Zelazny called called these people Trimmers...meaning they trim their sails to whatever wind is blowing. If that's who you have running your church or any other institution, they are going to prostitute the institution to the secular Gods, as Conquest's laws predicted long ago.

Blogger EasyCompany May 03, 2017 12:22 PM  

Dack Thrombosis

Try the SSPX.com for us real Catholics.

I have to admit that while I will never stop being Catholic, the Orthodox Church has weathered the times better than anyone.

Blogger Aeoli Pera May 03, 2017 12:22 PM  

The architecture tells the story.

Blogger Aeoli Pera May 03, 2017 12:24 PM  

Churchians are the religious equivalent of moderates. They serve no purpose except as apologists for evil.

Blogger KSC May 03, 2017 12:25 PM  

It might be hard to believe, but this is reversible. My church when I was young went through something very similar, and has mostly managed to recover. It's not the most conservative church in the world but it has avoided the major heresies

Blogger pyrrhus May 03, 2017 12:26 PM  

What Americans have now is the Church of "nice", with nice being defined by leftist females to mean supporting and subsidizing everyone except you and your family. "Nice" has turned into a murder weapon.

Blogger Giraffe May 03, 2017 12:27 PM  

That's why more men, (read me) need to be active in the church. To prevent this sort of thing from happening.

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky May 03, 2017 12:30 PM  

Office and liturgy really do matter. Take those things away, and now the success of the congregation depends too much on the pastor. Sure, rockstar pastors will build the odd megachurch, but even then beware. Too much​ rests on the charisma of dynamo pastors.

But the real power of any Christian meeting is in the Communication. First and foremost. It's God's church, or it is nothing.

Anonymous Looking Glass May 03, 2017 12:30 PM  

The Rubicon is always Women on the Deacon board. They'll compromise every other tenet of the faith; it is only a matter of time. The fact it's explicitly against the New Testament only goes to the point, but it's one of those subtle, behind the scenes issues you don't see until it is too late.

As a practical matter, the major issues reach back to the early 1800s for a lot of theological shifts. What, you thought the convergence was recent? Oh, no, we're just at the long-tail end of the event. But much like the Reformation happened after 200 years of corruption of the Priesthood, we're approaching new responses. It is going to be messy.

Though there is also something that needs to be addressed, which never comes up in these discussions: the very structure of modern churches simply doesn't work. We take small community approaches from a fully Christian society and add an 1880s industrial approach to it. There *is* no Vertical Scaling with the Faith. You can preach to thousands. It is hard to teach a dozen at once. (It took the Apostles 3 years to "get" Jesus was the Messiah. Think about that.)

So a core problem we have, in all of the major branches of the Church, is we want to approach it as a Vertically Integrated Corporation. That's not, nor as ever been, the way the Lord laid out we're supposed to deal with other Christians. That's what destroys Witness and "Growth". You aren't paying a Pastor or Priest to be a Witness for the Lord; they're there to "minister". We completely think about the Church, its Structure and our approach to the Lord in a way that will *always* lead to failure.

Failing to understand what the Lord expects of you is to be expected of a new Christian. Christians repeating the same mistakes for centuries is a catastrophic failure on the part of anyone that's had any leadership position within the church.

Blogger D. Bay May 03, 2017 12:31 PM  

I'm not really religious but this story reminds me of these chestnuts:

When H********* Take Over A Church

BLM Thrown Out of Straight Pride Movement

Blogger Nate May 03, 2017 12:31 PM  

"With all due respect to my Methodist brethren, the convergence has been going on for a long time on y'all. "

its never not been going on. The very first General Conference we had a lesbian committed suicide by jumping off the balcony in the auditorium.

Another lesbian tried it 4 years later at the next general conference but they stopped her.

Like I've said.. we've been fighting this fight for 60 years. we've lost territory but we've never lost the doctrine.

Anonymous Gen. Kong May 03, 2017 12:31 PM  

Nate wrote:
I'm not saying the megachurch thing is a good thing at all. Joel Osteen should be stoned for heresy. But it is very different from SJW convergence.

Not really. These are just farther back along the broad path. Osteen-style negrefication of the service sooner or later leads to the BLM banners over the door. Same goes for Pentecostalist wymyn in the pulpit. Just a slightly different route to the same old death and destruction. Golden Dindu demands the same doctrine that Talmudic Satanists and Judeo-Christ do: No Christianity allowed. YT must die because rayciss.

Blogger Chad Olson May 03, 2017 12:32 PM  

My bro-in-law's wife told me recently she was reluctant to join a church because they didn't allow female ministers or elders. A lengthy discussion ensued. I informed my inlaws I would leave a church that had a female minister or elder. I told them my job was to get as close to what the scripture laid out as possible, and scripture was clear on this point. My mother in law is a Catholic, who is very good at picking and choosing the "loving" parts of the new testament to adhere to, and didn't like at all what I was dropping down. She was scandalized by my comments. My bro-in-law's wife said that the Bible was written in a time when women weren't respected, and while she didn't necessarily want to lead in the church, she wanted the option.

Well, the denouement is that she's been in ongoing negotiations with this church's pastor. In her most recent conversation with him, he and the elders had a change of heart, and the church is going to allow female ministers and elders! Whew. Now, this wasn't enough for her - she's still thinking through whether she wants to join. So, the church converges just a little more to acquiesce to her wishes and wants, and she still won't join. I stifled a laugh.

I told them - regarding the "women weren't respected in the Bible" logic - that women are the most "free" they've ever been in Western society, and are also the least happy. Survey says! This argument didn't land. The impregnable wall for both women was - we want options, the church be damned.

I fully expect this new church she's selected to wither now that they're catering to the whims of nonmembers, whether she joins or not. I am in elected leadership in my church. I watch for the signs, try to hold the line, and am fully prepared to bolt if I see any slippage.

Anonymous Stryker4570 May 03, 2017 12:33 PM  

If I walk into a church and there is a drum set in the chancel or an overhead projector, I immediately leave. No point in wasting my time.

Anonymous AzDesertRat May 03, 2017 12:36 PM  

There is a UCC "church" that sits on a major intersection in the heart of Phoenix that proudly erected a massive (at least 15' x 15') rainbow banner declaring their support for gay marriage. This past Easter they had another banner out front referring to Jesus as "the Cool Dude" or something very similar.

Blogger joek May 03, 2017 12:37 PM  

Osteen epitomizes everything that's wrong with the megachurch movement. Although there is one here in Alabama that's trying (imo) to give him a run for his money.

Anonymous VFM #6306 May 03, 2017 12:38 PM  

Another lesbian tried it 4 years later at the next general conference but they stopped her.

Stop stifling their free expression. If she's right, she can tell you so at the Resurrection.

Anonymous Stryker4570 May 03, 2017 12:39 PM  

Nate, SJW convergence in the Church starts with a shift towards "Church Growth." Once the supposed 'non-essentials' are removed as 'impediments' to growth, the theology begins an inevitable slide as the church growth measures bring in numbers of people unfamiliar with basic doctrines and the Scriptures. These 'newbies' are then used by the leadership to leverage the Church's doctrinal stances. It's kind of an intermediate step to full blown SJW Convergence, but it's Convergence nonetheless.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2017 12:41 PM  

"Osteen epitomizes everything that's wrong with the megachurch movement. Although there is one here in Alabama that's trying (imo) to give him a run for his money. "

Prosperity Gospel is the meth of churchianity.

Blogger haus frau May 03, 2017 12:41 PM  

@9 I have heard masonry is connected with the occult but am not familiar with their specific beliefs. Can you explain why they would be barred from church leadership? I am curious about the specifics.

Anonymous Clay The Swamp Spartan May 03, 2017 12:41 PM  

Lord have mercy. You must be preparing to go on a vacation. Swinging-out the religion seems to be a portent.

Blogger Joshua_D May 03, 2017 12:42 PM  

Several years ago, I was attending and playing in the praise band at a local Souther Baptist Church that had adopted a contemporary worship, no lights though, and it was still relatively small, maybe 300 people altogether. Anyway, the pastor took us to some conference at that big mega church in Anderson, SC, that was led by that alcoholic pastor, Perry something. I remember pulling up to that place and thinking, "What the hell is this?" I remember walking through the halls, past the day care center and coffee stands, it was kind of like a mall, really, and I realized then that I would never attend anything remotely like that place. A few Sunday's later, we had Communion, and the pastor served these pre-wrapped crackers and pre-portioned juices that had little plastic lids on them and I thought, "Yep, I outta here."

Anonymous basementhomebrewer May 03, 2017 12:44 PM  

The impregnable wall for both women was - we want options, the church be damned. This is a common theme with SJW women. They want to destroy someone else's organization and they will do it through pretending they want to be involved in it.

My GF's crazy SJW cousins were shocked when they found out that the men in their work's fantasy football league were made at them for not setting their line-ups. At the beginning of the year these same women made a big deal about how there were no women in the league. The men finally gave way, split their league and incorporated women into the two new leagues. The women promptly quit maintaining their teams after the initial draft. My GF asked her cousin why she fought so hard to join the league if she wasn't interested in actually participating. Her response was the ever present "I just thought I deserved the option".

Anonymous Gen. Kong May 03, 2017 12:44 PM  

Dack Thrombosis wrote:
Heretics always compound their heresies, eventually. Every protestant church is a heresy. What's surprising is that it took so long. Of course, the Catholic Church started down the path of heresy with Vatican II so they're hardly safe. Outside of the traditionalists, and frankly I don't know much about their ins and outs, is there any True Church now?

That's a decent point as the splits within the church kind of opened the door for Satan's handiwork to flourish, but considering the RCC is now owned by George Soros, they might as well add rainbow minarets to St. Peters and be done with it. Vatican II was absolutely the fatal poison (Nostra aetate in particular). Any pope who failed to reject it was apostate. This point seems lost on Barnhardt and some other traditionalists who are still clinging to the carcass. Orthodoxy isn't in the greatest shape either, though some national churches are better off than others.

Blogger Whisker biscuit May 03, 2017 12:47 PM  

On this topic......

My wife's family runs a big church in our area. It was 100% white rural folk. He got on stage once and made pleas (he's the worship leader) for more blacks to attend. This was two years ago. I recently went back to watch a play. There were several black guys around, all dating white girls from the congregation. What's funny is the worship leader is against race mixing. Now it's not only in his flock, but in his family. One of the mud sharks is his sister. Her new dindu, an ex-con with 3 kids.

Blogger Deplorable May 03, 2017 12:50 PM  

It started with the little things that we went along with because, how much could it hurt right?

They may be small things, but they matter. Over time, many small things add up to something big.

Blogger Joshua_D May 03, 2017 12:51 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous VFM #7916 May 03, 2017 12:52 PM  

Antiochian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, etc.

I've become disgusted with the undisciplined spiritualism of protestant and evangelical type churches, just as people were disgusted by the lack of spirituality of the "rational" or mechanistic churches, i.e. catholicism.

Discipline, tradition, and spirituality is what I'm seeking, in a balanced combination. So, examining Orthodox churches next.

Anonymous Orville May 03, 2017 12:52 PM  

As a practical matter, the major issues reach back to the early 1800s for a lot of theological shifts. Looking Glass is right. Textual criticism, the acceptance of psychology and psychiatry as substitute theories for man's depraved nature. It all started unwinding the second half of the 19th century.

Even in the world of independent baptists, there are still "fellowships" where independent pastors engage in dick measuring, i.e. who has the biggest congregation or biggest shiny facility.

Anonymous Faceless May 03, 2017 12:55 PM  

@32 A local reformed protestant radio host addressed this not too long ago, and he used the behavior of the defenders as his justification.

His premise - since Masonry apes the tradition and rituals of Christianity, it is inappropriate. Fraternal organization with silly rituals like the Proud Boys "five cereals" - sure, no problem. Pretending it's worship, and praying to "some god", when you should know to whom you are praying, crosses the line.

Caller after caller claimed that they learned more about Christianity and "true Christianity" - about doing good works and being helpful and giving to the poor and being in fellowship with friends - from Masons and Eastern Star than from Church attendance, but, simultaneously argued that Masonry had nothing to do with attempting to teach religion in general or Christianity in particular.

This was his point - since they specifically blur all these boundaries, and based on the testimony of Masons and Eastern Star women, they do teach religion while denying it, they are false teachers, and they would be better just being a social club with secrets without pretending to teach "spirituality".

Blogger Cail Corishev May 03, 2017 12:56 PM  

Sounds a lot like what happened in Catholic parishes after Vatican II. The thing is, at first many did naively think that it would bring lots of new people to the faith. Replace the organ and chant with guitars and contemporary music to bring in the youth, etc. But when the opposite happened, with priests, religious, and lay people alike leaving in droves, they never once said, "Whoa, that was a mistake, let's put it back like it was."

That's how you know it was never about reaching new people, either in a true Christian sense of spreading the faith or in the simple economic sense of filling the pews and paying the bills. (If you see a full Catholic church today, it's likely because a few others in the area were closed in the last thirty years, herding everyone into the surviving one.) It was about the ideological and theological changes they were committed to making, and they've only doubled down on those since. The Catholic population in town has gone from 50% to 20%, but they've never once admitted any of it was a mistake.

There's one parish in town that says the Latin Mass and tries to adhere to pre-Vatican II Catholicism, but even it struggles with entryism. Even in a traditional congregation where many women wear veils and most people homeschool and so on, you'll get people wanting to make exceptions for this and that -- especially anything that has to do with the feels of women and girls -- because that's just what they're used to nowadays.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2017 12:59 PM  

" have heard masonry is connected with the occult but am not familiar with their specific beliefs. Can you explain why they would be barred from church leadership? I am curious about the specifics."

its fascinating to see these people take catholic propaganda so seriously when they view the catholics as heretical.

Anonymous Faceless May 03, 2017 1:00 PM  

@32

I read a book once by two guys who claimed to be pro-Mason, and to be quite high in degree to be told the real secrets, and they were said to have had approval to explain a little bit more from under the covers. Fundamentally, they claimed the Hebrews, being the Hyksos, stole the secrets of escaping divine punishment from the true Old Egyptian religion, and that Hyram Abiff (who is linked linguistically with the King of Tyre in the OT), architect of the Temple of Solomon, was one of three people who knew the mysteries of the religion, and that he was killed because he wouldn't share the mysteries without being permitted by the other two. However, like most Masonic things, it could just be a giant joke with the trappings of religion.

Blogger Nate73 May 03, 2017 1:00 PM  

@35: Is that part of the problem with women serving in leadership roles in the church? I grew up Lutheran and I'm familiar with some churches allowing women to work as ministers but the one I went to never did that I know of.

What exactly is the problem with hiring women in a church context? I've been keeping up with alphagame and the problems there range from harassment claims to a fear of disciplining female employees (lest you be called sexist). Do those apply in a church context though? Full disclosure: The church I'm going to now is run by a married couple who take turns delivering sermons, but it's a small town thing so it's not converged... I guess?

Blogger joek May 03, 2017 1:10 PM  

Amen brother. And I'm stealing that line.

Blogger J A Baker May 03, 2017 1:11 PM  

When a new church forms they need to write down and preserve their statement of faith based upon the fundamental essential doctrines of the Christian faith and from this establish their rules and laws and follow the examples of the New Testament Churches. Once this is done it needs to be proclaimed that if at any time in the future any of these doctrines, laws or rules are compromised the Church is to be disbanded, all property sold and all monies and assets evenly distributed to members of faithful attendance of more than a decade.

Blogger Rory Porth May 03, 2017 1:11 PM  

can anyone show me denominationalism or 'church membership' in scripture?

anyone?

Anonymous patrick kelly May 03, 2017 1:12 PM  

VFM #7916 wrote:Antiochian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, etc.....
Discipline, tradition, and spirituality is what I'm seeking, in a balanced combination. So, examining Orthodox churches next.


Antiochian Orthodox here.

Take things slow. Be patient to hear and slow to speak or react, both to the Orthodox and their critics.

IMAO and experience observing a vespers service or liturgy will answer questions in your heart before you even know to ask them. It is not possible to become Orthodox by argument or debate. You must come, taste and see.

I'll suggest finding a primarily english speaking, active community, but even at a more ethnic parish in another language you will hear, see and understand much.

Blogger artensoll May 03, 2017 1:13 PM  

God bless you.

Anonymous Tipsy May 03, 2017 1:13 PM  

Chad Olson wrote:
I told them - regarding the "women weren't respected in the Bible" logic - that women are the most "free" they've ever been in Western society, and are also the least happy.


The truth is that Western women, historically, were both loved and free, at least in the Christian sense of love, which requires self-sacrifice, and free, which requires moral restraint.

If you've ever read the Chrysostom, a Church Father, on marriage couldn't possibly come to any other conclusion. Other historians, like Regine Pernoud, show, in fact, how women's freedoms in Medieval times were curtailed to some extent by the reintroduction of elements of pagan civil law from Roman times.

The propaganda promulgated by progressives declares that all of the past was hopelessly disordered and corrupt before the progressives' "new direction". Some of it is from the gnostical mass movements like communism and positivism and atheist humanism, others from the anti-clericalism of the "enlightenment".

It is, however, all built upon a foundation of lies with one aim: to turn society from the way, the truth, and the light.

Blogger VD May 03, 2017 1:15 PM  

What exactly is the problem with hiring women in a church context?

Read the New Testament. Or look at the declining membership over time of every church that permits it. Both theory and practice concur.

Anonymous Athor Pel May 03, 2017 1:16 PM  

"32. Blogger haus frau May 03, 2017 12:41 PM
@9 I have heard masonry is connected with the occult but am not familiar with their specific beliefs. Can you explain why they would be barred from church leadership? I am curious about the specifics.
"



Mostly it's about the secrecy. They keep their practices and beliefs secret.

They also take oaths that take precedence over everything. EVERYTHING. Let the implications of that sink in.

Keeping secrets means lying to everyone not in on the secrets, friends and family included. It is as simple as that. Institutionally enforced lying erodes the morals as surely as water erodes stone.

It boils down to having no reason or way to trust them. Masonry having an organizational history that engenders active distrust doesn't help either.

Blogger Cloudswrest May 03, 2017 1:16 PM  

"And finally there came the raiding of the saving account that the giving of the faithful had stored up over a hundred and twenty five years."

Ain't that the truth. Any organization with substantial liquid assets is a prime target to be plundered. Officers get elected who want to USE it for their own pet projects, or to funnel it to provide work for their contractor friends, etc.

Anonymous Looking Glass May 03, 2017 1:18 PM  

@46 Nate73

There's the Theological discussions that one can go around & around about (but Genesis 3 mostly covers it), but, at the practical level, *all* Women are compromisers by nature. That's the way they survive. It's an instinct that is impossible for them to hold in check for very long.

There is no compromise with the core Tenets of the Faith. They're hard; they're harsh. And the harshest parts don't serve a Woman's feelings. They'll always eventually fall to the "how much can it hurt to try?" fallacy. This is why Women ruin everything that they end up in the sole leadership of. The levels of basic consistency that one would expect of a normal Man is a nearly impossible task for a Woman.

Consequently, Women make great social enforcers of doctrine. That serves their instinctual interests and aligns with Faith nicely, on the assumption the leaders enforce doctrine & order within the flock.

A Woman can, on rare occasional, deliver a proper sermon. But, let me ruin them for you, listen for the point where she fluffs her own Vanity. It's the "look how special I am!" line. The better ones can hold it for a while, but it *always* shows up. Women cannot fully abstract from their own experiences. The Lord didn't make them that way. So part of allowing Women into Leadership is actually setting them up to fail. And lose their Souls.

Groovy job, failures of self-proclaimed Christians. Groovy.

Blogger Sam Lively May 03, 2017 1:18 PM  

@3

A good insight, though the women and deacon and elders plank in the OP's story suggests an SJW-wing of this particular convergence.

And it's an important insight, because some of the reaction to uber-shallow mega-churchism carries its own threat of convergence.

I've seen this a lot among the Evangelicals I grew up with. They start to feel ashamed of the cheeseball youth group culture (laser tag for Jesus!) around their college years, go through a wilderness period of existential crisis, and then come out on the other end with newfound love of either medieval orthodoxy or systematic theology.

Problem is, the salesmen targeting the post-college younglings tend to be massive cuckservatives (see John Piper). In some senses they're just high-brow, pop intellectual versions of the Osteens, going after educated middle-class hipster types in the same way Osteen goes after working-class, self-employed types.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd May 03, 2017 1:19 PM  

Nate73 wrote:What exactly is the problem with hiring women in a church context? I've been keeping up with alphagame and the problems there range from harassment claims to a fear of disciplining female employees (lest you be called sexist). Do those apply in a church context though? Full disclosure: The church I'm going to now is run by a married couple who take turns delivering sermons, but it's a small town thing so it's not converged... I guess?

Hiring women? That causes the church the same problems any organization would have with hiring women. It's not a show stopper, but there are some little risks.

Putting women into positions of power - elder or deacon or pastor or such? That is apostasy, because God forbade it.

Your little church is apostate.

Deplorable wrote:They may be small things, but they matter. Over time, many small things add up to something big.

See Luke 6:10.

Blogger VD May 03, 2017 1:22 PM  

But, let me ruin them for you, listen for the point where she fluffs her own Vanity.

Before I refused to sit through any such sermons anymore, I used to amuse myself by counting the "I"s.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer May 03, 2017 1:23 PM  

Nate73 wrote:@35: Is that part of the problem with women serving in leadership roles in the church? I grew up Lutheran and I'm familiar with some churches allowing women to work as ministers but the one I went to never did that I know of.

What exactly is the problem with hiring women in a church context? I've been keeping up with alphagame and the problems there range from harassment claims to a fear of disciplining female employees (lest you be called sexist). Do those apply in a church context though? Full disclosure: The church I'm going to now is run by a married couple who take turns delivering sermons, but it's a small town thing so it's not converged... I guess?


That is one of the problems but not all. The first and foremost issue is that the NT proscribes the roles of men and women in worship. Particularly in Corinthians and Timothy.

Blogger haus frau May 03, 2017 1:24 PM  

My husband and I belong to a traditional Baptist church. It is really quite small. I'd say about 100 adults on a given Sunday and most well into middle age. I have had a growing disgust with the service for the past few years. I don't know if they permit women on the church board but the men in leadership have crafted a decidedly effeminate service. The long time music leader is an older man with an effimenate voice. No lisp but I'd guess him gay by his voice and the inflections he uses when he speaks. He often gets up to speak about this or that missions trip and always chokes up and breaks down in tears on stage. No he doesn't step aside to gather him self up like a normal man. He continues to talk through the crying about the spirit of God in the beautiful Mexican children he witnessed to. Absolutely unmanly and undignified.
The pastor has been playing more dramatic videos on the overhead screen. On Easter he played a short video featuring Mary Magdalene bawling through her saccharine sweet sentimental testimony of the mysterious man who made her feel loved..... The whole service, worship band and all is geared toward post menopausal women. There is nothing in that display that would entice a normal, masculine Christian man to seek leadership in that church let alone attend regularly. I go because the doctrine in the children's church is pretty straight forward and the kids get a lot out of it but there is good reason church membership is older.

Blogger Rory Porth May 03, 2017 1:26 PM  

1 Timothy 2:14King James Version (KJV)

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
==========

1 Timothy 2:14New American Standard Bible (NASB)

14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, [a]fell into transgression.

Blogger Joshua_D May 03, 2017 1:27 PM  

I ascribe the majority of the convergence in the church to having paid pastors and paid staff in general.

Anonymous Looking Glass May 03, 2017 1:27 PM  

@59 VD

Once you can hear it, it always sticks out. I remember listening to one where I was amazed there hadn't been any. Slipped it in as part of the last 20s of the sermon.

Blogger Joshua_D May 03, 2017 1:27 PM  

A man can't serve two masters, and all that.

Anonymous fop May 03, 2017 1:28 PM  

@44

It's not propaganda, it's personal experience. They target churches like wolves in sheep's clothing. Now when I get that tingle on the back of my neck about somebody, the first thing I look for is the ring.

Anonymous TLM May 03, 2017 1:31 PM  

In lieu of Psalm 14:2-3 & Romans 3:10-12, I find churches developing and utilizing the 'seeker friendly' model quite amusing.

"Single moms are today's orphans & widows", I heard a churchian pastor make this claim to a congregation once. Churches have moved on from the seeker model to pretty much being all pozzed at this point.

Anonymous Think May 03, 2017 1:31 PM  

@56

You are plain bonkers.

You are pathological. You just invented data, behavior, out of whole cloth and are now trying to sell it to us.

VD, apparently, feels the same way. Well, he has always had an ability to make up a complete fabrication and stick to it with remarkable tenacity insisting that he sees things that others can't because of his (alleged) IQ advantage that is no where to be seen.

But, for some reason, I didn't expect you to do the same.

Anonymous Tipsy May 03, 2017 1:33 PM  

Cail Corishev wrote:Sounds a lot like what happened in Catholic parishes after Vatican II.

In my tiny rural Catholic church, they brought in a 70ish nun to cantor at the vigil mass. She either sings what my daughter calls "hippy songs" or misappropriates a southern spiritual to horrific effect. I typically don't sing along. When she does sign a hymn, like "Lift High the Cross", I belt it out. The funny thing is at the end of mass she has made some snarky comment about why people seem to only sing the hymns.

Ugh.

On Vatican II, I tend to side with Peter Stravinskas, namely that if you read the documents, you'll not find much support for what the Spirit of Vatican II folks implemented in the Western world. VII was a crack in the window that allowed that pneuma to enter into the Church. And that pneuma is certainly not Christian.

Also, I think you and others made a comment a few weeks ago that you'd gladly have a beer with any Christian who is faithful to his creed, and struggles, as St. Thomas Moore would have it, to "Serve God wittily in the tangle of his mind". Sign me up for that. I find myself often in more agreement with the Jack Hayfords and David Jeremiahs of the world than with the heretics in my own church, huffing and puffing to keep up with the spirit of our age.

Blogger SouthRon May 03, 2017 1:35 PM  

I almost mistook Nate73 for Nate and was shaking my head.

Women not preaching is a pretty simple precept laid out in the New Testament. I've heard the argument that pastorettes are under the headship of their husband when they preach and it doesn't fly. You are still placing the other men in the church under a woman and pardon me but I'm not letting any other man under my wife. Yes the image being played out in the service is that absurd and portrays a serious spiritual problem that of the Church having headship or preeminance over Christ.

The older I become the more I'm inclined to take "let your women remain silent" absolutely. I'm starting to think letting them teach Sunday school to children, especially boys, is a mistake. Men need to be providing the leadership and guidance to our youth.

The problem I have with female secretarial staff is I've seen too many pastors fall to that temptation. There may be a reason beyond the cultural why Paul's scribes and assistants were all men.

In church as in the home women are there to help, not lead.

Blogger VD May 03, 2017 1:36 PM  

You are plain bonkers.

It's always amusing to observe how women who are offended that women are not permitted to teach in the Church so promptly rush to demonstrate to all and sundry why women are not permitted to teach in the Church.

Anonymous Looking Glass May 03, 2017 1:37 PM  

@66 fop

I think there's a level of "both" to this. Some of the anti-Mason propaganda stretches back to when they were, well, a Guild of Masons. They were a power center because of the Trust Circle they established, which was a danger to those in Power. That quite a few revolutions happened out of Fraternal Orders isn't surprising.

At the same time, that was, in some cases, centuries ago. If organizations are still around after several centuries they are, without a doubt, completely converged. So while most of what they're up to is pretty benign, the reality is that they will always infest any organization they're in with anti-Christian worship.

Also, they're far more active in certain areas over others. Something that probably should come up more.

Blogger Sagramore May 03, 2017 1:39 PM  

Then came the eradication of the clauses in the Bylaws about prohibiting members of the Masons to be elders

I sure hope my PCIC friend got his remit. Of course his wife is also a minister in that church too so perhaps there are other structural problems. Both godly people and good friends.

@1 I was baptized in a school gymnasium. Worked for me.

Anonymous VFM #6306 May 03, 2017 1:42 PM  

Masonry "requires of its members a belief in God as part of the obligation of every responsible adult" but it also does not allow proselytizing other Masons.

Because of this requirement, Masons can theoretically be in conflict with the Great Commission. For example, since they shouldn't invite another Mason to follow Christ, they have to do some gymnastics (at best) as an elder.

Now, this is a bit of a moot point if every local Mason is already Christian and they disregard the legal ritual requirements and oaths, but that is exactly why some churches prohibit Masonic leadership.

Blogger J A Baker May 03, 2017 1:42 PM  

And whenever one of these converged churches hires a new pastor its always someone from away. This to me seems wrong. When a pastor of a church leaves there should be a man within that congregation who has been preparing to step into the role. If there are no men prepared to take on the role of a pastor in a church, well it's too late, your church is dead.

Anonymous Athor Pel May 03, 2017 1:42 PM  

"49. Blogger Rory Porth May 03, 2017 1:11 PM
can anyone show me denominationalism or 'church membership' in scripture?
anyone?
"


I'm not gonna tell you anything about denominations, they are beside the point. I'm gonna tell you about the early church.

Read through Acts, it's all there. The church is all local and led by the Holy Spirit. Human hierarchy if any exists is created by the Holy Spirit as the church has need.

Church discipline was handled by the Holy Spirit as well. The story of Ananias and Sapphira is The Illustration of it. The apostles did not hesitate to call out sin when they saw it. The unrepentant were expelled and socially shunned.

To become an active member in a local church took a significant time of discipleship which could take years.

The other New Testament books also have many examples of how the early church operated. In fact comparing how the early church acted in scripture to our own church is usually quite humbling.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd May 03, 2017 1:43 PM  

VD wrote:What exactly is the problem with hiring women in a church context?

Read the New Testament. Or look at the declining membership over time of every church that permits it. Both theory and practice concur.


Yes, when I sort of defended hiring women, I was thinking of hiring a book keeper or a janitor or receptionist or some such.

Anonymous Looking Glass May 03, 2017 1:44 PM  

@71 VD

I'm more impressed because I've never seen that person comment and this isn't my normal "haunt". It's one thing to attempt shaming another that you know. Now she's trying to shame someone who's first response is "who are you?".

A Woman's instant response to the Truth about the way Women operate was clearly the first bot-script ever created. Our Lord, the original programmer.

Anonymous J. J. May 03, 2017 1:45 PM  

Prosperity Gospel is the meth of churchianity

It is... and hard to believe anyone still follows it now that the light's been shined on these rodents for several decades now. The crass "Jesus gonna buy me a Cadillac" prosperity gospel seems easy to spot. Although some people still follow that path, Satan has had to adjust slightly for others. Joel Osteen is the prosperity gospel repackaged in a less blatant way.

Even more concerning are the subtler movements in evangelicalism... where a "Vision Casting Leader" (the term pastor is now forbidden!) reads a bunch of books on "church growth strategy" so they can advertise for people to come in and have their "felt needs" met at a "seeker sensitive" church. Preaching is no longer preaching the word of God but a therapy session to "meet people where they are" (like Jesus did!). Preaching the bad news to sinners (that they are, in fact, sinners) in order to set up to give them the Good News that there is hope for their greatest problem, is simply not something today's "relational" generation relates to. Gospel, shmospel... they need to build their self-esteem!

When laid out like that, the contemporary vanilla evangelical church sounds pretty lame, too, but it can be a lot subtler than flat out Prosperity Gospel churches and has reeled in a surprising amount of people I know I consider pretty serious believers.

Blogger VD May 03, 2017 1:45 PM  

Of course his wife is also a minister in that church too so perhaps there are other structural problems. Both godly people....

You're not noticing the contradiction there?

Blogger Chris Lutz May 03, 2017 1:45 PM  

@32 You can't even be a member in the LCMS if you are a Mason or part of a similar group. They require oaths that conflict with church doctrine.

Blogger CM May 03, 2017 1:46 PM  

Nate wrote:I'm not saying the megachurch thing is a good thing at all. Joel Osteen should be stoned for heresy. But it is very different from SJW convergence.

I spent Easter Sunday at one of these churches. I spent the majority of the service wanting to cry or being irritable and irate. My mother-in-law loves it because she hates hymns. Its my sister-in-law's church and she was singing solos that day. The men don't really care, though my husband is more on target and saw everything I saw.

We attended a concert. It was referred to as a "production." There were 5 lines of scripture read and the stupid church couldn't even remember to take off the purple cloth from their cross. There was no liturgy, no communion, and 2 Hillsong songs that the congregation sang together in a 90 minute service.

I never ever want to attend that church again. But I know I will, because we swap which family we spend holidays with every year.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 03, 2017 1:46 PM  

They start to feel ashamed of the cheeseball youth group culture

"Youth group" is an invention of the 1960's. Created by a couple of 20-something guys, Mike Yaconelli and Wayne Rice. The core group is still going. "Youth group" is all about feelz and good times, not the Bible. It's to make being Christian fun and relevant, even though Christ told us plain that it could be very painful and the world would hate us.

Youth group is a failed concept. Probably failed from the start. Something like 60% to 70% of teens who grow up in a church leave their religion sometime in their college years. There's a metric for you , 60% failure rate so MOAR is needed.

Modern churchianity. So much fail.

Anonymous Christically Bent May 03, 2017 1:47 PM  

@49
"can anyone show me denominationalism or 'church membership' in scripture?

anyone?"

Denominationalism is anathema to Christ's prayer for his followers in the Garden of Gethsemane.

However, church membership is actually reflected in Matthew in the passage about church discipline. It isn't called that, but Christ does instruct believers to basically keep a list (perhaps just mental) of who is a 'member in good standing' so to speak and who should be treated as an unbeliever.

When you've gone through the whole set of steps of disciplining a brother or sister in Christ and they have not repented, then you are called to basically remove them from the list and treat them like they are not Christians.

Blogger Phelps May 03, 2017 1:48 PM  

Meanwhile, my Presbyterian church decided that the Lord's Supper was getting too flip, and stopped playing music, with instructions to pray silently and reflect Christ's sacrifice while the sacrament is being served.

Anonymous Iacobus May 03, 2017 1:48 PM  

Whenever the subject of women in the Church gets brought up, I'm always reminded of a figure like Hildegard von Bingen. She was unique; one of a kind. As in, "Probably never gonna happen again." It was probably because of her perspective; always focused on the metaphysical rather than the physical.

Going on my own experiences with the Church, I can't help but feel...alienated. And that's OK, as far as I'm concerned. We were warned we would be hated for who we are. (And, yes, that includes people who call themselves, "Christian," including a certain idiot who calls himself Pope.) To be honest, I've never felt as close to God as I do now.

Anonymous Stickwick May 03, 2017 1:51 PM  

When I was in the process of becoming Christian, we went to a small, rural Lutheran church in a heavily Scandinavian part of Texas. The relatively new pastor was a masculine Norwegian man who'd replaced the female pastor the congregation had driven out a couple of years prior. We took that as a good sign. The church itself is a beautiful 150 year-old structure, built in the old Scandinavian style. It's so stunning that Terrence Malick chose it for some scenes in his movie, Tree of Life. The music was 100% centered on classic hymns, and they had proper communions.

We loved everything about this church, but it quickly became apparent that the progressive rot in the ELCA had already set in. When the ELCA decided to allow actively homosexual clergy into the church, the congregation was split on whether the church would remain a part of ELCA. Sadly, it decided to stay. Very disappointing, considering this was a congregation that had rejected a female pastor.

Blogger haus frau May 03, 2017 1:51 PM  

@54 "They also take oaths that take precedence over everything. EVERYTHING. Let the implications of that sink in."

Now that makes complete sense even aside from the fact that the biblical teaching is not fond of oath taking in general.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd May 03, 2017 1:52 PM  

VFM #6306 wrote:Masonry "requires of its members a belief in God as part of the obligation of every responsible adult" but it also does not allow proselytizing other Masons.

My father was a Mason. He told me that Masons were required to believe in some god, but any god would do.

I have never known a Mason who was born again. Every Mason I have known seemed to be side tracked from God by the Masonic teachings and works.

Blogger CM May 03, 2017 1:53 PM  

Looking Glass wrote:@46 Nate73

There's the Theological discussions that one can go around & around about (but Genesis 3 mostly covers it), but, at the practical level, *all* Women are compromisers by nature. That's the way they survive. It's an instinct that is impossible for them to hold in check for very long.

There is no compromise with the core Tenets of the Faith. They're hard; they're harsh. And the harshest parts don't serve a Woman's feelings. They'll always eventually fall to the "how much can it hurt to try?" fallacy. This is why Women ruin everything that they end up in the sole leadership of. The levels of basic consistency that one would expect of a normal Man is a nearly impossible task for a Woman.

Consequently, Women make great social enforcers of doctrine. That serves their instinctual interests and aligns with Faith nicely, on the assumption the leaders enforce doctrine & order within the flock.

A Woman can, on rare occasional, deliver a proper sermon. But, let me ruin them for you, listen for the point where she fluffs her own Vanity. It's the "look how special I am!" line. The better ones can hold it for a while, but it *always* shows up. Women cannot fully abstract from their own experiences. The Lord didn't make them that way. So part of allowing Women into Leadership is actually setting them up to fail. And lose their Souls.

Groovy job, failures of self-proclaimed Christians. Groovy.


I've noticed this about myself (see, I'm doing it right now!) Is this a bad thing that should be suppressed or is it just something that makes us unsuitable for leadership? I tend to always communicate with personal life experiences... not so much to puff myself up as much as to make myself relatable or apply what I'm saying to real life.

Is there a proper place for this outside of leadership? I suppose it isn't necessary for men to hear my life experiences and this is what makes us capable of communicating well with other women?

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 03, 2017 1:54 PM  

@78 Looking Glass
I'm more impressed because I've never seen that person comment and this isn't my normal "haunt".

Oh, I bet you have seen her comment under other names, and not just here.

Blogger D. Bay May 03, 2017 1:55 PM  

"37. Whisker biscuit May 03, 2017 12:47 PM
On this topic......

My wife's family runs a big church in our area. It was 100% white rural folk. He got on stage once and made pleas (he's the worship leader) for more blacks to attend. This was two years ago. I recently went back to watch a play. There were several black guys around, all dating white girls from the congregation. What's funny is the worship leader is against r*** mixing. Now it's not only in his flock, but in his family. One of the m** sharks is his sister. Her new d****, an ex-con with 3 kids."

Huh. Go figure. Well, if you build it (or preach it) they will come and all that.

I'm sure family get togethers and holiday dinners are now much more fun and vibrant now for them.

Anonymous Looking Glass May 03, 2017 1:55 PM  

@76 Athor Pel

Well, it's also important to remember that quite a lot of the Early Church didn't last too long. Paul's Letters make it pretty clear that "screwing up everything you touch" is the de facto stance of all Churches. When you finally are able to read the Letters as both the Inspired Word and the discourse of a Man having to deal with people, it really comes to light how quickly things can go bad.

Oh, and that Paul would appreciate if a few of the fools just chopped their privates off. That part always gets me. (Galatians 5:12) Though Paul was being a little more coy in his usage. Mostly as it would be a play on "cutting off" in Greek. People forget that there were SJWs in 1st Century Asia Minor.

Anonymous Christically Bent May 03, 2017 1:56 PM  

@83

"even though Christ told us plain that it could be very painful and the world would hate us."

This. Christ isn't appealing to the World.

I like Ray Comfort's analogy to a man on an airplane.

(Paraphrasing him)

A man's on a plane and is told that at some point during the flight, the engines are going to cut out, and the plane is going to crash. He is then handed a parachute.

Another man is told that everything is fine, the airline has a terrific safety record, and that to complete the experience of flying, he should take this parachute.

None of the other passengers are told anything. When they see the men with the parachutes, they start mocking them and making fun of them. When the men sit down, the parachutes get in the way and make sitting uncomfortable at best.

How are those two men going to treat their parachutes?

Anonymous Crew May 03, 2017 1:56 PM  

The Cross is the most important symbol of Christianity, IMO.

Judeo-Christ may have died in a gas chamber, but Jesus Christ died on a cross at Calvary:

https://infogalactic.com/info/Calvary

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 03, 2017 1:58 PM  

CM
2 Hillsong songs

That would be my cue to get up and walk out the door.

Blogger Lazarus May 03, 2017 1:59 PM  

Galatians 5:9 covers the whole convergence thing in one sentence.

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Anonymous Stickwick May 03, 2017 2:00 PM  

We now go to a non-denominational church that's pretty solid, except for that treacly me-centered music that's infested nearly every non-denominational church like a plague.

I understand the desire to make the church modern and relevant, but there's no reason the worship music can't be a modern take on the classic God- and Jesus-centered hymns. I was at a downtown Austin church last weekend that did a beautiful country and western rendition of "How Great Thou Art." Would love to hear more of that.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 03, 2017 2:01 PM  

@49
"can anyone show me denominationalism or 'church membership' in scripture?

Denominations are factions, and factions are inevitable because men are sinful. Christians are still told to belong to a local body of believers. That body will be full of imperfect people just like you, so there will be friction. If you find a perfect church, don't expect them to let you join.

Blogger Lazarus May 03, 2017 2:02 PM  

Crew wrote:The Cross is the most important symbol of Christianity, IMO.

And there are zero crosses in the Pope's reception hall.

Blogger Koanic May 03, 2017 2:04 PM  

You guys are acting like Jehovah isn't down with Goddess worship.

We will burn incense to the queen of heaven!

Mmm, feel the shekinah glory.

Anonymous Urban II May 03, 2017 2:04 PM  

Rod Dreher is correct:

Any Christian individual, church, or organization that does not understand itself as orthodox and live accordingly will sooner or later become heterodox.

Blogger CM May 03, 2017 2:04 PM  

Stickwick wrote:We loved everything about this church, but it quickly became apparent that the progressive rot in the ELCA had already set in. When the ELCA decided to allow actively homosexual clergy into the church, the congregation was split on whether the church would remain a part of ELCA. Sadly, it decided to stay. Very disappointing, considering this was a congregation that had rejected a female pastor.

Is there something wrong with this? In the Episcopal church, a very small minority of the churches that broke off have been successful in stemming the rot. For instance (real life example incoming), the church I grew up in split - my parents went with the rector to a new church where my dad served on the vestry as treasurer. Instead of investing in the ministries in his own church, the rector kept demanding money to be sent to the old church's associated school, I'm guessing to attract the wealthy members of the city to come to his new church.

Eventually, my parents left and returned to their old church (still part of the Episcopal church) where the current rector is constantly coming under fire for refusing to cater to minorities in his church. "His church is for white people" (I'm getting this 2nd hand from a SJW-lite). If minorities want to worship there, that's fine, but he isn't changing his service to accommodate them.

Blogger Paul R May 03, 2017 2:08 PM  

Whenever I see a big church that obviously took out a loan for the building, I just see a giant money transfer from 'christians' to jews. Also, when a church takes out a loan they have to start extorting money from the congregation to make their payments. This extortion can be subtle, but it's always there if you look for it.

Anonymous Broken Arrow May 03, 2017 2:09 PM  

"Therefore by their fruits you will know them".

Since we can argue specific doctrines, history, practice, and particulars all day the best test is this right here. At the end of the day judge the fruit of any church and it will tell you if they are a Christian church or something else.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 03, 2017 2:11 PM  

CM
I've noticed this about myself (see, I'm doing it right now!) Is this a bad thing that should be suppressed or is it just something that makes us unsuitable for leadership? I tend to always communicate with personal life experiences... not so much to puff myself up as much as to make myself relatable or apply what I'm saying to real life.

It's something about women that makes them poorly suited to leadership. That relational side of you makes everything personal. Feminists encode this as "The personal is political".

Is there a proper place for this outside of leadership? I suppose it isn't necessary for men to hear my life experiences and this is what makes us capable of communicating well with other women?

Of course there is a proper place for this. Any fellowship time will benefit from that relational touch. Evangelism door to door, or at the local farmer's market, or anywhere. Deacons are to care for the widows, but it's often comforting to widows when women of the church bring them a meal or just spend time together with them. Who is best suited to bring meals and fellowship to new mothers, to the recently bereaved, to the sick? Women of the church under the authority of the deacons. God gave different skills to men and women, it's foolish to try to pretend otherwise.

Blogger Cail Corishev May 03, 2017 2:11 PM  

On Vatican II, I tend to side with Peter Stravinskas, namely that if you read the documents, you'll not find much support for what the Spirit of Vatican II folks implemented in the Western world.

I used to believe that too, until I started researching the documents and comparisons of them with prior teaching for myself. It's true that the Modernists ran with them and added far more innovations, making things that were allowed, such as vernacular in the liturgy, the norm. But the documents themselves are a clear break with Catholicism, in some cases being nearly word-for-word opposite of what went before. There's no "interpreting them in the light of tradition" like many traditionalists hope.

Also, Vatican II didn't happen centuries ago, so we don't have to guess what they meant by it. Some of them are still alive, so we can simply ask them, and they've told us what it means through further writing and preaching about it. We can also look at their actions -- if they hadn't intended it to change everything so radically, why did they go back to their dioceses and start implementing those radical changes? The same bishops who voted for it implemented it. If they only meant it as a pastoral improvement on the way the faith was practiced and taught, why did it immediately require a new liturgy, new prayers, new bible translation, new vestments, new music, new architecture, new saints, new devotions, new everything? No, they acted like they were creating a new religion because they were creating a new religion.

But I'm up for that beer any time. (Actually, beer is almost essential for discussions about this, if they go very long.)

Anonymous patrick kelly May 03, 2017 2:12 PM  

" I'm starting to think letting them teach Sunday school to children, especially boys, is a mistake. Men need to be providing the leadership and guidance to our youth. "

I still feel deep pain and regret for all the crap I allowed my son to endure. Lord have mercy.

I have seen women do a good work teaching children's classes at our parish, but they are under very tight authority and supervision by men, some working directly with them in the classes.

Anonymous Anchorman May 03, 2017 2:13 PM  

Is there a proper place for this outside of leadership?

Women can counsel and train other women within the church.

Blogger Ingot9455 May 03, 2017 2:14 PM  

@89 Masonry is Wicca for Republicans.

Blogger Sheila4g May 03, 2017 2:15 PM  

All these things echo my memories of our church of more than a dozen years, which we left about 10 years ago. More and more "praise and worship" songs in the mix and fewer hymns. More influence of and solos by the subtly homosexual music director. More and more "I"s in the sermons and "opening up" about his feelings because female members found it made him so much more approachable. More and more "diversity outreach" and the bringing in of social justice causes to "enrich" the gospels. Going from women volunteers to women deacons to women priests. At the time we last attended, they still used hymn books and had no overhead in the main church {but did in the smaller chapel} but I'd be surprised if it's not there now. The Church of Nice is an abomination.

Blogger Quadko May 03, 2017 2:16 PM  

I'm still figuring out all the places to apply it, but some supported sociology research ("The Triumph of Faith" Dr. Rodney Stark) say that groups - churches or even the previous VD Nascar post - that have strong identity grow, and weak identity fade. If there is little difference between being a member of the group or not, first you won't have participating members, then you won't have any members.

Us vs. Them (even if both are "good") and requirements of membership are healthy and helpful for thriving organizations. It sounds familiar to other stuff we talk about: Drive to the extremes causes excitement and growth, drive toward the moderate middle causes multiple types of death: death of group effectiveness and then membership. It's a truth of humans, and can be used for good or ill.

Anonymous Stickwick May 03, 2017 2:17 PM  

CM: Eventually, my parents left and returned to their old church (still part of the Episcopal church) where the current rector is constantly coming under fire for refusing to cater to minorities in his church.

There is undoubtedly both good and bad about staying a part of a declining denomination and holding the line. Maybe our old church was right to stay. I don't know. The congregation was skewed to a much older age group, and I suspect many of the congregants were so deeply invested in the church traditions of their youth that they didn't want to leave. Hopefully Pastor Hans is as committed to resisting the progressive nonsense as the rector of your parents' church.

Blogger Sam Lively May 03, 2017 2:18 PM  

@83

In my teens I was part of a half-successful/half-disastrous twist on the youth group concept.

At the time I went to a primarily homeschool oriented church with a pretty sizable contingent of teens. A few of the teens there were connected to a small pro-life club that held signs and passed out literature at local schools in the mornings. Just a handful of teenagers working with a bunch of old vet pro-life activists from the Operation Rescue glory days.

When the pro-life club started hosting weekly meetings to discuss pro-life dialectic and game plan for upcoming events, it quickly morphed into a hybrid youth group, absorbing the bored teens of the main church. We opened with some angsty acoustic guitar worship, per Millennial standards, and then instead of a sermon, we had some type of lesson on apologetics. Then broke into sub-groups to plan various events or did mock street debates to prep.

For awhile it worked well. We enjoyed massive numbers surges at our various pro-life events. Taught a lot of kids debate and leadership skills in high-intensity situations. But it soon became apparent that most of the kids were there just for the social scene, and once the more angsty teens of the bunch started sleeping together, drama ensued and the numbers started to nosedive.

15 years later, the group still exists in some form, with a small group of dedicated teens and the same old die-hards, but the hybrid youth group experiment is certainly over.

Blogger Quadko May 03, 2017 2:19 PM  

@110 Masonry is Wicca for Republicans.

Haha! Given the dates formation, maybe Wicca is Masonry for Democrats.

Blogger Silly but True May 03, 2017 2:20 PM  

OT: Cerno breaking that pro-antifa Mayor of Seattle is pedo.

Every. Single. Time.

Blogger tuberman May 03, 2017 2:21 PM  

There seems to e mild distinctions between somewhat converged, and totally converged churches in the passive vs fully feminized males (still not saying all these fem-males are gay ...Yet). The last two churches I visited, most males were somewhat fem, and beyond passive.

Even passive males fold against very aggressive tactics from the Left, as they just cannot spring back aggressively, at the appropriate time, from a defensive position. I've watch this effect many times, and even smart passive people do not respond right. Even the churches that do not quite feminize their males, make them passive.

Blogger SouthRon May 03, 2017 2:22 PM  

@Koanic That's the chickinah glory. Or chicano glory for the dieverse churches.

Anonymous Christically Bent May 03, 2017 2:25 PM  

@90

Read your Bible. I Timothy 5 gives a great list of things that women in the Church should be doing. Yes, it is given as a list of qualities for widows to be taken into the charity role of the Church, but surely that is a minimum level of expectation for behavior of women before they become widows.

"9 Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man, 10 well reported for good works: if she has brought up children, if she has lodged strangers, if she has washed the saints’ feet, if she has relieved the afflicted, if she has diligently followed every good work.

11 But refuse the younger widows; for when they have begun to grow wanton against Christ, they desire to marry, 12 having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith. 13 And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not. 14 Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully. 15 For some have already turned aside after Satan."

Marry, bear children, manage the house. Don't see one mention of making PowerPoints for the HR Dept. in there.

Anonymous J. J. May 03, 2017 2:26 PM  

Denominationalism is anathema to Christ's prayer for his followers in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Years ago I went to a non-denominational (sorry "inter-denominational") church where you had to listen to tapes about the "denomination abomination" before joining. A lot of good points were made, but I've come to believe that denominations in fact help maximize unity amongst believers. We'll never have perfect unity with other believers this side of the age to come. "Good fences make good neighbors" might be a good analogy. Here's an example... my small church used to occasionally (2-3 times per year) do special events or projects with a local PCA church (a very solid denomination, just not ours), and about a half dozen prayer meetings. Both were small, struggling churches and at one time the thought of combining the churches briefly came up. Think about what would happen the first time there was an infant baptism (which they practice and we don't)... half the congregation is going to be thinking "this is really dumb, we shouldn't be doing this". Whoever is right, whoever is wrong... no unity. That's a pretty serious issue to allow something like that in the worship service when half the people think it's silly or even wrong. Forget the specific issue, but you can come up with a lot of those types of things that would tear apart the unity within a local body, so in this sinful fallen world, it's just as well that we have denominations so that people within their own walls may (hopefully) be in unity... and, like that church and ours, be able to express unity throughout the year on the things we did agree with (of which there were many). It's kind of like how a multi-cultural society is a pipe dream... better that people of different nations have their own territory. THEN, they can figure out how to work together and act in unity. Slam them all together in the same place, though, and you have nothing but discord. So, with all due respect, because I think the existence of denominations does point out the sinfulness and falleness of humanity, they may be a way that helps maximize what Jesus was praying for when he prayed for unity.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 03, 2017 2:27 PM  

@114
But it soon became apparent that most of the kids were there just for the social scene, and once the more angsty teens of the bunch started sleeping together, drama ensued and the numbers started to nosedive.


One of the great new ideas of modern Youth Group is the "lock in". Put adolescent boys and girls together in the church building from 7 PM to 7 AM with at most two adults. What could possibly go wrong?

Blogger Cail Corishev May 03, 2017 2:29 PM  

@98 Stickwick, a great line I heard from a Catholic priest: If it's so important to keep up with the times, why is the modernists' music (and vestments, decorations, architecture...) still stuck in the 1970s? I could walk into any Catholic parish today and mumble along with the syrupy dirges from childhood memory. They're not so much trying to be modern as trying not to be traditional.

Blogger DeploraBard May 03, 2017 2:30 PM  

I attended a home fellowship for a few years. Mainly while my kids were young for fellowship. Some nice people, but far too interested in sheltering the families from the realities of the world. Then, instead of scripture, the women started doing 6 week studies such as finding God, or the lost spirit or some such nonsense. During a discussion, I was interrupted by the host's wife who objected to an example I used. I stood up, publicly called her on it, condemned her, kept my composure, and left. Never went back. Now, instead of 10 or so families, only two attend; one being the host family. Hard to find a group of masculine oriented people in close proximity offline. Believers should fellowship, so I am starting my own bible study with a group of retired army guys. Women have an important role: making the food.

Blogger Unknown May 03, 2017 2:31 PM  

The freemasons are secretive, which gives people license to project onto them.

Their specific beliefs are monotheism of a somewhat deism character, that you should strive to become a better person, that you should voluntarily spend a significant portion of your day on people other than yourself, and that you should offer charity towards and protect those least able to defend themselves.
Quite honestly, it's pretty thin gruel. There really isn't much there, and what there is, I usually both broad and subjective.

Nowadays it's mostly a chance to socialize away from wives.
But reading between the lines, the club did do a lot to hold communities together in Britain as the crown flipped from Protestant to Catholic and back again. AFAICT, it's this period when they were a neutral meeting ground that gave rise to the probation--for not choosing a side.

Blogger Beau May 03, 2017 2:32 PM  

Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee;
Let the water and the blood,
From Thy wounded side which flowed,
Be of sin the double cure;
Save from wrath and make me pure.

Not the labor of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law’s demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and Thou alone.

Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling;
Naked, come to Thee for dress;
Helpless look to Thee for grace;
Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me, Savior, or I die.

While I draw this fleeting breath,
When mine eyes shall close in death,
When I soar to worlds unknown,
See Thee on Thy judgment throne,
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee.

Blogger Servant May 03, 2017 2:33 PM  

@stickwick

Worship is supposed to be supplication and praise. There is a strict prohibition on empty meaningless repeated phrases, and I think Psalms is the perfect model for prayer and music both. I loathe "freshening" hymns written by our forebears. It strikes me as unnecessary and motives are suspect.

There are beautiful new songs in a variety of styles. The common theme amongst them is sacrifice and focus on God and truth. Also a complete lack of blah blah blah blah repeated over and over and over again.

My general feeling on the modern church is they aren't killing us we aren't doing it right.

Anonymous Ain May 03, 2017 2:34 PM  

"I have heard masonry is connected with the occult but am not familiar with their specific beliefs. Can you explain why they would be barred from church leadership? I am curious about the specifics."

This podcast with David Carrico is an excellent source for Christians. It's about 2 hours long, but worth being familiar with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2prdarXNXg

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 03, 2017 2:38 PM  

Stickwick, a great line I heard from a Catholic priest: If it's so important to keep up with the times, why is the modernists' music (and vestments, decorations, architecture...) still stuck in the 1970s?

Precisely. A pastor I know grew up in Dallas, there was a Protestant church near his house that was all "contemporary worship". He went there and every single song was from the 1970's. The leadership was a clump of aging Boomers, surprise, surprise. Like a fly preserved in amber, it just sits.

There's a more modern version of this. The Protestant church where every song is from the 90's, heavy rotation on the songs by Keith & Kristyn Getty. Well, that's only 15 to 25 years out of date, so "contemporary" and "keeping up with the times". Same stuff, different decade. Another fly in amber that's not hardened yet.

Blogger Servant May 03, 2017 2:41 PM  

@J.J.

Strangely enough I was PCA, and have come to regard infant baptism as Highly Suspect.

But where you are tripping up is Paul didn't instruct the churches to separate into Friday meat eaters and Friday meat abstainers. He said stay silent, and don't be your brother's stumbling block.

Denominations are wicked.

Blogger VFM #7634 May 03, 2017 2:42 PM  

OT, but should be an interesting and potentially very good situation in France coming up.

First, a bit of background:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-k4HH8esNk

Well...
http://www.france24.com/en/20170503-le-pen-macron-face-off-final-french-presidential-debate

PARIS (AFP) - French presidential candidates Emmanuel Macron and Marine Le Pen face off in a televised debate on Wednesday which is expected to be bitter, personal and potentially decisive ahead of voting this weekend.

The stakes are high ahead of the contest between the pro-European Macron, a 39-year-old former economy minister, and far-right leader Le Pen, the 48-year-old scion of the National Front party.

Their starkly different views of Europe, immigration, the economy and French identity will be explored for the first time face-to-face following a week marked by bruising clashes between them.

Polls show Macron holding a hefty but narrowing lead in the polls of 59 percent versus 41 percent, but previous debates during the rollercoaster French campaign have quickly shifted public opinion.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 03, 2017 2:42 PM  

@125 Beau
Amen.

If you have an update on that open air preaching of the Word please tell us.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener May 03, 2017 2:42 PM  

@124 Sounds about right. Tolstoy described the Masons very similarly in War and Peace.

Anonymous Christically Bent May 03, 2017 2:46 PM  

@98

Worship music always worships "I" and "me" a whole lot more than it ever worships "God" or "Jesus."

Hymns, both traditional and modern are very different.

I especially love the way that the verses of so many hymns seem to follow a progression toward a final stanza the ends in death and the afterlife. That is the actual focus of a real Christian perspective anyway. You NEVER see that topic mentioned in "worship music."

Examples of what I mean:
Amazing Grace - "When we've been there ten thousand years..."
Abide With Me - "Hold thou Cross before my closing eyes..."
There is a Fountain - "When this poor lisping, stammering tongue lies silent in the grave..."
A Mighty Fortress is Our God -
"Let goods and kindred go,
This mortal life also;
The body they may kill:
God’s truth abideth still,
His Kingdom is forever."

How many "worship songs" even mention death or heaven?

Blogger Nate May 03, 2017 2:48 PM  

Point of fact...

If all you perfect Christians would come back to the church you abandoned for being imperfect... it would be a lot easier for the rest of us to make the church less imperfect.

But rather than do that... you snipe from the sidelines.

#fakechristians

Blogger Nate May 03, 2017 2:50 PM  

There are over 40,000 Christian denominations. Are you people really such special snowflakes you can't find one out of 40,000 that meets your amazingly perfect requirements?

Blogger Koanic May 03, 2017 2:51 PM  

Christianity is illegal in the USSA.

Not much point in paying a tenth to the church when you're paying three times as much to the anti-church.

Blogger VFM #7634 May 03, 2017 2:53 PM  

@134 Nate

Yeah, I've never understood the mentality of people who abandon a religion because the religion's caretakers abandoned it in favor of what the world likes.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2017 2:59 PM  

"Fundamentally, they claimed the Hebrews, being the Hyksos, stole the secrets of escaping divine punishment from the true Old Egyptian religion, and that Hyram Abiff (who is linked linguistically with the King of Tyre in the OT), architect of the Temple of Solomon, was one of three people who knew the mysteries of the religion, and that he was killed because he wouldn't share the mysteries without being permitted by the other two"

oh that's a good one.

You know how 4-chan amuses itself by thinking up new and fun ways to see just how gullible people are?

They learned that from Masons.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2017 3:00 PM  

"Not much point in paying a tenth to the church when you're paying three times as much to the anti-church."

the Tithe is extortion.

Blogger ZhukovG May 03, 2017 3:06 PM  

As long as we are comparing favorite hymns:

When I Survey the Wondrous Cross - Isaac Watts

When I survey the wondrous cross
On which the Prince of glory died,
My richest gain I count but loss,
And pour contempt on all my pride.

Forbid it, Lord, that I should boast,
Save in the death of Christ my God!
All the vain things that charm me most,
I sacrifice them to His blood.

See from His head, His hands, His feet,
Sorrow and love flow mingled down!
Did e’er such love and sorrow meet,
Or thorns compose so rich a crown?

Were the whole realm of nature mine,
That were a present far too small;
Love so amazing, so divine,
Demands my soul, my life, my all.

Blogger Servant May 03, 2017 3:06 PM  

@Nate

The people mired in the church are always quick to think I find fault with the people.

Went to Easter Sunday with Parents. The cross was shrouded and the Pastor went soft on six day creation. I pointed out problems with this and was told shut up.

Bye Felicia.

Blogger Koanic May 03, 2017 3:11 PM  

"the Tithe is extortion."

You are just trying to erase what little Christian heritage America has left. That and Egyptian debt slavery are the only surviving parts of the Old Testament!

Blogger Nate May 03, 2017 3:13 PM  

"Went to Easter Sunday with Parents. The cross was shrouded and the Pastor went soft on six day creation. I pointed out problems with this and was told shut up."

Why my dear precious snowflake... I am certain you can find one of the 40,000 denominations that is fine with you defining a day as 24 hours even before the sun existed.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2017 3:14 PM  

"You are just trying to erase what little Christian heritage America has left. That and Egyptian debt slavery are the only surviving parts of the Old Testament!"

no. Not at all. In fact the Tithe is not in the Old Testament. If you'd read what the Tithe is in the OT you'd see it a very specific form of giving for a very specific purpose.

It has nothing to do with money.

Jesus didn't' tithe. Neither did Paul or Peter. the Tithe did not apply to them. They gave. But they did not Tithe.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2017 3:15 PM  

The concept of the Tithe as 10 percent of your income was invented by the catholic church to fund its permanent full time preisthood. It was, and is, an unbiblical scam.

Anonymous TheCatholicShoemaker May 03, 2017 3:17 PM  

Have you ever read Pope Pius X's "Against the Modernists" (1907)? Essentially it's the Catholic version of SJW's Always Lie. Amazing how he saw all this coming, and his attack plan was similar to Vox's, so too his analysis of the (later to be known as) SJW mindset. Highly recommend it.

To say the Catholic Church has been converged is mostly true in practice. But I'm banking on taking back the Church. Although I know it's said you can't take back converged institutions, but I have faith in this cause. There a good video series "Among the Ruins of Christendom" which sometimes touches on these issues: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKFXnoIjhTA

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 03, 2017 3:24 PM  

The problem with Masonry is 3-fold

Masonry preaches a god, and that god is not God.

Masonry teaches a false account of biblical history, perverting the Word of God.

Masonry requires oaths that are on their face inimical to Christianity, and that purport to supersede your obligations to God, to family and to nation.

Masonry is a false religion, founded on lies. It's no wonder at all that they try to keep their doctrine secret.

That it claims to be compatible with Christianity is a nullity. Baha'i, Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam all make the same claim.

There are plenty of other fraternal organizations that don't require you to swear allegiance to a false god; Elk, Foresters, Odd Fellows, Grange.
Don't be taken in by Masonry's lies.

Blogger Iron Spartan May 03, 2017 3:24 PM  

Reading this makes me feel violent for reasons that i just cannot put into words.

Disgust and contempt are too weak of words.

Anonymous AT May 03, 2017 3:28 PM  

Find a primitive baptist church if you can. They are small and they have structural anti-convergent defenses.

Anonymous Pax_Romana May 03, 2017 3:28 PM  

I had been going to a non-denom for about...7 years. It was pretty grounded in exegetical Bible study, and was unapologetic about its stance on abortion, homosexuality, women in ministry, etc - and this is a church in the heart of Hollywood!

A year ago, our main pastor left to start a church in London, and the new guy took over. Slowly I began to watch the church converge, first with the sermons that glorify women and crucify men, then with subtle verses taken out of context, and finally - the last straw - in teaching through Nehemiah, the pastor said that the church needed to repent for "Slavery, how it has treated the LGBT community, and the wars it has started...and be proud of the good things it has done [like] advocate for women's rights."

Honestly, I'm at a loss. I am the leader of a small group at this church, but I obviously don't want to go back to waste my time hearing "worship" "songs," (which are getting increasingly more disturbing in the tone towards "physical" intimacy with God) or sermons that are liable to raise my blood pressure.

Any advice? Perhaps warn the elders of the poison coming from the pulpit and then stay until they tell me to leave?

Blogger CM May 03, 2017 3:33 PM  

TheCatholicShoemaker wrote:Have you ever read Pope Pius X's "Against the Modernists" (1907)? Essentially it's the Catholic version of SJW's Always Lie. Amazing how he saw all this coming, and his attack plan was similar to Vox's, so too his analysis of the (later to be known as) SJW mindset. Highly recommend it.

To say the Catholic Church has been converged is mostly true in practice. But I'm banking on taking back the Church. Although I know it's said you can't take back converged institutions, but I have faith in this cause. There a good video series "Among the Ruins of Christendom" which sometimes touches on these issues: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKFXnoIjhTA


I think I want to read that. Thanks. Might pass it along, too.

Christically Bent wrote:@90

Read your Bible. I Timothy 5 gives a great list of things that women in the Church should be doing. Yes, it is given as a list of qualities for widows to be taken into the charity role of the Church, but surely that is a minimum level of expectation for behavior of women before they become widows.

"9 Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man, 10 well reported for good works: if she has brought up children, if she has lodged strangers, if she has washed the saints’ feet, if she has relieved the afflicted, if she has diligently followed every good work.

11 But refuse the younger widows; for when they have begun to grow wanton against Christ, they desire to marry, 12 having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith. 13 And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not. 14 Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully. 15 For some have already turned aside after Satan."

Marry, bear children, manage the house. Don't see one mention of making PowerPoints for the HR Dept. in there.


Always a good reminder. Thank you. I struggle with staying the course and frequently find myself questioning if I'm doing enough or the right the thing. I need to be reminded that this (husband, kids, home) is the right place for me at this time. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak...

Blogger Koanic May 03, 2017 3:34 PM  

Well, since food has been translated to money by Progress, much like Jesus transmuted water into wine by the Holy Spirit, then clearly FDR enslaved America by saving her from bankruptcy with the New Deal, as Joseph saved the Egyptians from starvation by divine warning.

Wherefore, WWII must have been our punishment for the Social Security number, as it was with David's census!

For Christians are Abraham's seed, and not to be numbered.

Blogger Lovekraft May 03, 2017 3:37 PM  

Posting this on reddit r/politics with the heading 'More Sanders Corruptioin apparently' got me banned:

https://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/feds-in-florida-burlington-college-probe-goes-the-distance/Content?oid=5480049

Anonymous Deplorable me May 03, 2017 3:40 PM  

Also church shopping due to a recent move. Greek Orthodox and Anglo Catholic are on my short list. Tried two of the three RCC churches, and nope -- they don't even pass the starting line.

The Anglo Catholic uses the 1928 Book of Common prayer & 1945 hymnal, so I'm hopeful.

Women in leadership: nope. This woman wants a man in the pulpit. I don't have any problems with female lectors or Eucharistic ministers, but won't miss them either. If the women are focusing on hospitality ministry that's fine.

Anonymous Stryker4570 May 03, 2017 3:42 PM  

Genesis 3:16 To the woman He said,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain [a]in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.”

Have been told that the Hebrew reads "Your desire shall be for your husband's position."

Paul is in line with this when he connects the Creation and the Fall with his prohibition of women Pastors in I Timothy. We can see this play out in every sphere of our society. That's why the Scriptures forbid women Pastors

Anonymous Looking Glass May 03, 2017 3:44 PM  

@148 Iron Spartan

Every faithful Christian should have the Hezekiah Instinct.

Blogger RC May 03, 2017 3:46 PM  

"There are over 40,000 Christian denominations. Are you people really such special snowflakes you can't find one out of 40,000 that meets your amazingly perfect requirements?"

Amen. Join up and fight. People are uncucked one at a time and many of them just need someone with a backbone to lead the way, to go back to scripture and ask the hard questions, to contrast orthodoxy with modernity. It took me five years to get on the church board and I've been there twenty years, putting stop to nonsensical ideas any number of times. I lead a small group of eighteen, keeping a good strong core with clear eyes and good ears. I serve on the board of trustees for a Christian university and am starting the long, slow process of speaking truth to lies. It is possible to make a difference.

Blogger Lovekraft May 03, 2017 3:49 PM  

Dalrock's been exposing churchianity for a long time:

https://dalrock.wordpress.com/

Anonymous BBGKB May 03, 2017 3:54 PM  

One of the goals of gay marriage was to force cathedrals to marry gays.

Step by step, the world reels in one congregation after another, simply because the members would not abide by the Scripture

Where are these churches adhering to the scripture? Last time I visited the Lutheran church I grew up in at a Christmas service I though Martin Luther would have nailed the current pastor's mouth shut.

If SJW's are like an infestation of rodents, Masons are like wolves hunting in a pack looking for a kill

What exactly is the deal with the masons? I know a jewish lesbian told me that if you join they wont prosecute fellow members who have sex with their kids. That might be the only honest thing I have ever heard about them.

A few of the teens there were connected to a small pro-life club that held signs and passed out literature at local schools in the mornings

Meet the reason gays got thrown in ovens also
http://www.philly.com/philly/education/Downingtown-STEM-administrator.html

Vice Principle...video-recorded cursing at two teenage anti-abortion protesters on school property, telling them that aborted fetuses were “cells,” that he was gay and didn’t “give a [expletive] about Jesus," and then loudly singing "I Love a Parade," apparently to drown out the pair...Ruff barked, “They’re cells. ... You’re at a science-based school.” At one point he said, “You can go to hell, where they are, too,’” motioning toward the sign.

During the confrontation, he also snapped, "You and Trump can go to hell."

Later, Connor Haines said, “Sir, you need to turn to Jesus Christ.”

“I'm as gay as the day is long, and twice as sunny," Ruff declared. "I don't give a [expletive] what Jesus tells me and what I should and should not be doing."

OT: Cerno breaking that pro-antifa Mayor of Seattle is pedo.

Breaking, I am pretty sure I posted links to claims of him seducing boys with drugs.

Anonymous Christically Bent May 03, 2017 3:55 PM  

@150

Absolutely speak up. Do not be silent. It is your responsibility as a Christian to try to help your fellow Christians in the face of sin until they force you to break fellowship.

This is Matthew and church discipline again, accept it is in reverse. If you can find any other church members who can back you up in your observations, that should be the second stage of your confronting the elders. Third stage is to get as many people together as you can to have that discussion with the elders. Fourth stage is to break fellowship and treat them as unbelievers.

You don't have to wait for them to kick you out if you follow those steps and don't see any repentance.

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable May 03, 2017 3:56 PM  

Any advice? Perhaps warn the elders of the poison coming from the pulpit and then stay until they tell me to leave?

I always feel sad reading comments like this. It's always worth saying your piece in defense of the truth, absolutely. I've just never seen it accomplish much. But better to have said it than to have stayed silent, for sure.

I think of the Lord saying, "If any man hear my voice and open the door ..." in Revelation. Sometimes these days our communion with him is only one-on-one rather than within his Body, as it should be.

God bless.

Anonymous Broken Arrow May 03, 2017 3:59 PM  

Nate wrote:There are over 40,000 Christian denominations. Are you people really such special snowflakes you can't find one out of 40,000 that meets your amazingly perfect requirements?



This is an argumentative number, but YES. If you are within an hour of any population center in the USA you have no excuse for not being able to find a church. Guess what? You don't have to agree with everything and it doesn't have to be perfect all of the time. The first churches were a mess of saints/sinners and had all sorts of problems, but Paul didn't write the members letters telling them to leave and complain to everyone that there weren't any good churches around.

Blogger Koanic May 03, 2017 3:59 PM  

Christians have forgotten to treat unbelievers like the dirt they are.

Dirt has mineable ore. But it's still dirt.

Excommunication just means you're a prodigal son whose father should visit him in the city and woo him with long understanding speeches.

Blogger Cail Corishev May 03, 2017 4:01 PM  

Have you ever read Pope Pius X's "Against the Modernists" (1907)? [...] Highly recommend it.

Seconded. One great thing about traditional encyclicals is that they're shorter and easier to understand than you'd expect. The language can be somewhat stilted and precise, but that's because they were trying to say exactly what they meant, which is refreshing. Pascendi (the Latin title of this one) is a major encyclical, and it's only 36 pages.

Blogger Unknown May 03, 2017 4:05 PM  

Some words of wisdom from Pope Pius X (mentioned in a previous post):

"Let priests be on their guard against accepting any doctrines of the Liberalism which under the pretext of good, aims at effecting a reconciliation between right and wrong… Liberal Catholics are wolves in sheep’s clothing. You will be called intolerant, but pay no heed to the derision and mockery of the wicked. Have courage. You must go in to the attack whole-heartedly, not in secret, but in public... in the public, in the view of all."

Blogger Silly but True May 03, 2017 4:10 PM  

@BBGKB,
You are correct; that's what I get for reading too fast. The breaking news was that a fourth or fourteenth or fortieth victim had accused the mayor.

Apparently everyone in Seattle knew.

Anonymous Azimus May 03, 2017 4:15 PM  

139.Nate May 03, 2017 3:00 PM

the Tithe is extortion.


Don't disagree, but is a reasonable biblical precedent to follow in free-will giving - to churches, charities, missionaries, etc.

I don't want to argue the tithe historically or how it's misapplied/abused/invalid, but there are verses that encourage Believers to provide assistance to the less fortunate - I believe that was the original purpose of the deacons - and short of following the Zacchaeus or Rich Young Ruler model for fulfilling these offices, it is a reasonable backstop for those being guilted and virtue-shamed into giving away all their resources out of proportion to their means.

Blogger James Dixon May 03, 2017 4:23 PM  

> As long as we are comparing favorite hymns:

Jesus calls us: o'er the tumult
of our life's wild, restless sea;
day by day his sweet voice soundeth
saying, "Christian, follow me."

Jesus calls us from the worship
of the vain world's golden store,
from each idol that would keep us,
saying, "Christian, love me more."

In our joys and in our sorrows,
days of toil and hours of ease,
still he calls, in cares and pleasures,
"Christian, love me more than these."

Jesus calls us: by thy mercies,
Savior, may we hear thy call,
give our hearts to thy obedience,
serve and love thee best of all.

> To say the Catholic Church has been converged is mostly true in practice. But I'm banking on taking back the Church.

None of use can take back the Church. But then it's not our Church, and the true owner is more than capable of doing so. All we have to do is be his willing tools.

> The Anglo Catholic uses the 1928 Book of Common prayer & 1945 hymnal, so I'm hopeful.

The Anglo Catholic churches we've been to (two I believe) have been excellent. Their only drawback for us is that they can use incense, which my wife's lungs won't take.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2017 4:49 PM  

"I don't want to argue the tithe historically or how it's misapplied/abused/invalid, but there are verses that encourage Believers to provide assistance to the less fortunate "

no one is saying you shouldn't give. You should give. You are specifically commanded to give.

You are not however commanded to give 10%.

You are not stealing from God if you give 9%.

This concept is straight up extortion.

Blogger Beau May 03, 2017 5:01 PM  

If you have an update on that open air preaching of the Word please tell us.

We opened this past Friday. At 7pm it was 70 degress and 72 people assembled. At 9pm it was 56 degrees, a 20 mph wind, and 35 people wrapped in blankets listening to the word and waiting on God. My wife was diagnosed last week with a calcified rotator cuff. At the meeting she was prayed over and healed immediately.

We did two more nights of healing services at a little church called Blood Bought Ministries. Then we joined in the spiritual awakening conference at the Nazarene church. Two nights ago God was ministering to pastors. Last night 100% of the people in attendance went forward at an altar call for "a new baptism in the Holy Spirit."

Today at lunch Jim & I prayed telling God we would go anywhere, anytime to preach the gospel. Our stuff is loaded up in a trailer. We are both used to roughing it. We aren't going to charge anyone to come preach. I'm listening to God to say where and when.

The 72 year old healing evangelist excitedly told Jim he's ready to return to Roswell next Friday and the Friday after that too.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2017 5:02 PM  

" It took me five years to get on the church board and I've been there twenty years, putting stop to nonsensical ideas any number of times. I lead a small group of eighteen, keeping a good strong core with clear eyes and good ears. I serve on the board of trustees for a Christian university and am starting the long, slow process of speaking truth to lies. It is possible to make a difference."

Amen brother.

There is a massive leadership vacuum in the church especially when it comes to younger men... Gen X men have a huge opportunity to step in... step up... and take back some ground.

Its time to get off your asses and get back in the fight.

Blogger Beau May 03, 2017 5:15 PM  

I jokingly told Jim ours will be the We.Don't.Care. gospel tour because we don't care if we offend you. You didn't pay us. We aren't in your building; we owe our allegiance to Jesus.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY May 03, 2017 5:34 PM  

149. AT
As a Primitive Baptist, I can vouch for this. No Masons, either.

Blogger Nate May 03, 2017 5:57 PM  

"As a Primitive Baptist, I can vouch for this. No Masons, either."

You're just bitter because the Masons don't accept illiterates.

Blogger JCclimber May 03, 2017 6:10 PM  

I wonder at the extreme passivity on display from some men. Are you serious about worshiping Christ? Did you truly die to self, daily? What is stopping you from leading out in a ministry? Do you need to be gently asked by the church board first before you will consider if it is worth giving up a little Television viewing time to serve the Lord?

You should be either leading or helping a leader who is on fire. The church board should be begging you to join the board.

Each of you should be mixing dialectic with rhetoric to foster Godliness among the members. You should be praying without ceasing for the Spirit to move hearts and minds back to Jesus.

It is YOUR job as a priest (every man is a priest per the New Testament) to guide the church. This is not something to abdicate to others. Be a MAN! Stand up for the gospel and truth and take your lumps when others ridicule you for being old fashioned.

You should be the one helping to purge the church, rather than shaking your head and walking out. Unless the church itself has its theology all wrong, then you should be seeking Bible based church. You need to fight, fight, fight. Quit surrendering ground to Satan and his troops.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY May 03, 2017 6:19 PM  

174. Nate
No, we let you arminians have the dregs.
quit bawlin', And fix that mess of a church you belong to.
Bootin' Freemasons out would be a damn good start.

Blogger Beau May 03, 2017 6:32 PM  

You should be praying without ceasing for the Spirit to move hearts and minds back to Jesus.

My vote for the thread win. Although I'd give the exchange between Nate and jOHN MOSBY an honorable mention.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY May 03, 2017 6:46 PM  

U.M.C.
" Open hearts, Open doors, Open Minds "
translation :
" Loves us some homo. Wimmen Homo preachers a plus, because open hearts."
"Let them Masons run this church, and we'll bring in as many muzzie refugees as we can, because open doors. "
"We are empty headed, because open minds. "
John and Charles Wesley are spinning in their graves.

Blogger Beau May 03, 2017 6:51 PM  

Heavenly Father,

I ask you shut up fire in our bones. Let the least man among us be as bold as David, the most as fierce as the angels of God. Stir up our hearts to discharge our duties as men, your sons. Let each of us in our place be salt and light.

Brothers, in Jesus' name, I'm looking for an Amen.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY May 03, 2017 6:55 PM  

177. Beau
God richly bless you, good sir.
I'm done with Nate on this, because I find it counterproductive, and this place has a way of gettin' me drug into arguments with people on this stuff.
I wish Nate nothing but success turning his Church around.
And I pray for you and yours in the good work you do out there in the trenches, Brother.

Blogger M. Bibliophile May 03, 2017 7:42 PM  

@179 Amen, brother.

As to the rest, I've watched it happen time and again to just about every church I've belonged to. Of all of them, the strongest fighters against the World were invariably small denomination rebels or old line Catholics. Men like Nate, I'm sorry to say, have been the exception, though that may be more symptomatic of where I live than anything else. In any event, I echo his recommendation: pick a denomination and fight like a saint to defend it! This means accepting leadership, if so called, and supporting those who would stand for Christ and against the World. The days of sitting idly by in the pews, if they ever truly came, have passed.

Anonymous Ages May 03, 2017 7:48 PM  

>attending a church that leaves everything up to a vote

One Holy Catholic Apostolic Eastern Church is the only way.

Anonymous Pax_Romana May 03, 2017 7:52 PM  

Thank you, gentlemen. It's going to be...interesting. I'll post up how the whole affair resolves (if I'm excommunicated, or my concerns addressed).

Blogger Mountain Man May 03, 2017 7:54 PM  

This article really hits home. We recently lost our pastor to an untimely death. He was a man of deep faith, wise to the wiles of Satan and with a deep understanding of Gods grace.
Since his death some within the church have slowly been bringing elements of the world into the church. A church Facebook page being one example. The justification : “ we need to reach the lost where they are at” . There is one gamma male member in particular who has been pushing the social media thing. Hes a pushy little bugger and quite the smug guy. I have had a visceral dislike for him for quite some time. Its tough to deal with a guy like this because when you stand up to him , on issues where he is out of line, you come across as the a-hole to the rest of the group of men within the church. All of them are really awesome guys but very beta and non-cnonfrontinational.

Blogger Mountain Man May 03, 2017 7:57 PM  

"There is a massive leadership vacuum in the church especially when it comes to younger men... Gen X men have a huge opportunity to step in... step up... and take back some ground.”


Where is the best place to start. ?
Any recommendations would be appreciated.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY May 03, 2017 8:20 PM  

Get in on the board of deacons.
Teach Sunday school.
Lead Bible study.
Belong to and be active in anything your church might be involved in ( outreach groups , missionary unions,etc. )
Just my two mites worth.

Blogger M. Bibliophile May 03, 2017 8:22 PM  

@185

I was going to put in my 2 cents, but I think jOHN MOSBY pretty much hit all the wickets.

Anonymous Field Marshal Mathers May 03, 2017 8:22 PM  

It's quite depressing the Church is regressing. Though I don't expect to see America wrecked in a spiritual waste of pagan bad taste, it is a concern; we may all just burn.

The progressives managed to annoy us enough to destroy all our stuff, our history and institutions by convincing us rinsing off "organization," "tradition," and "ritual" was not just feasible, not evil, but risibly, "necessary."

Blogger Beau May 03, 2017 8:23 PM  

Where is the best place to start. ?

On your knees. Open your Bible, study 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus. Ask God for an honest evaluation of yourself and your church. Listen to what the voice of the Holy Spirit tells you to do - it will conform to the written word. Ask for courage and boldness if necessary. Go do it. Expect backlash; rejoice when it comes. Keep going. Find likeminded men. Keep going. Walk in victory.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) May 03, 2017 8:30 PM  

Where is the best place to start. ?
Any recommendations would be appreciated.


Step one: go to church
Step two: find something that needs doing and do it

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY May 03, 2017 8:39 PM  

189. Beau
Amen, brother. The best advice by far.
This blog is truly blessed having the best Chaplain there is.
Once again, God richly bless you and yours, sir.

Blogger maniacprovost May 03, 2017 8:41 PM  

OT: Cerno breaking that pro-antifa Mayor of Seattle is pedo.

Every. Single. Time.


I have developed a theory I call Pedophile Convergence. Simply put, abusing children is one of if not the most evil/satanic acts there is. Therefore, any satanic group, no matter how different they may be- corrupt politicians, race hustlers, communists, post modernist sci fi hippies- they will eventually commit more and more explicitly evil acts until they converge at the center, on destroying the souls of the next generation.

Blogger Mountain Man May 03, 2017 8:54 PM  

Thanks to all for the suggestions.
Prayer followed by action seems to a good game plan.

Anonymous Alice De Goon May 03, 2017 9:24 PM  

The problem with today's churches can be boiled down to one word: Prosperity.

Hardwired instincts that would have helped a primitive people take advantage of a (temporary) resource glut, now push people towards degeneracy and low parental involvement (single motherhood.) Technological advancements keep the birth rate under control and cure once-fatal STDs. Thus, the only reason most Churchians have for not having pre-marital sex is "because God doesn't want you to."

Other arguments that MIGHT have weight against pre-marital sex are those that go against the prevailing Equalist Orthodoxy of the times ("women who have a large number of partners before marriage have a higher chance of divorce,") and have effects that aren't immediately apparent (unless you work at a high-security prison and notice that 80 percent of the men there have no Dad.) Thus, modern people are more likely to reject them.

In short: Traditional Chritianity and its buzzkill God stand opposed to the resource-driven, r-selected psychology that currently moves most of the movers and shakers of our society (urban and suburban people.) More traditionalist, rural-people are likely to "go with the flow" and accept convergence because they have no idea what the stakes are, and don't want the stigma that goes with not being totally nice and accepting of everyone.

Prosperous Times never last, though. Weak, degenerate men and women eventually sow the seeds of their own destruction, if only via the plunging birth rates their own hedonism produces. If you're in a church that wants to become a cult branch of Niceness, Inc., you'd do well to remind your fellow parishoners of this...

You would also do well to remind your Churchian members what God did to the Israelites whenever they grew prosperous, rejected him, and started hoisting Asherah poles on every hill...

May 03, 2017 9:15 PM

Anonymous Alice De Goon May 03, 2017 9:27 PM  

Also: Something weird is going on when I try to post a comment in IE: - the "verify" button isn't showing up in the CAPTCHA window. Had to install Opera in order to post (Has anyone figured out a way we can post in Pale Moon, or is that a lost cause?)

Blogger Desiderius May 03, 2017 9:29 PM  

Beau,

"Keep going. Walk in victory."


In Christ all things are possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X92JjsArJCE

https://www.amazon.com/Christus-Victor-Historical-Study-Atonement/dp/1592443303

Blogger Desiderius May 03, 2017 9:33 PM  

"The problem with today's churches can be boiled down to one word: Prosperity."

"Prosperity is the blessing of the Old Testament; adversity is the blessing of the New; which carrieth the greater benediction, and the clearer revelation of God’s favor. Yet even in the Old Testament, if you listen to David’s harp, you shall hear as many hearse-like airs as carols; and the pencil of the Holy Ghost hath labored more in describing the afflictions of Job, than the felicities of Solomon. Prosperity is not without many fears and distastes; and adversity is not without comforts and hopes. We see in needle-works and embroideries, it is more pleasing to have a lively work, upon a sad and solemn ground, than to have a dark and melancholy work, upon a lightsome ground: judge therefore of the pleasure of the heart, by the pleasure of the eye. Certainly virtue is like precious odors, most fragrant when they are incensed, or crushed: for prosperity doth best discover vice, but adversity doth best discover virtue."

- Bacon, Of Adversity

That said, I'd say the present problem can be summed up as vanity.

Blogger 1337kestrel May 03, 2017 9:40 PM  

Has anyone figured out a way we can post in Pale Moon

I'm posting in Pale Moon right now.

Blogger Desiderius May 03, 2017 9:43 PM  

ZhukovG wrote:As long as we are comparing favorite hymns:

When I Survey the Wondrous Cross - Isaac Watts



Second that one.

Anonymous jOHN MOSBY May 03, 2017 9:53 PM  

147. Snidely Whiplash
You hit the nail on the head, good sir. Great poast.
I would add the Moose lodge and The Woodmen of the World to those frat orgs.
And don't fergit Fred and Barney's group , The Loyal Order of The Water Buffalo.

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