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Wednesday, May 24, 2017

Self-determination in Spain

Catalonia threatens instant secession if Spain prevents an independence vote:
Spain’s Attorney General José Manuel Maza is set to examine the legality of a plan outlined by the regional government of Catalonia to activate immediate secession from Spain if the central government in Madrid stops it from holding a vote on independence – something it is planning on doing in September or October of this year.

The independence mechanism is detailed in a secret draft version of legislation being prepared by the Generalitat, the Catalan regional government, and to which EL PAÍS has had access.

The text ignore issues of enormous importance including if Catalonia would be an EU member

Speaking about the document on Spanish national broadcaster TVE, Maza described the text as “surprising” and “strange” in a country governed by “the rule of law,” but refused be drawn on legal issues related to the document, saying he had not yet had time to study the draft. He said however, that he would meet with fellow prosecutors on Monday to examine its legal status.

The document aims to work as a provisional Catalan Constitution that, according to the text, would be in place during the two-month period that the parliament would have to begin a process that would culminate in the “parliamentary republic” of Catalonia.

“If the Spanish state effectively impedes the holding of a referendum, this law will enter into effect in a complete and immediate manner when the [regional] parliament has verified such an impediment,” the draft legislation reads.

Catalonia has been on a collision course with the Popular Party (PP) government in Madrid for months now, due to its insistence on holding an official vote on its future. The central government is fiercely opposed to any such referendum, or indeed independence for the northeastern region, and already maneuvered to prevent such a plebiscite from taking place in November 2014. However, officials in the regional government still organized a vote – albeit an unofficial one the result of which was not recognized by international observers – which saw citizens vote in favor of a breakaway from the rest of Spain.
I think the huge list of secessionist movements across Europe has to do with two things. First, the EU. Since the EU is now the true governing power, the regional governments see no reason to tolerate the national governments divvying out the goodies. Catalunyans see no reason to let Madrid have the first crack at everything.

Second, NATO. Because the national governments have farmed out their militaries to the USA, they have considerably less power over the regional governments than they did prior to WWII. Put those two things together, and it means both the carrot and the stick have been removed as incentives for inter-regional unity.

Neither of these two reasons apply to the USA, but even so, if the much older unions of Great Britain and Spain are being shattered, what are the chances that the imperial US union, which was imposed by force 150 years ago, is going to survive for much longer, especially now that 80 million foreigners are culturally enriching it?

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82 Comments:

Blogger Al From Bay Shore May 24, 2017 5:45 AM  

A slightly related question: What do you think of the "Convention of States" movement?

Blogger Subversive Saint May 24, 2017 5:48 AM  

The South will rise again.

Don't ask what will happen after that but I'm betting the War Eagle faction and Roll Tide faction will start their own civil war shortly after.

Blogger Sillon Bono May 24, 2017 6:04 AM  

If Catalonia wanted just secession it wont be a problem, the rest of Spain is sick of their whining, the problem is that they want the rest of Spain to finance their adventures.

Look VD, the Catalonian issue is not what it looks like from the outside, Catalonia is nothing but Barcelona and its surroundings, the Catalonians (once the brightest and best of the country) are a now joke of their former selves.

I know plenty of people there who go along with the separatism because their livelihood depend on it, literally.

Politically they're extreme left, idiot progressives (this can be seen by how enriched they are, way more than the rest of Spain)

Here you can have a picture of these 100% Catalonians:

http://www.alertadigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/moras-sparatas.jpg

Anonymous burgmeister May 24, 2017 6:12 AM  

#3 so why then does the central government oppose a referendum?

Blogger great_o'rety May 24, 2017 6:23 AM  

Who's next? Italy? Germany? I'd personally have nothing against the latter. The Polish-German border had been the most peaceful one in all Europe as long as Germany consisted of myriad of petty dukedoms, countships, bishoprics and free imperial cities. Then, of course, the British interfered breeding Prussia to become a monster that not only devoured PLC (their original plan) but also all those petty German states (sans Austria) they'd rather see multiplying. Hence WW1 and WW2. Man proposes God disposes.

Anonymous Donald Trump May 24, 2017 6:28 AM  

The Holocaust memorial I went to, you should have been there!

If Israel gets a wall for self-determination, why don't we? They don't wail about it.

Jews! So amazing!

Blogger weka May 24, 2017 6:57 AM  

@3. The Scotish Nationalists are about as converged. The question in Europe is not what happens under the EU and NATO. It is what will happen when they fail.

Which will happen in the next election cycle.

Anonymous Opus May 24, 2017 7:03 AM  

My Girlfriend is Spanish and so I asked her. Will Catalunia secede? Her answer and without hesitation was, No. We will see.

Anonymous Donald Trump May 24, 2017 7:03 AM  

We've updated the menu with paella and gazpacho.

The best tapas are made in Trump Tower Grill.

I love Spaniards!

Blogger Sam Spade May 24, 2017 7:06 AM  

I'm spanish. And I can tell you the funny thing about secesionist parties from Catalonia and Vasque is that they are pro muslim inmigration, and they are filling their region with them, giving wellfare payments.

They don't love Catalonian culture, they hate spanish one. You don't welcome muslim andSouth amrerican invaders if you are loyal to your nation.

Also most of them are pro European Union. They are mostly SJWs that hate their culture and only want independence to gain power in their region, or to have a reason to complain and play the victim.

PD: This is mostly recent. 20 years ago, they didn't like EU and were more Chauvinist against foreigners.

An anecdote from : a demosntration from a Soros anti racism ONG in Catalonia had the following slogan: Welcome Refugees, get out Spanish!

Blogger VD May 24, 2017 7:06 AM  

What do you think of the "Convention of States" movement?

Literally nothing at all.

Look VD, the Catalonian issue is not what it looks like from the outside, Catalonia is nothing but Barcelona and its surroundings, the Catalonians (once the brightest and best of the country) are a now joke of their former selves.

I am very familiar with Barcelona. You don't seem to grasp that they are economically better able to survive on their own without the rest of Spain. The EU makes that a much more feasible possibility now, for the reasons mentioned.

Spain contributes EUR 9.9 billion to the EU, and receives 13.6 billion. Catalonia (or as you say, Barcelona) net-contributes between EUR 11 and 15 billion to the rest of Spain every year. So, it's easy to see that the Catalonians have done the math and understand that they can afford to go it alone.

Blogger Sam Spade May 24, 2017 7:07 AM  

Guys, pro independence Catalonian and vasque parties are SJW converged. Just investigate.

When I finish work if you want I translate you some references.

Blogger VD May 24, 2017 7:10 AM  

I can tell you the funny thing about secesionist parties from Catalonia and Vasque is that they are pro muslim inmigration, and they are filling their region with them, giving wellfare payments.

Yes, these are left-secessionist movements, and like the Scottish Nationalist Party, they are very pro-EU. That's the point. They want to play directly in the EU, they don't want an intermediary. That was inevitable once the sovereign states became member-states; they no longer matter to the regions that have their own identities.

This is what identity politics look like on a continental level. Now imagine what it would be like under a global government.

Blogger VD May 24, 2017 7:12 AM  

Guys, pro independence Catalonian and vasque parties are SJW converged.

That's true. So what? Decentralization is always advantageous in the long run. Moreover, they are dependent upon the EU, and the EU is going to fail.

Blogger Midnight Avenue J May 24, 2017 7:14 AM  

Converged or not, independence movements show people want self determination. For their benefit or to their detriment, if they want independence they should get it. It's a gamble but at least they are doing the wagering and not letting others determine their course.

Anonymous Pug May 24, 2017 7:17 AM  

@3 it looks like Catalonia should be reconquistated again.

Blogger Sam Spade May 24, 2017 7:18 AM  

"That's true. So what? Decentralization is always advantageous in the long run. Moreover, they are dependent upon the EU, and the EU is going to fail."

Yeah. I was only pointing out that the parties are no pure nationalists or loyal to their people, for the readers don't know spanish politics.

Anonymous Rocklea May 24, 2017 7:19 AM  

"This is what identity politics look like on a continental level. Now imagine what it would be like under a global government."

Babylon falls?

Anonymous Bobby Farr May 24, 2017 7:23 AM  

It would seem the cultural enrichment makes regional secession less likely in the US. Not much reason if the country is a uniform third world bazaar. Even places like Nashville and Omaha have largely seen the natives displaced among the youngest demographic.

Blogger ZhukovG May 24, 2017 7:27 AM  

Simply observing that a Nationalist party is Leftist or SJW converged does not invalidate the Nationalist impulse.

A multi-national union can only be maintained while the nationalist impulse is weaker than the perceived benefits derived from union.

As an example; the Tatars in the Russian Federation. They enjoy a decent standard of living and have a weak national impulse that is satisfied by being granted an autonomous republic under Moscow.

Blogger Sam Spade May 24, 2017 7:29 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Sam Spade May 24, 2017 7:30 AM  

Personally, I would like them to make a binding self determination Referendum so the issue is settled for good.

It's estimated than the population is very divided between pro and anti independence. Like Half- Half

Some years ago they did a non binding consult, and the YES to independence won by a bit. But not many people voted, 40-50% if I remember correctly.

Anonymous Renegade Third Worlder May 24, 2017 7:31 AM  

"Since the EU is now the true governing power, the regional governments see no reason to tolerate the national governments divvying out the goodies. Catalunyans see no reason to let Madrid have the first crack at everything."

Right on spot. In the case of Catalunya, as others have pointed out, it also has to do with the fact that the region has been hopelessly SJW-ized over the years, so they see the EU as a much more progressive authority than Madrid, which they invariably identify with Franco and the nationalist right.

Here's a clip showing an image taken from a primary school textbook that shows Catalunya's flag alongside the EU's. The textbook takes for granted EU membership as much as it takes for granted independence from Madrid:

https://youtu.be/aXnaCynhHnM?t=140

Anonymous Gor May 24, 2017 7:37 AM  

The native Spanish, whether Catalonian or not, really need to start having large families again like they did in the past. Either they do, or the "refugees" that they now welcome will be ruling over them in a few decades. It'd be a shame as the Spanish are a beautiful people.

Blogger Servant May 24, 2017 7:43 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Servant May 24, 2017 7:45 AM  

Convention of states movement makes me laugh my ass off.

Congress absolutely refuses to take responsibility for the mess they created, no way a bunch of state legislators put it on their shoulders.

Things that would need to pass:

Ending of entitlements
Go back clause
Balanced budget
Fair tax
Removal of Congress power abuse clause
Sunset provision

None of those return justice or liberty to our nation. That comes from the people, and we have surrendered it. Nor are any of the reforms i listed likely to happen, as many of them wind up in bloody conflict.

It is no accident that vd thinks our hope lies in the strong man. Congress should be our saving grace but we wanted direct election of senators. They have ceded all power they held to beureaucrats.

The US as taught to you in civics class no longer exists. That is the US that could have been saved by a convention.

It's really hard to find that many men.

Blogger J.M. May 24, 2017 7:48 AM  

great_o'rety wrote:Who's next? Italy? Germany? I'd personally have nothing against the latter. The Polish-German border had been the most peaceful one in all Europe as long as Germany consisted of myriad of petty dukedoms, countships, bishoprics and free imperial cities. Then, of course, the British interfered breeding Prussia to become a monster that not only devoured PLC (their original plan) but also all those petty German states (sans Austria) they'd rather see multiplying. Hence WW1 and WW2. Man proposes God disposes.

And why don't we dismantle the U.S., England and take Poland of the Coast (originally all of what is now the Polish Coastline was German up to Köngisberg. I am pretty sure the French were a lot better when England was just England and not UK (let alone Africans, Hindus, etc. etc) and the English and Americans would be happier, living in their city states with no power being pushoever to everybody... Idiot.

Blogger VD May 24, 2017 7:50 AM  

And why don't we dismantle the U.S

What do you think is happening already? There will be five or more states in the place of the imperial USA by 2050.

Anonymous burgmeister May 24, 2017 8:07 AM  

The native Spanish, whether Catalonian or not, really need to start having large families again like they did in the past. Either they do, or the "refugees" that they now welcome will be ruling over them in a few decades.

They were ruled by Islam in the past.

It will happen again, and Reconquista 2.0 will happen again - but much bloodier than the first one.

Anonymous Dyskord May 24, 2017 8:12 AM  

If we're being honest california is already a seperate nation. Even the residents think so.
New York might be proudly American at the working class level but at the top the idea is already fermenting.
Each election cycle the divide gets bigger.
Though I doubt it will be actual Americans who secede. The loudest voices and actual secesionists will be Mr 2nd gen American Haziz and third gen American Tobani and Monica whose been an American for 15 years but is still proudly Swiss.

Blogger great_o'rety May 24, 2017 8:29 AM  

J.M. wrote:

And why don't we dismantle the U.S., England and take Poland of the Coast (originally all of what is now the Polish Coastline was German up to Köngisberg. I am pretty sure the French were a lot better when England was just England and not UK (let alone Africans, Hindus, etc. etc) and the English and Americans would be happier, living in their city states with no power being pushoever to everybody... Idiot.


Preach it to the Liechtensteinians. And originally only part of what is now the Polish Coastline was Prussian up to Königsberg and Prussia was a Polish fiefdom.

Blogger Lucas May 24, 2017 8:30 AM  

California will be "free"!

Blogger modsquad May 24, 2017 8:54 AM  

650 Years Ago: How Venice Rigged the First, and Worst, Global Financial Crash

http://american_almanac.tripod.com/pbgbardi.htm

Blogger Abyssus Invocat May 24, 2017 8:55 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Abyssus Invocat May 24, 2017 8:56 AM  

Barcelona is already overrun by 3rd world scum. I think secession might good for Spain but Barcelona is going to end up
looking like Dakar.

Blogger Sillon Bono May 24, 2017 9:18 AM  

VD wrote:Look VD, the Catalonian issue is not what it looks like from the outside, Catalonia is nothing but Barcelona and its surroundings, the Catalonians (once the brightest and best of the country) are a now joke of their former selves.

I am very familiar with Barcelona. You don't seem to grasp that they are economically better able to survive on their own without the rest of Spain. The EU makes that a much more feasible possibility now, for the reasons mentioned.

Spain contributes EUR 9.9 billion to the EU, and receives 13.6 billion. Catalonia (or as you say, Barcelona) net-contributes between EUR 11 and 15 billion to the rest of Spain every year. So, it's easy to see that the Catalonians have done the math and understand that they can afford to go it alone.


Yeah, that is what the Catalonians have been saying for as long as Franco died, I know that tune pretty well.

Look all the independent sentiments there have been manufactured by idiots (converged oligarchs) with a budget.

I reiterate my point which you do not seem to address at all, budget arguments aside they want to have their cake and eat it, they want the rest of Spain to pay for their fantastic adventures in a world of color and fantasy.

If Catalonia goes independent they will become a dictatorship state in less than 2 legislatures. You have no idea the level of leftism there.

I'm all fine with that, if that's what they want fine, but they should do so at their own peril and not demanding parachutes.

As I said before, most Spaniards are tired of listening to "muh hecho diferencial" and "España nos roba".

They can go fuck themselves for all anybody cares.

VD, as a clever person that you are, you should not forget that a foreginer's knowledge of a country and culture is no different from the insects on the surface of a pond observing the bottom.

Blogger Ransom Smith May 24, 2017 9:22 AM  

I need to call my cousin. Who wanted to reinstate the Kingdom of Bavaria and make Edmund Stöber the king.

Blogger VD May 24, 2017 9:27 AM  

I reiterate my point which you do not seem to address at all, budget arguments aside they want to have their cake and eat it, they want the rest of Spain to pay for their fantastic adventures in a world of color and fantasy.

I don't need to address the obvious. They think they are going to get the money from the EU. They can't get the money from Madrid; they will have already done that by virtue of the secession and not being a net outflow.

They can go fuck themselves for all anybody cares.

That's not true. Madrid doesn't want to let them go for the same reason that no central government embraces less power over fewer people with less tax revenue.

Blogger Cail Corishev May 24, 2017 9:36 AM  

Guys, pro independence Catalonian and vasque parties are SJW converged.

Then the rest of Spain should be glad to be rid of them.

Decentralization is always advantageous in the long run.

That's why I automatically support all secessionist or independence movements. The South? Absolutely. Puerto Rico? Adios. California? Go for it. That part of California that wants to be Jefferson? Sounds great. Aristotle for the win:

"if the citizens of a state are to judge and to distribute offices according to merit, then they must know each other's characters; where they do not possess this knowledge, both the election to offices and the decision of lawsuits will go wrong.

"When the population is very large they are manifestly settled at haphazard, which clearly ought not to be. Besides, in an over-populous state foreigners and metics will readily acquire the rights of citizens, for who will find them out?"

He also said you should be able to view the whole state, and I don't think he meant from space.

Blogger Lazarus May 24, 2017 9:51 AM  

Vox, Infogalactic lists 6 active secessionist movements in Italy. Do any of them have legs?

Blogger modsquad May 24, 2017 9:58 AM  

Sillon Bono wrote:
I reiterate my point which you do not seem to address at all, budget arguments aside they want to have their cake and eat it, they want the rest of Spain to pay for their fantastic adventures in a world of color and fantasy.


Quebec is operating under the same premise. Many of them want to leave Canada, without obligation to the national debt while still being allowed to use the Canadian passport. The goal is to assume all decision making responsibilities without any repercussions to the outcome of those decisions. The only thing that's really stopped them the last 20 years was the position taken by the natives in northern Quebec. They essentially said if Quebec leaves, their reservation lands are not going with them. The bulk of the Quebec's hydro electric projects are built on reservation land.

The last referendum they held in 1995 was the breaking point for English Canada. The next time Quebec holds one, English Canada will be holding the door open for them and waving 'goodbye' before the final vote is in. The only voice begging for them to stay will be from the media, confirming the cause for independence is nothing but a rigged ploy by the elites running the country to escalate their looting of everyone.

Blogger great_o'rety May 24, 2017 10:14 AM  

Competition is the engine of civilization. Let them divide. The more the merrier

Blogger Antonio From Spain May 24, 2017 10:18 AM  

Sillon, I explained the basics of the Catalonian situation in 2015 on this very blog.

By the way, Josep Tarradellas, the president of Catalonia's Generalitat who had been exiled during Franco's years, warned us about this in the early 1980s.

But they facts don't rhyme well with present-day narratives and so the independentist mythology goes on.

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2015/10/mailvox-catalonian-independence.html

Blogger Johnny May 24, 2017 10:29 AM  

What would seem to be the case is that the formation of large political entities is caused by the tendency the large entities to openly take over or to exploit the smaller ones. As current European politics largely prevents open warfare to hold things together, these smaller units are free to spin off. But that is going to hold up only so long as the current political order holds up.

Cities are always centers of wealth because that is where the rich people and politically connected live. But one wonders, if the city pulls away from its region politically, will that wealth hold up, or is it actually a kind of regional exploitation that needs to be connected to the region?

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey May 24, 2017 10:29 AM  

"The last referendum they held in 1995 was the breaking point for English Canada."

It goes back farther than that. Sure, they may want to have it both ways, but there's also the point that if they wanted to secede, they should have done it back in the 60's or 70s. Multiculturalism and immigration have (as Trudeau intended) made English Canada less English, and French Canada less French. Filipinos, [dot] Indians, Chinese, Iranians, and Pakistanis don't support independence for Quebec.

http://www.pier21.ca/research/immigration-history/canadian-multiculturalism-policy-1971https://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/05/13/world/americas/13canada.html

Anonymous Lett Gou May 24, 2017 10:58 AM  

Sorryto go OT, but this is a fantastic clip of a SkyNews dhimmi getting owned by a former SAS serviceman - "you absolutely can lock them up".

Blogger Matamoros May 24, 2017 11:08 AM  

Where's Franco when you need him?

Blogger Jourdan May 24, 2017 11:38 AM  

Interestinly, given Spain's 20th Century history, the army has as its guiding principle the duty to ensure Spain's unity as a nation-state. If Catalonia tries to go its own way, I suspect that army will take that duty very seriously.

Anonymous rienzi May 24, 2017 11:38 AM  

I may be wrong on this, but can't a single EU member block the admission of any new EU state?

If that's the case, Madrid could really put a hurt on any independent Catalonia. No free movement of goods, no Schengen. Hell, they could just cut the rail lines at the border.

The Catalans really ought to think separation all the way through, but I'm afraid they won't. It's been SJW territory for a hundred years at least.

Anonymous Gen. Kong May 24, 2017 12:08 PM  

Letting them go off into their own fantasy SJW-land with direct access to EUSSR fake-money borrowed from the Banksteins who control its issue could have the positive end results of bringing about the demise of the EUSSR and NATO faster in the long run, plus the possibility of pushing the remainder of Spain rightward - maybe even to the point of leaving the EUSSR and NATO, which would be to the benefit of the Spanish. Same principle applies to Scotland other others who want to leave fake nation-states who serve as EUSSR or otherwise as middlemen for Banksteins.

Blogger Johnny May 24, 2017 12:14 PM  

Jourdan wrote:Interestinly, given Spain's 20th Century history, the army has as its guiding principle the duty to ensure Spain's unity as a nation-state. If Catalonia tries to go its own way, I suspect that army will take that duty very seriously.

It would be a matter of what the political class decides. The certain thing is that it is the politics of the thing that will decide the outcome, not the finance this or that stuff.

Blogger Antonio From Spain May 24, 2017 12:18 PM  

49. rienzi, yes, the admission of a new member state requires unanimous approval. For two decades the Catalanist leaders told their people that this was a piece of cake because their great leader Pujol was greatly respected among European leaders. Then one day Artur Mas, Pujol's political heir, unilaterally decided to go to the UE, was unanimously ignored and had to admit that EU membership was not impossible but they might be left out. http://www.lavanguardia.com/vida/20170322/421093641136/artur-mas-admite-que-no-es-segura-la-permanencia-de-cataluna-en-la-ue-si-se-independiza-pero-tampoco-es-imposible.html

The party that was once led by Jordi Pujol and later by Artur Mas is the one that initiated the "procés sobiranista" and has dropped from hegemonic power to fourth place, went through a split up and then had to change its name.

Veteran Catalanist leaders such as Pilar Rahola have long warned that the "procés sobiranista" was "riducule" and "pathetic" and that it was lead by "personal and party interests above the common good".
http://www.naciodigital.cat/noticia/90874/pilar/rahola/fa/mesos/fem/ridicul

But all that is relatively unimportant.

When the presently-governing center of right Spanish party needed support to form a government, the first party to offer their support was .... Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya, the far-left Catalanist independentists. But pro-independence pundits didn't comment about that.

As I said here in 2015 this is just a colossal scam. http://voxday.blogspot.com.es/2015/10/mailvox-catalonian-independence.html

Blogger Antonio From Spain May 24, 2017 12:24 PM  

50. Gen. Kong, about leaving NATO, the last Spanish political figure to *seriously* oppose NATO was Admiral Carrero Blanco, who was considered Franco's heir. Recently declassified CIA documents reveal how much the land of the free and the home of the brave had to do with the Admiral's assassination a few meters away from the US embassy shortly after an interview with Kissinger.

Blogger VD May 24, 2017 12:31 PM  

Vox, Infogalactic lists 6 active secessionist movements in Italy. Do any of them have legs?

Possibly the Northern League, but probably not if Italy leaves the EU.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener May 24, 2017 12:39 PM  

A dollar collapse would be the death of the imperial USA.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 24, 2017 1:14 PM  

I have to admit, I never understood the "Worthless, criminal, lying, parasitic [folks who want to leave]! They'll immediately fail and degenerate into a dictatorship! How dare they try to leave! We MUST stop them!" mindset.
If you hate [Scots |Quebecois |Catalans |Basques] and think they are a net drain on your economy, corrupt your children, prey on your population, steal your money, distort your politics and are handing you over to your enemies, why on Earth not just let them go?

Blogger Antonio From Spain May 24, 2017 1:18 PM  

56. because it's not about "they wanting to go" it's a scam by political elites.

Blogger Sam Spade May 24, 2017 1:25 PM  

50. Gen Kong" Same principle applies to Scotland other others who want to leave fake nation-states who serve as EUSSR or otherwise as middlemen for Banksteins."

Spain a fake nation state? What the hell are you talking about? If I didn't misunderstand you, you have no idea of the history of Spain. Spain

Spain is a nation since the XV century. Catalonia was never a nation, it was only part of the Kingdom of Aragon. This one united with the kingdom of Castilla with the marriage of the Catholic monarchs in 1469.

Blogger Sam Spade May 24, 2017 1:33 PM  

56. Snidely Whiplash

I personally don't care if they want to leave. But It's tiring to hearing them play the victim everytime with lies.

In the schools there they change the history taught, with falsehoods to settle their victim narrative.

My opinion is a Referendum should be celebrated there to let them decide what they want. And it's not clear the referendum would win.

The problem is the corrupt Cuckservatives in gobern here (Partido Popular) won't allow it because:

- It's not legal (Not that I care about that)
- They feed from the narrative that they are the only ones oposing the secesionsts,the only patriots, when they are fucking traitors to Spain. They need the secesionist enemy to justify their pitty existence.

Blogger JP May 24, 2017 1:34 PM  

All the more reason to get rid of them!

Blogger JP May 24, 2017 1:37 PM  

Divide, by Disturbed:

I want to tear a big hole in what is to be,
To end all this infatuation with unity,
I'm seeking my salvation alone again,
I never needed to be one of you anyway
Don't wanna be another player losing in this game
I'm trying to impress upon you
We're not the same

Blogger JWM in SD May 24, 2017 1:40 PM  

"That's not true. Madrid doesn't want to let them go for the same reason that no central government embraces less power over fewer people with less tax revenue."

Probably true. I was in Barcelona for a week back in September after a Mediterranean cruise which departed from there. Very nice city with a robust tourist scene...nicer than Madrid in my opinion. It reminded me of SF.

Blogger Antonio From Spain May 24, 2017 1:50 PM  

61. JP...

Josep Pla, the greatest Catalan writer of the 20th century said:

"a Catalan is a being who has spent his life being 100% Spanish and now they tell him he has to be some other thing"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH_l6PpYvio&feature=youtu.be&t=2m17s

Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 24, 2017 1:57 PM  

Antonio From Spain wrote:56. because it's not about "they wanting to go" it's a scam by political elites.
Call their bluff. And if they come crawling back in 20 years, begging to be allowed back in, line the traitors up and execute them. dragging it out this way gives them power without responsibility.

Blogger Antonio From Spain May 24, 2017 2:02 PM  

64. the ones who have the power to call the bluff are part of the scam.

Anonymous DonReynolds May 24, 2017 2:07 PM  

Secession movements are entertaining parlor chat, but to move beyond the parlor, we would have to talk about PROCESS. It is harmless enough to talk about moving from point A to point B, whatever those points might be, as long as no one talks about HOW and WHEN and WHERE. Point A is usually the present and Point B is usually the goal and right now the big divide is the goal itself. Some would say Point B is world government and others would say Point B is a breakup of mega states into smaller independent states. It is even possible to talk in terms of both....a breakup of mega states and the resulting independent states being subject to global "supervision". Yes, it makes me dizzy too.

The easy way to fill in the blanks is just to assume there will be a big shootout or civil war and the winner will ultimately decide. Yes, lots of blood and destruction, and the victors will write the next set of history books. I doubt it will be so simple....because it never has been.

The more "peaceful" alternative to civil war (we are told) is simply to resolve this at the ballot box. Put the measure to a vote and then it will be done without anybody getting hurt. Of course, that was exactly how the Confederate States of America was created. Only the state of Tennessee voted on the issue of secession TWICE....first rejecting it and after Fort Sumter, the voters approved it.

Based on my own discussions, there seem to be few facts. First, at the present moment, none of the secession movements have the power to force the issue with their own national government...military, political, or economic. Second, the national government is unsustainable and will fail of it's own foolish policies, even if no one wants it to fail. The wheels will soon come completely off the gravy train. So the best solution to many people is simply to wait for the national government to crash and burn of it's own policies. Regional entities can declare their own borders and piece together a new independent state.


Blogger Snidely Whiplash May 24, 2017 2:17 PM  

Antonio From Spain wrote:64. the ones who have the power to call the bluff are part of the scam.
Suddenly it crystalizes. Exactly like our politics, then.
Thanks

Blogger Sam Spade May 24, 2017 2:19 PM  

65. Antonio From Spain "64. the ones who have the power to call the bluff are part of the scam."

I can confirm they don't want to call the bluff for the reasons I stated some messages ago.

"- They feed from the narrative that they are the only ones oposing the secesionsts,the only patriots, when they are fucking traitors to Spain. They need the secesionist enemy to justify their pitty existence."

Blogger Antonio From Spain May 24, 2017 2:22 PM  

67. yes, I made the comparison in 2015: http://voxday.blogspot.com/2015/10/mailvox-catalonian-independence.html

Blogger Antonio From Spain May 24, 2017 2:35 PM  

68. I agree, Sam Spade.

If anything you understate the case. This catastrophic system was imposed from Madrid (with plenty of money from Germany and threats from the US).

As early as the 1980s Catalanist leader Tarradellas was warning that the process to grant powers to regional governments had been too hasty and "si no hay unidad en España... no nos salvaremos ... no creo que podamos salir adelante"

http://www.fnff.es/HtmlRes/Files/Entrevista-a-Tarredellas-Diario-16-14-enero-1981-3.pdf

Blogger tz May 24, 2017 2:43 PM  

Half OT, but Paul Gottfried uses Conservativism Inc but identifies that they have been cucked, using gay marriage as one example

Blogger Sam Spade May 24, 2017 2:46 PM  

70. Antonio From Spain

I read your mailvox from 2015 and it's great. You are far more knowledgeable and articulate than mes about the case. I recommend to people interested in this case to read it.

Also, thanks for your great posts. Greetings from Madrid!

Blogger Antonio From Spain May 24, 2017 2:51 PM  

72. Thanks!

Blogger Nate May 24, 2017 3:02 PM  

"what are the chances that the imperial US union, which was imposed by force 150 years ago, is going to survive for much longer, especially now that 80 million foreigners are culturally enriching it?"

STOP TALKING. MY NETHER REGIONS CANNOT GET ANY MORE ENGORGED.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents May 24, 2017 3:07 PM  

There's a lot more money to be made in continuously talking about secession than in actually seceding. Talking about secession means money from suckers. Actually seceding means someone has to do some work governing. How much secession talk is serious, and how much of it is LARPing and scamming suckers?

Anonymous Daniel H May 24, 2017 4:41 PM  

It saddens me that Catalonia would break away from Spain. They share so much history, but it is the choice of the Catalonian people. Maybe the King of Spain and Aragon can represent a unifying symbol and force for good.

That said, I adamantly support the preservation of smaller, minority languages. The world is a better place that smaller languages are not only preserved, but that they thrive. Just think of what has been lost by the French effort in the 19th century to stamp out most of the regional dialects. What has been lost that the the Celtic languages are barely hanging on in Wales, Brittany and the west of Ireland. The list can go on.

Anonymous Gen. Kong May 24, 2017 4:45 PM  

Sam Spade wrote:
50. Gen Kong" Same principle applies to Scotland other others who want to leave fake nation-states who serve as EUSSR or otherwise as middlemen for Banksteins."

Spain a fake nation state? What the hell are you talking about? If I didn't misunderstand you, you have no idea of the history of Spain. Spain

Spain is a nation since the XV century. Catalonia was never a nation, it was only part of the Kingdom of Aragon. This one united with the kingdom of Castilla with the marriage of the Catholic monarchs in 1469.


Sam, I am aware of the history of the former nation-state of Spain. It's been a fake nation-state ever since its obviously totally corrupt and treasonous elites signed its sovereignty away to the Bankstein-controlled central committee of the EUSSR in return for fake-money. It's nothing more than a EUSSR okrug now serving as a gateway for the African/Musloid invasion of Europe. France and Germany are fake nation-states too. So is Britain, as it really hasn't been removed from the control of (((those))) who have planned the extermination of its natives, along with the natives of every other European former nation.

Anonymous Gen. Kong May 24, 2017 4:50 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:Antonio From Spain wrote:
64. the ones who have the power to call the bluff are part of the scam.

Suddenly it crystalizes. Exactly like our politics, then.

Thanks


Yep. Ditto for the rest of the "free" world. Fake. Banana. Empire.

Blogger Antonio From Spain May 24, 2017 5:11 PM  

76. "That said, I adamantly support the preservation of smaller, minority languages."
That has always been the case in Spain.
Even in Franco's time, the Catalan language for example was being used and received public support and awards: https://infogalactic.com/info/Premi_Sant_Jordi_de_novel%C2%B7la

There is an American movie with Ava Gardner filmed in the early 1950s in Tossa de Mar, Catalonia, where the first lines are spoken in the local Catalan dialect. Here is the French dubbed version that maintains the opening lines in Catalan:

https://youtu.be/pCkhqxif8Q4?t=1m53s

Blogger Antonio From Spain May 24, 2017 5:16 PM  

a 1951 British movie, not American.

Anonymous yuge life May 25, 2017 9:16 PM  

So are we seeing a repeat of a Spanish Civil War reigniting a Nationalist Spirit across Europe?

History rhymes and there are plenty of ANTIFA who would love to see a cause they could fight and die for in the borders of Europe.

Do we know if Soros has a short position in Spanish Bonds?

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