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Friday, June 02, 2017

Alt-Retard economics

Having seen and heard a few economically illiterate morons pop up and advocate NATIONAL SOCIALISM as some sort of answer to globalism and free trade, I decided that I would take the five minutes required to demonstrate that national socialism is A) not a coherent economic theory or program, B) not a viable economic system, and C) structurally doomed to fail even faster than the current US system is today.

A) National socialism is not a coherent economic theory.

"The basic feature of our economic theory is that we have no theory at all."
- Adolf Hitler

B) National socialism is not a viable economic practice.

USA 6-year budget deficit to revenue, 2010-2016
26.8 percent

National Socialist Germany 6-year budget deficit to revenue, 1933-1939
62.9 percent

C) National Socialism was structurally doomed to fail even faster than the current US system is today.

Both the current US system and the historical Nazi systems were dependent upon credit booms. But the Nazi debt-spending was 135 percent worse than the USA's insanely profligate ways. The ad hoc National Socialist economics meant that the Nazis either had to surrender to the bankers on whom they had declared metaphorical war or engage in material imperialist war to acquire the resources to pay off their rapidly growing debts.

Anyone who advocates national socialism as an economic solution is either totally ignorant or literally retarded. It is even less credible than libertarianism, free trade, or globalism. Frankly, to call it "retarded" is probably a little too generous.

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212 Comments:

1 – 200 of 212 Newer› Newest»
Blogger Andre B June 02, 2017 8:31 AM  

Marvelous.

Anonymous hitler June 02, 2017 8:31 AM  

w-w-welll...........

Anonymous Lazarus North June 02, 2017 8:31 AM  

But real national socialism has never been tried!

Anonymous Mike x June 02, 2017 8:31 AM  

Sorry for the double post but this seems more on-topic on this thread. Can you please delete the duplicate on the other thread?
------------

First off, it is as much a mistake to conflate National Socialism with Hitler as it is to conflate Wall Street and Adam Smith...

You won't find anything but rhetoric in Mein Kamph. Though interesting enough, all of Hitler's popular rhetorical ideas were American in origin (eugenics, Henry Ford, Manifest Destiny...)

Have you studied Gottfried Feder and Gregor Strasser? Did you know their ideas predate the Hitler regime by decades?

Strasserism has much in common with the Founding Father's view of economics, and continuing on with the populist/producerism tradition of Jackson, Huey Long, Pat Buchanan and right to his the campaign-version of Trump...

Of course the reality of implementing Strasserism in Weimar Germany was nill. The (((Globalists))) controlled at least 50% of Germany, yielding two choices for National Socialists: 1) gradual submission i.e. cucking, or 2) taking total power (hmmm, this all seems so familiar...)

But in taking power, Hitler chose to side with the generals and bankers and had the Strasserites purged or shot. In the end the Swamp won, and so it goes.

Blogger Michael June 02, 2017 8:34 AM  

Is "National Socialism" materially different than "Garden Variety Socialism"?

Blogger RobertDWood June 02, 2017 8:38 AM  

The train is fine.

Blogger Pteronarcyd June 02, 2017 8:40 AM  

Superb! Anyone doubting your concise assessment needs to familiarize himself with the Reich's MEFO bill scam:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mefo_bills

Hitler's central banker out-jewed the Jewish central bankers. And, you are right in claiming that once the scam was initiated, it was a simple matter of time until Hitler had to start a war of conquest, before the scam came to light.

Anonymous krymneth June 02, 2017 8:42 AM  

National Socialism would also be converged in about three seconds flat nowadays. It starts with about 1.95 feet already in that grave anyhow, being "Socialist". Germany's implementation of it was also tied to an ideological system already, and I suspect many, nay, all of its modern-day advocates would actually discover they don't like the police state that comes with it. Because "police state" follows "idiotic economic system" like 8:01pm follows 8:00pm; the only way authoritarians can conceive of to handle failure of economic theories to being the promised benefits is to increase their authority.

If you could give the globalists a button that would instantly implement National Socialism in the US, they'd pound it so fast your ears would bleed from the sonic boom.

Anonymous Faceless June 02, 2017 8:43 AM  

@3

You know, if a country that was more together and could really do it right - say, for example, the Germans, or maybe the Austrians - it would totally work.

Blogger Ceasar June 02, 2017 8:44 AM  

U.S National Socialism = Complete destruction of white middle class and then lecturing them on how its their patriotic duty to just die and give others a chance.

Blogger Whitecloak June 02, 2017 8:54 AM  

That's a pretty solid argument. Alt-Retard econ isn't something I'm much interested in anyhow. I'd prefer the old American System- high, protective tariffs on outside industry, low internal barriers and a relatively free market at home (coupled with muscular trust busting to keep businesses regional at most). De-scale, not add yet another lumbering bureaucracy.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) June 02, 2017 8:55 AM  

Vox, have you given any recent thought to distributism?

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) June 02, 2017 8:57 AM  

Strasserism has much in common with the Founding Father's view of economics, and continuing on with the populist/producerism tradition of Jackson, Huey Long, Pat Buchanan and right to his the campaign-version of Trump...

From info galactic:

The name Strasserism came to be applied to this form of Nazism that developed around the brothers. Although they had been involved in the creation of the National Socialist Program of 1920, both called on the party to commit to 'breaking the shackles of finance capital'.[1] This opposition to "Jewish finance capitalism", which they contrasted to "productive capitalism," was shared by Adolf Hitler himself, who borrowed it from Gottfried Feder.[2]

This populist and antisemitic form of anti-capitalism was further developed in 1925 when Otto Strasser published the Nationalsozialistische Briefe, which discussed notions of class conflict, wealth redistribution and a possible alliance with the Soviet Union. His 1930 follow-up Ministersessel oder Revolution ('Cabinet Seat or Revolution') went further by attacking Hitler's betrayal of the socialist aspect of Nazism, as well as criticizing the notion of Führerprinzip.[3] Whilst Gregor Strasser echoed many of the calls of his brother, his influence on the ideology is less, due to his remaining in the Nazi Party longer and to his early death. Otto, meanwhile, continued to expand his argument, calling for the break-up of large estates and the development of something akin to a guild system and the related establishment of a Reich cooperative chamber to take a leading role in economic planning.[4]

Strasserism, therefore, became a distinct strand of Nazism that, whilst holding on to previous Nazi ideals such as palingenetic ultranationalism and anti-Semitism, added a strong critique of capitalism and framed this in the demand for a more "socialist-based" approach to economics.

It is disputed, however, whether Strasserism effectively represented a distinct form of Nazism. According to historian Ian Kershaw, "the leaders of the SA [which included Gregor Strasser] did not have another vision of the future of Germany or another politic to propose." But they advocated the radicalization of the Nazi regime, and the toppling of the German elites, calling Hitler's rise to power a "half-revolution," which needed to be completed.[5]


None of that sounds like the founding fathers.

Blogger Zaklog the Great June 02, 2017 9:06 AM  

I'm currently reading The Vampire Economy: Doing Business in Nazi Germany, published in 1939 by a German. It is disturbing, especially seeing the faint resemblances to our own economy. We're not nearly as bad, but there are definitely features in ours that were present in their complete catastrophe.

Blogger Johnny June 02, 2017 9:09 AM  

Germany under Hitler lacked the resources to take in Britain and France at the same time, and was unable to borrow from abroad because they had just finished reneging on the national debt. Hitler solved the problem by spending massively on the military and got the jump on his adversaries. And along the way produced an economic boom with spending. I have never looked into it, but it had to have been funded with domestic borrowing and taxes because that was the only source of funds.

The short term military return was enormous. With bravado he took Czechoslovakia, and by rolling the dice risk he took France. The expanding German empire produced the resources necessary to continue the war. Once the war got hot and heavy, National Socialism turned into a series of short term expedients, closer to acts of desperation than some kind of policy. It was a mix of an underlying capitalist society along with things like slave labor and the allocation of some resources by government fiat. And on top of all that, erratic demands made on the system by Hitler. Considering the chaotic nature of what was going it all turned out remarkably well, except for the war loss of course.

Anonymous Bobby Farr June 02, 2017 9:12 AM  

Perhaps they are intending to propose mercantilism or economic nationalism. I'm not sure what economic lessons the modern US could be expected to learn from 1930s Germany. It would seem to just be the economic agenda of the neocons taken to fantastic proportions (although the neocons would have a less justifiable foreign policy basis for such an economic program).

Blogger Gaiseric June 02, 2017 9:15 AM  

The problem is Hitler, see. If only WE could try National Socialism, we'd do it right!

Anonymous Magus June 02, 2017 9:15 AM  

These are the same breed of fools who think FDR, implementing the same policies in America, saved the US economy. They dress differently, but both think the great construction projects and welfare programs in the 30s saved America, and that the War was a great economic incentive.

They're cut from the same cloth, but think they're radicals and enemies.

Anonymous CarpeOro June 02, 2017 9:16 AM  

This thread was part of my reason for dropping out of academia. I took a class on Nazi Germany as a graduate student. There was the obligatory "Hitler bad" bit - reasonable to an extent and expected considering the History department at Wayne State was pretty left wing already (my under-grad work was done in an environment that was at least mixed, to the point there was a John Birch Society member still). Being aware of the deficit spending done to produce the Nazi economic miracle, needless to say I was a bit chagrined when the professor said something along the lines of "at least the economic model they used was good". This of course brought to mind that Socialist was part of the name of the NSDAP. The Left's dancing around the fact the Nazis were socialist never ceases to amaze in the amount of effort they are willing to exert.

Blogger Ransom Smith June 02, 2017 9:17 AM  

The alt retard ironic Nazis are very eager to argue how great everything in that era was.

And have this weird self righteousness.

It's always amusing to tell them how terrible things actually were. "Surprisingly" they get testy when I mention my family is from Germany originally and grandmother bemoaned the life in the 30s and 40s.

Blogger Gaiseric June 02, 2017 9:17 AM  

Bobby Farr wrote: I'm not sure what economic lessons the modern US could be expected to learn from 1930s Germany.
1) Imperialism is sowing the seeds for the rapid destruction of your nation in foreign wars.
2) Imperialism is the only way to pay for national socialism.

Ergo; don't do national socialism.

Blogger Viisaus June 02, 2017 9:20 AM  

In a certain way, National Socialism was a reactionary return to pre-modern barbarian culture - instead of borrowing money from bankers, you attacked your neighbors and took over their resources.

Blogger Viisaus June 02, 2017 9:22 AM  

Islam was once financed in the same manner as well, its medieval splendour made possible by the booty taken by Islamic conquistadors.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer June 02, 2017 9:25 AM  

I thought everybody already knew that the economic plan for the Nazis was to conquer people and take their stuff. Hitler didn't exactly keep this agenda quite after 1939.

Blogger Viisaus June 02, 2017 9:27 AM  

Nazi Germany was meant to be like giant Sparta (with the Slavs playing the role of Helots), and ancient Sparta was downright proud of its economic backwardness. Too much attention to financial affairs produced liberalism, like in Athens.

Blogger VD June 02, 2017 9:33 AM  

First off, it is as much a mistake to conflate National Socialism with Hitler as it is to conflate Wall Street and Adam Smith.

Bullshit. You retards running around claiming "Hitler did nothing wrong" can't hide behind "National Socialism is not Hitler". Hitler was the practical real-world version of National Socialist rule.

We know what National Socialist economics looked like because we have a decade of a historical National Socialist economy in action to analyze. Your arguments are no more convincing than the inevitable "true Communism has never been tried" nonsense.

Anonymous VFM #6306 June 02, 2017 9:35 AM  

I get the Nazi-paraphernalia-as-shock-speech. It is juvenile and not nearly as effective or noticeable as they think (WWII is only significant emotionally to the elderly non-social media folk).

But no true Nazi would ever follow Hitler's plans!

Come on 'tards. If you gotta lick the windows, don't lick the broken ones.

Blogger Johnny June 02, 2017 9:35 AM  

Viisaus wrote:In a certain way, National Socialism was a reactionary return to pre-modern barbarian culture - instead of borrowing money from bankers, you attacked your neighbors and took over their resources.

Socialism in general is an effort to move away from the modern mass production money driven society. Because they need the resources of large scale industry they stay with it but otherwise want to allocate returns in the way a tribal culture would do it. What you get is a function of what your status in the tribe is, not what you produce. What is produced is supposed to be a function of social need not profits.

The problem is that once a society is large enough that relationships are impersonal, the social interactions necessary to make a needs and allocation society is gone. It is not "From each according to ability, to each according to need." It becomes from each what we can compel, and to each by how much support they can give the ruling elite. And along the way, because it has perverse incentives, there is enormous potential for corruption. Venezuela is the current bad example.

Blogger Mountain Man June 02, 2017 9:43 AM  

@ 11

Amen...my sentiments exactly !
Bring back the America that has been lost

Blogger JaimeInTexas June 02, 2017 9:44 AM  

http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2017/6/2

Anonymous Mike x June 02, 2017 9:45 AM  

"We know what National Socialist economics looked like because we have a decade of a historical National Socialist economy in action to analyze."

Name the books on National Socialism economic theory you've read and studied.

Blogger Ransom Smith June 02, 2017 9:46 AM  

Name the books on National Socialism economic theory you've read and studied

As an actual Aryan, I'd much appreciate it if you moron larpers would stop appropriating my culture.

Please and thank you.

Anonymous Somme Boddet June 02, 2017 9:47 AM  

Based on the Dark Streams I've seen, Vox Day gets far more passionate about economics, and economic theory than any other subject. Complex topics like politics and religion? Vox proceeds serenely, almost mechanically, answering objections calmly, blocking and laughing when trolling persists. Economics? Hoo boy, the gloves are off.

I think second place would be when American's make ignorant assumptions about Europe.

Just a limited observation on my part.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) June 02, 2017 9:47 AM  

Name the books on National Socialism economic theory you've read and studied.

You first

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer June 02, 2017 9:48 AM  

I was a bit chagrined when the professor said something along the lines of "at least the economic model they used was good".

And thus demonstrates that the only thing he knew about it was it used the word socialism.

Nazi economic policy was mostly crony capitalism with lots of benefits to the citizen using deficit spending. If they had won the war, contrary to most alternate history novels, they would have ended up an economic basket case. Might of took several decades, but eventually they would have collapsed, much like the Soviet Union.

Blogger rumpole5 June 02, 2017 9:50 AM  

Excuse my ignorance, but was not Franco in Spain a National Socialist? Would not his 30 or so years of ruling Spain serve as an example of the merits or deficits of that system?

In my opinion, focusing on the economuc system is a mistake because such an approach completely ignores the cultural and genetic characteristics of the nation or people employing the system. Some nations are composed of large numbers of lazy, disorganized, dishonest, or stupid people. This has to affect the economic system.

Blogger JaimeInTexas June 02, 2017 9:51 AM  

"First off, it is as much a mistake to conflate National Socialism with Hitler ..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4ng_FK7WQY&ytbChannel=Natasa%20Mitic%20Radulovic

Blogger Johnny June 02, 2017 9:51 AM  

Mike x wrote:Name the books on National Socialism economic theory you've read and studied

For myself I have never even thought of "Hitler" finance as a function of some doctrine. What I know is that in the absence of massive inflation money can not be spent unless it is raised, and I know something about German finance during the war. "National Socialism" doesn't rise much above being a slogan, or so I believe.

Anonymous BBGKB June 02, 2017 9:51 AM  

banker out-jewed the Jewish central bankers. And, you are right in claiming that once the scam was initiated, it was a simple matter of time until Hitler had to start a war of conquest, before the scam came to light

Would the war of conquest for America involve more than just a few blocks of NYC, or say one building hosting the Bilderberg meeting?

Anonymous Rocklea June 02, 2017 9:52 AM  

The German loss was more costly than the Soviet loss, and yet, per capita the former have more money. The Russians love their nationalist president, and the Germans love their globalist leader of the free world, The Mother Of Vibrancy. But the Russians are having more kids and have lots of room for economic growth. The Mother Of Vibrancy would never be a Nazi. But that doesn't mean Nazi good.

Blogger VD June 02, 2017 9:52 AM  

"Bullshit. You retards" <--- someone seems triggered, lol.

You're spammed, Gamma Nazi.

Anonymous Iacobus June 02, 2017 9:55 AM  

The only thing the Nazis got right was noticing how pesky and scheming (((you know who))) are. To this day, we're reminded that the Nazis were the most evil people ever in the everness. Because, you know, Chosen People. (You have to remind them of the death toll communism and Uncle Joe inflicted, which makes the Holocaustianity look like small potatoes, which triggers them so hard.)

Other than that? Yeah. No.

Blogger dc.sunsets June 02, 2017 9:58 AM  

I doubt I'll live to see future historians give a proper name to the system in use today in the West. It might require German; they invent marvelously complex, compound words to elegantly describe complex compounds of combined idiocy.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) June 02, 2017 9:58 AM  

Other than that? Yeah. No.

You're forgetting about the snappy uniforms and airplanes.

Blogger Dirtnapninja June 02, 2017 9:59 AM  

rumpole5 wrote:Excuse my ignorance, but was not Franco in Spain a National Socialist? Would not his 30 or so years of ruling Spain serve as an example of the merits or deficits of that system?

In my opinion, focusing on the economuc system is a mistake because such an approach completely ignores the cultural and genetic characteristics of the nation or people employing the system. Some nations are composed of large numbers of lazy, disorganized, dishonest, or stupid people. This has to affect the economic system.


Franco wasnt a fascist at all. Franco wanted 2 thing..to keep out the communists and preserve the church. Other than that, he was pragmatic and not especially ideological.

Anonymous Mike x June 02, 2017 10:02 AM  

"You first"

Manifesto for Breaking the Financial Slavery to Interest by Gottfried Feder

The German State on a National and Socialist Foundation by Gottfried Feder

Hitler's revolution by Richard Tedor

Quotes from Otto Strasser...

ON PRIVATE PROPERTY. . .
“Whoever recognises the truth of the saying ‘Property makes free’, whoever affirms the necessity for a sustaining stratum in any satisfactory social order — must look forward to the new order which will aim at the de-proletarianisation of the people, and at our liberation from the social and economic monopolies under whose harrow no sort of freedom is possible.”

ON EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY . . .
“I have castigated and repudiated the liberal illusion of human equality, I nevertheless ardently champion the . . . doctrine that equality of opportunity is essential.”

ON EDUCATION . . .
“Hitherto the main object of schooling has been to ‘impart information’, but henceforward it will be regarded as at least equally important to train character.”

“The child will be growing up into the German cultural world, without having his mind unduly diverted towards alien cultures during the receptive years of childhood.”

ON THE LEADERSHIP PRINCIPLE . . .
“The Idea is divine in origin, while men are only its vehicles, the body in which the Word is made flesh. The leader is made to serve the Idea, and it is to the Idea alone that we owe absolute allegiance. The leader is human, and it is human to err.”
“The Idea is the decisive thing, and the individual conscience should be called upon to decide if there is any divergence between the Idea and the leader.”
“The man who is unaware of his own limitations inevitably crashes, and drags everything else down with him.”

ON CULTURE . . .
“Simplifying life would not mean a ‘relapse into barbarism’, for culture is not dependent ‘upon luxury or upon the gratification of needlessly created wants.”

ON MARXISM . . .
“Marxism is a socialism both liberal and alien, a doctrine whose liberal factors necessarily unfit it for the upbuilding of the socialist future.”

“Thanks to Marx, Engels, Kautsky etc., all typical liberals both by origin and by nature, socialism took the liberal path towards alienism, as was plainly shown by its relation to the International, its class-war tactics, and its materialist philosophy.”

ON MACHINERY . . .
“It is assuredly time . . . to end the tyranny of technique, to overthrow the dominion of the machine, and to make technique and the machine once more. servants instead of masters — for their dominion has been an unmitigated curse.”

ON URBAN LIFE . . .
“Those who understand that life in our huge tentacular towns is a danger to the race cannot fail to regard systematic de-urbanisation as urgently required for the sake of the people.”

“Owing to the rapid growth of towns, of enormous towns, tentacular towns, people have been uprooted from the countryside and ‘intellectualised’ in a way that has weakened their healthy instincts; this has been accompanied by a growing inclination to overrate both machinery and sport, these in their turn tending to hasten the general despiritualisation of life.”

ON LIBERAL DEMOCRACY . . .
“A genuine commonwealth of the people can . . . only be established by the destruction of the existing party system.”

“From their very nature political parties have a vital interest in sundering the people into factions.”

Blogger Johnny June 02, 2017 10:03 AM  

Iacobus wrote:the death toll communism and Uncle Joe inflicted, which makes the Holocaustianity look like small potatoes,

Going only by the internal body count, not the war stuff, Hitler was a piker. And for the commies it is way more than Joe Stalin. Mao starved around 30,000,000 people to death because he was funding a hoped for industrial boom by selling food to Russia. And of course Cambodia. What, around 2,000,000 dead in that small country.

Blogger dc.sunsets June 02, 2017 10:05 AM  

Support for NS (as described here) required a phenomenal level of rationalization among the German people.

When I look around at the last 35-50 years of growing irrationality (healthcare is a right, intolerance won't be tolerated, we can have a welfare state & open borders simultaneously, and promises of future cash flows can be based on 7% exponential growth while the most charitable figure for economic growth is <2%) I think about the vast edifice of rationalization required to sustain it all.

I conclude that what will follow this Long (delusional) Boom will be worse in some aspects than the depths of 1930-1946. It's terrifying, especially when one looks at the depths of what GERMANS experienced in that period, which make hardships in the USA look like a Caribbean Cruise Holiday.

Blogger Mountain Man June 02, 2017 10:08 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger tz June 02, 2017 10:08 AM  

Italy would provide a similar example, and il duce was pushing the economic side.

Either the market - organic supply and demand sets prices and QUANTITIES, or they are manipulated - tax, credit, subsidy, grants of monopoly - or the government sets them directly but has no means of calculating what they should be.

Socialism is the latter.

The problem with a totally free market is that it also sets market prices for child prostitutes, slaves, and assassins. It is perfectly amoral and a force of nature like fire, not natural (moral) law.

There are now discussions on the ex-libertarian alt-right about or with national socialists and economics, not in terms of duplicating the Reich, but asking which economic policies benefit and preserve the family and ethno-nationalism, which is the right question. Do we want small businesses or big ones?

Blogger Mountain Man June 02, 2017 10:10 AM  

My great grandparent were farmers in what was formerly Prussia. They survived the war only to be be shot by the Russians during a forced march.
My great grandfather saw early on what an idiot Hitler was and urged my grandfather to emigrate to the US before the window closed. He took his advice.
Unless you lived on a farm, the majority of life under Nazi rule, was filled with basic deprivation and hardship.
The first year under full Nazi occupation it wasn’t that way. But because they had no grasp of basic economics they " blew the wad” early on, making it nearly impossible to financially recover without engaging in war.
To give a couple of examples:
Under the first year of Nazi rule the government paid for EVERY family in the country ( dad,mom, children) to go on all expense paid trips to the southern coasts of Italy. Lavish salaries were granted ( by the government) to ALL employees despite shortened workweeks and lower productivity.

One year of all of this nonsense and the harsh financial reality smacked these “brilliant minds” right in the face.
Instead of acknowledging their incompetence they double downed and made plans for war.

The moral of the story - never grant a gamma unilateral authority

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) June 02, 2017 10:12 AM  

There are now discussions on the ex-libertarian alt-right about or with national socialists and economics, not in terms of duplicating the Reich, but asking which economic policies benefit and preserve the family and ethno-nationalism, which is the right question. Do we want small businesses or big ones?

All roads lead to distributism

Blogger dc.sunsets June 02, 2017 10:15 AM  

Germany had its NS. Didn't the rest of the world (prior to 1939) pretty much adhere to Corporatism (Mussolini's term for fascism in Italy?)

I guess we know which one won.

Define irony: Antifa girl chatting on xer iPhone, typing on xer binary computer, wearing designer clothes, applying brand-name make-up, coloring xer hair with Nice-n-Easy, etc., etc.

Everyone plays his or her assigned role as history marches on.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) June 02, 2017 10:18 AM  

Alt retard econ:

"Hitler did nothing wrong"

"Hitler didn't do national socialism right"

Blogger Kentucky Headhunter June 02, 2017 10:18 AM  

A couple of years ago I saw a movie on TCM called The Seventh Cross, in which Spencer Tracy plays a communist who escapes from a prison camp and is trying to get out of Germany. While on the run he hides out with an old friend and family man played by Hume Cronyn who has gotten a good-paying job in factory where he makes machine guns. Apparently the economy is booming and wages are way up in the lead up to the war. When I was watching the film I asked myself, how long does that guy think he's gonna get paid to make machine guns before there is going to be a war where they will be used? Tracy is good as the fugitive but the rest of the movie is just OK.

https://infogalactic.com/info/The_Seventh_Cross

Anonymous noxious windy June 02, 2017 10:19 AM  

He said it himself, "der führer ist die partei und die partei ist der führer!" You can't separate Hitler from Naziism without resorting to special pleading. Rentenmarks were that era's Venezuelan rare Pepes with the same bleak situation in the background. Modern Nazi apologists skip this part of history entirely with rare exception.

Blogger S1AL June 02, 2017 10:19 AM  

"All roads lead to distributism."

Distributism contains the same fundamental error as libertarianism: the belief that everyone is an erstwhile member of the white, Christian, self-motivated, middle class.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) June 02, 2017 10:20 AM  

Distributism contains the same fundamental error as libertarianism: the belief that everyone is an erstwhile member of the white, Christian, self-motivated, middle class.

How so?

Blogger Orthodox June 02, 2017 10:23 AM  

Many on the far-right rage against rootless cosompolitanism, but there's nothing more rootless or cosmopolitan than advocating for an alien ideology in response to having your nation hijacked by an alien ideology. If you're an American, you have a history and a culture. The more you can place current nationalist arguments into American history. Steve Sailer is great at this with immigration, pulling out writings by Franklin. Hamilton was a nationalist on economics.

The more American we become, the more alien our enemies become.

Blogger wreckage June 02, 2017 10:27 AM  

Harsh but fair. Merciful, even.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 June 02, 2017 10:29 AM  

Both the current US system and the historical Nazi systems were dependent upon credit booms. But the Nazi debt-spending was 135 percent worse than the USA's insanely profligate ways. The ad hoc National Socialist economics meant that the Nazis either had to surrender to the bankers on whom they had declared metaphorical war or engage in material imperialist war to acquire the resources to pay off their rapidly growing debts.

No wonder Hitler targeted Jews. He was essentially trying to get rid of his creditors.

Blogger dc.sunsets June 02, 2017 10:32 AM  

Under the first year of Nazi rule the government paid for EVERY family in the country ( dad,mom, children) to go on all expense paid trips to the southern coasts of Italy. Lavish salaries were granted ( by the government) to ALL employees despite shortened workweeks and lower productivity.

Economics discussions revolve around Economic Efficiency (see Frederick Winslow Taylor for the "one best way" mindset.) All this exists under a premise that there's an ideal, one-size-fits-all,-all-the-time framework if we can just discover it.

This is absurd. There are no static solutions in dynamic systems. But from today's "guaranteed basic income" to every version of socialism under the sun, we'll be treated to one promise after another, all of them false.

It's going to be a bumpy ride when the Long Boom ends and people begin to jump on one bandwagon after another, listening to charlatans and carpet-baggers promising an immediate return to the Milk-And-Honey Days.

People (experts and Joe Citizen alike) are even more ignorant about economics today than 100 years ago. 50 years of putting prosperity on the credit card will do that.

Blogger Orthodox June 02, 2017 10:34 AM  

He was essentially trying to get rid of his creditors.

Some people want to get rid of bankers to stop inflation. Others want to get rid of the bankers to direct inflation for their purposes.

Blogger Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus June 02, 2017 10:37 AM  

"Vox, you're just a Jew who hates White people!"

/typical NS after reading this

Blogger allyn71 June 02, 2017 10:37 AM  

All roads lead to distributism

“The socialists, therefore, in setting aside the parent and setting up a State supervision, act against natural justice, and destroy the structure of the home.”
― Pope Leo XIII, Rerum Novarum: Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII on Capital and Labor

Blogger Abdul June 02, 2017 10:42 AM  

So essentially Hitler ran up the credit card and then gassed the collection agent. Sounds like those UCC / fake lein sovereignty disinfo agents. (You are sovereign, you just can't use that status to steal money.)

Blogger S1AL June 02, 2017 10:43 AM  

@Josh -

"In Rerum novarum, Leo XIII states that people are likely to work harder and with greater commitment if they themselves possess the land on which they labour, which in turn will benefit them and their families as workers will be able to provide for themselves and their household."

Do you not see the false assumptions here? Do you think this statement is true of all people?

Or, perhaps:

"The kind of economic order envisaged by the early distributist thinkers would involve the return to some sort of guild system."

The problem with the guild system is that it is opposed to innovation and efficiency, just as unions are today. It stifles achievement by enforcing rigid cost codes. This is, of course, antithetical to the "property as the art of democracy" view, but internal contradictions are to be expected from utopian goals.

Moreover,

"Distributism puts great emphasis on the principle of subsidiarity. This principle holds that no larger unit (whether social, economic, or political) should perform a function which can be performed by a smaller unit."

Is contradictory to:

"Distributism reflects this doctrine most evidently by promoting the family, rather than the individual, as the basic type of owner; that is, distributism seeks to ensure that most families, rather than most individuals, will be owners of productive property."

And finally, distributism is incapable of handling the social shifts created by the existence of the digital revolution. It doesn't account for the fact that someone might possess almost no land, yet have property unimaginably greater than entire nations.

---

Now, this isn't to say that I disagree with the notions of distributism. I very much am in support of the expansion of the land-holding middle class. But I also recognize that distributism's other tenets inside stagnation and are contra each other.

Blogger ZhukovG June 02, 2017 10:43 AM  

@Josh(the gayest thing here): I like Distributism a great deal, but it runs smack into the human tendency to want the biggest piece of the pie.... and your piece too. Also, while it might work well in an economy similar to what existed in the ante-bellum South, I am not sure it could be properly implemented in an industrial society.

One possibility for Distributism in the future lies in the development of advanced automation and robotics. Then you might be able to translate the 'Family Farm' to the 'Family Factory'. This would allow an industrial economy while still having distributed ownership of production.

Blogger Gaiseric June 02, 2017 10:53 AM  

rumpole5 wrote:Excuse my ignorance, but was not Franco in Spain a National Socialist? Would not his 30 or so years of ruling Spain serve as an example of the merits or deficits of that system?

In my opinion, focusing on the economuc system is a mistake because such an approach completely ignores the cultural and genetic characteristics of the nation or people employing the system. Some nations are composed of large numbers of lazy, disorganized, dishonest, or stupid people. This has to affect the economic system.

Along those lines, Argentina's peronism is usually considered a local analog to fascism.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) June 02, 2017 10:54 AM  

One possibility for Distributism in the future lies in the development of advanced automation and robotics. Then you might be able to translate the 'Family Farm' to the 'Family Factory'. This would allow an industrial economy while still having distributed ownership of production.

Another possibility is further development of the gig economy

Blogger rumpole5 June 02, 2017 10:55 AM  

Here is the Mother earht travel blog's take on Franco:

"Franco's legacy had been an unprecedented era of peace and order, undergirded by his authoritarian grip on the country. While forced political stability enabled Spain to share in the remarkable period of economic development experienced by Europe in the 1960s, it suppressed, but did not eliminate, longstanding sources of conflict in Spanish society. The economic and social transformation that Spain experienced in the last decades of Francoist rule complicated these tensions, which were exacerbated as the regime drew to a close. At the time of Franco's death, change appeared inevitable. The form that the change would take and the extent to which it could be controlled were less certain."

I also learned that Franco was the head of the "Nationalist" party in Spain. It appears to me that he did an assessment of the deep emotional foundations of the Spanish people (church, king, family ties, and the like) and used these to hold his nation together through some rather turbulent times. Franco guaranteed a job to workers. That is definitely a socialist concept. To Franco's credit, he delivered an intact Spain to a constitutional monarch.

I think that Trump, like Franco, is ready and willing to retain and employ "socialist" ideas if they work. We already have a socialist system in this country. In part, the government provides all kinds of free services to the population. Examples are library (computer) services, park bathrooms, park water and showers, subsidized (and free) transportation services, subsidized housing, and food stamp debit cards. The government also makes private entities provide services that are subsidized or free. Examples are Emergency Room services, and restaurant and convenience store rest rooms. It is quite possible that We will end up with a national socialist system here that draws off of a competitive system among the able and gifted to provide the mimimum needs of the unabled and blighted. The impending technical revolution might make this possible.

Anonymous Grayman June 02, 2017 10:55 AM  

@48 DC

As usual you have a way with with words

When I look around at the last 35-50 years of growing irrationality (healthcare is a right, intolerance won't be tolerated, we can have a welfare state & open borders simultaneously, and promises of future cash flows can be based on 7% exponential growth while the most charitable figure for economic growth is <2%) I think about the vast edifice of rationalization required to sustain it all.

The cascade of failure should be truly awe inspiring. Look at news about Illinois being downgraded AGAIN in the credit markets. As one example, those Illinois pensions at worthless and cant be paid. Just the impacts of the pensioners "losing" their pensions (which were never possible to pay out anyway) is a massive cascade in a debt based system, as every dollar they no longer have is a dollar that can no longer be leveraged throughout the system, never mind the impact of faith in the system that is required for the fantasy to even stumble along as it currently is.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) June 02, 2017 10:56 AM  

And finally, distributism is incapable of handling the social shifts created by the existence of the digital revolution. It doesn't account for the fact that someone might possess almost no land, yet have property unimaginably greater than entire nations.

It's not just about land

Anonymous Bukulu June 02, 2017 10:58 AM  

BBGKB @ 39,

Well, there are certain sections of New York that I wouldn't advise you to try to invade...

Blogger S1AL June 02, 2017 11:00 AM  

"It's not just about land."

Right. So how do you bring about the distributive society without resorting to the sort of hyper-regulation that crushes innovation and advancement and liberty? How do you escape the seemingly inevitable endpoint of "feudalism without the nobility"?

Blogger RobertT June 02, 2017 11:05 AM  

Theorizing about economic theory would not be so bad if economists didn't turn their pet theory into a boot on our necks. It would make a great hobby for people with nothing else to do, but why turn it into a field of study when all it ever does is follow along watching as the economy does weird & strange things no one anticipated? We are thousands of years into this and no one has the answer so far.

Blogger ZhukovG June 02, 2017 11:05 AM  

@Josh(the gayest thing here):

"Another possibility is further development of the gig economy"

Agreed, in fact that is basically how I work these days and it's worked out pretty well so far.

Perhaps a combination of 'Gig' and Automation/Robotics will create conditions favorable to a future 'High Tech Distributism'.

Of course with robots you run the risk of them starting to say thing like, "I'll be back", in a thick Austrian accent.

Anonymous Rather, Not June 02, 2017 11:08 AM  

Vox, feel free to not answer this, but what is the difference between the National Socialist economic 'system' and the International Socialist economics? I don't care about Nazis enough to figure it out myself, but beyond 'it doesn't come even close to working' but what if anything of significance did the aryan nationalism change about the economic system?

My simplified version is that marxism/socialism/communism doesn't work and has failed every implementation. And Nazis fall into that bucket, even if they got conquered before their economic system could fail as comprehensively as the Soviet or Venezuelan socialists.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) June 02, 2017 11:09 AM  

Right. So how do you bring about the distributive society without resorting to the sort of hyper-regulation that crushes innovation and advancement and liberty? How do you escape the seemingly inevitable endpoint of "feudalism without the nobility"?

Massive transaction taxes and fees for M&A

Gig economy

Decentralized production

Employee owned companies

Multi generational family trusts

Anti trust enforcement

Regulatory environment that favors consumers, labor, and small business

These are just some ideas

Anonymous fop June 02, 2017 11:19 AM  

VD: "I have agreed not to call them alt-retard...much."

Hahaha!

Blogger wreckage June 02, 2017 11:19 AM  

@61, it was the Templars all over again?

Anonymous Grayman June 02, 2017 11:20 AM  

It would seem that one of the first things that has to be done is to stop looking at economic systems as one-size-fits-all. It’s clear that the society built and run by any one ethnic group may not be significantly reproducible for another ethnic group. Nigeria isn’t going to build the next Tokyo and you aren’t going to find a Mogadishu in Japan, even in a post-apocalyptic world.
The more relevant question would be what economic systems present long-term viability for the west assuming a core ethno state as a foundation. You will have multiple answers for various western ethno states. We need to develop an understanding of what systems can be implemented in a stable manner based on various cultural traits such a low-trust/high-trust, time preference, etc.
The historical record would appear to suggest that mixed ethno groups do not, as a general rule, allow for stable economic systems unless under strong authoritarian rule, and even then stability is only temporary and not intrinsic to the system.

Anonymous Grayman June 02, 2017 11:28 AM  

@79 Josh

You need a way for competition and the resulting stratification to be handled in a constructive manner as well. Even in the best case ethno-sate you will have your "bell-curve" ranging from the borderline retarded who will be motivated to do little more than eat sleep and masturbate, to the super workaholic who is 2+ SD over the average.
without some sort of mechanism in place the 2+ SD performers will drive the system into instability over time as the system stratifies or due to excess social stress if you intended to simply lock this instability down through authoritarianism.

Blogger Aeoli Pera June 02, 2017 11:33 AM  

Economy in the absence of religion is a moot point anyway.

Anonymous Peter #0231 June 02, 2017 11:34 AM  

For a fairly decent overview of NS "economics", take a look at Hitler's Beneficiaries by Gotz Aly.

Blogger dc.sunsets June 02, 2017 11:37 AM  

@72 Grayman, Illinois' plight is emblematic, for sure, and it's quite personal; I live in IL and my wife is "vested" in a public employee pension.

All future cash flow promises have a Present Value. While few people think explicitly about this, they still have a vague notion of "wealth" that mimics that PV.

The PV of a pension that promises 25 years of $50,000 annual payments (a modest public pension these days) is near $900,000 and whether someone "does the math" or not, in their minds they account for being "this wealthy."

If one adds Social Security, Medicare and any private or public pension expected to the savings of a typical upper-middle-class family you get a Pretty Big Figure for most of us.

It's all a fantasy, an illusory matrix of cross-linked contractual obligations where if one falls, they all fall.

All roads lead of credit collapse monetary deflation. We just don't know when. When the tide goes out, we'll discover nearly everyone is swimming naked...and it won't be pretty.

Blogger Ingemar June 02, 2017 11:37 AM  

Serious question (re: credit boom dependent economy):

When looking at all the things that exist in the world today (food, toys, medicines, machines, weapons) it is clear, even obvious, that they were more or less built with what has always existed on planet Earth. Why are the creation of these things contingent in how the economy is ordered (and why do they persist even when an economy collapses)?

Anonymous fop June 02, 2017 11:43 AM  

Distributism might work well within a blockchain economy.

Might be a way to keep people honest, while setting non-arbitrary limits. It's an intriguing thought experiment.

Blogger red clock June 02, 2017 11:43 AM  

I support National Capitalism with a eucivic and eugenic culture. You can't beat that.

Socialism fails primarily because it is inefficient in processing vast amounts of data regarding millions of people and their needs. Decentralized competitors in a capitalist system process this much better and prosperity results. I only recently understood this. Most (white) socialists are just economically ignorant, not malicious.

Blogger VD June 02, 2017 11:47 AM  

During the autumn of 1922, Strasser officially became a member of the Nazi Party and the SA.... Strasser resigned from his party offices on 8 December 1932

The guy was a member of the party for 10 years. His views can hardly be considered National Socialist dogma, much less more significant than Adolf Hitler's. This is particularly true considering that he was murdered by them in 1934.

Anonymous Grayman June 02, 2017 11:51 AM  

@86 DC

All roads lead of credit collapse monetary deflation. We just don't know when. When the tide goes out, we'll discover nearly everyone is swimming naked...and it won't be pretty.

At that point and for a period of time, we will go back to possession (and the arms to enforce it) will be 9/10ths of the law. Then we get to see what society arises on the other side.

TPTB ability to kick the can may be the 8th wonder of the world.


DC we should chat offline given your background let me know the best way to reach out.

Blogger JaimeInTexas June 02, 2017 11:58 AM  

From INfoGalactic's Fransico Franko page:

"Franco described the rebellion to a journalist in Oviedo as, 'a frontier war and its fronts are socialism, communism and whatever attacks civilisation in order to replace it with barbarism.'"

Gen. Franco was a complicated guy. I think of him like Andrew Jackson - some to admire and some to revile.

Franco was no a Fascist. He was a nationalist and an anti-communist who protected private property. Like Pinochet, Franco made no provision for a dynasty, working towards a stable future without barbarians. Even if it meant a lot of broken eggs.

What if the communists had won in Spain? I think that the Basques would have been worse off, IMO, for example.

Blogger dc.sunsets June 02, 2017 11:59 AM  

@82, It would seem that one of the first things that has to be done is to stop looking at economic systems as one-size-fits-all.

NS was a political movement promising to "build" Germany into an industrial giant, as I understand it. It did so but at the cost of all manner of economic, then political, then social chaos, death and suffering.

The last 100 years' economic "system" amplified production of our Modern Marvels, yes, but it embedded a host of (mostly invisible or ignored) costs. Social atomization, widespread unhappiness in the presence of previously unimaginable wealth and prosperity, mass-murdering Utopian schemes from International Socialism to "exporting democracy" and the Western Universalist Theocracy all were fueled by the Overspeeded Engine of Globalizing "Capitalism" lubed by Fiat Dollars, an ocean of Treasury Bonds and financial "innovation" AKA accounting gimmicks.

We got microprocessors, NASA's space program, engineering marvels galore, microwave ovens, TV's and Cars for even the poorest Americans, and even children are given handheld computer/camera/video-recorder/communication devices that outperform SF gadgets of 50 years ago.

What. Were. The. Costs? Bastiat's "what is seen and unseen" is clearly applicable here. I propose that the costs are measured mostly in social pathology, although pervasive chemical, pharmaceutical and heavy metal contamination of our food and water will become prominent headlines in coming years.

Never have so many vices been available to help people destroy themselves. Who among us knows what happens when 9 year old boys are given an iPhone or Galaxy S8 and proceed to find a quiet place to see just what all this on-line porn thing is all about? The next generation of people is having its brains rewired in ways we cannot predict.

The economic system that bequeathed us this cornucopia of Wonder (and worry) is nearing its end. I believe the period ahead will bitch-slap those who think life is One New Thing After Another, for we're due a period of utter stagnation.

Anonymous Brick Hardslab June 02, 2017 12:04 PM  

Why is no one addressing the elephant in the room? Moon bases and Antarctica colonies are not cheap. That's where all the money went.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer June 02, 2017 12:06 PM  

Who among us knows what happens when 9 year old boys are given an iPhone or Galaxy S8 and proceed to find a quiet place to see just what all this on-line porn thing is all about?

I think we are beginning to see what happens. iPhones have been around 10 years IIRC. Look at what is happening on college campuses regarding accusations of "rape." We are seeing what happens when young women, who have been fed a lot of nonsense regarding "empowerment" and grrrl power interact with young men whose concept of sexuality was informed by watching copious amounts of online porn.

Blogger Matthew June 02, 2017 12:07 PM  

"National Xism" is the wrong way to approach it.

First, your nation needs Nationalism. Then you can try---carefully---some economic and social -isms.

Blogger JaimeInTexas June 02, 2017 12:09 PM  

@90. VD

ha ha ha So much for not conflating National Socialism with Hitler.

From infogalactic Hitler's page:

"After World War I, Hitler returned to Munich.[73] Without formal education or career prospects, he remained in the army.[74] In July 1919 he was appointed Verbindungsmann (intelligence agent) of an Aufklärungskommando (reconnaissance commando) of the Reichswehr, assigned to influence other soldiers and to infiltrate the German Workers' Party (DAP). While monitoring the activities of the DAP, Hitler was attracted to the founder Anton Drexler's anti-Semitic, nationalist, anti-capitalist, and anti-Marxist ideas.[75] Drexler favoured a strong active government, a non-Jewish version of socialism, and solidarity among all members of society. Impressed with Hitler's oratorical skills, Drexler invited him to join the DAP. Hitler accepted on 12 September 1919,[76] becoming party member 555 (the party began counting membership at 500 to give the impression they were a much larger party).[77]"

Blogger JaimeInTexas June 02, 2017 12:12 PM  

@93. dc.sunsets

It is an occasional response of mine to conversations the usually start with how many inventions are due to the space program, as in NASA.

Like you stated, the intercontinental railway, micochips, cordless tools, etc. all would have invented in time. Government expenditures only accelerated the development but, at what cost?

Blogger dc.sunsets June 02, 2017 12:13 PM  

Ingemar wrote:Serious question (re: credit boom dependent economy):

When looking at all the things that exist in the world today (food, toys, medicines, machines, weapons) it is clear, even obvious, that they were more or less built with what has always existed on planet Earth. Why are the creation of these things contingent in how the economy is ordered (and why do they persist even when an economy collapses)?


To me, if I understand your question, the answer lies in a couple observations. Credit as a form of money is a way to facilitate trade. Its effect is uneven, however, both in its ability to pull production & consumption forward in time and in its direct effect in changing people's time preferences.

Add that "systems" vary in their ability to fertilize the actions of innovators and you get fairly major differences in oscillation amplitude in both "new & better" and the split between consumption and capital formation.

The biggest credit bubble in history fueled a massive movement of people into occupations serving institutions with first-access to credit (esp. Uncle Sam.) If this lasted long enough, EVERYONE would work in the medical, higher ed, military-ind-compl, refugee resettlement, welfare administration ("charities"), or the bureaucracy itself.

It's all fad. Fads all the way down.

Today we all want what's in front of us. A century ago it was a different set of stuff. A few decades into the future I think it will be a very different set than we see today.

My guess is that innovation will all but stop for quite some time, due to both collapsing capital availability and due to a mass rise in suspicion about industry, science, etc. People will see industry as poisoning them, capturing politics and then lying to them. They'll see science as full of lies and fakery. Innovators will be eyed with great suspicion, born of experience grasping the embedded costs of our recent decades of Magic Machines, costs whose visibility will grow and grow.

Cycles. Fads. Fashions. Waves. Nothing stays the same forever. Does this make sense?

Blogger dc.sunsets June 02, 2017 12:21 PM  

@98 In general, I look more fondly on conditions that arise organically as opposed to anything that resembles "industrial" or political policy. Bastiat is IMO one of the greatest minds in human history for his Broken Window Fallacy and the pervasive implications throughout the political economy.

Everything has costs, and almost all of the trouble in the world arises from not recognizing the entirety of the costs for every action, policy, etc. Most of the time, proponents of a plan do all in their power to ignore, lowball or obfuscate costs, and on whom they'll fall.

Blogger Ingemar June 02, 2017 12:24 PM  

@dc.sunsets

I guess it does? I think your explanation is a variant on "whatever you invest/subsidize in, you get more of" with the added detail of using credit as a means of investment.

If you'll permit me to replace "credit" with "promises" than I can see where a credit-boom-dependent economy collapses. Both sides of the transaction look like idiots, but the side who actually has a net positive means of funding itself is the lesser idiot.

Anonymous Grayman June 02, 2017 12:35 PM  

@99 DC

We may not like it but the cycle isnt so different from the raging forest fire that renews the forest by burning out the overgrown underbrush and fertilizing the soil with the ashes of those who couldn't stand the fire.
We dont particularly like it and lament the coming fire but its part of the greater cycle. the interesting question that we can hopefully address at some point,as a people, is how to build a society that can withstand the fire and benefit from the renewed growth that follows in its wake. Such an achievement would take humans to a level we have yet to reach and is probably something one of us would readily recognize.

I understand you have a life sciences background. I may be able to help in the employment front.

Blogger Student in Blue June 02, 2017 12:49 PM  

The concept of "it's not real socialism/communism/naziism/democracy when HE did it!" is inherently wish fulfillment. The ultimate test of something is when it actually tries to get implemented, after all. Otherwise you just have a bunch of dweebs standing around a collapsed bridge declaring that there's no way it could've been the blueprint's fault.

People screwing up, intentionally or not, must be accounted for. Redundancies must be put into play. To claim something doesn't count because it didn't play out according to plan is childish.

This applies to communism as it does to democracy as it does to naziism. If someone decides to screw it all up because they want to spend foolishly or acquire more power, that absolutely does not let that system off the hook. Especially if you're trying to compare these systems to each other, because every system has people in it trying to screw the system to benefit themselves.

Blogger JaimeInTexas June 02, 2017 12:52 PM  

@100. dc.sunsets June 02, 2017 12:21 PM

"Most of the time, proponents of a plan do all in their power to ignore, lowball or obfuscate costs, and on whom they'll fall."

All too often it is that they really do not know and cannot bring themselves to acknowledge their ignorance. And there are others who are so arrogant as to claim they know all the consequences. The knowledge to know/understand all the ramifications of an actions can be so many as to say infinite and outside the capacity of a single human being to fully comprehend.

Blogger S1AL June 02, 2017 12:58 PM  

"Socialism fails primarily because it is inefficient in processing vast amounts of data regarding millions of people and their needs."

Socialism fails because it disincentivizes achievement and incentivizes blind dogma. The absolute best-case scenario is that your birth rates collapse in the middle term and the socialist scheme collapses completely.

---

"Massive transaction taxes and fees for M&A

Gig economy

Decentralized production

Employee owned companies

Multi generational family trusts

Anti trust enforcement

Regulatory environment that favors consumers, labor, and small business"

Did you miss the part where I said "without hyper-regulation"?

And employee-owned companies have been tried. A lot. They consistently fail for the same reason that socialism fails.

That said, companies with performance-based incentives driven by tangible measures actually achieve the goal of creating a "sense of ownership" without sacrificing individual incentive.

As for family trusts... how many times do you have to watch something collapse from one generation to the next before you realize that the apple can, in fact, fall far from the tree?

Anonymous Fourteen Eightyeight June 02, 2017 1:01 PM  

Vox is ridiculous to act like an SJW when facing the ultimate red pill. Go research the conditions of Germany before 1933. The level of economic collapse and degeneracy that the (((chosen ones))) brought about German families is unheard of, and the future of ALL white Americans will be the same if you don't do something about (((them)))). Watch "Greatest Story Never Told" on YouTube, yes, its long documentary, but I guarantee at least 50% of you that watch it will get red pilled after seeing it was Germany who fought against (((Fiat Currency Capitalism))) and (((Communism))) while (((USA))) was controlled by select few, and sided with (((Soviet Bolsheviks))). Even Putin admits the Soviet Union was a Jewish invention, go on YouTube and type "Putin Jews."

Anonymous Fourteen Eightyeight June 02, 2017 1:16 PM  

Reading the comments its obvious people are buying the lies of past few generations on Germany in 1933. Germany DESTROYED France and UK. It was after (((them))) convinced FDR, a genetic cripple who literally had sex with his own cousin (like inbred Muslims) and fully infiltrated by communists (the vice president before Truman was a commie!) that USA set a plan of provoking Japan to attack them. This isn't conspiracy theory Alex Jones style, the newspapers of the time prove it. Watch the Greatest Story Never Told (you can also search for it online). Don't punch to the right folks! The blacks/Muslims/Jews are coming after you, and will wipe you out genetically. The least of your concerns should be National Socialism, which REQUIRES A HIGH IQ homogeneous population. Economics doesn't matter if you are surrounded by Haitians, you will always get disaster with low IQs. And if you let Jews run your culture and media, aka (((cultural Marxism))) you will always turn into a Sweden. You need a strong MAN to defend your high IQ race and your culture's interests. Vox isn't telling you that Germany was 50 YEARS more advance technologically than USA/Soviets, and after the war they stole all their tech and their scientists! Remember it was Germany vs UK/France/Soviets/USA/Australia/Canada. Never in history did such a small country have to fight the literal combined world. Be proud of your ancestors, never be ashamed. The Jews are never ashamed of their slave trade of blacks. The blacks are never ashamed of their genocide of their own and slave trade. Only whites, and this will be your downfall if you don't get past your guilt (which should be pride).

Blogger Grandpa Lampshade June 02, 2017 1:17 PM  

To add a little nuance here, I don't think anyone seriously wants to recreate exactly what the Nazis in Germany created. If nothing else the times and circumstances were very different than what people face now although I do believe one of the main ((driving forces)) behind much of our problems remains the same. I think the larger question is that people do realize on some level or another that the current system in place has failed and will have to be replaced by something else. Which brings to the next question of "Replaced by what?" I think we are going to have to come up with something that will have aspects of all sorts of different systems or to put it another way: we are going to have to come up with something new to try. Is recreating National Socialist Germany unrealistic? Of course it is but I also think "Returning to what the Founding Fathers created" is just as unrealistic. Returning to what the Founders set up, which ultimately led to where we are now is akin to a smoker with late stage lung cancer saying, "If I could just get back to where I was when I had that first cigarette..."

Blogger dc.sunsets June 02, 2017 1:21 PM  

Grayman, you can email me. Mine is a google id so just add the usual gmail suffix.

Blogger pyrrhus June 02, 2017 1:36 PM  

Adam Smith more or less summarized everything you needed for economic success....freedom of the people to structure their own economic affairs, within the moral laws of the State, and honest enforcement mechanisms for commercial transactions. Ordered liberty, in other words.

Blogger dc.sunsets June 02, 2017 1:45 PM  

Mises irrefutably destroyed the possibility of a socialist "economy" by demonstrating that resource allocation is impossible in the absence of factor prices.

The problem for economists is that price is not the sole determiner of Human Action. Social psychology is extremely prominent, hence why Keynes' "Paradox of Thrift" can be balanced by the "Paradox of Over-enabled Consumption."

Keynesians presumably worried about people "hoarding" purchasing power and precluding the flow of economic transactions but I'm unaware of any notion that making credit too available would result in capital consumption.

Even the Austrians seem to want to eliminate the Business Cycle, when to me, cyclicality is built into human social behavior. One could no more eliminate booms and busts than eliminate fear, greed, envy, honor, prudence, knavery or heroism.

The amplitude of our current boom, and its duration, are unprecedented. Only a confluence of fiat money, a secular bull market in debt, export of jobs and import of labor, and a social mood mania of historic proportion could have created such a perfect storm.

Blogger VD June 02, 2017 1:45 PM  

Vox is ridiculous to act like an SJW when facing the ultimate red pill. Go research the conditions of Germany before 1933.

You're both retarded and dishonest. National Socialist economics do not work. At all.

I think we are going to have to come up with something that will have aspects of all sorts of different systems or to put it another way: we are going to have to come up with something new to try.

That is true. A retarded and obviously dysfunctional nationalist socialist economic system is not something that should be tried.

I'd take an attempt to locate and dig up the burned bones of Hitler more seriously. It's seriously that stupid from an economics perspective.

Anonymous DirkH June 02, 2017 1:47 PM  

@107. Fourteen Eightyeight June 02, 2017 1:16 PM
"Reading the comments its obvious people are buying the lies of past few generations on Germany in 1933. Germany DESTROYED France and UK."

Not exactly. from 1914 on, we slaughtered an entire generation of UK and French men (and much of our own).

In 1939, we TOOK France. We didn't destroy it. The Blitzkrieg just rolled over it. Probably L'Oreal, the leader of the French industrialists, had a deal with Nazi Germany. They preferred our rule to the rule of French (KomIntern) socialism.

And, we didn't destroy the UK in WW2 either. A few V1's and V2's on London, Coventry, that's all.

As usual the UK suffered some shortages due to German U Boats.

"Never in history did such a small country have to fight the literal combined world."

Well the Axis, or Anti KomIntern Alliance, had 18 member countries. Italy, Finland, Rumania, of course Japan etc etc.

It's funny how the Fins never get insulted for having been Nazi allies. Nobody remembers and nobody cares.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 02, 2017 1:48 PM  

rumpole5 wrote:Excuse my ignorance, but was not Franco in Spain a National Socialist?
Franco himself was a Monarchist, but his power base was a coalition of Nationalists, Fascists, Falangists, etc. and there was no practical way to restore the monarchy while he lived.

RE Distributism, the central point of distributism is that ownership of productive capacity should be as common as possible.instead of the current system, which intentionally drives people into employment, the system should encourage independence.
As an example, the self-employment tax, a 15% penalty for the privilege of not having a regular job. The entire purpose is to drive people into W2 employment, where they and their employer can be more readily regulated. A distributist society would eliminate this immediately.

Anonymous Moonbear June 02, 2017 1:49 PM  

Ron Paul was right, but neo-liberals and their massive media empire clearly has no intention to let the people be free.
Any theory that includes central banks or fractional reserve funding is going to be a failure.

Blogger DeploraBard June 02, 2017 1:51 PM  

6306
Come on 'tards. If you gotta lick the windows, don't lick the broken ones.
Heh

Blogger S1AL June 02, 2017 1:56 PM  

Snidely, minor quibble: I believe you mean "as widespread" when you say "as common", which implies socialism at first glance.

Blogger Duke Norfolk June 02, 2017 1:56 PM  

Grayman wrote:the cycle isnt so different from the raging forest fire that renews the forest

One of my favorite metaphors for what's been going on thru this expanding credit cycle is the suppression of forest fires. It's just perfect. And we're being set up for the mother of all forest fires.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd June 02, 2017 1:58 PM  

RobertT wrote:We are thousands of years into this and no one has the answer so far.

I'd say we know many answers, but they are not politically palatable. Most of the answers boil down to ``Let people keep what they can make,'' and ``Make people figure out for themselves what to make and how to make it.'' These basic principles are compatible with any political/economic system that isn't absolutist - which means not politically acceptable.

Anonymous Fourteen Eightyeight June 02, 2017 2:03 PM  

@VD

VD "You're both retarded and dishonest. National Socialist economics do not work. At all."

Vox Day is punching to the right, Ad Hominem attacks, without viewing the German side of history. Probably never seen the Greatest Story Never Told. Notice how I'm on his website and support him as an alt-righter, but when it comes to a part of white history he has to go all SJW. Germany was not the aggressor. Watch Greatest Story Never Told, hear Germany's side from Germans. Hitler was literally the most loved leader in all of white history. You sound like total Mike Cernovich/Milo alt-liter.


@DirkH

You write so objectively. Go watch Sam Dickson's speech a few days ago at the American Renaissance annual gathering. He says exactly the problem that Vox and you have, white people are too objective and rational about their own race. Do you think Jews debate with themselves "oh no, it wasn't just whites that did slavery, we actually funded it for centuries, and many blacks in USA where owned by Jews?"? do you think Chinese care they killed 40 million of their own? no they put Mao's pics all over Beijing.

Don't let it come to the day you are living in a South Africa mirror to understand the following concept "NEVER PUNCH TO THE RIGHT." I didn't read/hear a single person attack Vox, but he goes on and on about retardation, and sounds like a black/SJW on college campuses going ape because one white stood up for himself.

Anonymous Dedicating Ruckus June 02, 2017 2:04 PM  

> As an example, the self-employment tax, a 15% penalty for the privilege of not having a regular job. The entire purpose is to drive people into W2 employment, where they and their employer can be more readily regulated. A distributist society would eliminate this immediately.

Doesn't the self-employment tax basically just duplicate the social security tax that's already withheld from a W-2 earner?

When I switched from 1099 to W-2 with my current employer, I don't believe my actual tax burden changed much, it just got accounted differently.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents June 02, 2017 2:05 PM  

National Socialism: another version of the Make Money Fast of the 1930's.

National Chain-Letterism. With New Jersey police uniforms.

Blogger JaimeInTexas June 02, 2017 2:09 PM  

@120. Fourteen Eightyeight June 02, 2017 2:03 PM

Just because Hitler was correct on a few causes of Germany's problems (for example, Hitler I am sure agreed with 2+2=4) it does not make him correct on all the rest. Still, Hitler and his type were and are monsters.

Blogger VD June 02, 2017 2:12 PM  

Vox Day is punching to the right, Ad Hominem attacks, without viewing the German side of history. Probably never seen the Greatest Story Never Told. Notice how I'm on his website and support him as an alt-righter, but when it comes to a part of white history he has to go all SJW. Germany was not the aggressor. Watch Greatest Story Never Told, hear Germany's side from Germans. Hitler was literally the most loved leader in all of white history. You sound like total Mike Cernovich/Milo alt-liter.

No, you fucking Alt-Retard, I'm doing nothing of the sort. You don't even know what an argumentum ad hominum is. If I said National Socialist economics are bad because you are a retard, THAT would be an ad hom attack. I am telling you, you utterly uneducated retard, that National Socialist economics are false. They don't produce stable economic growth.

I am not "punching right" when I point out the facts, any more than I am "punching left" when I observe that Keynesian economics or communist economics don't work either.

And you're right. I do write objectively. Because the truth is objective. The truth is, regardless of how you or any other morons feel about it. Signing up for National Socialist economics isn't going to save anyone, it will only destroy them faster. Who the fuck is stupdid enough to think that MORE debt-spending in a world awash in debt is going to improve ANYTHING?

And from whom do you intend to borrow? Did you ever think that one through, moron?

Blogger Cataline Sergius June 02, 2017 2:20 PM  

National Socialist Germany 6-year budget deficit to revenue, 1933-1939
62.9 percent


One of the causes of WWII that gets little or no attention was the need for Nazi Germany to loot other nations.

And I don't mean it was a desire, it was a NEED. His economy was circling the drain the and he knew it.

The only thing Hitler proved was just how far you can stretch things with complete wage and price controls.

Blogger S1AL June 02, 2017 2:23 PM  

"And from whom do you intend to borrow? Did you ever think that one through, moron?"

To be fair to the alt-retard, I'm sure "gas the Jews and seize their assets" is somewhere in these wet dreams of his.

Blogger JaimeInTexas June 02, 2017 2:26 PM  

@124. VD

Borrow from the good graces of Herr Fuhrer until the long knives come out and some find themselves to have fallen out of favor.

Anonymous Peter #0231 June 02, 2017 2:39 PM  

@125:

Exactly right. If Hitler hadn't invaded Poland in 1939, the Reich would have been bankrupted in 1940. He had run out of the banker's money and needed another revenue source.

Blogger tublecane June 02, 2017 2:46 PM  

I don't think Hitler is trustworthy on the issue. He wasn't personally interested in economics, nor very knowledgeable on the subject. He left that to others.

Which isn't to say that the others had a consistent program. But what working government does? They're all fairly ad hoc, and a regime like Hitler's, which was always rushing headlong into the great unknown, was especially so.

Which I guess makes Hitler peculiarly honest. National Socialism is a political party, not an economic theory. If Lenin, for instance, acted as though his programs were driven by economic theory, he was a liar. Because obviously he threw Marxism out the window the second he could.

Anonymous Fourteen Eightyeight June 02, 2017 2:48 PM  

wow you are so triggered and obviously act like a SJW "retard retard" "uneducated." Yeah let's listen to most educated people, that really helped white people in past 100 years...

I never advocated National Socialism economics in a mixed race, medium IQ society we live in now. We can easily practice mercantilism and take over the world instead of having China get wealthy (another Jewish project, Henry Kissinger saw how little Chinese regard human life, and they don't give a damn about environment or labor laws, and pushed his good slave Goy Nixon to open it up).

My main point, and you will understand this one day, be it now, or in 20 years when Muslim soldiers controlled by Jewish puppet masters come to your door and say "you white give me shit" is never be ashamed of your history, and your people. You haven't seen the "Greatest Story Never Told." You haven't heard the German side and made your mind. I can't convince you. However for anyone under 30, go watch it, and learn the glory of your people, before buying into the SJW (((anti-German))) version of history. If you are ashamed of your people, you will never have the inner strength to save your race and civilization. As good as Rabbi (teacher) VD can be, he hits a big dead end when it comes to the one European country in history that tried to escape fiat currency capitalism.

Good job Vox Day, the Germans were evil, and now look at the filth white people have to live with. You really think if Germany had won the war, we would have to deal with transexuality pushed on children? Would we have to deal with commercials with black men and white women? Would we be giving welfare to Mexicans while they send untaxed money to Mexico??? Would we have to deal with the degeneracy in society and art. Would London have a Muslim mayor and most popular newborn name be "Mohammad" if Germany had won? Would Paris be a zoo of garbage everywhere? You think South African whites would be facing death if Germany/USA/UK where not run by Jews like today?

Who is the true mental retard Vox Day? I agree I don't have your IQ or your education (just like I don't have the IQ nor education of Einstein/Ruth Ginsburg/Benjamin Netanyahu). You can go be rational, and discuss free trade and economic policy until you blue in face, while your people burn because the good guys lost in WW2. Go ahead folks hate on Germany, the country that literally bled genetically to give whites a chance to run their own countries.

The USA/France/UK didn't win the war, along with Germany, Europeans and whites lost as (((Capitalism))) and (((Communism))) destroyed white rule over themselves. Anyone under 30, if you get a chance watch "Greatest Story Never Told" on YouTube or search it online.

Anonymous Fourteen Eightyeight June 02, 2017 2:53 PM  

Germany didn't need nor was looting other nations. Germany was fighting a defensive war since day 1. Attack on Poland was to save German territory and German men, women, and children who were being raped and killed by Poland (under control of globalists at the time). German leadership couldn't stand by while their people where being tortured.

Go watch "Greatest Story Never Told" on YouTube or search for it online. Even Pat Buchanan, who is paleoconservative, said that Germany was not aggressor. That's why all the Jewish groups launched a jihad on him.

Before you take the side of Israel and SJW on history, watch the Greatest Story Never Told, and at least have an open mind of hearing the other side's version of events.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener June 02, 2017 2:55 PM  

While those levels of deficit spending are obviously unsustainable, there are circumstances in which extreme deficit makes sense or is even an absolute necessity. A nation facing the likely prospect of annihilation has a great incentive to invest heavily in its military and industry while disregarding the effect of debt on its future economic prospects.

And NSDAP leaders justifiably believed the Bolsheviks posed a grave and immediate danger to all of Europe.

Blogger tublecane June 02, 2017 2:58 PM  

@120-"Vox Day is punching to the right"

National Socialism isn't to the right of me, and I don't think to the right of Vox. Because the left is afraid of Nazis, and because Nazis are to the right of them, they pretend they're all the way to the right. Like, way over with feudalism. But I see no reason to go along with that. To the right of them can still be to the left of me.

They're in the same position as cuckservatives, relatively speaking. Between me and the left. When I punch them, I'm punching left. Their position relative to the extreme left is inconsequential, except insofar as I can use it against them.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 02, 2017 3:04 PM  

Gammas gonna gamma.
Anybody want to give an over/under on when it gets the v&hammer?

@117
Yeah I saw that after I posted, but i don't worry too much about what reflexive free marketeers and other morons who will intentionally misread what I write think about ... well, anything really.

Dedicating Ruckus wrote:Doesn't the self-employment tax basically just duplicate the social security tax that's already withheld from a W-2 earner?
Self-employment tax doubles FICA withholding.

Blogger Ingemar June 02, 2017 3:04 PM  

Grayman,

I'm also in life sciences, in a job site that's about to shut down. Could I give you a ring too? I know that will put me in competition with DC, but if he's the better candidate than me, more power to him.

Blogger VFM #7634 June 02, 2017 3:04 PM  

I really wasn't aware that Nazi Germany was engaging in massive deficit spending. I'm not totally surprised, and it would provide a rationale for Germany attempting to take over Europe.

But it's yet another example of how Keynes is a shortsighted midwit.

@131 Fourteen Eightyeight
I think it has become common knowledge that Poland "started it" rather than Germany. Even (((Harry Turtledove))) stated as much in his fictional magical rewrite of World War II, even going so far as to suggest that France was causing trouble as well.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 02, 2017 3:08 PM  

Noah B The Savage Gardener wrote:While those levels of deficit spending are obviously unsustainable, there are circumstances in which extreme deficit makes sense or is even an absolute necessity.
How about the KdF-Wagen scam. Get (working class White) people to contribute to a savings plan so they can buy a car. Then take the money and buy nice things for yourself. When the car is due, fob those (working class White) Germans off with "war emergency" and stories of how the money was used to protect them from the Russians.
It's NSDAP economic policy in a short lesson.

Blogger VFM #7634 June 02, 2017 3:08 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger tublecane June 02, 2017 3:08 PM  

@131-You could conquer the whole globe and still make the argument that it was in self-defense. What if someone, somewhere is plotting against you?

The U.S. quite often acts and justifies itself exactly as Germany did vis a vis Poland. And we don't even have the rationale of defending Greater America. Instead, we often do it for abstract humanitarian reasons. Someone somewhere is in danger, therefore we invade and "regime change" until we get our way. But of course it's aggression in both cases, no matter how the powers justify it in their own minds.

Just like it was aggression when the Soviets conquered half of Europe, even though they had 20 million fresh reasons to fear other people's aggression.

Blogger VFM #7634 June 02, 2017 3:09 PM  

Rather, the deficit spending would suggest a rationale for why Germany took over Poland instead of simply kicking Poland's ass, wrecking their army, and demanding concessions without actually annexing the country (like what Russia did to Georgia a few years ago).

Blogger tublecane June 02, 2017 3:13 PM  

@138-Germany didn't have freedom to demand concessions without annexation. In order to invade, they had to cut a deal with Uncle Joe, whereby the Soviets ate up half the country. Germany couldn't dictate to the Soviets, who were out to extend the communist revolution/restore the old Russian empire. So even if they wanted to restrict themselves to the imperiled ethnic German population...

Not that it's get wanted to restrict themselves.

Blogger VFM #7634 June 02, 2017 3:17 PM  

Germany didn't have freedom to demand concessions without annexation.

@141 tublecane
Could you expand on why Germany couldn't do a Russo-Georgian War on Poland? Heck, the Poles would have to worry about the Soviets getting them in the rear in any case. That alone might get them to play nice.

Anonymous Grayman June 02, 2017 3:18 PM  

135. Ingemar

Sure, how can I reach you.

Blogger Cataline Sergius June 02, 2017 3:21 PM  

I can hear my brain cells committing suicide one by one."

Blogger Cataline Sergius June 02, 2017 3:24 PM  

@134. Snidely Whiplash

Gammas gonna gamma.

Gamma my dying ass. This is purest Omega with a generous helping of malignant narcissism on the side.

Anonymous DirkH June 02, 2017 3:24 PM  

@129. tublecane June 02, 2017 2:46 PM
"If Lenin, for instance, acted as though his programs were driven by economic theory, he was a liar. Because obviously he threw Marxism out the window the second he could."

No. He stuck to it until it was no longer possible, and then enacted the NEP only to save his revolutionary regime, not because that was his goal. His hands were forced. After his death Stalin abandoned the NEP and went on with collectivation.

Blogger S1AL June 02, 2017 3:25 PM  

Why do the Nazi wannabes always think that "white people" are a single, cohesive ethnic group that wants to be ruled by ubermensch? Being white doesn't make me your kin or make me like you any better. Hell, my great grandfather was literally a German named Adolf, and he despised Hitler and the Nazis. Take your gutter trash propaganda back to the Old World where it belongs.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) June 02, 2017 3:25 PM  

GO WATCH THIS YOUTUBE VIDEO is literally the stupidest argument

Anonymous Cucky R. McCuck June 02, 2017 3:25 PM  

We're rejecting it for the useless defensive and defeatist bullshit that it has always been.

I say good sir! There are women and children on this board! Have you no decency? Have you no shame? Why I would rather die by my principles than win a war for the west through the use of...foul language like this!

What, dear sir, do you think the Judeo-Christ would have to say about your appalling tactics?

Blogger DeploraBard June 02, 2017 3:27 PM  

I think 1488 really wants Vox to watch the Greatest Story Never Told.

Re FICA taxes: amounts are same for wage earners and self employed. Earners employer pays half and self employed foot the whole bill

Blogger VD June 02, 2017 3:27 PM  

Germany didn't need nor was looting other nations.

You're not only retarded and ignorant, now you're lying.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener June 02, 2017 3:33 PM  

@142 The Polish state had only been recently created by the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. Prior to that, there hadn't been an independent Polish state since 1795. All that was Poland in 1939 was either German or Russian at the beginning of WW1.

Lenin had launched a failed invasion of Poland, in 1921 IIRC, so Germany was probably convinced that the Soviets had ambitions of regaining their lost territory (at a minimum). In addition to desiring to reclaim its own lost territory, Germany did not want to leave ethnic Germans to be ruled by Poles and Soviets.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer June 02, 2017 3:38 PM  

Even the Austrians seem to want to eliminate the Business Cycle, when to me, cyclicality is built into human social behavior. One could no more eliminate booms and busts than eliminate fear, greed, envy, honor, prudence, knavery or heroism.

This is a truism that the arrogant think they can outsmart. The scary part that gets ignored is the more you hold back the crash the worse the crash is when it happens. People are in awe of TPTB's ability to kick the can. The extreme downside to that is that every time they are successful the crash gets a little bit harder.

Anonymous fop June 02, 2017 3:40 PM  

"At least the trains ran on time" is the bestest argument.

Blogger tublecane June 02, 2017 3:42 PM  

@146-I didn't think the NEP was his goal. The primary goal was the survival of his regime. Were his hands really forced? He could have remained a doctrinaire communist and gone down in flames. Plenty of communists have.

I was being facetious with my "the second he could" statement, but I think it gets at a fundamental truth about economic theory versus political reality. You won't find many historic leaders as ruthless as Lenin, nor ones who were as big True Believers in their cause. But even he switched it up when reality intruded.

Anonymous fop June 02, 2017 3:48 PM  

"You really think if Germany had won the war, we would have to deal with transexuality pushed on children?"

Depends. Are any of them identical twins?

Anonymous DonReynolds June 02, 2017 3:49 PM  

In terms of economic thought, there are basically two different approaches.....English and German.

The German economics is entirely empirical, being taken from the old German Historical School. It is based on the collection of data and the analysis of that data. The modern subfield of Econometrics is based on the German thought. Statistics is the cornerstone of German economics and that well-known German mania for order and efficiency. German economics would find theory to be an unnecessary constraint, or pre-condition, so you will find little in the way of economic "theory" in German economics. This is exactly what Adolph was talking about when he said the Germans have no economic theory. They really do not. Certain outcomes are expected, because they have been observed to behave in exactly the same way in the past.

English economics is built on theory, a nice tidy structure, involving long chains of logic, rather than statistics. Investigations using theory may lead to generalizations, which can later become part of the body of theory, but the historical data is simply a side check or check figure to the theory. As Alfred Marshall once wrote....do the math to check the theory, then tear up the calculations and toss them away. The data itself is an aside, the real test is whether the theory meshes into the economic system of thought. English economics is a bit like a priesthood of scholars who have mastered the existing theory and very carefully add to that theory over time. Economic theory does not change much because human behavior does not change much. There may be important changes, such as Ricardo, the marginalist revolution, or even Keynesian economics, but the core theoretical elements are constant and immutable. This is economic theory, because it is never anything else. The English economic thought is more dependent on the proofs in Mathematical Economics, with its geometry and abstractions, than upon the examination of historic data sets with statistical analysis. This is economic theory.

So which economic thought is the most (overwhelmingly) dominant in modern US economic schools? The German approach has become dominant in my own lifetime, where before it was English. Do not take it too personal. The US economics still tries to teach elements of both....some English economic theory and a good dose of German econometrics to make them employable in government and industry.

Blogger tublecane June 02, 2017 3:52 PM  

@142-"Heck, the Poles would have to worry about the Soviets getting them in the rear in any case."

More importantly from Germany's perspective, Germany had to worry about the Soviets getting Poland in the rear. They were playing a long game, here, with the commies, whom Hitler with reason considered his greatest geopolitical threat.

"That alone might get them to play nice."

Theoretically that's possible. The Germans was winning a lot of territory through diplomacy, bluster, chicanery, and all manner of tricks at that time. But I don't think Poland, which was recklessly aggressive itself at the time, was quite in its right mind. And like I said above, Germany was playing a long game with Russia. Part of that game was to buddy up while it dealt with problems piecemeal.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener June 02, 2017 3:57 PM  

"But I don't think Poland, which was recklessly aggressive itself at the time, was quite in its right mind."

Yep. And Poland was emboldened because England and France were threatening Germany with war if it took any action against Poland.

Anonymous BBGKB June 02, 2017 4:11 PM  

"You really think if Germany had won the war, we would have to deal with transexuality pushed on children?"

Behold the gay white mans burden- Kipling for the current year

"I found myself admonishing white gay men, trying desperately to get them to understand that the responsibility of turning this ship around lies largely on their shoulders."
http://www.washingtonblade.com/2017/05/26/opinion-white-gay-men/

Blogger SteelPalm June 02, 2017 4:20 PM  

or engage in material imperialist war to acquire the resources to pay off their rapidly growing debts.

Bingo. As I noted on yesterday's post, it was an economy, such as it was, built for war, and little else. And they had to win that war to keep it from crumbling.

That people are defending an economy requiring its nation to engage in a total war that would kill millions of its own citizens even if they had won is mind-numbing.

Truly, an ideology no less (and possibly more) suicidal than communism.

Blogger tublecane June 02, 2017 4:26 PM  

@157-You're on to something. Hitler, despite having been a voracious intellectual consumer, was what I'm polite society they call "anti-intellectual." Which is to say he was a dilettante at odds with many if the ruling intellectual fashions of his time, or at odds with the ones he thought against his and his people's interests. For instance, "Jewish Science." Consequently, he was wont to lash out at Theory. At least I think that was one reason.

I'm not terribly familiar with the German Historical School, but it sounds similar to what was going on with so-called Analytic versus Continental philosophy at the time. We also have in English-speaking countries what's known as the "institutional" school of economic theory, which I think similarly abjures abstraction in favor of sociological thinking. The French Annales school of history was also a long this line.

I don't know if this is all up to the intellectual differences between England and the continent, nor how far such differences may be exaggerated. But it's easy to believe such apparent differences were in Hitler's mind.

Then again, I assume the Historical School and related movements would like to claim Marx as "one of them," which isn't the sort of company Hitler kept. But Marxism was always double-tracking (or multi-tracking) between what it fancied strict, dialectical thinking with history-bound social-evolutionary analysis.

Blogger SirHamster June 02, 2017 4:27 PM  

SteelPalm wrote:That people are defending an economy requiring its nation to engage in a total war that would kill millions of its own citizens even if they had won is mind-numbing.

But they have snappy uniforms!

A love of surface glory and a disdain for the dirty work of thinking it through.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) June 02, 2017 4:30 PM  

You're not only retarded and ignorant, now you're lying.

But you didn't even watch his YouTube video

Blogger Duke Norfolk June 02, 2017 4:36 PM  

Josh (the gayest thing here) wrote:GO WATCH THIS YOUTUBE VIDEO is literally the stupidest argument

No kidding. Especially when you repeat it like Rainman. Good grief.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Deplorable Cents June 02, 2017 4:48 PM  

VD
Anyone who advocates national socialism as an economic solution is either totally ignorant or literally retarded.

Or totally LARPing.

Blogger Lovekraft June 02, 2017 4:49 PM  

Sorry for long post, but thought I'd attempt to compile some of the policy ideas posted so far.

11 Whitecloak: "I'd prefer the old American System- high, protective tariffs on outside industry, low internal barriers and a relatively free market at home (coupled with muscular trust busting to keep businesses regional at most). De-scale, not add yet another lumbering bureaucracy."

36 Rumpole: "Some nations are composed of large numbers of lazy, disorganized, dishonest, or stupid people. This has to affect the economic system."

50 TZ: "The problem with a totally free market is that it also sets market prices for child prostitutes, slaves, and assassins."

62 dcsunsets: "a premise that there's an ideal, one-size-fits-all,-all-the-time framework if we can just discover it."

66 Abdul: "Now, this isn't to say that I disagree with the notions of distributism. I very much am in support of the expansion of the land-holding middle class. But I also recognize that distributism's other tenets inside stagnation and are contra each other."

and 79 Josh's post. Long one so look it up.

88 Fop: "Distributism might work well within a blockchain economy.

Might be a way to keep people honest, while setting non-arbitrary limits."

Had to stop there but these are general principles I gleaned quickly. We seem to be heading towards some general consensus, but really need someone with a strong overview to refine it.

Someone who puts things down like a Ben Franklin and can be taught to elementary school pupils.

Blogger Were-Puppy June 02, 2017 4:49 PM  

@94 Brick Hardslab
Why is no one addressing the elephant in the room? Moon bases and Antarctica colonies are not cheap. That's where all the money went.
---
+100

OT Bonus: This classic rock song about a german airplane I believe coined the term "heavy metal"

BOC - ME262
https://youtu.be/9280ALzFwcY

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener June 02, 2017 4:51 PM  

@137 At least the NSDAP used the wealth they plundered from their citizens to fight the enemy. Our government has been taxing us to pay hostile foreigners to resettle in our communities. Fiscal deficits are almost irrelevant compared to such insanity.

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer June 02, 2017 4:52 PM  

Germany didn't need nor was looting other nations.

Looted artwork is still being recovered.

http://www.lootedart.com/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/art-news/9889691/France-to-return-art-stolen-by-the-Nazis.html

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable June 02, 2017 4:52 PM  

So I'm guessing the term Alt-Retard is back with a vengeance?

Anonymous MIG June 02, 2017 4:53 PM  

@105 S1AL
"And employee-owned companies have been tried. A lot. They consistently fail for the same reason that socialism fails."

Can you elaborate, please?

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener June 02, 2017 4:55 PM  

But to the larger point, comparing NSDAP Germany to the contemporary US is sort of the nation-state version of Bumfights.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 02, 2017 5:07 PM  

Noah B The Savage Gardener wrote:At least the NSDAP used the wealth they plundered from their citizens to fight the enemy.Actually, they used it to enslave Slavs, converting entire factories in Germany, Poland and France to slave labor, and suppressing the wages of the working class German.

Anonymous DonReynolds June 02, 2017 5:07 PM  

@162 tublecane
You have done some reading.
The only contribution I know of by a Nazi era German economist was the Stackelberg solution to duopoly.....oligopoly, or even monopoly, being the defining characteristic of the Nazi economy. This was not by accident but deliberate, in fact, by German law at the time. All independent small businesses were merged into large conglomerates called industry associations to avoid the destructive waste of competition. Oligopoly was the scientific economic model that rationalized the German economy, before and during the war.

I was probably one of the few that ever bothered to teach the Stackelberg solution in class, it being slightly taboo because of the political association. But the Nazi advocates should not claim too much of the Stackelberg solution, since he published the paper in 1934.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper June 02, 2017 5:11 PM  

S1AL wrote:"All roads lead to distributism."

Distributism contains the same fundamental error as libertarianism: the belief that everyone is an erstwhile member of the white, Christian, self-motivated, middle class.


Its not been tried though unlike socialism and its variants so there is that

In the end, wealth will be redistributed, the only question is which method causes the least harm,

It seems to me since demography can be changed even by force if needed and that Christian values can be applied to the new social order (and note nearly everyone here is counting on a Christian revival in order for society to continue) that leaves only the issue of the poor.

Poor here being defined as lower IQ. poor impulse control that baring eugenic breakthroughs and genetic engineering will always be among us.

Taking you assertion at face value if the number of people with that mindset is below the threshold society can support than it should be an acceptable risk.

And to note, the reason wealth will be distributed is simple,every single human society ever does this whether by kings, by nigh mandatory church tithes, by the State , chieftains . Its always happens every time. People are tribal and loyalty beyond blood and even sometimes that isn't free .If the king/chief/state/corporation wants it, they have to pay for it > if they don't, whatever happens to them is their own fault

With automation making human labor more and more superfluous , the amount distributed will go up , 40% of the GDP is already state according to CATO and even a sudden 90% Whiteness won't change it that much,

And yes mass deportations will buy some time, they won't make replacing your teen with a kiosk go away nor will they stop automated trucks, drone delivery , Craigslist or any of the other things automation can do now and are gradually getting better at.

Its the little things like say Travelocity destroying jobs as travel planners and nothing as good replacing them or music or media downloads taking out a huge percentage of the middlemen

Its way more efficient but most jobs are middlemen and middlemen create demand for goods and labor

All that automation means poverty not prosperity if people have no way to buy goods

So yeah, you are going to have your wealth redistributed one way or another, Its pretty clear NDSAP doesn't work, Communism doesn't work , Latin American Socialism doesn't work , no Socialism works and the level of automation means Henry Fordism isn't working either

That leaves Social Democracy which works sort of, and Distributism which we haven't tried or else your society won't have anyone to buy the production and that means poverty and possibly instability.

Gotta pick one well unless someone knows one that works better long term.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener June 02, 2017 5:12 PM  

@174 You're neglecting the fact that the Slavs in power were communists on a murderous rampage.

Blogger S1AL June 02, 2017 5:19 PM  

@MIG -

To give a couple of examples, let's take a company with ten employees.

Now, who makes decisions for that company? The owners? No, there's no way you're going to make effective decisions like that by committee. So you're going to need someone to take an executive role.

Now, let's say that executive individual makes a decision that one of the employees thinks is biased against him. How do you resolve that situation without pissing off at least one owner? Best of luck.

What happens when someone leaves the company? How do you pay out for his stake in the company? Who makes hiring decisions for the replacement? How does that individual "buy in"?

How do you account for the situation where you have two owner-employees who each accuse the other of rule-breaking or negligence?

And then the most common issue: how do you deal with over- and under-achievers when you have co-ownership profit-sharing? If one guy is twice as productive as the average, is he only going to get paid 10% more? Same for someone who's a slacker?

Do you want to deal with every single issue like that with a committee of all the owners?

Hell no.

So in the end you wind up with the socialism problem: underachieving is incentivized and it eventually spirals into collapse. This has cropped up in the news several times with businesses that tried this model.

Now, that said, the profit-sharing model with scaling percentages is very much worth looking at. But it still requires executive decision-making, and it's usually going to be better for that to rest in an owner than the company as a whole*.


*Now ask: What does this say about publicly-held corporations, executive parachutes, and bankruptcy laws? Then compare it to privately-held companies.

Blogger S1AL June 02, 2017 5:26 PM  

"With automation making human labor more and more superfluous , the amount distributed will go up , 40% of the GDP is already state according to CATO and even a sudden 90% Whiteness won't change it that much."

People have been saying this for hundreds of years... in some places for thousands. It's still not true. The only time where it's come close to being true is right now, where taxes are used to subsidize the existence and procreation of those who will not work. Stop subsidizing that and people will suddenly find effort to once again be incentivized.

And let's be real - if it ever came to the point where the system was wholely stratified into the subsidized non-producers and the productive elite, it would collapse into war or extermination, thereby leading to effort by necessity. There's no point where there's a perpetual stagnation.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 02, 2017 5:40 PM  

S1AL wrote:So in the end you wind up with the socialism problem: underachieving is incentivized and it eventually spirals into collapse. This has cropped up in the news several times with businesses that tried this model.


Theoryis over-ridden by actual experience" The Basque co-operatives have been operating 60 years as employee-owned industrial plants, manufacturing centers, retail store chains, and business consultancies, and have collective annual revenues in excess of 4B Euro.
Whether that is possible under US law, with non-Basques or with Protestants is an open question, but don't claim that it can't work. It observably does work, quite well.

Blogger Ingemar June 02, 2017 5:47 PM  

Grayman wrote:135. Ingemar

Sure, how can I reach you.


I use my Google profile to comment on this site. Not sure if you are able to see my email that way or if you're a mod, but I'd rather not post my email here. Can I contact you?

Blogger S1AL June 02, 2017 5:59 PM  

@Snidely -

I'm going to have to read up on it some more, since the infogalactic page doesn't actually explain how ownership works or management decisions are made at all. My immediate response is to note that the number of non-owner workers has continually increased in most branches of the... federation of cooperatives? Yeah, gonna have to do a lot more reading on this.

I'm also not convinced that any definition of "owner" that doesn't involve profit-sharing is correct, and it doesn't look like this one does.

That said, I will concede that it's possible that this might work for larger organizations better than smaller due to the clique effect.

Anonymous Dismal Farmer June 02, 2017 6:23 PM  

whether you are correct would depend on what you mean by the undefined term national socialism. Yet once again you advance an egregiously false argument by comparing re-militarizing and post-Versailles 1993 German debt with US debt in 2010. This is preposterous to anyone who is of even extremely modest intelligence. Please stop aiming your "rhetoric" at idiots.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 02, 2017 6:28 PM  

It's an association of Co-operatives that formed a corporation in order to better manage the transition to the EU and the Euro.
The number of non-owner workers are due to the purchase of existing factories and stores. Some of the co-operatives commit to converting the ownership to the employees, and some merely look at them as investments. The corporation doesn't have an official policy on this.
Management of each co-operative is according to the bylaws of the individual organization, but generally involves hiring a manager for a set term. Managers have a pretty free hand, but are restricted, like any corporation, from certain actions without board approval.
An elected board determines major expenditures, sets policy, etc, just as in any US corporation. They also determine what percentage of profits is distributed back to employees and what part is re-invested.
Generally, ownership is earned at the rate of one share per year of FTE employment, and profits are distributed on a per-share basis. Shares are retained on retirement and even dismissal for cause. This constitutes a retirement plan in addition to the Spanish pension system.
Members commit to buying, where possible, from other corporation members, and also to giving their best price to other members.

Blogger Volksgemeinschaft June 02, 2017 6:51 PM  

Why did it take so many western countries to destroy National Socialism, if it was a awful system then the country would be weak and easily destroyed by France alone. I suspect it was evil as is Russia evil due to the christian nature of the country.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) June 02, 2017 7:06 PM  

whether you are correct would depend on what you mean by the undefined term national socialism.

You are completely fucking retarded.

Blogger Volksgemeinschaft June 02, 2017 7:15 PM  

Ha, Ha, when its all said and done the Germans still export more goods than any western country in the world.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper June 02, 2017 7:19 PM  

S1AL wrote:"With automation making human labor more and more superfluous , the amount distributed will go up , 40% of the GDP is already state according to CATO and even a sudden 90% Whiteness won't change it that much."

People have been saying this for hundreds of years... in some places for thousands. It's still not true. The only time where it's come close to being true is right now, where taxes are used to subsidize the existence and procreation of those who will not work. Stop subsidizing that and people will suddenly find effort to once again be incentivized.

And let's be real - if it ever came to the point where the system was wholely stratified into the subsidized non-producers and the productive elite, it would collapse into war or extermination, thereby leading to effort by necessity. There's no point where there's a perpetual stagnation.


Actually so long as the elite, stay elite and can lord over everyone else, its a pretty stable arrangement. Its not hard to get the poor reproduction rates low either, pay them not have kids. Its done. Anyway we did compensate for automation when we we took women and young people out of the full time work force , lowered the work week to 40 hours, nearly went to 30 , created various sorts of leave and created retirement.

Right now its nearly cheaper to use a kiosk than a kid at training wages, and the tech is going to get better.

Giovanni Dannato over at Forward Base B has an interesting article on post scarcity, we aren't there and won't fully arrive there but we have enough technlogy to destabilize the industrial area system even if we eliminate and reverse immigration

https://colonyofcommodus.wordpress.com/2017/06/02/much-us-dysfunction-comes-from-post-scarcity-denial/

My fave quote
If you have no plan or intention to give people a role in society with no stopgaps to gradually phase them out, you pretty much have to starve or shoot them all sooner or later. The “average is over” geniuses seem to think everything will always go smoothly since the recycled aps and websites they make have been doing well for the last decade or so. The way out of this dilemma, besides the ruthless culling of hundreds of millions is to accept the reality of where things are headed and try to deal with it constructively.

From my reply there.

You can't make a living selling ads if no one is buying and if no one is gaining from the current social order they have neither incentive nor obligation to maintain it. Its not as if these ideas aren’t out there, Boko Haram while utterly full of crap does this after a fashion and society rub by those lunatics would be more stable, better for humans being around and last far longer than one run by amoral techies for amoral techies. Granted the world much less Nigeria would be better off without them, its moot. The forces are in play and they’ll be back. if you want an extremist religious state like that or Pol Pot 2 by all means keep going in the direction you are going. Otherwise you had better get some system to opt everyone in lest the last thing people hear is “He knows the Devil machines! Get him!” as the crazies come with the tire shocks.

My guess is that long long term, if humanity survives this century with any tech intact, we’ll probably end up with a religious state and some localized variation that kind looks like Warhammer 40K

Religion, Hierarchy and a system of overlapping obligations or if you are too atomized, a basic income guarantee bith with negative immigration

Anonymous ADAM June 02, 2017 7:39 PM  

A good analysis of the Nazi economy (and its deficiencies) can be found in Adam Tooze's The Wages of Destruction.

Blogger S1AL June 02, 2017 7:58 PM  

@ A. B. Prosper -

Well, I didn't bother with the "send the excess people to colonize space" argument because I find that even more contingent than this theoretical time of total automation. The concerns over automation are overblown because humans often don't work up to their capacity. The average fast food place could be run by 7-8 employees if they were actually industrious and consistent (and I'm talking left hand of the bell curve). Currently it takes​ 4x that many. Automation will probably do a lot of net good by forcing people to perform at a higher level... IF we don't incentivize them to just drop it off the workforce. The Franklin Maxim of poverty still applies.

---

@Snidely -

I'll do some more reading on it still. Finding a lot of the information I want is difficult when half of the articles natter on about "economic justice". There are some key features that I want to examine more, particularly the federation aspect. That seems to be a necessary component.

That said, most employee-owned companies have failed spectacularly, partially because maximizing profits runs contra the goals of employee ownership, so that's something that really has to be taken into account... and is related to the federation aspect of the corporation.

But as I said, I'll read on it some more.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 02, 2017 8:13 PM  

That said, most employee-owned companies have failed spectacularly, partially because maximizing profits runs contra the goals of employee ownership, ...
They don't have to. That's the strength of the Mondragon system, the workers are maximizing their income, now and in the future, none of this economic justice BS. of course, if the place were full of Hindus or Dindus, it likely wouldn't work at all. Probably if it were full of Irish or Italians, for that matter.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper June 02, 2017 8:28 PM  

S1AL wrote:

Well, I didn't bother with the "send the excess people to colonize space" argument because I find that even more contingent than this theoretical time of total automation. The concerns over automation are overblown because humans often don't work up to their capacity. The average fast food place could be run by 7-8 employees if they were actually industrious and consistent (and I'm talking left hand of the bell curve). Currently it takes​ 4x that many. Automation will probably do a lot of net good by forcing people to perform at a higher level... IF we don't incentivize them to just drop it off the workforce. The Franklin Maxim of poverty still applies.



I do not disagree

It pays to always remember that inefficiency basically is your customer base. A maximally efficient economy would have a vast production surplus and be much less profitable.

We already know this from Japan, once it could not longer export its surplus production, its economy basically stopped growing and fell into depression.

As for space, probably never happen, No developed society has the surplus wealth that isn't gobbled up by social programs or the population to do it. Its a multi trillion dollar cash sink with no return in any human time frame.

I'd rather give the money to Dindus as at least some bodega owner or check cashing stand, liquor store or whatever would get the money

Caveat, the EM drive turns out to be the real deal otherwise its not going to happen basically ever.

Now more automation, enough to impact stability already has happened. Its ongoing

If you doubt me watch "How its made." and compare those low worker factories to say a 1955 assembly line . Than multiply by every industry.

Not pretty.

We'd all like less poor and low performance people but these days that's everyone less than one standard deviation above average. We can't do without 80% of the population

Blogger Volksgemeinschaft June 02, 2017 8:51 PM  

This Evil German Narrative is getting tiring for many, have you spent time in the country, driven one of there auto's, how awful was it?

Blogger Aeoli Pera June 02, 2017 9:34 PM  

For people who pride themselves on populism, y'all retards are terrible at rhetoric.

Blogger Volksgemeinschaft June 02, 2017 9:42 PM  

B) National socialism is not a viable economic practice.

Great, then why did NS terrify Western Elites.

Blogger wreckage June 02, 2017 9:54 PM  

@195 It didn't. It was quite popular, right up until Hitler decided to invade the entire world to pay off his debts. Even then, about half the Western World would have called it fair enough if he'd been a bit modest about it and only taken,say. half of Europe.

Blogger Volksgemeinschaft June 02, 2017 10:02 PM  

The Pogramed Tribe that rules over America declared War on Germany in 1933, if NS was as faulty as you claim then why did they feel the need to launch this attack. Why havent you published "200 Years Together" by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Blogger Volksgemeinschaft June 02, 2017 10:06 PM  

196. wreckage June 02, 2017 9:54 PM

@195 It didn't. It was quite popular, right up until Hitler decided to invade the entire world to pay off his debts. Even then, about half the Western World would have called it fair enough if he'd been a bit modest about it and only taken,say. half of Europe
-
-
Germans living in Eastern Europe were being persecuted, a response was inevitable.

Blogger S1AL June 02, 2017 10:37 PM  

"Germans living in Eastern Europe were being persecuted, a response was inevitable."

I'm sure you say the same thing about Mexicans in California.

Anonymous HF June 02, 2017 10:48 PM  

Germany totally did steal the Ark of the Covenant

Watch "Raiders of the Lost Ark"

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