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Friday, June 09, 2017

Catalonia to hold referendum

The referendum on Catalan independence will be held on October 1:
The leader of Spain's Catalonia region, where a separatist movement is in full swing, on Friday announced an independence referendum for October 1st, in what will exacerbate tensions with Madrid. Speaking in Barcelona, Carles Puigdemont said the question would be: "Do you want Catalonia to be an independent state in the form of a republic?"

Catalonia, a wealthy, 7.5-million-strong region with its own language and customs, has long demanded greater autonomy. Separatist politicians in the northeastern region have tried for years to win approval from Spain's central government for a vote like Scotland's 2014 referendum on independence from Britain, which resulted in a "no" vote.

And while Catalans are divided on the issue, with 48.5 percent against independence and 44.3 percent in favour according to the latest poll by the regional government, close to three-quarters support holding a referendum.

But Catalan authorities have repeatedly been thwarted in their attempts to hold such a vote, arguing it goes against the constitution and would threaten the unity of Spain.
I don't think "threatening the unity of Spain" is an effective argument to use against secessionists seeking independence, given that the destruction of unwanted unity is the essential point of declaring independence. To put this in perspective, Catalonia has about the same population as Switzerland, and, unlike Switzerland, actually has its own unitary language. It's observably more of a nation than the United States.

I tend to find myself somewhat bemused by the Spanish reaction, which combines contempt for the feckless leftism of the separatists and the future prospects of an independent republic with fear that the separatists will succeed. But if all of the negative observations are true - and there is little reason to believe that they aren't - then why not support the secessionist campaign? Why work so hard trying to stop it?

I know many, if not most, Americans would welcome Calexit or an independent New York City. Anyhow, regardless of how the Calatans vote, this is an additional indication that nothing will halt the continuing rise of nationalism around the world.

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100 Comments:

Blogger JACIII June 09, 2017 8:10 AM  

Like pulling on a thread of your sweater. Once it starts you find there wasn't much holding it together.


May turn out more like a ripcord.

Anonymous aegis-1080 June 09, 2017 8:24 AM  

Yup. Pretty much everybody is going to want their own seat at the big kids table at Brussels.

Spain makes perfect sense, Madrid can only produce the mediocre center-right Rajoy administration since everybody is (righteously) scared shitless than the hardcore Bolsheviks at PODEMOS crash the economy and everything else. Very similar to London in a way.

Anonymous Looking Glass June 09, 2017 8:25 AM  

Leftists can become surprisingly logical in economic affairs the instant they have to actually pay for it. This also explains, in our "print everything!" era, why the sucession movements have happened. No one has any economic interest in sticking around.

Anonymous Rocklea June 09, 2017 8:26 AM  

"May turn out more like a ripcord."

As long as you pack your chute properly, a Based jump.

Blogger James June 09, 2017 8:48 AM  

I'm still waiting for the first US State to attempt to leave. Even though the War of Northern Aggression was fought for economic control of the South, the history books show it was to preserve "the Union". Along with freeing blacks, which no one gave a shit about. I think we will find the land of the free will be less free than other countries if a State bails out because of nationalism.

Anonymous RedJack June 09, 2017 8:55 AM  

A family member stated the other day that the first Catholic country (county?) to leave the EU will be a huge event and possibly result in a Papal bull. I laughed at first, but he is right. The Pope has been trying to build up a New Rome, and now it is starting to unravel. Britain isn't a big deal, Spain would be.

Not sure if he is right, but I thought it interesting.

Blogger Vikki Wilson June 09, 2017 8:56 AM  

Well, in the end, we do not ask for autonomy, we declare it.

Anonymous Looking Glass June 09, 2017 9:02 AM  

@5 James

Under a Hillary Presidency, I predicted that Texas would have. Aside from being legally able to, it's been polling high-enough to be winnable in a campaign.


@6 RedJack

Sadly, given the current Pope, your family member would be correct.

Blogger Cail Corishev June 09, 2017 9:09 AM  

The current "pope" is one of the biggest cheerleaders for globalism and the migration invasion. If a Catholic nation leaves the EU, he will be first in line to condemn it. (That might be what RedJack meant would be in his Bull; I'm not sure.)

Blogger Johnny June 09, 2017 9:12 AM  

The most commonplace force that puts together large political entities is military force. Big armies beat little armies and so power consolidates. Now that the Europeans have renounced the use of force and actually stay with it to an extent, some degree of breakup should follow, and apparently is. If Spain were better run it would be regrettable, but it is not better run.

Anonymous RedJack June 09, 2017 9:17 AM  

@9 That is what my family member meant. He is Pro islam, pro climate change, and pro gay all because of what his priest tells him.

He also said my Crusader T shirt was insulting, and should be removed by force. My Hispanic buddy was wearing a Cross of St John the Moor Slayer, and got the same treatment.

I have about half my family that are Catholic. My wife left the church when the priest began pushing the homo agenda, and the Pope went nuts. I respect Catholics like John Wright, but they are a shirking minority, and honestly not following the Catechism. One of the core dogma's is that you HAVE to follow the Teaching Authority of the Church. Mr Wright and many others would be guilty of not doing that in many dioceses, for standing up for Christendom and not bowing before Islam.

Those faithful Catholics who are trying to follow the Faith of their forefathers are in a bad spot.

Blogger Azimus June 09, 2017 9:29 AM  

Catalonia to hold referendum

Did anyone else read "CALIFORNIA to hold referendum" for a split second and get just a little bit excited?

Anonymous Rocklea June 09, 2017 9:32 AM  

"Did anyone else read "CALIFORNIA to hold referendum" for a split second and get just a little bit excited?"

ditto

Blogger The Kurgan June 09, 2017 9:36 AM  

Redjack,
Stop talking in ignorance. Heretic Popes are no longer Popes. Happened some 40 times before. Bergoglio is not a pope. He is an apostate heretic. And no Catholic who's not deceived or utterly Churchian anyway views Bergoglio as Pope.

Anonymous JJ June 09, 2017 9:37 AM  

Interesting post

Anonymous Nobody Expects June 09, 2017 9:38 AM  

There will not be any referendum.
Writing from Catalonia, I doubt very much such a referendum would take place.

For starters, that mophead of regional president still has not signed anything that could led to his judicial prosecution, so no official, valid announcement.

Also, support for independence is quite low around here. And declining.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 09, 2017 9:44 AM  

RedJack wrote:One of the core dogma's is that you HAVE to follow the Teaching Authority of the Church. Mr Wright and many others would be guilty of not doing that in many dioceses, for standing up for Christendom and not bowing before Islam.
You obviously don't understand this AT ALL.
The Church has no authority to teach in many areas, and certainly no authority to teach anything contrary tot he deposit of Faith. That some priests, bishops and popes are corrupt and abuse their authority is not in any way a new circumstance.

Anonymous WinstonWebb June 09, 2017 9:45 AM  

Did anyone else read "CALIFORNIA to hold referendum" for a split second and get just a little bit excited?

You think La Raza is going to bother with a "referendum"?

Anonymous RedJack June 09, 2017 9:45 AM  

@14 By what authority is a pope called a heretic? You can't make that call. Honestly since Vatican I, I am not sure anyone can. That is the point Kurgan. My old aunt was raised under the "Pay, Pray, and Obey" church. Now she is being asked to pay and pray for things that were forbidden not that long ago. She has very few options to her.

By proclaiming the Pope a heretic, you have gone into schism at best.

Blogger ZhukovG June 09, 2017 9:49 AM  

@The Kurgan: What specific heresy has Pope Francis taught 'ex cathedra'? He says a lot of things I think are stupid, but as far as I know he has declared no heresy to be a doctrine, binding on The Church.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) June 09, 2017 10:02 AM  

Stop talking in ignorance. Heretic Popes are no longer Popes. Happened some 40 times before. Bergoglio is not a pope. He is an apostate heretic. And no Catholic who's not deceived or utterly Churchian anyway views Bergoglio as Pope.

Welcome to the reformation

Anonymous krymneth June 09, 2017 10:03 AM  

I initially read it as Castalia holding a referendum.

How does one obtain citizenship in Castalia?

Anonymous Jeff June 09, 2017 10:03 AM  

Catalonia in Spain is much like Quebec in Canada. If Catalonia goes, look for the Quebec separtists to rise again.

Blogger VD June 09, 2017 10:16 AM  

If Catalonia goes, look for the Quebec separtists to rise again.

I doubt it. Too many invaders resident who will never support them.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 June 09, 2017 10:21 AM  

James wrote:I'm still waiting for the first US State to attempt to leave. Even though the War of Northern Aggression was fought for economic control of the South, the history books show it was to preserve "the Union". Along with freeing blacks, which no one gave a shit about. I think we will find the land of the free will be less free than other countries if a State bails out because of nationalism.

The first state to leave will be the one that has the most Mexicans and very little concern for Federal dollars.

Blogger Cail Corishev June 09, 2017 10:24 AM  

The first state to leave will be the one that has the most Mexicans and very little concern for Federal dollars.

That seems like a contradiction in terms. More Mexicans = more need for federal largesse.

Blogger JaimeInTexas June 09, 2017 10:24 AM  

My family roots come from Barcelona and Mallorca, a long way back. Go Catalonia.

Blogger JaimeInTexas June 09, 2017 10:26 AM  

@3. Looking Glass June 09, 2017 8:25 AM

Secession not sucession.

succession

1
a : the order in which or the conditions under which one person after another succeeds to a property, dignity, title, or throneb : the right of a person or line to succeedc : the line having such a right

Anonymous Jeff June 09, 2017 10:27 AM  

VD - Point taken, although the invaders are mostly in the English part of Canada. Quebec is quite homogeneous outside of Montreal. A Quebec Charter of Values was floated a few years ago which would have banned hijabs, niqabs, turbans etc. Granted, it didn't pass but it did reflect an underlying nationalist sentiment in the region.

Anonymous DonReynolds June 09, 2017 10:27 AM  

Vox, I am a Southern Partisan, so I have never appreciated the virtues of a country that had to be held together at bayonet point.

Just how exactly can a government FORCE people to remain a part of the nation when they do not wish to be and still claim to be a free society?
Better still, how can that same government sign multiple international agreements and accords, including the Helsinki Accords and the UN Declaration of Human Rights, and compel (in the case of the former Confederacy) more than a third of their citizens to remain a part of the nation by force of arms, when their right to self-determination says they can leave?

On a historical note, the entire business of the Southern states being "re-admitted" to the Union is a long chain of contradictions. First, the claim that they could not leave the union, then to insist during four years of open warfare, that they never actually left the Union, then to insist they must be readmitted, but whites are not allowed to vote, but they must ratify the 13th and 14th amendments as pre-conditions for re-admission. So how the devil do non-states ratify constitutional amendments before they are states again? Had it not been for the extortion surrounding re-admission and military occupation for years after the civil war, the two amendments would never have been ratified without the Southern states.

Anonymous DonReynolds June 09, 2017 10:37 AM  

WinstonWebb wrote: Did anyone else read "CALIFORNIA to hold referendum" for a split second and get just a little bit excited?

You think La Raza is going to bother with a "referendum"?


The Mexican does not understand anything about power sharing. Either you are in charge or he is. There is no compromise, no halfway, no middle. If you are not in charge, he is.
You are totally correct. There will be no referendum on who controls California.

Blogger modsquad June 09, 2017 11:04 AM  

Another path towards globalism is to outright encourage the break up of nation states. The end goal isn't a one world government but to get back to the European style city-states of 13-14th Centuries.

Blogger JaimeInTexas June 09, 2017 11:11 AM  

@30. DonReynolds

To add fuel to your list of facts:

U.S. Constitution - Article 5

... and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.


That is the last clause in Article 5 and the reason that I mostly disagree when some people say that States have no rights. Sure, governments have powers/authorities (I know, I know, the Constitution is a dead letter) but, when the States were "readmitted" (if they never left ...?) and were in union for the ratification of the 13th amendment, then, these uSA tuned secessionist and kicked out the readmitted States, in violation of Article 5, so that the 14th amendment could be ratified. Then, there were the shenanigans as to certifying the loser in a Federal Election to get the votes for ratification of the 14th and the ignoring of the retraction of ratification by a State.

Blogger Weouro June 09, 2017 11:12 AM  

I support califexit. Let the state fall off the edge of the country politically instead of geologically like my 3rd grade teacher told me would happen.

Anonymous BadThink655321 June 09, 2017 11:36 AM  

"Let my people go..." Where have I heard that before?

Anonymous CarpeOro June 09, 2017 11:53 AM  

Jeff wrote:Catalonia in Spain is much like Quebec in Canada. If Catalonia goes, look for the Quebec separtists to rise again.

I'd be dubious on that. Last I looked, the PM was Trudeau. Highly unlikely they'd skip out on a leftist administration run by a Quebecois.

Anonymous David-093 June 09, 2017 11:58 AM  

A 50-50 split is bad news for Catalonian independence even if they do secede. They might face their own counter-secession to break away from Catalonia to stay united with Spain, which would be an interesting development.

As with all secessionist movements, the only thing that truly matters is whether or not you can do it.

Anonymous gxg June 09, 2017 12:09 PM  

Did anyone else read "CALIFORNIA to hold referendum" for a split second and get just a little bit excited?

Yup.

Anonymous Gen. Kong June 09, 2017 12:09 PM  

So the fake nationalists of Catalonia want direct access to the fake legislature in Brussels (Supreme Soviet of EUSSR) to suck the teet for fake money created from cow farts by Banksteins. Even so, the fake patriots in Spain don't like this because it means they will get a lesser share of the cow-fart money. Does that serve as a summary?

Blogger Doom June 09, 2017 12:11 PM  

The only way I would support independence for Cali and NYC is so that we could go to war with them and restructure the whole ball of wax. Toss in Illinois and a few others while at it. Spain and whatzit? My guess is the polls are made to be wrong, and everyone knows it. If they let them play, they would separate. Though I doubt if Spain, if they allowed it, would be able to take it back.

What is good for us, isn't good for others. Only if the bankers decided they would make more than they would lose in taking it would it be reabsorbed. Well, and they would have to create a provocation. We wouldn't have to work hard at that. Cali or NYC would do something stupid, and quickly. Like not allow people out, or try to tax outside of their areas, or who knows what else.

Anonymous Yann June 09, 2017 12:16 PM  

Writing from Catalonia [...] Also, support for independence is quite low around here. And declining.

Fake.

Support for independence in Catalonia is higher than 50% (and even higher if we ask Catalan people), and it has been rising last years.

Anonymous BBGKB June 09, 2017 12:18 PM  

I'm still waiting for the first US State to attempt to leave.

North CA is willing to split off and assume a per capita portion of the states debt, while Silicon Valley wants to break up into 6 states with none assuming debt.

Blogger Sam Spade June 09, 2017 12:26 PM  

I'm from Madrid and I support if they want to go out. And like me lots of people who are tired of this farce.

The only ones who don't want to let them make the referendum are the cuckservatives in power (Partido Popular), because they need the separatist enemy to justify their fragile existence.

I hope they made the referendum so the corrupt catalonian politicians stop whining, lying and playing the victim.

But like I said, Partido Popular won't allow it because of "muh legality" and "unity of Spain".

Anonymous Gen. Kong June 09, 2017 12:28 PM  

Catalonians who support independence from Spain but want to remain part of the EUSSR are not actually supporting idependence, just fake independence. To be genuinely independent, Catalonia would need to exit the UN, EUSSR, NATO and Spain - plus all the other globalist treaties. Like the Scottish "nationalists", they want to remain in everything except the former nation-state (Spain in their case).

Anonymous Gen. Kong June 09, 2017 12:39 PM  

@30 Don R.
You're still ghost-dancing as if these laws, treaties, etc, mean anything apart from what the ruling oligarchs say they mean. If the Banksters, Saudi Oil, Soros, et al say the treaties allow for Spain to do a Pol-Pot/Kim-Jong Crazy on all Catalonians to repopulate with Musloids and dindus, it will be unopposed. The ANC regime in SA is busy exterminating whites there and none of these pompous SJW "human rights" types say a world. As with everything else in the Fake Banana Empire, all the high-fellatin' talk of human rights, etc. only apply in one direction. In short, it's fake. We live in the age of fake. As more wake up to this, the Alt-right will grow.

Anonymous Jeff June 09, 2017 12:51 PM  

@3I'd be dubious on that. Last I looked, the PM was Trudeau. Highly unlikely they'd skip out on a leftist administration run by a Quebecois.

They tried to skip out on Trudeau Senior! Separatist regions tend dislike Leftist administrations, i.e. central govt control. Right wing admins that defer power to the regions/states/provinces are preferable.

But you are correct that money talks, and leftist govts like spending money. Bribes have kept Quebec in tow in the past, and may continue to do so.

Blogger Matthew Taylor June 09, 2017 1:10 PM  

@30 Don R.
As with everything else in the Fake Banana Empire, all the high-fellatin' talk of human rights, etc. only apply in one direction.

High-fellatin'

Heh heh heh!
I'm stealing that one.

Anonymous CaliforniaBeGone June 09, 2017 2:06 PM  

California's departure would be the best thing ever to happen to this country, so much so that it would even be worth just GIVING California to Mexico to achieve it. I could see a mutually beneficial termporary alliance between the alt-right and La Raza types on this issue.

Blogger dc.sunsets June 09, 2017 2:16 PM  

Here's hoping for Chiraq exit. To Mars. Put all of Chicago onto a rocket. PLEASE.

Blogger pnq8787 June 09, 2017 2:20 PM  

@9 It is interesting to note that the previous pope is not dead. Also of note is that there was a prophecy on the number of popes made in 1595 which just happens to end with Benedict XVI (Joseph Ratzinger). Well, I don't know if the prophecy is true, but they couldn't have prophecied a better pope to end with to make us believe it.

Blogger Antonio From Spain June 09, 2017 2:20 PM  

Vox, you say “But if all of the negative observations are true - and there is little reason to believe that they aren't - then why not support the secessionist campaign?” Because, as I’ve explained before, this is not at all about independence. The present situation in Catalonia has very much to do with the bursting of the real estate bubble and its connections to illegal funding of political parties in Spain.

Pundits everywhere made the typical mistake of explaining the real estate bubble in Spain by copy-pasting the explanations of what happened in the US. And there were similarities, indeed. But the crucial difference was that the debt fell mostly on the shoulders of real estate developers, not households. And because of how municipalities are funded, developers have been the providers of illegal funds for political parties. When the bubble burst the humongous cake of illegal funds went puff and all the rats wanted to jump ship. The shitstorm shockwave devastated the developers first and then the “cajas” regional saving banks; and that’s just like detonating The Bomb inside the naughty vaults of regional politics (nationwide parties verily included). Regions with potent tourism and localized politics are going through cataclysmic court dramas. And now some of the affected parties are trying to use their shrinking pull as leverage to avoid the fallout, such as crippling debt and jailtime. Independence would solve nothing of this mess because the corruption nets grew so much that they extend now even beyond Spain’s borders.

And that’s not even getting into the fiasco of the massive importation of Muslims by the Catalan regional government in the 90s; and with the stew that is bubbling up in Alhucemas...

You also say “Why work so hard trying to stop it?” Who is working hard to stop it? And how are they doing it, exactly? The regional government of Catalonia has been ignoring many laws for decades with the connivance of the Spanish government. Madrid’s attitude has been “dontancredismo”: do nothing.

Also, "threatening the unity of Spain" is not the argument used against the referendum. It’s its blatant illegality; which the independentists need in order to make it fail. https://www.dolcacatalunya.com/wp-content/uploads/salto-puigdemont.jpg

Since the “procés sobiranista” began, the coalition party that launched it (CiU) has split in two and then gone through a refoundation, and is now sinking. By the way, the lawyer who defended the Spanish royal princess in the recent corruption scandal is a historic member of this party. The CUP—which was created as a single-issue party for independence when it became apparent that neither ERC nor CiU could lead it—is against the October referendum.

By the way, not that it really matters much but since you mention it… You call it a “unitary language” but more than half of the Catalan population does not use the Catalan language as their main language, despite the enormous resources that the regional government has dedicated to the “immersió lingüística”. In the late 90s, talking with high-ranking executives of the Catalan 6-channel public TV conglomerate they lamented “how are we going to build a nation if our best anchors prefer to live and work in Madrid and our kids prefer to watch Japanese cartoons in Spanish?”

The Catalanist left and the Spanish far right in the early 80s—represented respectively by Tarradellas and Blas Piñar—warned us about all this. But who remembers the memory-holed?

As I mentioned before, I wouldn’t be surprised if they all had already agreed to a new Spanish constitution. They’ll come up with some newspeak term such as Maragall’s “asymmetrical federalism,” which is pretty much what we already have, but hey, we changed the tag on the bottle, it’s a brand-new formula!

OT: Vox, I emailed you about a writer in Spain who talked about SJWAL in an interview which aired on national TV. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ct__C5pivCI

Blogger pnq8787 June 09, 2017 2:21 PM  

https://infogalactic.com/info/Prophecy_of_the_Popes

Anonymous Homesteader June 09, 2017 2:32 PM  

And Jefferson would immediately secede from California. We have NOTHING in common with them.

Blogger Antonio From Spain June 09, 2017 2:36 PM  

About the Popes, Jordi Pujol, the man who single-handedly lead and shaped Catalanism since the early 80s bitterly despised pope John Paul II who did not support Catalanism. Marta, Pujol's wife, famously lamented, "this people do not understand us."

Much is changing in Spanish Catholicism nowadays towards a revival of millennium-old tradition, such as the Hispanic Rite to avoid the perils that came with the debasement of the Roman Rite. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0bhbddzqEg

Blogger Nobody in Particular June 09, 2017 2:59 PM  

I find the Spanish reaction perfectly understandable and Vox Day's reaction also understandable, but wrong. An independent Catalan government could do a lot of noxious things to provoke the Spanish, other Europeans, and every civilized nation on the face of the planet.
For example, it could close and demolish every church and cathedral in Catalunya. It could nationalize the possessions of every non-national. It could allow a Russian, Chinese, Iranian, or North Korean military base. One thing it will definitely do is allow (or at least close its eyes to) unfettered Muslim immigration, like the left-wing regional government of Berlin is doing.
Even short of this, there are a hundred things an independent Catalan government can and will do to spite its neighbors, especially Spain.
At some point, Spain would still be compelled by such provocations to try to reconquer Catalunya, a task that will have been made harder and chancier by the importation of weapons and paramilitary training of the most fanatical partisans of secession. It may not be any easier than on previous occasions when they had to do it, e.g. the Spanish civil wars of nineteenth and twentieth centuries.
Why should the Spanish government or Spanish people welcome such evil? Only a twisted mind, which sees good as evil and evil as good, would.
Further hint: it is a mind which sees all force as fundamentally illegitimate --- due to misguided, half-remembered, and half-digested Libertarian nonviolence precepts --- ever since Lincoln used it to preserve the union, sending all Southerners into a funk from which they haven't recovered to this day. It is a mind that sees everything from an American perspective, for which the War of Independence is the foundational act and opponents are traitors avant la lettre to a nation that doesn't even exist. It is a mind that doesn't understand the organicity of European nations, seeing each European county --- which Catalunya is: a county --- as the equivalent of an American "state". It is a mind that rejoices in destruction and division for their own sake.
Of course, this invites the question --- why give autonomy to Catalunya to begin with? Surely the Spanish must be regretting this decision now, which was taken by Socialists, probably deliberately to weaken the central government.
There are two possibilities: either Catalunya is part of the Spanish nation (and has been so at least since the War of Spanish Succession, if not since Ferdinand and Isabella); or Catalunya is part of the Spanish Empire, which is kept together by force, in which case force will again be used to keep it so.
tl;dr: The Spanish would be stupider than uninformed foreigners to welcome Catalan independence. Americans who truly welcome the secession of California (i.e. beyond a merely rhetorical stance) might be stupid too, but the completely different circumstances make it harder to be certain.

Blogger Ta Or June 09, 2017 3:23 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger James June 09, 2017 3:28 PM  

BBGKB wrote:I'm still waiting for the first US State to attempt to leave.

North CA is willing to split off and assume a per capita portion of the states debt, while Silicon Valley wants to break up into 6 states with none assuming debt.


That's not really secession. That is just joining the federal government as a different entity than California. But, that would be great too, as the more conservative parts of California would not have their votes thrown in with the entire electoral vote of California going to the Demonicrat party.

Blogger Antonio From Spain June 09, 2017 3:50 PM  

55. "the organicity of European nations" This!

"Of course, this invites the question --- why give autonomy to Catalunya to begin with? Surely the Spanish must be regretting this decision now, which was taken by Socialists, probably deliberately to weaken the central government."

It was not a Spanish decision. Just as letting US-supported Muslims invade Spanish territory in 1975 was not a Spanish decision.

Like I said, even the left-wing Catalanist Tarradellas said in 1983 that the way autonomy had been granted in 1979 would lead to a disaster.

Spain completely lost its political sovereignty in 1973, two years before Francisco Franco died. Then, three political parties were set up from scratch with funds from the West Germany. Every time Spain has tried to reclaim its sovereignty there has been blood. The shining city upon a hill is a harsh mistress.

Actual Catalanism was only upheld by the Carlistas, whose anthem had Basque lyrics. And I'm seeing a comeback of the Burgundy saltire—that's where I see Vox's pertinent prediction about a nationalist future.

Blogger Chent June 09, 2017 4:00 PM  

Hi, Antonio. I am Spanish too. In fact, Catalan is my mother tongue.

You have done a good job explaining the current situation. But I am intrigued by your sentence:

"Spain completely lost its political sovereignty in 1973, two years before Francisco Franco died. "

Do you have more information about that? I'd like to know.

Blogger Chent June 09, 2017 4:07 PM  

@Josh

Stop talking in ignorance. Heretic Popes are no longer Popes. Happened

some 40 times before. Bergoglio is not a pope. He is an apostate heretic. And no Catholic who's not deceived or utterly Churchian anyway views Bergoglio as Pope.

Welcome to the reformation

Josh, saying "Bergoglio is not a real Pope" (which I don't agree) is not the same as saying "There must be no Popes at all".

Anonymous NobodyExpects June 09, 2017 4:09 PM  

1973 was the year of Carrero Blanco assassination, quite near the USA Embassy in Madrid.

Some similarities with the Diem assassination of 1963.

To think that Spain was by then very close to become a nuclear power...

Blogger Sam Spade June 09, 2017 4:10 PM  

@51 "https://www.dolcacatalunya.com/wp-content/uploads/salto-puigdemont.jpg"

Haha, nice one. I often think that Puigdemont, Mas and company are bluffing. Let's call the bet.

Blogger Chent June 09, 2017 4:16 PM  

@Sam.

Yes, they are bluffing. Each year is "this is the last year before independence".

They threaten, threaten, threaten. They make statements and menace and scream and BS everyday.

Meanwhile, they get advantages for the Barcelona harbor from the Spanish government, which does not makes sense if you are going to be independent and have all the authority over this harbor.

Blogger Antonio From Spain June 09, 2017 4:44 PM  

59. 61. Gràcies, Chent. Ja vaig començar a tractar aquest tema aqui fa dos anys: http://voxday.blogspot.com.es/2015/10/mailvox-catalonian-independence.html

Exactly, I was referring to Carrero Blanco's murder. He wanted to keep Spain out of NATO (which protects UK's Gibraltar but neither Ceuta, Melilla, nor the Canaries). He also wanted to develop the atom bomb. He wanted to maintain Spain's neutrality.

There is a line connecting Carrero Blanco-23F-11M.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sLYM0kp1FQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujhMj7dixL4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gRiecZAWCI

From Blas Piñar let's also remember "Hipócritas" from 1962.

http://hemeroteca.abc.es/nav/Navigate.exe/hemeroteca/madrid/abc/1962/01/19/003.html

Blogger DrAndroSF June 09, 2017 5:28 PM  

40 times? References please.

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar June 09, 2017 5:29 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar June 09, 2017 5:31 PM  

Vox, I find your position on Catalonia as bemusing as you find the reactions of some Spaniards such as me. Let me suggest that maybe you do not know all the facts.

The "conflict" between Spanish nationalism and Catalan nationalism is living proof that the alt-right tennet of "supporting all nationalisms" is as impossible as drawing a round square.

Your use of the concepts "Spanish" and "Catalan" as being on the same level draws directly from the ideological springs of Catalan nationalism. The Spanish claim on Catalonia is not that it's not Catalan, but that it's a part of the Spanish identity, meaning that Catalans are Spanish and the Catalan language is a Spanish one.

Catalan nationalism isn't some "organic" phenomenon in Catalonia. The regional government there has used its control of the regional education system and of regional media to spread the tennets of Catalan nationalism, to a point where its cultural hegemony is total and undisputed. Catalan nationalism is not an anti-establishment struggle. It has been fattened on a diet of dozens of millions of euros of tax-payer's money over three decades now (that's almost 2 generations). It is a hell of a profitable business there. Moreover, you cannot prosper as a public figure in Catalonia if you do not adhere to the mainstream discourse.

The pan-European phenomenon of demoralization, of self-hatred, of hatred of one's identity and one's flag, of hatred of one's history, which you can observe in the UK, in Germany, in Sweden or in Spain, has curiously NOT affected Catalan nationalism. Ask yourself, why would this be? Food for thought! On one side, we have a perfectly orchestrated effort to dismantle the Spanish identity (or the French, or the English) from all fronts; on the other, we see Catalan nationalism not only tolerated, but encouraged, celebrated, smiled-upon and funded as a family-friendly phenomenon. How? Why?

I will go further. Why have secessionist organizations in Catalonia received plush funds from organizations linked to Soros?

Does the destruction of the Spanish nation, one of the oldest and most stable in Europe, lead to a stronger or weaker Europe?

Let us remember the well-known Nazi maps of Europe, where one big, strong, united German Reich was surrounded by a swarm of small ethnic nationettes which of course could only but follow Germany's lead.

A European Union made up of weakened, fractured nations incapable of resisting the whims of the Elites. And this, apparently, should be celebrated by the Alt-Right.

Blogger Antonio From Spain June 09, 2017 5:35 PM  

67. Alvin, Vox is aware of these things. He kindly posted an email I sent him about it in 2015.

http://voxday.blogspot.com.es/2015/10/mailvox-catalonian-independence.html

Anonymous Anonymous June 09, 2017 5:46 PM  

The Catalonians are NOT "nationalists". I repeat, THEY ARE NOT NATIONALISTS. They are essentially anti-Spanish chauvinists.

No real European nationalists would welcome non-whites into their country. Catalonian nationalists are pro-immigration and pro-refugees (as long as they are not Spanish, that is).

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 09, 2017 6:09 PM  

Alvin von Diaspar wrote:Vox, I find your position on Catalonia as bemusing as you find the reactions of some Spaniards such as me. Let me suggest that maybe you do not know all the facts.
No, he knows the facts, he just interprets them differently than you.
You are defending the rump of the Spanish Empire, the part that was created due to the inheritance laws of the Bourbons and the Aragonese. You are demanding that people who do not identify as Spanish must identify as Spanish, because, well, why really? They don't call themselves Spanish, in fact, you don't even call them Spanish, but you won them fair and square 600 years ago and by God, you're not going to let them go now.
Defend your empire all you want, What you say, what I say, will make no difference. If the Catalans are determined to take their independence, only military force will stop them.

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar June 09, 2017 6:21 PM  

To Snidely Whiplash:

Vox is an outsider. He's read some things, but still, he's not surrounded by the Spanish political reality 24/7.

Many Catalans already identify as Spanish. Actually, the polls reveal time and again that sharing the Spanish and Catalan identities is the most common case in Catalonia. A minority of Catalans identify exclusively as Catalan.

And by the way, I've always called Catalans Spanish, just as I call Asturians, Castillians or Andalusians Spanish. ;)

Blogger Antonio From Spain June 09, 2017 6:25 PM  

70. "people who do not identify as Spanish must identify as Spanish, because, well, why really?"

You are wrong.

For decades, poll after poll, has shown fairly similar results: 30% feel more Spanish than Catalan, 30% more Catalan than Spanish, 40% just the same. And in recent years the "more Catalan than Spanish" has actually been shrinking.

The very pro-Catalanists Vanguardia reports:
http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20170120/413527100693/ceo-catalanes-espanoles.html

Blogger Chent June 09, 2017 6:39 PM  

@Antonio.

Gracias. I have to check this information.

@Snidely Whiplash

As a young, I also believed these lies. I was pro independence and fiercely so. But Catalonia was never subjected to an empire. These are simply lies.

Ramon Berenguer IV, count of Barcelona, married Queen Petronilla of Aragon in 1150. Only in 1154 the current territory of Catalonia was conquered from the Moors. So a new country was founded: the Crown of Aragon. In 1469, the King of this country (Ferdinand) married the Queen of Castille (Isabella), creating the Kingdom of Spain.

Catalonia was never independent. NEVER. Before the creation of the Crown of Aragon, there were a handful of counties in the current territory of Catalonia. Not a political unity. And before this, the Spanish Mark (which is today the North of Catalonia) was part of the Frankish Empire.

All that thing about an empire conquering and repressing a country is only a delusion. Catalonia was never a country.

You can tell me: but now we want to be independent. Fair enough. But even after thirty years of brainwashing by the Catalan establishment, only half of the population is pro independence, even if the last years have been a blitz of propaganda in TV, radio, schools, etc.

"If the Catalans are determined to take their independence, only military force will stop them."

I agree with you in this. They are not determined. If they were determined, they would have rejected Spanish legality some years ago. They are only bluffing and doing antics (Now the row for the independence, now the dance for the independence).

Massa rauxa i molt poc seny. Només feu el ridícul amb les vostres pallassades.

Blogger Antonio From Spain June 09, 2017 6:44 PM  

Rauxa, exactly.

When even Pilar Rahola says that the procés is pathetic and when the CUP is against the referendum...

"Ni som ni serem", as Xavier Roig said. https://www.casadellibro.com/libro-ni-som-ni-serem/9788495616180/821291

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 09, 2017 7:05 PM  

Chent wrote:All that thing about an empire conquering and repressing a country is only a delusion. Catalonia was never a country.
Nor was Ireland a country by the current understanding before the Norman Conquest. That does not mean that they were not a nation.Vasconia has never been a country by the current Westphalian definition. That does not mean the Basques are not a nation.

Blogger Ransom Smith June 09, 2017 7:05 PM  

The Spaniards commenting should be aware how many Southerners read/comment here.

And as general rule we get testy when it comes to secessionist movements. Having been long denied ours.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 09, 2017 7:17 PM  

And in fact, most of the arguments made by the Spaniads could be claimed about Southron independence.

Blogger Chent June 09, 2017 7:27 PM  

@Snidely

"Nor was Ireland a country by the current understanding before the Norman Conquest. That does not mean that they were not a nation. Vasconia has never been a country by the current Westphalian definition. That does not mean the Basques are not a nation."

So you agree with me. Catalonia was never a country. It was never conquered by Spain. It has always been part of a country. There was no "country conquered by another country and oppressed" Thank you for being clear.

A nation? You mean this silly concept of nationalists that mean "a country without a country"? Why the Basque country is a nation? Because it has a different language? Many regions of Europe have different languages. India has 6000 languages. Besides, most Basque people do not speak this language: they speak Spanish.

Because they have a different story? Most regions in Europe have a different story than others in their same country.

"Nation" is a code word by "we want to be a new country and we don't have a history that justifies that so we will make up that we weren't a country but a nation". A piece of propaganda.

Blogger Ransom Smith June 09, 2017 7:39 PM  

"we want to be a new country and we don't have a history that justifies that so we will make up that we weren't a country but a nation"

Kingdom of Bavaria rang. It wants its centuries of sovereignty back.

And Austria for that matter. As by your definition Austria is a fictitious nation. Having been created from Bavaria by Fredrick Barbarossa to combat powerful families.

Blogger Thucydides June 09, 2017 7:41 PM  

About as crazy as Canada's obsession with keeping Quebec in confederation. While Quebec has the potential to be the wealthiest province in Canada, decades of socialist pandering and an addiction to getting "Freestuff" by blackmailing other Canadians has placed it on the bottom of the heap.

Even better, if you looked at the Provincial or Federal ridings which voted for separation, you would find a corridor on the northern bank of the St Lawrence river corresponding roughly to "New France" in the 1700's.

If you had taken all that wasted energy and wealth taken to bribe Quebec and invested it ion Canada, the nation would be in a far stronger position today. Spain should learn from Canada and just kick them out the door. Put that time and energy into more productive pursuits.

Blogger Sam Spade June 09, 2017 7:53 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous DonReynolds June 09, 2017 7:53 PM  

@42 BBGKB
"North CA is willing to split off and assume a per capita portion of the states debt, while Silicon Valley wants to break up into 6 states with none assuming debt."

The Constitution says that NO state can be created from an existing state, without the approval of the state legislature. For that reason, I expect nothing to come of the proposed new state of Jefferson....the California Legislature has no reason to approve the loss of such valuable real estate and wealthy taxable citizens.

That is the reason why the state of West Virginia is unconstitutional. The Virginia Legislature never agreed to create a new state. Combine that fact with the official Federal position that no state had the right to leave the Union and all remained states during the civil war.

Missouri is another interesting example from the civil war era. The historic state government of Missouri was ignored by Lincoln when he recognized a new pro-Union state government created out of thin air. Union troops were rushed to the state to drive out the historic state government, which fled to Texas for the duration of the war. We might see this hat-trick again. Imagine if Donald Trump decided to recognize the new state government of Jefferson as the lawful and legitimate state government of ALL of California.

According to the Lincoln precedent, no action is required by Congress. The (current) president could do it with his own signature.

Blogger Sam Spade June 09, 2017 7:55 PM  

Like informed people has said, this is not an organic movement. It's propaganda brainwashing. Just read Antonio's amazing and documented mailvox.

It's funny that some of most fervent independentist leaders are fake catalans. like Gabriel Rufián, head of ERC in Barcelona and spokesperson in congress. His both parents are Andalussians that went to work in Catalonia.

I guess some of the independentists "have to go back"

That said, let them decide, and respect their will. But people not well informed about this shouldn't spread lies about the situation.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 09, 2017 9:39 PM  

Chent wrote:here was no "country conquered by another country and oppressed" Thank you for being clear.
You should be nicer to that straw man. He didn't do anything to you.

The fact that you reject the idea of a nation as a distinct group with their own, distinct, shared history, and culture, means only one thing, you're a one-world globalist. There's no other option.

Spain was originally a part of the Roman empire, it has no history to justify independence, and it appears to be extremely happy to throw that independence away the moment German bankers show up offering "cheap" loans.
It's time to end this charade and reunite Spain, first with France, and later with the revived Roman empire.
Because nations don't exist, only states.

Blogger Lazarus June 09, 2017 9:40 PM  

DonReynolds wrote:That is the reason why the state of West Virginia is unconstitutional.

If WV is unconstitutional but de facto exists, then I would think that the constitution does not, de facto, exist.

Anonymous DonReynolds June 09, 2017 10:07 PM  

@85 Lazarus
I would prefer to disagree, but I cannot.
Anytime the Highest Law in the Land is disregarded, or ignored or stepped over, it becomes at best....ineffective.....and at worst, a matter of discrimination, selective enforcement, or merely a strongly worded suggestion.

As a citizen, I am obligated to support and defend the Constitution, but what obligation remains when my own government can feel free to ignore the parts they find inconvenient, create new obligations that never before existed (without lawful amendment), and assume powers that were expressly forbidden in the same constitution document?

This country was created by men who believed their rights as English subjects were being abused by Parliament and the King and his soldiers, judges, and ministers.

Blogger Francis The Pope June 09, 2017 10:12 PM  

This is like the Scottish "independence" movement, creating your own state which will really be just a province within the EU is not independence.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd June 09, 2017 11:35 PM  

Lazarus wrote:If WV is unconstitutional but de facto exists, then I would think that the constitution does not, de facto, exist.

It does not exist, except as an old scrap of parchment.

Blogger Chent June 10, 2017 6:32 PM  

@Snidely

"The fact that you reject the idea of a nation as a distinct group with their own, distinct, shared history, and culture, means only one thing, you're a one-world globalist. There's no other option."

You are talking about straw men. I never said that. Projection, projection... Are you a SJW? They always project.

Of course, I am not one-world globalist. This does not mean that I think there is a concept like "nation", an invention of Germanic nationalism in the XIX century that Catalan nationalism adopted when talking about "the Catalan race" became out-of-fashion.

There are a lot of cultures in the world and some territories aspire to independence. The overlap between cultures and territories wanting independence is not one-to-one (there are not "nations" destined to become States, only territories that aspire to independence in one moment of history, depending on historical contingencies and fights of power, not about "the immortal essence of this territory"). Or to be exact, groups within these territories are the ones that want independence. For example, the people wanting independence in USA was a minority.

It can be argued that United States had the same culture as England at the time of independence. They were Protestant, white, spoke English, with similar culture and common law. Some territories like Catalonia have not a different culture that destine them for independence (this is not to say that Catalonia can be independent, this will depend on a lot of factors). They have a language spoken by a minority of the population (because most people speak Spanish) and that's all they have (but having a language does not mean being a country). They have a shared history...shared with Spain, since 1469 or since 1150. Aragon has the same history that Catalonia since 1150 so there is nothing special about Catalonia. They have a shared culture ... with the rest of Spain. Of course, they have local traditions ("els castellers") and local dishes...like every other regionin Spain. This flimsy base is your argument about Catalonia being a nation.

I see you have not answered about my questions about Basque country, because you prefer to move in the area of generalities where your fallacies cannot be discovered. Let's put the Basque country again as an example, because you say that it is a nation. Of course, I am not speaking because of you, you are a lost cause or a troll. I am writing for the other people reading this.

"reject the idea of a nation as a distinct group with their own, distinct, shared history, and culture,"

It is the Basque country a distinct culture as the rest of Spain? No, of course, they have their local dishes, but they speak mostly Spanish, they are of Catholic tradition, they have the same history of Spain and have never been independent. They were part of the Kingdom of Navarre briefly and then they were part of the Kingdom of Castile. It is not a shared history either. The different territories of the Basque country (Biscay, Gipuzkoa and Alava) were never united...until they were part of the Kingdom of Castile. They have a short distinct history... distinct between them, before being incorporated to Castile. After that, they have a shared history... with the rest of Castile and Spain. They have had no distinct, shared history in any time of history. Your definition fails.

"Because nations don't exist, only states."

Exactly. Slow learner, huh?


Blogger Chent June 10, 2017 6:33 PM  

@Snidely

"Spain was originally a part of the Roman empire, it has no history to justify independence, and it appears to be extremely happy to throw that independence away the moment German bankers show up offering "cheap" loans.

It's time to end this charade and reunite Spain, first with France, and later with the revived Roman empire."

Well, I thought "this guy is either disingenuous or a moron". Now I don't have any doubt: you are a moron. Your Walt Disney model of history, where you mix events 2000 years apart, the Roman Empire with the European Union (and the Roman Hispania with the modern Spain) is one of the most moronic arguments I have ever read (and I have read lots of moronic ideas).

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 11, 2017 12:52 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 11, 2017 12:53 AM  

Chent wrote:No, of course, they have their local dishes, but they speak mostly Spanish, they are of Catholic tradition, they have the same history of Spain and have never been independent. They were part of the Kingdom of Navarre briefly and then they were part of the Kingdom of Castile. It is not a shared history either. The different territories of the Basque country (Biscay, Gipuzkoa and Alava) were never united...until they were part of the Kingdom of Castile. They have a short distinct history... distinct between them, before being incorporated to Castile. After that, they have a shared history... with the rest of Castile and Spain. They have had no distinct, shared history in any time of history. Your definition fails.

Now you're just making shit up.
The Basques have been living in Vasconia, as a distinct society, with their own language and culture since at least the late stone age, probably far longer. They were never conquered by Rome, and unlike the other ethnic groups of Spain, did not come there from somewhere else. They are not only culturally distinct, they are genetically distinct and Basques can quite reliably be identified not just on DNA sampling, but on specific skeletal feature that are different from any other modern human. Some investigators even believe they are an isolate Neanderthal population that has survived to the present day.
The fact that they've never had an independent country means literally NOTHING in this context. Were the Irish a nation before they were conquered by the Normans? Of course they were, for exactly the same reason. After 9)% of the Irish adopted the English language, did they stop being a nation? Not by their own account, not by anyone who has examined the situation honestly.

You're a dishonest interlocutor, rationalizing and providing excuses for the Spanish Empire to continue to keep captive and suppress people who want nothing to do with you. All in the name of some nebulous Spanish Greatness that does neither you nor them as damn bit of good.

Unless you're some sort of blank-slate apologist who believes, despite all scientific evidence to the contrary, that culture just sort of rubs off on people, so anyone who lives next to Spanish people and speaks Spanish automatically becomes Spanish. It didn't work that way on Portugal, though, for some reason. Oh, right, they had a king in the early middle ages, so that makes all the difference.

Blogger Antonio From Spain June 11, 2017 6:18 AM  

92. Snidely Whiplash.

You're a the dishonest interlocutor as evidenced in my point 72.

Blogger Antonio From Spain June 11, 2017 8:33 AM  

Vox you say: “Anyhow, regardless of how the Calatans vote, this is an additional indication that nothing will halt the continuing rise of nationalism around the world.”

I agree that nationalism is on an upward trend that will go on worldwide, I am not at all sure it is correct to include the Catalan so called nationalism in that trend (and presumably Basqueism).

The famous Catalanist propaganda song “l’estaca” (the stick) said “if you pull hard from here and I pull hard from there it will surely fall, fall, fall, and will be able to free ourselves.” Interestingly, that is not what we are seeing today.

Just two weeks ago the national budget was approved in the Spanish parliament. The Spanish center of right party now governing did not have enough seats in the parliament.

The Basque Nationalist Party (PNV)—far from siding with the Catalanists now that the power of Madrid seems weaker than ever—voted in favor of the Spanish budget, as did the party of the Canary Islands. How does that fit into “the continuing rise of nationalism”?

The PNV, by the way, is the one that lead the Proceso Ibarretxe that in turn inspired Maragall’s new Catalan “Estatut” which lead to the present “procés”. And now that they PNV rules again in the Basque provinces and has crucial seats in the Spanish parliament, they keep perfectly silent about Catalonia. Nobody is talking about a referendum in the Basque provinces now, let alone independence. How does that fit into “the continuing rise of nationalism”?

By the way, have we all already forgotten that the referendum—then called “consulta sobiranista”—already took place in 2014 and how it went? We have all also forgotten that the immediate precedent was Pascual’s Estatut which was the legal consultation with the lowest turnout in more than half a century in Catalonia? We have certainly not forgotten the explanation given by Catalanist leaders for the low turnout to the “constitution” that had to lead to independence: it was a very nice sunny day and people preferred to go to the beach with their families. Need I say more?

As Alvin has said, why is it that all European nationalism are discouraged while separatisms are encouraged? And I’ll add: even funded by the very European states that they want to split? Because separatism is just another tool to destroy European heritage.

And as someone else said “No real European nationalists would welcome non-whites into their country.” Indeed, Vox, why do you characterize as nationalists those who have broken the law in order to import one million Muslims into western Europe? (to say nothing of the destruction of customs and local traditions perpetrated by the Catalanists)

Vox, you once said “Every open borders advocate and everyone who has supported immigration from third world nations is morally culpable for both the crimes committed by the invaders as well as the measures that will have to be taken in order to expel them.” http://voxday.blogspot.com.es/2015/10/immigration-is-rape-culture.html

Yet you find yourself “somewhat bemused by the Spanish reaction” of not wanting to reward with a nation-state those “morally culpable” of that very deed. So your proposed plan of action is to give those “morally culpable” the rule over a brand new nation-state (at the expense of the local majority who does not support them) and then take “the measures” against the leaders of said brand-new sovereign-state?

In Spain, the people whose ideas are closest to those the AltRight claims to uphold are in organizations such as

http://democracianacional.org

http://www.alternativaespanola.com/

https://www.voxespana.es/

http://partidoxlalibertad.es/

etc.

Yet I see the AltRight meticulously ignoring them and preferring the SJWs. You are “bemused” Vox? So am I. Perhaps Spain is once again the litmus test where everyone shows their true colors.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 11, 2017 11:37 AM  

Antonio From Spain wrote:Perhaps Spain is once again the litmus test where everyone shows their true colors.
Certainly you've been doing so.

Blogger Antonio From Spain June 11, 2017 4:16 PM  

There was a pro-independence referendum on November 9th, 2014. It was illegal and the Spanish government did nothing to stop it.

The referendum was fraught with irregularities because the organizers had expected that someone would stop them and so it would never actually take place. The independentists claimed victory but instead of the much-touted “declaració unilateral d'independència” (DUI), they called for regional elections, announcing that those would be “eleccions plebiscitàries” meaning that if the pro-independence parties won, then it would be understood as a “Yea” to the independence question.

The “eleccions plebiscitàries” were held on September 27th, 2015. And the political program of the independentists said that if they won then the DUI would happen within the following 18 months: by March 27th, 2017. The pro-independence block did not get a majority of the votes but got a majority of the seats in the regional parliament; they claimed that was good enough, again they claimed victory and proceeded towards the DUI with plenty of internal drama, while again nobody did anything to stop them.

The 18 months expired, again there was absolutely nobody stopping them and again there was no DUI. Instead, they started talking of a new referendum to take place on October 1st, this time they would even have ballot boxes for everybody! The official announcement was not made until June, two months after the expiration of their own promise; and it was made orally because, they said, that way nothing could be done against it legally. One of the major pro-independence parties did not even participate in the announcement of the October referendum.

Blogger Galahad78 June 12, 2017 4:59 AM  

I was going to write about this topic but just saw that Antonio From Spain and a few others have explained it perfectly :)

Blogger Antonio From Spain June 12, 2017 8:58 AM  

Addendum...

Less than two weeks after the announcement of the October referendum, Puigdemont says that he wants to go to Madrid and debate it.

http://www.lavanguardia.com/r/GODO/LV/p4/WebSite/2017/06/11/img_lgomez_20170611-003056_imagenes_lv_otras_fuentes_portada-011.PNG

Anonymous c matt June 12, 2017 5:51 PM  

Just how exactly can a government FORCE people to remain a part of the nation when they do not wish to be and still claim to be a free society?

Simple: It lies.

As someone upthread mentioned, legality has nothing to do with secession. To borrow from Cap. Jack Sparrow, all that matters is what a region can do and what it can't do. If it has the force of arms to secede, it can. If it doesn't, it can't. I am fully on board with a Calexit - in fact, I think the entire US should get to vote on it - after all, it would affect both sides of the property line, so why not? Why not do a national referendum on which states should stay, which should go (SGTOW)?

Blogger Antonio From Spain June 14, 2017 9:02 AM  

Nothing will halt the popcorn...

Between the 13th and 14th of June 2017 the ruling center of right party in Spain faced a vote of no confidence in the Spanish parliament pushed forward by the far left Podemos.

If it succeeded, Pablo Iglesias, the leader of Podemos—who has always defended the Catalan referendums—would have become the president of the Spanish government.

Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya—the only party that supported and accompanied Puigdemont’s party in the famous announcement on June 1st —voted in favor of Podemos. But Puigdemont’s own party did not vote in favor of Podemos. Neither did the Basque Nationalist Party, by the way.

Podemos' vote failed. Votes:

Yea: 82
Nay: 170
Abstain: 97

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