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Sunday, June 04, 2017

Darkstream: hate is a Christian virtue

On tonight's Darkstream, I explain why there is no contradiction between the famous injunction to love your enemies and the repeated commands to hate wickedness and evil. It's more than a simple "hate the sin, love the sinner", so do watch it before expressing an opinion.

I thought it was informative to see how this, more than any previous Darkstream, stirred up trolls and Churchians. It may serve you well to ask yourself this: why are they so opposed to hate? If they so readily accept so many other sins, why does hate so readily draw their angry attention?

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151 Comments:

Anonymous Tanjil Bren June 04, 2017 8:33 PM  

Because hate may generate action, the last thing they want.

Anonymous Looking Glass June 04, 2017 8:35 PM  

Proverbs 6:16-19 (ESV)

16 There are six things that the LORD hates,
seven that are an abomination to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that make haste to run to evil,
19 a false witness who breathes out lies,
and one who sows discord among brothers.


Because God hates everything about them. They are the definition of an "abomination" to the Lord, thus they work very hard to blind us to that truth.

Anonymous Looking Glass June 04, 2017 8:40 PM  

The Christian, however, first has to understand "prautes" http://biblehub.com/greek/4240.htm . Historically translated as "meekness"; modern translation is "gentleness". Neither is quite correct.

" Cognate: 4240 praýtēs (compare 4236 /praótēs, another feminine noun which is also derived from the root pra-, emphasizing the divine origin of the meekness) – meekness ("gentle strength") which expresses power with reserve and gentleness. "

Once the Christian understands the proper control of Power, then they can learn to Hate properly. That's not a sermon you'll see very often: "How to hate and hate hard, the Godly way".

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother June 04, 2017 8:42 PM  

I hate those who seek to kill my nation, my people and my children.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother June 04, 2017 9:05 PM  

I'd also like to take this opportunity to say that Southside Market has the best brisket in Central Texas. It also beats the pants off that shit y'all call BBQ in the Southeast.

Anonymous Strange Aeons June 04, 2017 9:05 PM  

Are online transcripts of the discussion available, for those who don't catch it in realtime but wish to learn?

Blogger Chiva June 04, 2017 9:06 PM  

We are told to dispise a vile person. Psalm 15.

Blogger swiftfoxmark2 June 04, 2017 9:08 PM  

C.S. Lewis understood this concept very well. Just read "Perelandra".

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky June 04, 2017 9:09 PM  

Excellent point about the necessity of the SJWs claim on love, and rejection of hate. In their theory, of course, for when has anybody seen the first iota of love coming from the "Love Trumps Hate" crowd? It's nothing but hate from those guys, 24/7.

I'd add that as a corollary to the notion that hate is a Christian virtue, so is unforgiveness. That came up last week after the ridiculous business with Kathy Griffin, and I called for no quarter, no mercy in the face of her apology. But aren't you Christian, shouldn't you forgive?

I don't know if this is the correct, approved way to explain it, but I pointed out that the mandate for forgiveness applies only to the penitent. But, in equal measure, a mandate of unforgiveness applies to the unrepentant. And as Kathy proved the very next day on her second damage control press confab, she's as unrepentant as they come.

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable June 04, 2017 9:11 PM  

It occurs to me that it would be very enlightening to have a vocabulary analysis of the left and the right, along with frequency. Hypothesis: the right would have a far larger vocabulary of real words, foreign words, and archaic words; the left would have a larger vocabulary of vulgarity and vacuous postmodern jargon.

The left would also speak an order of magnitude more about hate, due to being both fountains of hatred and also crybullies that project like Gonzo's schnoz.

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky June 04, 2017 9:11 PM  

Oh additionally, there are a few good theologians, such as Alvin Plantinga, but they mostly serve as exceptions to the rule.

Anonymous Causal Lurker June 04, 2017 9:15 PM  

Love can be the requirement to confront another, remind them of error, and ask them to pause, think, and mend their ways. Brotherly Love, as I’ve used the example, means saying on occasion “stop, you are harming yourself and harming others” and taking action to stop them. Love means judging the actions of yourself or others, determining if good or evil results from the actions, and taking action to help or stop. The actions may require you to engage in hatred; so be it. This is painful, and requires prayer and support from other good men to help your soul heal.

SJWs never want to be judged: “mene, mene, tekel upharsin”. Their lives will be demanded of them, that very night. Someone able to judge with a clear eye and formed conscience is able to see them for the weak and evil creatures they are. They flee the Light, seeking to hide in Darkness. How many SJW phrases sound all too similar to “if you loved me, you’d let me do this; if you loved me, you wouldn’t judge.” Oh, the verse “judge not lest ye be judged?” Read the entire section of the chapter in context. If you judge someone or an action, then you have a moral requirement to be able to accept judgement by others. SJWs fear and hate sound judgement and clear moral stance. I heard the argument of “but I’m your brother …” one too many times, and removed rhetorical hide with a dull knife and salt. I did this out of love, to stop the damage, but it meant steeling myself to hate enough for flensing with Truth.

We must judge the offense and offender. If we find them evil, we can hate the sin and the sinner. This doesn’t relieve our obligation to pray for them to realize their errors and reject the sin. If they reject sin, seek forgiveness, and make amends, then there is no longer a reason to hate.

Anonymous Millenium June 04, 2017 9:16 PM  

A turning point for me was learning that the commandment is "thou shall not murder" and that "thou shall not kill" is a churchian cuck out. God's hatred is unmissable in the Old Testament and he commands his people to kill more than once, something frequently overlooked by churchians.

Blogger Phillip George June 04, 2017 9:16 PM  

It is intrinsically self contradictory to think you can have unlimited tolerance for the intolerant. Carl Popper.

Martin Amiss' 'stupefied by relativism'

this is why the death penalty won't go away. Housing, feeding, tolerating Aurelie Chatelain's killer is a crime against humanity. All humanity.

Western Democracies are paying for the Madrasas where "their" children are being taught to hate us. This is the economic certainty of societal suicide.

Blogger Sam Spade June 04, 2017 9:18 PM  

SJWs fear our hate for their evil actions and states of mind grows.

That's when good people get really dangerous for them.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother June 04, 2017 9:18 PM  

Kathy Griffin famously declared "Fuck Jesus". My fingers don't even want to type that.

Blogger Clayton Barnett June 04, 2017 9:20 PM  

Spot on. And, we must demonstrate our love/hate with our God-given bodies. When I read Ransom's revelation of that, it completely brought home to me, a then non-believer, a home truth of our faith.

Blogger Salt June 04, 2017 9:24 PM  

If they so readily accept so many other sins, why does hate so readily draw their angry attention?

Good question.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer June 04, 2017 9:24 PM  

Note the list from proverbs in post 2. It not once, but twice calls out lying as something the Lord hates. SJWs lives are built around lies. Convincing us not to hate is their defense mechanism.

Blogger Wanderer June 04, 2017 9:27 PM  

Hate and love are neutral things. They can be good or bad. Hatred of injustice is a good thing. Love of injustice is a bad thing.

"Hate is always evil" is stupid new age hippy bullshit. May as well believe in crystals and horoscopes while you're at it.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother June 04, 2017 9:29 PM  

Hate is a chink in the average Christian's armor. Useful cudgel, that's it.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents June 04, 2017 9:29 PM  

Hate rouses up churchians because they have confused agape love with niceness. Why they are confused debateable.

Blogger Cail Corishev June 04, 2017 9:44 PM  

If they so readily accept so many other sins, why does hate so readily draw their angry attention?

Regarding Churchians, the first reason that leaps to mind is that proper hate in the Christian sense requires both judgment and action. If you hate a sin, you have to use your judgment to identify it, and then you have to take action to try to stamp it out -- especially in yourself. Acceptance requires neither. There's nothing easier than accepting everyone as-is.

Blogger John rockwell June 04, 2017 9:52 PM  

Is it not an act of mercy to put the murderer on death row while ensuring he has ample opportunities to save his soul by the pastor that is appointed to him? So that either he is executed into paradise or into hell? And there is no way to pretend repentance since he is going to die anyway.

Either way its a win,win is it not?

Blogger John rockwell June 04, 2017 9:56 PM  

Also the environment of death row and the impending foreshadowing of the last judgment encourages repentance. Likewise I really think that the last thing the murderer should see is the cross. And his procession into the hands of God be accompanied by church service led by the local Reformed congregation.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother June 04, 2017 10:05 PM  

Don't touch the poop

Anonymous b3k June 04, 2017 10:05 PM  

"Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God!
O men of blood, depart from me!
They speak against you with malicious intent;
your enemies take your name in vain.
Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?
I hate them with complete hatred;
I count them my enemies."
(Psalm 139:19-22)

Blogger SamuraiJack June 04, 2017 10:06 PM  

One of my favorite songs: Cool to hate, by Offspring. Righteous anger and hatred is good.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother June 04, 2017 10:07 PM  

..aaand it's hate all the way down!

Anonymous dr kill June 04, 2017 10:13 PM  

Y'all good Xtians can argue about good and evil, but for me, something or someone to hate is required for life. There really is nothing better than a good, cold, calculating hate to get one moving in the morning.

Blogger Mountain Man June 04, 2017 10:17 PM  

First dark stream Ive ever watched. I enjoyed it...very biblically sound.
The failure of Christians to compare scripture with scripture is what leads many of them to take verses out of context. The Bible is truly a holistic book that gives us all of the answers we ever need....if we take the time to read and ponder what is found within.

Anonymous SN June 04, 2017 10:18 PM  

VD makes some pretty good points here, but it's a hard pill to swallow.

It helps VD's case that everyone opposing him have to rely on weak emotional arguments though.

Still, pretty hard pill.

Blogger Johnny June 04, 2017 10:19 PM  

The problem with "hate the sin, love the sinner" is that it overlooks the way people actually operate. The problem is that the love the sinner on a functional level eliminates disapproval of the sin and makes it functionally a non sin.

They get into the same thing with child rearing. Don't tell the child he is bad, tell him he did a bad thing. What happens is that if there is no disapproval, then there is no such entity as a bad thing and moral guidance falls to zero. Having watched parents implement this, what they actually do is make it covertly obvious to the child that he disapproved of, even as they may claim otherwise. One women I watched pushished the child with a long dreary lecture coupled with lots of hard looks, even as she would not admit that she was being punishing. The kid got the message.

The correct method is to forgive, but after punishment, not as a substitute for punishment. Otherwise you are covertly giving a pass to the actions.

Blogger Darwinite June 04, 2017 10:20 PM  

Love thy neighbor,
Forgive thine enemy,
Crush the head of the snake.

Blogger ZhukovG June 04, 2017 10:28 PM  

Both Hate and Love acknowledge the value of the other person as a creation of God. It is indifference that dehumanizes and reduces the other person to nothing.

Anonymous Wraithburn June 04, 2017 10:30 PM  

We are commanded to be like our Father in heaven. We are told He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Throughout the Bible, He hates sin. And while He has great mercy and patience, that hate makes Him act. It didn't go away. In fact, that hate is why we need Jesus Christ's sacrifice. If God does not hate evil and will not abide it in His presence, there is no need to be washed clean by the Blood of the Lamb. The churchians who do not hate reveal who their father is, the same as the pharisees.

Blogger Nick S June 04, 2017 10:38 PM  

Forgiveness requires repentance. I can love a repentant sinner, but not an unrepentant one. Someone who refuses to admit they've done anything that requires forgiveness, can't accept that forgiveness even if it is freely offered.

SJWs always lie and then double down. I hate them.

Blogger Chris McCullough June 04, 2017 10:40 PM  

Today my pastor gave a sermon on the continually waning influence of the Church in America.

One of the key things he expressed was that we shouldn't act like "jerks" because that's what the world wants.

I don't think I agree with that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there seemed to be more Christians when we were more aggressive.

Anonymous Avalanche June 04, 2017 10:44 PM  

@6 Aeons -- you can watch the replay: VERY worth your time!
https://www.periscope.tv/voxday/1BdxYvWwqdlKX

Blogger Timmy3 June 04, 2017 10:50 PM  

I refuse to love the sinner. At what point should we realize a Christian isn't a punching bag. They shouldn't be abused on account of their religion and they shouldn't be subject to a double standard either. Christians should hate if they feel that way. It's better for their mental health.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother June 04, 2017 10:50 PM  

Men will not follow cowardly, smarmy pussies. That aptly describes churchianity today.

Blogger Koanic June 04, 2017 10:53 PM  

It's

"Love YOUR enemies; do good to those who persecute YOU."

Not

"Love your brother's enemy; do good to those who persecute your brother."

Blogger IreneAthena June 04, 2017 10:54 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Sheila4g June 04, 2017 10:58 PM  

Just watched the Darkstream, Vox. Very much enjoyed it. I wonder why I never felt that confusion so many churchians suffer from regarding hatred and love? Perhaps because, before I opened myself to Jesus and his Grace, I was well aware of and feared evil. I recognized evil early on; the part I had trouble with was accepting God's existence and mercy and reconciling His righteousness with the existence of evil in the world. Even now I still struggle with loving my fellow man, but I had no problem hating evil long before I was a believer. As you note, there is a clear distinction between someone you have a quibble with or even a personal feud, or someone who wronged you in some way, and someone or something that is truly wicked and evil. The churchians dismiss that difference with their airy "God is love" mantra. That God of love hates the wicked. Without hate there can be no love. Simple, really.

Blogger IreneAthena June 04, 2017 11:25 PM  

I hate that 43 civilians were killed in Raqqa June 3 when their apartment building was demolished by a US airstrike. I hate that Prime Minister May resolved, short-sightedly, to continue UK's military involvement in Iraq and Syria as a means of reducing domestic terrorism. I hate that the SJW and Churchian view is just as short-sided, witness a brief hiatus in their war on Trump the day after he bombed Syria some weeks ago.

So, I'm not here to throw rocks at the windows of the Church of Beale. On Saturday night, Vox did criticize that aspect of PM May's anti-terrorist strategy. If all followers of the Prince of Peace had been raising holy hell over aggressive US foreign policy for the last two and a half decades, and had demanded "WE HAVE TO GO BACK", there would've been less need, possibly NO need, for the "They Have to Go Back" choruses today. It's still not anywhere near too late for the "We Have to Go Back" option to cut deeply into the overwhelming numbers of refugees as well as the fuel for radicalization.

Blogger ZhukovG June 04, 2017 11:27 PM  

Now I haven't thought a lot about this, so I could be off-base. It occurs to me that Hate is positional while Love is active.

Waking up in the morning one doesn't resolve to hate someone you've never met and know nothing about.

But you might wake resolved to perform an act of charity(love) for a complete stranger.

So Hating and being Hated are positions one is placed in by default, based on the choices a person makes.

An SJWs behaviour may place him in a position of Hating God and being Hated by God. If we are by choice on God's side, then we must by position be Hated by the SJW and Hate the SJW in turn.

But we act in love when we pray that the SJW will repent and switch sides. We act in love when we punish the SJW in order that he might see the error of his ways. We act in love when we resist the SJW, by any means necessary, that we might throw his position, as an enemy of God, into stark relief.

But though the Christian acts in Love toward the SJW, until repentance, the Christian cannot help but to Hate the SJW.

Blogger liberranter June 04, 2017 11:28 PM  

That's not a sermon you'll see very often: "How to hate and hate hard, the Godly way".

Unpacking the theology behind that is just too much heavy lifting for most "pastors" today. It's one of those "spiritual meat" topics that would put them in the spiritual ER, since most of them, like their congregations, aren't yet even close to being weaned from spiritual milk.

Blogger Phillip George June 04, 2017 11:40 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Phillip George June 04, 2017 11:47 PM  

Genesis 9:6 English Standard Version (ESV)

6 “Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed,
for God made man in his own image.

The Churchian will disobey God's Commandment which were before Abraham or Moses, the Laws given at Sinai, to tolerate/ suffer the murderer to live.

In so much as they tolerate are they accomplices after the fact.
In so much as they accommodate for murderers are they partakers of their crimes.
In so much as they fund invasion are they enemies of the innocent.
In so much as they respect liars, anti Christs and followers of Anti Christs, do they usurp the throne of God themselves.
In so much as they apologize for rebellion against Gospel Truth do they rebel against the Creator of Heavens and Earth themselves.

Multi Cultic is rebellion against God.

Jesus didn't say the thieves beside Him were unjustly condemned. How much less murders for allah, Muhammad's anti Christ small g god.

IMHO. This debate never went away.
We hallow the image of God or we don't.

Blogger CM June 04, 2017 11:56 PM  

I listened to as much as I could stand. My technology made that painful to watch.

First, new #NA*LT - Not All Theologians are Like That. Granted I don't listen to enough current theologians to know who the good ones are, but your commentors... why do we oppose shorthand communication so damn much?

Second, I had no idea what you said was controversial, but the comments bore that out rather well. I have a thing... there are deceivers and deceived. Some deceived revel in it even knowing they are deceived... some of those may become deceivers, others are the ones who literally know not what they do.

I hate the liar. The liar is the wicked... he is the one who corrupts. When we sit quietly and let the lies swirl around us instead of confronting them, we confine THOSE to hell because we never showed them the Truth. Those are the Churchians... the milquetoast that cowers before a damned world, not having the confidence and assurance of Grace enough to find their damn balls.

The heretics are to be purged from the church. Liars and bearers of false witness to Christ - because they peddle a false God and if you can'tknow God, how can you be saved? Purge them from your church and fearlessly preach the Gospel because THAT is how you love the sinner.

Blogger CM June 04, 2017 11:57 PM  

p.s. I loved it... first I listened to. can't gaurantee a 2nd...

Blogger Zeke OF Confettii June 05, 2017 12:00 AM  

How long before the sinner _becomes_ the sin? How long before the action becomes such a part of his being that he _always_ doubles down, or has the pizza parlor on speed dial?

Blogger CM June 05, 2017 12:04 AM  

Zeke OF Confettii June 05, 2017 12:00 AM
How long before the sinner _becomes_ the sin? How long before the action becomes such a part of his being that he _always_ doubles down, or has the pizza parlor on speed dial?

Don't cast your pearls before swine. They reject your message? Walk away. It isn'tour job to convince them - its just our job to boldly proclaim. God will do the rest.

Anonymous Catholic Pete June 05, 2017 12:27 AM  

Interesting thoughts Vox.

You’re right to point out that not all hatred is contrary to virtue; sometimes it's synonymous with it. However “hatred is a Christian virtue” seems like an overly dogmatic way of putting it given the nuances you highlighted. My guess is that this was a rhetorical flourish.

Our enemies and persecutors aren’t necessarily the ones who hate us, as you mention. In fact, Jesus told His disciples in advance that there would be a time in which their enemies would put them to death thinking that they were rendering a service to God. In this sense we are to love our enemies since blinded by sin and Satan they don’t have full knowledge of the gravity of their actions, but full knowledge can be obtained(by the Holy Spirit) if we expose the lies with the Truth.

Having retreated at a Catholic seminary I can say there’s a mixture of liberals and traditionalist, but mostly traditionalist surprisingly in my area of England. All should adhere to the dogmas of the Church on pain of sin but some choose to interpret the Church doctrine liberally on account of Vatican 2.

Blogger F.D. Stephens June 05, 2017 12:29 AM  

This was eye opening. Thanks.

Blogger Phillip George June 05, 2017 12:29 AM  

Three muhammadans were killed in London in the execution of a street battle, their cause being Jihad for allah..

We honour their deaths by taking their brothers jihad as seriously as they do

If someone has declared war against you, and muhammad did, do you do them justice by denying their claim?

Are you at war or not?

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 05, 2017 1:02 AM  

Not having watched the podcast in question, I can't really comment on it but as regards the New Testament the injunction is pretty clearly against hating *people* (such as John 3:14).

IMO, no one needs to learn how to hate, people don't need training in hate - it is just a natural outgrwoth of our consciousness. If, however, we decide to take up the Christian mantle and try to love our fellows as best we can have life more abundantly.

The good thing about this teaching is that it is easy to test out in your personal life - just pick out someone you hate and try your best to love them. You won't suddenly start being a pushover or a fool but the upside benefits can be quite remarkable.

Just so it is clear, though - Loving someone doesn't necessitate doing anything for them or allowing them to victimize you.

Blogger DJ | AMDG June 05, 2017 1:03 AM  

Not Countyline or The Salt Lick or The Grist Mill?

Blogger Phillip George June 05, 2017 1:05 AM  

Shawn does loving a murderer, include praying for their soul as you loving the image they were made in, dispatch them lovingly to their Maker and Judge of the whole Earth.

This is basic Jurisprudence upon which the West was actually constructed

Anonymous TS June 05, 2017 1:05 AM  

"In so much as they tolerate are they accomplices after the fact.
In so much as they accommodate for murderers are they partakers of their crimes."

Yeah Babel 2.0 aka the new world disorder relies on such passivity to evil and won't be "built" any other way. No surprise that the new world disorder has been prophesied to have an amalgamated religion in the end times with their own false "prophet".

Anonymous TS June 05, 2017 1:11 AM  

"Men will not follow cowardly, smarmy pussies. That aptly describes churchianity today."

Interestingly in the King James version of the bible it said men would been thrown into hell for being cowardly. Of course the modern translations omit that fact.

Blogger Phillip George June 05, 2017 1:17 AM  

alt media need to speak it out in black and white

London was an urban area street battle in an ongoing war.
Urban warfare involving non uniformed enemy combatants. Every other generation has used summary execution against same.

What was shocking this time was that it was a running bloody battle not a single detonation of a device.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 05, 2017 1:32 AM  

@63, Yes, Philip, I would agree with that general attitude. If I had to kill someone I believe the Christian way is to do it with love in my heart (so much as I am able). I would definitely pray for them and hope that they would receive mercy.

Frankly, even if I knew that wouldn't affect the object of my pray at all, I would still try and love them for "selfish" reasons. Having to carry around hatred for someone I killed seems like it would be a real drag :)

Blogger John rockwell June 05, 2017 1:36 AM  

There are also passages like "act like men" which are also expunged from recent egalitarian pro-feminist bible translations like the NIV 2011

Anonymous MongoJimmy June 05, 2017 1:37 AM  

H8 Speech is GR8 Speech

Anonymous Rocklea June 05, 2017 1:43 AM  

Feels like rediscovering a mindset, something old

Anonymous ClayonMc June 05, 2017 2:05 AM  

As Christians, we should all be guided by Christ's actions with the woman at the well:

Surely, He hated her sin, which was an affront to Him. So He called her out on it. BUT...
He didn't smite her. He loved her. He called her to repentance. He gave her the gift of His grace.

So many times, in our effort to fight "churchians," we forget the true mystery of the one true God: that he is AT ONCE, AND FOR ALL TIME, perfectly just, but also perfectly merciful. He is the Lion of Judah, but also the Lamb who was slain. He is the fullest expression of love, but also the completion of the law.

Don't make the mistake of favoring one side over the other. Never forget his love or his justice - for you were measured by one, but saved by the other.

Blogger Resident Moron™ June 05, 2017 2:12 AM  

A lot of Christian people think love and hate are feelings. So when they feel negative emotions towards anyone, they feel guilty, thinking they're failing to love

But love is not defined on the Bible as emotional; on the contrary it is described always in relation to action.

Love is action in the service of life.

Hate is action opposed to life.

So, e.g. the police officers who risked themselves to shoot rampaging Muslims in London last night, were demonstrating Christian love. Defending life. Promoting life.

It's not that we don't have feelings about these things; we do and we should. But they are not feelings.

"Be angry, and sin not" is a double command. If the slaughter of innocents doesn't make you angry, you're as much a sinner as the slaghterer. If you're disinterested in life, you're beteft of love. If we're not willing to act when life is being destroyed right in front of us, we're unbelievers.

Blogger Chris Robertson June 05, 2017 2:23 AM  

Vox, I'd be curious about your opinion on my book on the subject. The latter section deals specifically with Christianity and hate, specifically with the meaning of "agape" as it is used in Christian theology

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1520526016

Blogger CM June 05, 2017 2:29 AM  

**IMO, no one needs to learn how to hate, people don't need training in hate - it is just a natural outgrwoth of our consciousness. If, however, we decide to take up the Christian mantle and try to love our fellows as best we can have life more abundantly.**

Maybe to hate people, but it is far harder to redirect that hate to the one deserving of it.

Some people willingly become the deceiver's minions and like it. If you wish to know the difference, pray for discernment.

**Frankly, even if I knew that wouldn't affect the object of my pray at all, I would still try and love them for "selfish" reasons. Having to carry around hatred for someone I killed seems like it would be a real drag :)**

Again, not about hating that person. When you let a muderer live, who are you loving? The muderer who is allowed to think that his choices in this life have no consequence? Or the future victims of that murderer?

Sure, pray for his immortal soul as you dispatch him to the only one capable of knowing his heart. You are still conflating hating evil with hating people. You should listen to the episode before you argue with ghosts.

Anonymous George of the Jungle June 05, 2017 2:33 AM  

'Hate is the sword we raise to protect those we love.'

Blogger John Locke June 05, 2017 2:54 AM  

I would say "hate the sin not the sinner" is appropriate depending on the sin, other times it's not appropriate, for example an evil rapist pedo deserves the hate he recieves, I'm not gonna love him, but only hate what he did. I'd hate both him & his evil deed. But with other sins such as sloth or fornication I may hate the sin but not necessarily the sinner. That's my take anyway.

Blogger Tupla-J June 05, 2017 3:43 AM  

I sure hope Judeo Christ is fast with his periscope to youtube conversion, being able to download the video as .mp3 is very convenient for me.

Anonymous Urban II June 05, 2017 4:00 AM  

In Christianity love is not a feeling; it means "to will the good of another". When this is understood it becomes clear that the sinner is to be loved, not hated. It is never appropriate to will the bad of another. Putting this all into context, it is never good to sin, thus love often requires stopping the sinner from sinning and punishing the sinner. It is appropriate to hate what is contrary to the natural law, but a hatred that aims directly at the person is always sinful.

Blogger Doom June 05, 2017 4:10 AM  

"It may serve you well to ask yourself this: why are they so opposed to hate? If they so readily accept so many other sins, why does hate so readily draw their angry attention?"

The problem with them and hate is they hate any who... see? Right there. They simply don't understand. They ARE hateful. They only direct their hate at "their own". There is something seriously wrong with them.

Anonymous rotekz June 05, 2017 4:10 AM  

You have said you prefer the NIV Bible and sometimes for quotes the KJV.

Do you have any thoughts on the C.S.Lewis NRSV? Having bought Mere Christianity by the author I thought it would be a good companion version but am hoping you will not say it has issues.

I'm new to this other than having had some dull school R.E. and am looking for a way in. C.S.Lewis seems to be potentially more interesting option for a noob.

Blogger Phillip George June 05, 2017 4:27 AM  

anyway this is all a bit passe. Sadiq Kahn is leading a candle lit vigil tonight, to pay respects, tribute and honour to the Heroes, Heroes no less, who died among the Revellers.
Once everyone sees how undivided Sadiq is and how defiant, defiant I say, and how much he is going to go on doing what he always does, these lone wolf cowardly losers, of no particular religious persuasion except for being self radicalized extremists reacting to right wing xenophobia will all sign up for diversity understanding classes and de-radicalization programs cunningly introduced by the ever defiant government. So the problem is solved really. Pause to consider the three dead lone wolves and how their families who are also hurting. They are the victims as well. Prayers and thoughts to all. Photo Op displaying courage and resolve. Get the gravity angle. Comfort a victim kid for twenty to thirty seconds while we adjust lighting. Cut, can it, we're outta here.

Anonymous User June 05, 2017 4:28 AM  

Hate that which is hateful, that's not tricky

Anonymous VFM 6184 June 05, 2017 4:29 AM  

Salt Lick, all the way.

Blogger Phillip George June 05, 2017 5:04 AM  

Vox, apparently Anonymous have a hack obtained a copy of MI5s new crisis management plan.'
]
They are rumoured to be have printed tens of thousands of copies of a booklet with chapters:
How to avoid revellers in public spaces.
How to look like a Muslim in a Crisis situation.
Light weight emergency hijabs to deploy in a crisis to protect women.
Top 10 Koranic verses to recite while pleading for your life.
How to deny being British in a survival situation.
Famous dignified surrenders.
Peace Pacts that Neville Chamberlain would strike if he were alive today.

they have your back. Security hasn't been this intense since they did Louis Mountbatten's personal body guard.

We the people. yeah I know,

Blogger Antony June 05, 2017 5:05 AM  

OT - but a report on Antifa ; http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2017/06/antifa-movement-anti-trump-politics-nazi

Blogger Phillip George June 05, 2017 5:29 AM  

Supplemental.

MI5:

Did we pay to high a price to win WW2.
Apologies we can still make for the Crusades.
Why slavery isn't as bad as you think.
Finding ways to pay the Dhimmi and make ends meet.
Yes, they will still let you go to the football.

Rule Britannia, how anachronistic can we get?

The RN was built to take down musselmen slavers

yeah I know.

Anonymous A. Nonymous June 05, 2017 6:46 AM  

My armour is Contempt
My shield is Disgust
My sword is Hatred
In the Emperor's Name
Let none survive

Anonymous George of the Jungle June 05, 2017 7:11 AM  

@77
It used to be humble praying inside a Christian Church between you and your Creator, now it's pseudo-moral posturing in public for everybody to see. I don't think the left has actually improved anything about morality, do you ???

Anonymous Bz June 05, 2017 7:18 AM  

Getting rid of the church and killing all serious thinking about these matters certainly limits how sophisticated reasoning we can get. It can also be convenient to limit moral sophistication to bland greeting card sentiments.

("hey, philosophical zombies are serious and like sophisticated, dude")

Anonymous Bz June 05, 2017 7:21 AM  

Maybe Mayor Saddiq Khan can bring some women to ululate about the lives lost. That would be nice, wouldn't it?

Blogger SteelPalm June 05, 2017 7:31 AM  

Discussions of this sort do remind me of one very pious, fervently Christian woman's plan for dealing with Islam;

http://www.barnhardt.biz/2015/12/11/how-a-sane-virile-leader-or-leaders-would-handle-the-musloid-problem/

Blogger Gapeseed June 05, 2017 7:35 AM  

I will have to watch the Darkstream to counter my initial dubiousness. I feel English might be missing words to describe the state of hate acceptable to God. Perhaps it is not hatred per se but righteous wrath which is acceptable to our Lord? Determining then what is righteous can provide the check on reveling in hatred, a state of mind often warned against in Scripture.

As an aside, I imagine that the scene in Return of the Jedi where the Luke rejects the Emperor's exhortation to hate has been absorbed by the zeitgeist such that all hatred is dark. Combine that notion with the popular perception to never judge even behavior, and you have the neutered Church masculinity you see today where men are afraid to act, speak, or often, even to think.

Anonymous George of the Jungle June 05, 2017 7:46 AM  

Other commenters have stated this already: hate is not an emotion. It is righteous anger culminating in steely resolve.

Blogger William Meisheid June 05, 2017 8:46 AM  

A number of points need to be emphasized:
1. Both hate and love are neutral in that they can be expressed both righteously and sinfully.
2. Love in the NT is primarily agape, which is personal self-sacrifice for the good of another. I suggest you read C.S. Lewis' "The Four Loves" as a primer.
3. Paul qualifies the expression of love (agape) in Philippians 1:9-11 "And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment, that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ, being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God."

Love requires judgment, with knowledge and discernment. It is never all accepting. It is always holy.

4. Godly hate is always directed at sin and when at a person it is because they have embraced that sin and made it part of who they are. The problem is that without God's holiness, hate can easily turn sinful and unholy, just as love can turn to license. It is a difficult task to hate in a godly manner over a period of time, a very difficult task that increases in difficulty with time.

Anonymous glosoli June 05, 2017 10:19 AM  

Thanks Vox, as a new Christian this was very useful.
It's all about truth versus lies, and the word of God is full of truth.
Yet the serpent lied to Eve to trick her into eating the apple. Echoes of that today via feminism.
God bless you brother.

Blogger Happy LP9 June 05, 2017 10:27 AM  

I use the term detest which is serious and dire in connotation so yes out of sheer hatred justifiable or not many took actions against the evil or wrong via the power of the pen, letter of the law, the debate, etc.

Blogger Matamoros June 05, 2017 11:23 AM  

13. Millenium God's hatred is unmissable in the Old Testament

It is indeed. And God in the Old Testament is none other than the pre-incarnate Jesus that the cucks try to turn into a fellow cuck

Anonymous fop June 05, 2017 12:06 PM  

MAKE HATE GREAT AGAIN

Anonymous VFM #7916 June 05, 2017 12:10 PM  

I notice not one commenter here hit the obvious point, from a science fiction author no less:

Grok, then hate.

From a Christian standpoint: Love them, and love them enough to hate them. Remember that the opposite of love is indifference. It is indifference that lets Islam spread. Then it gets delivered by knife, truck, and bomb to your children. Hate is simply a tangible expression of love for another. If you love your children, you should, if you are a faithful Christian, hate those that would destroy, subvert, and replace your children.

Blogger Glenn Donovan June 05, 2017 12:12 PM  

@Phillip Georges - "Martin Amiss stupefied by relativism", lol. He's a cuck just like the rest. Spoke up a little bit, makes him worse cuz he's a coward who knows better. He's also called for more "female traits in government". And it's "Amis" for the record.

He's books kind of suck too. Well written in the sense that he does know how to turn a phrase and be cleever, but his dour, empire in decline, world weary, cynical and anti-heroic schtick makes every story he tells awful. Forced myself to read a couple of his and they were utterly forgettable. He tries way too hard to be offhandedly profound and mostly fails.

He's pretty much a huge cunt actually.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 05, 2017 12:20 PM  

@70,
"Maybe to hate people, but it is far harder to redirect that hate to the one deserving of it.

Some people willingly become the deceiver's minions and like it. If you wish to know the difference, pray for discernment."

I agree that there are minions of evil for lack of a better descriptor but that doesn't mean I get to ignore the simple and explicit instructions not to hate them. Love provides more awareness and freedom of action which IMO makes fighting evil more effective.

"Again, not about hating that person. When you let a muderer live, who are you loving? The muderer who is allowed to think that his choices in this life have no consequence? Or the future victims of that murderer?"

Who says that you have to let a murderer live? Who says that it's your job to ensure that someone's choices have consequences? Funnily enough though, John 3:15 says that hating a brother or sister makes you a "murderer". It seems like it's not the best strategy to fight murderers by becoming one.

"Sure, pray for his immortal soul as you dispatch him to the only one capable of knowing his heart. You are still conflating hating evil with hating people. You should listen to the episode before you argue with ghosts."

Well, in my defense, I don't know that the episode been posted anywhere yet :). I don't think I've conflated hating people with hating evil. It's fine to hate evil, you just can't hate people (if you're a Christian).

Anonymous Strange Aeons June 05, 2017 1:32 PM  

@ avalanche
Thank you for the link.
I was quite enlightened by the lesson, as expected.

SA

Anonymous Disciple of Kek June 05, 2017 3:33 PM  

Discernment is important here. "Hate" could be simply for self-preservation and prosperity. If one is using hatred to push their dogma on others, or to invade and destroy others (Islam), then it is a hate that goes against life, against nature. Hating evil is like wanting to remove a tumor or cancer- it is for greater prosperity. In this way, hate is just a tool to get to a higher love. Of course, some people start of with a righteous form of hate that they can get carried away with, but that is their own fault.

The whole "love everything" used to resonate with me, as a young dumb idealist. Now, after seeing how some people are really insane and vicious, that it is not only okay to hate them, but a sort of skillful kind of hate that helps us find our own goodness, strength, and virtue.

Anonymous Disciple of Kek June 05, 2017 3:40 PM  

Also, I think people are getting too semantic here.

Hate does not necessarily mean a vile outpouring of uncivilized rage. It can just mean a strong dislike for something bad. Hate can destroy someone, like rage, and that is an unskillful kind of hate. Then there is a type of hate (you can call it something different if that helps, but to me it's not significant) that is rooted in clarity, in peace, in a desire to fight for the good, fight for one's soul, fight for one's family and loved ones, one's nation, and even the good of the world (very different than fighting for the globalist "everyone and everything" by the way).

In Taoism they have the "unity of opposites" - encompassed in the Yin-Yang symbol. To me, this indicates how apparent opposites are actually one. This functions in reality not only as channeling disgust into self-development, proper action, etc., but also people who say nice-sounding things for bad purposes. Again, discernment is key here. As is clarity. Peace everyone~

Blogger Jan Minář June 05, 2017 4:02 PM  

The mainstream culture doesn't know how to forgive, what it means to forgive. I have spent much of my life being eaten away by my hatred for people & things. It is the most vile state a human can be in.

Unhealthy hatred (and as people don't know how to either love or hate, all their love and all their hate is pathological) is indeed evil. And we know that certain people like to project.

Blogger SirHamster June 05, 2017 4:31 PM  

Shawn Hetherington wrote:Who says that you have to let a murderer live? Who says that it's your job to ensure that someone's choices have consequences?

Guess who?

"Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death. However, if it is not done intentionally, but God lets it happen, they are to flee to a place I will designate. But if anyone schemes and kills someone deliberately, that person is to be taken from my altar and put to death."


Shawn Hetherington wrote:It seems like it's not the best strategy to fight murderers by becoming one.

The Gamma tell.

Blogger cheddarman June 05, 2017 5:33 PM  

Excellent podcast

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 05, 2017 5:50 PM  

@102,

"Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death"

You're not following my argument. I'm not saying not to kill people - I'm saying that, as a Christian, you shouldn't hate them while you're doing it. :)

"The Gamma tell. "

Again, you're not paying attention to my argument - you can kill people without becoming a murderer. You just can't hate someone without becoming a murderer(if you want to be a Christian).
http://www.biblestudytools.com/parallel-bible/passage/?q=1-john+3:14-15&t=niv&t2=kjv

Anonymous deplorable June 05, 2017 6:23 PM  

"But if anyone schemes and kills someone deliberately, that person is to be taken from my altar and put to death."

That would include all of the "elite" and most politicians.

Blogger SirHamster June 05, 2017 7:24 PM  

Shawn Hetherington wrote:You're not following my argument. I'm not saying not to kill people - I'm saying that, as a Christian, you shouldn't hate them while you're doing it. :)

You didn't make an argument. You tossed out two rhetorical questions to get to a "seems". I answered the rhetorical questions to destroy the uncertainty you tried to introduce as your premise.

As to your position, you are mixing up the emotional sense of hate, and the act of hate. When you choose to end someone's life, there's no getting around that it is deliberate harm and an act of hate. Hate-less killing is an oxymoron.


Shawn Hetherington wrote:Again, you're not paying attention to my argument - you can kill people without becoming a murderer. You just can't hate someone without becoming a murderer(if you want to be a Christian).

http://www.biblestudytools.com/parallel-bible/passage/?q=1-john+3:14-15&t=niv&t2=kjv


You make a mistake to equate any someone with your brother, and to create a silly concept of deliberate harm that is not hate.

If the verse you point to is only about feelings, you can justify any action as long as you have the right feelings.

"Sure, I pushed him out of the helicopter for no reason, but it doesn't count against me because I didn't have any feelings of hate at that moment!" Nonsense.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 05, 2017 8:10 PM  

@106,

"When you choose to end someone's life, there's no getting around that it is deliberate harm and an act of hate. Hate-less killing is an oxymoron."

No, it really isn't. You can kill or harm someone and still not hate them.

"If the verse you point to is only about feelings, you can justify any action as long as you have the right feelings."

Heh. You are right on the cusp of wisdom here.:)


"Sure, I pushed him out of the helicopter for no reason, but it doesn't count against me because I didn't have any feelings of hate at that moment!" Nonsense. "

Well, this sort of idea doesn't make much sense if you haven't live the effects of this, but, really, do you think it would be easier to kill "someone for no reason" if you loved them?

It is hard to argue this point though, I don't think the idea can be understood intellectually, it just has to be lived.

My suggestion: pick someone you currently hate and try your best to love them and see how your life changes as a result. My prediction: it won't make you weaker or whatever it is you are scared of.

Blogger SirHamster June 05, 2017 8:58 PM  

Shawn Hetherington wrote:"When you choose to end someone's life, there's no getting around that it is deliberate harm and an act of hate. Hate-less killing is an oxymoron."

No, it really isn't. You can kill or harm someone and still not hate them.


So you say. Will the relatives of the dead man agree?

"You took away my daddy!"

"Oh, it's not hate, I killed him with love!"

It's hate. Call the act what it is and justify it, rather than twisting words to mean something else.

God does not shy away from saying he hates the wicked. Neither should the God-fearing Christian.

Heh. You are right on the cusp of wisdom here.:)

You sophistry and emoticons are not wisdom.

Well, this sort of idea doesn't make much sense if you haven't live the effects of this, but, really, do you think it would be easier to kill "someone for no reason" if you loved them?

It is hard to argue this point though, I don't think the idea can be understood intellectually, it just has to be lived.


Easier is irrelevant. Killing someone without reason is hate, even if you had no emotions at that moment. It's a type of murder.

That you can't answer this is because your argument is broken.

My suggestion: ...

No.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 05, 2017 9:46 PM  

@108,

"So you say. Will the relatives of the dead man agree?"

Probably not but what other people think about your feelings doesn't change their reality.

"
God does not shy away from saying he hates the wicked. Neither should the God-fearing Christian. "

Christians are not God and the Bible gives straightforward instructions about how Christians should approach this issue.

"Easier is irrelevant. Killing someone without reason is hate, even if you had no emotions at that moment. It's a type of murder."

Why would anyone kill someone they love for no reason? OTOH, people kill each other all the time for no other reason than they hate them.

Let me ask you a question: why do you think people need to hate in order to kill? Isn't it possible that God could imbue his creations without that requirement? If He didn't do so, why do you think that is the case?

Blogger IreneAthena June 05, 2017 10:25 PM  

People can and do kill intentionally without hating. (1) Prison guards occasionally grow fond of death row inmates. It isn't easy for them to serve as executioners in these cases, but they steel themselves to do what they see as their duty. (2) Cops sometimes have to make hard choices when they draw their guns, and require counseling when a death results. (3) Drone warfare, assembly-line killing from a climate-controlled, completely safe vantage point, becomes routine. One can even become numbed to inflicting torture, if it has become part of the humdrum routine of doing one’s job.

That kind of killing is often done, not out of hatred, godly or otherwise: It's done for a paycheck.

I'm wondering, though, how Shawn Hetherington's advice to "pick someone you hate and try your best to love them" applies to preparing for (or trying to prevent) Civil War levels of bloodletting in an Alt-Right vs. Muslims/SJW’s conflict.

Hatred that you might recommend, Shawn -- and that you could convince a few SJW's to hate that way, too, over a cup of coffee and an open copy of Blowback: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire for instance -- is the hatred of the elitists who created the problem of terrorism and then nurtured, protected and supported its agenda, fomenting chaos in the Muslim world, promoting dictators, stealing land and resources, furthering at all costs their own evil elitist agenda.

Blogger PayliTuzu June 05, 2017 10:39 PM  

"So you say. Will the relatives of the dead man agree?"

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Blogger Lazarus June 05, 2017 10:43 PM  

…13If the home is worthy, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14And if anyone will not welcome you or heed your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.…

More bearable for the areas that were destroyed by fire and brimstone they were so wicked, than for the Jewish town that rejected the gospel.

Think about it. What are the phases in the heirarchy of wickedness?

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 05, 2017 11:20 PM  

@110,

"I'm wondering, though, how Shawn Hetherington's advice to "pick someone you hate and try your best to love them" applies to preparing for (or trying to prevent) Civil War levels of bloodletting in an Alt-Right vs. Muslims/SJW’s conflict. "

Well, I don't have a problem with hating an ideology or evil or whatever, I just try and not hate a person. For instance, I am naturally inclined to hate Hilary Clinton(to pick an example everyone knows). BTW, I am Canadian but I still hate Hilary quite regularly.

I have spent many hours hating Hilary over the last year or so. However, I will periodically try and remember to not hate her and to try and love her as well as I possibly can (as I believe the Bible teaches). My personal experience of this whole process is that allowing hatred full rein makes me more paranoid and desperate (and greedy and manipulative) whereas trying to love her increases my felt sense of understanding and power. Feeling love for her makes me more confident and at ease. I don't transform into someone who is, at all, in favor of her policies or behavior. My personal sense is that I am a much better warrior for my values when I am able feel love for her.

In terms of SJWs, I don't really hate them at all, rather I pity them. They are driven, to my mind, almost exclusively by a need to remain ignorant of the real (ie non-utopian world). Personally, I think that once the truth gets a foothold with them, many former SJWs will be led to become ruthlessly effective opponents of it.

I think Muslims are a more difficult problem ideologically. I can't say I really understand Islam that well. To me, it seems as though, Islam fears the West because it has good reason to. Christianity's over-arching search for Truth has come pretty close to bringing it down and traditional Islam seems much more vulnerable to be much more vulnerable if a similar process began within it. In that context, the militarism and megalomaniacal sides of Islam that seem to be coming to the fore might be unavoidable.

"Hatred that you might recommend, Shawn -- and that you could convince a few SJW's to hate that way, too, over a cup of coffee"
I don't know that I can convince anyone but I do try and tell the truth as much as possible in as loving way as Ipossibly can.

Blogger SirHamster June 05, 2017 11:20 PM  

Shawn Hetherington wrote:Probably not but what other people think about your feelings doesn't change their reality.

You are talking about hate as a feeling. I am not.

Your feelings are not the measure of reality. Are you a woman?

Christians are not God and the Bible gives straightforward instructions about how Christians should approach this issue.

Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

For you to seek otherwise is to disown God as Father.


Let me ask you a question: why do you think people need to hate in order to kill?

I do not think that. Killing is the hate.

You are trying to atomize feeling and will and action, and isolate the feeling of hate as the one bad thing. Taken to its logical conclusion, will and action are irrelevant - good feelings make you good, bad feelings make you bad.

That's nonsense and false teaching.

Blogger IreneAthena June 06, 2017 12:11 AM  

@113 @110
Shawn Hetherington:I don't know that I can convince anyone but I do try and tell the truth as much as possible in as loving way as I possibly can...In terms of SJWs, I don't really hate them at all...Personally, I think that once the truth gets a foothold with them, many former SJWs will be led to become ruthlessly effective opponents of it.

I got the impression that's the way you felt about SJW's. It's how I feel about them, too. That's why I recommended a cup of coffee...WITH the Chalmers. Good luck.

Blogger The Overgrown Hobbit June 06, 2017 12:50 AM  

Finally caught the darkstream. Some good points: thanks.

Blogger JC June 06, 2017 2:18 AM  

I was reading the Catechism last night and by coincidence they had something to say on hate that agreed with your point:

"Liberation in the spirit of the Gospel is incompatible with hatred of one's enemy as a person, but not with hatred of the evil that he does as an enemy."

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1933.htm

There were a couple of other articles I looked through and hatred is only wrong in this context:

"Deliberate hatred is contrary to charity. Hatred of the neighbor is a sin when one deliberately wishes him evil."

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2303.htm



Anonymous I have no idea who owns periscope.tv, but it's a Darkstream June 06, 2017 3:09 AM  

The fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. I had a 4x4 sliding puzzle game with those words I used to pass time in the bathroom before the Nintendo Gameboy.

It is possible to be Christian and embrace hate. Many have; you won't be the first.

But according to Paul's letter to the Galatians, hate doesn't fit in very well with the Spirit.

Now, I'm perfectly willing to be proved wrong. It is possible that Paul was mistaken, and hate is a Christian virtue compliant with the Spirit.

But I wonder: did the Word accommodate for periscope.tv? Is the domain registrar for periscope.tv a prophet?

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable June 06, 2017 3:25 AM  

I have no idea who owns periscope.tv, but it's a Darkstream wrote:But I wonder: did the Word accommodate for periscope.tv? Is the domain registrar for periscope.tv a prophet?

You're silly. That is not how it works. And we have carefully calibrated it in, after also sending a bunch of our kids to be enslaved by the Muslims in the most horrible ways, because our Faith is just that strong.

One extreme and the other. Too bad they don't realize or they would flee.

Anonymous That is not how it works. June 06, 2017 3:30 AM  

SciVo de Plorable wrote:I have no idea who owns periscope.tv, but it's a Darkstream wrote:But I wonder: did the Word accommodate for periscope.tv? Is the domain registrar for periscope.tv a prophet?

You're silly. That is not how it works. And we have carefully calibrated it in, after also sending a bunch of our kids to be enslaved by the Muslims in the most horrible ways, because our Faith is just that strong.

One extreme and the other. Too bad they don't realize or they would flee.


As it happens, Paul was completely ignorant of Muslims.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 06, 2017 10:01 AM  

@114,

"You are talking about hate as a feeling. I am not."

Ok then, I am using the common dictionary definition.

"Your feelings are not the measure of reality. Are you a woman?"

Please don't be obnoxious. Just because your feelings are not the measure of reality doesn't mean that feelings have no reality and that it is possible for you to feel one way even though someone else thinks that you must feel another.

"Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

For you to seek otherwise is to disown God as Father."

You need to be more careful about how you quote Scripture. The portion you quote *in context* is making the exact *opposite* point you are arguing. It agrees with me, IOW.

"I do not think that. Killing is the hate."

Ok, so you are a radical pacifist, then? If you can't kill your enemy without hating them and you can't hate your enemies, therefore you can't kill your enemies. QED. :)

"You are trying to atomize feeling and will and action, and isolate the feeling of hate as the one bad thing. Taken to its logical conclusion, will and action are irrelevant - good feelings make you good, bad feelings make you bad."

Uh, no that's not my position. My position is that feelings affect reality including actions etc... and that having good feelings in your terms causes reality to be better than having bad ones.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 06, 2017 10:05 AM  

Also, I was finally able to watch the Darkstream and I think Vox has made a wrong turn.

What do you do if your enemy is also wicked? If you are allowed/required to hate the wicked and absolutely prohibited from hating your enemy, what do you do if they are both the same person?

Blogger SirHamster June 06, 2017 2:25 PM  

Shawn Hetherington wrote:Ok then, I am using the common dictionary definition.

The Bible wasn't written in common English.

Please don't be obnoxious. Just because your feelings are not the measure of reality doesn't mean that feelings have no reality and that it is possible for you to feel one way even though someone else thinks that you must feel another.

You are obnoxious. If you are a woman, you have an excuse. If not ...

You need to be more careful about how you quote Scripture. The portion you quote *in context* is making the exact *opposite* point you are arguing. It agrees with me, IOW.

You said Man is not God, and thus is not allowed to hate the wicked.

My point with the quote is that God's children are commanded to imitate their Father. The opposite point is that God's children are not commanded to imitate their Father.

You need to not lie about what Scripture says.


Ok, so you are a radical pacifist, then? If you can't kill your enemy without hating them and you can't hate your enemies, therefore you can't kill your enemies. QED. :)

I am not a pacifist. I do not believe that a Christian cannot hate his enemies. There is no such thing as loving war, whether it is up close and personal with swords and clubs, or mechanized slaughter with bombs and bullets.

But even as the Christian plans and executes effective destruction on the enemies of his nation, he is still commanded to love them. How? To wage war justly, with mercy.


Uh, no that's not my position. My position is that feelings affect reality including actions etc... and that having good feelings in your terms causes reality to be better than having bad ones.

Good feelings make you good, what I just said.

"If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?"

Except they don't. Good feelings can inspire good words ... but without good actions, they are meaningless tingles.

Blogger SirHamster June 06, 2017 2:36 PM  

Shawn Hetherington wrote:If you are allowed/required to hate the wicked and absolutely prohibited from hating your enemy, what do you do if they are both the same person?

There is no absolute prohibition of hating your enemy.

Also, I was finally able to watch the Darkstream and I think Vox has made a wrong turn.

It figures that you are not interested in listening before opining.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 06, 2017 3:25 PM  

@123,

"The Bible wasn't written in common English."

Yes, but the fact that you are using a different definition than mine, doesn't affect the validity of *my* argument.

"You said Man is not God, and thus is not allowed to hate the wicked.

My point with the quote is that God's children are commanded to imitate their Father. The opposite point is that God's children are not commanded to imitate their Father."

Christians are not allowed to hate their enemies because they are specifically prohibited from doing that in the same section of the Bible *that you quoted to me*. To not explain your quote in that context tells everything we need to know.

"I am not a pacifist. I do not believe that a Christian cannot hate his enemies."

I see - so you are the kind of Christian who can ignore Scripture when it suits him. :)

"Except they don't. Good feelings can inspire good words ... but without good actions, they are meaningless tingles."

Are you sure that you are a Christian? YOu don't sound like one.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13&version=NLT

Blogger SirHamster June 06, 2017 3:51 PM  

Shawn Hetherington wrote:Yes, but the fact that you are using a different definition than mine, doesn't affect the validity of *my* argument.

The validity of your argument depends on you correctly applying Biblical truth. If your concept of hate deviates from the Biblical usage, then your conclusions are incorrect.

Christians are not allowed to hate their enemies because they are specifically prohibited from doing that in the same section of the Bible *that you quoted to me*.

Cite the specific prohibition, then. I cited Scripture to support my position but you have not.

To not explain your quote in that context tells everything we need to know.

Back up your assertion that such a context exists. If you do not, you are a false witness about what Scripture says. God hates lying tongues and false witnesses that pour out lies.

"I am not a pacifist. I do not believe that a Christian cannot hate his enemies."

I see - so you are the kind of Christian who can ignore Scripture when it suits him. :)


Back up your empty assertions before making accusations, liar.

"Except they don't. Good feelings can inspire good words ... but without good actions, they are meaningless tingles."

Are you sure that you are a Christian? YOu don't sound like one.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13&version=NLT


Personal attacks instead of addressing the argument? You are obnoxious and you are not acting like a Christian.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 06, 2017 4:21 PM  

@126,
"The validity of your argument depends on you correctly applying Biblical truth. If your concept of hate deviates from the Biblical usage, then your conclusions are incorrect."

If you have support for your definition of hate, feel free to offer it.

"Cite the specific prohibition, then. I cited Scripture to support my position but you have not. "

You cited Scripture *deceiptfully* to make the opposite point that your Scripture was making. For anyone that is curious, you can verify this by reading Hamster's quote in context Matthew 5:44-48.

"Back up your assertion that such a context exists. If you do not, you are a false witness about what Scripture says. God hates lying tongues and false witnesses that pour out lie"

We'll see who's lying - 2 questions - What does Matthew 5:44 say? What verse did you quote at me?

"Back up your empty assertions before making accusations, liar."

See above. Pretending you didn't know this is ridiculous - it's right above the section you quoted.


"Personal attacks instead of addressing the argument? You are obnoxious and you are not acting like a Christian. "

I said you don't seem like a Christian because you don't - a Christian would never say that love was just a meaningless tingle.

Blogger SirHamster June 06, 2017 4:34 PM  

Shawn Hetherington wrote:"Back up your assertion that such a context exists. If you do not, you are a false witness about what Scripture says. God hates lying tongues and false witnesses that pour out lie"

We'll see who's lying - 2 questions - What does Matthew 5:44 say? What verse did you quote at me?


Who is this "we"?

Asking a question about a verse is not backing up your assertion. Backing up your assertion requires QUOTING the context and INTERPRETING it.

But you aren't doing that, only posturing. The verses in question command love, but do not prohibit hate. You said hate is absolutely prohibited, which is untrue.

You bear false witness, and your pride resists correction.

I said you don't seem like a Christian because you don't - a Christian would never say that love was just a meaningless tingle.

I didn't say love was a meaningless tingle.

Why are you lying?

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 06, 2017 5:27 PM  

@128,
"Asking a question about a verse is not backing up your assertion. Backing up your assertion requires QUOTING the context and INTERPRETING it."

Matthew 5 43:48
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers,[a] what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A43-48&version=ESV

I don't really see the point of interpreting this verse 44 says it all IMO. In case you didn't know verse 48 was the line you quoted to me.

Blogger SirHamster June 06, 2017 5:38 PM  

Shawn Hetherington wrote:I don't really see the point of interpreting this verse 44 says it all IMO. In case you didn't know verse 48 was the line you quoted to me.

Where in that context does it absolutely prohibit hating your enemy?

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 06, 2017 5:57 PM  

@130,

Matthew 5:44 says you should love your enemies and Matthew 5:48 says that you should (in context) be perfect in loving your enemies.

Blogger SirHamster June 06, 2017 6:36 PM  

@131 Does perfect love of your enemy include killing him?

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 06, 2017 6:39 PM  

@131,

It can, IMO.

Blogger SirHamster June 06, 2017 7:12 PM  

Is the difference between killing with love and killing with hate the feelings you have when you swing the blade or pull the trigger?

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 06, 2017 7:33 PM  

@134,

Well, I don't really want to get into what a "feeling" is but, IMO, the external actions could be exactly the same when you were killing with love as when you are killing with hate.

Blogger SirHamster June 06, 2017 7:48 PM  

That extends to charitable acts too, right?

If your enemy is hungry and you give him something to eat, you can give him food with love, or with hate.

Same external action, only difference is the internal state.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 06, 2017 7:53 PM  

Sure that's true. I'm not sure that many people give out of outright hate but, it is IMO not very Christian to give in order to make yourself look charitable.

Blogger SirHamster June 06, 2017 8:14 PM  

Shawn Hetherington wrote:IMO not very Christian to give in order to make yourself look charitable.

How are you getting pride from hate gifts?

Your model is broken. I recommend replacing it, but that would require you to care for accuracy.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 06, 2017 8:33 PM  

??? I said that people can give to make themselves look good instead of giving out of love. I'm not sure how you get anything about "hate gifts" from that.

Blogger SirHamster June 06, 2017 8:52 PM  

I am the one who gave you the scenario of hate gifts. Ex: Feeding a hungry enemy hatefully.

You changed the scenario's motivation from hate to "looking good" (pride) rather than deal with the scenario as is.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 06, 2017 8:56 PM  

??? I agreed that the external view of giving out of love and out of hate are the same. I just didn't think that was very common so I gave another example that I thought was more plausible where the externals were the same but the internals were different. That's not me changing the scenario it's just adding a bit more detail of the general principle.

Blogger Michael Maier June 06, 2017 11:16 PM  

SN wrote:VD makes some pretty good points here, but it's a hard pill to swallow.

It helps VD's case that everyone opposing him have to rely on weak emotional arguments though.

Still, pretty hard pill.


And yet, Vox' words that "Man is not a rational creature, but a rationalizing one" sure come to mind when he starts in (heh) theology.

Mind you, my nature says evil people should be shot in the face. But I think we're called to be more loving than that.

Anonymous glosoli June 07, 2017 1:41 PM  

Impartial observer awards the debate trophy to Sir Hamster.
It fizzled out at the end, so I declare the winner.

The reason:

'There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17
haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18
a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19
a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.'

God hates evil people, the person, not merely the deed. We should strive to do the same. To do otherwise is to be indifferent. If they repent, then they can be loved.

Stick with God and his entire bible and you won't go wrong. DOn't allow your feminine side to turn you into a lover-of-all.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 07, 2017 4:01 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 07, 2017 4:05 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 07, 2017 4:13 PM  

@143,

You're argument would make total sense if there was no such thing as a New Testament. I don't see any difference between what you're arguing for and what the Hebrews believe.

Anonymous glosoli June 07, 2017 7:05 PM  

Accept your loss like a man.
Well played Sir Hamster.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 07, 2017 7:27 PM  

Well, you're not God so you don't get to what the Truth is :)

I notice that you can't disagree with my point at all.

Blogger SirHamster June 08, 2017 12:56 PM  

glosoli wrote:Well played Sir Hamster.

Appreciate the hat tip.

Shawn Hetherington wrote:I notice that you can't disagree with my point at all.

You confused "didn't" with "can't".

Anonymous glosoli June 08, 2017 3:39 PM  

Your patient and coherent arguments were well put, and this whole issue was new to me, as indeed is my faith, so it was very helpful to read.

He is very confused, mistaking 'you're' for 'your', and omitting the word 'decide' from his sentence (but remembering the smiley face).

He wrote: 'My position is that feelings affect reality'.

I suspect his 'feelings' are affecting the position of letters on his keyboard, a fair excuse in his world.

But I pray he will see the Lord's truth.

Blogger Shawn Hetherington June 08, 2017 5:42 PM  

Heh. I will apologize for my typing yesterday - I was feeling quite a bit under the weather - I've been fighting the flu.

I don't think that my position is that hard to follow though. If anyone has questions or rebuttals, feel free to offer them.

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