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Sunday, June 11, 2017

Mailvox: this church is not dead

A reader emails to confirm that the Southern Baptists are not necessarily impressed by proposed SBC resolutions:
I am member of a Southern Baptist church in Arizona, a small church whose pastor delivers spiritually meaty sermons with isn't afraid to tell people unpleasant truths.  Your articles on the resolution directed against the Alt-Right and nationalism had me worried, as I have no desire to see my church or those like us converged.  I went to church today praying for the right words to talk to my pastor about this issue.

After the sermon, my fears have been quelled, as shades of the Alt-Right were present throughout it.  Our pastor talked about nations, not about some vague global community.  He spoke in favor of using mockery against the enemies of God and the modern false prophets.  He warned against letting political correctness stop us from defending the Gospel.  He even used the words "I don't care" in regards to those who disagree with him on national-spiritual matters, which brought a smile to my face.

I don't know how this resolution will play out and what it means for Southern Baptists as a whole, but I do know now that we aren't all lost. Thank you for the community you provide at your blog.
Remember, no matter how bad things get, the battle isn't over and there is no reason to accept defeat. Only two numbers matter, 2 and 12. Because one plus one is three and all we need are twelve.

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59 Comments:

Blogger SteelPalm June 11, 2017 6:31 PM  

Indeed, it's always heartening to read about institutions, especially religious ones, resisting convergence.

one plus one is three

I admit I don't understand the reference.

Blogger Midnight Avenue J June 11, 2017 6:33 PM  

The mystery of the Holy Trinity, SteelPalm

Blogger VD June 11, 2017 6:34 PM  

I admit I don't understand the reference.

One plus one plus one is also four. Perhaps that helps.

Blogger kurt9 June 11, 2017 6:35 PM  

There is another reason why the alt-right needs to save Christianity (in the U.S.) from the "Churchian" multi-culti types. Phillip Jenkins wrote several books about 10 years ago where he described the emergence of a "Southern" Christianity in both Latin America and Africa (primarily Africa) that will be very different and largely unrecognizable to traditional American Christians. All three of these books discussed the "syncretic" nature of African Christianity as it evolves on the continent. In this, "syncretic" means Christianity with African characteristics, sort of like Socialism with Chinese characteristics. Its fair to say that we have a vested interest in keeping such a thing outside the West once it evolves, say around 2040.

Blogger SteelPalm June 11, 2017 6:36 PM  

Ah, yes! I've read the New Testament, but somehow missed that.

Blogger Mocheirge June 11, 2017 6:38 PM  

"For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them." Matt 18:20

Believer + Believer = 2 Believers and Jesus

Blogger Cecil Henry June 11, 2017 6:44 PM  

Well, I for one would not take your minsters word for it until he explicitly spells out the issues.


SJW progressive are notorious for obfuscating their meaning to hide it and manipulate. So I would not trust a few 'well chosen phrases' from the pulpit alone.

I've seen that before: its modus operandi for liberals.

Anonymous Didas Kalos June 11, 2017 6:47 PM  

One plus God is a majority.

Anonymous Didas Kalos June 11, 2017 6:48 PM  

Yes.

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable June 11, 2017 6:58 PM  

Three words: autonomous local churches. Pretty hard to converge thousands of them. Converging a denomination seems an easier task.

Anonymous Didas Kalos June 11, 2017 6:59 PM  

Found this. Isaiah 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time.

Anonymous Darwin Is a Harsh Mistress but a Cheap Date June 11, 2017 7:01 PM  

I think I'll go for a walk. I feel happy! happy!

Blogger ZhukovG June 11, 2017 7:09 PM  

Each Southern Baptist church is technically independent, which provides some degree of resilience. However, they tend to get their Head Pastors, Assistant Pastors, Youth Ministers, Music Ministers, Outreach Ministers, Lavatory Hygiene Minister, etc... from a relatively limited pool of seminaries.

The fact that resolutions of this nature are even being proposed, and other odious resolutions have passed before, suggests that the area of Leftist attack is at the ministerial supply points.

Blogger Cataline Sergius June 11, 2017 7:14 PM  

Here's my two cents worth.

Avoid mega-churches. If you can't recognize every member of your congregation then your church is too big.

A church is many things.

So many, many things.

And one of them is...

"For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them."

The words are not complicated and they are not meant to be.

Blogger Bobo Bell June 11, 2017 7:16 PM  

I once left a church for creating the position of Minister of Social Justice.

Blogger bethyada June 11, 2017 7:28 PM  

I suspect the last reference is about growing by having children.

Blogger bethyada June 11, 2017 7:28 PM  

I suspect the last reference is about growing by having children.

Blogger Cinco June 11, 2017 7:54 PM  

I can second this reader's response. My church this morning spoke of nations as well. Hope is alive.

Blogger lowercaseb June 11, 2017 8:02 PM  

Bobo Bell wrote:I once left a church for creating the position of Minister of Social Justice.

Seriously? Wow! I would have stayed just to write my first and only newsletter for that new congregation:

MiniSocJus malquoted ++ungood ref unpersons "Jesus Christ" rectify oldthinkful crimethink. rewrite fullwise.

Anonymous The Original Arrogant Penguins Fan June 11, 2017 8:04 PM  

Apparently white pride festivals aren't dead either. What came over Nashville? Is the NHL the new NASCAR?

Just saying...

Blogger Sterling Pilgrim June 11, 2017 8:05 PM  

Before anyone goes renouncing a denomination, let's try to remember that the ideas of the leadership does not equal the thoughts of the Body (the members who fill the pews).

Blogger Sterling Pilgrim June 11, 2017 8:06 PM  

I will say, my preacher today was speaking on Marriage, but did a freaking circus gymnast maneuver to make sure all the "singles" out there understood that they were awesome too. I almost threw up. He should be requiring all newly married couples to have two kids a year for three years.

Anonymous DonReynolds June 11, 2017 8:12 PM  

I will say it again.
The easiest way to avoid the draft during the Vietnam conflict was to switch your major to divinity. Actually going to divinity school was a free pass and a good many did exactly that.

When they got out of school with divinity degrees and need a job, what do they do? They become ordained ministers and get picked up by one of the churches. Forty years later, we are still paying a high price for that simple historical fact. The Leftist anti-war protesters that did not flee to Canada now people the upper levels of many church organizations and the convergence of the churches themselves is only the small part of what we pay.

OpenID archerfisher21 June 11, 2017 8:12 PM  

New assassin's creed gameplay is out from the latest... ancient Egypt, black hero. The comments are gold. One hour old and 354 likes, "WE WUZ KANGS N SHIET"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX0fd4q0baQ

Blogger Thucydides June 11, 2017 8:20 PM  

A thousand autonomous churches is exactly the sort of "Breaking the network" operation to destroy or limit the reach of the networks of finance and influence the SJW's, cultural marxists etc. have build over the decades. A "Converged Baptist Conference" with no actual churches or denominations underneath it won't last very long.

Blogger Wolfman at Large June 11, 2017 8:34 PM  

@20 America loves a winner regardless of what is being won.

Anonymous Ages June 11, 2017 8:46 PM  

OT if our host doesn't mind — Thoughts on the Puerto Rico vote? They voted today overwhelmingly (97%) in favor of statehood.

This would not affect our demographics, as PRans are already US citizens and can travel throughout the country at will. The downside is more Democrat-aligned votes in Congress.

I do have a sense that it's wrong to deny PR-ans equal representation in Congress, even bad representation, as US citizens if they are entitled to it. I mean, if they want independence, fantastic, but if not, I think they should get statehood if they want it.

If nothing else, it should teach us that imperialism is a losing prospect for any country interested in maintaining its native population pure.

Blogger VD June 11, 2017 8:52 PM  

Before anyone goes renouncing a denomination, let's try to remember that the ideas of the leadership does not equal the thoughts of the Body (the members who fill the pews).

You're wrong. The declarations of the leadership are the sole basis for judging a denomination. If the members permit them to speak for them, they are complicit. And cowardly.

Blogger the bandit June 11, 2017 8:57 PM  

As I just commented on the first post on this topic, all churches of the type described in this post should coordinate, fill their messenger slots to next year's convention, and throw the cucks out.

Anonymous HoosierHillbilly June 11, 2017 9:23 PM  

@25 No, dang it. Small independent churches are how we started and how we can end. That is ALWAYS an option for the Church. Let's not abandon the ship our forefathers spent years building just cause we found rats in the hold. Let's purge the rats.

Anonymous Marvin Boggs June 11, 2017 9:24 PM  

@22: not sure if you're trying to be humerous. If not, I'd like to point out that human gestation is 9 months (give or take), so even one pregnancy per year is a very solid pace for any woman.

Anonymous HoosierHillbilly June 11, 2017 9:28 PM  

I saw this happen in my denomination. Sat there and watched. The battle is still on. No time for retreat yet. The parasites are out for the money of the faithful. Let us deny them that their kind cannot grow fat and spread their disease on our corpses.

Blogger Lazarus June 11, 2017 10:47 PM  

Marvin Boggs wrote:@22: not sure if you're trying to be humerous. If not, I'd like to point out that human gestation is 9 months (give or take), so even one pregnancy per year is a very solid pace for any woman.

Twins and triplets, more bang for the buck.

Blogger Matthew June 11, 2017 10:49 PM  

Sterling Pilgrim wrote:Before anyone goes renouncing a denomination, let's try to remember that the ideas of the leadership does not equal the thoughts of the Body (the members who fill the pews).

Cuck.

Blogger Matthew June 11, 2017 10:52 PM  

Before any man goes divorcing his wife, let's try to remember that her dalliances with other men do not mean you're raising a tare.

OpenID cyrus83 June 11, 2017 11:06 PM  

The big problem for the various denominations out there is that most have strayed to some degree from Christian morality, particularly as regards sex. While not all have converged into complete fruitcake status like the Episcopalians, any denomination or church that has bought into any part of the sexual revolution is on the road to ending up at the same place the Episcopalians are now in terms of women pastors, effeminate Kumbaya religion, and the whole LGBT thing. Key items to gauge health - are the divorced and remarried welcome? Will the pastor marry those who have been married before?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 11, 2017 11:37 PM  

cyrus83 wrote:Key items to gauge health - are the divorced and remarried welcome? Will the pastor marry those who have been married before?
Even easier;
Look around at the service. How many 20-somethings have kids? How many have more than 2? how many 30-somethings have 4 or more?
Any congregation that is not fertile is not being blessed by God. They have rejected God's generosity and substituted their own desire for God's blessing.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash June 11, 2017 11:38 PM  

And that means their own kids, not someone else's. Trophy adoptions are right out.

Blogger Lazarus June 11, 2017 11:42 PM  

Sterling Pilgrim wrote:Before anyone goes renouncing a denomination, let's try to remember that the ideas of the leadership does not equal the thoughts of the Body (the members who fill the pews).


Numbers 25New English Translation (NET Bible)
Israel’s Sin with the Moabite Women

25 When Israel lived in Shittim, the people began to commit sexual immorality with the daughters of Moab. 2 These women invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods; then the people ate and bowed down to their gods. 3 When Israel joined themselves to Baal-peor, the anger of the Lord flared up against Israel.
God’s Punishment

4 The Lord said to Moses, “Arrest all the leaders of the people, and hang them up before the Lord in broad daylight, so that the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel.” 5 So Moses said to the judges of Israel, “Each of you must execute those of his men who were joined to Baal-peor.”

6 Just then one of the Israelites came and brought to his brothers a Midianite woman in the plain view of Moses and of the whole community of the Israelites, while they were weeping at the entrance of the tent of meeting. 7 When Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he got up from among the assembly, took a javelin in his hand, 8 and went after the Israelite man into the tent and thrust through the Israelite man and into the woman’s abdomen. So the plague was stopped from the Israelites. 9 Those that died in the plague were 24,000.

The leaders must die that the people may live.

Oh, by the way, the Israelite man and Moabite woman were thrust thru while they were fornicating, in case it was NOT clear.

And Phineas was a Nubian.

Blogger Francis Parker Yockey June 12, 2017 2:31 AM  

@Ages
"OT if our host doesn't mind — Thoughts on the Puerto Rico vote?"

It's wrong to continue to hold back the Puerto Ricans, to force them to continue to suffer under the heavy yoke of racist oppression and systemic imperialism. We must give them their freedom. It is completely unfair to further victimize the subaltern peoples of this island, by forcing them into an unwanted association with the white supreemist mainland government. We cannot allow the internalized racism reflected in this recent vote to hold us back from doing the right thing. Puerto Rico must be free!

Blogger Doom June 12, 2017 3:08 AM  

Damn straight it isn't over. It is fine to be discouraged, that is half the gig here, at least now. As with fear, no choice sometimes. Just don't let that win. Just as with zero being falsely placed as president, or this pope being a fraud one way or another, neither changes what I am. They only indicate symptoms of the problem. They can't have my nationalism or faith, both are actually God things.

Oh... "one plus one is three"? So... you ARE trinitarian! (Well, can't help but try.)

Blogger The Kurgan June 12, 2017 3:08 AM  

No. Wherevere two Christians are, they are joined by God.
And I just got baptised a couple of weeks ago. Truly the current knowledge of supposed Christians is pathetic.

Blogger Doom June 12, 2017 3:17 AM  

T.K., 42,

That... was a joke. I know about the, where two or more gather... bit. Chill. You definitely are a noob. Hmm, one might even say you are still wet behind the ears. Literally. I've read the N.T. six times, the O.T. three. Through and through, no cherry-picking. Then again, to be honest, that doesn't... it isn't enough. Gotta eat it, and, well, limits and fallen world.

Blogger The Kurgan June 12, 2017 3:40 AM  

You're wrong. The declarations of the leadership are the sole basis for judging a denomination. If the members permit them to speak for them, they are complicit. And cowardly.

In general I agree, however, given human nature, I see this leading only to eventual incessant splintering. Example: The Catholic Church as currently led by Bergoglio is a completely converged, apostatic heresy of glorified Churchianity, and should be seen as such and declared as such, but part of the reason it achieved as much as it did in the past, including repelling the Muslims was due to the fact that it's leadership and rules went largely unquestioned for many centuries, allowing it ultimately to spread the gospel all over the world.
Individually I agree, but in terms of practical effects of Christianity on the world, there is some value in being humble and going along with even somewhat imperfect leadership since none ever will be perfect.

Blogger Freddy June 12, 2017 5:13 AM  

By what standard?

Blogger Freddy June 12, 2017 5:20 AM  

By what authority? Home school, home church, home cult. Yes, it goes there without a fixed standard. Let's not concern ourselves with the minutia

Anonymous republican mother June 12, 2017 7:48 AM  

Southern Baptist Churches are by definition legally autonomous. The way the SBC controls them, however, is with the literature. Every SBC Sunday School class in America will be reading off one of a few SBC approved scripts. The SS teacher (facilitator) will read the leader manual and ask the pre selected questions. Many younger SBC pastors just do a John Piper impersonation. Lifeway, which used to be the mere publishing house for the convention, is a huge outfit and they will market and hype this book and that conference, making all these officially independent churches all reading the same material and going to the same events. Even VBS is prescripted in packages sold by Lifeway.

The biggest problem in the SBC is calvinism. They sneak in acting conservative and then it begins. These Young Restless and Reformed types are the same bunch of cucks trying to get the good ol' boys to take down their rebel flags and write stupid resolutions.

I've always been a KJV Baptist personally because those churches are fairly cuck- resistant. However, you do run into the founding fathers are equivalent to the 12 apostle mind-set with that bunch.

I'm personally investigating the unchurch movement as I can't find the local church model as it is in my Bible.

Anonymous republican mother June 12, 2017 7:56 AM  

Nashvillian here. Tennesse fans are insane. When the Vols were winning, I once remember the grocery store selling alligator meat with the sign, "Got Gator?" in preparation for a Florida game.

They will paint their sheds, cars and wear a full orange suit to church on Sunday if the win.

But they won't support a loser. The Cubs would never make it here. So yes, hockey is really the new football. Our football has been disappointing for so long, that this hockey thing is a like a godsend for them. Everyone down here is wearing a Preds Jersey but me. Moms, every cashier you meet, little dogs, etc. Cars are festooned with Preds flags.

If tiddlywinks became a national sport, they'd go crazy for that to, but only for a winning team.

Blogger Student in Blue June 12, 2017 9:57 AM  

@47. republican mother
I'm personally investigating the unchurch movement as I can't find the local church model as it is in my Bible.

I looked up 'unchurch' and one of the first things that popped up was a blog called "livingwaterunity", where they were trying to explain why they called themselves an 'un-church'.

If that blog is representative of the unchurch movement, then I'm writing off the whole thing.

"The point is that many people carry a lot of confusing baggage about "church". The creation of an ‘un-church' gives us the opportunity to lay aside this old baggage and reconsider what we would like our spiritual community to be. Each of us is a unique being. We need to find God in our own unique ways. The 'un-church’ denotes we have created a special place and a special community where your own unique path to God is valued."

The concept of "your own unique path to God" is entirely at odds with Jesus who is THE Way, and The Only Way.

Blogger Matamoros June 12, 2017 12:40 PM  

An SJW screed against the Faith:

The Racist God of America
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfundamentalistchristians/2017/06/racist-god-america/

She runs a blog laughingly entitled: http://notyourwhitejesus.org

Blogger Matamoros June 12, 2017 12:46 PM  

@47 republican mother I can't find the local church model as it is in my Bible.

You need to go a bit further and look into history. The early Church had bishops, priests, hierarchy, the eucharist, and formal service, etc.

For ex: read the Didache and then with that understanding read the Bible and you will have more understanding.

Blogger Doom June 12, 2017 2:36 PM  

republican mother wrote:I'm personally investigating the unchurch movement as I can't find the local church model as it is in my Bible.

Uh-hrm... The problem with finding the church in the bible is that the bible was created by the church. There are... foundations, pillars, principles, laws, truths, in the book, but the Word was and is God, which first was, of course, God. Then became the people of God. Then the written words. Then that all over again, as the Jews fell. So... Christ is in there, but the church... well... save as the followers, and pro and prescriptions...

I gave myself a headache. I hope that made some sense though.

Blogger Seth Schueler June 12, 2017 3:09 PM  

I looked up the 1+1=3 proof, it looked convincing, but I showed it to my friend and he pointed out that it requires dividing by 0 to work.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper June 12, 2017 4:58 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:cyrus83 wrote:Key items to gauge health - are the divorced and remarried welcome? Will the pastor marry those who have been married before?

Even easier;

Look around at the service. How many 20-somethings have kids? How many have more than 2? how many 30-somethings have 4 or more?

Any congregation that is not fertile is not being blessed by God. They have rejected God's generosity and substituted their own desire for God's blessing.


I was in Utah quite recently. There are well behaved healthy White children everywhere. Families with two, three, four occasionally more young children. Lots of kids and oddcly a shortage of labor as well. Even St. George which is Californicated in many ways and a retirement hot spot had solid numbers of kids.

Apparently if this is the case doctrine aside God likes the Mormons pretty well.

Here in California, even the Mexicans aren't having kids right now and the baby boomlet from 2007 is long long gone.

In Southern Texas, the Priest of the Parish some folks in my circle attend when in the region , a good mentally and spiritually healthy man of the formerly married Anglican sort has spoken repeatedly about the low fertility in his White and Hispanic congregation

You don't expect low fertility among Texas Catholics

Anonymous republican mother June 12, 2017 11:28 PM  

I will definitely take your advice on some new reading material. From my studies, it looks as though persecution stopped when the church became sufficiently institutionalized so as to control it. Vernon McGee said the church began in the home and will end in the home.

Anonymous republican mother June 12, 2017 11:45 PM  

That blog is retarded. Look up Richard Jacobson or Paul Dohse for a new perspective

paulspassingthoughts.com

Its a home fellowship model that these gentlemen promote, and make the point that there is less passivity and more community when put away the greco-roman forum style of church building.

Anonymous republican mother June 12, 2017 11:51 PM  

Total sense. Church in the Greek means the called out ones. Individual people make a church community. We are living stones and Christ is the Cornerstone-not the New Age capstone.

A famous quote is that when the church went to Greece it became a philosophy, to Rome it became an institution, to Europe it became a culture and when it came to America it became an enterprise. We are here I suppose.

Anonymous Anonymous June 15, 2017 12:10 PM  

If you want to read a blog for and by high ranking officials of SBC, Google for Sbc voices and you will find it.

They do not tolerate much in the way of disagreement, so don't bother to post comments. But, there is a lot of reading there if you want more information.

And, not commenting means they won't shut off access behind a log-in firewall.

Anonymous age 75

Anonymous Anonymous June 15, 2017 12:20 PM  

By the way, be sure you understand why the SBC was formed many years ago. The national Baptist Council came out strongly against slavery.
The Baptist churches in the south resented this, and formed the SBC so they were not against slavery. Check it out.

Anonymous age 75

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