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Friday, July 07, 2017

On the restoration of paganism

It's not uncommon to hear atheists and other unbelievers who wish to defend Christendom, but do so without Christianity, suggesting that perhaps a return to European paganism is an option for replacing what is now the obvious failure of godless secularism. This selection from the 1911 edition of the Cambridge Medieval History series, Volume I, should suffice to indicate why that will not work. When even an intelligent emperor with an excellent character and all the imperial power of Rome could not suffice, the wistful yearnings of a few poorly-educated neopagans will not either. 

There is only one solution, and that is the repentance and cleansing of the European churches leading to a Christian revival and a new Crusade. If you seek to defeat the resurgent Paynim and their globalist enablers, you must embrace Deus Vult and the Church Militant. Western civilization is the combination of the European nations, the Graeco-Roman legacy, and Christianity. It cannot survive  - it cannot exist - without any of those three elements.

One feature of Julian's attempt to make the worship of the gods the universal and privileged religion of the Empire is too characteristic of the age to be entirely passed over. In the opening pages of this chapter, in which the living paganism of the third and fourth centuries is briefly described, it is shewn that the old official worships of Greece and Rome lingered as mere simulacra and that the real religious life of the times was fed by Oriental faiths which had introduced such thoughts as redemption, salvation, purification, the Way of Return, etc. It is not too much to say that whatever of the old pagan piety remained in the middle of'the fourth century had attached itself to the worship of the Mysteries ; and that pious men, if educated, looked on the different initiations and rites of purification taught in the various cults to be ways of attaining the same redemption, or finding the same Way of Return. Julian belonged to his age. He was a pure-hearted and deeply pious man. His piety was in a real sense heart religion, and, like that of his contemporaries, clothed itself in the cult of the Mysteries ; while his nervous, sensitive character inclined him personally to the theurgic or magical side of the cult, and especially to what reproduced the old Dionysiac ecstasy. Hence the dominating thought in Julian's mind was to reform the whole public worship of paganism by impregnating it with the real piety and heart religion of the Mysteries cult. The one thing really reactionary in the movement he contemplated was the return to the worship of the old official deities, but he proposed to attempt this in a way which can only be called revolutionary. He endeavoured to put life into the old rituals by bringing to their aid and quickening them with that sincere fervour which the Mysteries cult demanded from its votaries.

This is what makes Julian such an interesting figure in the history of paganism; while it in part accounts for his complete failure to do what he attempted. He tried to unite two things which had utterly separate roots, whose ideals were different, and which could not easily blend. For the religion of the Mysteries was essentially a private cult, into which men and women were received, one by one, by rites of initiation which each had to pass through personally, and, when admitted, they became members of coteries, large or small, of like-minded persons. They had entered because their souls had craved something which they believed the initiations and purifications would give. It was a common saying among them that as sickness of the body needed medicine, so the sickness of the soul required those rites to which they submitted. What had this to do with the courteous recognition due to bright celestial beings which was the central thought of the official religion of Greece, or the punctilious performance of ceremonies which was believed to propitiate the sterner deities of Rome ? Mysteries and participation in their rites may exist along with a belief in the necessity and religious value of the public services of a state religion; but whenever the latter can only be justified, even by its own votaries, on the ground of traditional and patriotic propriety, Mystery worship may take its place but can never quicken it. When the whole piety of paganism disappeared in the Mysteries cult, it estranged itself from the national and official religion; and the Mysteries could never be used to recall the gods of Olympus for whose banishment they had been largely responsible.

No edicts of an Emperor could change the bright deities of Olympus into saviours, or transform their careless votaries into men who felt in their hearts the need of redemption and a way of return. Yet that was what Julian had to do when he proposed to impregnate the old official worship with the fervour of the Mysteries cult. It was equally in vain to think that the Mysteries cult, which owed its power to its spontaneity, to its independence, to its individuality, could be drilled and organised into the national religion of a great Empire. It was a true instinct that led Julian to see that the real and living pagan piety of his generation had taken refuge within the circles of the Mysteries, and that the hope of paganism lay in the spread of the fervour which kindled their votaries; his mistake lay in thinking that it could be used to requicken the official worship. It would have been better for his designs had he acted as did Vettius Agorius Praetextatus, the model of genuine pagan piety in the Roman senatorial circle (princeps religiosorum, Macrobius calls him). Praetextatus contented himself with a dignified and cool recognition of the official deities of Rome but sought outlet for his piety elsewhere, in initiations at Eleusis and other places and in the purifying rite of the taurobolium. The sentimental side of Julian's nature led him astray. He could not forget his early studies in Homer and Hesiod (he quotes Homer as frequently and as fervently as a contemporary Christian does the Holy Scriptures) and he had to introduce the gods of Olympus somewhere. He tried to unite the passionate Oriental worships with the dignified Greek and the grave Roman ceremonies where personal faith was superfluous. The elements were too incongruous.

In spite of all the signs of a reaction against Christianity Julian failed; and for himself the tragedy of his failure lay in the apathy of his co-religionists. In spite of his elaborate treatise against Christianity and his other writings; notwithstanding his public orations and his private persuasions, Julian did not succeed in making many converts. We hear of no Christians of mark who embraced Hellenism, save the rhetorician Hecebolius and Pegasius, a bishop with a questionable past. The Emperor boasted that his Hellenism made some progress in the army, but at his death the legions selected a Christian successor.

It is almost pathetic to read Julian's accounts of his continual disappointments. He could not find in "all Cappadocia a single man who was a true Hellenist." They did not care to offer sacrifice, and those who_did so, did not know how. In Galatia, at Pessinus where stood a famous temple erected to the Great Mother, he had to bribe and threaten the inhabitants to do honour to the goddess. At Beroea he harangued the municipal council on the duty of worshipping the gods. "They all warmly praised my discourse," he says somewhat sadly, "but none were convinced by it save the few who were convinced before hearing." So it was wherever he went. Even pagan admirers like Ammianus Marcellinus were rather bored with the Emperor's Hellenism and thought the whole thing a devout imagination not worth the trouble he wasted on it. The senatorial circle at Rome had no sympathy with Julian's Hellenic revival. No one shewed any enthusiasm but the narrow circle of Neoplatonist sbphists, and they had no influence with the people.

Yet Julian's attempt to stay the progress of Christianity and to drive back the tide which was submerging the Empire, was, with all its practical faults, by far the ablest yet conceived. It provided a substitute and presented an alternative. The substitute was pretentious and artificial, but it was probably the best that the times could furnish Hellenism, Julian called it; but where in that golden past of Hellas into which the Imperial dreamer peered, could be found a puritan strictness of conduct, a prolonged and sustained religious fervour, and a religion independent of the State? The three strongest parts of his scheme had no connexion with Hellenism. Religions may be used, but cannot be created by statesmen, unless they happen to have the prophetic fire and inspiration — and Julian was no prophet. He may be credited with seizing and combining in one whole the strongest anti-Christian forces of his generation — the passion of Oriental religion, the patriotic desire to retain the old religion under which Greece and Rome had grown great, the glory of the ancient literature, the superstition which clung to magic and divinations, and a philosophy which, if it lacked independence of thought, at least represented that eclecticism which was the intellectual atmosphere which all men then breathed. He brought them together to build an edifice which was to be the temple of his Empire. But though the builder had many of the qualities which go to make a religious reformer — pure in heart and life, full of sincere piety, manly and with a strong sense of duty — the edifice he reared was quite artificial, lacked the living principle of growth, and could not last. Athanasius gave its history in four words when he said "It will soon pass." The world had outgrown paganism.

Whatever faults the Christianity of the time exhibited, whatever ills had come to it from Imperial patronage and conformity with the world, it still retained within it the original simplicity and profundity of its message. Nothing in its environment could take that from it. It proclaimed a living God, Who had made man and all things and for Whom man was made. That God had manifested Himself in Jesus Christ and the centre of the manifestation was the Passion of our Lord — the Cross.

The globalists understand what the West is:
The West is not a geographic term. Poland is further east than Morocco. France is further east than Haiti. Australia is further east than Egypt. Yet Poland, France, and Australia are all considered part of “The West.” Morocco, Haiti, and Egypt are not.

The West is not an ideological or economic term either. India is the world’s largest democracy. Japan is among its most economically advanced nations. No one considers them part of the West.

The West is a racial and religious term. To be considered Western, a country must be largely Christian (preferably Protestant or Catholic) and largely white. Where there is ambiguity about a country’s “Westernness,” it’s because there is ambiguity about, or tension between, these two characteristics. Is Latin America Western? Maybe. Most of its people are Christian, but by U.S. standards, they’re not clearly white. Are Albania and Bosnia Western? Maybe. By American standards, their people are white. But they are also mostly Muslim.
It is not a good sign of your strategic capabilities when your enemies understand what you are defending better than you do.

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182 Comments:

Blogger Phillip George July 07, 2017 7:12 AM  

Aha, Julian plainly didn't try transgender toilets. Where haven't people marched for them? Gay pride could have gotten him over the line. What he needed was a Soros type funded marketing machine as fair and ruthless as CNN.

Notice Bill Gates wants to now shut the door on the invasion of Europe? Time to recruit with

#Alt-Billionaires

Anonymous Rocklea July 07, 2017 7:14 AM  

"So when Trump says being Western is the essence of America’s identity, he’s in part defining America in opposition to some of its own people. He’s not speaking as the president of the entire United States. He’s speaking as the head of a tribe."

A great big tribe, a big beautiful tribe. So true, so true folks, lots of good people; some bad ones too, but we'll take care of that.

OpenID leukosfash July 07, 2017 7:17 AM  

Many Atheists today (e.g. Sargon) are fully aware of the affects of Social Marxist brainwashing on SJWs, Feminists and Gobalists, but are completely unaware that it is the reason they believe there is no God. No matter how many times they nod along to old Beznemov videos, they completely miss the fact that the Soviets' first target was religious faith!

Anonymous Simplytimothy July 07, 2017 7:18 AM  

I am genuinely surprised that our enemies are now showing their open contempt for us. (Sailer seems a bit shocked too)

The death of us is their.explicit goal.

This will get bloody very soon.

Blogger exfarmkid July 07, 2017 7:19 AM  

Julian is rather interesting, is he not? As a thought experiment, it would be fascinating to see how far he could have pushed things if he had longer than two years at the top.

Blogger Cecil Henry July 07, 2017 7:23 AM  



The West, including Canada and America, is not and never was intended to be, a place for "all races and nations".

To claim that it is, or was, is a direct attack on the identity, legitimacy, and existence of the Western people.


The West is a culture created by a specific people and it will be destroyed if that people is dispossessed.

Europeans everywhere have the right to secure their homelands for themselves, without regard to claims others make upon it.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6pP8xBW0AAy6Hy.jpg

Anonymous rien July 07, 2017 7:23 AM  

Vox, have you read "The Uniqueness of Western Civilization"?

If so, I would be very interested in your views on it.

Blogger Lucas July 07, 2017 7:25 AM  

Fantastic piece of History.

Blogger Arthur Isaac July 07, 2017 7:27 AM  

The post-modern has eaten most of our natural culture. I've no idea what "our" religion is or who to worship with. Not changing doesn't work, modernizing is artificial and perpetually plays into what has happened to Harvard for example.

I may lack imagination, but the only successful cultures and religions (religious cultures) come from God Himself like our DNA and come with humility as opposed to the hubris of thinking we can concoct them like a Frankenstein's monster.

Anonymous Rocklea July 07, 2017 7:30 AM  

I met a fella today and the subject of Trump came up. He said he loves him; Stefan calls this the r/K test incidentally; I said I do to, kindred. Anyway we talked about the Poland speech and the fact that Christianity is the only thing that can save the West. He said, "Bloody oath, we need Christianity, I'm an atheist, but I still think we need it."

Paganism is too atomized and has about as much chance as Theosophy of making a comeback.

Blogger Chris Northern July 07, 2017 7:30 AM  

I think they miss a key point, one that explains their ambiguity concerning latin america. Catholicism (an 'ism,' note)is not part of the west as it is wrong in a couple of key points. They tend to view the New Testement in isolation, and it is possible then to view Christ as some kind of proto-communist; that is simply wrong, he was a freedom of the individual, free market, personal responsibility advocate (see Jordan B. peterson for clarification of this idea-set). They also teach that 'Christ died for your sins,' while the truth is he died because of the sins of those who watched him die and did not step forward and say 'No, this is wrong, we -society- are not doing this.'

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) July 07, 2017 7:31 AM  

I thought this was a good observation by Ross Douthat:

Post-Cold War presidents talked less about "the West" & more about universal liberal civilization bc they thought world was going that way.

That universalist view seems a lot less convincing post-Iraq, post-Arab "Spring," w/China's illiberalism resilient and spreading, etc.

World looks more Huntingtonian, less Fukuyaman. That sense of things shifting away from a march of liberalism helped get Trump elected ...

... and naturally informs his rhetoric, which falls back toward more Cold War era vision of the West as bastion rather than universal order.

It's fine to find that air of besiegement to be overdrawn (if a little weird coming from liberals freaking out about Russian power).

But it's not white nationalism. It's just ... not. It's a shift responsive to Bush and Obama-era dashings of universal-civilization hopes.

And people who aren't alt-right talk about "the West" as an entity all the time. Don't let Trump make you crazy.

Blogger Bodo Staron July 07, 2017 7:31 AM  

If you do anything remotely pro western, like I do Youtube vids, it does not take long for the AltReich guys to appear and push Odin (Wotan).

I'm not even Christian, but these guys are an annoying bunch.

I think a lot are just pushing their stupid agenda, because this message of paganism is easy to control, since it has direct links to NS times. Would help if I could find some of the rituals the pagans were into. I think Vox mentioned "mass rapes" in one of his Periscopes.

Anonymous Steve July 07, 2017 7:32 AM  

Even pagan admirers like Ammianus Marcellinus were rather bored with the Emperor's Hellenism and thought the whole thing a devout imagination not worth the trouble he wasted on it.

And so it is today.

The thing that makes paganism worse than useless is nobody believes in it.

Do fat, middle aged Wiccans with mystic crystals in their fannypacks really believe in magic? Really? No, no they don't. If they did, they wouldn't need to drive cars or visit doctors or hold down jobs.

Do internet nazis really believe that Odin and Thor and all the rest of the Aesir gang are living it up across the Bridge Bifrost? Naw, it's just silly LARPing.

So even aside from theological concerns, it fails the most basic test of being a viable religion: actual, sincere, unironic faith from its supposed followers.

Nobody's going to risk life and limb defending the gates of Vienna for a cartoonish pseudo-religion that's less credible than an episode of ThunderCats.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) July 07, 2017 7:32 AM  

Catholicism (an 'ism,' note)is not part of the west as it is wrong in a couple of key points.

This is the most historically illiterate comment anyone has written on this blog in at least a year.

You should log off the internet and go read history for at least three months before commenting again.

Blogger VD July 07, 2017 7:35 AM  

If you do anything remotely pro western, like I do Youtube vids, it does not take long for the AltReich guys to appear and push Odin (Wotan).

They are parasites. They are far more interested in "branding" and marketing than anything else. Ironically, when they attack the far-more-successful figures in the Alt-Lite such as Mike Cernovich and Jack Posobiec for "chasing shekels", they are usually projecting.

Blogger Elizabeth July 07, 2017 7:37 AM  

exfarmkid wrote:Julian is rather interesting, is he not? As a thought experiment, it would be fascinating to see how far he could have pushed things if he had longer than two years at the top.

Good question. Most of the population was still polytheist.

Christianity was a revolutionary movement that once in power gradually applied more and more pressure on the population to convert. Also like secular revolutionary movements, different factions turned on each other for dominance, literally fighting in the streets. Finally, the burnings for heresy started in the 383.

The collapse of Roman authority in Western Europe led to a resurgence of paganism, but that was eventually quashed.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) July 07, 2017 7:37 AM  

I'm not even Christian, but these guys are an annoying bunch.

Like male atheists, they suffer from a similar phenomenon as Sailer's Law of Female Journalism.

...demands that social values (the church) be overturned in order that, Come the Revolution, they will be recognized as the true alpha males and all the hottest women will want to have sex with them.

Blogger Lucas July 07, 2017 7:41 AM  

"There is no such thing as “pure” Europe. The area known as Europe, whose borders are always changing, was always a hotbed of migration."

Europe is a continent of imigrants, goyim.

Trump was wrong!

Blogger Arthur Isaac July 07, 2017 7:42 AM  

@3 I would argue that God first targeted our religious faith. It was fake anyways. What good it may appear to have done civilizationally produced in many a terminal rot. As much as I hate it I suspect the only way forward is through and that atheists and Muslims are the cure to man-made crap.

Blogger Rick July 07, 2017 7:49 AM  

A genuine (True) religion requires the Blessing of God.

"By their fruit you will know them."

(and there is nothing new under the sun)

Anonymous Steve July 07, 2017 7:49 AM  

Come the Revolution, they will be recognized as the true alpha males and all the hottest women will want to have sex with them.

M'ladies will be agog with erotic desire when they see the shrine to Sif I handcrafted from Mountain Dew bottles.

Agog, I say!

Blogger SirGroggy July 07, 2017 7:51 AM  

Peter Beinart says Trump (and by extension the alt-right) is 'paranoid'.

This is the crux of the whole bind we are in.

We seem to be the only people who are even aware that there is a problem.

In white western countries, the people have somehow come to see that it is 'normal' that there could be so many foreigners flooding your country that you could be a minority in your own country.

The fact that white English people are now a minority in London - I suppose Peter Beinart would think this is normal and nothing out of the ordinary and if you notice that this seems a touch out of place or slightly suspicious about this odd situation, then you are apparently suffering from a paranoid psychological episode.

This is the whole problem with the mainstream.
And that is precisely the problem that has not occurred in Eastern Europe.

And if it wasn't for this damn illusion that has spellbound the mainstream, the Alt Right could pack up and go on holidays because we wouldn't be in this damn mess.

Blogger Elizabeth July 07, 2017 7:52 AM  

Josh (the gayest thing here) wrote:I thought this was a good observation by Ross Douthat:



Post-Cold War presidents talked less about "the West" & more about universal liberal civilization bc they thought world was going that way.

That universalist view seems a lot less convincing post-Iraq, post-Arab "Spring," w/China's illiberalism resilient and spreading, etc.

World looks more Huntingtonian, less Fukuyaman. That sense of things shifting away from a march of liberalism helped get Trump elected ...

... and naturally informs his rhetoric, which falls back toward more Cold War era vision of the West as bastion rather than universal order.

It's fine to find that air of besiegement to be overdrawn (if a little weird coming from liberals freaking out about Russian power).

But it's not white nationalism. It's just ... not. It's a shift responsive to Bush and Obama-era dashings of universal-civilization hopes.

And people who aren't alt-right talk about "the West" as an entity all the time. Don't let Trump make you crazy.


Samuel Huntington broke the world into civilizations separated by faith: Roman Catholic/Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, Islam, etc.

Nation-building in Iraq was based on the liberal/cuckservative fantasy that people are alike all over and want the same things and are capable of the same things. Rush Limbaugh opined on the alleged "human desire to be free." On the other hand, Michael Savage asked, "How can we export democracy to a people who have never heard of the Magna Carta"? The Iraq War has been discredited and certainly hurt Jeb! in the 2016 primaries.

The democracy crusaders were also big boosters of immigration from all countries and cultures in the US.

Blogger VD July 07, 2017 7:54 AM  

Peter Beinart says Trump (and by extension the alt-right) is 'paranoid'.

(((Peter Beinart))) doesn't want to go home to Israel. So he's minimizing the problem.

Blogger SirGroggy July 07, 2017 7:58 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Cluebat Vanexodar July 07, 2017 8:01 AM  

Impressive post.

Anonymous Rocklea July 07, 2017 8:04 AM  

"If you seek to defeat the resurgent Paynim and their globalist enablers, you must embrace Deus Vult and the Church Militant."

Many pagan wannabes will I imagine. The strong horse.

Trump's speech in Poland, will I believe, inspire many good politicians - I think some still exist - to be more outspoken. We are going to hear a lot more of them asking for God to save us. Even Hellary, after defeat, said God bless America in one her speeches. I'm surprised her head didn't spin around.

Blogger rumpole5 July 07, 2017 8:09 AM  

Amen!

Anonymous PAC July 07, 2017 8:09 AM  

As far as alt-right paranoia goes, Beinart's notorious election day tweet ("I've never felt more Jewish and less American") suggests a strong case of projection. Everything he's written since the election reeks of what Gilad Atzmon calls Jewish "pre-traumatic stress disorder." (It's tempting to call it guilt, but that word conveys a degree of self-awareness and empathy foreign to most chosen people.)

Blogger SirGroggy July 07, 2017 8:14 AM  

There was one funny thing about 'Christians' in Poland which I heard from a Polish journalist:

The previous Polish government did take in approximately 10,000 refugess from the middle east, but they only took in Christians.
And these refugees were taken in and housed and put on paid welfare from the Polish government.
All good so far. But there was a catch...

These new 'Poles', decided that the Polish welfare payments were not going to provide them with the lifestyle to which they felt entitled, so every last one of them, in the dead of night, ran away from their housing and an exodus ensued in which they all crossed the border into Germany whose welfare payments are more generously provided by Mutti Merkel.

Even though there was little lasting damage done from these 'Christian' refugees (as they just went to Germany instead), it was enough to cause that Polish government get firmly kicked out of government and replaced with the current party, via public vote.

Furthermore, the Germans are admonishing the current Polish government for not taking any refugees, on the grounds that the previous government had agreed to take a portion of the refugees who had been so cordially invited in by the childless Mutti Merkel. The Poles respond that that government was kicked out in the election and the new party had promised the people to reverse the policy. This argument does not sway the German media or political class one iota, because the Germans, though cucked half to death, they do maintain one of their core attributes intact which is a robust, resilient and rigorous contempt for democracy.

Blogger Fenris Wulf July 07, 2017 8:24 AM  

rien wrote:Vox, have you read "The Uniqueness of Western Civilization"?

If so, I would be very interested in your views on it.

A monumental and eye-opening book. I'm no historian, but the evidence for his thesis seems pretty solid.

At one point, I was fascinated by Julian the Apostate (as he was known) and I based a character on him. I reached the same conclusion Vox did: the combination of pagan civil religion and Oriental mystery religions no longer had anything to offer, and the rise of Christianity was inevitable.

Blogger SirGroggy July 07, 2017 8:26 AM  

@19 In that case the Israelis need rip that Islamophobic hate symbol off their flag and throw open their borders. I'm sure the Arabs will be glad to hear they have had a change of heart and have come to realise that Israel belongs to everybody!

Blogger SirGroggy July 07, 2017 8:39 AM  

Peter Beinart:
When the president says being Western is the essence of America’s identity, he’s in part defining America in opposition to some of its own people.

Some people belong more than others.

And nothing symbolises this more purely than the star of David on the flag of Israel, or the Shihada on the flag of Saudi Arabia.

Either there seems to be a bit of hypocrisy, dishonesty and misdirection going on here, or I am suffering acutely from one of these nasty bouts of mental paranoia which so plagues the poor old Mr Trump and his strange paranoia-suffering supporters.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan July 07, 2017 8:42 AM  

When Bush the Younger came upon the scene and then morphed into a great military commander who was going to march into Mesopotamia and teach those people a lesson I thought of Julian the Apostate.

Roughly I put Christianity in about the same place paganism was in Julian's time, it's there statues and all but the heart is weak in its adherents. In short your churches are mainly just another battle ground in the female hierarchy struggle, I'm just thankful I can skip them.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch July 07, 2017 8:46 AM  

I highly recommend checking out E. Michael Jones' Jewish Revolutionary Spirit, as he has an entire chapter devoted to Julian the Apostate. This recommendation and a couple of excerpts are all I can offer in the discussion this morning. Hang on...

Blogger OGRE July 07, 2017 8:47 AM  

Its interesting to note that Julian's method of undermining Christianity and promoting paganism was to institute Tolerance in an official capacity.

Anonymous IndecisiveEvidence July 07, 2017 8:47 AM  

Alt rite pagan spergs see religion as a game of Sid Meiers Civilization: a menu of bonuses you select to optimize your engine. Go Jew for 10 years for the +5 economy then switch to Muslim for +3 military.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan July 07, 2017 8:47 AM  

The Odin Larpers are clownish, you are or you're not and if you have a void in your life that needs some words go towards the Abrahamic religions or some Asiatic one.

It's effeminate to seek validation

Blogger SirGroggy July 07, 2017 8:48 AM  

Beinart's notorious election day tweet ("I've never felt more Jewish and less American") suggests a strong case of projection.

If there is an almighty Trumpslide in 2020 that might be the final straw for poor old Petey.
It must be unnerving to be aware the you don't fully belong.

Blogger tz July 07, 2017 8:50 AM  

I've seen little of Julian, but more of a comic-book Odin-Thor-Valhalla mainly to try to restore a masculinity. They never sang Onward Christian Soldiers, and don't like the rest of Christianity anyway. At least the Greco-roman pantheon had goddesses for justice and wisdom.

(Real) Christianity, even in its fragmented denominations, has a hard righteousness that isn't just played on weekends.

Paganism can be a cafeteria of virtues where you can pick what you want. Atheists without a mooring find that attractive since they can condemn theft and violence, but keep perversion and debauchery.

But Paganism is still empty. The Christian family is the happiest state of man. Even the pagans pantomiming the structure are happier than the pretend Vikings and Bacchants.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch July 07, 2017 8:59 AM  

Only two excerpts this morning. Firstly, Julian the Apostate was a black-magic practicing satanist who consciously rejected Christ:


Julian visited Pergamum, then an important center for Hellenism. There Maximus of Ephesus tightened his control over Julian's mind. Iamblicus was no longer
at Pergamum, but his spirit perdured through the work of his disciples, Aedisius and Maximus. Julian had the reputation of being an ascetic, but intellectually, he showed little discipline much less asceticism. Warned by Eusebius to pursue "the purification of the soul through the use of reason," Julian chose instead the meretricious thaumaturgy Eusebius condemned. Maximus, "completely dedicated to the occult sciences and theurgy," invited Eusebius and Julian to a magic show at the temple of Hecate that featured the spontaneous lighting of torches and other wonders. Julian was swept away by the spectacle. "Farewell to your books, you have shown me my man," Julian said, confounding Eusebius' admonition.

Julian stayed on for a course in magic, during which he was initiated into theurgic mysteries, which Gregory Nazianzen describes thus:

"Julian descended into a subterranean sanctuary closed to the common people in the company of a clever conjurer, a theosophist rather than a philosopher. Such individuals practiced a kind of divination that required darkness and subterranean demons to foretell the future. As Julian advanced father and farther, he encountered terrors increasingly numerous and alarming-strange sounds, revolting exhalations, fiery apparitions, and other such prodigies. Since he was taking his first steps in the occult science, the strangeness of the apparitions terrified him. He made the sign of the Cross. The demons were subdued and all the visions disappeared. Julian regained courage and began to advance. Then the dread objects began to reappear. The sign of the Cross was repeated and they again disappeared. Julian wavered. The director of the initiation at his side explained: "We loathe but no longer fear them. The weaker cause has conquered!" Convinced by these words, Julian was led on toward the abyss of perdition. What he later heard and did only those know who have undergone such initiations. At any rate, from that day he was possessed."

Anonymous Reenay July 07, 2017 9:05 AM  

We serve a living God that continually transforms His people by the power of the Holy Spirit. We see this transformation with our own eyes.

Meanwhile, the LARPagans build monuments to Thor from recycled soda bottles, who they envision as Chris Hemsworth.

Shame that Heimdall is a black guy, huh?

Blogger Laramie Hirsch July 07, 2017 9:08 AM  

Julian the Apostate wanted to utilize the Jews politically in order to undermine the Christians. Rather than a direct physical assault against the Christian populace, he would attack the obliquely, indirectly, by attempting to help the Jews rebuild the Temple. But a curse was placed upon anyone who tried to rebuild the Temple. When under Julian, the Jews tried to do this, supernatural events took place.


According to St. John Chrysostom, Julian "overlooked nothing but worked quietly and a little at a time to bring the Jews to offer sacrifice, in this way he expected that it would be easy for them to go from sacrifice to the worship of idols.''' The emperor's construction crew was about to start construction of the new temple, "when suddenly fire leaped forth from the foundations and completely consumed not only a great number of the workmen but even the stones piled up there to support the structure.'''

Gregory of Nazianzen says the Jewish women "carried the dirt in their lap with no consideration for their robes and for the tenderness of their bodies, because they saw in all this a work of piety, as they carried everything downward" from the Temple foundations to a nearby valley.121 "But," Gregory continues:

a sudden whirlwind and the convulsion of the earth caused them to rush to a nearby church .. as they [the Jewish women] reached the door of the church which was open, suddenly those doors closed, as if by an invisible hand, which filled with fear the impious and protest the devout. It is reported unanimously and held for certain that when they tried to open the door of the church, flames that burst forth from the inside prevented them from forcing the door open. The flames then burnt some of them and destroyed others ... Still others lost various limbs of their bodies to the flames that burst from inside the church and burnt some of them to death.'

Gregory adds that those who refuse to admit the event's miraculous character "do not believe in any miracle of God .... Gregory, says Stanley Jaki, "was fully aware of the need of being credible when reporting about truly miraculous events .... 24 He, therefore, scrupulously avoids embellishment in describing the second miraculous occurrence, "the appearance of a cross within a luminous circle in the sky"

Blogger Laramie Hirsch July 07, 2017 9:10 AM  

Okay, I love this topic. So I'll include one more for the Dread Ilk's consumption.

Julian and the Jews recognized the explosions as a sign the work should not continue. Julian was fatally wounded by a spear thrust in his side in his military campaign against the Persians, uttering, according to one account, "Nenikekas Galilaiae," just before his death or, as Swinburne rendered the phrase, "Thou hast triumphed, 0 pale Galilean." Another account has him saying, "Helios, thou hast ruined me!"144 Christian legend attributes his death to St. Mercurius, a Roman soldier martyred a Century before.'45 St. Mercurius' role in slaying Julian was memorialized in Orthodox iconography, but it appears first in the chronicle ofJohn Malalas after 563. According to one account, Christ ordered Mercurius to slay Julian. Another says the Theotokos gave the order.

Either way, the champion of the Jews died by the rivers of Babylon, and Jewish hopes for a rebuilt Temple died with him. The Jews and the pagans were demoralized by their failure to reconstruct the Temple. Graetz says "the death of Julian in the neighborhood of the Tigris (June 363) deprived the Jews of the last ray of hope for a peaceful and unmolested existence .... The death of Julian for all practical purposes ended Jewish political aspiration, certainly in Europe, for roughly a millennium. Towards the end of the 14th Century, their hopes would revive briefly as they conspired with the Moors in Spain against the Reconquista, but they backed the wrong side and were expelled from Spain.

Blogger Laramie Hirsch July 07, 2017 9:10 AM  

Goin' to bed guys. Take care.

Anonymous Avalanche July 07, 2017 9:11 AM  

@28 "Even Hellary, after defeat, said God bless America in one her speeches. I'm surprised her head didn't spin around."

Special dispensation from the Devil when he cast her free! (Well, cast her somewhere....)

Blogger tuberman July 07, 2017 9:16 AM  

1. PG

"Notice Bill Gates wants to now shut the door on the invasion of Europe?"

Bill Gates is pragmatic and apolitical under the hood, he will make a good bellwether for the sweep of the pendulum moving the sheep to the Right. Bill showed early signs of doing a 180 when he praised Trump after his first meeting with him. In a couple of years he will promote Civic Nationalism at least. But he does not control Microsoft now, so it will go even more H1B and etc.

Blogger Phillip George July 07, 2017 9:19 AM  

Vox, news is Scalise is back in ICU - maybe septic shock?
So what was he injected with in the hospital?

CNN may soon be able to claim first blood in the incitement wars.

Another notch in the Swamp hilt.

Blogger ZhukovG July 07, 2017 9:25 AM  

Ah, Julian, Establishment Conservative.

I have observed that the smarter atheists and leftists would rather be an eccentric gadfly in a Christian society than suffer the conditions of living in a society where their beliefs had triumphed.

Blogger Phillip George July 07, 2017 9:26 AM  

#hillarysendsherthoughtsandprayers

Anonymous Roters.Libs.Push July 07, 2017 9:33 AM  

Interesting piece. I think about this when I hear Steve McNallen talk about Folkish Odinism/Wotanism. He isn't so much LARPing, as merely claiming we could live by the 9 principles, philosophically, whether the ancient Germanic/Viking gods exist or not.

Problem is, having walked in and around those circles, and having had my own conversion experience (including an NDE), Christianity, at least in it's simplest form--believing in Christ Jesus--whether you engage in passover/communion rituals (possibly pagan in origin) or baptism or go to church---Christianity is TRUE. There is only one GOD, and He came to Earth as an Avatar basically, known to us as the Christ--Cosmic and Earthly.

While the criticisms may be valid (Paul never met Christ, spoke of the Cosmic Christ and the Earthly Jesus, not so much), the reality is, Christianity is true and the only path to the heavenly realm, out of THIS matrix--and it is COMPLETELY COMPATIBLE with nationalism, and protecting one's people from outsiders.

Blogger rondolf July 07, 2017 9:38 AM  

"If you seek to defeat the resurgent Paynim and their globalist enablers, you must embrace Deus Vult and the Church Militant."

If the church had retained this character we wouldn't have so many yooung men seeking alternatives like paganism.

Blogger Chris Northern July 07, 2017 9:39 AM  

Dear Josh (the gayest thing here)

Obviously, I did not mean this in the literal sense you peceived. "Catholicism (an 'ism,' note)is not part of the west as it is wrong in a couple of key points." So, read as 'the successful west,' if you like. My point was/is (obviously) that the economically successful Christian societies are Protestant, and contrast interestingly with Catholic nations, which in Europe readily adopted Napoleonic top down state planning that then itself bled into South America hand in hand.... etc. etc. etc.

I hope that's clarification enough as I really don't care to explain what I think is obvious when my point is not 'grasped whole' with just a pointed and a nod.

Blogger Gary Eden July 07, 2017 9:54 AM  

The problem Julian faced we face today in Christianity. You can't put new wine in old wineskins. This is why looking for spiritual renewal in existing denominations is folly. It can't work. And if you try, and your faith is genuine, you'll either wither or be kicked out.

If you really believe in Christ go and make disciples, the rest will follow.

But this is a hard pill to swallow for folks raised in a church who put their identity in that sect rather than in Christ alone. But they are converged, dead, and their light removed. You must follow Christ, not the blind and dead.

Anonymous Trimegistus July 07, 2017 9:57 AM  

Unfortunately, I'm afraid Christianity reached the stage of Julian's "Hellenism" after World War I, if not earlier. The Church Militant is as laughable an idea as resurrecting the worship of Zeus.

I'm afraid we may be doomed to a series of ideologies all seeking to fill that void, struggling until one gains the brute power to enforce belief.

Anonymous DonReynolds July 07, 2017 9:58 AM  

There is Paganism and it is commonplace. Perhaps not the Hellenism of the Ancient Greeks and Romans, perhaps not the martial Viking religions, but more akin to the Ancient Druids. In the popular press, it is called environmentalism. In an earlier time, it was Mother Nature. Altogether, the earth gods, not much different from the primitive American Indians....with an admixture of European fantasy creatures, such as fairies, hobgoblins, Earlkings, gnomes, elfs, and the like. It may not rise to the level of a religion but it is certainly a cult belief.

It has always been difficult to separate true scientific fact from scientific fantasy, even in our own time. What is sometimes dressed as scientific fact may actually be complete rubbish. Separating the two (publicly) can be immensely controversial.

My mother was not well educated in the sciences but she was a walking encyclopedia of "old wives tales", as I like to call them. A belief that the world works in a certain way, when even basic science would prove to be nonsense or fantastic. But if you should refuse to agree or if you doubt or if you offer another explanation, it will provoke a strong dose of anger and resentment. You just became a heretic, a non-believer, and everything that is wrong in the world.

Blogger allyn71 July 07, 2017 10:00 AM  

@ Chris Northern

Going with the double down, bold strategy cotton. Especially for one as intellectually challenged as your previous efforts show you to be.

I have to go so I won't be able to enjoy the sight of your Gamma sperg all over this thread. To save you the bother I already know you are really the Secret King and we are all the dolts to stupid to realize your brilliance.

Anonymous Rocklea July 07, 2017 10:11 AM  

"Unfortunately, I'm afraid Christianity reached the stage of Julian's "Hellenism" after World War I, if not earlier. The Church Militant is as laughable an idea as resurrecting the worship of Zeus."

For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

Anonymous DonReynolds July 07, 2017 10:22 AM  

@59 Rocklea
"For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion."

Given the choice, and no one has that choice, I had rather be the dead lion than a living dog. After all, the dead lion was once a live lion.

But that would seem to be the philosophy of certain individuals....better to be a live coward than a dead hero.

Blogger Phillip George July 07, 2017 10:33 AM  

How do you sell Christianity to morons? Lock them out and make them pay to get back in.

Blogger ZhukovG July 07, 2017 10:36 AM  

There is no denomination so dead that the power of the Holy Spirit cannot quicken it. Pray for revival. But also know that it pleases our Lord to include us in his salvific work.

We don't need a Pope or Preacher or even Emperor to call a Crusade. It only takes one Man willing to talk to another Man to set in motion a Crusade that will reform a Parish/Congregation. It only takes one Parish/Congregation of Crusaders to set in motion the reformation of a denomination.

So let us, each of us where we are, call a Crusade. Deus Vult!

Anonymous Baseball Savant July 07, 2017 10:37 AM  

Latin America isn't the West.

Blogger praetorian July 07, 2017 10:44 AM  

https://infogalactic.com/info/Peter_Beinart

His parents were Jewish immigrants from South Africa (his maternal grandfather was from Russia and his maternal grandmother, who was Sephardic, was from Egypt).[3][4][5] His mother, Doreen (née Pienaar), is former director of the Harvard's Human Rights film series at the John F. Kennedy School of Government, and his father, Julian Beinart, is a former professor of architecture at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

Dammit, /pol/

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd July 07, 2017 11:28 AM  

Trimegistus wrote:Unfortunately, I'm afraid Christianity reached the stage of Julian's "Hellenism" after World War I, if not earlier.

When no one believes in a bogus religion, that's the end of it.

Trimegistus wrote: The Church Militant is as laughable an idea as resurrecting the worship of Zeus.

When no one believes in the one true God, we learn yet again that He always preserves a remnant, and that He can restore believers and believers are the Church. The Church Militant is always a very real possibility. It will certainly return in God's time.

Blogger Robert Divinity July 07, 2017 11:40 AM  

Beinart's rant richly illustrates why Judaism and Western Civilization really are not compatible. Less and less he and other American Jews even bother with the pretense. They support cultural and racial genocide and don't hide it.

Those of us who subscribe/subscribed to the Jared Taylor view of American Jewry, to wit find the criticism overblown, increasingly are in an untenable position. It would be hard to quantify how much Beinart represents the American Jewish population but given its prominence (even as it fades and dies), the clear and present danger posed cannot be ignored any longer.

Trump's speech represents at a minimum the beginning of the end of the attempt to exterminate our race and culture. It got very ugly and will get uglier, but we will save our race and culture. Beinart and company don't plan to surrender without a fight.

Anonymous Dark Eden July 07, 2017 11:55 AM  

Pagan guy here. I'm so glad I can finally jump into one of these conversations when at least a few people are still reading comments!

The problem with paganism is that its all bullshit. There I said it. If it were anywhere close to pagan fantasies, we could at least have a conversation about replacing Christianity. I would dearly love that. Unfortunately for me, there's absolutely no chance of that ever happening. Most pagans aren't like me, or even the Odin worshipping 1488ers. The vast majority is just Marxism that mentions Hecate and Astarte every so often.

Steve described them as, 'fat, middle aged Wiccans with mystic crystals in their fannypack'. Stings a little there Steve but yeah, that's about ninety percent of the Wiccan Circle I used to attend. (key words 'used to') They'd get up, hold some witchy brickabrack, read some lines from a book that might as well be "Witchcraft for Dummies" and then bitch about Bush/Trump, white men and Republicans for two hours. I have desperately tried for some kind of spiritual conversation or moment or anything but it has always been fleeting at best. I've noticed the witchiness ramps up with the number of Christians in the room that can be offended.

Pagans, Wiccans especially, like to pretend there's this unbroken line of covens from the Picts all the way to present day. Whatever the Picts and Celts and Druids of old believed, I'd bet money it wasn't Marxism with Goddess Names. This modern day... whatever it is, has nothing at all in common with the paganism of old that Vox is talking about up there. Even if it was that, I don't think it could replace Christianity. I feel like, as a cultural force, Christianity is already stamped with the best features of pagan greek, roman and scandanavian cultures. The chaff has already been burned away. I've tried to list the pagan virtures I'd like to see expressed more and they're already baked in.

I appreciate the thought and conversation about Paganism here. Being thought of at all is great! However, please DO NOT try to make room for us. Take care of yourselves, build the culture as you would have it. I'm the oddball. Its my place to figure out where I fit in western culture, not western culture's place to bend itself to accommodate me. I am indelibly part of the West. This is my home, and right now especially we are all fighting for the soul of our shared culture. We've all been far too accommodating for far too long, and far too much has been lost because of it.

Blogger Deep Thought July 07, 2017 11:55 AM  

This is why Christianity cannot compete against Islam. Living side to side, eventually Christianity will lose. The only recourse for Christianity is the violent expulsion of Islam. Death and violence.

Difficult to hear but the west chose it's course and nothing short of genocide will change it.

Blogger Matthew Funk July 07, 2017 12:07 PM  

"If you want to preserve the West, there needs to be an alliance between alt Right Christians and alt Right pagans"

"As long as the non-Christians elements of the Alt Right are capable of understanding the importance of Christianity in the culturual sense and understanding the necessity of the moral foundation, the future time preference and the hope it provides the majority of the population, that's all I'm saying is necessary"

"There's no reason to view them (non-Christians elements of the alt Right) rather than an ideolgoical ally."

"If you want to preserve the West, there needs to be an alliance between Alt Right pagans and Alt Right Christians."

The godless secularists threaten both our houses. Trying to police the religion of other alt righters, from any position, is dumb. #hammerandcrossunited.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener July 07, 2017 12:22 PM  

"The Church Militant is as laughable an idea as resurrecting the worship of Zeus."

Not if you're even passingly familiar with the history of Christendom.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) July 07, 2017 12:24 PM  

My point was/is (obviously) that the economically successful Christian societies are Protestant, and contrast interestingly with Catholic nations, which in Europe readily adopted Napoleonic top down state planning that then itself bled into South America hand in hand.... etc. etc. etc.

The west did not begin in 1517 or 1799 or 1804.

My advice is to log off and go read history for three months.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) July 07, 2017 12:25 PM  

The godless secularists threaten both our houses. Trying to police the religion of other alt righters, from any position, is dumb. #hammerandcrossunited.

Get behind me Satan.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) July 07, 2017 12:26 PM  

I have desperately tried for some kind of spiritual conversation or moment or anything but it has always been fleeting at best. I've noticed the witchiness ramps up with the number of Christians in the room that can be offended.

Pray. Seek God. Ask him to show himself to you. Read the bible, pray for understanding.

Blogger Aeoli Pera July 07, 2017 12:34 PM  

Phillip George wrote:Aha, Julian plainly didn't try transgender toilets. Where haven't people marched for them? Gay pride could have gotten him over the line. What he needed was a Soros type funded marketing machine as fair and ruthless as CNN.

Notice Bill Gates wants to now shut the door on the invasion of Europe? Time to recruit with

#Alt-Billionaires



Keep him out. Everything the man touches turns to s***.

Blogger Aeoli Pera July 07, 2017 12:37 PM  

Vox, you aren't going to sell pagans on historical facts if that isn't what converted them in the first place.

Blogger Aeoli Pera July 07, 2017 12:43 PM  

Steve wrote:Do internet nazis really believe that Odin and Thor and all the rest of the Aesir gang are living it up across the Bridge Bifrost? Naw, it's just silly LARPing.

So even aside from theological concerns, it fails the most basic test of being a viable religion: actual, sincere, unironic faith from its supposed followers.

Nobody's going to risk life and limb defending the gates of Vienna for a cartoonish pseudo-religion that's less credible than an episode of ThunderCats.


They think everybody else is also LARPing their faith for the health benefits. "Everyone lies for effect" = I lie for effect.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents July 07, 2017 12:46 PM  

Putin - Trump handshake. Obvious body language. Compare and contrast with 0bama or Hillary Rodan Robot interaction.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/07/07/15/421E5D5C00000578-0-Trump_said_that_he_was_honored_to_meet_Putin_as_they_sat_down_to-a-39_1499437356447.jpg

Anonymous JamesD July 07, 2017 12:56 PM  

You can't have a history of Julian without mentioning his attempt to reestablish judaism with the rebuilding of the Temple. There God confirmed that jews were rejected by Him when He leveled their construction site.

Anonymous Deadmau5 Patton July 07, 2017 12:57 PM  

The west won't be saved or converted back to any of its previous forms, pagan or christian. The west, or white people more specifically, will build the next step as we always do.

Blogger cassius dio July 07, 2017 1:20 PM  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTOu0-bCSlM

Who would true valour see...

Blogger VFM #7634 July 07, 2017 1:32 PM  

Liberals: trying to be tolerant and open-minded to everyone except Christians since 355.

Anonymous Gen. Kong July 07, 2017 1:54 PM  

Dark Eden:
They'd get up, hold some witchy brickabrack, read some lines from a book that might as well be "Witchcraft for Dummies" and then bitch about Bush/Trump, white men and Republicans for two hours. I have desperately tried for some kind of spiritual conversation or moment or anything but it has always been fleeting at best.

... Could someone explain to me how the above description of a Wiccan 'service' is different in any significant way from that of any mainline Protestant sevice in Murika, or any Novus Ordo Catholic one - except for nominally 'Christian' brickabrack versus witchy brickabrack? As for the Evangelicals (what Barnhardt terms as the super-fun rock-band church), they're only a few steps back from the above - as could be seen with SBC's recent attack on the Alt-Right for the sin of rayciss, which apparently displeases both Judeo-Christ and Golden Dindu.

Blogger Elizabeth July 07, 2017 1:55 PM  

@ 77 -

I think that the God Emperor and Mr. Putin will get along fine. They certainly respect each other.

Blogger tz July 07, 2017 1:56 PM  

@57 - Old Wives Tales by your own example resulted in old wives. Modernism has resulted in Curie-Earhart-etc. syndrome and old cat ladies.

Evolution, Climate Change, and Modern Monetary Theory are Old Cat-Lady Tales.

Blogger tz July 07, 2017 1:59 PM  

@56 You haven't seen the "Church Militant". Trust me, you don't want to. They alaways do justice, and for a time are merciful.

Amazingly, the lies about the brutality of the Crusades, Galileo, the Inquisition, Witch burning, Religious Wars that were so horrible to contempate isn't coming up in the discussion.

Christians either a bunch of cucky eunuchs or brutal zealots depending on which insult seems to be more appropritate at the moment.

Blogger Listener July 07, 2017 2:01 PM  

For whom is this article intended? What is the point of it? Most of your readers are Christians, or at least dismissive of paganism. So it can't be for them. And admirers of the Emperor Julian (who as Julius Evola correctly noted, should not be called 'apostate' as he was faithful to the Gods. Constantine is far more deserving of that title) will not be very impressed by it either.

That Christianity 'triumphed' in the Roman world cannot be used as proof of its superiority to paganism, unless you will also concede Islam's superiority over Christianity. Or did you not know that the former capital of the Roman Empire, and the very center of the Christian world is now a Muslim city, and that many formerly Christian lands are now Islamic?

You have said that pagans should not attack Christians, yet you attack the pagans who take their beliefs most seriously, the Hellenists and NeoPlatonist philosophers of Julian's time and the Odinists of today. Essentially what you are asking them to do, is to not take their beliefs seriously, to stand by while the Gods and Heroes are slandered.

Blogger tz July 07, 2017 2:03 PM  

@52 Paul met the Risen Christ.
Two honest atheist skeptics many decades ago decided that if they could just disprove two things, they could falsify Chrisianity. The first chose the bodily Ressurection, the second chose the conversion of Paul. They went off for a year. Afterward, they met and both were Christians having proved their assigned point.

Because you don't know anyone who rose from the dead recently is NOT an argument that it didn't happen.

Saying that miracles don't or can't happen is asking others to prove a negative.

Blogger tz July 07, 2017 2:05 PM  

@48 - Billy Gates wants to stay where he and Malinda can more easily sterilize them via the NGOs they fund.

Bill Gates is merely a more technical version of George Soros. I cannot find any evidence he is less evil, only more subtle. And has a "nice" wife who claims to be Catholic to do much of the dirty work.

Blogger Cail Corishev July 07, 2017 2:09 PM  

Could someone explain to me how the above description of a Wiccan 'service' is different in any significant way from that of any mainline Protestant sevice in Murika, or any Novus Ordo Catholic one - except for nominally 'Christian' brickabrack versus witchy brickabrack?

Far too often, there is none. (Sometimes even in the brickabrack; witchcraft came into the Catholic women's religious orders in a big way in the 1970s.) That's why we talk so much here about Churchianity and problems in the Church -- far more than we talk about paganism or atheism or anything else. There's a ton of cleaning out and restoring to do.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener July 07, 2017 2:30 PM  

"Because you don't know anyone who rose from the dead recently is NOT an argument that it didn't happen."

Actually...

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 07, 2017 2:39 PM  

Noah B The Savage Gardener wrote:Actually...
Yes, it is an argument. An invalid one, as was previously established, as it relies on the postulate "Something no-one has ever seen is not possible", which is obviously false.

Anonymous Roundtine July 07, 2017 2:40 PM  

the economically successful Christian societies are Protestant, and contrast interestingly with Catholic nations

Protestantism might be a symptom rather than a cause. See Bavaria.

Anonymous patrick kelly July 07, 2017 3:10 PM  

"Actually...

Tee hee hee...

Anonymous CarpeOro July 07, 2017 3:40 PM  

The vast yawning gap of ignorance in the wannabe-pagans of what life in pagan Europe was like displays more of their lack of knowledge than any knowledge of which they speak. Based on pantheons of beings that were at best simply images of more powerful humans, complete with all the foibles and failings of humans (patricide, fratricide, infanticide, incest [one the most common traits amongst them], rape). Constant is not a word used in describing them - capricious is. The wannabes are simply looking to degenerate into the "might makes right" way of running society - basically thinking they will be on the side of power. I have roughly as much esteem for them as I do feminists. Why? Because they have that same breadth of vision, having little understanding of where they have been or where they are going.

Blogger Rusty July 07, 2017 3:43 PM  

@86 Yes on the subject of Christianity vs Paganism Vox acts very much like an SJW. We (Christianity) can mock and attack all we want, but don't you DARE punch back.

Anonymous CarpeOro July 07, 2017 3:50 PM  

"That Christianity 'triumphed' in the Roman world cannot be used as proof of its superiority to paganism, unless you will also concede Islam's superiority over Christianity. Or did you not know that the former capital of the Roman Empire, and the very center of the Christian world is now a Muslim city, and that many formerly Christian lands are now Islamic?"

Kind of ignores the basis of the spread of the religions in Europe - Christianity was primarily through persuasion and reason, Islam almost completely through force and coercion. It should be noted that Islam generally spreads in societies and cultures that favor taking from others who are not part of the tribe - see Arabs, Turks, large swaths of Northern Africa.

Someone else alluded to paganism rising again briefly after the fall of the West. What part of barbarian invaders who were primarily pagans do you not understand? Christianity continued to spread as the invaders converted.

Anonymous ABProsper July 07, 2017 4:09 PM  

The West as we understand is inherently Christian and believe in it or not,Christian values are the "software" and the bedrock of anything we'd recognize as the West . It is our posterity and without it, the US Constitution wouldn't function nor would I suspect most modern European nations

Heathens and Pagans are not the same though the easy divisor is IMO Heathens could run a virtuous functional society and have, Pagans cannot

Thus Hellenic Pagans and Northern/Western hHeathens can be virtuous those virtues are orthogional to the West as we understand it. Its pretty unlikley that creeping heathenry is going to take over and nor would we like the results, I'm very heathen tolerant, I like them mostly but they can't run a society .

With few exceptions, heathens are not impressive indviduals when the faith needs them . there are exceptions the AFA founder Stephen McNallen is one but he is not the typical Heathen nor is Jack Donovan or the Golden One . The have a long way to go and little time to get there. I don't think they'll get there but who knows?

As for the Wiccans/Pagans , they don't have a moral system I'd recognize . Do as you will so long as it harm none works alright I guess for certain types of individuals but something derived from Crowley is not going make a society. Similarly New Agers are generally harmless and going extinct anyway but same there. They can't run a society

As to Steve's comments re: magic, not exactly. Most Witches/Pagans do believe in it but it has limits . Its a tool for understanding and assisting in goals , not a way of life.

That said if Christianity turns out to be just another religion past its prime in the West , we are going to have big problems. Not Islam though its an issue a helathy nationalist society can deal with that , buit having any systems to encourage the public order and self control required for our overlly complex civilizations .

The only one out there now is Chritianity and we are years from developing anything else. that works.

Blogger FrankNorman July 07, 2017 4:10 PM  


You have said that pagans should not attack Christians, yet you attack the pagans who take their beliefs most seriously, the Hellenists and NeoPlatonist philosophers of Julian's time and the Odinists of today. Essentially what you are asking them to do, is to not take their beliefs seriously, to stand by while the Gods and Heroes are slandered.


Actually, I think the real point is that such people as a rule do not really take those beliefs all that seriously. If there are people who do, they are too few to be politically significant.

Which is not to say that there cannot be such a thing as a sincere "Odinist" - we just don't see such people being of much help against the Marxist-Moslem alliance.

Anonymous Anonymous July 07, 2017 4:47 PM  

Carpe0ro with the christian comedy hour lol

"The vast yawning gap of ignorance in the wannabe-pagans of what life in pagan Europe was like displays more of their lack of knowledge than any knowledge of which they speak.......

Kind of ignores the basis of the spread of the religions in Europe - Christianity was primarily through persuasion and reason"

Tell that to the Cathars, Bosnians, Prussian Balts, millions of women burned alive, participants of the 30 years war,etc. Christianity, in part, was the first eugenics program against our people. Killing women and imposing celibacy among many of our most alpha and intelligent.

It was spread through slaughter, treasonous fratricide, jewish subversion strategy with greedy kings, aristocrats, elites willing to convert for economic, trade, and and power advantages as well as a tool to exploit their own countrymen. Not unlike what we see today with political and corporate elites willing to sell out their own people, culture, and countries for a few shekels and to be part of the club. Christianity was globalism 1.0

Luckily for all of Europe the Teutonic Crusader Cucks who were traitors to their race and continent were no match for the mighty Lithuanian Pagans who had no problem fighting a two front war or else the Mongols would have overrun the continent. Had it not been for them you and Vox would be Muslim Zealots today telling us how Islam is the one true faith of Western Civilization after the Mongols had imposed it on us.

Taking a manifest destiny interpretation of history is always an error but who needs context or critical thinking when you're a christian.

Anonymous Anton July 07, 2017 4:52 PM  

Carpe0ro with the christian comedy hour lol

"The vast yawning gap of ignorance in the wannabe-pagans of what life in pagan Europe was like displays more of their lack of knowledge than any knowledge of which they speak.......

Kind of ignores the basis of the spread of the religions in Europe - Christianity was primarily through persuasion and reason"

Tell that to the Cathars, Bosnians, Prussian Balts, millions of women burned alive, participants of the 30 years war,etc. Christianity, in part, was the first eugenics program against our people. Killing women and imposing celibacy among many of our most alpha and intelligent.

It was spread through slaughter, treasonous fratricide, jewish subversion strategy with greedy kings, aristocrats, elites willing to convert for economic, trade, and and power advantages as well as a tool to exploit their own countrymen. Not unlike what we see today with political and corporate elites willing to sell out their own people, culture, and countries for a few shekels and to be part of the club. Christianity was globalism 1.0

Luckily for all of Europe the Teutonic Crusader Cucks who were traitors to their race and continent were no match for the mighty Lithuanian Pagans who had no problem fighting a two front war or else the Mongols would have overrun the continent. Had it not been for them you and Vox would be Muslim Zealots today telling us how Islam is the one true faith of Western Civilization after the Mongols had imposed it on us.

Taking a manifest destiny interpretation of history is always an error but who needs context or critical thinking when you're a christian.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 07, 2017 4:55 PM  

Nothing like the whining of Neo-Pagans in the morning.
Seriously, we can slander Odin all we want, because you don't believe in Odin, either.
Oh, and Anony there, you might want to check some actual history instead of the anti-Christian propaganda you love so much.

Blogger Elizabeth July 07, 2017 5:15 PM  

CarpeOro wrote:"That Christianity 'triumphed' in the Roman world cannot be used as proof of its superiority to paganism, unless you will also concede Islam's superiority over Christianity. Or did you not know that the former capital of the Roman Empire, and the very center of the Christian world is now a Muslim city, and that many formerly Christian lands are now Islamic?"

Kind of ignores the basis of the spread of the religions in Europe - Christianity was primarily through persuasion and reason, Islam almost completely through force and coercion. It should be noted that Islam generally spreads in societies and cultures that favor taking from others who are not part of the tribe - see Arabs, Turks, large swaths of Northern Africa.

Someone else alluded to paganism rising again briefly after the fall of the West. What part of barbarian invaders who were primarily pagans do you not understand? Christianity continued to spread as the invaders converted.


After the Christians took control of the Roman Empire, Christianity spread from the top down, both inside and later outside of the Empire.

Anonymous Sertorius July 07, 2017 5:33 PM  

Gary Eden @55 touches on the heart of the issue: returning to the status quo ante is a mug's game, since the "raw material" of the human soul has been irrevocably changed in the meantime. Vico--or more recently, Phillip Rieff--elucidate the problem well.

They may have to go back, but we can't go home again.

Blogger S1AL July 07, 2017 5:36 PM  

"After the Christians took control of the Roman Empire, Christianity spread from the top down, both inside and later outside of the Empire."

This is absurd. One of the primary reasons that the Romans began persecuting Christianity throughout the Empire was the rapid spread of Christianity through the rank and file of the legions. The first Christian emperor was CONSTANTINE. That was the 4th century AD, at which point the Church was so widely established that the first ecumenical council was composed of over 250 major bishops.

Blogger SirHamster July 07, 2017 6:05 PM  

Listener wrote:For whom is this article intended? What is the point of it? Most of your readers are Christians, or at least dismissive of paganism. So it can't be for them. And admirers of the Emperor Julian (who as Julius Evola correctly noted, should not be called 'apostate' as he was faithful to the Gods. Constantine is far more deserving of that title) will not be very impressed by it either.


Reading the first sentence is hard: "It's not uncommon to hear atheists and other unbelievers who wish to defend Christendom, but do so without Christianity, suggesting that perhaps a return to European paganism is an option ... There is only one solution, and that is the repentance and cleansing of the European churches leading to a Christian revival and a new Crusade. "

As a Christian, it was illuminating to read how paganism failed, from a scholarly neutral POV. It affirms the truth that Christianity is not only a true solution, it is the only true solutin. You failed to understand the value of this article for Christians.

That your feelz are kicking in for quoting a selection from a 1911 article demonstrates why the Christian path is stronger than the pagan one, intellectually and emotionally. We can handle history. You can't. We can take critism and persecution and antifragily grow stronger. You whine.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 07, 2017 6:11 PM  

Sertorius wrote:returning to the status quo ante is a mug's game, since the "raw material" of the human soul has been irrevocably changed in the meantime.
No. That's simply a lie. Or wishful thinking, if you want to be nice about it.
The human soul has not changed.
Christians have been afraid to teach their children.

Blogger Matthew Funk July 07, 2017 6:45 PM  

The two unacceptable, and unacceptable by Vox's own words, positions are

a) attempts to make the alt Right entirely inaccessible to non-Christians
b) attempts to redefine the alt Right as a non-Christian entity.

Barely a month ago, Vox himself gave a series of observations that would be useful for a Asatru/Christian alliance. The terms were fair for all parties involved.

That truth you so proudly boast is simply not verifiable. You can believe Jesus' words to be true all you like, but they aren't proven by any objective standard. Christians can not prove their faith, atheists can not disprove it. There is a reason it is called faith, it is a belief in something that can't be verified one way or the other. If you want to use to societally beneficial outcomes of piety as an example of either his divinity or at least the superiority of the religion as a social institution, you still have to understand that this is circumstantial proof. Christians that work in pursuit of globalist agendas would seem to be a higher priority item than Asatruar by a factor of several hundred. Also, it is absolutely beyond debate that Europe and Christianity shaped each other. The idea that Christians simply converted and civilized the outsider by a superior moral code is ridiculously naive. Many of those values that Christianity gets credit for bringing to Europe were impressed upon it by religions that existed in Europe prior to its existence. I always hear modern Christians take credit for ending certain barbarities in its preceding faiths without giving the preceding faith of the region credit for the values impressed upon it. What constituted an initial Christian value and the ones that it took from other religions during the following 800 years is a very long subject.

The Christian population of the West is falling, both as a percentage and in terms of real numbers. When it comes to the various forces that are filling that void, perhaps you can at least admit that we're the lowest on the totem pole of concerns. Fighting heathens that are trying to eradicate/marginalize Christianity is a good use of resources. Fighting those that are trying to work alongside Christians is a terrible use of resources.

Anonymous Anton July 07, 2017 7:03 PM  

Why do christians think that's an argument? "our jesus is real" is a monotheistic judeo-christian mindset so whether or not somebody takes a literal view of Odin or whoever is irrelevant. Also the only thing real about jesus is your faith that he existed.

Enlighten me with some secular history about how the crusaders didn't genocide the Prussian Balts or spend two centuries attacking the Pagan Lithuanians while they were playing the most significant role defending Europe from its greatest ever human threat in the Mongols. FYI Teutonic Knights also found time to attack the Catholic Poles and Orthodox East Slavs while they were busy defending Europe and aligning with the Lithuanians at times in TRUE European spirit. Something many on here are seemingly bereft of.

Christianity is inherently universal as the goal is to have everybody be christian. It's inclusive and at the very least spiritually egalitarian but also easily subverted into being racially egalitarian. You can reference the Tower of Babel as evidence for God wanting separate nations and whatever else but they can cherry pick passages for an egalitarian point of view and its just as real to them as your interpretation is to you.

Side note - Christians need to stop trying to claim Catholic faith in Poland is the cause for their Nationalism or the only way it can be achieved. Isn't going the same for other Catholics and more importantly the Czechs are almost 90% atheist/non religious and are even more anti-migrant with excellent gun laws, conceal carry, and now a constitutional right to shoot terrorists.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 07, 2017 7:14 PM  

Anton wrote:so whether or not somebody takes a literal view of Odin or whoever is irrelevant. Also the only thing real about jesus is your faith that he existed.
Look, YOU are not a Teutonic knight. YOU are a self-entitled jerk. YOU are useless in the coming fight. YOU personally can go yank to pictures of Thor all you like. YOU don't matter, and YOU're not worth bothering to ally ourselves with.
Nobody cares about your incessant whingeing. Nobody cares what you think.

And more to the the point YOU don't believe in Odin either. You can be like Matthew Funk up above with elaborate explanations of why it doesn't matter that Odin doesn't exist. The fact is you don't believe it.

Anonymous Anton July 07, 2017 7:22 PM  

Matthew Funk - Good post "Germanization of early medieval Christianity" by James Russell is a good read for anybody interested. Or something as simple as their most significant holiday being the winter solstice aka Yule aka Koliada aka Saturnalia aka Christmas. The winter solstice holds zero significance to desert people. Decorate a tree on the winter solstice, pagan european, celebrate the spring equinox and paint eggs, pagan european. If you're a true Christian you should stop participating in our native european culture and celebrations.

Anonymous Anton July 07, 2017 7:41 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:

"Look, YOU are not a Teutonic knight. YOU are a self-entitled jerk. YOU are useless in the coming fight. YOU personally can go yank to pictures of Thor all you like. YOU don't matter, and YOU're not worth bothering to ally ourselves with.
Nobody cares about your incessant whingeing. Nobody cares what you think.

And more to the the point YOU don't believe in Odin either. You can be like Matthew Funk up above with elaborate explanations of why it doesn't matter that Odin doesn't exist. The fact is you don't believe it."

Well i don't believe in Odin because that's not my tribe but i assure you i very much believe in my Gods and the Gods of my ancestors. Differently than you, since i'm not a monotheist or Christian, but very much so. But by all means continue telling me what my spiritual beliefs are.

lol You're using terms like whining and whingeing to describe my posts. There is only one person getting emotional while posting in caps like a teenager screaming.

So you're not willing to align with, are openly hostile toward and hating your fellow European brethren.You are a true Teutonic Knight! Congrats.

People like you are the problem, you're a christian before anything else, no loyalty to your people because your people are christians and only christians. Have you found a nice african brother- in-christ for your daughter to marry yet?

Blogger Elizabeth July 07, 2017 7:41 PM  

S1AL wrote:"After the Christians took control of the Roman Empire, Christianity spread from the top down, both inside and later outside of the Empire."

This is absurd. One of the primary reasons that the Romans began persecuting Christianity throughout the Empire was the rapid spread of Christianity through the rank and file of the legions. The first Christian emperor was CONSTANTINE. That was the 4th century AD, at which point the Church was so widely established that the first ecumenical council was composed of over 250 major bishops.


About 5-10% of the Roman population was Christian at the time of the Edict of Milan in 313 granting tolerance to Christians. Christians gradually gained more and more political and economic power in the Roman Empire (with the brief hiccup of Julian) and eventually outlawed pagan practice. It was the early medieval policy of the Roman Catholic Church to focus on converting rulers and nobles, who would then order and, if necessary, force, their subjects to convert.

Blogger ZhukovG July 07, 2017 7:46 PM  

The Pagan Religion's future ended 2000 years ago. It is less useful to LARP belief in the (insert pantheon of your choice here) than it is to believe that National Socialism has a future.

Even if Christianity is doomed (highly unlikely given our resiliency and our capacity for gratuitous violence, for which we are justly famous), it will not be replaced by Paganism.

Blogger Fenris Wulf July 07, 2017 7:48 PM  

I couldn't resist...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxnlKkSk-hw

Blogger S1AL July 07, 2017 8:24 PM  

"About 5-10% of the Roman population was Christian at the time of the Edict of Milan in 313 granting tolerance to Christians."

What's your source on this?

Regardless of that, it certainly doesn't support your assertion.

Anonymous Sertorius July 07, 2017 8:48 PM  

Snidely Whiplash @105-- Believe me, I hope that you are right. But aren't megachurches (though with state of the art sound systems) LARPing their way through the Gospels? For myself, the question of modernity--and whether it has irrevocably changed the human capacity for experiencing Grace--remains an open question.

Anonymous Deadmau5 Patton July 07, 2017 8:49 PM  

"The Pagan Religion's future ended 2000 years ago. "

Hindus have existed since long before Christianity or it's predecessors, and are today stronger than the Christian diaspora in every respect other than hygiene. Obviously it isn't "western" paganism and I don't see mass conversion to Hinduism(though guru cults and yoga already attract tens if not hundreds of millions of whites) but who knows. Stranger things have happened.

It's probably absurd to think Christianity is the last religion. People have been saying that every time another religion comes along and they're always wrong.

More absurd, in my opinion, is the idea that we can continually reinvent Christianity and one day we'll land on THE correct interpretation. It would be better if everyone went back to Orthodoxy, but I doubt they'd want all the arrogant "westerners" ruining their church with endless pushes for a new truth.

Blogger Tuatha July 07, 2017 9:10 PM  

Being a deist, I find these "odin 'n thor" vs. "deus vult" arguments to be pretentious and nerdy as fuck. At the end of the day, nobody with an IQ above 100 literally believes in the resurrection of a dead guy rotting in a tomb for 3 days or a thunder-blasting hammer god riding in a goat-drawn chariot through the skies. At best anyone with decent sense can admit is a Prime Mover or Ur-creator too intelligent and complex to be understood by human minds. The fact that practically all deities [including jesus/jehovah] behave and look like human beings is just another example of the universal tendency to anthropomorphise the unknown and inevitably render it as the cultural product of archetypes and myths.

Blogger S1AL July 07, 2017 9:31 PM  

"At the end of the day, nobody with an IQ above 100 literally believes in the resurrection of a dead guy rotting in a tomb for 3 days or a thunder-blasting hammer god riding in a goat-drawn chariot through the skies."

You'd have no idea what IQ even is if it weren't for thousands of years of people believing in a literal resurrection.

It's always fascinating to me when people project their fence-sitting self-righteousness on everyone else.

Blogger Elizabeth July 07, 2017 9:43 PM  

S1AL (where are the numbers?) -

I read a great deal of history.

Rodney Stark reckoned that the number of Christians was around 10% Other historians think fewer.

Beginning with Constantine (baptized on his deathbed), the Church gained imperial favor and gradually grew in wealth and power. More and more legal disabilities (sacrifices prohibited, temples destroyed) were heaped upon pagans until paganism was effectively outlawed. With that, came the burnings for heresy of Priscillian and six of his followers in 383.

Blogger Lazarus July 07, 2017 9:43 PM  

Deadmau5 Patton: More absurd, in my opinion, is the idea that we can continually reinvent Christianity and one day we'll land on THE correct interpretation. It would be better if everyone went back to Orthodoxy, ...

The last pure Orthodoxy was encapsulated in the Prison Epistles of St. Paul.
Any "Church" organization after that is suspect.

Yes, I said "any".

Blogger Robert What? July 07, 2017 9:46 PM  

There are plenty of Whites in Latin America. We tend to think they are all Meztizos because they are the ones flooding our borders. The Whites don't come here as much because they have ... you know ... jobs. When they do come here they come as professional, students and tourists.

Blogger Lazarus July 07, 2017 9:55 PM  

Tuatha: nobody with an IQ above 100 literally believes in the resurrection of a dead guy rotting in a tomb for 3 days ...

You are literally wrong in a manner of epic proportions. I hope this is not a Deist tendency. If so , one would have to conclude that Deists are literally morons.

Anonymous andon July 07, 2017 10:13 PM  

There are plenty of Whites in Latin America.

yeah, but are they really white or just mixed? on another forum they talk about Brazil calling 60/40 mix as white, that kind of thing. i think most govts dont want you to know how far its gone already

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) July 07, 2017 10:29 PM  

The pagans are even dumber than the atheists

Blogger Thucydides July 07, 2017 10:35 PM  

An interesting description of modern paganism can be found in Neil Gaiman's book "American Gods", when the character of Odin questions a young woman who claims to be pagan. He asks her to name the gods she worships, what she does to honour them, how she sacrifices to them etc., which she eventually retreats mumbling something to the effect of "it doesn't matter, it's what makes me feel good". (Apologies for the paraphrase, but its been quite a while since I read this).

Probably not an original observation, but the modern version of the Mystery religions seems to be the various indoctrination cults the Progressives foster in institutions of higher learning. You can be indoctrinated into the mysteries of Feminism, "Victim Studies" [insert victim group here], radical environmentalism, socialist and Keynesian economics or whatever other twisted version of reality Cultural Marxists can create. Unlike older Mystery religions, there is a public worship side to these new Mystery religions, and they borrow from Christianity in dealing with heretics (metaphorically) burning them at the stake and making them outcasts. Unlike Odinists, they truly DO believe, and are wiling to act on these beliefs as well. This is bad in the short run, since few people even now are willing to fight back, but like religious zealots in other times and places, they will turn on each other and the bloodletting will be far more ferocious than anything they can try and impose on the "Red" counties of America. Indeed, given the shape of the electoral map by county, when they get thrown back and isolated in their "Blue enclaves", the infighting for power, influence and control of the dwindling resource base will make Stalingrad or the Siege of Sarajevo look like a picnic.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener July 07, 2017 10:35 PM  

And they're less convincing larpers than the trannies.

Blogger ZhukovG July 07, 2017 11:11 PM  

@andon: If I recall, Argentina is about 80% White European. The European Settlers had rather 'severe' policies with regard to the indigenous folks.

Anonymous Deadmau5 Patton July 07, 2017 11:13 PM  

@Lazarus
"The last pure Orthodoxy was encapsulated in the Prison Epistles of St. Paul.
Any "Church" organization after that is suspect."

I agree, but as imperfect as orthodoxy is, I think all the adjustments that have been made in search of something even more pure have had the exact opposite effect. So much so that I think Christianity will likely not last much longer.

But predictions aren't worth a whole lot.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) July 07, 2017 11:16 PM  

Any "Church" organization after that is suspect.

Yes, I said "any".


Do you regularly attend church services?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 07, 2017 11:52 PM  

Tuatha said
Being a deist, I find these "odin 'n thor" vs. "deus vult" arguments to be pretentious and nerdy as fuck. At the end of the day, nobody with an IQ above 100 literally believes in the resurrection of a dead guy rotting in a tomb for 3 days or a thunder-blasting hammer god riding in a goat-drawn chariot through the skies. At best anyone with decent sense can admit is a Prime Mover or Ur-creator too intelligent and complex to be understood by human minds.
You know that midwit syndrome Vox often talks about, where somebody with a 115 IQ literally cannot understand what's being said? Where somebody who's been counted as smart all his life because of lack of competition thinks he's the smartest person in the room when he's clearly one of the stupidest.

That's you.

I literally believe that Jesus Christ physically rose from the dead. It's extremely unlikely you can even come close to my IQ. And unlike you, I actually use my brain for thinking, rather than posing as superior.

Your "Deism" is a pretentious and rather pathetic attempt to strike a pose of being above it all. Deism isn't a serious stance, and hasn't been in 200 years.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 07, 2017 11:53 PM  

Josh (the gayest thing here) said:
The pagans are even dumber than the atheists

And the Deists are dumber than the Pagans.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper July 07, 2017 11:54 PM  

Tuatha: I hate to pile on but lots of educated people believe in the Resurrection. Its one of the easiest to accept religious stories . The subset that doesn't is mostly weak Protestant and in Europe

Thucydides, Gaiman got that only partially correct. Heathens Western/Northern, Baltic and Hellenic do still sacrifice and perform rites that their Gods would probably understand . Pagans like Wiccans don't

That said our biggest problem is fertility and in modernity its not correlated with religion in the broader society. Zealous people, Quiverfull, LDS other yes but they don't have that high retention and are outliers

Generally fertility is tied to national morale at least in Scandinavia and Russia. After a special national sport win there was an Icelandic mini baby boom and a very effective Do It For Denmark ad campaign made Danes happy enough to have more kids. We also see it in Russia after Putin (went from 1.2 to 1.7)

For religion to have an effect it will have to increase happiness and modern Christianity doesn't do that for many.

Also while we need to expel foreigners I'm hard pressed to think why Germany for example needs more people . Oregon for example is hellishly crowded at near 4 million people and Germany has 15x the population density !

Anonymous Simplytimothy July 07, 2017 11:57 PM  

I literally believe.

Vox talks about how the recognition of cognizant, purposeful evil led him to Christ.

John C. Wright....who I gather is not sub 100 IQ..know the risen Lord.

Now, if you want to argue that Vox and JCW are insane, anti-intellectual no-wits, then please entertain us.

Anonymous Unamused Flyover Resident July 08, 2017 12:06 AM  

"At the end of the day, nobody with an IQ above 100 literally believes in the resurrection of a dead guy rotting in a tomb for 3 days ..."

Yeah dude, keep telling us how dim Tolkien and Lewis were. We never tire of that story.

Anonymous Unamused Flyover Resident July 08, 2017 12:12 AM  

While I'm at it let me put in a plug for my tiny denomination: the Anglican Church of America.

An Anglo-Catholic denomination NOT affiliated with the Church of England or the Episcopalians, we use the 1928 Book of Common Prayer, believe in the real presence, and "take communion devoutly kneeling" at the altar rail.

Blogger Andrew Taylor July 08, 2017 12:24 AM  

I am happy to wear the cross and profess the faith as a matter of public propriety, but my passion too is for Oriental initiations.

Anonymous Unamused Flyover Resident July 08, 2017 12:28 AM  

Oops, Anglican Church IN America.

That's what I get for commenting from a bar patio.

But seriously, nice, devout, bunch of well-reasoned believers who take their faith seriously.

Blogger Were-Puppy July 08, 2017 12:38 AM  

Anybody else catch the part recently where Macron declares himself a god in the mold of Jupiter? Maybe he's going to try the Julian thing himself.

Anonymous Deadmau5 Patton July 08, 2017 1:00 AM  

Josh says he's the gayest thing here, but in actuality, everyone on this blog who constantly feels the need to state that they have a high IQ is the gayest thing here.

It so happens to be the gayest thing of all time anywhere in the universe.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 08, 2017 1:05 AM  

Deadmau5 Patton said some stupid shit
No, you're the gayest thing here. Sorry, but the biggest faggots aren't necessarily homosexual.

Blogger FrankNorman July 08, 2017 1:34 AM  

I literally believe that Jesus Christ physically rose from the dead. It's extremely unlikely you can even come close to my IQ. And unlike you, I actually use my brain for thinking, rather than posing as superior.


Preach it brother!

Blogger Matthew Funk July 08, 2017 1:40 AM  

Sincere question for any/all Christians,

If a person is agnostic on the question of deities, is an agnostic non-religious person or an agnostic religious practitioner more desirable in your eyes? Without getting into the question as to whether a person should be an agnostic, is one type of agnostic preferable to the other? I expect answers to vary from Christian to Christian. Is it perceived that an agnostic is disingenuous for participating in religious practices or supporting a religious organization/theology or is an agnostic who practices but simply admits at the end of the day that they aren't confident one way or the other as to the existence of the deity/deities being worshipped an acceptable congregant in your eyes? If someone said that they were convinced by the Gospel but weren't certain enough to proclaim it as absolute fact, is such a person a legitimate representation of the Christian faith or not? Why or why not?

Anonymous Verita July 08, 2017 2:49 AM  

For what it's worth, most of the "views" Vox tends to express, if you can call them "views", actually seem to be more in line with atheistic utilitarianism than any Christian philosophy.

His love of "Christianity" just seems to be a fertilization of imagery such as Crusaders which has some nationalistic fervor, and of course that isn't "Christianity", just vanilla nationalism no different than types of rhetoric used by communist regimes.

Vox for example has some nerdy fetishization of "scientific progress", "STEM', "going to Mars", and all that, which ties in pretty well with techno-progressivist and utilitarians like Sam Harris, John Stuart Mill, and has very little if any basis in any actual Christian philosophy or theology; not that science is bad, but that trying to achieve a utopia or enlightenment through science and material things is definitely at odds with Christianity and most other Easter religion, which stress the important of inner development and wisdom rather than the external and the material.

Based on the views he espouses, I'd have to conclude he's not a Christian or even a conservative, just a vanilla utilitarian who happens to support some "right-wing" social policies, but a utilitarian nonetheless, and a wolf in sheep's clothing. I won't say this means he's "damned", but I see much of his misinformation leading any true kool aid drinker of his on a damning path if they want to truly understand Christianity.

Blogger SirHamster July 08, 2017 3:15 AM  

If someone said that they were convinced by the Gospel but weren't certain enough to proclaim it as absolute fact, is such a person a legitimate representation of the Christian faith or not? Why or why not?

The most important part of the Christian faith is not how Christians will judge you. It is how Jesus will judge you. Here is a passage where Jesus describes his standard of judgement:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’


Note that Jesus does not speak here of intensity of belief or lack of doubts. Rather, he describes actions reflecting a lifestyle driven by certain priorities.

That said, I believe that if you desire belief and ask God for it, you will get it. But I recommend you look up Wright's conversion story before following that path. There are some things you should not ask for lightly.

Blogger FrankNorman July 08, 2017 3:20 AM  

Verita July 08, 2017 2:49 AM

For what it's worth, most of the "views" Vox tends to express, if you can call them "views", actually seem to be more in line with atheistic utilitarianism than any Christian philosophy.


Vox wrote a book in which he demolished the arguments of the New Atheists, the so-called "Brights", largely by using their own type of reasoning against them. That may be what you are picking up. And he's far from the only Christian who makes the case that Secular Rationalism cannot stand on its own feet or fulfill its promises.


His love of "Christianity" just seems to be a fertilization of imagery such as Crusaders which has some nationalistic fervor, and of course that isn't "Christianity", just vanilla nationalism no different than types of rhetoric used by communist regimes.


I think you need to read more of what he has posted, not just a few recent posts.

Blogger SirHamster July 08, 2017 3:21 AM  

Based on the views he espouses, I'd have to conclude he's not a Christian or even a conservative, just a vanilla utilitarian who happens to support some "right-wing" social policies, but a utilitarian nonetheless, and a wolf in sheep's clothing.

You liar. A Christian shows charity and gives benefit of the doubt. He is not quick to false witness and accusation.
https://voxday.blogspot.com/2016/03/he-is-risen.html

But you project your own nature, wolf in sheep's clothing.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 08, 2017 4:21 AM  

Verita wrote:Based on the views he espouses, I'd have to conclude he's not a Christian or even a conservative, just a vanilla utilitarian who happens to support some "right-wing" social policies, but a utilitarian nonetheless, and a wolf in sheep's clothing. I won't say this means he's "damned", but I see much of his misinformation leading any true kool aid drinker of his on a damning path if they want to truly understand Christianity.
If you have questions ask. You're absolutely, terribly, in every possible way wrong.

Blogger Scott Cameron July 08, 2017 6:14 AM  

It's impossible for Europeans to return to their so-called ancestral religion. For one, we don't know all of the rites and rituals. What we know has been passed down to us through secondhand sources.

But even if we knew literally everything about the ancient Druids, Goths, mystery cults, etc, we couldn't practice their religions today. Their religions were a function of how they perceived the world. They perceived the world mythically and superstitiously.

The alt-right neopagans can "worship" nature, but not in a pantheistic sense, and they sure as hell are not going to practice shamanism.

Alt-right neopaganism is not a religion. It's a male fraternal order with viking trappings.

Blogger Tuatha July 08, 2017 8:44 AM  

"You are literally wrong in a manner of epic proportions. I hope this is not a Deist tendency. If so , one would have to conclude that Deists are literally morons"

I apologise for my rudeness. I forgot some people here are very sensitive.

"I hate to pile on but lots of educated people believe in the Resurrection"

Lots of "educated people" also believe that the protocols of zion are a hoax and that race doesn't exist but what does that make them?

"Yeah dude, keep telling us how dim Tolkien and Lewis were"

Tolkien was a judeophilic crypto-queer who supported the absolute destruction of the one force capable of obliterating the judeo-masonic lodges from further corrupting the world, which were heavily invested [and still are] in his own country. The same thing that destroyed his nation and the whole west was one he eagerly supported, even going so far as to say that he would make a better soldier for the second Great War than the first simply because he hated Germany so much. What really shows tolkien's lack of mental deduction is the rather tragic and constant moaning in his last years of the industrialisation of his homeland into a soulless steel cage nothing like the old country he knew as a boy. Apparently it never crossed the old fag's head that the "gifted people" he admired in his letters were the enablers of his own people's ruin.
The only thing needed to conclude lewis in nutshell, is that anyone who called himself an atheist because he hates god is a moron. Even tolkien could tell lewis was a birdbrain with his blatant and overuse of christian allegory that he regretted even trying to 'convert' him to christianity.

Blogger FrankNorman July 08, 2017 9:05 AM  

The only thing needed to conclude lewis in nutshell, is that anyone who called himself an atheist because he hates god is a moron. Even tolkien could tell lewis was a birdbrain with his blatant and overuse of christian allegory that he regretted even trying to 'convert' him to christianity.

Did you come up with that one by yourself, or did you copy-paste from some Atheist website?
Anyone who calls CS Lewis a "birdbrain" is either pig-ignorant or a deliberate troll.

Blogger Josh (the gayest thing here) July 08, 2017 10:04 AM  

Americans have never been pagan. If the pagans want to practice paganism, they can move to Europe. They are fake Americans. They have to go back.

Blogger Tuatha July 08, 2017 11:22 AM  

"Did you come up with that one by yourself, or did you copy-paste from some Atheist website?
Anyone who calls CS Lewis a "birdbrain" is either pig-ignorant or a deliberate troll."

Its my own observation. Lewis was a fucking retard with no iota of a neuron in his tiny head. He was so stupid that he bought pascal's wager-the absolute dumbest argument ever conceived-hook, line, and sinker. I know what the obese shit-for-brains said and wrote. I have read Mere Christianity beginning to end. His whole line of thinking is the worst sort of diabetic autism that I have ever seen outside of antifa and 'brony nationalists'.

Blogger Chris Northern July 08, 2017 11:30 AM  

@Roundtine - Protestantism might be a symptom rather than a cause. See Bavaria.

Interesting point. I'm unsure if that example supports my point or reduces it to rubble. The CSU is interesting, and I note that the populaton was/is at least significantly Protestant. Teasing cause and effect out this was never going to be easy.

I'm going to run on a bit while I'm here. Fell free to ignore the rest of this.

The idea that Religeon can be considered as a blueprint for how 'society' should be leads easily into an analysis of economic success & failure by specific applications of given religeons onto societies.

Pagan societys, where they still exist, seem to have pretty much zero economic activity. For my money, that makes Paganism a poor blueprint for society. For Atheism, see the Soviet Union... yes, that it was also Communist muddies the waters a bit, but no sane person could call it a success, certainly not an economic one - is the recovery of Russian Orthadoxy influencing economic revival? It's obviously too soon to tell. Catholic vs Protestant seems to have at least some correlation with economic success, and the USA is economically the most robust on the planet... is that the USA is predominantly Protestant a cooincidence, or is it that that blueprint for how 'society' should be the most effective?

I'm completely ignoring faith, belief, spirituality when pointing roughly in that direction and wondering about it. That Religeons evolve is clear as glass. Evolution favours the most successful, but also allows good enough solutions. To be as successful as possible it is probably advisable to adopt the most successful system and run with it.

On a personal note, I am a Christian by recent choice, recent awareness of the fact that I always was a Christian because I was raised in a Christain society and internalised those ideas as I grew up (to the extent that it can be said that I have done so - grasping the ideas of Jordan B Peterson's Maps of Meaning certainly helped & I recommend them for anyone thinking about their faith, whatever it might be, at all). I would until recently have described myself fairly flippently as a 'Pagan Zen Buddhist.' I'm still fine with those ideas, but am working on Christanity in my own mind because I think that those ideas map onto realiy most accurately and produce better results for society and the individual.

Just a side note before I go do other things. Rigid and absolute ideas don't tend to survive well when forced onto reality. Better to be a little bit fluid in one's thinking, I've found.

Blogger FrankNorman July 08, 2017 12:04 PM  


Its my own observation. Lewis was a fucking retard with no iota of a neuron in his tiny head. He was so stupid that he bought pascal's wager-the absolute dumbest argument ever conceived-hook, line, and sinker. I know what the obese shit-for-brains said and wrote. I have read Mere Christianity beginning to end. His whole line of thinking is the worst sort of diabetic autism that I have ever seen outside of antifa and 'brony nationalists'.


If you really think that CS Lewis used Pascal's Wager, then no, you have not read Mere Christianity or any of his other serious works. If you had, you would be able to state the arguments he actually used.

Do you really think that Oxford and Cambridge college gives academic positions to people of low intelligence?

So no, you do not know what you are talking about - and you are talking here to people who do.

Screaming "you're a retard!" at anyone who says something you have no answer for is quite a tell about yourself.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 08, 2017 12:13 PM  

Tuatha wrote:Its my own observation.
Secret genius is here to educate us all.

F***ing moron.

Anonymous A.B. Prosper July 08, 2017 1:47 PM  

Scott Cameron wrote:It's impossible for Europeans to return to their so-called ancestral religion. For one, we don't know all of the rites and rituals. What we know has been passed down to us through secondhand sources.

But even if we knew literally everything about the ancient Druids, Goths, mystery cults, etc, we couldn't practice their religions today. Their religions were a function of how they perceived the world. They perceived the world mythically and superstitiously.

The alt-right neopagans can "worship" nature, but not in a pantheistic sense, and they sure as hell are not going to practice shamanism.

Alt-right neopaganism is not a religion. It's a male fraternal order with viking trappings.


That was a very good post.

I might quibble a bit though, people are still worshipping nature to a great degree and still see thr world in much the same way. Christianity is also mystical, its existence is entuirely dependent on supernatural things, magic, miracles, spirit worlds (heaven, hell, purgatory for Catholics) monsters good and bad. Its not that different really .

Shamanism is also still taught and still has practictioners in the modern West. Its not exactly the same rites as the ancients used but the goals from what we can tell from living traditions (its quite a living tradition) and experiences are identical. Its probably more useful in fact than many forms of psycology and psyciatry

Also its not really a male fraternal order, though we really need more of those. Its an actual very minor religion with male and female members. There are arguments in the faith over social issues and the nature and structure of Gods but these aren't foreign to Christianity either.

Snidley, man entitled to his opinion even is he is wrong. Need to consider it a bit more though Tuatha, since you really don't "get" Lewis if you think he was stupid or Tolkein for that matter or Chesterton . These are smart men.

Also re: Pascals Wager , well look at it this way, Lets say you decide to go Christian. Unless Islam is the true religion worse case scenrio, you have a community of like minded people and good satisfing spiritual path and are dead when you die. Overall Christianity makes things better

Looking at the worlds religions, the only one that has a negative effect if you are Christian is Islam, All others have none. Hinduism, you still reincarnate, Heathensty, still go to Helheim. Judiasm, still dead. Athiesm , So on.

This weights the wager in favor of Christianity since its beautiful and useful. It doesn't beed to be true to have value.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 08, 2017 4:08 PM  

"You're heard of Aristotle? Plato? Socrates? Morons!"

Blogger S1AL July 08, 2017 4:27 PM  

Snidely, he's an alt-Reich'er. Basically "positive Christianity"-level apostate nonsense. You're not going to convince the Secret King.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 08, 2017 4:52 PM  

S1AL wrote:You're not going to convince the Secret King.
I'm not here to convince.
I'm here to drink beer and mock the gamma.
And I'm all out of beer.

Oh, crap, gotta run to the store.

Blogger S1AL July 08, 2017 5:10 PM  

Pfft, beer. You pleb.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 08, 2017 5:21 PM  

S1AL wrote:Pfft, beer. You pleb.
I've never claimed to be anything other than a genius-level working class Joe.

Blogger S1AL July 08, 2017 5:28 PM  

Well, I'll drink to that. Just not beer.

Blogger Tuatha July 08, 2017 6:17 PM  

"Do you really think that Oxford and Cambridge college gives academic positions to people of low intelligence?"

If they let someone like Richard Dawkins in, they will let anyone with the right words enter. If I wanted I could easily go to oxford and get at least three positions there if I wanted without much effort.

"mock the gamma"
I love it when you try to doxx me. They never get anything right.

"I've never claimed to be anything other than a genius-level working class Joe."

I think its about time you admitted you fap to trannies. Am I right or am I right?

Blogger Tuatha July 08, 2017 6:37 PM  

"Snidely, he's an alt-Reich'er"

Not true. I despise the entire alt-right from white nationalist pigs like richard spencer to image seekers like milo the boy-fucker to the 'alt-west' apes following a pseudo-tradition from the enlightenment era [i.e the u.s constitution] as the panacea to fix the decay of the world. An example of someone who actually thinks like me would be this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB7emV6ky3w

Blogger S1AL July 08, 2017 6:48 PM  

Sure thing, wanna-Nazi. If you just dissemble harder, nobody will notice what you are! Tilt on, oh valiant slayer of windmills.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 08, 2017 7:02 PM  

Tuatha wrote:I love it when you try to doxx me. They never get anything right.
Doxx you? AYFKM? Who'd care?

Gamma super secret genius am Super Smart! Compared to Super Secret Genius, Tolkein, Lewis, Einstein, Feinman, Aristotle are idiots!!!!! He am smartest guy in the world!

Blogger Tuatha July 08, 2017 9:04 PM  

"e am smartest guy in the world"

I must ask, do you have any children?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 08, 2017 10:36 PM  

I must ask, do you have any balls?

Blogger Tuatha July 08, 2017 11:06 PM  

"do you have any balls?"

More than you.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 08, 2017 11:26 PM  

Tuatha wrote:"do you have any balls?"

More than you.

Is that based on the same set of facts that led you to conclude that you are smarter than C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkein? Aka wishful thinking, unwarranted self-regard and GOTIS

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 08, 2017 11:50 PM  

Tuatha wrote:"do you have any balls?"

More than you.

WTF? Three? Four? More?

Blogger FrankNorman July 09, 2017 3:01 AM  


Not true. I despise the entire alt-right from white nationalist pigs like richard spencer to image seekers like milo the boy-fucker to the 'alt-west' apes following a pseudo-tradition from the enlightenment era [i.e the u.s constitution] as the panacea to fix the decay of the world.


Why are you here then?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 09, 2017 3:34 AM  

FrankNorman wrote:Why are you here then?
Secret Sooper Genius has to demonstrate his superiority.

Blogger Tuatha July 09, 2017 7:16 AM  

"Why are you here then?"

To test my knowledge on people. Its not much of a struggle to argue, but fighting gives me a purpose whether on the mental plane or the physical.

"and GOTIS"
I'm a guy dumbass. Just admit that lewis is your personal idol and the main reason for your hysterics is that I crushed his tiny head into dust and his legacy was shit to begin with.

"WTF? Three? Four? More?"
Autism much?

Blogger FrankNorman July 09, 2017 9:14 AM  

Just admit that lewis is your personal idol and the main reason for your hysterics is that I crushed his tiny head into dust and his legacy was shit to begin with.

And I put Mt Everest in a bottle and mounted on my mantleshelf.
:-P

Blogger James Dixon July 09, 2017 10:47 AM  

> At the end of the day, nobody with an IQ above 100 literally believes in the resurrection of a dead guy rotting in a tomb for 3 days.

> Based on the views he espouses, I'd have to conclude he's not a Christian...

Are some people compelled to come to Vox's blog just to demonstrate their idiocy to all and sundry?

> ... or even a conservative.

Well, he got that part right at least.

> I've never claimed to be anything other than a genius-level working class Joe.

I am so stealing that.

> To test my knowledge on people.

If your posts on this thread are a reasonable subset of your knowledge, you're wasting your time.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 09, 2017 1:42 PM  

Tuatha wrote:To test my knowledge on people. Its not much of a struggle to argue, but fighting gives me a purpose whether on the mental plane or the physical.
Dude. You're just embarrassing your self now.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash July 09, 2017 3:07 PM  

Tuatha wrote:"and GOTIS"

I'm a guy dumbass.

Assertion of facts not in evidence. And you're one of the many many faggets with girl on the internet syndrome.

Anonymous Dividualist July 10, 2017 7:20 AM  

Dear VD

Religions at some level reflect social structures. Julian's Empire, like our modern age, was a highly organized state with a fairly bureucratic life. God and Gods in both case reflect the near-universality, the largeness and complexity of society. What proponents of Paganism want is, in my opinion, to retire to structures smaller than the state, family, clan, small tribe, each having a distinct identity, its own little god or even better: worshipped ancestor. I think it is not the idea of a billion (?) white people worshipping Thor by the exact same rite organized by a church whose bureucracy ranges from San Francisco to Poland, I think it is obvious how Christianity is better for that purpose. I think they want to keep it small.

Blogger Matthew Funk July 10, 2017 3:29 PM  

Dividualist,

As a worshipper of Thor, your central point is correct. Our kindreds/clans/(biological) families/innangard are small structures and our primary focus. Even national/international heathen organizations put absolute primacy on local practice over centralized organization. Heathen structures, at least of the folkish variety, are pretty much uniform in their love of decentralization. One point of note is that there is a lot of middle ground between heathen irrelevancy and heathen domination. As a political/social force, we are currently nearly powerless. Our influence, in whole numbers, is pretty damned insignificant. On the macro level, our effect is absolutely microscopic. The goal I am aiming for and I truly believe is possible is simply numbers that are relatively small as a proportion of the entire population, but big enough that, in whole numbers, constitute a plethora of human and material resources and a broad network. If we numbered in the tens of thousands on a national level, it still wouldn't mean much for our ability to influence the trajectory of society or even the alt right specifically, on a macro level, but it would mean that any member internal to our ranks would have access to a diverse set of skill sets within their faith. Heathenism inherently has many properties of a mutual aid society and I would like to see us grow to the point that I can provide that for my future children. I have no desire to undermine or replace Christianity on the macro level. I'm not trying to pitch a NAXALT argument here, as the goal that I just shared is certainly juxtaposed with a lot of heathens who obviously believe very differently to myself. FWIW, I do actually take the argument into heathen circles to shift the "displace Christianity" goal (which I do not share) with the goal I just said. In other words, I don't think it's plausible that a billion white people will worship Thor even under a multitude of organizations. I'd be happy with enough people worshipping Thor that we simply had our own litte "La Cosa Nostra" A central part of this goal, in my opinion, is simply recognizing that our societies are overwhelmingly Christian and we should be gracious house guests, as per the Havamal.

Blogger Dane Prywatne July 11, 2017 6:36 AM  

Well .. is Japan a part of the West?

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