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Tuesday, August 29, 2017

A disappointment

‘Game Of Thrones’ Audience Disappointed By Season Finale’s Bland, Uninspired Incest

Criticizing the show’s reluctance to explore new creative ground, Game Of Thrones fans reported being disappointed Sunday by the bland, uninspired incest in the HBO drama’s season finale.

“You’d think this far into the show’s run they’d have found some new angles on incestuous relationships, but this was just more of the same, by-the-numbers intercourse between blood relatives we’ve seen before,” said local viewer Jaime Cohn, echoing the views of thousands of fans who complained about the series’ increasingly derivative depiction of sexual relations between siblings and other family members. “In the early seasons, it felt like the show’s creators weren’t afraid to take risks on fresh ideas like incest involving twins or even between multiple generations of the same family, but since then it hasn’t really progressed at all. By this point, they should be experimenting with things like group sex with identical quadruplets, but it’s pretty obvious that the writers are just on autopilot now.” 

Despite their disappointment with the episode’s lackluster incest, fans almost unanimously agreed that the show’s latest season had staked out bold new territory in terms of narrative implausibility.

As for myself, I was a little shocked. There has been no rape at all this entire season. Which would seem impossible for A Game of Thrones, until you recall that the series has passed the material from George RR Martin's novels. But I'm sure Martin will rectify this shocking and uncharacteristic omission when he finally gets around to writing the novelization of the TV series based on his previous novels.

There is still a long way to go, but I have to admit that I am increasingly confident that ARTS OF DARK AND LIGHT will eventually come to be seen as superior epic fantasy in comparison to A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE.

Labels: ,

147 Comments:

Anonymous DaveInjustice August 29, 2017 8:14 AM  

I guess the creators heard the buzz and decided they didn't want the legacy of the show to be "The Seinfeld of Rape"

Anonymous Gr8 Again August 29, 2017 8:14 AM  

I think the show has improved since it moved ahead of GRRM's novels. The narratives are less meandering and the dialogue is better. There are actually moments of humor to punctuate the general dreariness.

Blogger sykes.1 August 29, 2017 8:21 AM  

Perhaps The Mountain will rape Cersei.

Blogger SmockMan August 29, 2017 8:26 AM  

I almost didn't bother viewing this season, assuming it was on the same disaster path as last one. This season was better, despite all its problem. It made me actually want to watch the next.

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable August 29, 2017 8:26 AM  

Meh. Stopped watching after Season 3 ... although group sex with identical quadruplets might be a sufficiently compelling reason to catch the rest of the trainwreck.

Blogger Ron August 29, 2017 8:26 AM  

The Onion is one of the few sanity-based sources of comedy left.

Blogger S1AL August 29, 2017 8:29 AM  

That's what happens when godless heathens try to write epic fantasy - eventually they realize they don't believe in meaning or purpose, and the story reflects that. Even Martin's exceptional talent with word-smithing can't overcome that simple reality.

Martin 2018 - Make incest/rape great again?

Blogger OGRE August 29, 2017 8:30 AM  

@2 I'd disagree, strongly. The show has fallen off a cliff after moving past Martin, and Martin had taken quite a tumble himself after the third book. I'll grant that the narrative flow has, for the most part, been tighter and more focused this season, which is far more suitable for a television serial than that of the original novels. But the story is lacking and the plot points are forced, narrative and character consistencies have been tossed aside, and everything worthwhile about the series has been sacrificed on the altars of spectacle, political correctness, and GRRL POWER. Its a pale shadow of what it was just a few short years ago.

Its funny too that the show fails to do incest justice without Martin, and even Martin's incest can't compete with the poignancy and emotional intensity that comes so naturally in Tolkien's tale of Turin and Nienor.

Blogger Elocutioner August 29, 2017 8:33 AM  

"You've got sibling rape, eodipus rape, twin rape, you've got father-daughter rape, mother-son rape, cousin rape, creepy uncle rape, grandmother rape, grandfather rape, wedding rape, slave rape, random rape, dragon rape, prostitute rape ... and I guess that's about it." -GRRM

Anonymous Iron Spartan August 29, 2017 8:43 AM  

They have done a great job of setting up the Night King as an unstoppable force. Whats the over/under that they ruin the last season by making him fall to GRRL Power?

Blogger Harambe August 29, 2017 8:47 AM  

Iron Spartan wrote:They have done a great job of setting up the Night King as an unstoppable force. Whats the over/under that they ruin the last season by making him fall to GRRL Power?

I wonder if it's not going to be a matter of taking out the night king in the first half of the season, then some contrived political meanderings by Cersei and maybe she finally gets her comeuppance, or she retains the throne by the power of her bitchiness.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 29, 2017 8:53 AM  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txqiwrbYGrs

Blogger bw August 29, 2017 8:56 AM  

just more of the same, by-the-numbers intercourse between blood relatives we’ve seen before,” said local viewer Jaime Cohn

(((L O L)))

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 29, 2017 8:56 AM  

These filthy degenerates.

"Needs more incest, but more DIVERSE incest!"

Calm down Satan.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 29, 2017 8:59 AM  

"That's what happens when godless heathens try to write epic fantasy - eventually they realize they don't believe in meaning or purpose, and the story reflects that."

I realized this during book one. Read books 2-4 out of "duty" to someone close who bought them for me.

It's a sh**show all the way down.

Anonymous Gr8 Again August 29, 2017 9:00 AM  

I think people overstate the GRRL power in Game of Thrones. Dany isn't kicking people's asses in fights. She has power because of her supernatural resistance to flame and her connection to dragons. Cersei is a queen, but she's a stupid bitch that everyone hates. Sansa is currently ruling Winterfell, but doing so in a conventional way one would expect from a woman in that world. Brienne is a kickass GRRL power character, but she is a freak outcast who is unusually large physically - to make it at least plausible that she could fight men. (I realize it's still unrealistic, but it's a heck of a lot better than having 115 waifs kick ass like they do in the rest of pop culture.)

The only really absurd GRRL power main character is Arya.

Admittedly, there are several minor characters that exhibit GRRL power like Theon's sister and those ridiculous Dorne women. They're a bit hard to stomach.

Anonymous NZT August 29, 2017 9:00 AM  

No rape? You must have missed the scene where Cersei kisses Jaime, he clearly says "no", but she keeps going anyway and gives him a beej. If those roles were reversed the bluehair brigade would be on 5-alarm meltdown.

Blogger Ransom Smith August 29, 2017 9:13 AM  

Hasn't the show just devolved into Stronk women are Stronk?

I'll admit, I only watched the first episode and was so underwhelmed .

Blogger jaericho August 29, 2017 9:16 AM  

@8 This season has been the worst. Westeros discovered the teleporter and characters are zipping across the continent wrapping up story lines. HBO screwed the pooch, they wasted too much time in the last couple seasons following martin's books. Altho' admittedly I don't know when the books stopped and HBO was on their own. I'm assuming S5 and most of S6 were still following Martin.

Blogger Iowahine August 29, 2017 9:18 AM  

There is still a long way to go, but I have to admit that I am increasingly confident that ARTS OF DARK AND LIGHT will eventually come to be seen as superior epic fantasy in comparison to A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE.

Very plausible and extremely inspiring. Write on.

Blogger Iowahine August 29, 2017 9:18 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Matt August 29, 2017 9:25 AM  

There's really no reason for them to be a couple. Its forced because they're attractive. Sad!

Blogger B.J. August 29, 2017 9:28 AM  

Always thought that once the show eclipsed the books, Martin would lose all will to continue writing. Why bother finishing the story when all the major events have been spoIles for everyone? That's the problem with writing based on twist endings and dramatic shock moments.

Blogger CM August 29, 2017 9:30 AM  

Admittedly, there are several minor characters that exhibit GRRL power like Theon's sister and those ridiculous Dorne women. They're a bit hard to stomach.

Yeah, but they are mostly dead or captured, after getting their asses kicked.

And what was the biggest thing they contributed to the show? They murdered a 14 yo girl with poison. Just like a woman.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer August 29, 2017 9:42 AM  

Harambe wrote:Iron Spartan wrote:They have done a great job of setting up the Night King as an unstoppable force. Whats the over/under that they ruin the last season by making him fall to GRRL Power?

I wonder if it's not going to be a matter of taking out the night king in the first half of the season, then some contrived political meanderings by Cersei and maybe she finally gets her comeuppance, or she retains the throne by the power of her bitchiness.


In the last episode I was starting to get the sense that they are going to pull something like that.

I also think it's a real possibility that they have Sansa being the ultimate winner atop the iron throne. She defeated her mentor in the last episode while reconciling with her assassin sister. I could see John Snow and Daenerys sacrificing themselves to defeat the night king. Then Sansa having Arya take out Cersi. Assuming the show writers are at least following the high points and major events that Rape Rape is planning that seems like something Martin would do. It is clear he devoted a large portion of his books to the transformation of Sansa from a timid girl to a Strnnng Woman!

Blogger Felix Bellator August 29, 2017 9:48 AM  

Yes, the Dorne women fighting the Iron Islanders went down exactly as it should have, impaled and crushed by stronger, faster men. It happens faster when you pick weapons that only annoy armored people in a real fight.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 29, 2017 9:49 AM  

"Needs more incest, but more DIVERSE incest!"

Calm down Satan.


They're not hiding the end game very well anymore: parents having sex (or worse) with their kids. That's the final goal of all this perversion and taboo-breaking, and why anything short of it is unsatisfying to them now.

Blogger OGRE August 29, 2017 9:49 AM  

@19 I can't recall exactly which events occurred in which seasons of the show. I know that the books left off with Daenerys' flying off on the dragon and with Jon Snow's "death." So pretty much anything after those points on are more a product of the show's writers than of Martin. Although theres some overlap as the show changed events prior to those occurrences...Sansa's marriage to Bolton, Tyrion joining Dany's court. So probably around the end of season 5 and the beginning of 6 is when the show writers took over.

Anonymous Nick August 29, 2017 9:51 AM  

I've only watched episode 1, season 1, and read the first two books. I don't know if I'll bother reading book 3 (which by all accounts is the only other one worth it) or watching more. None of the female character narratives are compelling and I've been somewhat put off since Ned's sudden execution which seemed out of place and done purely for shock value. Martin's nihilism and amorality put me into a state of depression. For the sake of my soul and sanity I'll be better off not spending another moment on the series.

Blogger OGRE August 29, 2017 9:53 AM  

@25 Some idiot boy at Reason wrote an article yesterday saying how Sansa could 'inherit' the throne through Jon Snow/Targaryen. Although he completely overlooked the fact that titles don't fall out of a family line through inheritance and that Sansa has no Targaryen ancestors and thus would have no heridatary claim whatsoever. Of the characters in the show, after Jon and Dany (and possibly Tyrion), Gendry has the strongest claim to the throne as a bastard descendant of King Robert, who himself was descended from a Targaryen king (Robert and Danaerys are 2nd cousins).

Anonymous Azimus August 29, 2017 9:55 AM  

VD:
There is still a long way to go, but I have to admit that I am increasingly confident that ARTS OF DARK AND LIGHT will eventually come to be seen as superior epic fantasy in comparison to A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE.


By way of an encouragement to motivate to vanquish one's rivals, I would mention that it can never be compared favorably to a song of ice and fire if your epic is never written.

Blogger Cataline Sergius August 29, 2017 9:55 AM  

@22 Matt

According the outline the GRRM first submitted it was supposed to be Jon and Arya that hookup.

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) August 29, 2017 9:57 AM  

We did get to see dragons wreck shit this season, which was awesome. And now we have a freaking zombie ice dragon.

Anonymous Ted Dent August 29, 2017 9:58 AM  

This article explains you sad people

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/02/23/p.c.-culture-vs.-the-big-joke

"I'm sitting here at point of paralysis, trying to casually explain the rise of internet trolls, 4 chan, hardcore gamer culture, lulz, twitter-eggs, gamergate, pepe the frog, the alt-right, the rich asshole and how they came all crashing together in spectacular ugliness, but it's like trying to explain the mathematics of quantum mechanics (this article actually does a good job). But for the purposes of this conversation just know that all display a combo of 1) being virulently anti-PC. 2) being the kinds of people who have really sad, internal existences and internet they can be anonymous and escape into. And 3) a core philosophy that sees the value of what I will call "the big joke.""

Blogger dc.sunsets August 29, 2017 10:04 AM  

I don't watch GOT, but reading this (I assume) satire (difficult to know, these days) I thought GOT was written by Phillip Jose Farmer.

JC on the Dude Ranch seems like all that's left to explore.

Blogger OGRE August 29, 2017 10:08 AM  

@34 how sad it must be to find your smug self-satisfaction in posting a writing by someone else and trying to use their voice as your own in a vain attempt to feel morally superior in a meaningless world.

You shouldn't appropriate another's voice dude, that is not OK

Blogger J. T. K. August 29, 2017 10:09 AM  

ROTFLMAO

Blogger Gloriam Deo August 29, 2017 10:17 AM  

honestly, I didn't think they would really go through with the aunt/nephew incest. I was sure - and i still might be right - that jon gets revealed as the heir to the throne and then marries sansa to lock down the north. dany either dies fighting the night king or gets displaced.

unfortunately, since he bent the knee for no good reason, i think the writers are build to jon abdicating in favor of dany.

and lets keep in mind that dany brought a foreign hoard to ravage the nation she wants to rule. that hoard will likely not want to go back. if the writers were on top of their game, the series would end with jon leading reconquista in westeros.

Blogger Freelance Teacher August 29, 2017 10:20 AM  

Brienne will come out as Trans, then defeat the blue fire dragon and the night king, and all will say how the series is the best ever in the history of series. See how easy this is?

Anonymous basementhomebrewer August 29, 2017 10:21 AM  

OGRE wrote:@25 Some idiot boy at Reason wrote an article yesterday saying how Sansa could 'inherit' the throne through Jon Snow/Targaryen. Although he completely overlooked the fact that titles don't fall out of a family line through inheritance and that Sansa has no Targaryen ancestors and thus would have no heridatary claim whatsoever. Of the characters in the show, after Jon and Dany (and possibly Tyrion), Gendry has the strongest claim to the throne as a bastard descendant of King Robert, who himself was descended from a Targaryen king (Robert and Danaerys are 2nd cousins).

I am not saying it is going to make a whole lot of sense. It just seems it's heading that direction. I could see them setting up the scenario where no one else has substantial backing. They have been killing off leaders without replacing them over the past few seasons. Sansa, Tyrion and Euron would be the only ones left if Cersi, John and Daenarys get taken out. Of those Sansa has the most significant backing of people loyal to her.

I wouldn't be surprised if Tyrion m'lady's to her and in some contrived sense they finally consummate their marriage but Tyrion allows her the run of the show. Jaime backs his brother and then you would have the Lannisters, Starks and remaining Targaryen factions united under her rule.

I am not saying this is great writing or makes a whole lot of sense, but if the goal is to put Sansa on the throne (which I think it is) that is how they will get there.

Blogger Harambe August 29, 2017 10:23 AM  

If we wanted your opinion, we'd just read buzzfeed

Blogger Quilp August 29, 2017 10:30 AM  

I lost interest. I guess living in Mormon land has jaded me. RR's perversions no longer shock me.

Anonymous Precious August 29, 2017 10:33 AM  

Being the kinds of people who have really sad, internal existences

Wrong Ted, that is just you projecting. You are following the SJW law.

Blogger S1AL August 29, 2017 10:36 AM  

Yeah, that's ridiculous.

My internal existence is really quite cheerful.

Blogger OGRE August 29, 2017 10:45 AM  

@40 Oh I don't disagree that if they want Sansa to rule all of Westeros then they will make it happen. I'm just pointing out that Sansa has no hereditary claim, contrary to what the moron at Reason said; whether she might claim the throne through contrivance or force is another matter.

I think the more likely result, or at least what GRRM initially had in mind, is some type of representative republic or confederacy of kingdoms getting established as the ruling body over Westeros, ushered in by Tyrion. My gut feeling is that Tyrion is the true protagonist of the novel, with Jon and Dany being the more traditional protagonist types who are being set up for sensational, sacrificial, tragic deaths in the end. Tyrion is revealed as the bastard son of Aerys and Joanna Lanister and thus has a strong blood claim on the throne. But he uses his position to usher in a new age of democratic socialism and founds the Galactic Republic with Yoda.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 29, 2017 10:52 AM  

I've only watched episode 1, season 1, and read the first two books.

Then you've already read the good part. Book three gets frustrating, and four is a slog. I'm usually a completist; once I'm into a series, I'll plow through to the end past the point where I'm not enjoying it anymore. I bailed out near the end of book 4 or the beginning of book 5 -- can't even remember which, I was so numb by that point. One chapter of Cersei screeching at men or Dragon Girl wandering through the desert is much like another.

I haven't watched the show, but it's impossible not to hear about it. Fans (normal ones, not the perverts) seem to be attracted to the "medieval Sopranos" aspects of it. It's basically what RLM said about Rogue One: now that Star Wars is gritty, it's okay for adults to take it seriously. Adults who never watched fantasy before can watch this because it has boobs and adult topics. They don't rave about the incest, but the incest adds to the "adult" themes and keeps them from feeling like they're watching a make-believe kiddie show, so they accept it.

Anonymous Neobali August 29, 2017 10:52 AM  

Game of Thrones deconstructed everything except Girl Power. The level of feminist pandering recently is through the roof. Everything is fake. Only Girl Power is real.

Game of Thrones became popular as "fantasy but realistic". GRRM himself endlessly brags about how his series is the real deal because it's realistic n' shiet. I don't think he can plausibly claim that anymore. Especially if the remaining books are going to be anything like the the seasons of the TV series.

Blogger S1AL August 29, 2017 10:59 AM  

"Adults who never watched fantasy before can watch this because it has boobs and adult topics. They don't rave about the incest, but the incest adds to the "adult" themes and keeps them from feeling like they're watching a make-believe kiddie show, so they accept it."

The irony of it being that, by the end of book 1, GRRM had solved at least three major plot knots with "lol cause magic", but without any of the explanation or cool factor associated with traditional fantasy.

Anonymous CPEG August 29, 2017 11:03 AM  

"According the outline the GRRM first submitted it was supposed to be Jon and Arya that hookup."

Wh...
Are you joking?
You better be bloody joking.
Sadly, I can't tell. GRRM.

Anonymous Panzer Man August 29, 2017 11:05 AM  

@34

Hi Tiny Duck! How's it going, ol' quacker?

Do all your "handles" follow the "T.D." pattern so that your paymasters can readily identify you, and thus figure out that you're actually posting and earning whatever they're paying you for this threadbare ducktalk?

Or are you just obsessed with the letters T and D at the start of two short names? I'd like to suggest you go with "Total Dud" next. "Trite Douche" is probably too long too, you seem to like keeping each element at 4 letters or less. "True Dork?" "Turd Dunk?" There are plenty of apt possibilities.

Anonymous NZT August 29, 2017 11:09 AM  

On reflection the show really has gotten far away from the likely trajectory of the books:

- There was just one short action scene in Meereen before Dany left, whereas the book implies there will be a massive battle with 3-4 armies present
- Jon as "Aegon Targaryen" vs. Aegon as a separate person leading the Golden Company
- Euron's dragon-hypnotizing trumpet totally gone (seems like it'll be a big plot point in the books)
- Sansa married Ramsey instead of... whoever it was in the books (seems like it will lead to huge differences in how things play out in the North)
- Jon and Arya don't have warg powers in the show
- Whatever conspiracy was going on at Oldtown in the books is totally gone in the show

...and on and on. For as much as the books became deadly dull and meandering in 4 & 5, they're still better than the show in that they make the characters more nuanced and morally grey, while the show is now chock full of Mary Sues and cringeworthy SLAY QUEEN applause moments.

Anonymous I lolled August 29, 2017 11:14 AM  

MY KNIGHT-DRAGON-DWARF STORY WASN'T VERY GOOD AND I'M UPSET ABOUT IT IN THESE SPECIFIC WAYS:

Blogger Stephen Davenport August 29, 2017 11:15 AM  

How can it be incest if they do not know they are committing incest yet? As far as they know, ones a Snow and the other is a Targaryen. Just because the audience knows does not mean the characters at that moment know.

Anonymous fop August 29, 2017 11:16 AM  

Boring.

John Waters was doing incest, chicken bestiality, and lobster transvestite rape like 50 years ago.

STEP IT UP YOU HOLLYWOOD FREAKS!

Blogger Cail Corishev August 29, 2017 11:24 AM  

The irony of it being that, by the end of book 1, GRRM had solved at least three major plot knots with "lol cause magic",

Right. When they say it's realistic, they mean people treat each other badly. Their cop shows and superhero movies aren't realistic either, but these days they're gritty and the people do shitty things to each other, which means they're for adults.

Anonymous Viiidad August 29, 2017 11:24 AM  

Matt wrote:There's really no reason for them to be a couple. Its forced because they're attractive. Sad!

The Lucas effect.

Anonymous Viiidad August 29, 2017 11:26 AM  

GOT is like eating out of a sun-baked maggot-dripping trash can. Why?

Anonymous fop August 29, 2017 11:28 AM  

I personally won't watch unless there is a dragon raping some quintuplet babies with a crucifix and Donald Trump nailed to it.

(((Hollywood writing staff you are free to steal the idea. I relinquish all copyrights.)))

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( You are Welcome ... to go back to the hell hole you came from ) August 29, 2017 11:29 AM  

34. Ted Dent August 29, 2017 9:58 AM
This article explains you sad people


IF
you "know" that we live to Trigger big babies and stupid cunts
THEN
why would you confess to us that you're a big baby and a stupid cunt?

Anonymous Viiidad August 29, 2017 11:29 AM  

Ted Dent wrote:This article explains you sad people

(full retard link)

"I'm sitting here at point of paralysis, trying to casually explain the rise of internet trolls, 4 chan, hardcore gamer culture, lulz, twitter-eggs, gamergate, pepe the frog, the alt-right, the rich asshole and how they came all crashing together in spectacular ugliness, but it's like trying to explain the mathematics of quantum mechanics (this article actually does a good job). But for the purposes of this conversation just know that all display a combo of 1) being virulently anti-PC. 2) being the kinds of people who have really sad, internal existences and internet they can be anonymous and escape into. And 3) a core philosophy that sees the value of what I will call "the big joke.""


What - not coming back to add law #3 to a demonstration of the first two?

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( You are Welcome ... to go back to the hell hole you came from ) August 29, 2017 11:43 AM  

36. OGRE August 29, 2017 10:08 AM
You shouldn't appropriate another's voice dude, that is not OK



Mansplainers gonna Mansplain.

and Film Crit Hulk has been tarded ever since GamerGate. i think Vivian ate his brains.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 29, 2017 11:44 AM  

@27. Cail Corishev, really?

"They're not hiding the end game very well anymore: parents having sex (or worse) with their kids. That's the final goal of all this perversion and taboo-breaking, and why anything short of it is unsatisfying to them now."

This is a serious failure of imagination. Try:

"Sadomasochistic Satanist homosexual tricurious caretakers "guiding" their paraemancipated "students" into the wonder of para-adulthood.

Actually, that's a serious failure of emancipation I MEAN IMAGINATION too.

Evil has no bottom.

Blogger Koanic August 29, 2017 11:45 AM  

I wonder whether Vox anticipated that his literary career would be largely spent picking on a perverted dwarf and an ex-cripple.

Anonymous kfg August 29, 2017 11:50 AM  

"How can it be incest if they do not know they are committing incest yet?"

If they are closely related. Do the questions get harder as they go along?

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 29, 2017 11:57 AM  

@63. Koanic, yeah, well, it was the best the enemy could do this time. No Goliaths.

Blogger Geir Balderson August 29, 2017 12:03 PM  

"By this point, they should be experimenting with things like group sex with identical quadruplets, but it’s pretty obvious that the writers are just on autopilot now.”

Never having watched 'Game of Thrones', it might be best renamed as 'Games of the Depraved'. Their 'fans' certainly look forward to a much different type of entertainment than normal folks.

Perhaps, the Day of Final Judgement will soon be arriving?

Blogger RobertT August 29, 2017 12:07 PM  

I enjoy the show. Kind of the happy feeling you were looking forward to. Going forward, that in itself may be a sign of weakness. Another may be the white walkers. They are so evil and wicked there is no intrigue around them The episodes featuring them are are the weakest. Another weakness going into next season is they are solving so many problems there won't be many left to solve. But at some point, they have to tie this up. The stars are getting old.

I did notice one thing watching it last night. The White Walkers are so scary they aren't scary. They're just there. That's the dullest part of the entire thing. Caveat. I watched all the shows in about a month.

Blogger VD August 29, 2017 12:13 PM  

Westeros discovered the teleporter and characters are zipping across the continent wrapping up story lines.

Which is particularly funny considering the long and exceedingly boring journeys of Brienne and Tyrion in the books. Ye cats.

Blogger AureliusMoner August 29, 2017 12:40 PM  

@27

"They're not hiding the end game very well anymore: parents having sex (or worse) with their kids."

That's not quite right. The Jewish/Bolshevik theorists in the early days, expressed their view that "private property" originates in the patriarchal family, because that family is a self-contained unit which will love and care for its own children more than it will some other persons' children. They're basically right in this. It is certainly Natural Law, and a particular feature of European society, that a strongly Patriarchal family is the basis of civilization. The Judaeo-Bolsheviks therefore stated that the long-term goal of Globo-Homo-Judaeo-Bolshevo-Satanism has to be the destruction of the Patriarchal family and, ultimately, propagating the idea that children do not "belong" to their biological parents. Hence, several points of the agenda:

1) "Emancipate" women, because once the patriarchal head of household is out of the picture, the women easily hand their "families" over to the care and administration (i.e., ownership) of the State. The father will no longer be around to inculcate a sense of independence; the female imperative of "sharing," i.e., of apportioning blame to others and stealing goods from others, will be unchecked. We must remember that the Left is basically "the woman," while the Right is "the man," writ large. Society always has a womanish element; when it is ruled well by the male element, it can be very productive. When it is not ruled by the male element - well, we're living through such a time.

2) Destroy the "taboos" (there's no right and wrong, after all - only socially constructed taboos) around homosexuality, incest and pedophilia. Taboos about homosexuality reinforce "heteronormativity," and by implication, a family based on reproduction. Taboos about incest reinforce the idea that the family is a group of people with special bonds that should preclude sexual coupling. They openly advocated pedophilia as a necessary way of destroying the sense of parent-child bond (hence your observation about wanting parents to have sex with kids), but insisted this would only be fully effectual if kids were passed around promiscuously to all or many other adults. Thus, the parent-child bond would be dissolved and the child would have no sense that he was any more connected to his parents than to any other adult in the community.

3) Public schools - reinforces all of the above. Nowadays, the teachers even bang your kids, so things are pretty far along.

Public education is child abuse; decent people should be recoiling from the whole system. And this is very important: we should not be content with a merely political victory over these people. As soon as we have shored up our position and power, we must mercilessly hunt every single committed leftist down, give them a "fair trial" (hey, they've taught us everything a judge decrees is irresistible cosmic law), and then bring each of them not so much to the end they deserve (God alone knows how to punish them fully), but at least to arrange for them to meet that end as swiftly as possible.

Blogger Erynne August 29, 2017 12:47 PM  

Anyone else rooting for the Night King? Seriously, kill all of those idiots already. I want that to be my gritty ending. Can anyone recommend me a fantasy series where the bad guys win out at the end because they are more competent and dedicated to their goals?

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 29, 2017 12:51 PM  

"As soon as we have shored up our position and power, we must mercilessly hunt every single committed leftist down, give them a "fair trial" (hey, they've taught us everything a judge decrees is irresistible cosmic law), and then bring each of them not so much to the end they deserve (God alone knows how to punish them fully), but at least to arrange for them to meet that end as swiftly as possible."

So much yes.

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) August 29, 2017 12:55 PM  

Can anyone recommend me a fantasy series where the bad guys win out at the end because they are more competent and dedicated to their goals?

Harry Potter

Anonymous Steve August 29, 2017 1:04 PM  

But I'm sure Martin will rectify this shocking and uncharacteristic omission when he finally gets around to writing the novelization of the TV series based on his previous novels.

Perhaps the manky hobbit will combine rape with his other great passion and we'll finally get to see John Snow achieve coitus with a platter of pizza rolls.

Blogger Jack Ward August 29, 2017 1:06 PM  

There is still a long way to go, but I have to admit that I am increasingly confident that ARTS OF DARK AND LIGHT will eventually come to be seen as superior epic fantasy in comparison to A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE.
@31 With what respect might possibly be due [maybe] I have to say that the final 25% will see the light of day. I enjoyed the abbreviated version of book 2 quite a lot and am looking to the rest involving the sea raiders. At least I think thats part of 2. Whatever is the last part of book 2 is worth the wait. Its the Dark Lord of course. We don't even have to be terrorized by his fearsome reputation to enjoy good writing.

Anonymous Iacobus August 29, 2017 1:22 PM  

Never got into GoT just because of the whole "adult" angle. If one's story can't stand on its own without resorting to things like boobs and sex, well...

Enjoying "A Throne of Bones," Vox. I picked up "A Sea of Skulls" as well to follow after. I'm not big on fantasy (the Lord of the Rings series has been pretty much as deep as I've gone, as much as I've enjoyed it) but I'm really digging it so far.

Josh (the sexiest thing here) wrote:Can anyone recommend me a fantasy series where the bad guys win out at the end because they are more competent and dedicated to their goals?

Harry Potter


lol Lord, when I look back at that series, it's so completely retarded how they fought that "war." No relentless, take-no-prisoners fighting; just cowering until cornered.

Anonymous CPEG August 29, 2017 1:29 PM  

"At least I think thats part of 2. Whatever is the last part of book 2 is worth the wait."

And some stuff at home in Amorr, with the rebellion. Calling it now - if my theories are right, Severa's ultimate induction into the witchcult will require her to sacrifice her own child.

Blogger Sojourner August 29, 2017 1:37 PM  

The Black Company by Glen Cook comes close to bad guys win but then goes into there's even worse to come

Anonymous Skullfuck of Boners August 29, 2017 1:43 PM  

You talk a lot of shit about Game of Thrones. Your jealousy is apparent.

Anonymous bluto August 29, 2017 2:11 PM  

Tyrion ruling would certainly fit with the other similarities between Sansa Stark and Elizabeth of York.

Anonymous DaveInjustice August 29, 2017 2:37 PM  

And what was the biggest thing they contributed to the show? They murdered a 14 yo girl with poison. Just like a woman."

And don't forget killing the rightful ruler of Dorne. Doran Martell in the books was more of a player, playing a long game against the Lannisters in a calculated way. In the series they killed him off cause Girl Powah! I can't. E the only one who noticed the cavernous plot hole where Doran is assassinated, Oberyn dies, and Ellaria Sand and her daughters are bastards with no standing in succession. So who exactly actually rules Dorne?

Also Cersei is by no standard even a decent ruler having sacrificed her children to gain power, allowing Joffreys misrule and pouting when adults stepped in. At this point by my count 3 of the 7 kingdoms are openly opposing her, 1 is in a tenuous alliance, she controls one and further two she occupied and was forced to retreat from. If Dany marching her entire force up to the city fsted is any indicator, they should already be demanding her surrender, not pretending she's a force to be reckoned with

Anonymous Bz August 29, 2017 2:44 PM  

I read the beginning of A Throne of Bones and would like to note that that battle scene was very good.

(Already beat GRRM in that regard, at least, since as I recall he prefers to have them off stage to increase boredom maximally.)

Anonymous Bz August 29, 2017 2:46 PM  

"You talk a lot of shit about Game of Thrones. Your jealousy is apparent."

To be honest, it hasn't been very good in the last 18 years.

Blogger Sheila4g August 29, 2017 3:03 PM  

@46 Cail Corishev: "I haven't watched the show, but it's impossible not to hear about it."

I read books 1-3 many years ago. I may have read some of book 4, but I honestly can't recall. As you and others have noted, the endless senseless murders and tragedy and loss with no end in sight and for no perceivable goal (other than, perhaps, personal greed or power) become mind-numbingly depressing and then boring.

The irony for me is that I cannot get my husband to read fiction, let alone fantasy, but he's addicted to watching GOT. I haven't watched even one episode but I hear it while I'm doing the dishes or reading online at my countertop "desk" in the kitchen. It hasn't inspired me to read any more of the books.

Blogger VFM #407 August 29, 2017 3:06 PM  

Eventually? AODAL is already vastly superior to ASOIAF in virtually every way possible, save sheer volume of text. But even in that way it is superior as much of the textual diarrhea of ASOIAF is superfluous. Hmm, perhaps diarrhea is not an apt metaphor as he certainly does not spew forth his novels in anything resembling urgency.

And I'm certainly not saying this just because you're my Supreme Dark Lord!

OpenID chronicrpg August 29, 2017 3:10 PM  

@70
"Can anyone recommend me a fantasy series where the bad guys win out at the end because they are more competent and dedicated to their goals?"

The First Law by Joe Abercrombie, but only so far as being more dedicated to power at any cost goes. Competence, though, is pretty shaky, the final outcome was as much an asspull as any poorly written good ending.

Blogger modsquad August 29, 2017 3:16 PM  

Sheila4g wrote:@46 Cail Corishev: "I haven't watched the show, but it's impossible not to hear about it."

As you and others have noted, the endless senseless murders and tragedy and loss with no end in sight and for no perceivable goal (other than, perhaps, personal greed or power) become mind-numbingly depressing and then boring.


Kind of like the world we live in.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 29, 2017 3:22 PM  

modsquad wrote:Kind of like the world we live in.
Except real life has heroism, joy, faithfulness, Christ. Martin's world is just degradation, all the way down.

Blogger Kristophr August 29, 2017 3:24 PM  

Martin is just delivering what his employer wants.

HBO started out by locally microwaving to subscribers sports broadcasts during the day, and R rated soft porn at night.

Blogger VFM #407 August 29, 2017 3:27 PM  

Also, 100 to 1 odds that Daenerys "I can't have children" Targaryen is now pregnant with Jon "Aegon Targaryn" Snow's baby. It's very likely that Jon/Aegon will die defeating the Night King (and possibly become the new Night King, if one theory is correct). Later, Daenarys will die during childbirth and baby Jon Targaryn will be the new King of Westeros.

Anonymous BBGKB August 29, 2017 4:08 PM  

Perhaps The Mountain will rape Cersei.

Or he will fight the Hound for the right to rape her it will be Twilight Necrophilia vs bestiality all over again

Night King as an unstoppable force. Whats the over/under that they ruin the last season by making him fall to GRRL Power?

I guess that depends on if the faceless grrl can use the faces of dead, ur undead as disguises?

Blogger VD August 29, 2017 4:22 PM  

You talk a lot of shit about Game of Thrones. Your jealousy is apparent.

That makes no sense. I am far from the only fan of the first two books who felt that ASOIAF declined dramatically. Moreover, most people who have read both series feel that mine is better at this stage.

I suppose I could be jealous of his sales, theoretically, but then, shouldn't I be even more jealous of JK Rowling and Stephen King?

Anonymous Iacobus August 29, 2017 5:01 PM  

VD wrote:You talk a lot of shit about Game of Thrones. Your jealousy is apparent.

That makes no sense. I am far from the only fan of the first two books who felt that ASOIAF declined dramatically. Moreover, most people who have read both series feel that mine is better at this stage.

I suppose I could be jealous of his sales, theoretically, but then, shouldn't I be even more jealous of JK Rowling and Stephen King?


You have nothing to be jealous of. Rowling is a one-trick pony and King could never fully realize his stories (maybe minus "Misery"). I ended up facepalming towards the end of "The Stand" and the child gangbang moment in "It" was a WTF moment that took me completely out of the story. I thought Kubrick's treatment of "The Shining" was better and on and on...I could go on forever.

Blogger Gary Eden August 29, 2017 5:09 PM  

The last season or two seems like a bunch of fan fic / theories strung together into a story. The writers did better when they were drawing from the larger base material of the books.

Anonymous SJW August 29, 2017 5:20 PM  

There is still a long way to go, but I have to admit that I am increasingly confident that ARTS OF DARK AND LIGHT will eventually come to be seen as superior epic fantasy in comparison to A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE

Maybe if you finish the second book, but not likely.



https://stevejwright.wordpress.com/2017/08/23/a-throne-of-bones-by-vox-day-preamble-on-managing-expectations/
https://stevejwright.wordpress.com/2017/08/24/a-throne-of-bones-front-matter-and-prologue/
https://stevejwright.wordpress.com/2017/08/25/a-throne-of-bones-chapter-1/
https://stevejwright.wordpress.com/2017/08/28/a-throne-of-bones-goblin-battle-in-chapters-2-5/
https://stevejwright.wordpress.com/2017/08/29/a-throne-of-bones-world-tour-in-chapters-6-11/

Blogger Didact August 29, 2017 5:44 PM  

There is still a long way to go, but I have to admit that I am increasingly confident that ARTS OF DARK AND LIGHT will eventually come to be seen as superior epic fantasy in comparison to A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE.

My vote doesn't count for squat on the subject in the wider literary world, obviously, but as far as I'm concerned, AODAL is already far superior to the entirety of ASOIAF.

And that's even before the second book in your series is complete.

Blogger JaimeInTexas August 29, 2017 5:49 PM  

I find Arya's character more believable than Brienne. Arya is a master of disguise and a trained assassin. No brute force ewualbto men, just cunning, a little speed and knowledge.

Anonymous kHz August 29, 2017 5:53 PM  

From the SJW stevejwright.wordpress:

'And I am really quite bothered by this subtext of “It’s OK to kill the lesser species, they have no souls”.'

Of course he is, he has no soul.

Blogger VD August 29, 2017 5:53 PM  

Maybe if you finish the second book, but not likely.

I will finish all five.

Blogger JaimeInTexas August 29, 2017 5:55 PM  

Sansa was a immature, trained to believe in fairy tales, that had to learn the hard way.
Sansa will take Tyrion as her husband, joining the North and South.
Jon and Danny will get married and rule Westeros in a Golden Age. Or, they will die together.
I wonder what is in store for the Mountain.
Will the Dog get his peace farming the property of the father/daughter he robbed?

Blogger VD August 29, 2017 6:00 PM  

I would say it is a very good sign that I've already got the gamma midwits attempting to tear down battle scenes that are markedly superior to pretty much everything else out there.

The funniest thing is that they are the same sort of people who have never noticed that the rules of Quidditch make absolutely no sense as a sport.

"Untrained goblins don't fight as effectively as highly-trained and experienced legions!"

Really?

The best part is that he's complaining about Fortex disobeying orders and engaging in single combat... without realizing that the entire episode is taken directly from actual Roman history.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 29, 2017 6:06 PM  

kHz wrote:From the SJW stevejwright.wordpress:

'And I am really quite bothered by this subtext of “It’s OK to kill the lesser species, they have no souls”.'

Of course he is, he has no soul.


SJW goes to great lengths to explain that he absolutely hates Vox Day, in every possible way.
But he'll be fair reviewing the turd that Amazon flung over his transom, because he's a quality guy.
Sorry, not buying it. Spending five essays detailing how much you hate Vox Day, I mean, the books, reveals an obsession, and a relentless approach to virtual signalling that simply doesn't reconcile with your self-description.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 29, 2017 6:08 PM  

VD wrote:The best part is that he's complaining about Fortex disobeying orders and engaging in single combat... without realizing that the entire episode is taken directly from actual Roman history.
And that the incident is the driver for pretty much the entire plot, as far as Amorr is concerned.

Blogger tublecane August 29, 2017 6:10 PM  

@8-I agree that the show fell of a cliff in quality after they ran out of or abandoned the source material, which was in Season Five. Actually, the show noticeably decreased in quality after Season Three, but Season Four still finished strong. I am not a reader of Martin, so I can't say sure, but it would be an awfully big coincidence if the showrunners didn't lose their way because they stopped adapting and started creating.

Season Five was a waste, but I actually enjoyed some of the last two seasons, because now it's a big, dumb action CGI-extravaganza instead of what it was. (Pseudo-historical, serious political fantasy drama? With lots of rape.) And the bigger story started moving forward. They got to the Big Events they've been teasing since episode one (zombie masters and dragons coming over).

They had to considerably speed up Martin's story, presumably, to get to these happenings. But an expedited timeline doesn't make for a tighter story. I don't agree with you there. Many of the episodes move too fast for people to notice, but the overarching storylines of the season--the latest incest romance, the War between the two blonde queens, two sisters squabbling with eachother or maybe not, and the hunt for a zombie to show to one of the queens so she'll agree to a truce--made little to no sense. And obviously so, to the point where I think 85 IQ people might sense something's off. They just don't care, because if they watch they watch for the cool action.

It's apparent to me that the show or HBO really loves Lena Headey as Cersei, and I don't blame them because she gives one of the strongest performances despite the silly dialogue and contrived situations. So they bend over backwards to keep her in the show and on the throne. To the point where--and I can't stress this enough--the major storylines of the season made no sense. She should have been obliterated in episode one, but the other side ties its hands militarily for no good reason. There was no excuse for the idiocy of going beyond the Wall to get a zombie, losing a dragon and apparently causing the Wall to fall and a fullscale zombie invasion in the process. And there was *really* no excuse for the basin asinine way it happened.

But they needed to convince Lena Headey, because she's the most important human ever.

Blogger VD August 29, 2017 6:12 PM  

Spending five essays detailing how much you hate Vox Day, I mean, the books, reveals an obsession, and a relentless approach to virtual signalling that simply doesn't reconcile with your self-description.

Oh, there will be more than five. But regardless, doing a "fisking" of a novel before you've even finished reading the whole thing is not something that any honest reviewer ever does. There is nothing wrong with a chapter-by-chapter analysis, but you can only do a legitimate one if you have read the whole thing first.

I'll be shocked if he actually manages to get much farther than the idiots doing the same thing with TIA did. At least he's unlikely to run off to Las Vegas to become a prostitute.

Blogger tublecane August 29, 2017 6:14 PM  

About rape, I think the show came in for a lot of criticism when the had the worst character on the show, Ramsey, brutalize the mostly innocent, virginal Sansa. They learned their lesson and laid off the rape.

I haven't read the books, but my understanding is Martin did not write Sansa that way, and maybe she's still a virgin in the books. Not that I want to give him any credit on the issue of rape-obsession, but at least he didn't go that far.

OpenID chronicrpg August 29, 2017 6:16 PM  

@100
"I would say it is a very good sign that I've already got the gamma midwits attempting to tear down battle scenes that are markedly superior to pretty much everything else out there."

Look, you may be right because the last decent battle scene in fantasy probably was back there in Lord of the Rings, but the initial goblin battle indeed was bloody boring, if only due to being one of those utterly one-sided battles that Julius Caesar described in three words rather than three chapters. I cannot speak for everyone, but it made me personally drop the book for a time.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 29, 2017 6:16 PM  

VD wrote:At least he's unlikely to run off to Las Vegas to become a prostitute.
Objection: assertion of facts not in evidence.

Anonymous DaveInjustice August 29, 2017 6:18 PM  

The best part is that he's complaining about Fortex disobeying orders and engaging in single combat... without realizing that the entire episode is taken directly from actual Roman history."

So what was the complaint exactly​? That single combat between commanders never occurred or simply that it didn't occur in Roman military context? Either way, they'd be wrong.

Blogger tublecane August 29, 2017 6:25 PM  

@16-You miss the forest for the trees. Granted, they don't have them all be perfect warrior-conquerors who spend all day being righteous and ridding the world of evil men. But just think of how many women they had ruling the different kingdoms at the beginning of the season. It was basically all of them, except the North with Jon Snow. But he flew down to be with his aunt-lover and left his sister-cousin in charge. Oh, and the Iron Islands, but a girl who thought herself the rightful ruler left with their fleet.

It's too much. Arya is ridiculous, of course, but so's the big lady she sparred with. We still haven't been told she has special magical powers allowing her to win a fistfight with one of the biggest and scariest men on the show.

Then there's Cersei, who by all rights and common sense shouldn't be near the throne. She should have been torn apart by the city's population. Failing that, she should have been deposed for facing a giant army with dragons considering she had like one ally this season. Actually, she shouldn't have been queen at all. After her son killed himself, his nearest male relative was her brother, Jaime. But he just ran her army, had sex with her, and moped around, instead of asking, "Hey, shouldn't I be king?"

Blogger tublecane August 29, 2017 6:30 PM  

@19-My understanding is that Season Six marked the end of the books as source material. Though there may be elements they're still throwing in that they ignored or didn't get to before. Also, I hear that they abandoned large chunks of the source material in Season Five, and went there own way with major storylines.

Therefore, they've been all alone the last two seasons and largely alone the seas prior. Or in other words, not strictly telling the book story since Season Four.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( You are Welcome ... to go back to the hell hole you came from ) August 29, 2017 6:31 PM  

70. Erynne August 29, 2017 12:47 PM
Anyone else rooting for the Night King? Seriously, kill all of those idiots already. I



that was my take on Jurassic Park. i'm not sure there was a single human character in the entire movie who demonstrated enough wit and intelligence to deserve to live.

Goldblum's character, maybe?

i wanted all the rest of them eaten just so they'd shut up and i wouldn't have to listen to them any more.


*children are told that the T-rex hunts by motion and sound*

*confronted by the T-rex in the car they immediately ... turn on a flashlight and start screaming*

seriously, even mice are smarter than this. and they STILL wind up getting eaten by snakes.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 29, 2017 6:37 PM  

Well, the hunter guy was okay. But his purpose in the plot is to die saving the little shits.

Anonymous CHalgren August 29, 2017 6:40 PM  

@106, oh no, you need to read Abercrombie.

Blogger tublecane August 29, 2017 6:42 PM  

@7-I agree. One of the show's main characters is guilt of regicide (the king in question being her husband), incest (twin incest, no less), mass murder, extreme profanation (she blew up the equivalent of the Vatican with a pope-like figure inside), kinslaying (her uncle, plus people could reasonably think she had her son killed, too), fornication, and other things, and no one cares.

Well, her enemies care and want her dead. But her subjects clap for her side, and noble houses are still willing to follow her. Which is sheer madness.

There's moral content to the situation, in that the show doesn't pretend she isn't a villain. And you get the feeling she'll meet justice eventually. But I get the sense that they want to stretch her story out to the end of the show, because in the meantime we get to revel in all the evil. It's sick.

Anonymous BBGKB August 29, 2017 6:44 PM  

VD wrote: At least he's unlikely to run off to Las Vegas to become a prostitute.

Objection: assertion of facts not in evidence.


The world is not kind to male prostitutes above a certain age. By the time they are old enough to legally drink no more around the world trips with Bryan Singer

Anonymous Paul August 29, 2017 6:47 PM  

Game of Thrones is top degeneracy.

OpenID chronicrpg August 29, 2017 6:53 PM  

@113 Unless Abercrombie battles got vastly better in his one-shot books following the trilogy, then no, I don't need any more of that. It is usual fantasy fare, featuring strange combinations of modern and medieval, endless orc waves, and complicated plans goind without a hitch, that pretends to be realistic by emphasizing pain and suffering, killing side characters I didn't care about, and just generally trying as hard as possible to make war look entirely pointless and unjustified, even when the enemies are Mohammedans in the universe where Mohammed is an immortal cannibal wizard.

Anonymous DaveInjustice August 29, 2017 6:57 PM  

"universe where Mohammed is an immortal cannibal wizard."

Wait, you mean he's not in this one?

Anonymous CHalgren August 29, 2017 6:57 PM  

@117, yes, specifically The Heroes. It's the opposite of everything you just mentioned.

Blogger tublecane August 29, 2017 6:58 PM  

@53-It's incestual whether they know they're related or not. They didn't knowingly "commit incest," and aren't responsible for it as a sin, I guess, if they didn't know.

But they are guilty of sexing out of wedlock and wooden acting.

Blogger JaimeInTexas August 29, 2017 6:59 PM  

I almost cheered when thevwomen got killed. I hope that, whatshername Yala, foes not survive her rescue by Theon.

Blogger VD August 29, 2017 6:59 PM  

the initial goblin battle indeed was bloody boring, if only due to being one of those utterly one-sided battles that Julius Caesar described in three words rather than three chapters. I cannot speak for everyone, but it made me personally drop the book for a time.

You are very far from my ideal reader if that level of detail makes you drop the book. I mean, the very idea that what makes a battle interesting is its outcome being in doubt is directly contrary to the entire spirit of the book. If you think that one is boring, I've got several in A Sea of Skulls that should put you to sleep.

And that's fine. If it's not your thing, it's not your thing.

Anyhow, very, very few battles in history have ever begun without both sides having a fairly good idea who is more likely to win. That's why strategy and operations are more important than tactics.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 29, 2017 7:13 PM  

My only complaint is the little fire mage who wasn't allowed to survive the battle. I know why she had to be killed, but there was so much that could have been done with her character in upsetting the Savondese applecart.
And the tunnel. That was dumb

Blogger tublecane August 29, 2017 7:16 PM  

@122-For me, it's not strictly about who's going to win, because battles can fit into stories any number of ways. And as for details, authors can delve into them in Amy number of contexts, many not a fraction as exciting as a battle can be. You can spend an entire chapter on the contents of a sandwich if it's done the right way, theoretically.

Idly thinking back on my reading history, though I'm not an aficionado of military fiction, I have read plenty of novels with battles. I can't say any battle in any book ever really stands out in my memory as being dramatically decisive. That is, as the outcome determining my enjoyment of the book, or even that section of the book. Usually it's either one more piece in the plot, or maybe it stands out as a good sequence in itself. But I can't remember being on the edge of my seat waiting to see who wins, the same way I've found myself waiting to find out how Sir What-not will react to the letter from Lady Who's-its, if you know what I mean.

Not to say I never have experienced a literary battle in a dramatic fashion like that. I simply can't remember doing do. Most of the things I remember are things like Prince Andrei laying on the field at Austerlitz. Which didn't really rely on this side or that winning the battle, though it helped the story for Napoleon to ride by and see him.

Blogger tublecane August 29, 2017 7:24 PM  

@124-I take that back. I just remembered a short story by H.L. Mencken. Can't remember the title, but it was about a cavalry division charging against a machine gun nest, or superior modern firepower anyway. Probably called The Last Cavalry Charge, or something like that.

I was moved specifically by the outcome of the engagement portrayed, so I guess the outcome of a battle--or a piece of a battle--got to me dramatically. But it's a rarer thing than people might think.

Also, I pretty much knew the outcome from the title. Therefore, the dramatic tension didn't come from my doubt.

Anonymous Pax_Romana August 29, 2017 8:19 PM  

So, I had read the books (waiting the obligatory 10 years between 4, 5, and onward), and I've only seen up to episode...3 or 4 of season 1. I saw the series finale, and aside from some interesting things happening in the North - trials and what not, the result of which I do not think Martin would EVER have written - I was quite bored. Considering how my friends had built up this season, I had expected fireworks, but based on what I had read in the books, I...rather expected almost everything that had happened.

Oh well, what's one more type of incest in this series? As I understand it, this would be the norm if Jon and Dany were Muslims.

Anonymous Alice De GOod August 29, 2017 8:30 PM  

The only series featuring decadent, behaving badly aristocrats that I ever saw and ended up liking was "I, Claudius." And the reason that series was good was because (a) it's villains were highly charismatic and witty, (b) all of the villains eventually received a comeuppance (whether falling victim to their own schemes or seeing everything they fought for come to nothing and (c) there were enough decent people in the cast to root for - even if most of them did fall victim to the villains, there was nobility in their actions and suffering, and main protagonist Claudius himself eventually "won," getting a record of the corruption he lived with written down and preserved for posterity. There was definite right and wrong in that series, and although doing the right thing might have made you a target, it didn't make you a fool.

I don't think Britain ever managed to repeat the success of I, Claudius with any of their other "decadent aristocrats behaving badly" series. "The Cleopatras" and "The Borgias" from the 1980s have passable production values and some decent acting, but the characters are so selfish and dickish, that one finds it very hard to give a shit what happens to them. I greatly wonder how popular Game of Thrones might have been if it hadn't been splashing breasts and spectacle across the screen on a constant basis.

Anonymous Anonymous August 29, 2017 9:01 PM  

Never watched the show, never read the books, spent 10 minutes reading the Wiki.

Here's my take:

Valaryans don't belong in Westeros. They have to go back. And so do their Mongol hordes, their Mamelukes, their fire breathing demons and their sorcery.

Before the conquest, Westeros was a robust, self confident civilization. The conquest destroyed the most virtuous great houses (the ones prepared to fight to the bitter end), and it also undermined the Faith by disarming the Faith Militant and forcing toleration for the royal family's incest. If the elite of Westeros is less virtuous than it once was, I blame the baleful influence of the inbred foreign tyrants who deformed their character for 300 years.

The Starks are woefully lacking in Westeran ethno-nationalism. They surrendered without a fight at the time of the conquest, they looked down on Jamie Lanister for taking justice on the last of the tyrants, they hid "Jon Snow" from their fellow great houses, and now they are once again rallying to the support of the inbred. Worst of all, they still serve the gods foisted upon them by a different species, entangling themselves in degenerate sorcery.

Littlefinger was almost certainly an agent of the inbred. He accomplished four crucially important tasks which prepared the way for their restoration:
1. He killed Jon Arran, the single most effective anti-inbred leader. He likely also physically and mentally crippled Robbin Arran with poison (like Alexander the Great's mother Olympias did to rival half-brother Arrhidaeus)
2. He provoked a civil war to weaken Westeros.
3. He drove a wedge between the Faith and the most important remaining secular leader, Cersei.
4. He strengthened the Starks.

Say what you will about Cersei Lanister and Eugon Greyjoy, at least they defend the homeland of their folk against the invading Dothroki hordes - unlike the traitors who bowed the knee to The-Whore-Of-Babylon-Riding-On-The-Great-Dragon. And, however imperfectly, Cersei and Eugon follow the authentic religions of their folk, not the abominable sorcery and idolatry of the forest imps.

Fortunately, a more formidable hero than either Cercei or Eugon is poised to save Westeros. I refer, of course, to the Winter King. The oldest, the boldest and the coldest. He experienced first hand the full evil of the Children's sorcery, yet he had the iron will power necessary to break free of their control and turn their sorcery against them. His people lacked his will to freedom, bowing their knees to the Weirwood trees and banishing their would-be champion to the lands north of the wall. Rather than accept release from his misery in the sweet sleep of death, he trained himself for thousands of years, increasing his sorcery and javelin throwing skills, recruiting followers, waiting for the day his folk would need him. Rumors of Andal victories over the Children cheered him as he toiled. Stepping in to Bran's visions recently enabled him to finish, north of the wall, the job the Andals started south of it. He encountered a man obviously bred for dragon-riding, spared him and goaded him, knowing it was only a matter of time until the dragon rider brought him the necessary weapon with which to breach the wall. The vile puppets of the Children and of the Valaryans will soon know his wrath.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( You are Welcome ... to go back to the hell hole you came from ) August 29, 2017 9:05 PM  

53. Stephen Davenport August 29, 2017 11:15 AM
How can it be incest if they do not know they are committing incest yet?



are your mother and father, sister and brother?

cuz you've gotta be pretty damn stupid to ask a question like that.


63. Koanic August 29, 2017 11:45 AM
I wonder whether Vox anticipated that his literary career would be largely spent picking on a perverted dwarf and an ex-cripple.



remember, the ex-cripple is also a dwarf.

i assume Vox has chosen these authors because they are approximately his height.

seriously, you think the three shortest authors in skiffy having a beef is an accident?

what are they going to do? pick a fight with the Mountain Who Owns A Mountain?


70. Erynne August 29, 2017 12:47 PM
Can anyone recommend me a fantasy series where the bad guys win out at the end because they are more competent and dedicated to their goals?



Moorcock's Elric.

Piers Anthony's Tyrant?

you could read Babur the Tiger's autobiography this way.




Blogger Theproductofafineeduction August 29, 2017 10:06 PM  

What you call virtuous I call retarded. There is no point in fighting a battle your sure to not only lose, but be entirely obliterated. The Valaryans weren't orcish hordes who would destroy everything, they were more than willing to leave westrosi/First men culture alone as evident by their conversion to the dominant religion.

Ned's willingness to hide Jon Snows true identity isn't a black mark, far from. It's also why he consistently ranks as one of the most beloved characters despite only being in book. GRRM issue was never how he wrote the Starks, or used their mistakes, or that even some of his other characters were outright horrible people, it's that he dabbled too much in minutiae at the expense of the actual story and it's now become apparent he doesn't know how to end the damned thing.

Anonymous DMV August 29, 2017 10:38 PM  

Except for the grrrl power which is ridiculous and the graphic decadence which is disgusting, GOT is an entertaining story and a first-class production. Wouldn't pay for it, but we torrented it and enjoyed watching it late Sunday night. LittleFinger FINALLY got done in. And it's about bloody time. Slimy little snake will manipulate nobody ever again. I was thinking: Oh, that little psycho Arya is going to kill Sansa now and everything is going to go to hell again in Winterfell. But, surprise, surprise - a timely twist made for a happy ending. Not so much for LittleFinger, but for everyone else. Bran is finally being useful. Now he has seen the wall of 8000 years go down in minutes by the Dragon from hell. Entertaining indeed. And given the current state of reality, an escape is most welcome.

Blogger Nate73 August 29, 2017 10:47 PM  

> unlike the traitors who bowed the knee to The-Whore-Of-Babylon-Riding-On-The-Great-Dragon

You sir are a genius.

Anonymous DMV August 29, 2017 10:52 PM  

And you gotta love Samwell Tarly. Poor Sam has been through so much, yet he remains steadfast, unassuming, and quietly valiant. Not a mean bone in his body. And he killed a White Walker.

Blogger CM August 30, 2017 12:48 AM  

Theproductofafineeduction wrote:GRRM issue was never how he wrote the Starks, or used their mistakes, or that even some of his other characters were outright horrible people, it's that he dabbled too much in minutiae at the expense of the actual story and it's now become apparent he doesn't know how to end the damned thing.

Personally, I think he wants a woman on the Iron Throne and he doesn't know how to arrive there in a satisfactory way.

---
An earlier commenter was talking about the glut of power for the Great Houses. My theory is Jon and Danaerys as King and Queen (I know, I know... but Targaryen incest has already been established as "normal" and the generation gap was "normal" way back when Nicholas of Russia's babies were dying of blood disorders, so c'est la vie), Gendry will get Storm's End, Samwell (with the Night's Watch ended) will be Lord of House Tarly, High Garden, I don't know. Sansa will be Lady of Winterfell (the girl power he should satisfy himself with); Tyrion, Lord of Casterly Rock.

That leaves the Riverlands needing to replace two houses, Roose Bolton, and Dorne. There are enough wildlings that someone could distinguish themselves... assuming they would want one.

Of course, if the NK wins, it is moot. And we have no idea who will die in this process.

If they all die or Cersei reigns, I will finally agree with VD that this was the most nihilistic waste of time ever.

Blogger tublecane August 30, 2017 12:58 AM  

@128-I enjoy the strong reactionary pull of fantasy, which tempts even obvious lefties like Martin into writing tales full of Race Realism. At least in the ancient history part, that is. Which makes it easy for people like you to extend that part of the story forward, presumably against the author's wishes. You're supposed to think in terms of humans is humans, but there's that backstory, full of potential wrongthink.

The show makes a point of having all the people who oppose the invading Mongol and Eastern Eunuch armies on principle be dumb and racist, or cynical evil people. As evinced by their saying words like "savages," which in the PC world only dumb people say.

Because no rational person could possibly wonder, "Hey, what happens after these violent foreigners install their queen? Will they go back East? Or will they rape our women and sit in our castles?"

I don't know what the endgame is, but since the Dragon Queen conquered much of the East and is working on the West, it may be the old leftist dream of One-Worldism. If Tyrion has his way, maybe we'll get some form of democracy. Or at least more deliberation amongst the higher classes. Eventually, that'll lead to "we're all equal."

To the show's credit, early this year the invaders tried to win the war using none but Westerosi--mostly Andal, probably--soldiers. They were sensitive to public opinion regarding foreign hordes. But why bring 100,000 savages and tens of thousands of eunuch soldiers, then? Why not keep them in the Eastern Empire, only bothering with your Western allies and your dragons in the West? They should've been plenty enough alone.

By the way, I think the Starks worship the gods of the First Men, don't they? That's why they have that tree in their yard.

Blogger CM August 30, 2017 1:00 AM  

tublecane wrote:@122-For me, it's not strictly about who's going to win, because battles can fit into stories any number of ways. And as for details, authors can delve into them in Amy number of contexts, many not a fraction as exciting as a battle can be. You can spend an entire chapter on the contents of a sandwich if it's done the right way, theoretically.

Idly thinking back on my reading history, though I'm not an aficionado of military fiction, I have read plenty of novels with battles. I can't say any battle in any book ever really stands out in my memory as being dramatically decisive. That is, as the outcome determining my enjoyment of the book, or even that section of the book. Usually it's either one more piece in the plot, or maybe it stands out as a good sequence in itself. But I can't remember being on the edge of my seat waiting to see who wins, the same way I've found myself waiting to find out how Sir What-not will react to the letter from Lady Who's-its, if you know what I mean.

Not to say I never have experienced a literary battle in a dramatic fashion like that. I simply can't remember doing do. Most of the things I remember are things like Prince Andrei laying on the field at Austerlitz. Which didn't really rely on this side or that winning the battle, though it helped the story for Napoleon to ride by and see him.


I'm like you. For myself, I can't abstract a battle. I need to see the pieces in play to get a good feel. Even then, I will have no idea if it was sound strategy and good writing. From some of what has been written here, if a writer is in doubt, find an actual battle where the outcome fits your story well enough and emulate that in your story.

The only exception I have to this came from this series. Again, no idea if it was strategically and tactically sound, but it had me at the edge of my seat waiting for the outcome.

(The linked book - Good story, not the best writing, could have been better, but the central theme was worth the read)

Blogger CM August 30, 2017 1:15 AM  

tublecane wrote:
There's moral content to the situation, in that the show doesn't pretend she isn't a villain. And you get the feeling she'll meet justice eventually. But I get the sense that they want to stretch her story out to the end of the show, because in the meantime we get to revel in all the evil. It's sick.


Maybe it is just my experience with modern writing, but I thought hating the villain with a blind fury was sort of the point in writing villains. But your comment made me think of the White Witch in Narnia, and while you don't like her, it isn't such a virulent hatred that Cersei, Joffrey, or Ramsay evoke.

Perhaps having some disgust at even villains in stories can have a negative impact on us? Reveling in hatred and a desire to see them dead?

I'm enjoying your comments.

Blogger Nate73 August 30, 2017 4:55 AM  

I don't know as much history as I should, but wasn't there a reason Queen Elizabeth never remarried? Like, her partner would assume dominance over her and become the king? So no matter which woman gets the Westerosi throne, say Daenerys, she either can't have children as has been established or she does but Jon becomes the primary ruler? I guess Martin would want that but that would compromise realism.

Anonymous Perfunctory Solecism August 30, 2017 4:55 AM  

I dunno ... I've always felt the GoT series (haven't read the books) was appealing in that for all the sadism, it's usually clear who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. Viewers may get impatient over how long it can take for the bad guys to get their comeuppance, but they usually do receive their comeuppance eventually.

Blogger Nate73 August 30, 2017 5:58 AM  

@139: I think I heard someone say that in GoT it's both good and evil characters that get comeuppance. Only people in the middle who can adapt can win the Game of Thrones (TM). At least that's how I saw it in the first 3 books, after both Stark and Lannister had been mostly killed off.

Blogger Buybuydandavis August 30, 2017 8:43 AM  

I was noticing how the men are increasingly deformed, incompetent, impotent, and dependent to/vanquished by competent women.

Of major male characters: Dwarf adviser, Frankenstein's monster, swordsman without a hand, a Eunuch, another Eunuch, another Eunuch, doofus bookworm, face burned thug, and three eyed Raven, effectively another eunuch.

And John Snow, king who let himself get ambushed and killed, and was reborn by a woman, then led his army to defeat, only to be saved by his sister, then went hunting for one of the Walking Dead, and had to be saved a third time by a woman.

So much Grrrrrl Power lately, complete with gloating speeches on why the vagina was smarter than the lowly penis, yet again.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 30, 2017 9:38 AM  

At least that's how I saw it in the first 3 books, after both Stark and Lannister had been mostly killed off.

Lannister characters killed off were largely background to the main three siblings, though. Tywin was never more than a foil for the kids to rebel against, and he wasn't particularly evil, just ambitious and stoic. Joeffrey was kind of a character, I guess, but still a secondary one to his mother, and he died from stupidity (retarded from the incest?) not because he was evil. If there were others, they weren't important enough to come to mind.

On the Stark side, Ned was set up as a good main character, then turned stupid and killed. Ditto Robb. Bran wasn't quite killed, just disappeared for a book or more. Sansa keeps hanging around because she's morally ambiguous enough to be useful to the evil side.

So on the evil side, the most evil people keep thriving, with Cersei at the top of the list. Evil is smart (or cunning), and while dumb or naive evil people might die at times, the evilest ones keep winning because they're smart. On the good side, it's reversed: being good and heroic also makes you stupid and dead, while the best way to survive as a "good" person is to meet evil halfway.

So I don't think the message is "True Neutral is best" the way it's sometimes characterized. The main message seems to be that the smart (Secret Kings) survive and win, but also good is dumb, so you'd better be smart and evil or smart and morally adaptable.

In theory, he could be setting up for good to have a big comeback and finally destroy evil, but I think we know the author better than that. It's unlikely he will have any "good" characters left to do it with.

Blogger tublecane August 30, 2017 3:46 PM  

@142-I think Tywin was evil, though not so much as his daughter. He ordered things which may be justified in stone minds for being instrumental in winning wars and promoting his family's interests, but which grossly violate morality.

He set up the Red Wedding, which was a moral crime against the sacred custom of guest-rights.

He had the Mountain slaughter the remaining royal family when the capital was sacked during the rebellion, including children. He also set the Mountain loose to commit war crimes in the Riverlands during the War of the Five Kings.

He compelled his son Tyrion to marry young Sansa Stark, who was a hostage and unable to truly consent. He then urged Tyriom to sex her, which would have been tantamount to rape.

He participated in setting this same son up in a regicide trial when he knew him to be guilty. Then he stole Tyrion's whore girlfriend, whom he had previously denigrated and chastised Tyrion for associating with.

Blogger tublecane August 30, 2017 3:47 PM  

@143-Sorry, I meant knew him to be innocent.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 30, 2017 3:51 PM  

@143, Fair enough, he's worse than I remembered.

OpenID chronicrpg August 31, 2017 2:58 AM  

@144 Unless one had the privilege of reading Tyrion's chapter, which Tywin didn't, everything pointed to Tyrion's guilt and nothing to his innocence. In real life, when you are proven to have both a motive, and means to commit a murder, demostrated suspicious behavior immediately after murder, and have a well-known history of acting on impulse, you should consider a plea bargain.

Anonymous Were-Puppy August 31, 2017 10:31 PM  

I ended up watching this season of GOT without having read any novels or seen any previous seasons.

In a nutshell, it feels like Revenge of the Dead White Males, which is fine with me.

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