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Sunday, August 27, 2017

It's not that bad

And it's really not that hard to figure out, either.
The concept of communication range was established by Leta Hollingworth. It is +/- 2 standard deviations (roughly 30 points) up or down on one’s own IQ. It denotes the range where meaningful interaction (communication, discussion, conversation and socializing) is possible. If the IQ difference between two persons is more than 30 points, the communication breaks up. The higher IQ person will look like an incomprehensible nerd and the lower IQ as a moronic dullard - and they will not find anything common.

+/- 30 points does not sound much, but once the IQ is past 135, the downsides are imminent. When someone has a perfectly mediocre IQ (100 for Caucasian average), his communication range is from IQ 70 to IQ 130, which covers some 98% of the whole population. But when it is 135, it is from 105 to 165, which is approximately 36% of population. And it gets worse: if it is 162, your whole meaningful set of human interactions is restricted to Mensa qualifying people only (2% of whole population). Good luck for finding friends, acquaintances, colleagues - or spouse.

And it gets worse.

When the average IQ of a group is lower than the lower end of your communication range, the group will see you as a hostile outsider. They will do anything to bully you out of their presence. They will ostracize, excommunicate and oust you amongst themselves.

Sorry, but this is basic human psychology. Human group dynamics dictates that when the diversity grows too big, the group becomes incooperable - the group interaction becomes impossible. And high IQ means exactly that.

You may say that nobody must left behind and that mobbing and bullying is nasty and unacceptable, but our biology dictates otherwise. Exclusion is the basis for co-operation. A group which does not exclude people differing from the norm off or otherwise eliminate their presence, becomes dysfunctional.

Let me put this bluntly: every single human being with IQ of 135+ has experienced this exclusion, ousting and loneliness. The stereotype of a lonely genius does not come from empty air. It is cruel reality. And each and every human being with IQ of 135+ has experienced such unhappiness and misery the mediocre IQ people can not even imagine in their nightmares. I have cried my cubic metre of tears.

And this issue - that unhappiness is due to loneliness and the loneliness is due to the communication range - is something very few high IQ people ever realize.
I suspect it is significant that this piece is written by a high IQ woman. It's not only harder for them to find friends, it is MUCH harder for them to find romance. A man is just as happy with a less intelligent woman as a more intelligent woman, whereas a woman is unlikely to want to settle for a less intelligent man, just as she's less inclined to settle for a shorter man.

I knew I was much more intelligent than the average from the age of four, but I had an even smarter friend from the age of five. So, while I certainly experienced my share of exclusion and ousting, I can't honestly say I ever experienced much in the way of loneliness. And frankly, very intelligent kids tend to be more than a little obnoxious as well as somewhat dishonest with themselves; it's fine if you decide to reject the way that people have settled on doing things, but then, you have to recognize that you are making a choice.

In that refusal to admit that they are making a choice, many a gamma male is made.

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216 Comments:

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Anonymous Claymore August 27, 2017 12:39 PM  

Can you tell us how your smarter friend turned out? How did he use his ability?

Blogger Arithtoddle August 27, 2017 12:41 PM  

"In that refusal to admit that they are making a choice, many a gamma male is made."

The Dark Lord needs no endorsement on anything, this was well stated. Refusal of choice is the Genesis of an SJW. Heads, meet 2 x 4.

Blogger S1AL August 27, 2017 12:41 PM  

One of my formative moments was when a friend (and a fairly new one at that) took me aside and explained that I seemed like an asshole because I assumed everyone was smart enough to follow everything I said.

Until that moment, I never had a clue.

And that's the difference between wisdom and intelligence.

Blogger VD August 27, 2017 12:45 PM  

Can you tell us how your smarter friend turned out? How did he use his ability?

Married to a pretty woman, kids, doing very well. He went technical, then into technical management.

Blogger VD August 27, 2017 12:47 PM  

I seemed like an asshole because I assumed everyone was smart enough to follow everything I said.

Hence the vital importance of the MPAI philosophy. I KNOW there are people who will neither agree nor even comprehend much of what I write, even when it strikes me as excessively simplistic. I may or may not choose to accommodate them - I usually don't - but at least I am aware that they don't get it.

Blogger kurt9 August 27, 2017 12:49 PM  

What Susanna, the writer of the piece, will realize (or maybe not - liberals generally lack insight) is that once you get comfortable in your own skin, the loneliness gradually fades away. One's attitude becomes more of a constant bemusement at the antics of the less intelligent (and much more emotional).

Blogger pyrrhus August 27, 2017 12:50 PM  

This pretty much drove me off FB, because not only do people, often with professional degrees, not understand you, they react with hostility to your attempts to explain what seem to me are relatively simple points.

Blogger Ingot9455 August 27, 2017 12:53 PM  

Yet again, the brilliance of the God-Emperor comes to mind with his fourth-grade-level speeches versus his eleventh-grade-level speeches.

Blogger James August 27, 2017 12:55 PM  

I'm sure there are exceptions to what I'm about to say, but I found as I got older that the isolation you experience being "different" becomes the norm, and even preferable to being around other people. I tended to actually bond better with high IQ individuals and considered them peers, while I tended to avoid those I thought were of lesser intellect. Not because I was better. It was just because conversations were either never launched or tended to peter out quickly. I eventually came to prefer being alone to being around "normal" people. I saw them as herd animals that joined socially out of fear of being alone, something I was quite content with. And I recognize that bonding with people is an important and necessary need for people. Its just that human interaction seems to involve less positive reinforcements and more unpleasant situations. Hopefully, when the apocalypse happens, trust will become such an important commodity that everyone will be hesitant to form bonds until they understand each other better. Your character will be more important than your small talk, although information sharing will be very important for survival.

Blogger Lucas August 27, 2017 12:55 PM  

Do you think that the fact that you were into sports might have helped you avoid the lonliness, VD?

Blogger Michael Maier August 27, 2017 12:56 PM  

My nephew is only 6 and already vocalizes that he's smarter than everyone he knows. I suspect he might be sharp enough to back it up ... but man is he pushing it with his mouth and attitude.

I am kind of scared for his brain development as he's in public schools. I spent 13 years in public schools and never learned how to try at something hard... cuz it never was.

Blogger Dave August 27, 2017 12:59 PM  

Human group dynamics dictates that when the diversity grows too big, the group becomes incooperable - the group interaction becomes impossible.

Whaddya wanna bet she feelz this is pertinent to IQ only?

Blogger VD August 27, 2017 1:01 PM  

Do you think that the fact that you were into sports might have helped you avoid the loneliness, VD?

Absolutely. I think it was vital for my learning to understand not to view less-intelligent people as "herd animals" or worse less in any way than myself. I am good at X. He is good at Y. He is good at Z. We all have our part to play.

That is something team sports teaches you to understand to the bone. And there is no substitute for the confidence that comes from success.

Blogger Samuel M August 27, 2017 1:03 PM  

I've honestly never had a huge problem with the isolation. While I do get lonely, it beats the alternative.

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr August 27, 2017 1:05 PM  

Interesting theory. It fits my own experience. I'm +3 SD, and there are a whole lot of people that I find duller than dishwater. Decent people, but I have to step down the intellectual voltage to communicate with them.

It plays hell with your dating life, too.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 27, 2017 1:07 PM  

Samuel M wrote:I've honestly never had a huge problem with the isolation. While I do get lonely, it beats the alternative.

If there were a pill to make me a 100-IQ normie, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 27, 2017 1:08 PM  

And I'm not even that smart, GENIUS notwithstanding.

Anonymous Killua August 27, 2017 1:08 PM  

I was one of the nerdy kids at school, and I also had a hard time getting dates. Fortunately, one of my college friend was into PUA stuff and showed me some game stuff. Getting into PUA lairs and going sarging with other guys helped a lot.

It's not only harder for them to find friends, it is MUCH harder for them to find romance. A man is just as happy with a less intelligent woman as a more intelligent woman

This exactly. Personally, I mostly care about appearance in a girlfriend. But most women I have met do want a smart/successful guy as their boyfriend.

Blogger S1AL August 27, 2017 1:09 PM  

I wonder if this is related to the inability of certain elements to understand that Average Joe's opinion is what matters, not the opinion of the other side's pundits.

Anonymous Looking Glass August 27, 2017 1:09 PM  

I always found having my head in the clouds & manipulating middle-aged Women to be far more interesting, anyway.

What? I didn't have anything else to do in school. Manipulating the teacher made my life so much easier. (Though I do try to be careful with that, now.)

As for dealing with normals, I found pretty early on that just asking questions & getting people to talk was the real key. It takes a lot of energy to wrangle together coherent thoughts, especially verbally, so it's easier to just let others talk. Though figuring out the line for when to interrupt someone that's being stupid is an artform. Too early and you're rude; too late, and you're just a smug asshole. I tend to favor interrupting early, as it's not worth letting someone prattle on for 15 minutes like an idiot. For everyone involved.

Blogger KSC August 27, 2017 1:10 PM  

That last line is important. This took me a long time to realize. Once I realized "most people will never have the kind of interests you do, nor even be able to understand why you find those interests important", it made it much easier to relate to people on their own terms rather than either expecting everyone to live up to my standard (and thus coming across as a jerk) or being bitter about how stupid everyone else is (again, coming across as a jerk.) Most of the wisest people I know are not geniuses; but they are better people than I am in the important ways.

Anonymous Looking Glass August 27, 2017 1:12 PM  

@21 KSC

Once you accept you're the oddball & roll with it, you'll be fine. Though learning a few parlor tricks isn't a bad idea either.

Blogger centexguy August 27, 2017 1:15 PM  

Thanks for posting this article, I'll have to show it to my son who probably has an IQ of 130 or higher. This does help explain his behavior growing up and his disdain for most people.

Blogger VD August 27, 2017 1:19 PM  

I wonder if this is related to the inability of certain elements to understand that Average Joe's opinion is what matters, not the opinion of the other side's pundits.

Unlikely. Most of them aren't that smart. They're gamma midwits, not omega VHIQ.

I'll have to show it to my son who probably has an IQ of 130 or higher. This does help explain his behavior growing up and his disdain for most people.

It might help to remind him that he HAS to learn how to accommodate them, because there are so many more of him than there are of them. Even if your IQ is 150, you're seldom going to beat 10 100-IQ enemies who gang up on you, let alone 100.

Blogger Lance E August 27, 2017 1:19 PM  

Can confirm both the communication gap and the value of team sports.

Making it into the elite institutions allowed me to see the cringe-inducing awkwardness of other people trying to communicate across the gap. Until then, I'd just assumed it was unique to me. It also revealed the shocking intellectual tribalism of the midwits, totally secure in their superiority over the plebs yet wholly unable to understand their own limitations.

Woe unto the genius who is physically awkward. Team sports and shooting sports are great equalizers and build stronger bonds than any deep intellectual conversation ever could. I wonder if that's why progs want to destroy them.

Blogger S1AL August 27, 2017 1:21 PM  

"Unlikely. Most of them aren't that smart. They're gamma midwits, not omega VHIQ."

Hm. Fair. So an inability to comprehend a difference in perspective unrelated to intelligence, then? I can't come up with another explanation. Well, except for a willful destructiveness... and, like you said, gamma.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother August 27, 2017 1:22 PM  

Is this the explanation for your love of baby metal?

Anonymous Stickwick August 27, 2017 1:23 PM  

If there's been one consistent theme in my life, it's solitude.

I've been fortunate beyond all reason in romance, but my social life isn't so hot. I've always wanted female friendships, but have failed at this more often than succeeded. I've always found males easier to be around, and assumed it was a combination of mutual interests and the fact that they're more predictable and more tolerant of quirks and unusualness than females are.

Maybe the underlying reason for this is intelligence. There's a larger pool of IQ-compatible people available in the male population -- especially given my areas of interest -- than in the female. That wasn't a problem when I was a kid -- nobody looks askance at an adolescent girl having a social circle comprised mostly of boys -- but when you're older, and especially when everyone is paired off, people become suspicious of women who prefer to hang around men. As a result, my social circle has narrowed considerably over the years, to the point of almost total isolation.

Men seem more adaptable to isolation than women -- sometimes even preferring it -- but it's absolute hell for us women.

(It doesn't help that I live in Berkeley-in-Texas with the added element of philosophical insanity that pervades the region. I've been fortunate to befriend a couple of Ilk wives over the last year, but, wisely, they've chosen to live far from the epicenter of madness here, so spending time together is difficult. Especially when hurricanes conspire to close roads.)

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother August 27, 2017 1:24 PM  

Go shoot some guns, hit the gym and play sports. You'll find what you're looking for there.

Blogger pnq8787 August 27, 2017 1:28 PM  

This fits in with my thoughts that it is the high IQ people who invariable rise to the top and eventually betray their own co-ethnics. I had surmised that it was because they could benefit more by competing individually rather than as groups due to their competitive advantage whereas the average IQ person would benefit more by competing as groups. However, it seems that this woman calls those of similar IQ - those within +/- 2 st of her IQ - her "tribe". This means she has lost connection to those of her true ethnic tribe. Yet those of high IQ are the ones running everything, and they are mucking it up big time. High IQ are natural traitors to their nation.

So, in conclusion, always distrust those of high IQ. Distrust meritocracy and excessive inbreeding among the intellectual elites. Pol Pot was right.

Blogger S1AL August 27, 2017 1:29 PM  

@Stickwick -

That sounds familiar. I know a couple of women who are on the extreme end of the IQ curve (one of whom has The misfortune of being a conservative in Boston), and they fit that same stereotype. I'm not sure it can be solved aside from finding other couples in the same circumstances, and those are quite rare.

Anonymous Bell Worthington August 27, 2017 1:33 PM  

I'm not saying the concept of communication range is wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised if it leads to more than a few wrong conclusions. The theory appears as one that rests nicely at the confluence of ego, lack of self-awareness, and 10 minute online IQ tests.

"See mom. It's not that I have poor social skills. My IQ is just too high for those plebs. Did you happen to buy any more Cheetos?"

Anonymous Looking Glass August 27, 2017 1:35 PM  

@28 Stickwick

At the same rough Visual-Spatial skill level from at least one study, Men will attain a PhD in the sciences at about 8x the rate. High-level mental tasks are very isolating. Most Women don't have the *personality* to handle that type of career. The ones that do are normally real oddballs. So the natural instinct away from the isolating effects is definitely there.

Further, given the much tighter distribution among Women, you're much further of an outlier than a Man of similar cognitive ability would be. (The Women in my family have this same issue. They've noticeably made friends with Women that talk a lot more than they do. Probably the key there.) Plus, guys can talk sports. Always. Had a hilarious discussion one time with a man I know that's a professor. We couldn't come to the conclusion if we liked Sports or kept track so we always had something to talk about. I'm still not sure.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 27, 2017 1:35 PM  

Stg58/Animal Mother wrote:Go shoot some guns, hit the gym and play sports. You'll find what you're looking for there.

Only partially true. I played sports, shot reasonably well, and benched 200 as a freshman, and here I am. I'm sure it would have been much worse if I had been smaller and weaker than the other kids, but it's not a fix.

Blogger S1AL August 27, 2017 1:37 PM  

"Only partially true. I played sports, shot reasonably well, and benched 200 as a freshman, and here I am. I'm sure it would have been much worse if I had been smaller and weaker than the other kids, but it's not a fix."

Curiosity question - when did you realize you're an oddball, and how?

Anonymous Casey August 27, 2017 1:38 PM  

Back when my mind was still energetic to work its way through an IQ test, I usually landed on the cusp of the level that's being discussed here.

My way of dealing with it was silence. However, I chose a skilled trade which required occasional demonstrations of my relatively advanced reasoning abilities.

The result, alienation coupled with being chosen for the most challenging projects that came along.

I never got promoted, but I never got downsized, either.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 27, 2017 1:39 PM  

That's not even to suggest my childhood wasn't idyllic, it's just that I wasn't interested in people until I was 25 and had already burned out. Mostly I ignored them and it cost me big in the real world.

Blogger Lamarck Leland August 27, 2017 1:46 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger S1AL August 27, 2017 1:47 PM  

"My autistic side is still annoyed that running in public is verboten for adults. It's much more efficient to run, and you get the exercise too. But you gotta do what you gotta do."

Your autistic side could probably be convinced to accept that running is an indication of urgency and/or danger, and that doing so upsets the tranquility of daily life for everyone around you.

But that explanation does fit with a partial hypothesis I have someone in my head - namely, that it's important for people to realize that they're Odd early in adolescence.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 27, 2017 1:47 PM  

Aeoli Pera wrote:S1AL wrote:"Only partially true. I played sports, shot reasonably well, and benched 200 as a freshman, and here I am. I'm sure it would have been much worse if I had been smaller and weaker than the other kids, but it's not a fix."

Curiosity question - when did you realize you're an oddball, and how?


Probably around 16 or 17 (I was homeschooled through 13). I remember a friend explaining to his sister and her friends why I would sprint up their sidewalk to his house: "That's just Aeoli." This particular instance is kinda funny in retrospect, because the first thing I had said when I reached the house was "Would it be weird if I use your toothbrush?"

My autistic side is still annoyed that running in public is verboten for adults. It's much more efficient to run, and you get the exercise too. But you gotta do what you gotta do.


(Edited for corrections)

Anonymous Steve August 27, 2017 1:47 PM  

Yes, it's bollocks. And I think she's mistaking the effects of autism for the effect of smartism:

The higher IQ person will look like an incomprehensible nerd and the lower IQ as a moronic dullard - and they will not find anything common.

If you meet another chap who speaks the same language and you can't find mutual interests in one or more of: sports, music, drinking, movies, games, cars, travel, women, etc. then either or both of you have a bad case of the spergs.

Blogger Lance E August 27, 2017 1:47 PM  

Bell Worthington wrote:I'm not saying the concept of communication range is wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised if it leads to more than a few wrong conclusions. The theory appears as one that rests nicely at the confluence of ego, lack of self-awareness, and 10 minute online IQ tests.

"See mom. It's not that I have poor social skills. My IQ is just too high for those plebs. Did you happen to buy any more Cheetos?"


I'm not saying dumb people can't find some way to cheat at a poorly-administered IQ test, but really, who cares about a few outliers?

The fact is, most people who are > 130 are intensely introspective and spend enormous amounts of time trying to figure out intellectual solutions to bridge the gap. Game, for example, is one of those solutions. Demagoguery is another.

Blogger S1AL August 27, 2017 1:48 PM  

*simmering in my head

Anonymous CrystalBlue August 27, 2017 1:49 PM  

"Exclusion is the basis for co-operation." Pure doublethink. You can't cooperate with people you don't interact with.

As for the communication gap, the analysis is one-sided. Those of lower IQ can communicate up. After all, my IQ is much higher than my dog's, but I can tell what he wants. So the problem is communicating down. But smart people should be able to do this. After all, Einstein said, "You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother." Noblesse oblige.

Blogger S1AL August 27, 2017 1:52 PM  

"After all, my IQ is much higher than my dog's, but I can tell what he wants."

So... do you have meaningful conversations with your dog, or are you comparing midwits and nitwits to pets? Cause either of those is disturbing.

Blogger Dwight House August 27, 2017 1:53 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 27, 2017 1:53 PM  

S1AL wrote:"My autistic side is still annoyed that running in public is verboten for adults. It's much more efficient to run, and you get the exercise too. But you gotta do what you gotta do."

Your autistic side could probably be convinced to accept that running is an indication of urgency and/or danger, and that doing so upsets the tranquility of daily life for everyone around you.

But that explanation does fit with a partial hypothesis I have someone in my head - namely, that it's important for people to realize that they're Odd early in adolescence.


Extremely. If my life serves no purpose except to spread that meme, it will have been worth it. My parents did a lot of things right but they were still typical Boomers about "labels". Wouldn't want me identifying as an outsider, I might act out and become a 25-year-old handhold-less virgin dropout.

Anyway, I have Game now, and a job, and a wizard-tier, synthesized ability to read minds, but my life is still pretty f***ed over from that burnout. I fully intend to reproduce but I'll admit it's unlikely to happen.

Blogger Dwight House August 27, 2017 1:53 PM  

As someone who has no idea what my IQ score might be, do you think that it's possible for lower intelligent people to form meaningful relationships with those of significantly higher intelligence by, rather than excluding them, seeking them out for their intelligence? Would the high IQ individual become bored or frustrated to the point of leaving? Are there low IQ people who are nevertheless sufficiently wise enough to keep up?

Anonymous Casey August 27, 2017 1:54 PM  

When you communicate down you're labeled a patronizing azzhole,...usually verbalized as "I'll whup your ass!"

But I realize that few of you spent your life in a blue collar environment. So you can't possibly know that aspect of the topic.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 27, 2017 1:54 PM  

Cry of Wrath resonance intensifies...

It's only painful and lonely if you keep trying to be normal (you can't be).

You've got to let go of what you can't do and focus on what you can.

Anonymous Looking Glass August 27, 2017 1:54 PM  

pnq8787 wrote:This fits in with my thoughts that it is the high IQ people who invariable rise to the top and eventually betray their own co-ethnics. I had surmised that it was because they could benefit more by competing individually rather than as groups due to their competitive advantage whereas the average IQ person would benefit more by competing as groups. However, it seems that this woman calls those of similar IQ - those within +/- 2 st of her IQ - her "tribe". This means she has lost connection to those of her true ethnic tribe. Yet those of high IQ are the ones running everything, and they are mucking it up big time. High IQ are natural traitors to their nation.

So, in conclusion, always distrust those of high IQ. Distrust meritocracy and excessive inbreeding among the intellectual elites. Pol Pot was right.


Pol Pot mistook his Intellectuals for his Midwits. Midwits can ruin a society because they have more ego than sense. Your outliers need to be sent off to a cabin in the countryside and come back with Calculus. Much of the reason the West has technologically advanced beyond everyone else is due to that nature. Let the outliers go off on adventures, just so long as they don't try to take over the place. If you get one of those? Give them some Men & a boat and tell them to go conquer a foreign land. (Invariably, they do.)

Asian cultures are mostly conformist, so they shove their outliers into a box, crushing them. Western cultures let them become Mozart.

Blogger Timmy3 August 27, 2017 1:55 PM  

Just about everyone is smarter than the one below them. The thing is everyone is smarter in their area of expertise. No one is a smart generalist. Smart people are academics so you can say they are useless in the outside world.

Blogger Mastermind August 27, 2017 1:56 PM  

@23

Make sure to teach him about social hierarchies in general as well. I would have killed just to have the information I learned off the Internet in my twenties when I was between 5 and 16. I was not just considerably smarter than most of my peers but also tall and good looking. So I should've scored the jackpot, right? Unfortunately my father was an abusive drunkard so I quickly became conflict avoidant. My entire life revovled around trying to avoid another (usually unprovoked) beating. By the time I got to school I was an omega in an alpha male's body, which triggered competition from other alphas, and when it quickly became obvious I wasn't much of a challenge, relentless assaults from the lower ranks who could score easy points off me. And since my father would've never had my back with school administrators, I often couldn't even fight them and all I thought about when someone wailed on me was "what if I fight back and get expelled? What will my dad do to me?" Poor social skills and poor parenting are a lethal combination. Things only changed for me around the second year of high school when I found out on my own that publicly humiliating a bully would get them off your back and once you made an example of a couple of them. So at least I got to experience the last 2 years of high school as a reasonably normal (for me) kid.

Anonymous ben August 27, 2017 1:56 PM  

Stickwick's favorite thing to do on Saturdays when we were teenagers was watch college football with me all day. I was surprised at how much she really got into it, especially for the Sooners games, right Stickwick?

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 27, 2017 1:57 PM  

"In that refusal to admit that they are making a choice, many a gamma male is made."

As soon as someone says "I didn't have a choice" my custom response is.

"I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt by assuming you're lying, because if you aren't, you're either an animal or a soulless machine and should be dealt with accordingly."

Anonymous Steve August 27, 2017 1:59 PM  

do you think that it's possible for lower intelligent people to form meaningful relationships with those of significantly higher intelligence

Absolutely.

As long as she has a nice pair of baps.

Blogger bruce August 27, 2017 1:59 PM  

A lot of college politics these days is today's average 100 IQ students of today mobbing what's left of the old average 115 IQ college culture.

Blogger pnq8787 August 27, 2017 2:00 PM  

If "Jewishness" is derived from the mother's side and women are naturally hypergamous and men are not, then that alone could explain the high Jewish IQ.

Blogger S1AL August 27, 2017 2:01 PM  

"My parents did a lot of things right but they were still typical Boomers about "labels". Wouldn't want me identifying as an outsider, I might act out and become a 25-year-old handhold-less virgin dropout."

To be fair to your parents, that has virtually nothing to do with labels, and everything to do with the fact that they literally cannot understand how you see the world any more than you can understand how a normie does. Solomon had something to say about that, as I recall.

But acceptance is the first step - and I don't mean being accepted. The most unapologetic people I've ever met are those who refuse to accept who they are - strengths and weaknesses alike.

Anonymous Looking Glass August 27, 2017 2:02 PM  

Dwight House wrote:As someone who has no idea what my IQ score might be, do you think that it's possible for lower intelligent people to form meaningful relationships with those of significantly higher intelligence by, rather than excluding them, seeking them out for their intelligence? Would the high IQ individual become bored or frustrated to the point of leaving? Are there low IQ people who are nevertheless sufficiently wise enough to keep up?

Few realize the value. The Wise do, but they're rare. Though I do get a collection of people that always have questions when they see me. Part of the Gap is painful for those in with a much lower specific mental ability because the high-IQ person can think through a problem in a few seconds that someone might have spent hours on. Then you get questions like "how did you come up with that?".

Reality is that the smarter you are & the more time you spend "thinking", the more practice you have to draw on. Along with a refined understanding of your thinking pattern & strengths. "Advanced Mental Culling Ability"? That's really what we're doing. Granted, the times when you have to answer the question, "why did you spend 3 hours reading about South Pacific Birds?" can get odd.

Blogger S1AL August 27, 2017 2:02 PM  

*sigh* "Unhappy", not "unapologetic"

Blogger tuberman August 27, 2017 2:03 PM  

In environments where the work is physically hard, and everyone that can,chips in a does their part, or even goes beyond the expected, a greater IQ range gets along.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 27, 2017 2:03 PM  

"I am good at X. He is good at Y. He is good at Z. We all have our part to play."

Yep. Gotta line up Intellectuality vs. Physicality preferences, (QoL vs Simplicity of Life).

Also gotta realize that wisdom is more important than either in the long run.

Anonymous CrystalBlue August 27, 2017 2:05 PM  

S1AL wrote:So... do you have meaningful conversations with your dog,
Sure. "Bangs paw on bowl" means "feed me." Jumps in lap means "cuddle me." Getting close and panting either means "I'm thirsty" or "I need to go out." The other way, "Oh, boy!" (with rising inflection) means "it's time for you to be fed." "Get in your crate" means "get in your crate".

These conversations are meaningful. Not deep, mind you, but meaningful.

Blogger Nathan August 27, 2017 2:06 PM  

And that is on major reason why Jesus taught in parables. The wise can communicate to almost everyone through simple stories with characters and illuminate the core dynamics of their wisdom.

Anonymous Looking Glass August 27, 2017 2:07 PM  

Wisdom trumps Intelligence. I realized about 6 the lesson of Solomon: Wisdom opens up every other possibility. That's a lesson you'll never get in church, because you might find out the pastor is a fool.

Blogger Matthew August 27, 2017 2:10 PM  

The communication and even companionship picks up again at maybe -45 points. I get along just fine with the 110s and under, and always have.

Blogger VD August 27, 2017 2:11 PM  

I remember a friend explaining to his sister and her friends why I would sprint up their sidewalk to his house: "That's just Aeoli." This particular instance is kinda funny in retrospect, because the first thing I had said when I reached the house was "Would it be weird if I use your toothbrush?"

You clearly never grasped that sometimes weirdness is not the consequence of high intelligence. It's just weird.

My friend once told me about the guy in his programming class who INSISTED on taking off his coat by draping the back of the jacket over the back of the chair, then leaning forward and withdrawing his arms because it was more "efficient". He wasn't the smartest guy in the class. He wasn't the best programmer. He was just a weird little guy.

Blogger Matthew August 27, 2017 2:13 PM  

Stickwick wrote:(It doesn't help that I live in Berkeley-in-Texas with the added element of philosophical insanity that pervades the region. I've been fortunate to befriend a couple of Ilk wives over the last year, but, wisely, they've chosen to live far from the epicenter of madness here, so spending time together is difficult. Especially when hurricanes conspire to close roads.)

I done told you to move out here already.

Blogger Lance E August 27, 2017 2:14 PM  

Dwight House wrote:As someone who has no idea what my IQ score might be, do you think that it's possible for lower intelligent people to form meaningful relationships with those of significantly higher intelligence by, rather than excluding them, seeking them out for their intelligence? Would the high IQ individual become bored or frustrated to the point of leaving? Are there low IQ people who are nevertheless sufficiently wise enough to keep up?

There's one thing a lot of people miss about IQ, which is that the bell-curve distribution exists because cognitive scientists wanted to model it that way, and not because IQ is a linear measure of intelligence.

IQ as a measure of pattern-recognition and problem-solving speed is closer to a log scale. Take sound as an example: 90 dB SPL is a bit loud, but 160 dB SPL is incredibly painful and can literally knock you out. For IQ, every +10 increase is about double the "performance".

Imagine the difference between IQ 100 and IQ 150 as being the difference between a Commodore 64 (1 MHz) and a modern 10 GHz gaming PC. It's a moral judgment because, as Vox has pointed out, different people are good at different things. Nevertheless, if you have a top-of-the-line PC, and your friend has a C64, there aren't many games you'll be able to play together, and if you stick to the games he can play, then you are not going to be very satisfied.

It's unfair, but life generally is.

Blogger VD August 27, 2017 2:14 PM  

The wise can communicate to almost everyone through simple stories with characters and illuminate the core dynamics of their wisdom.

And then they crucify you....

Anonymous Forrest Bishop August 27, 2017 2:15 PM  

CrystalBlue wrote:"Exclusion is the basis for co-operation." Pure doublethink. You can't cooperate with people you don't interact with.

So the problem is communicating down. But smart people should be able to do this. After all, Einstein said, "You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother." Noblesse oblige.


It is not doublethink. Exclusion is selective and discriminatory- you exclude the disruptive elements. If you didn't, the enterprise would degenerate into chaos, a theme we've seen explored here once or twice. Or maybe every other post. All were invited to the Tower of Babel, remember?

These is a related concept, that "without barriers to communication, there can be no communication".

Also, Einstein was a fraud and given to plagiarizing. His followers have continued that behavior, so careful when you attribute anything at all to him.

Blogger Lance E August 27, 2017 2:15 PM  

^ That was supposed to say: it's not a moral judgment.

Blogger tuberman August 27, 2017 2:16 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger wrf3 August 27, 2017 2:16 PM  

VD wrote:And then they crucify you....
And then you rise from the dead.

Anonymous Jack Amok August 27, 2017 2:17 PM  

If you meet another chap who speaks the same language and you can't find mutual interests in one or more of: sports, music, drinking, movies, games, cars, travel, women, etc. then either or both of you have a bad case of the spergs.

I agree with Steve as far as friendship goes. But the communication part is still relevant, though maybe it's more of a trough than a range.

I can communicate fine with people of average intelligence and with the really smart. It's midwits who are the problem. Average IQ folks will listen and ask questions, so it's not that hard to explain something to them (at least well enough for them to do their part). And then really smart people will comprehend things without lots of detail. Midwits won't comprehend without the detail, but won't pay attention to a detailed explanation.

So maybe it's just a trough, or maybe it's just midwits.

Anonymous CrystalBlue August 27, 2017 2:18 PM  

Forrest Bishop wrote:It is not doublethink. Exclusion is selective and discriminatory- you exclude the disruptive elements.
Which means you don't cooperate with them. Duh.

Blogger tuberman August 27, 2017 2:24 PM  

Timmy3 wrote:Just about everyone is smarter than the one below them. The thing is everyone is smarter in their area of expertise. No one is a smart generalist. Smart people are academics so you can say they are useless in the outside world.

Nonsense! A great Generalist is a person that observes and is good at connecting dots between multiple areas, and does not have to be a Renaissance Man. People who acutely look into small, important differences in similar items, and see small, but important similarities in differing items are a couple of examples of this.

IQ counts, and many of the upper decreed people are midwits at best. Broad curiosity, depth, and density, and the ability to follow up on worthwhile lines of thought are critical.

Anonymous Anonymous August 27, 2017 2:24 PM  

richard proenneke-high iq in isolation.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 27, 2017 2:25 PM  

I think I was lucky in that my folks and siblings were at least above average, probably all within that 2SD, so I spent most of my time with people who could understand me, and didn't have to grow up with this kind of loneliness.

So the problem is communicating down. But smart people should be able to do this.

It's harder than you'd think. Recently I was talking to a relative who's 3-4 SD below me. I had a topic ready, something I'd done that week that was right in his wheelhouse. I told him about it, and....nothing. I thought it would spark a conversation about what he does, and he just shrugged. Now, it's possible he had something else on his mind or was having a bad day, I don't know. But the point is, yes, you can try to figure out how to communicate, but it's a little like using a foreign language. It's awkward and doesn't always come out right.

If you meet another chap who speaks the same language and you can't find mutual interests in one or more of: sports, music, drinking, movies, games, cars, travel, women, etc. then either or both of you have a bad case of the spergs.

In general, I agree, but it still takes work. A 100-IQ friend might want to talk about how movies suck today, but not be interested in my theories about how postmodernism is to blame. He may want to talk about how his team's QB should be traded, and not want to hear stats showing that the QB is actually doing a good job. If I don't filter my thoughts and leave out a lot of what comes to my mind on those topics, he may come away thinking I have a bad case of the spergs, in fact.

So yes, it can be done. But it doesn't come naturally, and it's not as easy as picking a "simple" topic. It helps a lot if you're actually interested in the simpler aspects of things, and not just the intellectual ones. If you enjoy the rah-rah smashmouth side of football and not just the strategy and stats, for instance.

Anonymous Looking Glass August 27, 2017 2:31 PM  

@80 Cail Corishev

People don't quite get the difference when it comes to simple questions:

"How was the movie?".

High IQ: 3000 words on the narrative structure, pros & cons of the directorial choices, comments on the lighting & cinematography and a general appraisal of how it fits in current trends.

Normal person: Eh, it was fine.



The important point: these are the exact same responses. You both have the same opinion, "it was fine", but the high IQ individual can give you a detailed set of reasons why. Not because they thought of it, but because that's what they remembered while watching it.

Anonymous Forrest Bishop August 27, 2017 2:32 PM  

CrystalBlue wrote:Forrest Bishop wrote:It is not doublethink. Exclusion is selective and discriminatory- you exclude the disruptive elements.

Which means you don't cooperate with them. Duh.


Why yes, you're absolutely right! And?

Blogger Tino August 27, 2017 2:34 PM  

@71, Ain't that the truth and The Truth...

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 27, 2017 2:36 PM  

@33. Looking Glass, "Plus, guys can talk sports. Always."

I can talk sports I actually play or have played, but I can't talk current sports or popular sports I haven't participated in to save my life. I've tried to follow them a few times, but if there were ever a time I manifested ADHD, that was it. As far as I can tell I'm constitutionally incapable.

"it's just that I wasn't interested in people until I was 25 and had already burned out. Mostly I ignored them and it cost me big in the real world."

I tried and still try. Mostly I just get "you're an a**hole" reactions from trying too hard. Still trying to find a balance that allows me to find a spouse. Mostly handicapped by being "anti-social" (More like "Can't-isocial"!) to the point I heavily prefer solitude.

Main problems being that I'm only comfortable so far away from the rest of the world that my drive to acquire attractive assets has been obliterated. "It doesn't really matter" is a constant demon in my ear.

"If you meet another chap who speaks the same language and you can't find mutual interests in one or more of: sports, music, drinking, movies, games, cars, travel, women, etc. then either or both of you have a bad case of the spergs."

Either or more of: zzzz-WHAT?/Trance-Ambient/Teetotaler/What?/Yes, but this is a sperg-aligned thing to begin with/they move, okay?/travel is good, but doesn't seem to come up much/Sure, but sadly men seem to like to be crass about women.

So, maybe I should focus on travel and women? No one has usually heard about the music I care for.

"he fact is, most people who are > 130 are intensely introspective and spend enormous amounts of time trying to figure out intellectual solutions to bridge the gap. Game, for example, is one of those solutions. Demagoguery is another."

Couldn't agree more. They turn inward because "There's nothing outside!"

""Exclusion is the basis for co-operation." Pure doublethink. You can't cooperate with people you don't interact with."

Derp. He's referring to "Us vs. Them" psychology (that all humans have built in) and cooperation in order to succeed in competition (with "outsiders"). Trying to deny basic human nature is the only doublethink I see here.

"But I realize that few of you spent your life in a blue collar environment. So you can't possibly know that aspect of the topic."

Actually, I find that that aspect of the problem goes away in a blue collar environment. I'm much more inclined to seek one for a job. Simple work, simple problems, simple words, easy. As others have said, hard physical labor has a nice way of "vanishing" any IQ gaps, because they don't come up in the first place.

"Your outliers need to be sent off to a cabin in the countryside and come back with Calculus."

True, but women typically aren't interested in a cabin in the countryside. We need offspring too. Patriacrhy, where are you when we need you?

Anonymous CrystalBlue August 27, 2017 2:37 PM  

Forrest Bishop wrote:Why yes, you're absolutely right! And?

Now compare it with the statement in the article: "Exclusion is the basis for co-operation."

This statement is clearly nonsense.

Blogger Jesse Jackson August 27, 2017 2:39 PM  

There is a pill you can take - oxycodone. Will dull your wits nicely, and make you feel so dam good.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 27, 2017 2:39 PM  

@71. VD,
>The wise can communicate to almost everyone through simple stories with characters and illuminate the core dynamics of their wisdom.

"And then they crucify you...."


*Cry of Wrath resonance intensifies.*

Blogger Matthew August 27, 2017 2:40 PM  

Jack Amok wrote:Average IQ folks will listen and ask questions, so it's not that hard to explain something to them (at least well enough for them to do their part).

Usually the average IQ folk are the ones explaining things to me. ("Your tie rod ends are shot, Matthew")

Blogger Matthew August 27, 2017 2:43 PM  

Azure Amaranthine wrote:"If you meet another chap who speaks the same language and you can't find mutual interests in one or more of: sports, music, drinking, movies, games, cars, travel, women, etc. then either or both of you have a bad case of the spergs."

Either or more of: zzzz-WHAT?/Trance-Ambient/Teetotaler/What?/Yes, but this is a sperg-aligned thing to begin with/they move, okay?/travel is good, but doesn't seem to come up much/Sure, but sadly men seem to like to be crass about women.

So, maybe I should focus on travel and women? No one has usually heard about the music I care for.


Make it an intellectual challenge to become interested in what someone besides yourself cares about. Builds character.

Blogger tuberman August 27, 2017 2:45 PM  

It is the midwit GATEKEEPERS that are the real problem. They get their degrees and certifications and keep the smarter, effective people out whenever they can.

Blogger Matthew August 27, 2017 2:45 PM  

> Couldn't agree more. They turn inward because "There's nothing outside!"

This is solipsism.

Almost everything outside is more important, more valuable, and more fulfilling than what you can produce inside.

Anonymous CrystalBlue August 27, 2017 2:45 PM  

Azure Amaranthine wrote:Trying to deny basic human nature is the only doublethink I see here.
You are confusing the inherent contradiction in the statement with whether or not cooperation should be attempted. You can't cooperate with people you exclude. This shouldn't be that hard to understand. Whether or not you should exclude people in your life is a different matter altogether.

Blogger DeploraBard August 27, 2017 2:46 PM  

The wise can communicate to almost everyone through simple stories with characters and illuminate the core dynamics of their wisdom.

And then they crucify you....

That was tragically comedic

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 27, 2017 2:47 PM  

@85. CrystalBlue, "Now compare it with the statement in the article: "Exclusion is the basis for co-operation."

This statement is clearly nonsense."


Are you or are you not aware of "Us vs. Them" and "Competitive Cooperation"?

That you did not understand does not make it wrong.

Blogger tuberman August 27, 2017 2:51 PM  

Matthew wrote:> Couldn't agree more. They turn inward because "There's nothing outside!"

This is solipsism.

Almost everything outside is more important, more valuable, and more fulfilling than what you can produce inside.


Please define What is Inside, and What is outside? I've honestly lost track.

Anonymous JI August 27, 2017 2:54 PM  

If this is true, then any white person with an IQ of 115 or above, and that is over 15% of the white population (assuming mean IQ = 100, std dev = 15), cannot communicate with at least 50% of the black population (assuming mean IQ = 85, std dev = 15). Since the more intelligent tend to rise to the top, our elites and leaders have no possibility of communicating with the majority of blacks. And the majority of blacks not only can't communicate with our elites/leaders, they have no possibility of even comprehending them. The same would be even more true of the relationship between Asians and blacks.

To me, this means blacks need to appoint as their leaders only the most extremely intelligent blacks (i.e., bare minimum 3-sigma above the black average, but better 4-sigma) just so their representatives can comprehend and communicate with the leaders of the Asians and Whites. If there are 33 million black adults in the US, then there are about 45,000 black adults with at least a +3-sigma IQ, and only about a thousand +4-sigma black adults. That's a very small and hence valuable pool of people.

Blogger Matthew August 27, 2017 2:56 PM  

tuberman wrote:Please define What is Inside, and What is outside? I've honestly lost track.

Inside your head. Outside, the real world.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 27, 2017 2:57 PM  

VD wrote: I remember a friend explaining to his sister and her friends why I would sprint up their sidewalk to his house: "That's just Aeoli." This particular instance is kinda funny in retrospect, because the first thing I had said when I reached the house was "Would it be weird if I use your toothbrush?"

You clearly never grasped that sometimes weirdness is not the consequence of high intelligence. It's just weird.

My friend once told me about the guy in his programming class who INSISTED on taking off his coat by draping the back of the jacket over the back of the chair, then leaning forward and withdrawing his arms because it was more "efficient". He wasn't the smartest guy in the class. He wasn't the best programmer. He was just a weird little guy.


I understand it plenty, see @17. My IQ is only 140 or so, and there are approximately 3 million Americans smarter than me, and some of them are so much smarter that I'd be more effective packing their lunches.

Genius is compulsive problem-solving, which is only tangentially related to high IQ. (Please note the difference between math problems and exercises.)

Anonymous CrystalBlue August 27, 2017 2:59 PM  

Azure Amaranthine wrote:Are you or are you not aware of "Us vs. Them" and "Competitive Cooperation"?
Yes. "Us vs. Them" doesn't preclude cooperation -- unless you exclude them. "Competitive Cooperation" (e.g. zero-sum games) can't happen if you exclude your opponent. You can't play against a rival football team if you lock them out of the stadium.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 27, 2017 3:02 PM  

In the same way that Alphas like Trump are addicted to more and better WINNING, geniuses are addicted to more and better insights.

Blogger tuberman August 27, 2017 3:03 PM  

"To me, this means blacks need to appoint as their leaders only the most extremely intelligent blacks (i.e., bare minimum 3-sigma above the black average, but better 4-sigma) just so their representatives can comprehend and communicate with the leaders of the Asians and Whites. If there are 33 million black adults in the US, then there are about 45,000 black adults with at least a +3-sigma IQ, and only about a thousand +4-sigma black adults. That's a very small and hence valuable pool of people."

What are the chances of that? The vast majority of high IQ Blacks are rejected by their own people, and tend to hang out with Whites, unless given some special immediate promotion, from which they are expected to kiss activist butts for a lifetime.

High IQ blacks if not given huge activist inspired privileges, end up mostly avoiding most other blacks.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 27, 2017 3:03 PM  

@92. CrystalBlue, I see you as an opportunity for practice.

"You are confusing the inherent contradiction in the statement with whether or not cooperation should be attempted. You can't cooperate with people you exclude. This shouldn't be that hard to understand. Whether or not you should exclude people in your life is a different matter altogether."

"Exclusion is the basis for co-operation."

You think this is an oxymoronic statement. I'll try to lead you through the logic.

#1: Why do people cooperate? Two reasons.
A: To achieve goals not achievable alone.
B: To share in limited spoils that would otherwise not be shared.

Admittedly, (B) leans toward dishonest or parasitic behaviour, but it doesn't HAVE to be. For our purposes, in mode (B), outside of cooperation for those spoils, there can only be competition. We're assuming limited spoils, because the physical world works that way.

#2: What goals are not achievable alone? Really, almost everything outside of social interactions is achievable alone, given sufficient time.

However, we're mortal. Time is very limited. In addition, we need to breathe, sleep, eat and drink almost constantly in order to extend our time as much as possible.

Resources being limited, we cooperate to acquire them within the time limits nature imposes.

#3: This does, in fact, necessitate competition. Even if there are no other people competing, we're competing with nature, or animals, or even our own limits.

#4: Because we're not at the Beginning of Time (TM) most of the (easiest) available resources are already being "squatted" on by other human beings. There comes a point where the "harder to acquire" resources take too long to acquire, even with cooperation.

#5: Eventually, you recognize the resources you CAN go for, and the people who are unlikely to be able to completely deny them to you. If you equally cannot likely deny those resources to them, cooperation is likely in order to secure those resources from "outside" entities. Thus, people seek people who are like them to cooperate with, and exclude people unlike them.


THUS:

"Exclusion is the basis for co-operation." Holds true in all instances where competition is not solely against nature itself, which is virtually all instances.

I'd exclude the exceptionally gifted who can liberate "extremely difficult" resources from nature (resources no one else is competing for), but there are certain subclasses of the "not-so-gifted" who thrive on liberating those same resources from the exceptionally gifted themselves.

Any resources that any individual can liberate from nature are inevitably on the table for hostile competition.

Blogger Quilp August 27, 2017 3:05 PM  

I found early on that merely discussing social conventions and rituals that didn't seem to serve any purpose, even among those who were supposedly rebels, brought only blank stares, uncomfortable fidgeting, and little conversation. It did take me quite some time to understand most weren't just uncomfortable, they simply didn't have the capacity to "step outside" their own environment & recognize they were making choices, as was I.

Books (at least in my day) helped me understand I wasn't the first to struggle, to make choices, and even that some of those choices can turn out bad. How you respond when they do turn out bad is what determines who you are.

I played a lot of sports as well. It helped that i had at least some athletic ability. I started out in football (linebacker and Offensive lineman), moved to midfielder on the Soccer team after years of pushing that damn blocking sled around every afternoon, and I was much much happier. But where I really shined was Track. My will vs my body was where I learned a different kind discipline, and more importantly, that often someone born with more athletic talent than I could best my best day without really even trying.

Anonymous Stickwick August 27, 2017 3:08 PM  

ben: Stickwick's favorite thing to do on Saturdays when we were teenagers was watch college football with me all day. I was surprised at how much she really got into it, especially for the Sooners games, right Stickwick?

I still have football trauma from those years. Just the sound of a ref’s whistle is enough to give me the twitches. That said, I wish I’d gone to more of your games.

Matthew: I done told you to move out here already.

I'd love to be closer to M and H, but the catastrophic wildfires and floods are a bit much.

Counter-proposal: we all buy adjoining ranches in Liberty Hill or Fredericksburg.

Blogger tz August 27, 2017 3:09 PM  

I can communicate down the IQ ladder, I think at least 7SD. But it takes effort, and being near the top, the first thing I have to do is figure out the communication window - what culture is in common (even things like Marvel Movies) and what they mean by the vocabulary.

At the other end I've seen the problem and I can't get around it because it isn't a matter of culture, and vocabulary doesn't work if my scientific 5000 words don't overlap their literary or legal 5000 words. E.g. someone using legalese to a non-lawyer - I can detect some but can't correct for it. I don't use terms like "push the thread on a stack" except with computer nerds. Even worse, the tendency if you don't pause is the frustration in not being understood has a tendency to respond by doubling down with the argot unfamiliar to 99% of the population, analogies even fewer might have read, and a tone which is honest but sounds condescending.

The thing is you have to learn how to talk to your children. You simply accept their vocabulary is growing. You don't expect parity. It isn't efficent, but you want to find the window of communication.

Like many of the other aid books like Gorilla Mindset, it depends on what you want to achieve. If communication is the goal, it can be done with a little effort to establish the window. I think it would even be possible from the bottom end. It wasn't just Jesus, but St. Paul who had to communicate.

In my case, I think I was 7 or 8 and prefered to talk with adults when at parties and I was able to hold my own on several subjects. I didn't watch cartoons, they had college credit courses in the early morning and evening on the TV. (Note my relatives were at least 1SD even if they were blue collar) 2 years later I started noting the eyes glaze over phenomenon except for the 3SD+.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 27, 2017 3:10 PM  

@91. Matthew, "> Couldn't agree more. They turn inward because "There's nothing outside!"

This is solipsism.

Almost everything outside is more important, more valuable, and more fulfilling than what you can produce inside."


Depends on what your goals are.

I'll assume, for the sake of argument, that we both place value on material goods and intellectual accomplishments.

Obviously I was exaggerating and making a black-humour joke. The communications difficulties lead us to believe that there is something "wrong" with ourselves. We can't communicate effectively in many regards, hence, "There's nothing outside!" Thus we look inwards where we CAN see ("But there's stuff in here!" in an attempt to "fix" that problem that causes isolation.

Blogger DeploraBard August 27, 2017 3:10 PM  

96) If this is true, then any white person with an IQ of 115 or above, and that is over 15% of the white population (assuming mean IQ = 100, std dev = 15), cannot communicate with at least 50% of the black population (assuming mean IQ = 85, std dev = 15). Since the more intelligent tend to rise to the top, our elites and leaders have no possibility of communicating with the majority of blacks. And the majority of blacks not only can't communicate with our elites/leaders, they have no possibility of even comprehending them. The same would be even more true of the relationship between Asians and blacks.

Ding, Ding, Ding

And they are so antisocial, you cannot suffer them gladly. Just returned from a 30 day deployment to South Africa. Experiencing the muthaland explains everything

Blogger Tatooine Sharpshooters' Club August 27, 2017 3:11 PM  

The whole thing reads to me like an attempt to clothe the "I intimidate people with my intelligence because all I ever talk about is how smart I am" feminine trope with a gloss of SCIENCE! I realize the subject is high IQ, but judging from this post, it seems to be the only filter through which she views the world (and apparently she can judge the IQ of others with great precision just by looking).

Blogger VD August 27, 2017 3:17 PM  

Genius is compulsive problem-solving, which is only tangentially related to high IQ. (Please note the difference between math problems and exercises.)

No. Genius is unique accomplishment. There are very, very, very few genuine geniuses.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 27, 2017 3:17 PM  

@99. CrystalBlue, "Yes. "Us vs. Them" doesn't preclude cooperation -- unless you exclude them. "Competitive Cooperation" (e.g. zero-sum games) can't happen if you exclude your opponent."

Us vs Them literally means that "Us" is cooperating to the exclusion of "Them". It Actually, Literally precludes cooperation with "Them". You're flat wrong.

Similarly, by "Cooperative Competition" I was not referring to zero-sum games. I was actually referring to Cooperation in order to Compete with a superior opponent or cooperative.

"You can't play against a rival football team if you lock them out of the stadium."

You don't have to play. If they don't show up, and your methods weren't against the rules, you win by default by stopping them from playing.

In addition, team games are just that. Both sides are actually cooperating with each other to hone both sides, with no survival-necessity resources at stake. Seizing the supply of food in September, or the supply of women, on the other hand... distinctly unfriendly and, yes, zero-sum. Your analogy is flawed.

Blogger SteelPalm August 27, 2017 3:21 PM  

Like Vox, I disagree with the quoted portion. I have an IQ of about 150 (first and hopefully last time I mention it anywhere) and have had worthwhile, meaningful interactions with folks with IQs in the 90s. Oftentimes, I have learned something new, or the other person shows that they are smarter or more competent than me in some endeavor.

I will take a decent, honest man with an IQ in the 90s over an arrogant, gamma type with an IQ in the 110s one encounters so often in the tech/science industries any day.

Incidentally, I have observed the same thing with people who are much smarter than me. They too have excellent interactions with folks 50+ IQ points lower than themselves. But these friends were all men.

The problem, as Vox rightly pointed out, is with the writer being a woman.

Women are often incapable of accepting a male partner who is of even slightly lower intelligence, or friends who aren't on their IQ level.

Blogger VD August 27, 2017 3:21 PM  

it seems to be the only filter through which she views the world (and apparently she can judge the IQ of others with great precision just by looking).

It almost certainly is. She almost certainly can. I've had highly intelligent women recognize me as being "in their league" without me even opening my mouth.

The eyes really are the window to the soul.

The way I would describe it is a brightness, a spark, that most people's eyes are missing. It is very, very seldom that I later discover someone with the normal dull, glazed-over eyes is highly intelligent. And in almost every case, they were just masking the spark.

I've never managed to do that while sober, so I usually try to avoid eye contact if I don't want to betray myself.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 27, 2017 3:24 PM  

it's important for people to realize that they're Odd early in adolescence.

And how they're odd and what it means. I knew I was smart; that's hard to miss when your classmates are learning to add and you've used pi. But I had no idea how rare that was -- every class and school has a smartest kid, right? -- or what else went along with it, especially anything negative. I was shy and quiet enough that it didn't annoy people very often. (Though once my dad did say, "Is there anything you don't know?" so that wasn't always the case. I try to keep that in mind.) I didn't see the problems until much later, well after the chance for any adult-to-adolescent advice.

My nephew is smart, but he's also talkative and imperceptive enough that he comes off condenscending and dismissive and annoys the crap out of people. His dad and I have tried to get him to moderate it and think more about how other people are going to respond to him. It's helped, but I think a lot just comes down to innate personality. Aside from the male/female difference, some personality types will struggle with high IQ more than others.

Blogger DeploraBard August 27, 2017 3:27 PM  



3) S1AL

Until that moment, I never had a clue.

And that's the difference between wisdom and intelligence.

I had the exact same experience 2 years ago. I was embarrassed that it never occurred to me. In a way, it set me free. On the plus side, it spawned a whole new interest in human psychology, IQ, EQ, and self discovery that has led to some very positive personal growth.

Blogger tuberman August 27, 2017 3:29 PM  

Matthew wrote:tuberman wrote:Please define What is Inside, and What is outside? I've honestly lost track.

Inside your head. Outside, the real world.


Because metaphors....what is Inside or Outside is a bit fluid, as metaphors are an Inside your head view of the Outside world. But I'm not picking on you, actually wanted you to look at something in a slightly different way. So I meant it as a complement. Too spergy though, so I will drop it.

Anonymous Casey August 27, 2017 3:32 PM  

The way I would describe it is a brightness, a spark, that most people's eyes are missing. It is very, very seldom that I later discover someone with the normal dull, glazed-over eyes is highly intelligent.

I've got a 7 month old Labrador pup that has more expression in his face than many people I know. It's particularly interesting to watch him manipulate his eyebrows and move his eyes around.

Many dogs will raise their head and turn it in your direction if you call their name.

This pup just raises his eyebrows and rolls his eyes in your direction.

Blogger DeploraBard August 27, 2017 3:34 PM  

The way I would describe it is a brightness, a spark, that most people's eyes are missing. It is very, very seldom that I later discover someone with the normal dull, glazed-over eyes is highly intelligent.

I look for intensity in the eyes. That, along with physiognomy and body language are very accurate.

Blogger Zaklog the Great August 27, 2017 3:34 PM  

Yeah, I've never taken a standardized IQ test (i.e. anything that would qualify me for Mensa), but from various other measures, I suspect my IQ is approximately 140. Add into that a little bit of social awkwardness, and political beliefs that are held as "deplorable" by the established powers in this country, and, yeah, my life is pretty lonely a lot of the time.

But, what are you going to do about it? Would I choose to have a lower IQ? Probably not. Would I change my political beliefs? Not unless rationally argued out of them, which few people seem even willing to attempt.

Live your life and do the best you can.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 27, 2017 3:35 PM  

@108. Tatooine, "The whole thing reads to me like an attempt to clothe the "I intimidate people with my intelligence because all I ever talk about is how smart I am" feminine trope with a gloss of SCIENCE!"

To be fair, everyone tends to talk about their interests. In addition, people tend to develop interest in things they are good at.

Yes, there's some bi***ing by people who just want to complain about their feels. That's the norm no matter the IQ. Feeling/emotion/desire are the sole impetus for the human being. No amount of logic can answer even the simple question "should I go on living?" without a basis on an axiom of emotion or feeling, "I don't want to die" or "dying is painful" or "I'm afraid of what happens after dying".

That being said, the IQ communication gap is a very real thing. Highly intelligent people have interests and preferences that people of normal or lower IQ simply cannot comprehend because it lies entirely outside of their realm of experience. Similarly, highly unintelligent people will place all value on the more limited range of simple things that they can comprehend.

Simple people are worried about things like "how will I eat tonight?" and "is she a trustworthy mate? (NAW MAN, SHE A HO!)". Very intelligent people are worried about "What will my great grandchildren be teaching my great great grandchildren forty years after I'm dead?" and "will my species survive the creation of a superior machine intelligence? Is such a thing even possible?"

The simple people have simple problems and interests. The less simple people have the simple things (mostly) covered (or think they do at least), so all of their problems and interests are in the more esoteric. If you have enough of an IQ gap, people not only don't care about the same things, but don't even understand how people could care about such things, because those problems are things they've never experienced and/or cannot see in the first place.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 27, 2017 3:40 PM  

Are there low IQ people who are nevertheless sufficiently wise enough to keep up?

Wisdom ain't got nothin' to do with it. I'm not saying wisdom isn't important; it's just not intelligence. Neither one is a substitute for the other. A 180-IQ man without wisdom may fall in love with a whore; a wise man with a 90 IQ will fail calculus.

As for your larger question, it depends on the person. I think you've seen in this thread that it's hard for high-IQ people to communicate down, and some handle that better than others. If you have a high-IQ friend and he seems to enjoy spending time with you, I'd just accept it and be friends.

For what it's worth, when I'm talking to average people, I don't often think consciously about how slow they are. It's just kinda baked into the process -- this is what talking to people is like. (It comes to mind most often with midwits who are trying to sound smart.) I learned not to interrupt when I know what the rest of their sentence is going to be, which helps. To me, people are interesting, so even if the literal conversation itself isn't, there's usually another level that is.

And in terms of friendship, wisdom in a friend *is* highly valuable in itself.

Blogger Cail Corishev August 27, 2017 3:40 PM  

@67 Matthew, that's a good point. I can happily spend a day in a fishing boat with a friend who's 50-60 points different. There may not be tons of conversation, but there doesn't have to be, and what there is is pleasant. We're fishing, not trying to solve the world's problems.

Anonymous Stickwick August 27, 2017 3:42 PM  

Are high IQ women really mostly looking for men with IQs higher than theirs? I guess I can buy that, but it's never been the main thing I look for in a man. As long as a man's IQ is north of about 120, I'm mostly looking for someone with superior survival skills. For better or worse, the sort of gaze I look for in a man communicates, "I could kill you and everyone else here, but I probably won't."

Now, that sort of gaze coupled with an extremely high IQ seems like an unnecessarily dangerous combo, like borderline psychopathic. Not that we know anyone like that here, *ahem*, but there are exceptions, say, if such a man is a devout Christian.

Blogger Scott Birch August 27, 2017 3:42 PM  

That's what it's like sometimes.

Blogger Scott Birch August 27, 2017 3:43 PM  

May I ask your IQ?

Blogger Scott Birch August 27, 2017 3:46 PM  

Men can enjoy low IQ company, but not so much while working on important stuff. Women can, maybe, but they'll treat low IQ company like children.

Blogger SteelPalm August 27, 2017 3:48 PM  

@122 Stickwick "Are high IQ women really mostly looking for men with IQs higher than theirs? I guess I can buy that, but it's never been the main thing I look for in a man. As long as a man's IQ is north of about 120,"

You answered your own question. By contrast, a man is usually fine with almost any IQ woman.

Blogger Scott Birch August 27, 2017 3:49 PM  

Asians are also less altruistic, so the fruits of the mind weren't spread around generously. Industrial England was kind to its inventive eccentrics.

Blogger Scott Birch August 27, 2017 3:50 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Crew August 27, 2017 3:56 PM  

Let's see a pic. She might be fat an ugly!

Blogger Durandel Almiras August 27, 2017 3:59 PM  

@VD - I love the first sentence of the next paragraph, "The secret for happiness is to find your own tribe."

Yet $1000 says she probably proclaims "muh diversity" and doesn't even notice the dissonance.

I'm curious about her claim about sky divers and sailors. In my own interactions, I've never noticed either group as being anything more than slightly above average IQ (+1SD).

Blogger Lance E August 27, 2017 4:00 PM  

Well, Vox, it seems your audience has proven you wrong: it really is that hard to figure out. Even when the problem is explained in painfully blunt and detailed terms, a number of people (probably mids) will deny it on its face and insist that there must be some other explanation based on mysticism, woo, "EQ", etc. Quite a sight to behold.

Personally, I can't tell from someone's eyes whether or not they have the spark, but I can tell after a few minutes of conversation how quickly and accurately they're absorbing the information. Interestingly, even people of average intelligence seem to be able to do this. Among others, I've had it pointed out to me by a firearm instructor, motorcycle instructor, and personal trainer. Maybe this ability is more common in people who teach.

Blogger Scott Birch August 27, 2017 4:01 PM  

Normal: Eh, it was fine
High: 3000 words
VHIQ: Eh, it was fine

Anonymous Stickwick August 27, 2017 4:04 PM  

SteelPalm: You answered your own question. By contrast, a man is usually fine with almost any IQ woman.

My IQ is significantly higher than 120.

The claim is that most high-IQ women prefer men with even higher IQs. I don't relate to that. Obviously, there's a minimum intelligence level for compatibility with a spouse -- and I'm willing to bet that holds for most high-IQ men, too -- but it's never been important to me to be with a man whose intellect exceeds mine. As long as a man meets a certain minimum, there are other factors that are more important.

Blogger Scott Birch August 27, 2017 4:05 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Dedd Sirius August 27, 2017 4:10 PM  

To me, extreme intelligence is just the opposite end of the spectrum from a strong beast of burden. Both should be yoked and managed and exploited by people of average intelligence.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 27, 2017 4:10 PM  

@129. Crew, "Let's see a pic. She might be fat an ugly!"

In before "t*** or GTFO!"

Observably, men value beautiful women, and women value strong men. That strength may be physical or applied intellect, social or economic.

Really, Beauty is a woman's power. They can't compete with men in terms of strength at all, with men who are a similar ratio of the population as far as intelligence or with men as far as "Power, the capacity to do 'work'". Beauty is where it's at, because beauty is the best indicator of capacity to produce viable offspring. It's based on the sum-total of people seen, in some ways (because people seen are born of parents who successfully reproduced). Production of viable offspring is the main (or single) area that men simply can't do by themselves, so...

Blogger FrankNorman August 27, 2017 4:12 PM  

I think this turns a bit on what one defines as "meaningful communication". How to talk to people less intelligent than oneself is itself a thing to apply intelligence to.
Vox, you have dogs, right? And you can get them to understand what you want?

Blogger Scott Birch August 27, 2017 4:14 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Scott Birch August 27, 2017 4:17 PM  

John Wyndham wrote about his many-greats grandfather .

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 27, 2017 4:24 PM  

@137. Frank, your "argument from the dog" has already been made previously.

Tell me, how much time do you spend talking (communicating) to your dog? If the only thing you're getting out of the interaction is basic feels, you realize that men often do something similar with women?

The more intellectual a person is, often the more they try to distance themselves from feels. Feels often contradict each other, and intellect fails on contradictory input. Thus, intelligent people generally use their intelligence to attain "Only the BEST feels!" All feels to the contrary often fall by the wayside.

Intelligent people often get the best feels from things related to their intelligence. People like things they're good at because they can most easily acquire resources by doing things they're better at than other people, be they material, social capital or pure weapons-grade feels.

What I'm saying is, a smart person gets his feels (other than the very most basic ones) from sources others are often not even aware exist. He cares about different things. His world revolves around different things. The sum total of his experience is shifted, possibly to such an extent that it does not often overlap with a less-smart person's.

The communication gap exists.

Anonymous Avalanche August 27, 2017 4:29 PM  

@5 I may or may not choose to accommodate them - I usually don't - but at least I am aware that they don't get it.

My husband described himself as "a lonely lone wolf in the cow pasture that was the South."

Blogger Cail Corishev August 27, 2017 4:30 PM  

The claim is that most high-IQ women prefer men with even higher IQs.

My guess would be that the higher the woman is, the less important it is to have a man who is higher, because other factors matter too. Also, you're just not likely to meet that many men who are higher, and let's face it, they tend not to be overburdened with masculine physical qualities.

Also, paradoxically, I think very high-IQ people value it less than midwits do, because they better know the limits of it. You don't get annoyed at people for being slower when everyone's slower. A woman at 110, on the other hand, will probably be happier with a man above her than a man below. If she's always coming to conclusions a bit before him, and getting things right more often, and she regularly notices other men who are sharper than him, it will be harder for her to respect him.

Anonymous Avalanche August 27, 2017 4:43 PM  

@44 "You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother." Noblesse oblige.

Explaining things to granny probably does helps you learn to bridge the gap (although she is probably ALSO above "normie").

However,"noblesse" does NOT make friends with, nor particularly socialize with, hoi polloi (to mix languages)... Noblesse oblige requires one to speak 'gently' to lesser beings, NOT to pretend they are not lesser beings! And, the speaking 'gently and understandably' is what this whole conversation seems to be about.




Blogger tublecane August 27, 2017 4:46 PM  

As I keep saying in this sort of thread, a big part of the problem is demotic manners. Everyone is taught "we're all the same," and the old divisions based on class and position are gone. Which isn't exactly true, because your doctor, for instance, is allowed to speak down to you, and you're allowed to speak down to children. You're also allowed to notice when there are significant "cultural" (national or ethnic/racial, really) differences. Which admittedly is a larger and larger factor in our civilization.

But for the most part, we're all on a plain. Any insistence on specialized communication not relating directly to officially-recognized professional knowledge and the like is thought to be an illegitimate assertion of superiority. (Or inferiority, which occasionally is incorrectly asserted.) Basically all assertions of superiority are suspect, including superior intelligence, even if you have numbers to back you up.

As pointed out in the Bell Curve, intelligence is the major determining factor of class in our society. (The Managerial Society.) But you're not allowed to notice that (hence there ridiculous media backlash against that book). Certainly you're not allowed to insist upon class prerogatives based on it.

Maybe you're allowed to demand higher pay for higher credentials, which has some connection to I.Q. (though not a direct one). But under no circumstances may you insist people talk to you a certain way because of your intelligence. In our culture, that's crazy talk. "Talk differently because of personal differences? What is this, Nazi Germany?" (Admittedly, Nazi Germany comes up a lot. "You pull your toilet paper overhand? What is this, Nazi Germany?")

Used to be we had social superiority and inferiority, and everyone accepted it. They evolved system of manners to deal with it. The superior were patronizing, and the inferior addressed them with terms like "guv'nor." It worked.

Smart people don't know how to patronize anymore. Lesser intelligences don't know how to be deferential. Neither are taught. Demotic manners mean the stupider have the advantage, because conversation conforms to the needs of the greater number. Unless the stupider happen to wander into a roomful of smarties, and are outvoted, as it were.

Such abominations as PC are made possible by demotic manners, too. Because PC managed through whatever means--long-marching through the institutions and controlling the MSM mostly--to get itself into politeness' default position. Or apparently so, because by and large contemporary culture rests on the Old Ways. Ways at which PC eats away, too slowly for it to be appreciated as such. But it looks from the outside as if it's authoritative.

Anyway, according to demotic manners, people can't disagree. Or they can over what kind of tv shows, candy bars, and rock bands they prefer, but not over things that matter. When you disagree, you're saying the other person is WRONG, and putting yourself above them. No one can be above anyone else, except for instance by way of pieces of paper issued by universities.

Therefore, people hold their tongues. Social conformity reigns. They fall back upon the default, which right now is PC.

Of course, social conformity wasn't invented for these times. It existed before, and in stricter terms. But in the Bad (according to PC) Old Days, this conformity was based on Authority. Now it's based on the pretense of "we're all the same," don't hurt anyone's feelings, do as though wilt, and a endless stream of impossible cliches.

All of which makes higher culture difficult, if not impossible. More intelligent people are naturally drawn toward higher culture. They have to make do, instead, with bastardizations like SJW culture, or special subcultures like sci-fi and gaming, as many here enjoy.

Blogger LP9 August 27, 2017 4:47 PM  

Loneliness is silly, its feeling alone when a person does not know themselves or cannot entertain themselves.

Blogger Dirk Manly August 27, 2017 4:47 PM  

@62

"In environments where the work is physically hard, and everyone that can,chips in a does their part, or even goes beyond the expected, a greater IQ range gets along."

I think that's why military people get along so well. I'm in the 145-150 IQ range... spent close to two decades in an infantry battalion. In that sort of situation, where universal physical labor is the rule, the smart guy is appreciated, because 15 minutes into a task, and seeing all the inefficiencies and hardships that don't need to be there, he figures out a way for EVERYONE to get the job done faster, and with less effort. Then everybody likes his intelligence rather than resenting him for it.

For example, when loading a truck, you want 2 people up on the truck... one guy with as much muscle as you can find, and one intelligent guy to make sure you can get everything on the truck, so that nothing is broken or crushed, and that the items of most immediate need are packed last. Three different competing requirements -- having the two strongest guys on the back of the truck results in damaged equipment and supplies, and having to half- or fully-unpack the truck to get to items of immediate need (eg. toilet paper) upon arrival.

Anonymous Avalanche August 27, 2017 4:49 PM  

@48 Would the high IQ individual become bored or frustrated to the point of leaving?

Smarter male, less-smart female; absolutely will work (as long as she isn't jealous or trying to overmatch him). Smarter female, less-smart male? Rarely. For most women to respect a man, he must (usually) be smarter and stronger; he must bring "resources"; not necessarily money (but money helps), but protection, a sense of honor, provision ... the woman who "provides the house they will live in" will generally struggle to NOT want to retain more control than is helpful to the relationship.

This is why so many high IQ / highly employed women never marry: she won't 'marry down' and the men above her would rather have a mate than a competitor!

Blogger Orville August 27, 2017 4:50 PM  

This blog is an oasis :-)

I learned early to keep my mouth shut, and have since noted that one of the "Laws of Power" and some of Mr. Throne's psychopathy ruminations include obfuscation.

Bonus tip: don't use words like rumination and obfuscation with most people.

Blogger Matthew August 27, 2017 5:01 PM  

Cail Corishev wrote:Also, paradoxically, I think very high-IQ people value it less than midwits do, because they better know the limits of it.

I appreciate it for what it does for me. I hate it for what it does to me.

Blogger Matthew August 27, 2017 5:04 PM  

LP9 wrote:Loneliness is silly, its feeling alone when a person does not know themselves or cannot entertain themselves.

I would add (for my part, not yours LP9): when a person refuses to commit to being with others on their terms.

Blogger Matthew August 27, 2017 5:06 PM  

Dirk Manly wrote:In that sort of situation, where universal physical labor is the rule, the smart guy is appreciated, because 15 minutes into a task, and seeing all the inefficiencies and hardships that don't need to be there, he figures out a way for EVERYONE to get the job done faster, and with less effort. Then everybody likes his intelligence rather than resenting him for it.

Most smart guys have never failed enough. Or failed hard enough. Humility turns out to be a virtue; who woulda thunk?

Blogger tublecane August 27, 2017 5:15 PM  

@148-"Bonus tip: don't use words like..."

I've noticed throughout life that people are especially sensitive on this topic. I'm not talking about bandying about big words for their own sake, or showing off that you know the definitions of words when they come up, or correcting people on their usage. All of which quite obviously can be off-putting. I learned early to hold my tongue on such things.

I'm talking simply about using words that sound funny to other people. Not necessarily big words or obscure words. Not even necessarily words they don't know. Just words that sound like you're "putting on airs."

It's evidence of an inferiority complex, which most people have. Granted, those who consciously use high-flown language may have a superiority complex. I find myself occasionally looking down on people for using common words and packaged or cliched expressions when they could find better words if they put in a little effort. Which I guess is the reverse of big-word sensitivity.

I've actually had people halt conversations and say something like "well, now, what does *that* mean," as if I was trying to offend them, or something. And I'm that case it was because I said the word "eyrie," I think.

Which may sound like I am habitually offensive in my word choice, and that was with family so maybe I am a bit freer with what I say. But you can watch what words you use, and still sound as of you "talk like a fag."

Blogger Azure Amaranthine August 27, 2017 5:23 PM  

@149. LP9, "Loneliness is silly, its feeling alone when a person does not know themselves or cannot entertain themselves."

I'm a "One major friendship at a time" kind of guy. I usually don't even have that.

I'll agree that loneliness and boredom are almost never an issue. The problem is that on the rare occasion when loneliness does become an issue, it strikes incomparably. One little slip, one moment of asking "where do I fit and what's for me?" in a down moment, and bam.

Yet another Christmas day suicide.

If you can cut off every attachment, you can avoid that. Just like you avoid absolutely everything else forever. Forever is a long time.

"It is not good for the Man to be alone."

Anonymous Stickwick August 27, 2017 5:32 PM  

Cail Corishev: …let's face it, they tend not to be overburdened with masculine physical qualities.

True. Though there was a man in the physics department who I’m pretty sure was Thor masquerading as a grad student. The dude was 6’2”, had long wavy blond hair, and was as magnificently built as Chris Hemsworth. He’d stride out of the physics building, take his shirt off, get on his Harley, and ride off into the wind, muscles rippling and hair streaming behind him.

Thor was a clear outlier, though. Sheldon and Leonard are far more typical of the men I've been around most of my life. Many of these men either struggle to function well in daily life or are just lazy and unambitious. That's not a barrier to friendship, but it is a big romantic turn-off.

Anonymous DMV August 27, 2017 5:39 PM  

VD wrote:And then they crucify you....

Moral of the story: Wisdom can only enlighten ignorance, never evil.

Regarding the general nature of left side of the IQ bell curve, I have observed that the lower IQs' inability to assess all the ramifications, complexities or subtleties of a situation makes them far less empathetic as they are completely unaware of the implications of damage, pain, hurt, danger, etc. In short, noble idiots do not exist.

Anonymous RedJack August 27, 2017 5:40 PM  

My niece is very intelligent, which runs in the family. While I don't know her IQ, she has said she tries to be "dumb" so she can have friends. She says it is mentally exhausting, and my sister is worried about her mental health (my sister also told her that no one likes smart girls, so she has a bit more baggage from that).

I remember as a kid being "weird", but I was fortunate to be raised in a place where it wasn't as socially harmful to be smart as many places. I may have been the only kid in fourth grade working on a perpetual motion machine (good times!), but I was also the only one who could make gun powder. I was viewed as "Jack the strange kid", but everyone in my small class accepted that while I was the favorite for Most Likely to be a Bond Villain four years running, I was THEIR Bond villain. Just returned from a wedding back home, and it was fun to slide back into that.

However, once I got out of college, I realized how fortunate I was as a kid. Living in a city of seven million and realizing that I didn't know ANY one I could talk about chemistry, physics, and ballistics with dang near ruined me.

My old redneck friends, while not always understanding what I was interested in, would sit back, crack a beer, and at least listen for a few minutes. Then I would do the same as they talked about engines and tractors.

But this is also why I appreciate places like Vox, Wright, and MHI. I can have odd and interesting conversations with people.

Anonymous AB August 27, 2017 5:40 PM  

I grew up +3 SD in a very poor, government housing area, where I'd guess the average intelligence was -1. Rough area, big criminal element, everyone looking for the magic shortcut to wealth.

What people are missing here is just how fundamentally-different levels of thought are at certain bars. It's not that a high IQ simply possess more of what the lower IQ people have, it's that the thought processes involved are - functionally - alien by comparison.

This means I spent a lot of my childhood trying to explain the predictable results of people’s actions to them, only to see them damn themselves anyway, because they were incapable of seeing how“If you do A, then B results”. They don’t have the horsepower to make that immediate leap – no matter how obvious it strikes the higher intelligence.

What I learnt was you had to breakdown A into a series of multiple steps that then lead to the multiple components that make up B, and, especially, it needs to be done in a way where you can’t make it apparent you’re leading them, or you’ll trigger immense resentment from them. It’s very important that they think the idea comes from within themselves, or they’ll take their frustration out on the Higher IQ speaker. This is where I’ll play dumb and sound worried and give them half the answer in a way that sounds like I’m struggling to understand, and let them ‘solve’ the puzzle.

Even so, I’ve also found that even with that knowledge, they’re just as likely to ignore it and damn themselves on a whim, due to another random factor that made logical sense to them at the time, but would instantly-strike me as illogical.

On a childhood level, it would be me being held down by two older boys and trying to explain to the third why it’s not a good idea to split my head open with a rock.

I spent my teen years getting very big, and worked very hard to move out of that area and get away from those people. Now I see society is being damned by the wilfully-ignorant Midwit class, who are just intelligent enough to embrace the mental excuses for seeing reality Subjectively, but not intelligent enough to see the obvious flaws in their arguments that the High IQ would instantly spot.

Note also that Midwits are not unintelligent enough to think ideas that embrace a subjective reality are ‘nuts’ and ‘crazy’, but are worth playing along with if a Lower IQ person identifies that there’s something in it for them. This is why BLM holds appeal, but Transsexual Bathrooms never will.

Combine it the religious nature of Social Justice – and let’s drop the mask and call it by its real name, since I find it amusing that Atheists now amass hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt to come out the other end of the cult indoctrination system as practising members of Reform Judaism, yet none dare name it as such, even its Zionist Opponents – and you will never be able to make the Midwit understand, because their entire self-construct is tied up in it.

I’ve noticed Midwits congregate with other Midwits, all believing themselves to be highly-intelligent. They don’t truly understand either Higher or Lower Intelligence. They think everyone is a rational actor and can be reasoned with, hence, ‘Refugees welcome’ and ‘Teach men not to rape’. They will hold onto this delusion even as their throats are slit, believing words of rationality will be salvation.

In reality, dumb people will kill you without any thought but the initial one that made rational sense to them at the time.

Blogger Phat Repat August 27, 2017 5:46 PM  

IQ -- Overrated.

Anonymous Avalanche August 27, 2017 5:54 PM  

@119 intelligent people have interests and preferences that people of normal or lower IQ simply cannot comprehend

I still struggle with this. My GOD, there is so much fascinating, interesting, engaging, amazing stuff EVERYwhere around us -- I (still) cannot imagine how people are just not interested in everything! (or even lots of things!)

How can they NOT find interesting, even if just in passing, that some French-Canadian 15-yr-old just located an unknown (massive) Maya city by matching up city locations to the constellations and filling in a "missing" star location in the Yucatan? How can they NOT find interesting that excavators just found a amazing fossil of a nodasaur? Aren't they the tiniest bit interested in the electric universe idea? What about the idea that possibly a comet slammed into the Laurentide ice sheet and killed off the North American megafauna (and the Clovis people) 12,900 years ago?

I'm not expecting them to make a study of these things -- but just to know they're going on?! Sure, maybe it's all trivia -- but the world is made up of trivia! Pick your bit(s) and become an expert?

Anonymous Avalanche August 27, 2017 6:02 PM  

@122 For better or worse, the sort of gaze I look for in a man communicates, "I could kill you and everyone else here, but I probably won't."

My husband used to say that man (not a male, a MAN) walks into a room and checks out all the men there: "are you a dog or a bitch? Can I take you or not?" He recognized -- and was recognized by -- the other men, and ignored the males. (Not even slightly in a swaggering way. The man who could 'kill anyone here,' is like the male lion lying in the shade panting. He doesn't HAVE to act scary or violent; he just IS. In tai chi, it's called i or ii; badly translated as: intent or mental ability.)

Blogger tuberman August 27, 2017 6:15 PM  

I think Women tend to trade upward, but upward may have nothing to do with IQ, it may be brawn, it may be money, etc.

Masculine or not traits have nothing to do with IQ, as high IQ is all over the map on that factor.

Anonymous kHz August 27, 2017 6:28 PM  

'The eyes really are the window to the soul.
The way I would describe it is a brightness, a spark, that most people's eyes are missing.'

Beware the sparkle of the eyes! For that way lie glimmers - the extra awareness granted by psychopathy, or malevolence, or the fracturing of a mind. Disappointing more often than not. Bright and 'weighted' eyes are rare round here.

Only thing that saved me during my teens/twenties was having a more intelligent best friend. Him having a more intelligent older brother was what saved my friend as well, I'm sure (though his brother was in a very bad way until he found a wife).

Discovering through that friendship that I was only 3/4 mad was the best thing that ever happened to me, besides perhaps being humbled. Severely. That did me a lot of good.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 27, 2017 6:30 PM  

I would disagree. I've never had problems talking with people of average or below average intelligence. It's the 105-125 folks that are the problem, and that mostly because they feel threatened. Any time they think you've displayed intelligence, they have to one-up you and try to demonstrate how smart they are.

Then again, I don't seek "meaningful" conversation. I don't talk to people so I can expand my understanding of the world. I've only met a few people who are capable of holding that conversation. It's a wonder and a joy, but I don't expect it. I talk to people to make connections. Character and loyalty are FAR more important than intelligence is forming friendships. I mean, can you imagine that Mr Rational would make a better friend than.. well, anybody really?

Anonymous kHz August 27, 2017 6:33 PM  

Should add that chemicals were our 'sport', so we were reclusive. And its the only sport we can discuss round here no matter the IQ.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera August 27, 2017 6:39 PM  

No. Genius is unique accomplishment. There are very, very, very few genuine geniuses.

Cause, effect. Take it from Linus Pauling if not from me.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera August 27, 2017 6:40 PM  

"The best way to have a good idea is to have a lot of ideas."

Blogger Cail Corishev August 27, 2017 6:43 PM  

What people are missing here is just how fundamentally-different levels of thought are at certain bars.

I've tried to explain this to people who think a 150 IQ means you learn maybe 1.5 times faster or know 1.5 times more. That's how they're able to convince themselves of things like: any kid can be the valedictorian if he works hard.

In reality, it means you skim through a school lesson, spend 15 minutes doing the exercises, and you've got it cold; while the average kid works at it all hour, does more exercises for homework, and has to have repetition over the next weeks to get it down -- and he will never "get it" as well as you did.

It's such a difference in speed that it seems like (and may be) a qualitative difference, a different method of thinking instead of just faster. For the person at the low end watching the high, it might as well be magic, like me watching a figure skater do one of those spinning jump things.

Blogger tuberman August 27, 2017 6:43 PM  

Avalanche wrote:@122 For better or worse, the sort of gaze I look for in a man communicates, "I could kill you and everyone else here, but I probably won't."

My husband used to say that man (not a male, a MAN) walks into a room and checks out all the men there: "are you a dog or a bitch? Can I take you or not?" He recognized -- and was recognized by -- the other men, and ignored the males. (Not even slightly in a swaggering way. The man who could 'kill anyone here,' is like the male lion lying in the shade panting. He doesn't HAVE to act scary or violent; he just IS. In tai chi, it's called i or ii; badly translated as: intent or mental ability.)


One too many Jack Reacher books. It works sort of like that, but not exactly. Most guys can be discounted, but then there are the few...?

These days I have to be humble is all I can say. My quickness and flexibility are gone, and too many injuries have added up. I'm still quite strong, for what ever good that would do for a slow use-to-was. Even my old training is stale.

Anonymous CrystalT August 27, 2017 6:49 PM  

Azure Amaranthine wrote:You're flat wrong.
Azure, I'm CrystalT, CrystalBlue's dog. You may have read about me in @44 and at @64. CrystalBlue had to mow the law and then take me for a walk. While we were walking we decided to finish this discussion without you. We concluded that your rebuttal in @110 didn't rise to the occasion. I managed to answer 3/4 of your post without having to pant. In any case, as you weren't invited, we concluded that this was the highest form of cooperation and awarded ourselves 10 internet points.

We thank you for your cooperation.

-- CrystalT, Phd, R.O.B.C, MBF.

Blogger Dirk Manly August 27, 2017 6:57 PM  

@92

Crystal Blue talking about what he says is an inherent contradiction of saying that cooperation relies on exclusion.

Have you ever tried to have some sort of activity, say, a business meeting, or a class in college, or even high school, on an advanced topic, and see the disruptive effect caused by an 85 IQ person in the room who doesn't want to cooperate?

You either exclude them from the activity so that the REST of you can cooperate, OR there is no cooperation at all.

There's a reason predominantly black schools are not merely dysfunctional but counter-functional -- because they REFUSE to exclude t he disruptive 55 IQ "students" who literally have nothing better to do with their time but to be disruptive, make fun of everybody and everything happening in the room, and physically destroying everything tangible and intangible in the room.

Anonymous Bird on a Wing August 27, 2017 6:59 PM  

Okay, I pulled the trigger on the email.

Anonymous Just Call Me Fishmail August 27, 2017 7:04 PM  

The really crappy part of this is that the >= SD +3.0 chicks are so used to seeing themselves at the upper end of things that they make life miserable for the >= SD +5.0 guys who are incredibly rare but who may wind up drifting into their orbits ...

Rather than accept the concept that this wasn't going to be a battle and they weren't going to win this one anyway, these chicks press onward with competitive, bitchy attitude.

This is where these chicks go wrong: really smart guys don't want a crappy competitor or a back-stabbing co-worker, they want a useful "help-meet", and they will give up a lot of things ceteris paribus in order to get what they want.

BTW, Avalanche @159 -- There are two kinds of people in America after this week: those who watched the eclipse, and those who didn't. The people who showed up for the eclipse, especially the total eclipse, are much more interesting.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash August 27, 2017 7:17 PM  

Azure Amaranthine wrote:What I'm saying is, a smart person gets his feels (other than the very most basic ones) from sources others are often not even aware exist. He cares about different things. His world revolves around different things. The sum total of his experience is shifted, possibly to such an extent that it does not often overlap with a less-smart person's.


Translation: "I'm super smrt and super special"

Guess what, Buttercup. You're neither.

You talk to people where they are. That's reality. Are you telling me you're not interested in where your next meal is coming from? Whether your mate is faithful? I guarantee you are. You just ignore these interests because they don't give that "I'm so special smart" feeling you're addicted to.

You have literally thousands of interests in common with any human you meet. You just have your nose to far in the air to look them in the eye and address them honestly.

"Pander to my self-concept or we're done here."

Anonymous BBGKB August 27, 2017 7:19 PM  

So, while I certainly experienced my share of exclusion and ousting, I can't honestly say I ever experienced much in the way of loneliness.

If you are a sigma you can go to a separate movie from who you are dating and they will follow you into yours so they are not alone. I have always known it was better to be alone than in a bad relationship.

If there were a pill to make me a 100-IQ normie, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

My grandfather told me not to play football in high school because once you take enough blows to the head you will become "punch drunk", so there is a solution.

Though learning a few parlor tricks isn't a bad idea either.

Watch carefully as I make this mad moslem disappear.

Stickwick wrote:(It doesn't help that I live in Berkeley-in-Texas with

I wouldn't even live in Austin and I have exes there.

As others have said, hard physical labor has a nice way of "vanishing" any IQ gaps, because they don't come up in the first place

Tell that to the company who put up my parents new fence that came within 2 feet of the power meter but never contacted the utilities until after they cut the power line.

If this is true, then any white person with an IQ of 115 or above, and that is over 15% of the white population (assuming mean IQ = 100, std dev = 15), cannot communicate with at least 50% of the black population (assuming mean IQ = 85, std dev = 15).

Providing healthcare to black adults is like providing healthcare to children, but without anyone responsible to give written instructions to.

101If there are 33 million black adults in the US

Blacks bell curve is different from whites also male/female bell curves are different. 15% of blacks have an IQ of 100 or higher, with Whites its 50%. So if your 33 mill is correct 4,950,000 have an IQ of 100 or higher. Here is black vs white bell curve https://gab.ai/BGKB/posts/11290556

Blogger S1AL August 27, 2017 7:28 PM  

"I mean, can you imagine that Mr Rational would make a better friend than.. well, anybody really?"

Now, now, there's no need to get personal. I'm sure he has entirely valid reasons for assuming he's the only person here capable of reading and understanding scientific papers.

"In reality, it means you skim through a school lesson, spend 15 minutes doing the exercises, and you've got it cold; while the average kid works at it all hour, does more exercises for homework, and has to have repetition over the next weeks to get it down -- and he will never "get it" as well as you did."

It gets kinda weird when you're talking smaller gaps. A lot of it seems to boil down to the difference between those who can understand by examination and those who need an explanation. I've been on both sides of that.

Blogger Rough Carrigan August 27, 2017 7:53 PM  

I think it's very helpful to do some kind of blue collar-ish work with people of average IQ to get over useless feelings of arrogance toward them. If you're very high IQ you realize how useless school is but at least it's sort of flattering to you. Average IQ people might realize how useless school is and it's denigrating them. I've found that encountering average IQ people in a work setting can be a bit of an eye opener as you realize that outside of the false context of school that they might find fairly clever ways to do things and don't seem as hopeless as in school. You also get a little appreciation that wisdom and intelligence are not the same thing. I remember a job working on the Massachusetts Turnpike where there was this older guy who ran the garage who was probably just average intelligence but he had everything about his life set up in such a cool . . wise way that everyone had great respect for this guy. If someone of very high IQ stays in school, university, white collar job environments he's really never seeing the best version of that average IQ guy and it exacerbates the pointless arrogance in some. Hey, you still won't have an interesting conversation with them about something conceptually complex and meaningful to you but it helps with getting rid of the arrogance that does nothing. Though, I agree with earlier posters that it's more the midwits who feel compelled to behave arrogantly to establish their difference from the average at every turn.

Anonymous BBGKB August 27, 2017 7:54 PM  

Sitwick I'd love to be closer to M and H, but the catastrophic wildfires and floods are a bit much.

Insulated concrete forms construction, metal roof, earth sheltered construction will go a long way to protecting you. You could find yourself the only one still with a functioning house for miles after a fire. Insulated concrete form construction has an extremely high insulation value to boot.

Asians are also less altruistic, so the fruits of the mind weren't spread around generously

There is a history Ghangis Khan commissioned into stone in western china that talks about altruistic people he meet. Guess what happened to them?

Blogger Dirk Manly August 27, 2017 8:00 PM  

@125

"Women can, maybe, but they'll treat low IQ company like children."

The probably with moderately high IQ women is that they treat EVERYONE like children.

Blogger Dirk Manly August 27, 2017 8:01 PM  

"Asians are also less altruistic, so the fruits of the mind weren't spread around generously. Industrial England was kind to its inventive eccentrics."

...Because England's inventive eccentrics were, in genral, much more altruistic with their inventions than, say, China's inventive eccentrics.

Blogger Stilicho August 27, 2017 8:36 PM  

It's much easier to have a conversation with someone over 130 or someone between 90 and 110 than it is with the 110 to 130 range most of the time. Most subjects aren't that complicated and the upper range know it, the lower range don't care, while the middle range don't know, but care very deeply and will spend hours demonstrating both points.

Blogger Matthew August 27, 2017 8:38 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:Translation: "I'm super smrt and super special"

Guess what, Buttercup. You're neither.


Nailed.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd August 27, 2017 8:38 PM  

BBGKB wrote:Insulated concrete forms construction, metal roof, earth sheltered construction will go a long way to protecting you. You could find yourself the only one still with a functioning house for miles after a fire. Insulated concrete form construction has an extremely high insulation value to boot.

I built a 2,400 square foot, partially earth sheltered house at 64 degrees north. One gallon of oil per day to heat through the winter. I had to add 6 inches of foam to the outside to achieve that. The foam ( both ICF and extra) is moderately flammable.

ICFs are a great way to build, but not a panacea.

Anonymous Adma August 27, 2017 8:48 PM  

My autistic brother always sprints between houses. Your comment also reminds me of a weirdo at college who skipped everywhere. He got around most efficiently but at the cost of his dignity. Maybe he was a genius? Lol

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable August 27, 2017 9:03 PM  

Cail Corishev wrote:So the problem is communicating down. But smart people should be able to do this.

It's harder than you'd think. Recently I was talking to a relative who's 3-4 SD below me. I had a topic ready, something I'd done that week that was right in his wheelhouse. I told him about it, and....nothing. I thought it would spark a conversation about what he does, and he just shrugged. Now, it's possible he had something else on his mind or was having a bad day, I don't know. But the point is, yes, you can try to figure out how to communicate, but it's a little like using a foreign language. It's awkward and doesn't always come out right.


I have four responses to this.

One: kinda yes, if you're that good at cognition, then you should be able to figure out meta-cognition, ideally to an arbitrary number of levels of meta.

Two: if you're only happy as long as you're learning, and your mind is like a pitbull that won't let go of problems, and your bro isn't like that, then you're gonna have different interests -- even for the same topic.

Three: team sports are awesome for seein' everyone as complements. I feel sorry for those who lacked.

Four: I do my best to make myself comprehensible because communication is the point, but I use word size as a proxy for availability and it often fails, because I know too many obscure small words. #humblebrag

Anonymous Unamused Flyover Resident August 27, 2017 9:24 PM  

Bottom line, as a +3 SD woman whose average-to-midwit - but high EQ and artsy/creative - husband of 25 years skated out for a younger, also married, New Age floozy who told him he was a "creative genius" and "the complete package," I'm totally screwed, right?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

I will add the observation that blue-collar guys, or guys from a blue-collar background, are much less ... concerned by hanging out with a woman who might possibly be smarter than they are. Probably because they don't hinge their masculine identity on their intelligence. It's the cube dwellers who have problems.

Blogger tuberman August 27, 2017 9:30 PM  

Dirk Manly wrote:"Asians are also less altruistic, so the fruits of the mind weren't spread around generously. Industrial England was kind to its inventive eccentrics."

...Because England's inventive eccentrics were, in genral, much more altruistic with their inventions than, say, China's inventive eccentrics.


This goes back to low trust society vs. high trust society. High Trust = more open, and less secretive, so inventions do get shared, under the right conditions. Chinese are "inscrutable," as they are low trust and secretive.

Yet, Pathological Altruism is the disease of the West currently, when you think all the world's population can be treated with the same openness, which should be reserved for one's own people.

Anonymous Unamused Flyover Resident August 27, 2017 9:37 PM  

@118 Zaklog,

From what you describe you, like Gavin McInnis (and I,) you don't have political beliefs per se, you have opinions, which you are willing to change as the evidence warrants.

Anonymous CoolHand August 27, 2017 9:42 PM  

Casey wrote:When you communicate down you're labeled a patronizing azzhole,...usually verbalized as "I'll whup your ass!"

But I realize that few of you spent your life in a blue collar environment. So you can't possibly know that aspect of the topic.


I grew up and still live in a dirt poor part of MO that is nothing but blue collar and poor white folks.

My IQ is ~135, and I learned that I was an oddball my second year in middleschool via merciless torture and bullying.

Thankfully it occurred to me early on in that hellish year that it was something that I was doing that caused these people to fixate on me, and so I spent most of the rest of that year and the next on figuring out some way to stop the abuse.

What I finally found was that if (in public) I talked like everyone else and acted more or less like everyone else, and stood my ground and fought back when someone tested me, they'd pretty much leave me be.

Over time this "act" has gotten much easier to maintain when I am among people who are unknown to me and/or aren't as smart as I am, and I find that generally I get along with people OK, at least in short doses.

Long intimate parties are mentally draining, so I avoid them whenever possible. Dating is also more difficult because I cannot in good conscience hide my real personality from a prospective mate (talk about your ultimate bait-n-switch), and I have found that few women can wrap their heads around the idea of acting dumber than you are to ease social interaction. On the occasions that I find a woman who can understand the why and the how of it though, I have no problem making a solid connection and have had several multi-year relationships (though no marriage, yet).

It helps a great deal that I am just BARELY on the cusp of the gap and not well into the middle of it, and that I naturally have an accent that most people stereotypically associate with stupidity (the oldest redneck joke is that speaking like we do automatically deducts 10 IQ points).

I also grew up in construction, literally immersed in the roughest blue collar sorts you could imagine, so I had a good frame of reference from which to pull my affectation material.

Lastly (and probably most importantly), because I grew up amongst blue collar sorts, I LIKE them. I like being around them and especially working with them when something really needs to get done.

When I worked construction as a kid I loved seeing things getting done, and my crews always liked having someone around that could figure a way out of any crap-up we managed to stumble onto/into. There's no faster way to befriend a man than to save him from an ass chewing by the foreman.

I think that's probably why I get along with people as well as I do. I genuinely like the culture around here and I don't look down my nose at folks who may not be as high horsepower in the brain pan, because I've seen guys who anyone would say are "dull" do amazing things with steel or wood or some musical instrument or just their own voice, and I defy anyone to come and "out wisdom" an old farmer when it comes to living life the right way.

The gap does exist, but as others above have said (probably better than I did), the key to surviving and thriving in spite of it is to realize you're different at an early age and do your best to fit in without becoming resentful or truly dumber (IE dumb down your speech in public, don't stop using your mind).

That's my take on it anyway. As always, I could be totally FOS.

Blogger rumpole5 August 27, 2017 10:05 PM  

What about the IQ sorting that occurs as one progresses in life?
Once I turned 16 I was very unlikly to physically be around a peer with a sub average IQ. Most dropped out of public school and went to work. The lower end of the normals disapeared after high school, and the lower end of the brights after college. By law school I found MYSELF in the lower half of the group. My son, who is just finishing up medical school has had to face a similar challenge. He went from being honors level biology major in a relatively good university (Baylor) to being really, really, academically challenged among his even higher IQ cohorts in medical school.

My point is that our society tends to draw particular IQ levels out of the general population and then concentrate a particular level into educational, employment, and residential neborhood ghettos of persons with similar IQ scores. Robert Murray discused this in his book "Coming Apart".

Blogger tuberman August 27, 2017 10:09 PM  

Cail Corishev wrote:What people are missing here is just how fundamentally-different levels of thought are at certain bars.

I've tried to explain this to people who think a 150 IQ means you learn maybe 1.5 times faster or know 1.5 times more. That's how they're able to convince themselves of things like: any kid can be the valedictorian if he works hard.

In reality, it means you skim through a school lesson, spend 15 minutes doing the exercises, and you've got it cold; while the average kid works at it all hour, does more exercises for homework, and has to have repetition over the next weeks to get it down -- and he will never "get it" as well as you did.

It's such a difference in speed that it seems like (and may be) a qualitative difference, a different method of thinking instead of just faster. For the person at the low end watching the high, it might as well be magic, like me watching a figure skater do one of those spinning jump things.


There are mentoring tricks and levels beyond levels to all of this. If you can catch a fairly smart kid at age 7-9 years old and mentor him to do speedy math in his head, his neuronal speed will increase a lot, but he will still be one level below a true prodigy. He will learn math and other subjects incredibly fast, and he might even become a genius of sorts, but that depends on other factors. Neuron speed is only one factor among several that determine full intelligence.

Motivation is a factor that is under reported, and mentoring kids with heroic stories can set a fire under them for advancing. Experience is obviously important too, and not all grinders become low midwits, some get quite creative. Reflective intelligence, or thinking about thinking is wise also. Creativity gets much harder than just high IQ.

Anonymous Brick Hardslab August 27, 2017 10:18 PM  

The gap made my brother's life hell. He was the smartest kid at the time the university had studied.

In high school he turned to drugs and alcohol due to loneliness and depression. It took over a decade to dig himself out.

He's been gone for five years now and I miss him every day.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 27, 2017 10:35 PM  

Adma wrote:My autistic brother always sprints between houses. Your comment also reminds me of a weirdo at college who skipped everywhere. He got around most efficiently but at the cost of his dignity. Maybe he was a genius? Lol

Probably not because higher IQ produces normalness, even in spergs. Something something adaptivity, so lack of adaptivity shows lack of IQ. That said, almost all geniuses have been aspergoid (in the region of 95 percent or better), so there's something about the condition that predisposes us to extreme overperformance in trait creativity.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 27, 2017 10:41 PM  

Brick Hardslab wrote:The gap made my brother's life hell. He was the smartest kid at the time the university had studied.

In high school he turned to drugs and alcohol due to loneliness and depression. It took over a decade to dig himself out.

He's been gone for five years now and I miss him every day.


Yikes dude. Sadly, such extreme burnouts are very common in that echelon. See for instance: Ettore Majorana, Kim Ung-Yong, Adragon De Mello, Niels Abel, and William Sidis. It wasn't always this way, such burnouts appear to have been less common before 1900, before the rapid drop-off in eminence since 1850 reported by Charles Murray in Human Accomplishment.

Blogger Aeoli Pera August 27, 2017 10:42 PM  

@192, forgot the link for high IQ and normalcy.

Anonymous Jack August 27, 2017 11:04 PM  

"If there were a pill to make me a 100-IQ normie, I'd take it in a heartbeat."

There was an episode of House M.D. in which a genius-level physicist drinks Robitussin all day long so that he can relate to his normie wife.

House was a great show, and all about the alienation of a VHIQ individual, who occasionally got to be the voice of HBD on tv. I remember another episode where there was a panic on an airplane over the possibility of a contagious disease, and House realized that the women were becoming hysterical. He says, "Sorry, science says that you're weak and soft. What can I do?"

Blogger Wynn Lloyd August 27, 2017 11:10 PM  

Thanks for posting this. I identify with it for sure.
I was a child prodigy in music and it helped a lot growing up. The formal, recital crowd he really prevented me from feeling too abnormal, while I learned enough bluegrass and country from my grandparents that I could very easily interact with healthy people based on that.
I believe that having a super-high IQ is a curse. Very little is good about it. When I was a small child and took my first IQ test, I was put in a gifted program. One of the other kids there was thought to be mentally-retarded before he took the IQ test.
People with high IQs have more understand of the reality of things. Or at least it seems so to me. If a terrorist attack sends nails into the heads of children in another country it doesn't remain abstract. My mind ends up dwelling and even feeling the loss by putting my own children in that scenario. It seems like leftists in general can't do this, and while normal right-wingers definitely do this, for me it is crippling.
Of course, I had a hyper-abusive, malignant narcissist father who despised us and attempted to take all the praise I received and turn it into something to be ashamed of. "I spoke with him after the recital, and he had the cutest, very thick, southern accent." You'd think this would seem like a charming anecdote, but my father used that to keep me from speaking due to his constant condemnation and mockery, desire the fact that he had the same thick accent. You'd think he'd be happy his son was being paid to fly to Chicago and perform, but it only triggered his hatred of me. Eventually I just stopped talking around him.
He attempted to make us feel guilty about everything we did or said. He demanded massive sympathy from us, no matter what we were going through. So I learned how to feel other peoples' pain to the point now that I can't sleep for days after something horrible has happened. These black on white murderers, especially the ones in South Africa, immobilize me completely.
Sorry to ramble. It's very cathartic to say this and to read this post. I'll try not to be a self-indulgent gamma in the comments, because I do that all the time.

Blogger Wynn Lloyd August 27, 2017 11:11 PM  

Sorry for the typos. I'm exhausted from yet more sleeplessness and nodding off while I write.

Blogger Matthew August 27, 2017 11:33 PM  

You'll be embarrassed tomorrow, but it doesn't matter. Keep trucking.

Blogger tublecane August 27, 2017 11:46 PM  

@125-I've thought about this before, how much female condescension is shaped by their natural childrearing instincts. It may have something to do with why they have such trouble with "man-splaining."

I have no problem with people explaining things I already know. To women, all such instruction is talking down, and maybe to them all talking down is like an adult talking down to a child.

Anonymous Icicle August 28, 2017 1:19 AM  

Niels Abel,

That one does not fit. He died prematurely of tuberculosis.

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