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Saturday, September 09, 2017

As promised

Utsav Sanduja@u
If only it were a phone call or two...or an e-mail or a two.

My friend, you have no idea what you're talking about.

You just don't.


Vox Day@voxday
He doesn't, but he will. I will post all of our recent emails back and forth on my blog tomorrow.
My objective was not to embarass anyone, nor is the content of the emails even remotely embarrassing to anyone, but merely to demonstrate that Utsav was lying and attempting to create a false narrative about my behavior. It really was just a phone call or two and an email or four, as you will see.

9/6/2017 21:36: Andrew emails me and asks me to talk to Utsav. He provides me with the number.
9/6/2017 21:58: Utsav emails me to request a call.
9/7/2017 08:44: I email Utsav to tell him that I rang but he did not pick up.
9/7/2017 08:54: Utsav emails me to tell me to call him in 15 minutes.
9/7/2017 10:09: I call Utsav. We talk for 16 minutes and 31 seconds. It's a good, positive call.
9/7/2017 10:47: I email Utsav to thank him for taking the time to deal with this.
9/7/2017 11:07: Utsav emails me to direct my attention to this statement by Andrew.
9/7/2017 11:49: I email Utsav to ask what the policy on prospective libel and defamation will be.
9/7/2017 13:07: Utsav emails me to tell me it's being reviewed.
9/7/2017 20:38: I email Utsav with my suggestions for how Gab could handle defamation complaints.

And that's it. That's the crazy, desperate narrative at which Utsav was darkly hinting. Most of the emails were little more than sentence or two. And if you would like to know what my suggestions were, they were not particularly ambitious or draconian.
  1. Clearly state that libel and defamation are not free speech in the guidelines.
  2. Establish a Legal Review Board to which libel-related complaints sent to support can be reviewed. 
  3. If the Legal Review Board concludes that a post about which a complaint has been submitted is probable libel per current US legal standards, the account is given one strike, and the account holder is informed that his user details will be divulged to the target upon request by that user.
  4. Three strikes and the account is deleted and the account holder permanently banned. Each libelous post is counted separately, but multiple libels in a single post would only be counted once.
I felt this process would minimize legal disruptions to Gab, protect the Gab community from libel and defamation, provide any member of the community subjected to genuine libel a means of seeking legal redress without having to pay for the privilege of finding out who their attacker is, and remove any incentive for troublemakers to engage in libelous or defamatory behavior.

I'm not concerned about myself. As Supreme Dark Lord, I have the benefit of the Legal Legion of Evil, which I can assure Andrew Torba, despite his doubts, does exist. The various defamations that are presently published on Gab will be removed, one way or another. But there are others who are already coming forward who simply do not have such easy acccess the legal process that is presently required of them.

I felt that establishing a Legal Review Board would be a reasonable way of dealing with the obvious problem. Of course, I also feel that it is right to remove libelous and defamatory posts, even without waiting for a request from the target of the defamation. I do it here almost every day, usually without a request, because failing to do so renders the comments a wasteland of trolls, spammers, and people who derive some sense of spiritual satisfaction from rolling in filth.

Obviously, the management of Gab feels differently. Which is their right, but is also why the site will increasingly become a wasteland of trolls, slanderers, and people who derive some sense of spiritual satisfaction from rolling in filth. Since Gab did not take a reasonable stance at the start, their problem is only going to metastasize. I'm not surprised by any of this, in fact, I warned him in November that if he did not come up with a reasonable moderation policy, the site would eventually spin out of his control.

If people cannot get redress from Gab, they will seek it elsewhere. Andrew and Utsav really have no right to complain about how people do so when they are giving them no other choice. And yet, they are.
JeremiahEmbs · @JeremiahEmbs
So what's the excuse for @FashDaddey calling me a child rapist?Is @a @u @support going to address this?Or are they going to pretend defamation is the same thing as free speech&make this site completely unusable for good people such as myself who will abandon this platform since it is not moderated.

 JeremiahEmbs · @JeremiahEmbs
@a @u @support What are you going to do Torba? Asia Registry is being informed you are no longer immune under section 230 of the Communications Decency Act as the site appears to be designed for defamation as there is no recourse for those abused by it.

Andrew Torba@a
If our registrar requires us to remove something again we will publish it here and let everyone know that you whined to them because someone hurt your feelings with mean words on the internet.
As I said in last night's Darkstream, Andrew Torba is simply not ready for prime time. I have advised him for nearly a year, I think he is a talented young man, and I genuinely like him, but he has repeatedly demonstrated that he is still too emotionally fragile for any high-stress position that brings him into contact with the public. And furthermore, I would immediately fire any customer support representative who ever responded to one of my customers that way.

Labels: ,

233 Comments:

1 – 200 of 233 Newer› Newest»
Anonymous dr kill September 09, 2017 6:44 AM  

This crap is really unproductive. Why not just see who has the biggest dick?

Blogger Lemur September 09, 2017 6:50 AM  

Vox, the reason why they're starting to play ball is because I took it upon myself, as one of your loyal minions, to threaten them with the spectre of the SUPREME DARK LORD. Now, God forbid I essay to eclipse your fearful form, but I believe in credit where credit is due.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAsJnX53Xsg&t=0s


Blogger modsquad September 09, 2017 6:52 AM  

How can he slap?

Anonymous Charlottesvillain September 09, 2017 6:58 AM  

"the account holder is informed that his user details will be divulged to the target upon request by that user"

Ehh.

Blogger SouthRon September 09, 2017 6:59 AM  

This whole thing with the Anglins, Gab, the troll influx, and the timing of today's "debate" stinks of an op. I'm betting Anglin is either a fed or or an asset of theirs. Not like that hasn't occurred to Vox or half the Ilk. Next Moot should be interesting.

Blogger Lemur September 09, 2017 7:02 AM  

@SouthRon

where and when is this debate going to take place? Can't wait to see Anglin get utterly trounced by our legendary leader!

Blogger VD September 09, 2017 7:06 AM  

Ehh.

If they don't do that, when they have been legally advised that the post is likely to be deemed defamatory by a court, they half-defeat the point of having those legal advisors in the first place. It would be good to remove the posts, of course, but fails to provide an easy path to redress.

Blogger AdognamedOp September 09, 2017 7:11 AM  

OMG who cares about this he said, she said stuff, there are hurricanes happening right now people. Hello? We're gonna run out of alphabet numbers pretty soon.

Blogger Doc Rampage September 09, 2017 7:17 AM  

I invested in GAB and I'm now starting to regret it. Not only is Torba talking like a teenager, he's reposting posts from neotards. One even uses the name "Hitlerwasright" or something like that. How can he not know that a CEO can't have things like that in his timeline?

Anonymous Looking Glass September 09, 2017 7:22 AM  

I posted, deep, in the other thread that there's a specific problem around any sexual assault accusations. They are de jure Injurious Speech by *statement* alone. That's down to the current legal environments.

There's generalized Libel that Gab would have no real way to sort out, but the sexual assault statements at a "real name" are automatically libelous unless it's clear the person was proven guilty of the crime. "Bill Clinton is a rapist! Infowars .com" wouldn't be, generally speaking.

As Gab's TOS currently stands, it's a design flaw. Nothing more. Giving up PII is a separate issue. Add a new report category in the Report Feature and remove give warnings to remove or prove. If they want to do the standard 24 hours, that'll work.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 09, 2017 7:25 AM  

Oh, and the "you're a rapist" statement would be Criminal Defamation in the 6 or so US States that still have that on the books. So, that part isn't a joke.

Blogger Quilp September 09, 2017 7:27 AM  

Giving cover to a group of lowlife larping Nazis swarming, libeling, while imagining oneself the white knight of free speech is exactly where I always imagined libertarian ideology to end in the Western world, not Somalia. Muh principles, dude.

Shielding accusers from facing those they slander isn't some great service to freedom. In fact, at least in my understanding, it would seem to violate our basic Western Tradition of the accused having an absolute right of facing, in court, those who make allegations.

Blogger Lemur September 09, 2017 7:35 AM  

Andrew TorbaPRO · @a
6 minutes
Vox you omitted the 6 emails you sent me personally within ~24 hours and multiple calls to my phone (unanswered) in this blog post because it doesn't fit your narrative.

The point Utsav was making is that we were incredibly busy yet you continued to contact us repeatedly. That's it.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 09, 2017 7:35 AM  

@12 Quilp

It's also not political speech. Much for the same reason that advocating violence or crimes also gets you banned. There's a class of Libelous speech by it's sheer existence is a damage to the target long before any redress can occur.

That's all that needs to be eliminated. There's lots of nasty things from historical pictures that are far worse than the insults thrown around, but there's a specific class of Libelous speech that requires removal before someone tests the Section 230 protections.

Anonymous TheRedPrince September 09, 2017 7:37 AM  

Not sure whose side to take on this one. I think you're well intentioned VD but optically it looks like youre tyring to crack down on Gab / free speech. I understand your point that libel / etc. is not "free speech", but libel is extremely hard to win in court especially as public figures. In addition, the following proposal (even if well intentioned) makes people squirm:

>"the account holder is informed that his user details will be divulged to the target upon request by that user."

I was hoping the debate tomorrow would be a slam dunk, since Anglin is not a nationalist, but I hope these events don't throw things off track and Anglin somehow positions himself as pro-free-speech and you as anti-free-speech.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 09, 2017 7:42 AM  

Thinking through the flaw in Gab's TOS, since it's a bug & abusable, we could probably break Torba & Utsav with it. I'd hate to do it, but there's a pretty straight forward way to do it.

Blogger Unknown September 09, 2017 7:43 AM  

If someone calls you a goof you call him a goof right back...
Fucking Christ, don't be a bitch.

Blogger Salt September 09, 2017 7:45 AM  

I'm guessing @a&@u don't recognize porn when they see it either.

Blogger Markku September 09, 2017 7:45 AM  

Andrew TorbaPRO · @a
6 minutes
Vox you omitted the 6 emails you sent me personally within ~24 hours


He didn't "omit" them. He acknowledged them, and summarized their length and content.
---
Quote:
"Most of the emails were little more than sentence or two. And if you would like to know what my suggestions were, they were not particularly ambitious or draconian.
1. Clearly state that libel and defamation are not free speech in the guidelines (...)"

Anonymous Looking Glass September 09, 2017 7:46 AM  

@15 TheRedPrince

Vox is attempting to redress Libel against him (in a drawn out court case, Vox has a better than even chance of winning; Spacebunny's case is a slam dunk), but we've also run into a "Game Breaking Bug" in Gab's TOS.

It can be addressed when the situation deescalates, but it was a bad week to find it. Torba needs some sleep, as he seems to have been posting a lot more lately at more "candle burning" hours.

Blogger Salt September 09, 2017 7:47 AM  

TheRedPrince wrote:it looks like youre tyring to crack down on Gab / free speech.

Not free speech. Libelous (slanderous) speech. They are not the same.

Anonymous Post Alley Crackpot September 09, 2017 7:50 AM  

VD: This crap going on isn't just defamatory, it's criminal libel under the Anguilla statutes where Gab's domain is registered.

It's not a civil tort at all. It's a criminal offence.

Torba's whinging about the registrar requiring him to do anything isn't going to help. The Anguilla registar can simply shut down the .AI domain for a terms of service violation.

In fact, I'm not exactly sure what they're waiting for based on that comment of his ...

Blogger Cail Corishev September 09, 2017 7:50 AM  

No registrar wants to be in charge of deciding the legal status of Internet posts, any more than anyone else does. Not for the $80/year they get for a .AI domain. They may handle a few complaints by the book, but before long they'll just say it's not worth it. That's why his position of "Free speech unless we're blackmailed" was doomed as soon as SJWs/Retards realized what it meant.

Anonymous Robert Aske September 09, 2017 7:51 AM  

Accusing someone of being a child rapist is just mean words on the internet? What planet is Torba living on?

Anonymous Looking Glass September 09, 2017 7:52 AM  

One interesting result from all of this is a tactical suggestion:

Always frame it as "Are you a pedophile?". Asking questions not making accusations of pedophilia is an important distinction. The classic "did you stop beating your wife?" approach. Nasty, but steers clear of a lot of problems.

Blogger wreckage September 09, 2017 7:55 AM  

@17 and if they call you a child rapist you sue them.

Anonymous The Walkin' Dude September 09, 2017 7:56 AM  

This shit show has become pretty entertaining!

Anonymous Post Alley Crackpot September 09, 2017 7:56 AM  

Cail: "No registrar wants to be in charge of deciding the legal status of Internet posts ..."

Ah, now I know what they're waiting for: adjudication.

The registrar doesn't want to have to make the decision on its own.

Blogger Salt September 09, 2017 7:56 AM  

Post Alley Crackpot wrote:In fact, I'm not exactly sure what they're waiting for based on that comment of his ...

If the .ai registrar is actually in Anguilla I doubt this is any priority right now. Anguilla doesn't exactly exist at the moment, courtesy of Irma.

Blogger Lovekraft September 09, 2017 7:56 AM  

This will all 'come out in the wash' one way or another. Either people will recognize the Vox-bashing as ubergay, or they will press on and drive out the deep thinkers.

What amazes me is how, since the Trumpening, the altright hasn't been allowed to further develop a sound, consistent ideology.

You have the Sargons, the Anglin-ites etc throwing up interference, attacking the wrong enemy.

As for this writer, what my number one goal is is to create the conditions whereby attacking a white Christian (or the young and underserving) will be met with swift response, or neutralized from doing it.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 09, 2017 8:00 AM  

@23 Cail Corishev

I've interacted enough with @a, @e & @u that I know where the design is headed. So I know why he's focused on a fairly expansionist approach. And it can work just fine, but there's a middle area of Speech that is damaging by nature but isn't *always* Libelous.

If someone on there has actually been convicted of a rape charge, calling them a "rapist" is legally protected. But in all other cases, it's an injurious statement. Even nasty "hate speech" insults are legally protected speech. However, there's that special class of insults that are de jure Libelous and should face automatic removal when reported.

Blogger SirGroggy September 09, 2017 8:01 AM  

Vox is right or at least has a point of view worth considering by Gab.

If they were sensible and professional they would pay attention and stop trying to make it personal. At worst they should decline Vox's input and state their disagreement.

It seems to be Torba who has been perceiving hostilities and is becoming pugilistic because he is in an angry state.

As Jesse Lee Peterson says: "Angry people are crazy people."


Andrew Torba · @a
9 hours
"Andrew Torba is clearly not ready for primetime."

>Meanwhile I'm featured on Fox News at primetime and no one knows your name


This kind of trash-talking would be more suited to a reality TV star, not a tech CEO.

Next he will challenge Vox to a rap battle.

Anonymous Rocklea September 09, 2017 8:02 AM  

"Western Tradition of the accused having an absolute right of facing, in court, those who make allegations."

And Roman and Christian tradition. And in the sixth and fourteenth amendments. The first amendment is not carte blanche to say anything you want.

"In addition, the following proposal (even if well intentioned) makes people squirm:

>"the account holder is informed that his user details will be divulged to the target upon request by that user.""

People don't want to be accountable for what they write, would they say what they have written to the person's face?

We are coming to a time when, in the not too distant future, the internet will be segregated and regulated. You will most likely not be allowed anonymity.

Anonymous Post Alley Crackpot September 09, 2017 8:03 AM  

Salt: And that's exactly why there will be a delay ...

But notice closely: Torba says the registrar has been pushing back again.

It's not a matter of Gab coming onto the radar during the hurricane.

They're already on it.

Blogger JC September 09, 2017 8:04 AM  

I know you have good reasons but this still strikes me as something that isn't worth the price for either you or Torba. And this is assuming the worst that happens for you is having to find someoone else to do the forward for SJWs Always Double Down.

I'm kind of hoping this turns out the way that subplot between Sansa and Arya Stark in the last season of GoT. One that results in someone more deserving having their metaphorical throat cut in the process.

A slght tagent but all this shows just how scummy and counterproductive the AltRetards are. As game blogging is where many men on the Alt Right come from, I got to thinking what the equivalent of the retards were in that community. They were basically the autistic commenters and writers who seldom (if ever), went out into the field to apply the theory. What they did was spend their time nit picking posts and systematizing the theory beyond all reason, defeating the whole purpose of its existence.

Anonymous Charlottesvillain September 09, 2017 8:05 AM  

@19
"Andrew TorbaPRO · @a
6 minutes
Vox you omitted the 6 emails you sent me personally within ~24 hours

He didn't 'omit' them. He acknowledged them, and summarized their length and content."
-----
Vox acknowledged and summarized four emails to Utsav and said, "It really was just a phone call or two and an email or four."

Torba claims that Vox is omitting six additional emails that Vox sent him (Torba) within ~24 hours.

Anonymous Post Alley Crackpot September 09, 2017 8:06 AM  

SirGroggy: "Next he will challenge Vox to a rap battle."

I like big butts and I cannot lie ... but I am not looking forward to VD's butt-shaking rendition of "Baby Got Back". :-)

Blogger lyovmyshkin September 09, 2017 8:07 AM  

I'd just like to propose a little thought experiment:

So say you successfully get a court order for Gab to hand you over those identities and you are successful in suing them for libel. Say all of your efforts in this regard are succesful and you sit, contented, in your 'Supreme Dark Lord' -- makes me almost vomit typing that -- throne victorious and the likely poor teenagers you've vanquished lie in ruin.

What of it? What will you win? I know it's hard to comprehend for you but you've alienated a vast amount of people already. Also, what percentage of people reading those stupid posts do you actually think believed their truth?

I'd say the amount is close to zero. So here you are spending your energy trying to prove to people who don't exist that you aren't a pedophile. People who, BTW, never thought and don't actually think you are one.

This, IMHO, does not help your mission.

Blogger SirGroggy September 09, 2017 8:07 AM  

This crap is really unproductive. Why not just see who has the biggest dick?

Read the damn article? There are a number of productive suggestions.

Anonymous Avalanche September 09, 2017 8:08 AM  

@13 The point Utsav was making is that we were incredibly busy yet you continued to contact us repeatedly. That's it.

REALLY?!?! Ask ANY business owner about "I'm busy but the damned phone keeps ringing (and/or customers keep walking in the door and interrupting me)"! That's the POINT of being a biz owner, you learn to juggle many many things at one time; and "putting out fires" is a MAIN thing!

AND if a biz owner has NOT prepared or considered *in advance* what s/he will do... "in this case," "if that happens," if these customer requests/requirements conflict," "if this hurricane lands" ... then that biz owner is FAILING in the requirement of the job!

There are days when I WISH I could turn the phone off and concentrate on making product! Tough for me -- answering customers and *dealing* is a MAJOR part of the job.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 09, 2017 8:09 AM  

@32 SirGroggy

Someone mentioned a mixtape in a previous thread. But, there's generally a Psykosonik song for all occasions... hold on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shxbP1y_qAs

"Welcome to My Mind"

"Welcome, enter nightmare center
Darkness falls, now I surrender
Hateful dreaming, self-demeaning
Running from a faith where void has meaning
Search for light in the endless night
Make the choice, it's black or white
Deadly races, midnight places
Drowning in a sea of murderous faces"

That probably works.

Blogger SirGroggy September 09, 2017 8:11 AM  

I like big butts and I cannot lie ... but I am not looking forward to VD's butt-shaking rendition of "Baby Got Back". :-)

I was thinking something like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFA-rOls8YA

Blogger Billy September 09, 2017 8:12 AM  

I just been just casually read the site. If I understand it correctly, the trolls are going nuts on Gab, and Vox was like damn this shits got stop. Man, I thought Vox had lost it for a minute. If there ain't structure and guidelines for ñeople getting my dragged through the mud, Gab is going to lose. This all started when the Dailystormer lost its site. They talk of their trolling abilitys. They need to chill the hell out, fucking with people. If they are the ones

Blogger Markku September 09, 2017 8:12 AM  

"I'd say the amount is close to zero."

Close to zero means, by definition, one or more. And right there, you admitted to libel.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/social-sciences-and-law/law/law/libel-and-slander

To prove that the material was defamatory, the plaintiff must show that at least one other person who saw or heard it understood it as having defamatory meaning. It is necessary to show not that all who heard or read the statement understood it to be defamatory, but only that one person other than the plaintiff did so.

Blogger SirGroggy September 09, 2017 8:13 AM  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFA-rOls8YA

Actually, it works even better for Vox vs Anglin, come to think of it :) LOL

Anonymous Post Alley Crackpot September 09, 2017 8:13 AM  

OMG this is like what you'd get if you hallucinated Hitler while watching Professor Elemental :-)

YES

Anonymous JAMES September 09, 2017 8:15 AM  

So VD is trying to kill Gab?

Good. Gab sucks anyway.

Screwing with the heads of nazi larpers is just a bonus really.

Blogger lyovmyshkin September 09, 2017 8:17 AM  

@44

Yes sir the point being made wasn't whether it was or wasn't technically libel.

The point is that even if you can prove it in a court of law it will gain you nothing but resentment.

Also, as others have pointed out, VD himself has counseled others to, without evidence, label others as pedophiles without evidence.

Maybe legally you can win -- I stress MAYBE. But ethically and in every other way this is all an embarrassing farce.

Everyone outside of this bizarre, cult like atmosphere is laughing at you. They're right to.

Blogger Matt@Occidentalism.org September 09, 2017 8:23 AM  

What is with all the shucking and jiving. Just file suit and get the court order for Gab to provide such information that they have. Anything other talk is wasted breath. And trying to get Gab to give up personal information without a court order is absurd and illegal for Gab to do so.

Blogger Lemur September 09, 2017 8:23 AM  

Utsav SandujaPRO · @u
6 minutes · edited
I did speak truthfully on the subject. There is no "false narrative", this is reality. You were incessant in your communications and it frankly pissed us off, came off very unprofessional. Your constant suggestions on how Gab should conduct its business, came off as petulant, as we perceived it

Anonymous Avalanche September 09, 2017 8:24 AM  

@38 What of it? What will you win? I know it's hard to comprehend for you

Are you intentionally being obtuse? This is NOT a 'fight' between A Torba and Vox Day. This is about protecting,expanding, and solidifying/formalizing Alt TECH! Andrew has a great gaping hole in his Alt Tech system. Vox is (I'm projecting here, but it seems reasonable) TRYING to help Torba fix that holes before it sinks Torba's ship entirely!

When Torba FIRST deleted a Gab because of blackmail / pressure from the Host(ISP? whatever); Gab (and this blog) broke out in wailing and gnashing of teeth. (That was -- well SHOULD have been -- Torba's first notification of a leak in the hull of his metaphorical ship.)

VOX actually tried to help calm that down (plug the metaphorical leak); VOX said he was still supporting Torba and tried to explain why. HE posted and DarkStreamed about the three types of speech -- TRYING to educate the wailers --AND Torba! (Again, MY (business-owner) projection of what Vox appears to have tried.)

Torba is seemingly having a hissy fit -- believing that VOX is somehow 'damaging his ship' -- and he'd rather fight on deck against an experienced 'ship builder' (okay, now I'm just torturing the metaphor... sorry), than TRY to figure out how to stop the flooding.

The "win" in this instance is keeping TORBA'S "ship" from being swamped and **sinking**. Torba's ship is PART of the fleet that is Alt Tech.

Can you not lift your 'focus' and see the bigger picture? It's not Torba vs. Day: it's the SHIP is flooding, how do we stop it from going down!

Blogger wreckage September 09, 2017 8:25 AM  

@38 Gab actually, legally, in fact, needs some sort of policy for dealing with libel. Better that Vox prosecutes that now, than that someone intent on Gab's destruction does so later.

Howzat?

Well, Vox is making no claim against Gab.

Anyone with a good legal team could, based on having a case for libel, go on to seriously f* with Gab for any imagined responsibility or culpability, or for being an accomplice after the fact, or for their blatant declaration that they were going to ignore the law in their state, and, let me add a breakhere:

NONE OF IT HAS TO STICK. Torba thinks he's busy now? Try spending the next year or three endlessly complying with subpoenas, discovery, and all the nuts and bolts of EVERY possible actionable violation stemming from the libel.

Sure, he'd probably be found not guilty. After the process had broken him spiritually and financially.

Vox is doing Gab a favour; or at the very least, SERIOUSLY pulling his punches.

Blogger Cail Corishev September 09, 2017 8:25 AM  

This crap is really unproductive.

Reposting the same concern others already have dozens of times, on the other hand, is super-productive.

Blogger Felix Bellator September 09, 2017 8:26 AM  

@48 "Everyone outside of this bizarre, cult like atmosphere is laughing at you."

Everyone? The train is fine.

Anonymous Cassie September 09, 2017 8:28 AM  

Oh, the muh free speeeeechers... *pinches nose* God bless your hearts, dears.

Vox is a HERO for doing this, y'all. How do you not understand this?! Do you remember the last piece of internet trash he took to the curb? The troll who'd been harassing people for YEARS with impunity, because they didn't have the resources of the Supreme Dark Lord to make the criminal lunatic STOP?

Do not let your love of the ideal of free speech turn you into a useful idiot defending criminal behavior! Do you think the vast majority of normies is going to look at you defending criminal harassment and say, "Gosh wow, these guys are so principled"? NO, they are going to think you are HORRIBLE PEOPLE SUPPORTING HORRIBLE BEHAVIOR.

If you love free speech, you should be AGAINST harassment that drives people to (a) self-censor and eventually (b) stop speaking entirely. Which speech is more important to you: the normie speech that gets chilled to subzero by the specter of troll mobbing, or the vile defamatory insults of a bunch of deliberately bad actors?

Lord preserve us from midwits, amen.

Blogger Matt@Occidentalism.org September 09, 2017 8:29 AM  

I suggested to Andrew Torba that the ToS should include a clause prohibiting threats of legal action via the Gab platform. That wouldn't prevent legal action taking place (that's not the purpose) but it would prevent idle threats of legal action being made.

Blogger Felix Bellator September 09, 2017 8:29 AM  

@51, @52, @53 - Thank you.

Blogger wreckage September 09, 2017 8:30 AM  

@48 bizarre and cult like as in, several regular posters here openly and vehemently disagree with Vox on at least one of his major theses?

Anonymous Tanjil Bren September 09, 2017 8:30 AM  

"Of course, I also feel that it is right to remove libelous and defamatory posts..."

Ahhh, just as importantly (even if not more so), by allowing such a post to remain after having been alerted to its nature leaves one open to the same charge (and the same potential damages claim).

And you'd have to be crazy to do so.

Blogger lyovmyshkin September 09, 2017 8:33 AM  

@51 @52

As usual the same odd hero worship. This place should be studied. Zero reflection, zero ability to take on critical ideas.

Simply 'The Glorious Leader is right in all ways and isn't even being harsh enough.'

Best Korea levels of delusion.

Anonymous johnc September 09, 2017 8:33 AM  

Maybe things have changed in the past year but I thought Gab was just a bunch of volunteers trying to get this thing off the ground.

I never saw them as a major company with massive resources to hire a large staff to handle all of these quibbles like, e.g., Twitter which received large investment from big-wig institutional players.

Would Infogalactic staff be able to handle potentially thousands of support requests per day regarding defamation claims?

Either way, this really exposes some weaknesses of the Alt-Tech strategy.

Blogger wreckage September 09, 2017 8:34 AM  

@55, please. As a tested and confirmed midwit, we're talking behaviour that is at least 30 points south of me. That puts you in mid-low average territory. Educable but dull.

Blogger wreckage September 09, 2017 8:38 AM  

@60. I pointed out how I would screw Gab and more particularly Torba over, if that was my goal, and I had resources.

You might have missed the fact that Vox is at worst "moderately well connected", and has significant resources.

Now, this is pretty elementary stuff, but you can look at it as a test of basic reasoning. Given these facts, did my statements not logically follow?

Blogger Matt@Occidentalism.org September 09, 2017 8:38 AM  

Just when I thought the IQ level couldn't get lower here, it did. Geez, you shills are moronic and here's why.

Specifically these retards - @51, @52, @53 @59

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communications_Decency_Act

Gab isn't responsible for user content.

Once we win a eugenic policy will mean that one day people as dumb as Vox Day shills won't exist anymore and its going to be fantastic.

Blogger artensoll September 09, 2017 8:39 AM  

Torba reminds me of the fat kid in school who turns on his real friends when the bullies pretend to like her.

I held out on going Pro at Gab because I could see this coming. Now I can spend that money on Voxiversity without cancelling my gourmet coffee subscription. Which is nice.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 09, 2017 8:41 AM  

@52 wreckage

Yup. Some of this was bound to happen, as all TOS are, in effect, something of a Game Design. Eventually the Min/Max happens. The problem with all of the other platforms is highly selective enforcement without any clear guidelines. They're working on something, but Torba isn't helping himself. He really needs to purge his timeline from the last day and get some rest.


@51 Avalanche

The first response from Vox to the troll could be taken a few ways, and I'm pretty sure with Torba's week, he took it in the worst light. Once your ego gets wrapped into something, it's hard to deescalate. Especially when the Alt-Retards/Alt-Neo-Cons are egging him on to self-destruct.

I'd hate to roll out a fairly clear Vectored Attack System on Torba, but it's now both doable and quite brutal if someone set about it. I like the crew over there, so I'd rather not have to need to do it.

Blogger wreckage September 09, 2017 8:42 AM  

@61, you'd need a volunteer/eers whose job was to screen it down to "possibly actually libel". For that you only need people who can understand a systematized or flow-charted "cheat sheet" from a decent lawyer.

For starters, with that in place you can show a court that you are taking action, and that alone will mean there's no case that you're a willing accomplice, or whatever the term of art is.

In short, getting this 50% sorted is in the ball park of a no brainer.

Blogger wreckage September 09, 2017 8:44 AM  

@64 Let me get that for you:

"Once we win, a eugenics policy will mean that one day, people as dumb as Vox Day shills won't exist anymore; and it's going to be fantastic."

Your sentence structure is still rubbish, but here's some grammar for you. No charge.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 09, 2017 8:44 AM  

@67 wreckage

Once the ICO & Microtransactions are in, Gab can actually do some "group moderation" approaches. In the interim, simply an extra report system and an upgrade to the TOS will solve most of it. But Torba needs to de-escalate himself.

Blogger Ransom Smith September 09, 2017 8:46 AM  

I'm enjoying reading all the opinions from internet lawyers this morning. Some great morning kekking.

Funny thing , I was on the ABA website last night , and low and behold they had explicitly stated that there is no reasonable expectation of privacy on social media.

Funny that.

Blogger The Deuce September 09, 2017 8:46 AM  

In retrospect, it's not hard to see why Andrew Torba got angered by your request. He'd just been bullied by his registrar into taking down someone's post, which resulted in him being publicly humiliated and taking a huge amount of flack for it in the community. Assenting to a demand to take down more posts right on the heels of that, regardless of the reason, would've largely been seen as further caving; hence the request put him under more pressure than he already was, and he snapped back to regain a sense of dignity.

Blogger Johnny September 09, 2017 8:47 AM  

Well lets see. My take is that VD does not like being slandered and he reasonably presents himself as representing the class of people who don't like being slandered, which is most of us.

Next we move to the big issue. What should Gab policy be? As I am not in the business it is a guess, but my guess is that there are too many nasty people in the world to allow for simply ignoring the problem, which is essential what Gab is doing now.

As for VD's rules, I would think the number of strikes would be mitigated by time and the number of posts. And provided it is not unduly expensive, some sort of very limited due process would be desirable for those banned. At the very least Gab should furnish the posts that produced the banning. At most a complaint process for those who get shut down. Otherwise there are apt to be complainers who abuse the complaint process.

Anonymous Tanjil Bren September 09, 2017 8:48 AM  

"Gab isn't responsible for user content."

You need to be careful who you're calling a retard.

And you very clearly have no idea about the nature of defamation law.

Gab, having been notified of the libelous/defamatory nature of *content published via its platform* is totally open to action (being the publishing platform) but even more so if it does not take immediate action to remove the libelous/defamatory content.

Worse still, they are apparently refusing to do so.

They're crazy.

Blogger Lazarus September 09, 2017 8:51 AM  

Matt@Occidentalism.org wrote:Gab isn't responsible for user content.



Which, of course, has nothing whatsoever to do with any of this.

Blogger The Deuce September 09, 2017 8:51 AM  

Matt@Occidentalism.org wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communications_Decency_Act

Gab isn't responsible for user content.


IIRC, the owners of a social media platform aren't responsible for users posting illegal content. However, if it is brought to their attention, they do become liable for not taking it down. The issue here will come down to whether the anonymous posts really do meet the legal threshold of defamation.

Blogger lyovmyshkin September 09, 2017 8:55 AM  

@75

'Brought to their attention' by the relevant legal authority surely? Not just a user who is pissed about some idiots insulting him right?

Again, maybe it's possible for you to legally do that. However, even if your 'dark lord' wins he loses. This is the biggest joke on the alt-right internet right now. Everyone outside of this weird cult is laughing at you -- hopefully the sensible people inside this cult are as well.

Blogger VD September 09, 2017 8:55 AM  

Would Infogalactic staff be able to handle potentially thousands of support requests per day regarding defamation claims?

Yes. We are very, very good at designing automated systems as well as dealing with trolls.

Torba claims that Vox is omitting six additional emails that Vox sent him (Torba) within ~24 hours.

He is correct. I never said anything about my emails to Andrew. But since he's brought them into it, I will update the post and add them.

Vox is doing Gab a favour; or at the very least, SERIOUSLY pulling his punches.

Only the VFM, the LLoE, and Spacebunny understand how much I am pulling my punches. I repeat: I have no desire to harm or destroy Gab. I am merely exerting the minimum effort required to remove the defamation and correct the false narratives that Andrew and Utsav have attempted to construct.

We all make mistakes. Learning from them is how wisdom and experience are generated. The Gab co-founders are smart young men who are currently in a little over their heads. That's fine. That's entirely normal. The question is, will they eventually learn from their mistakes or will they refuse to do so and repeat them.

Blogger wreckage September 09, 2017 8:56 AM  

Vox's most uncanny power is that of summoning up legions of enemies to vigorously and thoroughly prove his point for him.

@69, yeah, he does need to chill for a bit. It's hellishly hard to do in the middle of a crunch, but if you keep some cognitive discipline you can usually get things manageable. I genuinely hope Torba gets things under control and Gab succeeds.

Blogger Cail Corishev September 09, 2017 8:56 AM  

So I know why he's focused on a fairly expansionist approach. And it can work just fine,

I'm not a legal eagle or even a legal sparrow, so I'll take your word that it can work legally. I have my doubts on how well it can work as a practical matter if the infrastructure of registrars and other providers is shanghaied into policing content. But that's a separate question.

Accusing someone of being a child rapist is just mean words on the internet?

Well, in a sense, that was once true. If someone accused you of that on Usenet in 1998, you ignored it and went on with your day. Technically, yeah, maybe you could get a lawyer and try to track the person down and press a case, but no one did that, because it was just kinda understood that that was part of the deal. The freedom to do whatever you wanted implied the freedom to do whatever anyone else wanted, and some people want to be more disgusting than you can imagine. Rule 34.

Maybe Torba thought Gab could function that way. If so, I sympathize, but I think it was naive, and the jig was up when he got setup on the Anglin post. That was never likely to work on the Web, where every piece of data belongs to someone, and that someone and the someones who provide his network services can be determined by a DNS lookup and a whois. It's damn sure not going to work in an environment where registrars are being flooded with phone calls and attacked with botnets over a client's content.

I'm honestly not sure what the answer to that is yet, or if there is one. It's not a legal issue, because Gab can set up all the legal oversight teams it wants, and it's still going to have to convince its registrar to back it any time Gab refuses to take something down because the legal team says it's okay and the offended party decides to attack through the registrar or other infrastructure provider.

Anonymous johnc September 09, 2017 8:57 AM  

@67 you'd need a volunteer/eers whose job was to screen it down to "possibly actually libel". For that you only need people who can understand a systematized or flow-charted "cheat sheet" from a decent lawyer.

Who the hell would volunteer to handle potentially thousands of libellous claims everyday? And just wait until the trolls find out that they can waste everybody's time with the tactic of reporting offensive posts. Would you want to do that all day for no pay? No thanks... I'd rather browse YouTube myself.

I remember when this place FUH-lipped out when Milo was banned from Twitter. Milo was nothing but a damn troll all over Twitter, getting people's accounts swamped with childish attacks. One actress had to suspend her activity because her account was overrun with trolls. And he was eventually banned for a libellous post. (Which was a true accusation; he said something false.) Most here complained and said that we need an alternative to Twitter that wouldn't ban people like Milo.

Blogger WATYF September 09, 2017 8:57 AM  

SirGroggy wrote:

Andrew Torba · @a

9 hours

"Andrew Torba is clearly not ready for primetime."

>Meanwhile I'm featured on Fox News at primetime and no one knows your name

This kind of trash-talking would be more suited to a reality TV star...


...or the President of the United States.

But I repeat myself.

That's the thing about the whole "rhetoric" approach that's been promoted around here lately. Everyone is down in the mud and no one has any justification to complain. We cheer Trump when he trashes someone on Twitter and then deride an opponent when they do the same. We tell people to accuse their opponents of being pedophiles and then call our lawyers when someone does it to us. Bleh. What a waste.

WATYF

Anonymous Tanjil Bren September 09, 2017 8:59 AM  

"IIRC, the owners of a social media platform aren't responsible for users posting illegal content."

This is quite true.

But their problem is that the minute it's up there, via their publishing platform, *they are the publisher and therefore they own it*.

This has been tested in many more than one jurisdiction (both US and UK-type common law) and it has significant teeth.

And it crosses jurisdictions too.

For example, publish in the US and get read in Aus' *and you defame in Aus'*.

The potential for damages is horrendous.

Blogger VD September 09, 2017 8:59 AM  

Gab isn't responsible for user content.

We all know that, subject to some various scenarios that are not currently relevant. That has never been the matter at hand. Do stop trying to play Internet Lawyer. I am sufficiently well-advised on the legal side.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 09, 2017 9:01 AM  

@75 The Deuce

"You slept with X's wife!" may be Libelous, but there's no way for Gab to adjudicate that, as both parties would say their side is correct. Leaving the comment up doesn't leave lasting damage, since making the charge already would do most of the damage.

"You raped a child" is Libelous and opens both Parties to Criminal Liability. Calling a Man a rapist without any proof ruins lives in the West. This is the "bug" in Gab's current TOS System. It just needs to be fixed.

The "Subpoena for PII" is a high standard, but appears to be a perfectly valid legal position.

There's multiple issues here, some not in question, but Torba had a rough week and this got in head. That Registrar stunt put Torba's ~6 million USD stack in Gab at risk. (He owns 66% of the company and it's current value is around 10 million USD.) I can fully appreciate him being on tilt.

But he needs to get some sleep and cool his head. Gab is actually working on an approach, but Torba isn't helping matters.

Blogger wreckage September 09, 2017 9:04 AM  

@76
"'Brought to their attention' by the relevant legal authority surely?"

Generally? Nope. As soon as you're aware you're potentially complicit. Libel (for example) is a criminal offense, not a technical/legislative/civil one, so hypothetically **IF** the content is actually, in fact, "illegal" you are profoundly boned, and no disclaimer, waiver, or EULA means more than a fart in a hurricane.

Except that at some physical level the fart exists, so the aforementioned are infinitely less significant.

Anonymous Tanjil Bren September 09, 2017 9:04 AM  

"Only the VFM, the LLoE, and Spacebunny understand how much I am pulling my punches."

Me too.

Blogger Lovekraft September 09, 2017 9:06 AM  

20 votes so far on a gab poll asking if people think gab's been infiltrated by marxists in order to disrupt and divide.

95% yes.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 09, 2017 9:08 AM  

Found it. It wasn't just "Gab at risk" with the Registrar stunt. This is the first time he's tasted large sums of money, and someone tried to yank it all from him in the past week. He's rattled by it.

That's why he took Vox's statements the wrong way. He's a paper multi-millionaire as of a few weeks ago and someone tried to destroy him over it. That'll fry anyone's nerves.

Blogger lyovmyshkin September 09, 2017 9:11 AM  

@85

"Libel (for example) is a criminal offense"

No it isn't. Some libel is criminal; some isn't.

Good luck proving in this case that it is. And, as I've stated, may you fully enjoy the fruits of your victory.

Just in case you're wondering: There will be none.

Blogger wreckage September 09, 2017 9:11 AM  

@80, I really don't give a single pinch of poo how they do it or how onerous it is, they need a legal shield and they don't have one. It's really that simple. I noted one conceptually simple way of demonstrating what would in the field I am familiar with, in business not as a lawyer, be considered attempted compliance, harm minimization, responsible actions, etc, etc, etc.

You think you're arguing on the internet over hypotheticals.

Actually someone with north of 15 years experience in a very high risk industry just gave you a friendly word on how it works for us and how we control liability.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 09, 2017 9:12 AM  

If that Money part doesn't click for you, I knew someone that made a lot (Dot Com bubble) and lost it. Then put a bullet in his head. Good man, bunch of grand kids, made good money before the boom.

That's what this can do to you. That's part of the reason I'm giving Torba some time, as this is a pretty small problem to solve.

Blogger Fenris Wulf September 09, 2017 9:12 AM  

Some years ago, I participated in a forum for music professionals. There were a couple of nasty characters there, men in their 50's who behaved like high school bullies, and they engaged in harassment and personal attacks that eventually graduated to libel. The moderator couldn't be bothered to deal with it. The old boys' club took great enjoyment in driving away new members, the forum acquired a reputation for undignified and unprofessional behavior, and the more interesting people left. Finally, the forum died an ignominious death and was taken off-line, as there was no longer any content worth archiving or preserving.

The forum was overrun with off-topic political threads, invariably left-wing, and anyone who went against the mob had his posts deleted. This is quite common on music forums, even the ones that have a stated policy against political threads. When I'm reading up on vintage guitar pickups or what-have-you, I don't want a lecture on white privilege. I abruptly resigned from my last forum because of one particular individual whose views were so repugnant that I didn't want to breathe the same air as him.

The experience that pissed me off the most involved an arcane technical discussion. I improved the performance of a multi-track tape machine by changing a resistor in the record amplifier, and posted the results. I was met with extreme hostility and rudeness by an old guy who considered himself an expert in this particular machine, and told me repeatedly, in all caps and in two dozen posts, that I didn't know what I was doing and my machine was broken. I never posted there again. Subsequently, the forum was wiped out by a server crash, and ten years' worth of valuable technical information was lost.

There's a lot of things that can go wrong with a forum if it's not managed properly. A good forum can lead to lasting friendships and enhance your professional reputation, while a bad forum can destroy it.

Blogger wreckage September 09, 2017 9:13 AM  

@89, I covered that. Learn to read.

Anonymous Tanjil Bren September 09, 2017 9:14 AM  

"Libel (for example) is a criminal offense..."

Not in English/Commonwealth law.

Civil offence only.

Anonymous Ages September 09, 2017 9:15 AM  

Muh libel!!!!

Trolls calling you a fag is not libel. Haven't you ever heard of "don't feed the trolls"? If you ignore it, it goes away. But it's too late now.

Watch Mister Metokur's recent video about the crypto-pedophile for notes about why you don't respond to trolls.

Blogger Matt@Occidentalism.org September 09, 2017 9:15 AM  

83. VD

"We all know that, subject to some various scenarios that are not currently relevant. That has never been the matter at hand. Do stop trying to play Internet Lawyer. I am sufficiently well-advised on the legal side."

I am not offering legal advice. I was responding to your moronic shills.

You have done incalculable damage to yourself for nothing.

Blogger VD September 09, 2017 9:19 AM  

You have done incalculable damage to yourself for nothing.

You know, I've been told that by people since my first year of writing political columns in 2001. And yet, all that damage hasn't even slowed me down.

You cannot speak your preferred narrative into material reality. Reality doesn't work like that.

Blogger lyovmyshkin September 09, 2017 9:21 AM  

@93

Sorry I didn't notice where you 'covered' the fact that you made a massive error. Did you cover that?

Where did you cover that? I can't see you covering that silly error? Maybe cover that in your next post if you're going to cover anything. Cover the fact that you make silly things up. Then cover the way you double down on your own errors and start calling everyone stupid.

That would be a pretty sweet thing to cover probably.

Blogger wreckage September 09, 2017 9:24 AM  

@94; Criminal defamation does exist in Gab's home state though, yes?
I'm not a lawyer though, so thankyou for the correction.

In Australia there is a category of offenses that fall into a weird legislative category inferior to common law, whereas parliamentary sovereignty normally implies that legislation overrules the common law if there is a direct conflict.

I don't understand the distinctions but am aware that the processes and implications are different, which is what I was alluding to; and the statement holds with that correction, yes?

Anonymous johnc September 09, 2017 9:25 AM  

@90 The point you're helping me make is about the impracticality of "Alt-Tech".

We already have a well-policed social media platform for micro-blogging 140 chars or less. What value does Gab add above what is already established?

Blogger Lemur September 09, 2017 9:27 AM  

Vox the Gen X-er pontificating to millennials and Zeds about the special insights he has into the world. my sides. Your generation amounts to Boomerism on steroids.

Blogger tuberman September 09, 2017 9:27 AM  

I've seen some sites that were fairly large (weight lifting sites), although not near the size of Gab, which were left without moderation. The trolls took over, ugly.

Anonymous Tanjil Bren September 09, 2017 9:27 AM  

"I am not offering legal advice. I was responding to your moronic shills."

Uh huh.

"...a defence to defamation is that the defendant neither knew, nor ought reasonably to have known of the defamation, and the lack of knowledge was not due to the defendant's negligence..."

But here's their problem (same for any *publisher* who is alerted of potentially libelous content): now they know.

And if they do nothing about it after having been told?

No more defence.

Anonymous Orthodox September 09, 2017 9:28 AM  

The overlooked issue with Twitter is that it has a legitimate problem with bad behavior. It is a terrible platform because the ToS is politically enforced. People do leave Twitter because of actual trolls whose sole interest is annoying and upsetting people. Twitter went off the rails when it defined being an energetic Trump supporter or speaker of Hate Facts and Hate Truths as trolling.

Most people are happy with rules if they are consistently applied. If Twitter removed all the "kill all white people" posts, it would get far less complaints. The area of contention would be the strictness or laxness of their rules, not their unfair application.

Each social media company should have a decency standard that is universally applied, or none, as is their right. The mistake Torba and others make is thinking Twitter was wrong to police at all.

Blogger wreckage September 09, 2017 9:28 AM  

@98; I'm sorry, can you give me a quick outline of the error I made? Just a simple point form run-down of the correct use of the word "criminal" in this respect, and the word I should have used, with a brief listing of the applicable jurisdictions would be fine.

Blogger lyovmyshkin September 09, 2017 9:31 AM  

@103

"And if they do nothing about it after having been told?

No more defence."

Again, just utter tripe. If they are informed by a relevant legal authority then this is meaningful.

If some user is upset that anonymous morons are saying stupid things about him this is meaningless.

Blogger wreckage September 09, 2017 9:32 AM  

@106

"Again, just utter tripe. If they are informed by a relevant legal authority then this is meaningful."

Oh dear merciful God, NO.

Blogger lyovmyshkin September 09, 2017 9:39 AM  

@107

Go back to talking about your immense knowledge of libel law. At least you were funny then.

Reminder you said 'libel IS a criminal offense'. Not 'can be'. Not 'is potentially'. Just IS.

You're talking about a subject you have zero knowledge about.

As an aside, I, in all likelihood, have as much knowledge on the subject as you do.

I'm just self aware enough to not go around spouting lies about topics I'm not an expert on.

It would need minutes of research to realize how wrong you were in that regard.

This cult is full of deluded, self-important freaks.

It's entertaining at least.

Blogger BunE22 September 09, 2017 9:39 AM  

I felt
I also feel

Aren't those gamma tells? Vox is now the SJW.

P.S. I love Andrew Torba now!

Anonymous Tanjil Bren September 09, 2017 9:41 AM  

"Again, just utter tripe. If they are informed by a relevant legal authority then this is meaningful.

If some user is upset that anonymous morons are saying stupid things about him this is meaningless."

I can tell you've never been through this particular wringer.

So, take it from someone who has.

You may learn something here.

(Or not. Up to you.)

Blogger lyovmyshkin September 09, 2017 9:42 AM  

@110

This is the most embarrassing comment section on the net.

It makes your average Salon lurker seem reasonable and balanced.

I've never seen anything like it in my life.

Anonymous Cassie September 09, 2017 9:43 AM  

Wreckage, I must concede - you're right on the IQ. However, the dullards do not appear to be educable. ;)

Blogger lyovmyshkin September 09, 2017 9:44 AM  

@111

I've learned how fascinating it is to observe the behaviour of real cults of personality.

I'm eternally grateful actually.

Anonymous Reenay September 09, 2017 9:45 AM  

@95 To the contrary, within the mainstream, being called a fag is no longer slanderous but praise.

"Pedophile" may not be far behind if (((certain elements))) are left unchecked.

Blogger VD September 09, 2017 9:46 AM  

Time to leave now, Matt@Occidentalism.org. Your style has grown tiresome.

No more commenting today.

Anonymous glosoli September 09, 2017 9:46 AM  

Gabbers are quoting you (Vox) as having said (on video): 'Frankly, I don't think anyone in the world believes the accusation that I am a pedophile.'

Gabbers have also posted a screencap of Vox telling readers here how to respond to being called a racist:

https://gabfiles.blob.core.windows.net/image/59b2d555ea42c.png

Vox, would you agree you're now taking legal action against others for doing exactly what you suggested 10 months ago (responf by calling them pedos, even when they're not)?

And I agree, no one believes you are a pedo, and that it was purely a rhetorical jibe.

I am struggling to see why you feel the need to sue, and can understand Torba ignoring your suggestions for a legal board. It's his business.

As a new Christian who literally learned of the things God hates via this blog, I can't help but think of a proud look, feet that be swift in running to mischief, and he that soweth discord among brethren.


Anonymous Casey September 09, 2017 9:46 AM  

The Daily Shoah podcast alone destroys any case which could have been made.

I'm quite certain that Gab's legal representation knows this.

Blogger VD September 09, 2017 9:47 AM  

And you're done today as well, lyovmyshkin.

You simply don't know what you're talking about. You can comment again tomorrow.

Blogger wreckage September 09, 2017 9:47 AM  

Sorry, Mr Ivoy. I meant "common law", not "criminal". But, even that could be wrong.

As I said, repeatedly, I'm not a lawyer. I am experienced in controlling certain classes of liability, and I offered that experience in good will.

"I, in all likelihood, have as much knowledge on the subject as you do."

You don't understand "nor ought reasonably to have known".

You think confusing the terms makes the normal process of law disappear in a puff of smoke.

Finally, you think that user Tanjil Bren correcting me somehow means you are.... what? A legal expert?

I accepted correction from someone who demonstrated greater familiarity with the subject.

But you can't.

Why?

Blogger VD September 09, 2017 9:49 AM  

The Daily Shoah podcast alone destroys any case which could have been made.

You don't understand how this works. Advocating stealing does not permit everyone to subsequently steal from you. If they do, they will still be prosecuted.

My advice was excellent rhetorical advice. It was potentially dangerous legal advice, which should not be surprising as I am not a lawyer. But it in no way permits open season on me for defamation, because my words and actions do not define the law.

Is that really that hard to follow? Also, note that defamation per se does not require true belief or even malice.

Anonymous TS September 09, 2017 9:52 AM  

VD, a swastika arm band on the Gamma Boy in your new comic strip would fit nicely?

Blogger VD September 09, 2017 9:54 AM  

Vox, would you agree you're now taking legal action against others for doing exactly what you suggested 10 months ago (responf by calling them pedos, even when they're not)?

No. I suggested responding to slander with slander. I am being libeled by strangers with whom I have never had any interaction whatsoever.

And I agree, no one believes you are a pedo, and that it was purely a rhetorical jibe.

That doesn't matter. It falls into the category of defamation per se. Furthermore, that is far from the only defamation that has been committed. I have never recommended producing child pornography, consuming child pornography, molesting children, or being gang-banged by black men.

Even if the "you recommended it" argument were true - and it is not - that doesn't cover the larger part of the current defamation now anyhow.

Anonymous Orthodox September 09, 2017 9:55 AM  

A lot of people who are not "Alt-Reich" think Vox is going off the rails. Maybe they are wrong, but attacking people as enemies when they are concerned allies, is stupid.

Anonymous Tanjil Bren September 09, 2017 9:55 AM  

"This is the most embarrassing comment section on the net."

(I truly begin to understand Vox's frustration.)

All *I* have ventured here is the potential liability any publisher faces when confronted by a third party who accuses that publisher of publishing libelous/defamatory content.

*Any* competent legal counsel will advise one thing, straight up (and particularly if it's something as basic as a comment post): Pull. The. Comment.

Because failing to do so means that, in the event the libel/defamation is established in a court, the publisher is up for damages.

Been there.

Done that.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 09, 2017 9:59 AM  

@120. VD

Is that really that hard to follow?

After the last two days. It's beyond their capacity.

Kicking the Anglin Collective's ass, godspeed good sir.


@116 glosoli

They're making a category error. Although we've noted after this entire dust up to be careful with the pedophile tag, there are other, nasty rhetoric to use when needed. You adapt tactics when you find they'd cause you more problems.

And, as Vox pointed out, his previous statements doesn't dictate Legal Standards. Plus, that's technically to be sorted out in the courts. Vox just wants the PII from Gab, which he'll have a subpoena filed for. No biggie.

Blogger The Deuce September 09, 2017 10:01 AM  

@76
'Brought to their attention' by the relevant legal authority surely? Not just a user who is pissed about some idiots insulting him right?

No. If it's been brought to their attention and is something that they understand as illegal or should reasonably understand as illegal based on the law, it doesn't matter how they became aware of it.

Everyone outside of this weird cult is laughing at you -- hopefully the sensible people inside this cult are as well.

Irrelevant even if it were true. Every single person here has heard the exact same "Everyone is laughing at you" line from SJWs a hundred times. Why would you think that bit of hackneyed rhetoric is going to get into anybody's head coming from you?

I'm simply stating what the facts are as I understand it. If they're true, they're true, and you're not going to trash-talk them out of existence. I don't even agree with Vox's actions here to be quite honest, but it's not nearly so cut and dried as you want to think.

Anonymous Casey September 09, 2017 10:01 AM  

It's not difficult to visualize how a court will react to an excerpt of that podcast being used as a defense.

Essentially, your detractors on Gab were simply following your advice.

Even a mediocre attorney could portray you as their instructor.

In fact, you are. And they understood that when they selected their choice of words to use.

This was a set-up.

Blogger tuberman September 09, 2017 10:04 AM  

Orthodox wrote:A lot of people who are not "Alt-Reich" think Vox is going off the rails. Maybe they are wrong, but attacking people as enemies when they are concerned allies, is stupid.

If within a year Gab is destroyed by trolls (not VD's actions), you will either be one of those trolls, or be gone from there. Been There. Done That.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 09, 2017 10:05 AM  

Ugh, my typing goes to hell as it approaches midnight. "Kick", even!

And, something fun for later, that I figured out deep in a previous thread. The Nazi LARPers are actually jew-obsessed NeoCons. No joke. They're "not-Commies", of the Left & Imperialist. If their in their mid-20s or younger, they grew up during the Iraq War and NeoCon propaganda era.

Thus, if they aren't of the SJW left of their age bracket, they're most influenced by the NeoCons. So they're Alt-Left NeoCons that like to LARP as Nazis to cover up the double failure in their ideology.

Anonymous deplorable September 09, 2017 10:05 AM  

"But attacking people as enemies when they are concerned allies, is stupid."

That's what you call "concerned allies"!?

Anonymous Rum Raisin September 09, 2017 10:05 AM  

You have done incalculable damage to yourself for nothing.

They make you look like a fool.

You fail Sun Tzu, for you know neither your enemy nor yourself.

99% of the time, people who make statements like this are signaling that this is their own particular vulnerability. They are also signaling that they don't understand Vox, who has no such vulnerability.

Most people who aren't regulars here don't realize that Vox isn't bragging or offering false bravado when he says he doesn't care. You can't outgroup someone who doesn't want to belong to the group, and you can't shame someone about popularity who doesn't care about popularity.

Most people don't comprehend this, because they do care about these things and can't imagine anyone who doesn't.

As Vox pointed out, he's weathered the other hundreds of times he's "lost credibility" or "harmed his reputation" or "looked like a fool" over the years and somehow managed to grow his blog traffic and notoriety significantly in spite of it.

Guys like you may not know yourselves, but others here know you. What a person thinks is revealed by how he acts. Don't think it's escaped anyone's notice that so many of you who think Vox is damaged and insignificant and a loser, etc. are spending a lot of time and effort here trying to establish that supposedly self evident narrative.

Blogger wreckage September 09, 2017 10:08 AM  

@123 Vox was never ON the rails. Some can't deal with such people, finding it hard to even categorize them properly. I grew up around and am comfortable with the personality type.

They're potentially wildly offensive, over the top in some ways, dead on target in others, and generally just a lot less boring than most. But what they never are is on the rails others define for them.

Blogger tuberman September 09, 2017 10:09 AM  

This is standard MO for all Leftist guerrilla infiltration, and isolation of Gab is the main target.

Blogger meinnit September 09, 2017 10:11 AM  

How can Vox be "The Supreme Dark Lord" if people are allowed to make fun of him on the internet?

Sort it out Gab!!

Anonymous deplorable September 09, 2017 10:12 AM  

"Thus, if they aren't of the SJW left of their age bracket, they're most influenced by the NeoCons. So they're Alt-Left NeoCons that like to LARP as Nazis to cover up the double failure in their ideology."

Sounds about right (See their "Boomers on steroids" comment above). They are so full of themselves and don't have a fucking clue. Hey newbies STFU and get in line. X gen still cleaning up boomer messes.

Anonymous Tanjil Bren September 09, 2017 10:13 AM  

"Finally, you think that user Tanjil Bren correcting me somehow means you are..'

Wreckage, absolutely no acrimony attached.

(And I think I may know you. Yours is an old screen name, yes? Does 'A Western Heart' ring a bell at all?)

Anonymous johnc September 09, 2017 10:15 AM  

@104 witter went off the rails when it defined being an energetic Trump supporter or speaker of Hate Facts and Hate Truths as trolling.

Most people are happy with rules if they are consistently applied. If Twitter removed all the "kill all white people" posts, it would get far less complaints. The area of contention would be the strictness or laxness of their rules, not their unfair application.


I am not defending Twitter but I will play devil's advocate on their behalf.

Twitter operates in many, many countries including Western countries that have very clear hate speech laws. And we're not talking about hate speech "suggestions"; these laws have just as much weight as libel and slander.

E.g., in Germany I believe you're not allowed to publicly express a critical view of the accepted Holocaust narrative. In some Western countries, professing a Biblical view of homosexuality is classified as hate speech. In others, a too-critical view of Islam would qualify as hate speech.

To your point about allowing statements like, "kill all white people". In many cases, "kill all black people" and "kill all Jews" would be considered expressions of hate speech because these targeted groups are seen as historically persecuted groups in Western countries, whereas whites are not.

Even some of the comments made here in the comments section would run afoul of many Western countries' hate speech laws.

I don't see a lot of wiggle room for Gab here. If they are required to police their users' comments then they must also police hate speech.

Anonymous SaltyDonnie September 09, 2017 10:16 AM  

I'm playing catchup here, but actual damages is a big element in defamation. So what loss was suffered by the original offending messages? It would have to be monetary. Unless lawyers are raping you hourly, there is no obvious money in a lawsuit. It seems more damage is resulting from the surrounding kerfluffle than from the original posts. So why is this Vox Gab squabble public anyway? Call your respective lawyers and work it out.

Blogger wreckage September 09, 2017 10:16 AM  

@136, old enough, yeah. And I read no acrimony into it; you corrected me and now I know a thing. A Western Heart, I don't specifically remember it but I recognize the name and think I was active there for a while.

Blogger meinnit September 09, 2017 10:16 AM  

A group i knew played too much D&D
Anyways, after a while, the characters they built for themselves started coming through into the real world.

And they all started acting like right fucking weirdoes.

Vox is like 12 years deep into this mindset now!

Blogger meinnit September 09, 2017 10:17 AM  

Lol Vox is banning everything that does not cater to his ego

Whew lads, what a headcase

Blogger meinnit September 09, 2017 10:18 AM  

How can Vox Day be *Supreme Dark lord* (pmsl) if people are allowed to make fun of him on the internet?

Anonymous Crew September 09, 2017 10:19 AM  

I wonder what would happen if someone called Torba a pedophile right there on Gab?

Please not, I am in no way advocating that it be done, I am just conducting a mental exercise.

Blogger tuberman September 09, 2017 10:19 AM  

deplorable wrote:"Thus, if they aren't of the SJW left of their age bracket, they're most influenced by the NeoCons. So they're Alt-Left NeoCons that like to LARP as Nazis to cover up the double failure in their ideology."

Sounds about right (See their "Boomers on steroids" comment above). They are so full of themselves and don't have a fucking clue. Hey newbies STFU and get in line. X gen still cleaning up boomer messes.


Sorry, What you say may be true that Xers are cleaning up. But once you start down the path of "old people are all stupid, and betrayed later generations," it will be extended to Xers even more so, there will be no stopping it.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 09, 2017 10:20 AM  

@131 Rum Raisin

Considering the occasional foray we've seen into Christian Theology by some of the Stormpoopers, these people can't even handle Cause & Effect very well. They've got no ability to understand what Sigma looks like.

Anonymous Tanjil Bren September 09, 2017 10:24 AM  

"139. wreckage September 09, 2017 10:16 AM

@136, old enough, yeah. And I read no acrimony into it; you corrected me and now I know a thing. A Western Heart, I don't specifically remember it but I recognize the name and think I was active there for a while."

I thought I recognised your handle (and politics).

It's been a long time.

(And that was a blog I was gifted and forced to give up.)

Blogger wreckage September 09, 2017 10:25 AM  

@137, the jurisdiction is generally where they're incorporated.

Usually libel and hate speech fall into separate categories.

The "material harm" could be commercial, given Vox's widespread interests.

Political speech has additional protections in most countries.

Finally, Gab is not faced with a choice of "enforce all or enforce nothing", because it is not faced with a philosophical choice, but with legal realities.

Anonymous Anonymous September 09, 2017 10:25 AM  

> The overlooked issue with Twitter is that it has a legitimate problem with bad behavior. It is a terrible platform because the ToS is politically enforced.

Can confirm on both counts. Currently trying to build up an 'influencer' profile on Twitter through white to mildly grey methods, and wow the muck I'm getting glimpses of gives me a lot more sympathy for Twitter's situation. Their enforcers are clearly necessary, that the ones they find enforce a PC narrative along with their necessary functions ... well, not sure what you can do about that. Pretty sure the approach Gab's taking is just going to result in a sewer of unaccountable misbehaviour and every decent person fleeing in disgust, though.

Anonymous deplorable September 09, 2017 10:27 AM  

"Sorry, What you say may be true that Xers are cleaning up."

Of course we are. You don't follow on the heels of a generation like the boomers and not have alot to set right.

"But once you start down the path of "old people are all stupid, and betrayed later generations," it will be extended to Xers even more so, there will be no stopping it."

Unlike the boomers. We don't care what they think. There is work to be done and we can't let the toddlers distract us in the process.

Blogger meinnit September 09, 2017 10:27 AM  

Crew wrote:I wonder what would happen if someone called Torba a pedophile right there on Gab?

Please not, I am in no way advocating that it be done, I am just conducting a mental exercise.
people already did to see what would happen, and he ignored it and nothing happened

Blogger Ransom Smith September 09, 2017 10:29 AM  

I wonder what would happen if someone called Torba a pedophile right there on Gab?

I was wondering the same thing. I don't think Torba gets what he's doing. Saying any and all speech is free opens him up to attacks on his own person. And like others have commented either on this thread or the thread before, it's a whole new game when you have kids and risk having them taken away.

Blogger meinnit September 09, 2017 10:31 AM  

Ransom Smith wrote:I wonder what would happen if someone called Torba a pedophile right there on Gab?

I was wondering the same thing. I don't think Torba gets what he's doing. Saying any and all speech is free opens him up to attacks on his own person. And like others have commented either on this thread or the thread before, it's a whole new game when you have kids and risk having them taken away.


They already did call Torba that on gab to see what would happen.
Torba totally ignored it, and nothing happened

Anonymous Looking Glass September 09, 2017 10:32 AM  

@148 thetroll

Twitter is probably 1/2 bots at this point, so that's the first issue. Second issue is the nature of the interaction. DeadBird is a PR Platform. You can't really communicate, only yell at each other. It's the reason Trump is King of Twitter. It's like the NYC sideway in cyberspace.

The other issue with DeadBird is that the communication style encourages conflict & escalation. Blocking only increases it, actually, because you get an instant "rush" from it, increasing the trolling aspect. Gab's mute function kills most of that pretty well.

If Twitter killed the Bots, it'd prevent the swarming, but it'd also cost them 1/2 of their Ad revenue. That's their major & negative feedback loop.

So, it's not like Gab doesn't ban people. It's the fact they ban Bots that solve a lot of problems.

Blogger tuberman September 09, 2017 10:32 AM  

deplorable wrote:"Sorry, What you say may be true that Xers are cleaning up."

Of course we are. You don't follow on the heels of a generation like the boomers and not have alot to set right.

"But once you start down the path of "old people are all stupid, and betrayed later generations," it will be extended to Xers even more so, there will be no stopping it."

Unlike the boomers. We don't care what they think. There is work to be done and we can't let the toddlers distract us in the process.



You should be taking the smart youth under your wing and be mentoring them, that is what I've done all my life.

Anonymous Tanjil Bren September 09, 2017 10:33 AM  

"I don't think Torba gets what he's doing."

I think I know he doesn't.

He's a publisher (by hook or by crook).

Caveat...

Blogger Ransom Smith September 09, 2017 10:33 AM  


They already did call Torba that on gab to see what would happen.
Torba totally ignored it, and nothing happened

You missed the point. Baseless accusations seem easy to ignore when they don't affect you. But what happens if someone says the same of you and it gets you fired? Or kids taken away?

Anonymous Looking Glass September 09, 2017 10:34 AM  

@151 Ransom Smith
@143 Crew

Correct assessment of the bug in Gab's TOS, not quite the attack vector that would do the most harm. I'll not suggest how to improve it, though.

Blogger tuberman September 09, 2017 10:37 AM  

"We don't care what they think. There is work to be done and we can't let the toddlers distract us in the process."

Not caring what young people think will lead to the waar of everyone against everyone, as has happened in the past when civilizations break apart. Smart youth can be reached, through sports, memes, teaching them to program their games, etc.

Blogger Leandro Novaes September 09, 2017 10:37 AM  

@80 You do understand that this happening within living memory, that most of us followed the case closely, and most of us have working brains able to recall events?

Unlike most midwits that proudly claim "I can barely remember what I ate for lunch!"

This is not what happened, at all.

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) September 09, 2017 10:37 AM  

(((Torba))) and Utsav are fake Americans. They have to go back.

Anonymous Athor Pel September 09, 2017 10:38 AM  

This situation does the same thing as gaining a gut level understanding of hypergamy and the female imperative. It puts light on a previously dark part of reality that most people are otherwise happy to ignore.

If your intellectual and emotional understanding of objective reality is equal to a child's then reality is eventually going to cause you a world of hurt if not destroy you completely.

Blogger SteelPalm September 09, 2017 10:38 AM  

As someone who has corresponded a number of times with Vox by e-mail, the suggestion by Utsav of Vox being persistent/obsessive about it is laughable and preposterous.

Anonymous deplorable September 09, 2017 10:39 AM  

"You should be taking the smart youth under your wing and be mentoring them, that is what I've done all my life."

Very commendable. And I do what I can unlike the boomers. But this new bunch is in need of some... hmmm discipline.

Blogger Lovekraft September 09, 2017 10:41 AM  

@131 Rum Raisin:

With people of limited ability modesty is merely honesty. But with those who possess great talent it is hypocrisy.

and, paraphrasing:

Man will take the greatest measure against the form of suffering to which he will be most liable.

IOW, hide the 'tells' and go through life with a sense of detachment and resignation to the temporality of our lives.

Anonymous johnc September 09, 2017 10:42 AM  

@147 Twitter does remove content based on local laws, and accepts requests from international authorities to remove content. Whether this is legally required of them or just them playing nice, I'm not qualified to say.

But it does appear that they have broadened their Terms of Service to cover most of the legal cases of their major participating countries, so that authorities don't have to use certain channels to suppress illegal content (i.e., hate speech).

Blogger Lovekraft September 09, 2017 10:42 AM  

oops. Forgot to add that these are Schopenhauer pearls.

Blogger S1AL September 09, 2017 10:43 AM  

"Smart youth can be reached, through sports, memes, teaching them to program their games, etc."

Look, gramps, we "smart youth" don't need your help with memes and programming and sports. We've got that handled - probably better than you do. What we do need is for Gen X to give up the individualistic nihilism and get to work fixing things so we're not totally hosed by the time the responsibility falls on us. If that means they have to be disdainful of the generations before and after? Fine by me.

Anonymous deplorable September 09, 2017 10:46 AM  

"If that means they have to be disdainful of the generations before and after? Fine by me."

Good eye.

Blogger tz September 09, 2017 10:46 AM  

Advice is cheap. I do not know what this legal board infrastructure Vox is suggesting will cost to set up or maintain, but an offer to invest in the company and pay for it (and maybe run it) would be better than telling them how to run their business and how to spend their and the investors money, sometimes in an arrogant, aggressive and condescending manner.

Consider if someone had even good advice about how to run infogalactic better. How could he present it to Vox so he would listen? And if they persisted and became a nuisance and started name calling? Would they be more or less likely to get through?

Diplomacy can work where aggressive attack fails. But they cannot coexist.

Blogger Ransom Smith September 09, 2017 10:47 AM  

Correct assessment of the bug in Gab's TOS, not quite the attack vector that would do the most harm. I'll not suggest how to improve it, though.
That's the whole issue with Torba's nearly blind dedication to "free speech". In the day and age of photoshop, an allegation and some well crafted fake images can do incredible damage.

Blogger Bodo Staron September 09, 2017 10:50 AM  

It seems what you want Gab to do is what the heavily criticized German "Netzwerkdurchsetzungsgesetz" (yeah it's a real word) forces companies to do. They now have to delete illegal content, "illegal content" (whatever that is exactly, possibly slander too) within 24 hours to a week. Facebook already hired 500 more "censors" or moderators for this purpose. If companies to not comply they face a fine of up to 50 Million Euros. The new law was criticized because it basically moved the decision making to the companies. And they often take the easy route. Rather than going to court, getting a ruling, the social media companies now delete. A lot.

I think Torba and the rest of the Gab guys reacted badly. But, what they demand, going through a legal process seem like the correct course of action.

Because the German way will lead to a Chinese style Internet.

Blogger Markku September 09, 2017 10:53 AM  

SteelPalm wrote:As someone who has corresponded a number of times with Vox by e-mail, the suggestion by Utsav of Vox being persistent/obsessive about it is laughable and preposterous.

Yeah, Vox emails you when something occurs to him. This time several individual thoughts occurred to him at different times. He almost certainly expected them to be read when Gab happened to have some time, just like it was a single email. After all, any modern email service puts them in a thread. They appear to have taken it as if Vox is demanding six immediate answers from them. No, he expected them to ignore the emails while they're busy, then when they have time to read the thread, and then respond just like it was just one long email.

Anonymous Rum Raisin September 09, 2017 10:54 AM  

Considering the occasional foray we've seen into Christian Theology by some of the Stormpoopers, these people can't even handle Cause & Effect very well. They've got no ability to understand what Sigma looks like.

Sigma is hard for most of us to understand, but with some effort, those who are committed to truth can at least accept it exists.

There's a slim - < 1% chance - that some of the Stormpoopers do understand and are here just to spread lies and demoralize Vox's readers. But I think you are right. It's much more likely that they're simply morons who follow the SOP of shameless lying to push the narrative.

Blogger maniacprovost September 09, 2017 10:54 AM  

We're gonna run out of alphabet numbers pretty soon.

Geez man

Once we win a eugenic policy will mean that

Eugenics policies are easy to implement, because the really stupid people think they're not the targets.

Blogger S1AL September 09, 2017 10:56 AM  

The whole email thing strikes me as odd. Even in my minimally-involved corporate environment, I often get 4+ emails from my boss at once, on different topics, to be read "when available". In personal communications I don't use email much, but a batch of texts or PM's across a few hours? Very common.

Blogger Demonic Professor El September 09, 2017 10:56 AM  

Not having guidelines on defamation (which is actually illegal, as in against the law) will lead to many inevitabilities, one of which is SJW infiltration.

And there goes Gab. They still have time to fix things. However, it looks like their free speech absolutism (which is admirable, mostly), will bite them in the end.

Anonymous Ashes September 09, 2017 11:00 AM  

As I mentioned last night this may be a convenient attempt to wash their hands of you. I suspected the attacks from Anglin ended too quickly and Torba forgot them all too soon; I wonder what sort of deal they struck?

Blogger Demonic Professor El September 09, 2017 11:01 AM  

@170 Bodo Staron

While this is a slippery-slope danger, most countries' defamation laws are pretty clear - publishing/saying lies in order to harm a person and/or their livelihood.

Not punishing libel is actually how the Left won so many battles. For example, Brendan Eich could easily have gone for defamation charges, but he didn't. He should have.

Blogger Cail Corishev September 09, 2017 11:05 AM  

attacking people as enemies when they are concerned allies, is stupid.

This is part of why concern trolling is a standard tactic. With obvious trolls repeatedly pretending to be concerned allies, there's no way to tell the honestly concerened ally from the herd. If you're honestly a concerned ally, there's not much you can do about that. Maybe say your piece once, but if you repeat it, you will look like a concern troll. Or send Vox a private email, if you're enough of an ally that he would recognize you. But trying to out-shout the concern trolls with your honest concerns just won't work.

Blogger Leandro Novaes September 09, 2017 11:05 AM  

@152 That only means that they pushed the wrong button.

Blogger ZhukovG September 09, 2017 11:06 AM  

All the hand wringing aside, Vox appears to be simply trying to put out a small fire before it grow larger. Unfortunately it appears that Mr. Torba's approach to fire fighting involves a 5 gallon can of gasoline.

Blogger BunE22 September 09, 2017 11:07 AM  

"Not having guidelines on defamation will lead to many inevitabilities, one of which is SJW infiltration."

And setting up a team to police Gab posts won't lead to SJW infiltration? Maybe Gab just needs a Code of Conduct, eh? That is what this whole thing smells like.

Blogger Cail Corishev September 09, 2017 11:08 AM  

No, he expected them to ignore the emails while they're busy,

Like normal people who get a fair amount of email. If you stop and address every email the moment you get it, you can't be very busy.

Blogger tuberman September 09, 2017 11:09 AM  

S1AL wrote:"Smart youth can be reached, through sports, memes, teaching them to program their games, etc."

Look, gramps, we "smart youth" don't need your help with memes and programming and sports. We've got that handled - probably better than you do. What we do need is for Gen X to give up the individualistic nihilism and get to work fixing things so we're not totally hosed by the time the responsibility falls on us. If that means they have to be disdainful of the generations before and after? Fine by me.


Don't worry about it. I'm indifferent to my generation. I just want to see Christian Western Civilization be revitalized. I am good at math and science and reached very good levels as a semi-jock in sports and simply passed it on to middle school and high school students. I did teach chess to college students as I was a pro level. Otherwise, your boomer insults are meaningless to me personally, as I am what I am, and I have nothing to answer for.

I expect you will take part of what I said out of context, and misrepresent it like a SJW. Whatever, just get Western Civilization on track.

Anonymous Tanjil Bren September 09, 2017 11:09 AM  

"I think Torba and the rest of the Gab guys reacted badly. But, what they demand, going through a legal process seem like the correct course of action."

Sorry, but they're very clearly total neophytes.

*None* of this is new.

We pamphleteers are almost as old as the Western printing press.

What's new is the reach and the speed of dissemination (thanks Mister Internet).

Vox is doing them a *huge* favor, not to mention providing a very gentle lesson they'd do well to heed.

Because the next time they may well be facing serious litigation.

No internet publisher's (with even the sniff of a few dollars behind them) comment section goes unmoderated, and there's a *very good* reason why.

So, stop shooting the messenger.

Blogger S1AL September 09, 2017 11:13 AM  

@tuberman -

Didn't say anything about Boomers, didn't need to.

What you said originally was this: "Not caring what young people think will lead to the waar of everyone against everyone, as has happened in the past when civilizations break apart."

That's not only historically fallacious (I can't think of a single instance of collapse that split on generational lines, much less "everyone against everyone"), it's not the point. Gen X doesn't care what Millennials think? That's fine. It doesn't matter, as long as they do what's needed.

Blogger Leandro Novaes September 09, 2017 11:14 AM  

Demonic Professor El wrote:@170 Bodo Staron

While this is a slippery-slope danger, most countries' defamation laws are pretty clear - publishing/saying lies in order to harm a person and/or their livelihood.

Not punishing libel is actually how the Left won so many battles. For example, Brendan Eich could easily have gone for defamation charges, but he didn't. He should have.


So suggests Milo in his book. That any mild libel is swiftly dealt with.

Blogger Bodo Staron September 09, 2017 11:15 AM  

Demonic Professor El wrote:@170 Bodo Staron

While this is a slippery-slope danger, most countries' defamation laws are pretty clear - publishing/saying lies in order to harm a person and/or their livelihood.

Not punishing libel is actually how the Left won so many battles. For example, Brendan Eich could easily have gone for defamation charges, but he didn't. He should have.


The German law and it's implications are so bad, it received a reply from the UN's David Kaye
"Special Rapporteur on the promotion and protection of the right to freedom of opinion and expression"

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Opinion/Legislation/OL-DEU-1-2017.pdf

No one denies the personal right of someone going after libel. The question is, should a company be forced upon request by one individual to remove something? How would they know? Should these companies be put in a position to decide? Think about cases that are not so clear. Think about SJW screeching.

Since Vox always has a plan (or ten) I'm curious to where this leads. Or did he (un)intentionally open a can of worms that could potentially wreck a lot of the social media companies?

Blogger Ransom Smith September 09, 2017 11:21 AM  

And setting up a team to police Gab posts won't lead to SJW infiltration? Maybe Gab just needs a Code of Conduct, eh? That is what this whole thing smells like.
False equivalency is false equivalency.
There's a major difference between a CoC projecting and a change to the ToS that reviews defamatory posts.

Blogger tuberman September 09, 2017 11:24 AM  

S1AL wrote:@tuberman -

Didn't say anything about Boomers, didn't need to.

What you said originally was this: "Not caring what young people think will lead to the waar of everyone against everyone, as has happened in the past when civilizations break apart."

That's not only historically fallacious (I can't think of a single instance of collapse that split on generational lines, much less "everyone against everyone"), it's not the point. Gen X doesn't care what Millennials think? That's fine. It doesn't matter, as long as they do what's needed.


Giambattista Vico said that "the war of everyone against everyone," was the major factor in the break up of Rome, in his book, "The New Science of History," published in 1725. He was a serious Italian, Latin poet with a lifetime study of Rome.



Blogger tuberman September 09, 2017 11:34 AM  

In anthropology back when they were real scholars, they discovered that when societies break up internally, severe fissures happen along all lines including generational lines. The Navajos were a great example of this as nearly everyone hated everyone in that tribe in the late 1800s. They use witch accusations to kill whoever they wanted. Pretty much like today. The tribe was failing and falling apart, internally.

Anonymous Kel September 09, 2017 11:36 AM  

If Gab is made to care about the content of user posts because they are "illegal", then Gab will be forced to remove all Holocaust-questioning posts from its operations in Germany (since that is illegal there). It will be forced to remove anti-Islamic posts from Britain since that is illegal there. And it will soon, in America, be forced to remove anti-homosexual posts as well, because that will be illegal here as well.

It's not Gab that's converged. It's the Western countries and their political leadership. They make Alt-Right speech illegal. So I think what Gab is trying to do is to ignore the failure Twitter made by deleting posts and users in order to avoid this various illegality (and to be fair, Twitter went much farther than that because they are converged as well). Gab wants to sidestep the illegality of various posts.

If that cannot happen, then yes, they will be made to take down libelous posts. But don't kid yourself: they will also be made to take down all other posts that the converged Western governments do not want.

I'm not sure there is a solution to this because if Gab were to successfully replace Twitter, it would be subject to the same forces that are destroying Twitter: the various laws in the West that make Alt-Right speech illegal. And I don't think that any company's terms of service are going to protect it from Germany or Britain who tell that company to remove a post or they will face much more legal jeopardy than a libel suit.

Blogger S1AL September 09, 2017 11:37 AM  

"Giambattista Vico said that "the war of everyone against everyone," was the major factor in the break up of Rome, in his book, "The New Science of History," published in 1725. He was a serious Italian, Latin poet with a lifetime study of Rome."

He can call it whatever he wants, it's still wrong. Rome split in two long before it fell. When Western dissolution happened, it was a largely peaceful fracturing along local lines. In the East, it was defeat at the hands of the Muslims, a thousand years later.

"Everyone against everyone" never happens because the first side to pick up allies wins.

Blogger JaimeInTexas September 09, 2017 11:39 AM  

"Better that a friend wound you than the kids of an enemy"

Gab better learn the above. The tech landscape is littered with the converged ruins.

Blogger JaimeInTexas September 09, 2017 11:40 AM  

Or?

Gab better learn the above. The tech landscape is littered with the ruins converged.

Anonymous Tanjil Bren September 09, 2017 11:50 AM  

"The question is, should a company be forced upon request by one individual to remove something? How would they know? Should these companies be put in a position to decide? Think about cases that are not so clear. Think about SJW screeching."

That horse has bolted. A very long time ago.

Ignore? Stand on principle? All totally fine.

No one is 'forcing' anyone to do anything.

You take your risk that a big fat law suit may not be where you're headed.

And that's all fine too, just as long as you understand that's what's at stake.

It's a crap shoot like that.

It's just not good form to whine about it.

Blogger tuberman September 09, 2017 11:52 AM  

People in some areas are left alone to deteriorate, and the Navajos, and "The Mountain People" in Africa are just two of many examples of such deterioration. When that disillusion happens no one gets along internally. There is no scientific way to prove the absolute truth of anything, but internal decomposition along all line when societies are falling is the best bet. Outside forces, can obviously intervene, but then that does not renew or revitalize the original culture.

What are you doing to deconstruct the Nihilism? What are you doing to renew Western Civilization?

Blogger S1AL September 09, 2017 12:07 PM  

"What are you doing to deconstruct the Nihilism? What are you doing to renew Western Civilization?"

You mean besides being married, having children, and fulfilling my responsibilities as a citizen?

I have daily conversations with people about the issues of the day. Sometimes I convince them of issues. I've already flipped a couple of people in major political stances. What are you doing?

Blogger DeploraBard September 09, 2017 12:11 PM  

lyovmyshkin wrote:@51 @52

As usual the same odd hero worship. This place should be studied. Zero reflection, zero ability to take on critical ideas.

Simply 'The Glorious Leader is right in all ways and isn't even being harsh enough.'

Best Korea levels of delusion.


It is not hero worship. It is the benefit of doubt and the maturity to withhold an emotional outburst until this comes into focus.

Blogger Daniel September 09, 2017 12:21 PM  

BORING AF

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