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Thursday, September 28, 2017

Catalonian update

Spain is pulling out all the stops to shut down the Catalonian vote on independence. To save democracy, one presumes.
CATALONIA REFERENDUM LATEST: Madrid pulls out all the stops to block independence vote

SPAIN has launched an all-out assault on the Catalan government with Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, the prosecutor’s office and the judiciary all making moves to block a binding referendum on independence on October 1.

An unprecedented combination of legal action, police deployments and economic sanctions are disrupting the effort to hold the vote which has been declared illegal by Spain’s Constitutional Court.

Police have been sent to hunt down ballot papers and materials related to the referendum, while media organisations have been warned not to broadcast official Catalan campaign advertisements related to the vote. More than a hundred websites related to the referendum have already been shut down by the authorities.

Madrid has also essentially taken over the regional executive’s finances to ensure that “not a single euro” is spent on the ballot. Banks have been ordered not to allow money transfers from Catalan government accounts without Madrid’s consent.

Catalonia’s High Court is investigating the entire Catalan Cabinet led by regional President Carles Puigdemont — as well as five regional lawmakers — on charges of disobedience, prevarication, and misuse of public funds.
Sounds legit. Clearly Madrid has the moral high ground here. After all, the Constitutional Court has spoken!

 Remember when the USA went to war so that purple-fingered Iraqis could vote? Why, I'm starting to wonder if the neo-liberal world order is not actually founded on the principles of self-determination and democracy after all!

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70 Comments:

Blogger Shimshon September 28, 2017 5:29 AM  

I thought the War on Drugs was bad. Now we have an actual War on Voting.

Blogger Lazarus September 28, 2017 5:59 AM  

Spain has declared Martial Law more than once in the last 100 years, and enacted "gag laws" in 2015 that instituted heavy fines for unauthorized protest or photographing police.

https://www.thelocal.es/20150701/the-ten-most-repressive-aspects-of-spains-new-gag-law

They are not big on civil rights.

Blogger Sherwood family September 28, 2017 6:00 AM  

The Spanish government can ignite Spanish Civil War: Electric Boogaloo or they can back off and let the chips fall where they may. It is possible the secessionists may not win. But these kinds of actions undermine government legitimacy and show that, at least in Spain, the government's vision of the future is a boot stamping on a Catalonian face - forever.

Blogger szopen September 28, 2017 6:05 AM  

Glad we now know that Serbian were right saying that Kosovo independence has no legal basis and violates international law.

Anonymous Ages September 28, 2017 6:08 AM  

Wow, Spain sure is making Catalonia feel like staying is the right course! Good job!

If I were Trump, I would have called out the Spanish PM in person.

Blogger Desdichado September 28, 2017 6:11 AM  

Of course, why don't the Spanish just go in and conquer the Catalonians and loot their country of anything of value and leave them a broken and subjugated race of serfs who's history, culture and very existence will be a hiss and a byword? The hagiographies of Abraham Lincoln suggest that they'll be seen as heroes after the fact.

Anonymous Ages September 28, 2017 6:11 AM  

Remember when the USA went to war so that purple-fingered Iraqis could vote? Why, I'm starting to wonder if the neo-liberal world order is not actually founded on the principles of self-determination and democracy after all!

>Give Kurds the right to vote
>They vote for independence
>"Umm...we don't want you doing that!"

Blogger Sherwood family September 28, 2017 6:14 AM  

Szopen: those are the choices: either the Serbs were right and under international law Kosovo should never have been allowed to happen or the Kosovars are correct and the same principle holds of Catalonia. The fact that the U.S. violated international law and precedent to create Kosovo has not been lost on others. The Russians are happily using it in Georgia, Ukraine, Moldova and likely elsewhere. But the more important question is this: does a nation have a right to determine its own future or not? If it does then it can make such arrangements as seem good to it. If it does not then freedom as such is only at the whim or will of whoever is the most powerful. The neo-liberal world order cannot have it both ways.

Anonymous Ages September 28, 2017 6:14 AM  

The hagiographies of Abraham Lincoln suggest that they'll be seen as heroes after the fact.

Indeed. Literally the worst president, who changed the country fundamentally and set the stage for all the bad ones that followed.

We had incompetent presidents before, but it didn't really matter to the man on the street. Lincoln made the presidency into the elected despotism that it has largely become.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera September 28, 2017 6:16 AM  

Why, I'm starting to wonder if the neo-liberal world order is not actually founded on the principles of self-determination and democracy after all!

What principles would you say it's founded on?

Blogger szopen September 28, 2017 6:30 AM  

Sherwood family wrote:Szopen: those are the choices: either the Serbs were right and under international law Kosovo should never have been allowed to happen or the Kosovars are correct and the same principle holds of Catalonia.

Exactly. That was my intention, and if my post can be read be other way, it is only a testimony to my poor English abilities.

Kosovo for me, personally, was a very huge milestone. I was writing to our PM and Foreign Affairs Minister asking them not to recognize Kosovo. I then almost cried from frustration and anger when Poland, nevertheless, recognised Kosovo's independence. I was surprised by the intensity of my feelings and I think it was about this time, nine years ago when I ceased to think about myself as "moderate right".

Blogger szopen September 28, 2017 6:32 AM  

@11
I read my own comment and I realised that it may sound hilarious ("i write a letter to PM and he ignored it!"). I had not meant that I thought my letter would change anything; I mean I felt totally ignored, angry, frustrated, unable to do anything.

Kosovo je Srbija.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 28, 2017 6:33 AM  

I'd venture that Envy, Greed, Atheism and Lies (redundant?) are the actual principles. Satanism or a crypto-version of it probably factors in too.

Blogger VD September 28, 2017 6:52 AM  

What principles would you say it's founded on?

As far as I can tell, protecting usury.

Blogger Resident Moron™ September 28, 2017 7:00 AM  

Kinda sorta not really OT:

https://twitter.com/DogDuffy/status/913254448796798977

Anonymous Yann September 28, 2017 7:02 AM  

After all, the Constitutional Court has spoken

The Spanish Constitutional Court is not exactly a serious professional institution.

As an example, according to the Constitution, any judge from the Constitutional Court has some incompatibilities, including incompatibilities from standard judges. And no standard judge in Spain can belong to a political party.

Well, the former PRESIDENT of the Spanish Constitutional Court, Pérez de los Cóbos ,
(https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Pérez_de_los_Cobos)
belonged to the Spanish Right-Wing party.

What happened with it?... nothing. The Constitutional Court said that it was OK because he was just a base member, so no problem here, even when the law says clearly that no judge can belong to any political party, but who cares?

Blogger szopen September 28, 2017 7:35 AM  

@16 "The Constitutional Court said that it was OK because he was just a base member, so no problem here, even when the law says clearly that no judge can belong to any political party, "

I think this is the main problem with the "rule of the law" in modern western countries - this is actually more and more "rule of the judges" who start not just to interpret the law, but actually create new laws by new interpretations. It's same here, where anyone with half a brain can read a constitution and then some judges will interpret it stating that "no, it is not actually written what you think is written there, because according to legal tradition the meaning is different"

Anonymous Yann September 28, 2017 7:51 AM  

#17

Exactly. Courts are becoming political tools, and that's a very dangerous thing.

In the Basque Country, a newspaper (the Egunkaria) was closed without a single piece of evidence. It was said that it was part of ETA, and police investigated for months without finding anything. And then it was closed. It was like a Marx Brothers movie, but with very serious consequences. Imagine all the Russian related stories about Trump, where they have found nothing after months, but then you have Trump in jail because the judges say it's all real... even when there's not a bloody piece of evidence.

Blogger Sillon Bono September 28, 2017 8:14 AM  

I read a long time ago that the perception that we have of another country is similar to the perception insects walking at the top of a pond, they think they can see the bottom, but in reality they have no idea that what they see is a distorted image and have no appreciation of how depth the bottom is from the surface.

I'm guessing it is a version of the The Murray Gell-Mann Amnesia effect, and it seems even the best are not inmune.

Blogger J.M. September 28, 2017 8:23 AM  

Well, I guess the Spanish government should break its own laws (which forbid an independentist referendum), fold to the separatist demands and grant independence (as well as funds for the new "State"),only then people like Yann and company can be happy and freedom of choice honored.../sarc

The point that no one here seems to understand is that if the separatists were acting in good faith, they would have asked for a change of the constitution for starters, instead of trying to force a referendum not once but multiple times and that normally a good cause doesn't need massive brainwashing to come to fruition. But with the traitors in Madrid none of you should feel sad, Catalonia will be
"independent" (read tethered to the EU); contrary to what paranoids in the blog and elsewhere have said Madrid has done everything it can to ensure this outcome.

Blogger Sherwood family September 28, 2017 8:27 AM  

Szopen, you're absolutely correct. And there is nothing wrong with writing the PM and Min. of Foreign Affairs. At least you did something. Most people, including me, were clueless about what was happening. We gift wrapped a perfect opportunity for others to do the same and create frozen conflicts and territorial enclaves of uncertain future all over the place. Americans would be outraged if the Chinese came in and with a little effort recognized parts of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California as "Aztlan" and then dropped troops in to keep angry Americans from taking the territory back. We'd go crazy. That's what we did to the Serbians. Outside entities should not have been involved in Kosovo one way or the other. And outside entities should not be involved with Catalonia.

Blogger FALPhil September 28, 2017 8:29 AM  

@3 Sherwood Family wrote:
The Spanish government can ignite Spanish Civil War: Electric Boogaloo or they can back off and let the chips fall where they may.

It won't ignite a civil war; it will be a war of secession. The two are distinctly different by definition, goals, and conduct.

But whether or not war is ignited remains in the hands of the Spanish military. Should the military decide to engage on the side of the central government, Cataluña would be foolish to pursue it. If the military remains neutral, Cataluña may have a chance. I don't hold out a lot of hope for the latter.

Another scenario, in the spirit of 4GW would be a slow, protracted campaign of sabotage and civil unrest, with the ultimate goal of making the central government to want to give in. Of course, under this scenario, the resistance would be labeled terrorists, and a number of false flag operations by the central government would steal legitimacy from Cataluña.

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar September 28, 2017 8:35 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar September 28, 2017 8:35 AM  

VD, your stance on this issue demonstrates the total inconsistency of many of the tennets of your ideology. And I do know what your ideology is, because I was the one who translated the 16 points into Spanish.

1. You declare that you "support all nationalisms", ignoring that many nationalisms have overlapping (and incompatible) aspirations. Catalan nationalism and its claim to self-determination do not exist in a vaccuum; they exist in opposition to Spanish nationalism and its claim to self-determination.

When you support Catalan nationalism, you invalidate Spanish nationalism, and viceversa. Therefore, you're not acting upon a set of principles, but simply taking a side. And obviously, you're being influenced by your American thought patterns, whereby "muh secessión" == "awesome", and opposition to secession == "tyranny". So, here you are, addressing a matter that clearly escapes you and your knowledge of Spain, and interpreting it through this simplistic binary vision.

2. By all legal standards, last August 7th the Catalan regional government (which is a part of the Spanish State) performed a coup d'état by declaring the Spanish Constitution void in Catalonia and approving a "transitory law" whereby a referendum will be celebrated and, depending on the result, the Parliament shall declare independence. Both the referendum and, obviously, secession, are illegal according to Spanish law, as they contradict the constitutional principle of ONE SOLE NATIONAL SOVEREIGNTY in Spain. This trait is shared by all constitutions in the world, including that of your host nation, Italy.

Now, you may agree with Catalan secessionism, and you may even support a violent rebellion against the Spanish State, but you may not, if you wish to remain intellectually honest, expect the Spanish State to willingly dismantle itself, and polititians in Madrid to unilerally abolish the Spanish Constitution after reaching some sort of mafia-esque deal with the Catalan regional government behind the back of the Spanish people. And, above all, you cannot possibly say that that would be the democratic thing to do.

In other words, you may defend Catalan separatism in the name of the people's "will to power", or "popular self-determination", but not in the name of Democracy, understanding Democracy as a political system where no citizen is above the law, including -and especially- the executive branch of government.



One thing has to be recognized, though, and that is the way the Catalan separatists have masterfully weaponized modern-day worship of "democracy" understood as abstract "popular will". Ironically, by forcing the celebration of this referendum against the consent of the Spanish State they have already, in fact, declared independence. They're already acting as if the Spanish Constitution does not apply in Catalonia; the referendum is only a propaganda tool to gain moral high-ground before the rest of the world. VD, of course, is beautifully falling pray of their propaganda.

Anonymous Avalanche September 28, 2017 8:41 AM  

"Clearly Madrid has the moral high ground here"

Hey! Maybe all the "Dreamers" should move there!! They'd probably feel right at home! (Well except for those who speak mexican, which ain't quite spanish!)

(I remember a far right friend once saying he was tempted to learn to speak High Castilian Spanish, so he could use it on our invaders...)

Anonymous Avalanche September 28, 2017 8:48 AM  

@9 Good / interesting essay on Lincoln. Published in The Journal of Historical Review back in 1986:

http://sam-dickson.com/AbrahamLincoln.htm

From which:

...
The official image of Lincoln the man according to the Lincoln Myth runs as follows: a man of upright character and honesty, a man of peace and compassion for his Southern adversaries, and a Christian of sincere religious convictions.

All of the above articles of faith are demonstrably false.
...

Anonymous DissidentRight September 28, 2017 8:54 AM  

When you support Catalan nationalism, you invalidate Spanish nationalism, and viceversa. 

That’s an indefensible claim. Spanish nationalism does not entail the right to rule over Catalonians any more than Yankee nationalism entails the right to rule over Southeners.

Both the referendum and, obviously, secession, are illegal according to Spanish law, as they contradict the constitutional principle of ONE SOLE NATIONAL SOVEREIGNTY in Spain

1. If Catalonians have exactly the same national interests as the rest of the Spanish, why do they want to secede?
2. Legality is obviously not the basis of morality. Slavery was legal. Abortion IS legal.

They're already acting as if the Spanish Constitution does not apply in Catalonia

If Constitutions and laws override national sovereignty, then the Imperialists are always right. That means, among other things, that blacks should still be slaves and the Indians should still be subjects of the British Crown.

Blogger Aeoli Pera September 28, 2017 8:55 AM  

VD wrote:What principles would you say it's founded on?

As far as I can tell, protecting usury.


That left a mark :^).

Anonymous Avalanche September 28, 2017 8:55 AM  

@20 "fold to the separatist demands and grant independence"

Would have avoided the AMERICAN Civil War, wouldn't it? AND secession was even IN out laws! (Oh hey look! We're back to that burn-in-hell Abraham Lincoln!)

Blogger J.M. September 28, 2017 9:14 AM  

DissidentRight wrote:That’s an indefensible claim. Spanish nationalism does not entail the right to rule over Catalonians any more than Yankee nationalism entails the right to rule over Southeners.

And you ask why many of you are called ignorant. One of the main claims of the Catalonian nationalism is that Spain is an artificial construct with no inherent right to exist, hence independence is the way (according to this narrative). And this is the concept hammered into the heads of most Kids in Catalonia (along with "Spain robs us and the rest of the Spiel).

Anonymous Yann September 28, 2017 9:14 AM  

Catalan nationalism and its claim to self-determination do not exist in a vaccuum; they exist in opposition to Spanish nationalism and its claim to self-determination.

Nationalism is not something that you impose. You can declare Spanish nationalism and say that it includes Catalonia, but if people from Catalonia don't want to belong to Spain, there's not such overlapping: Catalonia is just NOT part of Spain (as a nation).

You can talk about an "American nation" that includes everybody living in US, but if whites join whites, latinos join latinos, and blacks join blacks, you don't have nations overlapping. You just have three DIFFERENT nations.

By all legal standards, last August 7th the Catalan regional government (which is a part of the Spanish State) performed a coup d'état by declaring the Spanish Constitution void in Catalonia and approving a "transitory law"

No.

You can call it secession. You can call it illegal. But labeling Catalonia trying to vote if they want to be independent as a "coup d'état" is just a bad joke. The Spanish government has not being overthrown or even threatened. And it's about some "small group", it's about the majority of Catalan people.

In other words, you may defend Catalan separatism in the name of the people's "will to power", or "popular self-determination", but not in the name of Democracy, understanding Democracy as a political system where no citizen is above the law, including -and especially- the executive branch of government.

Democracy and laws are two different issues. You can have democracy without laws, as happens in any group of people self-organizing, and you can have laws without democracy, as happens in any tyranny.

When it comes to Catalonia, both parts have arguments to defend they're democratic. Spain says that any resolution about any part of Spain should be voted by the whole country, while Catalonia says that the independence of the Catalan nation must be voted only by the members of that nation (or at least by people who live there).

Both parts are democratic. It's just that one of them think that existing nations have priority when voting about the future of that nation in the country, while the other think that existing political states have priority when voting about the future of any nation in that state.

With regard to the law, Catalonia don't say in any moment that citizens are above the law. What they say is that the rights of Catalonia as a nation are above the Spanish law. So if the Spanish law prevents Catalonia from becoming independent, that law is not recognized. It's not about people being above the law, it's about the law not being recognized as legitimate and valid.

Anonymous Überdeplorable Psychedelic Cat Grass September 28, 2017 9:22 AM  

I love Castilian Spanish, absolutely beautiful. As my closest friend from Spain said, "Spain without monarchy is chaos."

I say it's long past due for Felipe to invoke the parts of the Constitution that says he has the final say.

If Cataluña has a right to self determination, then those folks in the Aran Valley have right to self determine right back in to Madrid's orbit.

May the nazionalistas' dreams be crushed!

I personally think Spain would be better long term as a monarchy (sans the constitutional part). What do I know though. I'm just a dumb güiri.

Having said that, maybe they'll let the referendum go on Oct. 1st and pull an ETA: stuff the ballot boxes.

Blogger GraceIronwood September 28, 2017 9:28 AM  

Slightly OT.
Trump was insulated from having responsibility for Nightmare Moore's election and having to "Disavow" a flexible and ever -lengthening list of Moore's outrages to humanity.

Meanwhile Trump's man wins.

Good work.

Blogger Lazarus September 28, 2017 9:41 AM  

Alvin von Diaspar wrote:VD, your stance on this issue demonstrates the total inconsistency of many of the tennets of your ideology.

All I have heard him say is that the neo-liberal rhetoric of democracy and self-determination is alot of hot air.

If the Spanich and Catalonians are people, then MPAI also means MSAI and MCAI.

Blogger FALPhil September 28, 2017 9:43 AM  

@30 J.M. wrote:
And you ask why many of you are called ignorant. One of the main claims of the Catalonian nationalism is that Spain is an artificial construct with no inherent right to exist, hence independence is the way (according to this narrative).

OK. Call me ignorant. Just how is the claim that Spain is an artificial construct (in the context of the current political entity) incompatible with the fact that "Spanish nationalism does not entail the right for Spain to rule over Catalonians"?

There is a leap in logic here that I am not understanding.

Anonymous Yann September 28, 2017 9:48 AM  

If Cataluña has a right to self determination, then those folks in the Aran Valley have right to self determine right back in to Madrid's orbit.

Aran Valley are indeed Occitan, which is like the French-Catalonia (you have a Catalonia-equivalente area in France, the same you have a French Basque Country). It's not sure that they wanna join Catalonia. But that doesn't mean they wanna stay in Spain neither. If you ask them, probably they would prefer to ask Andorra about join them (Andorra and Aran are side by side and share a similar Occitan culture). But when Spanish people defend the freedom of Aran Valley, that "freedom" is just about not joining Catalonia, and nothing more. The "freedom" ends there.

Blogger Unknown September 28, 2017 10:10 AM  

The legitimate power of government comes only from the consent of those governed.

Thus, Spain's government is using its powers in an illegitimate fashion, and is calling its own legitimacy into question.

Blogger James September 28, 2017 10:14 AM  

Secession, like revolution, is always technically illegal, so whoever goes that route must be prepared to deal with doing something illegal. In my estimation, illegal does not automatically equal criminal, so when I say illegal I do not necessarily mean bad. So, to cut to my point, the real important issue in all secessions and revolutions is, why the hell should any of the rest of us support it in the particular case? The French helped the American colonies for their own purposes, and when the partnership of convenience was no longer convenient, it petered out. My general inclinination would be to at least have sympathy for an independence movement, but, the problem with Catatonia is, everything I've heard about them lately makes me think they really suck, and stink on dry ice, and don't deserve anything good to happen to them. One thing good about this though is that the lie of "democracy" is exposed for the asinine idea that it is.

Anonymous lurker September 28, 2017 10:16 AM  

"Nationalism is not something that you impose."

Exactly. That was one of the most ignorant screeds rife with errors I have ever read. If Alvin von Diaspar mentality is representative of the Spanish people they have big problems.

Anonymous c matt September 28, 2017 10:43 AM  

This trait [illegality of secession] is shared by all constitutions in the world

Not exactly accurate. The US Constitution is silent on the issue. The 10th Amendment reserves all powers not explicitly enumerated in the Constitution to the individual states, or to the people. Ergo, secession is reserved to the individual state or the people. Of course, in reality, there is no such thing as a Constitution - there is only power, and those who wield it.

Blogger Chent September 28, 2017 10:45 AM  

(As you know, I am Catalan) I think debate is useless. The secessionists have won the war of propaganda. And people speak about the Catalan problem without knowing anything except from some secessionist propaganda.

But I want to do some predictions only to say "I told you so":

1. Lots of unrest and riots and demonstrations and mess for the following weeks.

2. Next Sunday, there won't be a referendum with binding results. There will be some ballot boxes and some ballots. Some in the streets, some in the designated voting centers. The Spanish police and Civil Guard will try to prevent that. The Catalan police (mossos d'esquadra) will try to allow it, while pretending that it is going against it and respecting legality.

3. Without census, without Supreme Electoral Court, without any kind of neutrality, with the Catalan government being judge and jury, the referendum won't be binding. The referendum is illegal according to the Spanish legality. There will be no Catalan legality beyond some declarations made as a show for the gallery.

4. The vast majority of votes will be in favor of the secession (because people against of the secession won't vote in an illegal referendum).

5. The Catalan government will announce victory. With a high degree of probability, the Catalan government will proclaim independence from Spain (DUI - declaració unilateral d'independència - unilateral declaration of independence).

6. No country will recognize Catalonia as a new State. Without control over its own territory, the Declaration of Independence will be a show for the gallery (the Catalan government knows that: everything is for the show).

7. It is likely that the Spanish government suspends the powers of the Catalan government (article 155 of the Spanish constitution).

8. Do I have said there will be lots of unrest?. So there will be

9. It is likely that there will be new regional elections some months from now. If the article 155 is applied, they will be organized by the Spanish government. Otherwise, they will be organized by the Catalan government. They will be organized inside Spanish legality and not in an independent Catalonia, which won't exist.

10. Six months or one year from now, things will have returned to normality. It is likely that there will be negotiations about a new fiscal treatment to Catalonia. So this will end up giving more money to the corrupt Catalan government, which has used the smokescreen of the independence to hide its corruption scandals.

11. 6 months or one year from now, you will be discussing about Trump, about the last SJW attack and so on and so forth. You won't remember about Catalonia. I will keep on watching the Catalan political situation on a daily basis, like I have said for the last 30 years.

I will save the link of these comment. I want to feel the pleasure to say "I told you so"

TL;DR Much ado about nothing.

Anonymous c matt September 28, 2017 10:49 AM  

Spain says that any resolution about any part of Spain should be voted by the whole country, while Catalonia says that the independence of the Catalan nation must be voted only by the members of that nation

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) September 28, 2017 10:51 AM  

24. Alvin von Diaspar September 28, 2017 8:35 AM
VD, your stance on this issue



perhaps i've missed it, but i don't recall ever seeing Vox actually state HIS stance on the question of Catalonian independence.

perhaps you'd like to provide the quote where he does so?

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 28, 2017 11:22 AM  

@TheGuyWithANicknameSoInsanelyLongThatItIsIrremediablyUnwieldy: Looks like this is the initial stance of VD on the matter.

"There is an air of unreality surrounding the entire affair. But really, if the Catalans genuinely want independence, why should they not have it? The Spanish government doesn't appear to understand that it is calling its own democratic legitimacy into question."

Source: http://voxday.blogspot.com.es/2017/09/self-determination-in-spain.html

@Chent: Agree very much with you

@Yann: Continue with the fiction writing, please.

Blogger Lazarus September 28, 2017 11:34 AM  

@Chent

So Catalonians are shit-testing Madrid like bitches so they can get more stuff.

I can buy that.

Anonymous DissidentRight September 28, 2017 12:03 PM  

J.M. wrote:And you ask why many of you are called ignorant. One of the main claims of the Catalonian nationalism is that Spain is an artificial construct with no inherent right to exist, hence independence is the way (according to this narrative). And this is the concept hammered into the heads of most Kids in Catalonia (along with "Spain robs us and the rest of the Spiel).


So? The right of secession isn’t predicated on a perfect set of justifications. If the Catalonians wanted to secede partly to preserve the institution of slavery, that would be more ironic, but still irrelevant.

Let the nation without sin cast the first stone.

OpenID doktorjeep September 28, 2017 12:29 PM  

Nothing fails as wonderfully as democracy

Blogger James September 28, 2017 12:38 PM  

"Ergo, secession is reserved to the individual state or the people."
The 1st American Civil War was called "The War Between The States," because it was not primarily the US government that had an interest in the seceding states, but, rather, it was the other states who did not secede who were getting screwed out of their share of whatever the secessionist states were trying to take with them. So, yeah, the national government had no grant of authority and power to stop secession, by itself, but, the other states did, and on that basis they made them howl like bitches.

Blogger Sam Spade September 28, 2017 12:40 PM  

@VD"As far as I can tell, protecting usury"

The ones stealing Catalonians are their own regional government.

I'm for them voting,but 90% of the comment section I missinformed about this issue. We should remember that in 1978 90% of Catalonians voted for the Spanish Constitution, being one of the most unanimous regions in Spain. That's no democracy?

All foreigners now talking about an ancient struggle of poor opressed Catalonians by evil "Madrid", and liberating by their honest leaders.

Like Chent said kudos for Catalonian government winning the international propaganda battle.

Anonymous Grayman September 28, 2017 12:56 PM  

I'm a little late to the game and havent followed this closely, but is there any expectation this could actually escalate to a hot conflict?

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 28, 2017 1:14 PM  

@48 Sam Spade

Like Chent said kudos for Catalonian government winning the international propaganda battle.

Well, they didn't do it all on their own, Madrid has helped quite a bit.

Blogger FALPhil September 28, 2017 1:22 PM  

@47 The 1st American Civil War was called "The War Between The States," because it was not primarily the US government that had an interest in the seceding states, but, rather, it was the other states who did not secede who were getting screwed out of their share of whatever the secessionist states were trying to take with them.

That's a pretty twisted interpretation, especially considering the rhetoric from the then serving president.

Blogger James September 28, 2017 1:33 PM  

"That's a pretty twisted interpretation," Well, who said reality ain't twisted sometimes? Reality is not neat and clean and tidy and linear, and people who try to force it to be usually end up making themselves look stupid. Sure, it was the South who called it the War Between The States, but I'm saying that the North also fought it as states, when it came to regiments; did they or did they not? Was it not the New York Regiment this, and the Massachusetts Regiment that, etc?

Anonymous Yann September 28, 2017 1:40 PM  

I'm for them voting,but 90% of the comment section I missinformed about this issue. We should remember that in 1978 90% of Catalonians voted for the Spanish Constitution, being one of the most unanimous regions in Spain. That's no democracy

That's true. Catalonia was highly supportive with the current Spanish Constitution. Indeed, Catalonia and Basque Country showed opposite reactions when it came to the Constitution. Catalonia showed higher approval than any other area (Catalonia is a land of open-minded businessmen), while Basque Country showed lower approval than any other area (Basque Country is a land of mountains and hard work that mistrust foreigners).

They were the two extremes.

Decades later, it's Catalonia who changed its mind.

You could blame Basques for never giving the Spanish Constitution a chance, that would be true. But... Catalonia? They gave it one chance after another. And that says a lot when they've come to the point of not being able to handle it anymore.

Anonymous Yann September 28, 2017 1:58 PM  

I'm a little late to the game and havent followed this closely, but is there any expectation this could actually escalate to a hot conflict

Unlikely. The most likely outcome is that the referendum won't happen or will happen only in a few places so it can not be considered valid. So don't expect to have a clear result from the referendum.

The question is whether the Govern will declare the independence after it. It could happen, and indeed it was a electoral promise from the party that won the elections. No kidding. It was explicitely promised.

That case the Spanish Government probably would shut down the Catalan one and would declare martial law, jailing the Catalan Government, but it wouldn't escalate further. I suspect this scenario is the one that could gonna happen and that it could be the one planned from the beginning.

Once that happens, Catalonia would be completely fractured from Spain. And from then on, there will be hate. Spanish people will be invaders, simply put. In my opinion, I think the referendum is gonna be just the beginning.

And indeed I think this is good. Catalonia is gonna need a stronger nationalist feeling to get rid of Islam. Now Catalonia is too politically correct. So long term, I think it's gonna be hard, but it's gonna be good



Blogger Sam Spade September 28, 2017 3:16 PM  

@50 "Well, they didn't do it all on their own, Madrid has helped quite a bit."

True, what can you expect of a party formed by cuckservatives, infiltrated SJWs and climbers aiming for Bildeberg and global elite.

Not a very cohesive, righteous and effective group.

Blogger Chent September 28, 2017 4:17 PM  

@Lazarus

So Catalonians are shit-testing Madrid like bitches so they can get more stuff.

I can buy that.


You're right but it's a bit more complicated. Every ideology has two kinds of people: the believer and the corrupt. Regarding Christianity, you have the martyrs and people like Cardinal Richelieu.

The Catalan government (the corrupt) knows that there won't be independence after Sunday. They know it and they show it. As with women, don't listen to what they say, watch what they do. They have changed actions because they don't want to accept the consequences of breaking the law (losing their personal possessions). We are not talking of martyrs, here. Not only aren't these guys willing to give their life for their cause, it is that they don't want to lose money (for example, their home) in the fight for independence.

So, yes, the Catalan government (the corrupt) is shit testing the Spanish government to get more money. They have been doing that for the last 40 years.

Five years ago, the president of the Catalan government, Artur Mas, went to Madrid to ask for more money ("pacte fiscal" - the fiscal pact). The president of Spain, Mariano Rajoy, told him "no". It was the first "no" in 40 years. Artur Mast went back to Catalonia and started the process for independence.

But there are the believers too. Lots of people really believe this is the time. The paradise on earth starts after October 1st. (This is a leftist heresy, so they have everything leftist: the scapegoat, the paradise on earth, freedom, equality, diversity and multiculturalism). Not only the independence of Catalonia, but a new country, where wealth is abundant, there is social justice, an amazing Welfare State and a millionaire stud for every woman. In the independent Republic of Catalonia, the wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the Muslim man shall lie down with the Western woman; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little Catalan child shall lead them (Isaiah 11:6)

They are not shit testing. They are the outcome of forty years of indoctrination. They are for a rude awakening.



Blogger Galahad78 September 29, 2017 1:21 AM  

I would respect Catalonian separatists if they would be honest about their reasons and intentions. Alas, they are not.

Anonymous Ages September 29, 2017 6:09 AM  

it was the other states who did not secede who were getting screwed out of their share of whatever the secessionist states were trying to take with them

Yes, their money and property. The less-populous and less-politically powerful South was being raped by unequal taxation. It's one of the main reasons for the war; not muh slavery.

Is there any doubt it was a war of tyranny, which fundamentally transformed the federal government into the tyranny we know and love?

Anonymous Ages September 29, 2017 6:14 AM  

Speaking of less powerful, let us not forget that it was the northern states who wanted the infamous three-fifths clause. The south wanted slaves counted as full persons. It was all to reduce the apportionment of representatives and electoral votes to the southern states.

Lets not pretend America was really ever totally united in the way we might imagine. The federal union was useful as a defense pact and a guarantor of a certain uniformity among the states, but beyond that it's a terrible thing, always has been.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 29, 2017 8:41 AM  

Catalan regional government media has stolen a page from 4GW doctrine, and Reporters Without Borders are not amused.

https://rsf.org/en/news/rsf-publishes-report-respect-media-catalonia

The report (in Spanish) could be downloaded there: http://www.rsf-es.org/news/informe-rsf-respectpresscat-01-12-reporteros-sin-fronteras-pide-respeto-al-libre-ejercicio-del-periodismo-en-cataluna/

Blogger James September 29, 2017 9:53 AM  

"Yes, their money and property. The less-populous and less-politically powerful South was being raped by unequal taxation. It's one of the main reasons for the war; not muh slavery. Is there any doubt it was a war of tyranny, which fundamentally transformed the federal government into the tyranny we know and love? "
Are you sure you wanna bring up their "property?" In the same breath complaining about "tyranny?" Even Andrew Jackson didn't side with you on the taxation thing, so, what made you think trying to secede over it was an approach that was going to work? Some people deserve tyranny, and the southern rebels were assholes who deserved some come-uppance.

Blogger James September 29, 2017 9:56 AM  

"The federal union was useful as a defense pact and a guarantor of a certain uniformity among the states, but beyond that it's a terrible thing, always has been" Yeah, especially if you're a bunch of ignorant illiterate yahoos who want to keep slaves.

Blogger J.M. September 29, 2017 10:09 AM  

FALPhil wrote:OK. Call me ignorant. Just how is the claim that Spain is an artificial construct (in the context of the current political entity) incompatible with the fact that "Spanish nationalism does not entail the right for Spain to rule over Catalonians"?

There is a leap in logic here that I am not understanding.


Pretty simple, Catalonia argues that Spain is not even a nation, just an oppressive construct, with no right to exist and which has "oppressed" Catalonia for centuries. Contradictions and outright lies notwithstanding that's the propaganda they have been spreading far and wide and such an argument is not conductive to a future peaceful relationship with the rest of Spain, even if Spain granted them independence today. Should Spain do so, it would come to prove in the eyes of many the failed argument. The situation is akin to a scenario where the American colonists propaganda consisted in denying the right of United Kingdom to exist as a country that goes from the Plymouth to Kirkwall but just an oppressive construct held by force of arms, not just a different country.

Blogger J.M. September 29, 2017 10:23 AM  

Chent wrote:10. Six months or one year from now, things will have returned to normality. It is likely that there will be negotiations about a new fiscal treatment to Catalonia. So this will end up giving more money to the corrupt Catalan government, which has used the smokescreen of the independence to hide its corruption scandals.

11. 6 months or one year from now, you will be discussing about Trump, about the last SJW attack and so on and so forth. You won't remember about Catalonia. I will keep on watching the Catalan political situation on a daily basis, like I have said for the last 30 years.

I will save the link of these comment. I want to feel the pleasure to say "I told you so"


On this I disagree with you. I think that Catalonia will secede from Spain, much to the delight of the people that disdain the country in and outside of this blog; if not in six months then within the next 5 years. Since the Vatican II and the self-destruction of the Church outer structures, Spain was left without an ideological and spiritual justification to exist, was left adrift and on its way to disintegration. The people are not Catholic anymore but proud ignorant SJWs mostly, their kings are not Catholics and very likely masons who kneel before foreign powers (UK and EU)and Spaniard politicians don't care about Spain at all. Let's add the handing of sovereignty over to Brussels and NATO, the economic crisis and you have the perfect conditions for secessionist movements galore. You can be sure that after Catalonia secedes peacefully, Basque Countries will follow suit as well as Andalusia (whose alleged "father", a known Islamist, is being lionized with Spanish tax dollars...) etc. Madrid has done everything to ensure the disintegration of the country, no matter what party is in power. The "useful" vote is one of the greatest lies of the democratic system.

The only way the process can somehow be reversed is a grassroots movement on account of the historical and cultural inertia. Only time will tell if Spain's time to say goodbye has come.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 29, 2017 10:34 AM  

Good diagnostic, J.M. Seems Spain is in more danger than in 1808. There is a lesser threat, but she looks weaker too.

Interesting times ahead, for sure.

Anonymous Yann September 29, 2017 1:47 PM  

Pretty simple, Catalonia argues that Spain is not even a nation, just an oppressive construct, with no right to exist and which has "oppressed" Catalonia for centuries.

That's not true. Neither Catalonia nor Basque Country say they have been oppressed for centuries. They say they have been oppressed during the last century, which is a legit claim. The Catalan government was jailed in 1934, and during the dictatorship, speaking Catalan or Basque was punished with jail. Last years, newspapers not written in Spanish have been closed by the police without a single evidence of any crime, as it happened with the Egunkaria.

Before that, it was a matter of Kings, Queens and Kingdoms. It was not oppression and can not be considered as such, but neither can it be considered as historic agreement to belong to Spain.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 29, 2017 2:57 PM  

Yann, when will you stop digging a pit for your credibility to drop further?

Catalan crybabies could put the mythical origins of all their misfortunes mainly in three years:

1412, the year of the Compromise of Caspe, and the beginning of the rule of the Trastamara dynasty in Aragon.

1640, the year of the Catalan revolt against the Count-Duke of Olivares.

1714, the end of the War of Spanish Succession.

Actually, the modern Regionalism/Separatism began in 1886.

The seditious regional government was jailed with cause because they committed treason against the legitimate government of the 2nd Spanish Republic.

Under Franco's government, Catalan and Basque were so persecuted that there were Government-endorsed, official literary prizes for compositions in Catalan and in Basque. Also, a course in Catalan philology was compulsory for all students of Romance Philology. See this page, for instance: https://www.dolcacatalunya.com/2014/03/cuando-franco-premiaba-libros-en-catalan/

Egunkaria was supportive of the ETA terrorists, and was closed in the same manner as one editorial specialized in Nazi-themed books.

Anonymous Ages September 29, 2017 5:37 PM  

James, stop being a putz. I'm not even from the south. I'm as Yankee as it gets.

Only one constitution banned the slave trade, and it wasn't the Northern one.

Blogger James September 29, 2017 6:06 PM  

"Only one constitution banned the slave trade, and it wasn't the Northern one. " Very interesting choice of verbiage there, saying "constitution" and "slave trade." What about the actual statutory laws about slave ownership itself? Nice try, though; do spin again.
Actually, I'm not against the South as such. I loathe the tearing down of the Confederate statues, and I am very happy to salute Lee and Longstreet and Stonewall Jackson and even President Davis as great Americans. My attitude is, I don't bring it up unless someone else does, and then I don't apologize for supporting the Union, in spite of its faults. I'm a great fan of Lysander Spooner, who considered both North and South to be quite full of it for the most part.

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