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Friday, September 22, 2017

Civil resistance in Catalonia

The Spanish government's attempt to send in the Guardia Civil is being resisted by Catalonian dockworkers as well as the regional government.
More than 4,000 members of Spain’s Guardia Civil are being dispatched to the troubled region amid concerns over divided loyalties in the autonomous community’s own police force, the Mossos d’ Esquadra. Spanish authorities wanted to house the Guardia Civil officers on four cruise ships - two in Barcelona, one in Tarragona and another in Palamos.

But as thousands took to the streets to protest against the detention of Catalan officials, local dock workers joined the backlash. The Assembly of Stevedores of the Port of Barcelona announced that workers would not provide any services to boats carrying security forces, a decision it said was taken “in defence of civil rights”.

Colleagues in Tarragona quickly followed suit and the Catalan government then denied permission to dock in Palamos - which, unlike Barcelona and Tarragona, falls under regional rather than national control.

The moves to disrupt the deployment comes amid seething anger in Catalonia over the arrests of 14 people, most of them high ranking Catalan officials, during preparations for a referendum that has been declared illegal by Spain’s constitutional court.

Dramatic scenes unfolded across Barcelona and other Catalan towns as the Guardia Civil mounted 41 raids targeting government and presidential departments, as well as warehouses containing election material.
Regardless of the rights and wrongs and legalities of the matter that have been debated here over the past few days, it is apparent that the Catalonian secessionists are currently winning at the moral level of war despite the relative restraint of the Spanish government. This would suggest that they will continue to gain support from previously neutral parts, within and without Catalonia.

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117 Comments:

Anonymous Überdeplorable Psychedelic Cat Grass September 22, 2017 8:17 AM  

Though I'm against Cataluña seceding as I believe it'll only weaken it and Spain in the long run, it is true the government in Madrid is losing the moral high ground.

Blogger ZhukovG September 22, 2017 8:20 AM  

We continue to see, how it is often the reaction of an established authority to dissent that acts as the accelerant for revolution.

Blogger FALPhil September 22, 2017 8:29 AM  

@1

If Cataluña and Basque were to secede, it does not necessarily induce weakness. There is nothing whatsoever preventing the proposed countries from creating a Greater Iberian Compact to facilitate trade and defense. The greater danger of weakness would be fractures in Reino de España caused by the central government's insistence that a territory which clearly desires self-governance be forced to give up those hopes and dreams.

Anonymous Right side of history September 22, 2017 8:30 AM  

Free Catalonia. Down with tyranny

Blogger J.M. September 22, 2017 8:35 AM  

The only thing that we see here is that when the will is lacking lukewarm actions will just incentivize the rebellion, it's nothing new but it seems most humans are not learning animals. The same happened during the French and Russian revolutions. The most liberal and tolerant monarchs were tricked deposed and killed by radicals and madmen unwilling to sit and talk and hellbent on their destruction. Spanish politicians are traitors and corrupt middlemen, they would never risk being called fascists crushing sedition and the separatists know it, they know perfectly their lives are not in danger through their actions, hence my prediction: Catalonia will be independent, and quickly become the nation with the highest Muslim percentage of western Europe(1.2 million out of 6 million inhabitants...) while Spain starts its disintegration process, having started a chain reaction and unlike many here, I think the EU will accept them soon enough.

The part that has angered most people that know the case is that the independence movement is fueled by outright lies about Spain and its history and the separatists have indoctrinated their youth on those lies. Now they are acting out on those lies and as Americans are fond of saying, a good story beats cold hard facts everyday.

Blogger FALPhil September 22, 2017 8:41 AM  

@JM, I don't think the lessons of revolution translate well to secessions. As to outright lies? The victors write the history books. Cataluña wasn't the voctor. Who is actually lying here?

Anonymous Athor Pel September 22, 2017 8:43 AM  

"7. Blogger J.M. September 22, 2017 8:35 AM
...
The part that has angered most people that know the case is that the independence movement is fueled by outright lies about Spain and its history and the separatists have indoctrinated their youth on those lies. Now they are acting out on those lies and as Americans are fond of saying, a good story beats cold hard facts everyday.
"



If this is so then those lied to will eventually learn the truth. What will they do then. Will they feel used? Will they seek to destroy those that used them? Lies are sand. You cannot build anything lasting on them.

Blogger J.M. September 22, 2017 8:43 AM  

FALPhil wrote:@1

If Cataluña and Basque were to secede, it does not necessarily induce weakness. There is nothing whatsoever preventing the proposed countries from creating a Greater Iberian Compact to facilitate trade and defense. The greater danger of weakness would be fractures in Reino de España caused by the central government's insistence that a territory which clearly desires self-governance be forced to give up those hopes and dreams.


I guess history and projections are not your forte. Your scheme would work only in amicable separations (example Canada and Britain). In Catalonia and Basque Country's case such a thing will never be possible because: Most of the country has abandoned catholic faith, hence there is no common ground in religious terms for such an agreement moral relativism and nihilism are the currency and; 2) Separatist movements are mostly fueled by outright lies and half-truths about the history of Spain and their own regions, to the point they consider themselves superior to the rest of the region (without acknowledging the contributions of the rest of the country to their development) therefore their separation will never be amicable even if the government granted them independence immediately as most foreigners who hate Spain want.

Why don't we try turning the US in 50 or so independent and hostile nations and see who strong it becomes.../s

Blogger VD September 22, 2017 8:44 AM  

If you want to keep using the numbers, stop deleting your own comments. Nobody gives a damn if you misspell something.

Blogger J.M. September 22, 2017 8:45 AM  

Athor Pel wrote:If this is so then those lied to will eventually learn the truth. What will they do then. Will they feel used? Will they seek to destroy those that used them? Lies are sand. You cannot build anything lasting on them.

See Latinamerica and the Black Legend about Spain.

Blogger Cluebat Vanexodar September 22, 2017 8:58 AM  

My heart goes out to those who would be affected by this, but I believe that Vox is correct that it would be better for the Catalans to fail in spectacular fashion sooner rather than later.

The self-induced loss of Catalan culture due to massive migration of unassimilable folk will (hopefully) serve to awaken other threatened Europeans.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 9:11 AM  

Sadly, I must agree with @VD in this. @J.M. provides a good explanation, and putting the correct blame in the politicians on the National Spanish Government.

On the lies behind this attack to liberty, democracy, and rule of law that is that illegal referendum, this Spanish blogger is very accurate and descriptive:

http://www.outono.net/elentir/2017/09/22/catalonia-this-is-what-some-spanish-and-international-media-almost-never-explain/

After some point-by-point debunking, @ElentirENG concludes:

"It is necessary to remember that the separatism has provoked that conflict with its challenge to the legality, and that does it accepting like unique law the law of the funnel. And this same separatism that speaks of democracy, at the same time imposes fines on the merchants who label their stores in Spanish, and forces the children to do their studies only in Catalan, radically totalitarian practices in a territory with two official languages, Spanish and Catalan. I must add that the Catalan government has imposed on schools a nationalist ideological indoctrination that is absolutely antidemocratic. Catalan children are educated in the hatred of Spain and the falsification of history to turn them into adherents to the separatist cause. That same manipulation is carried out from the regional public television, TV3, facts that have been subject of multiple critics for decades.

Finally, the so-called moderate nationalism has allied with far-left groups like the CUP (of communist ideology) to carry out this breakaway coup against constitutional legality. They are violent groups that have carried out campaigns of hatred against the tourists in Catalonia, calling “terrorists” to those who travel to that region for leisure reasons. These radical leftist groups are being used as a shock force to intimidate constitutional defenders by engaging in acts of harassment against politicians and officials (and even against their families, including their schoolchildren) and attacks against headquarters of democratic parties and businesses of those who do not think like them. The separatists owe much of their hegemony in Catalonia to fear: they have endeavored to infuse fear among all those who disagree with independence, even among children.

The international media almost never report on these facts and data that I have just pointed out. That is why, if you feel respect for truth and justice, if you consider yourself a Democrat and understand, as many Spaniards, that there can be no real democracy without respect for the law, I beg you to share this article with your friends and acquaintances. This has to be known all over the world."

Blogger Lobo Util September 22, 2017 9:16 AM  

Back when I was in Spain in the 1970's, the usual crowd/riot control was always taken care of by the "Grays". They were special riot control police bused in. They used meter long hollow leather canes, tear gas, rubber bullets, and beat downs to control unruly crowds. Fatalities were rare.

The Civil Guard on the other hand always carried guns, usual fully automatic. At that point in time they were known to be so deadly that all unrest was over instantly when they showed up. They shot to kill anyone out of line.

Does anyone here know if the Civil Guard (Guardia Civil) still has the badass shoot first reputation in Spain?

Anonymous Yann September 22, 2017 9:17 AM  

If Cataluña and Basque were to secede, it does not necessarily induce weakness. There is nothing whatsoever preventing the proposed countries from creating a Greater Iberian Compact to facilitate trade and defense.

Indeed, Basque Country, Catalonia and Spain would be natural allies. Problems are happening because of proximity. Nations, as people, need to have their own space.

One big problem with moder leftism (and some rights like the Spanish one) is that they think that you can force everybody to get along just pushing everybody together. This is what's happening in US: how you make blacks, whites and hispanics get along? Just gather them all in the same space.

And no, reality is that if you push people with different values together, you're likely to create conflicts and hate. Funny thing with all the current claims of "hate speech" is hate is not being created by any speech (hard to find such speeches nowadays) but by the forced multiculturalism. You need to let people freely gather with people they share common ground and values, so collaboration is the natural outcome.

Forcing people together, what you get is that neighbours that get along well become roommates that hate each other.

Blogger FALPhil September 22, 2017 9:19 AM  

Why don't we try turning the US in 50 or so independent and hostile nations and see who strong it becomes.../s

I guess foreign relations is not your forte. Why do you instantly assume hostility?

Frankly, sarcasm aside, I see no problem in the 50 states reconfiguring along whatever lines suits them, as long as the people within the borders can generally agree with each other. Lines on maps are arbitrary anyway. If Texas, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana wanted to form their own confederation apart from the USA, what moral ground do people in Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York, and New Jersey have to prevent them? For that matter, if the 13 British colonies had wanted to form their own confederation, what moral ground did King George III have to object?

The ONLY reason the central government of Spain objects to Cataluña seceding is because it lessens that government's power. So what? If the government is ruling over a tribe that clearly does not want to remain, do you honestly think that they can solve the problem by forcing the tribe to remain?

The bigger question is, is a tribe's self determination a right or not?

Blogger August September 22, 2017 9:20 AM  

My first thought is that dock workers are probably union, and unions are leftist, so they probably had this opinion from the start.

But the Spanish do need to get this over with quickly. Have you translated 4GW into Spanish yet?

Anonymous Eric Cartman September 22, 2017 9:21 AM  

Your scheme would work only in amicable separations (example Canada and Britain). In Catalonia and Basque Country's case such a thing will never be possible because: Most of the country has abandoned catholic faith, hence there is no common ground in religious terms for such an agreement moral relativism and nihilism are the currency

It sounds like they shouldn't have been thrust together within the same nation in first place.

Anonymous Yann September 22, 2017 9:26 AM  

Does anyone here know if the Civil Guard (Guardia Civil) still has the badass shoot first reputation in Spain?

Barely.

Right now, Guardia Civil is more oriented to small cities and towns, while you have other police forces taking care of bit urban areas. So Guardia Civil has been absent of most civil riots (that happen in big cities). And indeed, they are slightly better considered than urban police forces.

Only place where Guardia Civil is not welcome right now is Basque Country. However, it seems that their image in Catalonia is gonna take a very hard hit.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 9:27 AM  

@Lobo Util: Guardia Civil has an excellent reputation on Spain. That excellent reputation has never included anything about "shooting first, ask later".

@FALPhil: Seems you did not bother on informing yourself about the issue in question. Case in point: self-determination. That dead horse has received so much beating that only a few bones remain.

@August: The first union that informed about the presence of those ferries used as extraordinary lodgings is an Anarchist Union, of the kind that represents the legacy of the old CNT, famous by gangsterism, and atrocities in the Spanish Civil War. Repressed by the Communists, BTW.

Blogger FALPhil September 22, 2017 9:28 AM  

@Nobody_Expects, I would have to disagree with ElentirENG. The so-called "anti-democratic" laws are not anti-democratic, since the people elected the majority representatives that put those laws in place. Anti-democratic would be if a minority of representatives put those laws in place.

Blogger FALPhil September 22, 2017 9:32 AM  

@19 @FALPhil: Seems you did not bother on informing yourself about the issue in question. Case in point: self-determination. That dead horse has received so much beating that only a few bones remain.

Then why do we even care enough to be discussing this? Let's move on to something important.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 9:33 AM  

@Eric Cartman: It used to be advisable to try to read and understand an issue before trying to Would you be so kind to read something about the history of Spain before uttering smart opinions.

The County of Barcelona was joined to the Kingdom of Aragon in the 12th. century, by dynastic marriage.

The Kingdom of Aragon and the Kingdom of Castile were joined in the 15th. century, also by dynastic marriage.

There were no religious differences back then.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 9:40 AM  

@FALPhil:

Are you sure you know which anti-democratic laws Elentir is writing about?

Are you aware that in a democracy with rule-of-law, subordinate laws must be consistent with superior laws?

Also, How on Earth a minority of representatives could manage to pass a law in a democratic parliament, and have that law qualified as anti-democratic?

Anonymous VFM #6306 September 22, 2017 10:08 AM  

The moral level has been the issue from the beginning.

Appeals to the constitution and justifications for a crackdown because Catalonian secession is "bad" for Catalonia do not inspire the Guards, whereas the docking of boats has inspired previously apolitical dockworkers to fight for the people.

Spain's moral move is obvious: back off. Let Catalonia vote. Say "lo siento" and stand down. It is possible that people will have time to recover from the upset and actually vote against secession again. Even if they don't, and vote to leave, Spain will be able to restore Catalonia far more easily should the nascent nation falls flat on its face in front of the EU.

The last thing you want to do is radicalize a state before you force it to fight violently for its perceived rights.

Blogger James September 22, 2017 10:09 AM  

"currently winning at the moral level of war "
Because Catatonia reminds me of my own state of Gruberfornia, I find that I have no sympathy for them, despite the propaganda intended to incite such sympathy.

Anonymous Yann September 22, 2017 10:13 AM  

PostData, With regard to the Guardia Civil stuff

One last thing I forgot. Guardia Civil never were known as having a happy trigger with the guns. Their negative reputation (specially in nationalistic areas) was more related to the torture of detainees and people under arrest.

Blogger MendoScot September 22, 2017 10:21 AM  

Related: just finished listening to Sharia Mays #Brexit talk in Italy.

My take - pablum. Now, out by 2019. Bigger, Brighter, Better Future™ through negotiation with our honest and good natured EU bureaucrats.

Not going to happen. This is a recipe for death by civil service.

Anonymous Lars Porsena September 22, 2017 10:37 AM  

#15 - "If the government is ruling over a tribe that clearly does not want to remain, do you honestly think that they can solve the problem by forcing the tribe to remain?"

Well it has worked for the last 600 years.

Blogger Resident Moron™ September 22, 2017 10:40 AM  

"There were no religious differences back then."

The holy roman catholic church would beg to differ:

http://infogalactic.com/info/Spanish_Inquisition

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 22, 2017 10:44 AM  

Spanish blogger
And this same separatism that speaks of democracy, at the same time imposes fines on the merchants who label their stores in Spanish, and forces the children to do their studies only in Catalan, radically totalitarian practices in a territory with two official languages, Spanish and Catalan. I must add that the Catalan government has imposed on schools a nationalist ideological indoctrination that is absolutely antidemocratic.

This vaguely reminds me of Orwell's book about his experiences in the 1930's Spanish civil war. The anarchists turned out to be much worse than the Phalangists; a barber was executed because he charged a man for a haircut.

What was that book? Oh, yeah.
Homage to Catalonia.

Blogger daddynichol September 22, 2017 10:46 AM  

Winning the moral war was mentioned in a recent collection of essays and stories, was it not? Riding the Red Horse. Get a copy now and read it. Elements of 4G on display in this present dust up.

Blogger Lazarus September 22, 2017 10:52 AM  

VFM #6306 wrote:Spain's moral move is obvious: back off. Let Catalonia vote.

The catalonian .gov did a poll in July that showed 49% against secession, and only 41% for.

Also in July,

Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy mocked the plan as "authoritarian delerium" and vowed it would not go ahead. Now he doubles down. Might not be getting good advice.


One of his advisors, Alvaro Nadal tweets: Defendemos los mismos argumentos que Abraham Lincoln para oponernos a la secesión (We defend the same arguments as Abraham Lincoln to oppose secession)

Anonymous VFM #6306 September 22, 2017 10:54 AM  

Because Catatonia reminds me of my own state of Gruberfornia, I find that I have no sympathy for them, despite the propaganda intended to incite such sympathy.

Irrelevant to the "moral level of war." The real question is how much sympathy do Catalonians have for resistance?

If dockworkers are throwing in with your side, you are winning the moral level. Big time.

Anonymous VFM #6306 September 22, 2017 10:56 AM  

Spain can win this at the moral level. Hint: it involves NOT sending in headcrackers to scare the women and children.

Blogger Lazarus September 22, 2017 10:57 AM  

Rajoy tweet:

I ask those in charge of the Generalitat to abandon disobedience, they stand before a chimera. Return to law and democracy

Law and democracy versus authoritarian delusions. This is the rhetorical battle plan.

Anonymous VFM #6306 September 22, 2017 10:59 AM  

One of his advisors, Alvaro Nadal tweets: Defendemos los mismos argumentos que Abraham Lincoln para oponernos a la secesión (We defend the same arguments as Abraham Lincoln to oppose secession)

Whoa. Did he also tweet "sic semper tyrannus?"

Blogger Chent September 22, 2017 11:07 AM  

The Spanish government lost the moral ground about 40 years ago, when it allowed Catalan governments to break the law and to impose a system of soft totalitarian control.

The Spanish government looked the other way and didn't protect its own citizens, because political alliances with Catalan nationalists were convenient (due to the less-than-proportional electoral system, it is difficult to have a majority without the Catalan nationalists).

When a child was forbidden to have an education in Spanish... When merchants were fined because they had signs in Spanish... When the public TV closed all possibility of debate and became a propaganda branch of the secessionist parties...When huge amounts of public money were given only to the organizations in favor of the independence... When the Diada (the Catalonia day) stopped being a day for all Catalans and became a day only for secessionists... When the public Administration lost all appearance of neutrality...When non-secessionist Catalan people couldn't express their opinions in public... When acts of non-secessionists politicians were sabotaged by secesssionist "antifa", the Milo way...When Supreme Court rules were ignored and mocked once and again by the Catalan authorities...When Catalan authorities bragged about breaking the law...the Spanish government looked the other way.

You know about the frog boiling, don't you?

Now, for the first time in 40 years, the Spanish government has applied the law. Catalan nationalists are astonished: it seems something intolerable to them, an abuse. An entire generation of nationalists has grown up feeling entitled to do anything they want. They are angry and throwing a temper tantrum (like liberals when Hillary Clinton after the election)

Blogger VD September 22, 2017 11:13 AM  

Now, for the first time in 40 years, the Spanish government has applied the law. Catalan nationalists are astonished: it seems something intolerable to them, an abuse. An entire generation of nationalists has grown up feeling entitled to do anything they want. They are angry and throwing a temper tantrum (like liberals when Hillary Clinton after the election)

Actually, it looks a lot more like the Spanish anti-secessionists are angry and throwing a temper tantrum. Indifference would be letting the Catalans go their own way.

As I said, regardless of what the facts are, you guys are losing the moral level of war here.

Anonymous Dan September 22, 2017 11:26 AM  

I stand with Catalonia

Blogger Chent September 22, 2017 11:27 AM  

I want to translate the first paragraph of this article, that seems accurate to me (my comments between square brackets):

"The application of the rule of law in Catalonia has made the secessionist leaders to have the same reaction that spoiled children have when their parents tell them "no" once. The children throw a tantrum.

In addition, secessionist parties invoke values that they themselves abuse without qualms.

For example, Puigdemont accuses the [Spanish] state of "having 'de facto' suspended the self-government of Catalonia", after [Catalan secessionists] suspended the Constitution, the [Catalan] Statute and the democratic rights of the opposition in the Catalan government.

[All these are the legal basis of Catalonian self-government]

"Suspended" is an understatement. They destroyed all these with sardonic arrogance."

http://www.libertaddigital.com/opinion/cristina-losada/no-hay-que-darles-nada-desafio-separatista-cataluna-puigdemont-83220/

Blogger Lazarus September 22, 2017 11:33 AM  

Spain, by destroying the middle ground, has guaranteed a secessionist win if the referendum goes ahead. They are stuck. They will have to increase the oppression (ala Lincoln, no doubt)

A case in point: At last night’s demonstration, spread across multiple locations in Barcelona, were two friends of mine, one who is fanatically apolitical and the other who is a strong Catalan nationalist but who believes that independence would be a political and financial disaster for the region. It was their first ever political demonstration. If there is a vote on Oct-1, they will probably vote to secede.

https://wolfstreet.com/2017/09/21/catalonia-independence-repression-by-spain/

Blogger Chent September 22, 2017 11:35 AM  

Actually, it looks a lot more like the Spanish anti-secessionists are angry and throwing a temper tantrum.

Of course not. Do you see crowds of anti-secessionists in the street whining and protesting? If you see them, please tell me, because I have seen none and I follow this process almost daily for the last 30 years or so (I used to be a secessionist when I was young).

What the Spanish government is doing is called "applying the law". If someone is planning to break the law, it is only natural that the Police tries to stop it. This is not a tantrum.

All the whining and protesting and acting as a victim comes from the secessionist side. They think they are going to get the independence by crying and whining, like the leftist crybullies they are. Very similar to liberal people demanding resignation of Trump after the election (Don't miss the compilations on Youtube: they are hillarious).

Anonymous a_peraspera September 22, 2017 11:41 AM  

"Why don't we try turning the US in 50 or so independent and hostile nations and see who strong it becomes..."

The US is incredibly weak as of NOW. Very little manufacturing or real industry, educational system hollowed out. Middle school is nothing more than babysitting, while high school and college are just Leftist propaganda.

Our military can't even move its ships around without crashing into fishing boats, much less win a war.

Our "elites" use what economic activity there is as huge funnels to transfer all wealth to rich people in DC, NYC, Chicago and California.

We can't agree on how to fix anything because every ethnic group is trying to grab whatever they can for themselves (mostly milking Whites for tax dollars).

Everyone has a different idea for how to fix things, no one agrees with anyone else, and you can't get spending under control because reducing the flow of White tax dollars is seen as taking food from the mouths of poor black or latino children.

How could splitting up the US into 50 different nations make anything WORSE?

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 11:41 AM  

@Lazarus: very fake news in that link.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 22, 2017 11:43 AM  

Chent, where did the funding come from for the Catalonian separatism back in the 80's and 90's? Lots of small donations, Non Governmental Organizations, local governments, or something else? The Commie Soviets spent a lot of money in the 70's and 80's on things like the Red Brigades. It would have made sense for them to bankroll Catalan separatism through cutouts like globalist foundations. Then once it got momentum, even if funding went away the separatists would continue as orgs.

Not that it makes any diff. Social mood in Current Year matters more than who did what back in 1973.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 11:45 AM  

Also, two days ago, the Catalonian regional VP was on the regional radio literally crying because the big bad mean Guardia Civil, following the legal, lawful, and legitimate orders of a judge, had confiscated the means to organize his illegal referendum.

Come on, we are seeing here a level of snowflakeness not seen since HRC defeat.

Anonymous Eric Cartman September 22, 2017 11:48 AM  

NobodyExpects wrote:@Eric Cartman: It used to be advisable to try to read and understand an issue before trying to Would you be so kind to read something about the history of Spain before uttering smart opinions.

The County of Barcelona was joined to the Kingdom of Aragon in the 12th. century, by dynastic marriage.

The Kingdom of Aragon and the Kingdom of Castile were joined in the 15th. century, also by dynastic marriage.

There were no religious differences back then.

I don't profess to be an expert on Spanish history. I'm just trying to understand the contradiction you are illustrating. You seem to believe that the two regions have such irreconcilable disagreements on basic culture that they would be unable to coordinate a mutual trade/defense pact. But if that's the case, then why does it make sense to force them to abide by all the common laws and customs of a single nation?

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 11:51 AM  




A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents wrote:Chent, where did the funding come from for the Catalonian separatism back in the 80's and 90's? Lots of small donations, Non Governmental Organizations, local governments, or something else? The Commie Soviets spent a lot of money in the 70's and 80's on things like the Red Brigades. It would have made sense for them to bankroll Catalan separatism through cutouts like globalist foundations. Then once it got momentum, even if funding went away the separatists would continue as orgs.

Not that it makes any diff. Social mood in Current Year matters more than who did what back in 1973.


Funny thing is, the funding came from public taxation, with some embezzlement. Same as fo today.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 22, 2017 11:54 AM  

Funny thing is, the funding came from public taxation, with some embezzlement. Same as fo today.

Taxation monies from Catalonia recycled or tax monies sent from Madrid, or both?

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 11:56 AM  

@E. Cartman: I was answering to this bit:

"It sounds like they shouldn't have been thrust together within the same nation in first place."

That fragment makes one think that Spain was formed as a nation two years ago, not in 587, when a Visigoth king converted to Catholicism.

Blogger Phat Repat September 22, 2017 11:56 AM  

There is no question the State has become the enemy; and that is where things need to change. But not by secession or other such acts that are a perceptive short-term fix for a long-term ailment.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 11:59 AM  

A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents wrote:Funny thing is, the funding came from public taxation, with some embezzlement. Same as fo today.

Taxation monies from Catalonia recycled or tax monies sent from Madrid, or both?


It does not matter, those funds should have been spent in something useful, not in sowing hate.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera September 22, 2017 12:01 PM  

Thanks for keeping us up on this story.

Blogger Bill Halsey September 22, 2017 12:43 PM  

>>"There were no religious differences back then."

The holy roman catholic church would beg to differ:
http://infogalactic.com/info/Spanish_Inquisition<<

Lecturing someone called "Nobody expects" on the Spanish Inquisition

Comedy gold :)

Blogger Sam Spade September 22, 2017 12:44 PM  

I recently read 4GWF gifted by VD (many thanks, great book). Today I spoke to my brother and said to him that the Spanish government was losing the moral war (with other words). I agree with that analysis.

But the facts are not the lies and the petty victimism expressed by the catalonian politics.

90% all you foreigners have fallen for propaganda, is painful to read so much missinformation from all non spanish people. Even intelligent ones. Assange is being a tool this days and it's obvious he doesn't know.

You are standing now with globalists in this issue. I hope you realize this.

This is coming from a spanish guy who would like catalunya to vote, and stop whining. I would go farther and vote for their independence if I went asked. But reading all the lies about repression or theft from spanish government make me cringe. Let's them vote but for God's sake, not change history or lie.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 12:52 PM  

Secessionists just lost their pet Electoral Commission. There could not be certification of the referendum results without Electoral Commission.

Perhaps the battle of public image is not going well for the forces of the light, but the orcs are losing logistics at a terrible pace.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 12:59 PM  

@Bill Halsey: Pretty please, check when the Spanish Inquisition was formed, and also, pretty please, tell me if there were significant differences between Aragon and Castile, especially among the ruling classes, that could have aborted the union of the two kingdoms.

Putting some bungling pedant in their place.

Comedy platinum. :D

Blogger August September 22, 2017 1:03 PM  

This was one of the knee-jerk libertarian ideas- that we should just be for secession because that would decentralize and ultimately lead to more freedom. Meanwhile, it's usually the local authorities that say what you can and can't do in your home, front yard, etc... And these guys are pro-EU, so how authentically secessionist can they actually be?

Blogger Ezekiel September 22, 2017 1:06 PM  

Lobo Util wrote:Back when I was in Spain in the 1970's, the usual crowd/riot control was always taken care of by the "Grays". They were special riot control police bused in. They used meter long hollow leather canes, tear gas, rubber bullets, and beat downs to control unruly crowds. Fatalities were rare.

The Civil Guard on the other hand always carried guns, usual fully automatic. At that point in time they were known to be so deadly that all unrest was over instantly when they showed up. They shot to kill anyone out of line.

Does anyone here know if the Civil Guard (Guardia Civil) still has the badass shoot first reputation in Spain?

Which half of the 70's was this? The Guardia was apparently Franco's own personal stormtroopers back in the day so I would guess that they got defanged pretty quickly. Wouldn't know for sure.

TBH, this whole thing is giving me flashbacks to Crimea. The talking points even seem to be identical. Seeing this happen without a large neighbouring military backing up the seperatists will be... interesting.

Blogger Ezekiel September 22, 2017 1:10 PM  

How many guns are there in Catalonia? I looked up the laws once and it's apparently a pain to get a gun in Spain (even bows and muskets are registered), but that doesn't tell you much about the actual situation on the ground.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 1:10 PM  

Public high school in a Catalan town writes to students parents demanding permission for the kids to attend a Separatist rally in school hours. Of course, nobody would dare to not giver permission.

http://www.outono.net/elentir/2017/09/21/llevan-a-alumnos-menores-de-edad-a-un-mitin-separatista-en-horario-escolar/

Very democratic.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 1:22 PM  

@Ezekiel: Not many. Almost no pistols, mainly shotguns, and those in rural areas. Spain is quite a hoplophobic country, and using a weapon against a criminal usually is worse for the almost victim.

Anonymous Iron Spartan September 22, 2017 1:25 PM  

Is there any way to help both side lose in this? That is my prefered outcome when ever EU client states are involved.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 22, 2017 1:29 PM  

@65
Is there any way to help both side lose in this?

So far Madrid and Barcelona seem to be doing that on their own just fine.

Blogger Sam Spade September 22, 2017 1:42 PM  

@63 "Is there any way to help both side lose in this? That is my prefered outcome when ever EU client states are involved."

This kind of stuff is why every country needs alt-right. No friends among neighbours in the EU. Few people in Spain understands this, they are very naive.

I hope they read more comments like yours to wake up to reality.

Blogger The Overgrown Hobbit September 22, 2017 1:51 PM  

When territories wanted to join the United States, both the citizens of the territories, and the citizens of the U.S. (via their representatives) had to agree to the union. I've always wondered where the idea of unilateral disengagement comes from. If would-be no-fault divorcees had been treated like the South during the U.S. civil war, pour encourager les autres we'd all be better off.

Blogger August September 22, 2017 1:52 PM  

So, what would be the game plan, if you were 4GW aware and Madrid?

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 22, 2017 2:00 PM  

So, what would be the game plan, if you were 4GW aware and Madrid?

I would declare victory, send the Guardia home and let the election proceed. When the initiative failed I would be as magnanimous as possible to the people of Catalonia while punishing the elites in subtle ways, starting with turning off their importation of colonizers from Morocco.

Blogger August September 22, 2017 2:06 PM  

I was thinking fake the elections, but since we are dealing with leftists, the Catalonians are probably already faking it. So, breaking news should come out, with Madrid authorities showing a roomful of secessionist ballots that they were going to throw the election with.

Blogger Sam Spade September 22, 2017 2:08 PM  

@67 "So, what would be the game plan, if you were 4GW aware and Madrid? "

Let them vote, and in very public intervention ask the separatists for their political and economic plan after they get independence, how are they going to make their region work isolated . Expose their contradictions like wanting to lose sovereignty to the EU, and wanting mass muslim immigration that dilutes and corrodes the culture they want to keep pure. Say no to the request of Separatists to conserve double nationality (yes, it's true, guys , they want to keep Spanish nationalit just in case I guess).

The strategy for me would be be becoming a concern troll, seeding discord and question Catalonia's economic and social future.

If that doesn't succeed, just let them become Qatarlunya, and in the future it's sure they will come back for aid, hating more their new and more real enemy.

Remember how Scotland voted NO to separate UK because of economic and stability concerns, over ideological ones.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 22, 2017 2:12 PM  

Assuming Madrid wants to retain Catalonia, de-escalation and allowing the Catalonian elites to lose their election is best in my opinion. My opinion won't even get a medio dia on Las Ramblas, though.

Neither side is going to back down now.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener September 22, 2017 2:15 PM  

How would it go over in Catalonia if the Madrid government promised to deport muslims?

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 22, 2017 2:15 PM  

@70
The strategy for me would be be becoming a concern troll, seeding discord and question Catalonia's economic and social future.


Exactly.

Anonymous Yann September 22, 2017 2:22 PM  

I was thinking fake the elections, but since we are dealing with leftists, the Catalonians are probably already faking it.

The separatist movement has both Catalan left and right together. Basically, they united since the independence is a bigger cause than any of their differences. The president of Catalonia and current separatist leader, Carles Puigdemont, is right-winged. His number-two, Junqueras, is left-winged. They belong to different parties but they work together for the sake and good of Catalonia.

That's indeed the signature of a nation: when both right and left can work together for a bigger good when it's needed. It's the same attitude that had the surgeon that operated Ronald Reagan, a know Democrat supporter, when he told him "Mr.President, today we are all Republicans". That's the spirit of a nation. And indeed the current hate between left and right in US shows that US is not a nation anymore.

Blogger Sam Spade September 22, 2017 2:30 PM  

@74 "The president of Catalonia and current separatist leader, Carles Puigdemont, is right-winged."

They advertise themselves as right-wing. We all know that they are social-democrats or liberals at best, we all should know how things are by now. Fake right.

The other nationalist parties are just more left wing.

Blogger August September 22, 2017 2:46 PM  

A former journalist and his political party was Convergence and Union...

Leftist. The roomful of ballots thing would totally work. Madrid should get to work manufacturing them right now, in case they can't find the real ones.

Blogger pyrrhus September 22, 2017 2:47 PM  

4th Generation warfare with Spain making every possible blunder to unite a previously divided movement.

Blogger August September 22, 2017 2:55 PM  

Carles Puigdemont also didn't take the oaths required to, you know, actually have his job.

Interesting that Madrid let that one go. Probably should have stopped him from being the grand-high muckety-muck back when he decided to throw that particular hissy fit.

Anonymous Yann September 22, 2017 3:02 PM  

They advertise themselves as right-wing. We all know that they are social-democrats or liberals at best, we all should know how things are by now. Fake right.

Puigdemont has been always CiU, which is the standard European Christian-Democracy. He's not any "fake-right", neither was Mas, neither was Jordi Pujol.

When the people of a nation is united, they can let their differences apart for a while and work in a common project. Because there's something far more important than the differences between them: their love for their land and their people.

When you love your land, you can understand this. But you can't explain that kind of love to people who don't have it. Either you know it, either you don't.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 3:15 PM  

Pujol was a Social Democrat. His ideal of society was the Sweden of high taxes, and comprehensive welfare state. Pujol did nothing against divorce, nor abortion laws. So the Christian part is suspect. His non-Christianity is confirmed by the bad relationship with Pope St. John Paul II.

Now? Now, Pujol is only a scoundrel, of the kind portrayed in the famous quote of Samuel Johnson on patriotism, and should be in jail. Not for his ideas, but for stealing with both hands of his "loved" Catalonia. I suppose rapists also tell they love their victims, but they, definitely do not make love to them.

About Puigdemont, he was chosen as regional president by the extreme, marxist, collectivist, Chavist, CUP. The preferred presidential candidate by the most voted party after last election (CDC, JPS, or whatever) was Artur Mas, but CUP decided he is too much of a moderate, and went to choose the most radical member posible. That is Puigdemont.

Now, Yann, write again Puigdemont is for the minimum state, and let us have another laugh.

Blogger August September 22, 2017 3:18 PM  

Well, if these guys win, get ready to fight. You love your land, and you find yourself not in your land anymore because they make it terrible for you and import new people. This is why it matters if it is the left or not. The builders of Detroit would not have built that city had they known what was going to happen to it.

Blogger Resident Moron™ September 22, 2017 3:29 PM  

"Pretty please, check when the Spanish Inquisition was formed, and also, pretty please, tell me if there were significant differences between Aragon and Castile, especially among the ruling classes, that could have aborted the union of the two kingdoms."

Pedant, you say?

It was you who said the final conglomeration occurred "in the 15th Century".

If you'd read the relevant Infogalactic page I linked to, you'd have seen this:

"The Tribunal of the Holy Office of the Inquisition (Spanish: Tribunal del Santo Oficio de la Inquisición), commonly known as the Spanish Inquisition (Inquisición española), was established in 1478"

I'm sorry the facts contradict you, but that's not pedantry, it's history.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 3:29 PM  

@August: Fight? Do you think the new rulers will apply multiculturalism to "Unionists" like they were Muslims, and subsidize their way of life?

More likely, treatment would be what Antifa do to whoever they label as a Nazi. Nobody has mercy of Nazis.

Outspoken Unionists on Catalonia would be labeled Fascists, and be denied some choice jobs. Heck, that has been happening for about 25 years now.

And, in contrast to some popular extremists of late, most right wing Catalans believe that neither suicide bombings nor indiscriminate attacks are morally correct.

Fleeing to the other side seems the way to go. Like in 1936-9.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 3:39 PM  

Resident Moron™ wrote:"Pretty please, check when the Spanish Inquisition was formed, and also, pretty please, tell me if there were significant differences between Aragon and Castile, especially among the ruling classes, that could have aborted the union of the two kingdoms."

Pedant, you say?

It was you who said the final conglomeration occurred "in the 15th Century".

If you'd read the relevant Infogalactic page I linked to, you'd have seen this:

"The Tribunal of the Holy Office of the Inquisition (Spanish: Tribunal del Santo Oficio de la Inquisición), commonly known as the Spanish Inquisition (Inquisición española), was established in 1478"

I'm sorry the facts contradict you, but that's not pedantry, it's history.


Yes, I know the Spanish Inquisition was established in 1478, and the Catholic Kings married in 1479.

Now, I repeat: "pretty please, tell me if there were significant differences between Aragon and Castile, especially among the ruling classes, that could have aborted the union of the two kingdoms."

Well, were there, Mr. Expert?

Do you think the Spanish Inquisition could be established without the agreement of both monarchs?

Does the establishment of the Spanish Inquisition means that the rulers of both Aragon and Castile had unsolvable religious differences among them?

Or, perhaps, did it meant that they were definitively in the same page with respect to religion?

Continuing by this way, do you know what Reyes Católicos, or Catholic Kings, mean?

The point was someone claiming that the current, as of 2017, minor religious differences between Catalonia, the Basque Provinces, and the rest of Spain, mean that the country should have not been united right off the bat.

So, yes, this is pedantry, clumsiness, and historic ignorance.

At least.

Anonymous Philipp September 22, 2017 3:51 PM  

I understand that the referendum is agains the law. But why does the government in Madrid the Catalan authorities not permission to organise and held the vote? If they do not want to be in Spain, let them go.

Of course I also understand that people do not think rationally when it comes to their nation and their country (these terms are in most places not the same thing).

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 3:58 PM  

Seems you do not understand the expression "to be against the law". And, for the umpteenth time, Catalonia does not fulfill the requisites established in international law to receive independence because of self-determination.

Furthermore, individual secessionists are free to go away to live in North Korea, Cuba, or Venezuela, for instance. So the Catalans that are not for secession would be free to live in peace.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) September 22, 2017 4:04 PM  

32. Lazarus September 22, 2017 10:52 AM
The catalonian .gov did a poll in July that showed 49% against secession, and only 41% for.



every poll up to the election showed Hillary winning. strange that she's not the President.

every poll up to the referendum showed Brexit failing. strange that PM May has been tasked with leaving the EU.

are you tarded?

polls do not necessarily reflect reality.

further, the July poll happened *before* the Spanish .gov lost their minds and started pissing Catalonians off.

Blogger Resident Moron™ September 22, 2017 4:05 PM  

@84

Dude, that's called shifting the goalposts.

I quoted your shifted version for that very reason.

Your original statement was that there were no religious differences in the 15th century.

I proved you wrong even tho I knew it did not invalidate your point because it wasn't pedantry it was a joke on your handle.

But I didn't expect a sort of Spanish Inquisition!

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 4:20 PM  

You did not prove anything wrong in my statements, You only proved that you had not read the whole thread, went to make a rash judgement, and thought you could make an easy gotcha in some deluded Spic in order to prove your alpha-ness.

Know what? You failed. You went for a target that only exist in your deluded imagination. You made a squib, a dud.

Blogger Resident Moron™ September 22, 2017 4:44 PM  

Do you know about the eye-rolling game?

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 4:48 PM  

Congratulations, you have enjoyed your 5 minutes of glory.

Let me treat with the grownups in the room now.

Blogger August September 22, 2017 4:49 PM  

NobodyExpects,

I was actually telling Yann he'll need to fight, assuming we are correct and these leaders are leftist.

Blogger Resident Moron™ September 22, 2017 4:50 PM  

Be my guest.

(my apologies to the adults in the room: I knew responding was a mistake, but I did it anyway. Mea culpa.)

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 5:14 PM  

The dehumanization of the opposed to secession continues. "Ultra" in this context usually means Fascist.

@VD would like the second part of the included video, even understand the chant.

http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/09/22/59c55a2322601d4b078b45d2.html

Blogger Lazarus September 22, 2017 5:15 PM  

((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) wrote:further, the July poll happened *before* the Spanish .gov lost their minds and started pissing Catalonians off.

that was kinda my point, Bob K.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 5:17 PM  

@August: Yann would not fight. He is a secessionist, according the the renowned Duck Test.

Blogger Lazarus September 22, 2017 5:18 PM  

Also:

Turnout at the annual Catalan national day event in Barcelona on 11 September was impressive - around a million people according to local police - but in 2014 it was estimated at 1.8 million.

Blogger August September 22, 2017 5:19 PM  

Yes, he will not be ready, until it is too late, and his leaders chase him out of his beloved land, probably to replace him with their EU mandated quota of Muslims.

Anonymous OP September 22, 2017 5:21 PM  

As someone of Spanish descent, I find this whole brouhaha a little embarrassing. It's being handled in the worst possible way, which just comes to show you that not everything can be blamed on the Black legend.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 5:29 PM  

Worst possible way?

Were you expecting Leopard 2s rolling in Barcelona streets, shooting canister, and mulching teenager demonstrators, by chance?

Also, are you following the Alt-Right media, and the Assange claims? Because those look to be in the Secessionist tank.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 5:34 PM  

@Lazarus, turnout last 11 September was quite low. See here:
http://www.europapress.es/nacional/noticia-diada-2017-grafico-intento-representar-objetivamente-evolucion-asistentes-20170909085120.html

Blogger bw September 22, 2017 5:47 PM  

uh_oh

Blogger bw September 22, 2017 5:47 PM  

as u shuld

Anonymous amazement along NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 6:05 PM  

Jack Ward is a nice person.

Blogger buwaya September 22, 2017 6:14 PM  

Is it perhaps too paranoid to think that perhaps Rajoy WANTS them to leave?

Blogger Ezekiel September 22, 2017 6:18 PM  

Jack Ward Stands with Ezekiel?

Vox, have I done something to upset you?

Blogger Ezekiel September 22, 2017 6:18 PM  

Oh, wait, it's everyone...

...carry on.

Anonymous a comfy chair next to NobodyExpects September 22, 2017 6:20 PM  

buwaya wrote:Is it perhaps too paranoid to think that perhaps Rajoy WANTS them to leave?

Considering that in the 2004 election, even after the Madrid bombings, the Catalonian votes were decisive to give the victory to that idiot Zapatero, no, it is not too paranoid.

Actually, I think that if Rajoy thinks that by letting Catalonia go he will win the next general election, then Rajoy will manage to let Catalonia go. Not very principled, the current Spanish PM.

Anonymous Clay September 22, 2017 7:36 PM  

Spain? Who gives a crap about Spain?

Since the "Armada" was wasted, they haven't counted as crap in history. Spanish Civil War....yuk, yuk.

Do they have a military?

Who supports it?

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 22, 2017 9:09 PM  

Madrid doubles down. Nothing says "democracy" like charging the opposition with sedition. It's as if the Spanish government not only wants Catalonia to go independent but wants to make the separation as painful as possible.

A chief prosecutor has asked Spain's National Court to consider investigating for sedition demonstrators who led thousands earlier this week to protest a police crackdown on preparations for an independence referendum.

The complaint was not directed at any one person or group but names the Catalan National Assembly and Omnium Cultural civic groups as organizers of the demonstration that authorities say hindered the police operation Wednesday.

During the demonstration, there were pockets of disturbances and two Civil Guard vehicles were thrashed.

The two groups have been the driving forces behind the call for independence in Catalonia in recent years.

All those arrested during the operation have been released although six of them remain under investigation.

Blogger Lazarus September 22, 2017 10:46 PM  

"One cannot rule out the possibility of circumstances arising in a democracy that make negotiating a secession the least harmful of foreseeable solutions," Mr. Dion said in a 2003 speech in Madrid. (Stephan Dion, architect of the clarity act for the Quebec secession referendum)

Just thought I would put that out there again, so that people can consider it in light of the current ensuing events.

One thing I have learned over the years is that giving good advice is futile whether solicited or not.

Don't bother anymore.

Blogger Doom September 22, 2017 11:19 PM  

With Cat's I am well pleased. Not sure if the venture has legs, or is even economically wise... though I would rather cut my expenses if choosing my own fate would be part and parcel to it. They have earned my specific prayers to at least get their vote, an honest one.

Anonymous Clay September 22, 2017 11:59 PM  

You know, after researching a bit on Catalonia, it got me thinking about the Confederate States of America.

Let's send a few International Brigades over there, before they start toppling the monuments.

Hey guys, the girls are a lot prettier there, than in Afghanistan.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 23, 2017 7:40 AM  

National ministry of interior has taken command of the regional catalan police, because joint deployments of national and regional police forces must be under command of an national officer.

@Lazarus, Mr. Dion gave in June/July a interview to a Spanish newspaper, and well, his opinion was clearly not for an independent Catalonia.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 23, 2017 7:55 AM  

Looks like the secessionist vote in a referendum could be approximated with a high confidence level by the votes to JxSí (CDC+ERC) and CUP, and it's about 35% of the Catalans with the franchise. Too few people to justify a secession.

https://twitter.com/nmichavila/status/911296376373379072

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKWRYV4XUAcE91B.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKWRdWMXUAAXi7o.jpg

Blogger Galahad78 September 24, 2017 4:14 PM  

My prediction is that referendum results will be similar to those of 9N 2014: around 2-2.5 million turnover (it was around 2 millions on 9N, let's say that Spanish "totalitarian" turn moves another half a million - I'd be very surprised if participation reaches the 3 million mark), with 98-99% in favour of the independence, and about 200k of naïve No voters.

That leaves around 4.5 million Catalonian citizens who are not pro independence.

Couple of issues: "The only thing you can safely conclude about those 4.5 millions is that they have not voted, i.e., best case, they do not care about the result". Half true, in my opinion. In this case, with all pro independent supporters totally hyped about the issue, no able-bodied indepe will remain at home. I'd like to think that those not voting Yes can be safely counted as No, but I'll be honest and conclude that there will be a number of people who, really, do not care about the result. Either way, numbers for both options would be roughly similar. Quite in line with 27S 2015 regional election results.

"If you are a No supporter, why don't you vote and let the truth be known?" Good point. However, this referendum, as 9N 2014 was, is supported by only one side, who is calling all the shots. On 9N 2014, TV cameras catched Junqueras, current VP, counting the votes...I'm not for sure the brightest bulb in the room, but I can tell a rigged election when I see one.

I'd only vote in an agreed referendum, and with reservations.

Blogger Galahad78 September 24, 2017 5:20 PM  

By the way, couple of comments:

· Dockworkers in Barcelona and Tarragona are not tasked with providing provisions and other supplies to vessels. Therefore, this declaration is just propaganda. Unless they physically block the way to the service providers, that is. Which I highly doubt (but will try to verify tomorrow).

· MHP Puigdemont getting totally trashed on TV by, oh the irony, far-leftist SJW journalist Jordi Evole. I am, not ashamed of recognizing it, totally surprised by it: I thought this was going to be your typical massage-interview (Evole has publicly supported, many times, the referendum). Just a point: Evole asks Puigdemont about tomorrow's self-determination referendum in Kurdistan; Puigdemont, obviously, replies that he is totally in favour of it, Go Kurdistan!. Then Evoles goes on to remind him that, on 2014 and in Parlament's votation regarding supporting the Kurdistani referendum, he voted...No.

Which clearly shows that Catalonian independence movement is not about democracy.

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