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Wednesday, September 20, 2017

Crackdown and resistance in Catalonia

Spain is cracking down on the Catalonian secessionists, causing more neutrals to support secession:
I just got of the phone with Josep Maria Sole Sabaté, my friend and a leading Catalan historian and public intellectual. He was nothing short of breathless as he described the helicopters  flying overhead stated flatly that he was in the the midst of a coup being carried out by the Spanish State.

He wanted to get in touch with me and others “out there”  because he was not sure how much longer free communication would be available to him and other out in the street protesting against he Spanish central government’s arrest of members of the Catalan Autonomous government.

As of this writing at least six agencies of the Catalan Government have been the object of forced police searches and thirteen, mostly mid-level members of the Catalan government have been arrested.

The homes of two the leading architects of the incipient Catalan state,  Carles Viver Pi i Sunyer and ex Spanish judge Santi Vidal, have been searched by police.  The headquarters of the far-left CUP, part of the pro-vote coalition in the Catalan Parliament, has been surrounded by police.

The leader of the Catalan National Congress Jordi Sanchez and the head of Omnium, a major Catalan cultural organization, Jordi Cuixart, has called Catalans to come into the streets and they have responded with a massive presence.

The mayor of Barcelona Ada Colau, who has been  highly ambivalent regarding the referendum that is scheduled too take place on October 1st, has now come out firmly for the referendum and against the crackdown taking place.
This response would appear to increase the chances of what looked to be another failed vote for secession into violent separatism. It all feels a bit unreal, however, considering that the real struggle appears to be over which government has the right to collect subsidies from the European Union, the Spanish central government or the Catalonian regional government.

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103 Comments:

Blogger James Dixon September 20, 2017 4:08 PM  

"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." - Princess Leia in Star Wars

Anonymous szIlk September 20, 2017 4:08 PM  

What, like...you mean follow the money....or is it cui bono?

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 20, 2017 4:14 PM  

Spain moved into "Who? Whom?" faster than expected.

Globalism is sending a message to Spanish nationalists, too.

Anonymous VFM #6306 September 20, 2017 4:21 PM  

Just because Gus Greenbaum wanted more skim off his own casino didn't give the Chicago Syndicate the constitutional right to whack him and his wife.

If Catalonia gets away with this, it is stupid, but their right. If Spain gets away with it, it is murder.

Blogger Ostar September 20, 2017 4:26 PM  

I must confess to being ambivalent about when secession is acceptable, especially if autonomy is another option. What if a county of Texas decides it wants to rule itself and leave the state or the US? A city in France? A village in Israel? An offshore island owned by a millionaire somewhere?

How about if the area has been part of the original nation for a hundred years or more?
Should we have Mexicans in the southwest declaring Aztlan and leaving the US? Islamic areas breaking off from India again? Okinawa becoming a country once more?

I'm for people having the right of self determination and free association, and think most governments today (including the USA) need severe reductions in their power and control over their citizens and constituent states.

Still, too many small states throughout history has unfortunately meant too many wars as larger ones conquer them and they lose their freedoms and be ruled by other cultures again.

I wish there was some type of rule of thumb to judge secession attempts by. Anyone have something from Aristotle that I don't know about, maybe?

Blogger Ingot9455 September 20, 2017 4:27 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger DonReynolds September 20, 2017 4:31 PM  

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
John F. Kennedy

Blogger Ron Winkleheimer September 20, 2017 4:33 PM  

Catalonia is the richest province in Spain. They don't want to subsidize the rest of the country any longer. That's not to say the nationalist feelings all arise out of monetary considerations. They maintain their language and that's generally means you're serious about your separatism.

Anonymous Steveo September 20, 2017 4:33 PM  

add this to the list of proof...

Government hates a free people.

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar September 20, 2017 4:35 PM  

"Coup carried out by the Spanish State". Has to be a joke.

If you are a separatist, so be it, but at least have the balls to admit what you're up to.

The Catalan nationalists are organizing a revolution and a coup d'État against the Spanish State, which is the existing State and authority, not the other way around.

OpenID Micus Expectorus September 20, 2017 4:35 PM  

In terms of whether Catalonian secession was wise or not, I thought Spain keeping them was on the better side of that coin. But now the spanish national government is in the midst of pissing away their moral authority. I suspect they'll succeed and squash the secessionists, but they're giving themselves a major black eye in the process.

I spoke a year or two ago with a guy from Catalonia (we got talking because I've spent time in other parts of Spain), and I was very surprised at how insistent he was that independence was the right thing for the region. He made some reasonably good arguments, and since I didn't know a lot about the subject I just quizzed him to learn as much about his perspective as I could.

Other spaniards I know seem mostly indifferent, or maybe just irritated about the situation. This crackdown is probably got many of them asking, WTF?

I have no horse in this race. I think an internal war would be horrible, and if it comes to that I'd recommend to my spaniard friends that they advocate just letting Catalonia go for now. But that they should also to be very wary of immigrant influx into Catalonia, as that will directly affect the rest of Spain.

When I was there, I got to know an older gentleman who had fought in the spanish civil war, and was missing both of his legs below the knee. Good man, but his stories about the war were harrowing and still raw for him. Civil war is hell, I hope Spain doesn't trigger another.

Anonymous Faceless September 20, 2017 4:36 PM  

@Ostar

An argument for why Americans should have instituted an official language:

Catalan does not speak Spanish. They have spoken their own flavor of Latin since the kings of the Visigoths corresponded with the Eastern Roman Emperor.

In this case, that language barrier makes them a separate nation.

Blogger buwaya September 20, 2017 4:44 PM  

The Catalans have been part of the Spanish state, subject to the same monarchs as the rest of the Crowns of Spain, since 1479 - before Columbus, while there were still Muslim kingdoms in Iberia. Catalan nationalism in contrast is a rather new thing.

No Spanish state of any ideological flavor would have permitted Catalan independence. This reaction is not properly categorized as "fascist" except as a rhetorical convenience. Spanish liberals of the 19th century and Habsburg monarchs of the 17th would have done the same, or more likely far worse.

Blogger buwaya September 20, 2017 4:46 PM  

"In this case, that language barrier makes them a separate nation."

There are many multilingual nations. Consider China, India, Indonesia, and a hundred others. It is more the rule than the exception.

Anonymous krymneth September 20, 2017 4:47 PM  

Somebody... a lot of somebodies... haven't read the 4GW handbook. Spain just self-nuked their moral battlefield position.

Blogger Conor Foran September 20, 2017 4:47 PM  

@buwaya
It is not necessarily fascist. It is, however, hypocritical, much like the War of Northern Agression.

Anonymous a_peraspera September 20, 2017 4:47 PM  

"Should we have Mexicans in the southwest declaring Aztlan and leaving the US?"


Well, if we keep allowing millions of Mexicans to settle in our lands, it will inevitably happen. Whether it "should" happen or not.

Blogger Ezekiel September 20, 2017 4:51 PM  

I was joking in the last comment, when I suggested a Brigada Jefferson Davis.

I don't think it's a joke any more.

Anonymous VFM #6306 September 20, 2017 4:53 PM  

No Spanish state of any ideological flavor would have permitted Catalan independence.

No doubt, but until the current Spanish state, there never was a Spanish state that would have pay any lip service to being established on democratic principles. That's the core problem. You can have a Spain that is divine, patriarchal and closed, or a secular democracy.

This isn't about Catalonia. This is about whether Spain is endowed by God to retain Catalonia or if it is a Luciferian democracy. If the latter, they must let Catalonia vote and even secede if it so self-determines. Otherwise, Spain is lying about its secular freedoms and is, in fact, something else.

Canada did it the right way in order to exercise its principles: let them vote and hope they fail. Had the Yankees done the same, much of the South may have returned, hat in hand, following the cotton crash. Had they not, at least the Constitution would have meant something.

Anonymous Lars Porsena September 20, 2017 4:56 PM  

I don't really buy the Catalonian/Castillian Spanish language barrier. It's a dialect barrier. They are both dialects of Italian.

If Catalonian and Castillian (and Portuguese) are all different languages, shouldn't English, American, Australian, Canadian and Scottish all be different languages? Or Hessian seperate from German?

Same thing with Ukrainians pretending Ukraine is a different language than Russian. It's like calling Texan a different language than Jersian because they say y'all vs youz guyz.

Blogger buwaya September 20, 2017 4:58 PM  

"there never was a Spanish state that would have pay any lip service to being established on democratic principles."

The Spanish polity has been democratic to some degree (and episodically) since 1812. An ancestor was a delegate to the Cortes of 1820.

Its complicated.

Blogger buwaya September 20, 2017 5:00 PM  

"Otherwise, Spain is lying about its secular freedoms and is, in fact, something else."

The Spanish tradition is that it is, in fact, about something else.

Anonymous Patron September 20, 2017 5:01 PM  

I have to wonder how many of these secessionist movements (not just Catalonia but Scotland etc too) would be solved (or at least largely solved) by (a) getting out of the EU, and all the corrupting issues membership causes, and (b) a great deal of decentralisation and shrinking government. I mean, consider what VD wrote:

"the real struggle appears to be over which government has the right to collect subsidies from the European Union, the Spanish central government or the Catalonian regional government."

Let's suppose that Spain wasn't in the EU, and had a government perhaps one fifth the size and scope of its current one, with relatively little day to day stuff being handled in Madrid. I can't help but feel that a lot of the resentment and such that's fuelling the independence movement there wouldn't exist. There'd be some, of course - some of the SNP just hate the English that much, after all, and I don't suppose the Spanish are that far removed from British people - but I wonder to what extent it'd go from "resurrect General Franco" to "three dudes on the street corner".

Blogger James Dixon September 20, 2017 5:03 PM  

> They are both dialects of Italian.

They're both dialects of Latin, as Faceless notes above.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) September 20, 2017 5:07 PM  

VFM #6306 September 20, 2017 4:53 PM
Had the Yankees done the same, much of the South may have returned, hat in hand, following the cotton crash.



concurrent with the Slavery crash that would have occurred.

if the Confederate States leave the Union, they can no longer appeal to the Fugitive Slave Clause ( or the Fugitive Slave Act ) for the return of any "person held to service or labour". slaves would have poured out of the South on the now Constitutionally legal Underground Railroad.

and the British ( and US ) had already embargoed the Atlantic slave trade decades earlier. no way to resupply the plantations aside from Confederate breeding programs.

Mexico had abolished slavery much earlier than the US, that was the impetus for the Texian revolution and "Remember the Alamo".

oddly, Virginia was the first state to ban the importation of slaves.

before the US was even formed.

OpenID Micus Expectorus September 20, 2017 5:14 PM  

Yeah, let's just say that understanding Catalan vs understanding Castellano is a much bigger divide than understanding american english vs understanding british english. The english variants are generally much closer together, and when spoken slowly people can communicate no problem in pretty much all cases. That's not nearly as true for the former.

Blogger Lazarus September 20, 2017 5:15 PM  

"Give me the right to collect subsidies from the European Union, or give me death!"

Just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Anonymous c matt September 20, 2017 5:16 PM  

If Catalonian and Castillian (and Portuguese) are all different languages

These are really more different than simply regional expressions. They use words that don't exist in the other language. A Texan knows and uses "you" and "guys" just as a new Jersian knows and uses "you" and "all", just not together and with different accents. A midwesterner may say "pop" whereas a southwesterner may say "soda", but they both are familiar with the words used, and they are used in the same language. Even brits v americans genrally use the same words, ableit different meanings (e.g., fag). Castillian, Catalan, and Portuguese all use different words that are not utilized in the others' languages, not just using the same words differently. Gaelic, on the other hand, I would agree is a different language.

Anonymous VFM #6306 September 20, 2017 5:20 PM  

The Spanish tradition is that it is, in fact, about something else.

Yes, of course that is the tradition. But they are EU members, with the Presidency of the Council, no less. They are legally bound to identify not as something else, but as member democracy.

This means they are required by membership criteria to preserve democratic governance and human rights and submit to the obligations of the EU.

In other words, even though the EU has no desire for a Spanish breakup, Spain's membership in the EU leaves them no choice but to let Catalonia exercise its democratic referendum.

Police actions against its own people in defiance of the democratic process is not allowed.

It is a hilarious (by various shades of dark humor) tangle of conflicting intentions and by-laws, but the by-laws are bright line. Spain must exercise democracy, and thus allow Catalan to self-determine, to its own detriment, if necessary.

Blogger buwaya September 20, 2017 5:24 PM  

Catalan is definitely a distinct language from Spanish (Castillian). Native speakers of each will find the other speaker very difficult to understand, and if anything the written languages are more difficult to deal with. I find Portuguese easier to comprehend actually.

Even easier for me is Ladino (Jewish Spanish, like Yiddish is to German), which split from Spanish in the middle ages.

Blogger Phat Repat September 20, 2017 5:36 PM  

Not.Gonna.Happen, at least in the USA

Hope CA or TX or NY or any other state pondering such action is paying attention. You will be held accountable, lampposts and pikes should be avoided, though they may find you.

Blogger Stilicho September 20, 2017 5:44 PM  

Pigs always fight for precedence at the trough. Perhaps Frau Merkel should invite all the Catalans to Germany. Cut out the middle man as it were.

OpenID paworldandtimes September 20, 2017 5:45 PM  

If Catalonian and Castillian (and Portuguese) are all different languages, shouldn't English, American, Australian, Canadian and Scottish all be different languages?

Being mutually unintelligible is a factor. Various accents of English from around the world are mostly identical in vocabulary.

Slavic languages, in contrast, mostly not. As a native Polish speaker, I can have a conversation with a Czech or a Slovak in our respective languages, but we'd both have to speak slowly and clearly.

It's easier with micro-nation dialects within Poland, but I have a hard time following when they speak too fast: Silesian, Kashubian, and especially Highlander (Gorale). But they are considered dialects rather than languages because their differences are lie mostly in suffixes and pronunciation, and sometimes in regional variations on common words.

With other Slavic languages, communication is almost impossible: the "sound" is similar, as is the grammar and many words but many nouns and verbs are completely different.

For what it's worth, I was once in Ivrea, Italy and where English was not an option, I spoke clearly and slowly in my pretty-decent Spanish, but Italians did not understand me.

PA

Blogger buwaya September 20, 2017 5:49 PM  

For perspective, re Catalunia being Spanish from 1476, Gascony (South-Western France, including the major port of Bordeaux) was French only from 1452, Brittany was French from either 1491 or 1547 (diff re legalities), and such "French" towns as Metz and Verdun were parts of France only from 1552.
And Scotland has been British only since 1603.

Catalunia splitting is a very big deal as a precedent.

Anonymous BBGKB September 20, 2017 6:08 PM  

real struggle appears to be over which government has the right to collect subsidies from the European Union, the Spanish central government or the Catalonian regional government.

Its all about the Gibs me dat.

Catalonia is the richest province in Spain.

They are willing to take refusegees so it might not last.


OT: Navy nurses make white babies dance to rap, call them mini Satans, give middle finger.

"While some, like (((Tammy Elliot))), wondered if the punishment was too severe"

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article174085371.html

Anonymous Ages September 20, 2017 6:13 PM  

((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) wrote:and the British ( and US ) had already embargoed the Atlantic slave trade decades earlier. no way to resupply the plantations aside from Confederate breeding programs.

The CSA Constitution banned the Confederate States from importing slaves (Art. 9, Sec. 1). The vast majority (all?) of the ports where slaves were imported to the US were in the North. The harbors of New York and Boston were major beneficiaries, along with (((you know who))).

Anonymous Ages September 20, 2017 6:14 PM  

Correction: Art. 1, Sec. 9.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 20, 2017 6:17 PM  

Lars P
I don't really buy the Catalonian/Castillian Spanish language barrier. It's a dialect barrier. They are both dialects of Italian.

Yeah, no.

https://infogalactic.com/info/Occitan_language

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 20, 2017 6:25 PM  

El Bob de Kek Man Doh
Mexico had abolished slavery much earlier than the US, that was the impetus for the Texian revolution and "Remember the Alamo".

No. Not even.
Santa Anna triggered that revolt pretty much all by himself.

In 1835 it replaced the 1824 constitution with the new constitutional document known as the "Siete Leyes" ("The Seven Laws"). Santa Anna dissolved the Congress and began centralizing power. His regime became a dictatorship backed by the military.

Several states openly rebelled against the changes: Coahuila y Tejas (the northern part of which would become the Republic of Texas), San Luis Potosí, Querétaro, Durango, Guanajuato, Michoacán, Yucatán, Jalisco, Nuevo León, Tamaulipas, and Zacatecas. Several of these states formed their own governments: the Republic of the Rio Grande, the Republic of Yucatan, and the Republic of Texas. Only the Texans defeated Santa Anna and retained their independence.

Blogger Ken Prescott September 20, 2017 6:26 PM  

Given that Southron elites did not value not practice impulse control very well, a "peaceful" secession might have led to a much bloodier, nastier war.

Blogger Ken Prescott September 20, 2017 6:26 PM  

Given that Southron elites did not value not practice impulse control very well, a "peaceful" secession might have led to a much bloodier, nastier war.

Anonymous Crew September 20, 2017 6:27 PM  

Even easier for me is Ladino (Jewish Spanish, like Yiddish is to German),

Wait. So (((they))) always resist integration and develop their own languages?

I wonder if they have developed their own version of English.

Of course they have.

Blogger Serge_Tomiko September 20, 2017 6:28 PM  

Only a fool supports Catalonia secession. This is exactly what libertardianism was created to foster. Catalonia will NEVER be sovereign. The Euro is going to revert to something like Keynes Bancor, and all European nations will revert to using domestic currencies internally with the Euro Control Board adjusting exchange rates based on foreign exchange surpluses and deficits.

Catalonia will get their bullshit national currency, and their stupid culture. But they will be nothing more than the autonomous state they already are. Except they will be entirely separated from their brothers on the Iberian Penninsula, with whom their ancestors fought and died to defend their mutual homeland for a thousand years.

And that's the whole point. Catalonia, and all other future autonomous states under the United Nations, will never have the sovereign power to match the Third Reich and challenge the rule of international finance capital.

Anyone who supports Catalonia independence is a profound fool. You've duped into accepting exactly what globalism has always been intended to be: your permanent disenfranchisement from real political power.

Blogger Johnny September 20, 2017 6:28 PM  

I wonder how much of this is just a sign of the times? Frustrations with the EU, the weakening of nationalism as pushed by the alt-left, and so on.

Stupid as it can be, when people are unhappy for whatever reason, even if it has nothing to do with the established order they are apt to turn their wrath on the political system.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 20, 2017 6:33 PM  

Johnny
I wonder how much of this is just a sign of the times?

You just triggered dc.sunsets. Hard.
Because the answer is "yes".

Anonymous VFM #6306 September 20, 2017 6:47 PM  

Of course it is, but an equally big precedent would be for an open anti-democratic police state tyranny being allowed to remain a puppet-state member of the EU.

You appear to be overlooking Spain's EU obligation to give lip service to a democratic vote.

They can crack down after the vote if necessary.

Now they are ceding any moral high ground and beating the wife before she has a chance to prove her loyalty.

Don't misunderstand me - it is obviously messy, but sworn democratic principles are messy, but you either honor them or you don't.

Spain is violating them, all while claiming democratic membership of the EU and strict adherence to human rights.

By cracking down now, they are abandoning the moral ground but ALSO the strategic ground.

So, when the muslims back the violent insurgency, ISIS will be the ones to have popular support for their adherence to the spirit of democracy.

If Spain would just have waited for a vote, Catalonia could have a) voted no again or b) voted yes and found themselves shut out of the EU, losing all leverage and begging for readmittance. Two bloodless wins for Spain.

In the weird instance that Catalonia seceded and became a welfare ward of the EU, then Spain is at best rid of a headache and at worst forced to manage relations with an upstart failed state.

But Spaniards gonna Spaniard instead?

I don't see any longterm upside to this. It would be like Virginia forcing West Virginia to join the Confederacy.

Tldr; Let them go. They may not even leave.

Blogger Dire Badger September 20, 2017 6:48 PM  

I hope this is not the beginning of world war 3. Two socialists states clawing for power, just like wwII.

although, to be fair, I don't think Trump will involve us.

Blogger ZhukovG September 20, 2017 6:49 PM  

@((( bob kek mando )))... - My family were slave owners, with three plantations in Georgia. Based on family letters and journals from the period, slavery was becoming economically impractical from the early 1850s.

By 1861 my family held only a few slaves that were too old to work at any but light chores. They were kept because my Great-Great-Great Grandfather feared they would starve if cut loose. In fact the family will stipulated that these slaves were to be cared for from the estate for the rest of their lives. To this day my family name is a common surname among African-Americans in that part of Georgia.

Based on this, I doubt slavery would have survived, in The South, much past 1870 even if the Confederacy had been victorious.

Blogger buwaya September 20, 2017 6:49 PM  

"Wait. So (((they))) always resist integration and develop their own languages? "

Yes, actually, this is pretty common. IIRC there are even a bunch of Jewish variants of Persian. To be fair, this was also true of many minorities in the old world; even in a mixed population they tended to not integrate. There is an ancient Armenian quarter in Jerusalem for instance; and even Muslim sub-groups self-segregated, Kurds and Turkmen and Circassians are just some.

Sample of Ladino (Sefardi)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6Hnb6zeCxc

Anonymous Andrew Anglin September 20, 2017 7:00 PM  

2 basket-case EU members are better than one. And

Chaos is our friend.

Blogger James September 20, 2017 7:01 PM  

Ostar wrote:I must confess to being ambivalent about when secession is acceptable, especially if autonomy is another option. What if a county of Texas decides it wants to rule itself and leave the state or the US? A city in France? A village in Israel? An offshore island owned by a millionaire somewhere?


My house is on 1.2 acres of land. I roped it off and declared it an independent nation. I've been a bit disappointed because no one has seemed to notice.

Anonymous VFM #6306 September 20, 2017 7:02 PM  

Put it another way: a father has a right to take a switch to a son who threatens to run away from home, BUT the idiot son is more likely to run away if the dad actually uses the switch.

Then, when anyone asks why the kid ran away, the popular reason given will be "because his father beats him," even though the desire to run was the boy's own naive idea!

Catalonia would never run away if Spain calmly and patiently threatened them with poverty instead of jumping to violence.

Even if the vote cast in favor of seccession, they have a nationalist right to do it, just as they have the nationalist right to remain with Spain. Spain's behavior only ensures sympathy for the breakaway.

Blogger James September 20, 2017 7:12 PM  

Ken Prescott wrote:Given that Southron elites did not value not practice impulse control very well, a "peaceful" secession might have led to a much bloodier, nastier war.

And the fact the North INVADED the South is proof that the Northern elite was a sober and long-suffering group?

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 20, 2017 7:17 PM  

Sorry, but the account linked by VD has more BS that the Iowa State Fair.

That was not the national government doing. Some months ago, a Separatist loudmouth stated in public that the regional government had already an electoral roll for use in the referendum voting. Well, elaboration, use, and distribution of electoral rolls is an exclusive competence of the national govt, and the use of one without permission is an offence against the privacy of the citizens listed. So the loudmouth lost his position as national senator.

National senators have some kind of immunity against criminal prosecution, with a slower process. But the loudmouth was no longer a senator, so the ordinary law system could prosecute him.

From that prosecution comes the searches and the arrests done this morning. And the arrests have effectively decapitated the outfit that was organizing the referendum.

But there is more. Following EU regulations, regional govts have a spending ceiling, ceiling that the Catalonian govt was breaching, so the nat'l govt ordered the regional govt to send weekly expenses reports every friday. The one corresponding to last friday was not sent, so the national govt took over the spending procedures, up to cancelling the credit cards enjoyed by the members of the regional govt.

So, looks like that without using military power, the secession attempt is quite curtailed at the moment.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 20, 2017 7:21 PM  

Also, that Josep Maria Sole Sabaté guy has a sinecure paid by the Catalonian, Separatist, Regional government. Very far from an impartial source.

Anonymous VFM #6306 September 20, 2017 7:22 PM  

Based on this, I doubt slavery would have survived, in The South, much past 1870 even if the Confederacy had been victorious.

Free factory workers were far cheaper resources in the North than slaves were in the South. One reason why emancipation was welcome in the North is that it opened up the labor pool somewhat considerably and lowered labor costs. When an ex-slave was freed to compete for hourly millwork, he not only increased the labor supply by one AND could already lowball his competitor due to race-rate factors.

Slavery was not a competitive approach to the industrial sweatshop. It most certainly would have collapsed without Mr. Lincoln's tyranny. I think 1880 would have been the tail end of it.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 20, 2017 7:37 PM  

Also, I find remarkable that Thomas S. Harrington has written several articles on Catalonia in the same site, but none of them makes any reference to the problems with justice of the clan Pujol, like these ones:

http://thecorner.eu/news-europe/pujol-case-corruption-heart-establishment/39528/

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-spain-catalonia-corruption/catalonias-pujol-charged-with-money-laundering-for-hiding-fortune-idUKKBN0UD1MJ20151230

https://elpais.com/elpais/2014/10/23/inenglish/1414060276_959204.html

https://elpais.com/elpais/2015/12/30/inenglish/1451490584_763777.html

However, in this 2012 article (https://www.counterpunch.org/2012/09/17/catalonias-shouts-for-freedom/) he writes the following about Jordi Pujol, the patriarch of the clan:

"In this sense, we can speak of Jordi Pujol, the man who led the Catalan Autonomous government from its inception in 1980 until 2003, as being an emblematic figure within the country. A doctor by training and a banker by vocation before entering politics, this Catholic father of seven is admired for building the region’s (but in his view, his nation’s) modern political and cultural infrastructure.

His long tenure in office was marked, to the frequent chagrin of his critics in both Catalonia and Madrid, by endless triangulations and obfuscations regarding the once and future role of Catalonia within the Spanish state.

Needless to say, he never came close to speaking about independence during those more than two decades in power.

Well, guess who proudly and prominently marched in last Tuesday’s million-person demonstration in Barcelona?

You guessed it, Jordi Pujol."

I do not know about you all, but this Jefferson guy looks like a somewhat dubious source.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 20, 2017 7:38 PM  

Sorry, "this Harrington guy", not "this Jefferson guy". My apologies

Anonymous Steve September 20, 2017 7:39 PM  

Eh. I reckon it's a sideshow.

The Catalan "nationalists" are every bit as phony as the Scottish "nationalists". Any so-called "nationalism" which embraces feminism and multiculti and the European Union is fake and doomed and a waste of time.

The Cats are looking to deliver up their own people to the EU, to Third World invasion, to poz, and to globalism. That's not actually different from the goals of their current masters in Madrid. They just want to drive off the same cliff in a different clown car.

Spain is swarming with aggressive swarthies and their kids are being mown down in the streets by retarded jihadis, their women are refusing to give birth and the state persecutes people who don't celebrate sodomy and genderfreaks. And they're having a gay little slapfight over which particular gang of cucks gets to surrender their birthright to foreigners.

A pox on both their bath-houses. Spain doesn't need separatism, it needs another Franco and another reconquista.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 20, 2017 7:45 PM  

Frankly, the only remarkable difference between an independent Catalonia, and a very autonomous Catalonian region (current state) is that in the former the Catalan leaders would be able to nominate a Supreme Court that would exonerate whoever they wanted of all past crimes and offenses, especially the charges of corruption against the Pujol clan, currently estimated in about three thousand million Euros, as a minimum.

Basically, the birth of a Kleptocratic State.

Blogger Lovekraft September 20, 2017 8:01 PM  

Meanwhile, the archtypical crabby, condescending aunt, Britain's Theresa May, jumps in to undermine Trump.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-may-donald-trump-attack-11209524

If there is any new global mandate, I would like the first requirement/tenet to be that every lawmaker has to live with the laws they implement. No bodyguards, tax breaks, cushy offices. No. They have to live on the ground level slogging it out like their 'inferiors.'

But it isn't just May. There's a courage deficiency in the west's leaders (as my PM Trudeau taking centre stage).

Blogger LP9 September 20, 2017 8:14 PM  

Please God help them, please Lord.

Blogger Ezekiel September 20, 2017 8:27 PM  

Steve wrote:Eh. I reckon it's a sideshow.

The Catalan "nationalists" are every bit as phony as the Scottish "nationalists". Any so-called "nationalism" which embraces feminism and multiculti and the European Union is fake and doomed and a waste of time.

The Cats are looking to deliver up their own people to the EU, to Third World invasion, to poz, and to globalism. That's not actually different from the goals of their current masters in Madrid. They just want to drive off the same cliff in a different clown car.

Spain is swarming with aggressive swarthies and their kids are being mown down in the streets by retarded jihadis, their women are refusing to give birth and the state persecutes people who don't celebrate sodomy and genderfreaks. And they're having a gay little slapfight over which particular gang of cucks gets to surrender their birthright to foreigners.

A pox on both their bath-houses. Spain doesn't need separatism, it needs another Franco and another reconquista.

Franco hired an army of Islamic Moroccan sandniggers to impose his will on the white working class of Spain, letting them take their fill of white Spanish booty, blood, and pussy as a reward. Not quite reconquista material there.

Does anyone listen to Harold Covington's podcasts? Has he said anything about Catalonia?

Rich vibrant-loving white liberals who nonetheless have a quintessentially Aryan ecosystem, and the raw material to create a sustainable Aryan homeland... it's the Cascadia of Europe!

(If it ain't obvious, I'm LARPing like all Hell here. Everyone knows that Spaniards and Catalonians are not white.)

Anonymous Quotidian Solecism September 20, 2017 8:36 PM  

"If the Confederate States leave the Union, they can no longer appeal to the Fugitive Slave Clause ( or the Fugitive Slave Act ) for the return of any 'person held to service or labour'. slaves would have poured out of the South on the now Constitutionally legal Underground Railroad."

I'm sure the white Northerners (especially low-level working stiffs) would have just loved to see millions of unemployed, unskilled, rootless Africans pouring up from the South to look for work and housing in the Union.

Sometimes I wonder why the South didn't unleash more Africans, deliberately, on the North as a tactic. They could have encouraged and aided hundreds of thousands of disabled, over-aged, or otherwise non-productive Africans to stream into places like D.C., Philadelphia, etc., causing no end of tumult and internal agitation in the North.

Not just by the Africans themselves, of course, who would've been the least of their worries, but by Northerners displeased with the sudden influx. Witness the 1863 draft riots in NYC, in which many Northern blacks were targeted by (mostly peaceful, I'm sure) white rioters. Whether justly or not is not the point of course.

Anonymous reactionaryguy September 20, 2017 8:43 PM  

I hope they dont seperate unless,
someone a part of Spain manages to leave EU.

Catalonia is slightly less Catholic and more left leaning than the rest of Spain.

Weakening another Catholic nation? dont like it.

Anonymous Quotidian Solecism September 20, 2017 8:43 PM  

"Oddly, Virginia was the first state to ban the importation of slaves. before the US was even formed."

Because they were raising their own by that point, as were most of the Southern states. Importation was not really required after a certain point.

And as soon as slavery was officially ended after the war, the majority of the former slaves stayed right where they were, becoming sharecroppers, and remaining all but slaves, just with a slightly different terminology.

You'd think the Southern slaveowners would've foreseen this end result and simply beaten the North to the punch: End slavery, but immediately institute a "friendlier" (kinder and gentler?) indentured servitude or sharecropping system that theoretically allows for workers to buy back their freedom (that is, "buy out their contracts") after the initial loan (for the farmland) is paid back, then just make sure it is nearly impossible for anyone to actually do that in practice. I.e., replace actual slavery with the more modern and acceptable debt slavery.

And on the attack front, encourage nonproductive workers (the older and disabled former slaves) to migrate to "better opportunities" in the North, so Yankees could get a taste of the wonders of diversity up close. (I know there were already many Africans in the north, but this would have increased the tension exponentially.)

Oh well ... 20/20 hindsight and all that.

Blogger James Dixon September 20, 2017 8:45 PM  

Repeating something twice doesn't make it any more true, Ken Prescott.

> Based on family letters and journals from the period, slavery was becoming economically impractical from the early 1850s.

Absolutely true. It was dying. People are stubborn about changing, however, so these things take time.

Anonymous reactionaryguy September 20, 2017 8:46 PM  

Steve wrote: Spain doesn't need separatism, it needs another Franco and another reconquista.

Amen.

Blogger James Dixon September 20, 2017 8:48 PM  

> ...the majority of the former slaves stayed right where they were, becoming sharecroppers, and remaining all but slaves, just with a slightly different terminology.

Where were they supposed to go and what were they supposed to do? It's not like the had the resources to just pack up and leave.

Blogger Chent September 20, 2017 9:21 PM  

I am Catalan.

What Catalan nationalists have done is called "breaking the law".

What the Spanish government has done is called "applying the law".

Catalan secessionists, as any other leftists, are the ultimate crybullies. The entire world may consider them as victims, but we know better.

They are below 50% and they have silenced all the Catalan people that does not think like them. Then, they claim they are the only Catalan people, but Catalan people have a great diversity of opinions about the status of Catalonia.

It's like leftists in American universities.

There will be more secessionists because of that? Of course not. 40 years of giving secessionists everything they want has produced more secessionists not less.

I am willing to bet with anyone that this will have not impact in the long term. Much ado about nothing.

Blogger Chent September 20, 2017 9:28 PM  

By the way, Catalan is a different language from Spanish. It is my mother tongue and the language I use when I am in Catalonia. I wrote my PhD dissertation in it, for example.

The difference between Catalan and Spanish is a bit bigger than the difference between Spanish and Portuguese. Catalan, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Romanian and other are different languages derived from Latin (if you don't believe me, look it up in Google).

This does not mean that every different language implies a different country. We have 6000 languages in the world and the number of countries is less than 300.

Anonymous Llloord Bankstein September 20, 2017 10:02 PM  

DonReynolds wrote:
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

John F. Kennedy


Lot of good it did him .... goy schmuck.

Blogger Ken Prescott September 20, 2017 10:18 PM  

James wrote:Ken Prescott wrote:Given that Southron elites did not value not practice impulse control very well, a "peaceful" secession might have led to a much bloodier, nastier war.

And the fact the North INVADED the South is proof that the Northern elite was a sober and long-suffering group?


Until 1860, secession was considered to be crackpot stuff, posited only by the wildest-eyed of wild-eyed abolitionists and the fieriest of fire-eaters who wanted to restart the trans-Atlantic slave trade (which would have inevitably dragged America into a naval war with the British Empire, but the fire-eaters were OK with that); the mainstream, majority view across the country was that the Union was intended to be perpetual, period, end of discussion. It's worth noting that when various NORTHERN secessionist movements got underway here and there in the 1840s and 1850s, the same guys who went Johnny Reb in 1860-61 were very ardently pro-Unionist, vowing to return any secessionist state to the fold at bayonet point, even if they had to exterminate the entire population of said state. Secession was an abomination until it was convenient for it to be some sort of legal right. A "peaceful secession" would've only been peaceful until it became inconvenient for the Southron elites for it to remain peaceful.

And as for invasion, you kind of forgot the part about opening fire on Fort Sumter without provocation. (I generally avoid shooting at people without really, really good reason; they tend to get peevish about it.) The only reason it happened was to force Virginia to secede, specifically to get the Tredegar Iron Works. Again, a peaceful resolution to the issue of Sumter was inconvenient to the interests of the Sothron leadership, so they opted for war.

Blogger Phat Repat September 20, 2017 10:28 PM  

James wrote:Ostar wrote:I must confess to being ambivalent about when secession is acceptable, especially if autonomy is another option. What if a county of Texas decides it wants to rule itself and leave the state or the US? A city in France? A village in Israel? An offshore island owned by a millionaire somewhere?



My house is on 1.2 acres of land. I roped it off and declared it an independent nation. I've been a bit disappointed because no one has seemed to notice.


Sure, how about not paying yo taxes; local, state, or fed. Report back to us how that went for ya.

Blogger Lazarus September 20, 2017 10:30 PM  

Chent wrote:What the Spanish government has done is called "applying the law".



Have they actually tested their position in the courts like the Canadians did with the Clarity Act in relation to Quebec's secession referendum?

The court said the referendum was legal, as long as it was clearly expressed.

Blogger random Earth dweller September 20, 2017 10:31 PM  

Vox wants to destroy free speech media because someone trolled him on free speech media. Not cool. I've read him for years and bought his books. But he's lost a fan. Godspeed good gentlemen.

Blogger pyrrhus September 20, 2017 10:35 PM  

The "law" always says the Ruler is right...The right of self determination quite obviously supersedes any laws made by the Ruling class to the contrary, or there would be no right of self determination.

Blogger Lazarus September 20, 2017 10:43 PM  

random Earth dweller wrote:Vox wants to destroy free speech media because someone trolled him on free speech media. Not cool. I've read him for years and bought his books. But he's lost a fan. Godspeed good gentlemen.

Good Day, Sir.

Blogger James Dixon September 20, 2017 10:49 PM  

> Until 1860, secession was considered to be crackpot stuff

Complete and total BS.

> And as for invasion, you kind of forgot the part about opening fire on Fort Sumter without provocation.

Transporting arms to a hostile force inside a sovereign country is not "without provocation".

> But he's lost a fan. Godspeed good gentlemen.

So you just had to come here and tell us all about it, huh? When his email is right there at the top of the blog? Sure...

Blogger James September 20, 2017 11:22 PM  

Phat Repat wrote:

Sure, how about not paying yo taxes; local, state, or fed. Report back to us how that went for ya.


Well, I better get my foreign aid or I'll launch my homemade nuclear arsenal.

Blogger Lazarus September 20, 2017 11:24 PM  

James wrote:Well, I better get my foreign aid or I'll launch my homemade nuclear arsenal.

Just send the rockets and make outrageous statements. Tweet a photo of yourself with a bomb filled with styrofoam. Look determined.

Anonymous Sumtin' goin' on at Sumter September 20, 2017 11:31 PM  

'In a letter delivered January 31, 1861, South Carolina Governor Pickens demanded of President Buchanan that he surrender Fort Sumter because "I regard that possession is not consistent with the dignity or safety of the State of South Carolina." Over the next few months repeated calls for evacuation of Fort Sumter from the government of South Carolina and then from Confederate Brigadier General Beauregard were ignored. Union attempts to resupply and reinforce the garrison were repulsed on January 9, 1861 when the first shots of the war, fired by cadets from the Citadel, prevented the steamer Star of the West, hired to transport troops and supplies to Fort Sumter, from completing the task.'

Blogger James September 21, 2017 12:18 AM  

Ken Prescott, I don't know where you studied history, but perhaps you could post references to your following statements:

"the mainstream, majority view across the country was that the Union was intended to be perpetual, period, end of discussion."

So, there is nothing in the Constitution that forbids secession and the States entered into that contract voluntarily. But, they couldn't leave voluntarily? Since it wasn't codified in the Constitution, it would have been one of the rights reserved to the States. I would like you to post some historical data from before 1860 that shows that the majority believed that the "union" was to be perpetual, period, end of discussion. And even if they wanted to believe that, do you actually think the "majority" wanted to kill those that didn't want to remain in the "union"? References, please. Oh, and you might want to check out his link to see some of the actual opinions of Northern newspapers regarding their opinions that the Confederacy had the right to leave.

http://www.ditext.com/dilorenzo/yankee.html

Also, please provide antebellum documentation for your statement:

"It's worth noting that when various NORTHERN secessionist movements got underway here and there in the 1840s and 1850s, the same guys who went Johnny Reb in 1860-61 were very ardently pro-Unionist, vowing to return any secessionist state to the fold at bayonet point, even if they had to exterminate the entire population of said state."

What Northern Secessionist movements in the 1840's and 1850's? I'm aware of some counties in Illinois that wanted to return to Wisconsin between 1840 and 1842, but that had nothing to do with the Southern States. In fact, those counties couldn't even convince Cook County (Chicago) and they gave up trying. There were 3 New England secessionist circle jerks, but these were decades before the 1840's. There was also a Massachusetts county (Essex) that a few supporters of William Lloyd Garrison sought to secede from the state, but nothing came of it. But, most specifically, I need some references for how you think some people in the South actually gave a shit about these laughable "secession" attempts and would have actually prevented them from doing so at the point of a bayonet.

Finally:

"you kind of forgot the part about opening fire on Fort Sumter without provocation."

Lincoln had promised South Carolina that he would "keep faith as to Sumter" and deliver South Carolina property back to South Carolina. He was in the process of surreptitiously resupplying the feds in Sumter via ships. They were delayed by a storm. When the South Carolina troops surrounding Sumter found out about it, they knew they could wait no longer. Lincoln was a liar and could not be trusted. They warned Sumter they would begin bombardment if the commander and his troops did not leave. The commander wanted to save face, so the shore batteries began fire. No one in the Fort was killed during the bombardment. Some federal soldiers were killed after the bombardment due to their own incompetence or possibly as a deliberate casus belli. Similar to the Maine, or knowing that the Japanese would attack Pearl Harbor, or "weapons of mass destruction". Typical of the United States to need a self-righteous excuse for an unrighteous deed.

People in the US that think the North was justified in the War of Northern Aggression are not honest. They eventually fall back on "saving the union", as if they would expect a battered woman to remain in a union with a violent man, or because they "freed the slaves". Say, how did freeing the slaves work out for the North?

Anonymous Yann September 21, 2017 12:19 AM  

Some thoughts about some raised issues.

About Jordi Pujol and corruption

Jordi Pujol is without doubt the most important figure in the Catalan nationalism. He is smart as hell and a very skilled politician. He's known for having lived his whole life in the same apartment in the center of Barcelona, keeping the same old habits of typical Catalan urban bourgeois for decades.

Spanish Police has been investigating him for years. First and foremost, Spanish Police is not exactly trustworthy when it comes to nationalism. In the Basque Country they've been making up things and torturing people for years.

However, it seems that they finally have something about the Pujol family.

It's not very clear what they have for real, though (and that has been running for some years, so it's about time). For what it looks, anything real they have, it's about the son of Jordi Pujol, who seems to have been involved in some illegal activities. But as the son is not a political figure and he's not even into politics, they've been trying to link it to the father, which is the catch in this hunt. So the whole issue just keeps rolling and rolling.

About Catalan nationalism embracing multiculturalism

Sadly, it's true

However, this has to be seen in the light of cultural differences. Catalonia is a more like a mix between a French and a Dutch society, while center-south of Spain looks like the south of Italy. In Spain, like Italy, there's huge differences between the north and the south, up to point of being different cultures.

And the north independentist ones, like Catalonia or Basque Country (Basque people are a bit like Irish one), lean more towards multiculturalism.

However, when it comes to define this nationalism as "bad nationalism", take into account that the same could be said of USA vs Mexico, or Germany vs Poland, for example. Would you like USA to be under the rule of Mexico because USA leans more toward multiculturalism and it's a bad nationalism? Would you like Germany to become an Polish region because Germans look suicidal last decades?

We need Germany to be German. Not a clone of Turkey, neither a region of Poland. While I personally support Polish nationalism, think about great polish composers or great polish scientists, and now think about German ones.

Catalan nationalism is breaking the law

This is absolutely true.

However, laws have been tailored by the Spanish government to prevent Catalonia from having a referendum. As Catalonia is trying to make a referendum, they're doing so by breaking the law.

Basically, Catalan government says that they don't recognize Spanish laws when it comes to the referendum. Spain says they're breaking the laws. Catalonia says that those laws don't apply because the right of self-determination prevails.

Anonymous Toro toro toro September 21, 2017 1:19 AM  

I think a perfect exemplar of the cultural difference between Catalonia and Spain is that Catalonia banned bullfighting a few years ago. It's just not part of their culture.

Anonymous FP September 21, 2017 1:32 AM  

"the mainstream, majority view across the country was that the Union was intended to be perpetual, period, end of discussion."

So perpetual that they redid the federal government within 15 years of the articles of confederation and never mentioned perpetuity in the constitution that had been in the AoC.

Oh, and 1812 New England called, they weren't too happy about war, enough to talk about leaving.

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar September 21, 2017 2:19 AM  

"I think a perfect exemplar of the cultural difference between Catalonia and Spain is that Catalonia banned bullfighting a few years ago. It's just not part of their culture."

FALSE. Bullfighting was extremely popular in Barcelona during the 19th century and all the way through the 20th till recent decades, where its popularity started to decline, NOT ONLY in Catalonia, but in the whole of Spain.

The ban on bullfighting, though, was motivated by Catalan nationalism, since bullfighting is usually viewed as the "Fiesta Nacional" or a National Celebration. Banning bullfighting was just another chapter in their ideological crussasde against all Spanish symbols.

You have to know, though, that bullfighting as a tradition is relatively new, not older than 200 hundred years. Festivities involving bulls, though, are pervasive across Spain. Every region (except maybe in the northern coast) has its particular (crazy) game / celebration having to do with bulls. Catalonia isn't an exception in this. Many Catalan towns follow the "correbous" tradition, which are "encierros" where, in some cases, they will attach torches to the bull's horns. That, though, wasn't banned.

As said, we're all slaves to our cultural heritage and we tend to analyze situations by applying the politics and patterns of our own nation. I can read so many Americans giving opining about this without any real, deep knowledge, and at times it can get quite comical. This goes for VD too.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 21, 2017 2:27 AM  

Imagine how Catalonia has not bullfighting tradition that until very recently the only city in the world with two bullrings was Barcelona.

On the Pujol Mafia, all the seven children are tainted, and Oriol, the Dauphin, was a regional minister. The mother too.

Those accusations of tortures are baseless. GAL excepted, of course. Only another arrow in the quiver or the practical Basque Marxist terrorist.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 21, 2017 2:34 AM  

"About Jordi Pujol and corruption

Jordi Pujol is without doubt the most important figure in the Catalan nationalism. He is smart as hell and a very skilled politician. He's known for having lived his whole life in the same apartment in the center of Barcelona, keeping the same old habits of typical Catalan urban bourgeois for decades.

Spanish Police has been investigating him for years. First and foremost, Spanish Police is not exactly trustworthy when it comes to nationalism. In the Basque Country they've been making up things and torturing people for years.

However, it seems that they finally have something about the Pujol family.

It's not very clear what they have for real, though (and that has been running for some years, so it's about time). For what it looks, anything real they have, it's about the son of Jordi Pujol, who seems to have been involved in some illegal activities. But as the son is not a political figure and he's not even into politics, they've been trying to link it to the father, which is the catch in this hunt. So the whole issue just keeps rolling and rolling."

Excuse me, Yann, but Under what rock without access to news have you been living the last four years? Pujol himself confessed about having a fortune whose origin was very, very murky.

"Former Catalan leader Jordi Pujol is resigning all his honorary positions and privileges after confessing that he kept an undeclared fortune in tax havens for 34 years."

source: https://elpais.com/elpais/2014/07/29/inenglish/1406629028_653534.html

Anonymous A.B. Prosper September 21, 2017 3:19 AM  

VFM #6306 wrote:In the weird instance that Catalonia seceded and became a welfare ward of the EU, then Spain is at best rid of a headache and at worst forced to manage relations with an upstart failed state.

Catlonia is actually a wealthy province which is why Spain won't let them leave under any circumstances. If they did, the remainder of Spain would be a lot poorer

This is part of the reason why the South wasn't allowed to succeed either, the Union states wanted economic control over it

As for political independence and power, for the time being the only nations that have it are ones with ballistic missiles and a willingness to use them. Everyone else is under someone else's thumb if they are worth paying attention too.

This again is part of the reason the US will not tolerate either the DPRK or Iran with that tech. At that point they gain too much political power . Its also part and partial of Muh Russia.

However these conditions are subject to change and sooner or later, the US and its junior partner the EU and various people under our thumb will not be able to impose their wills on anyone for a whole lot of reasons.

This may in time also mean that if Texas or California decide to leave the US, well there isn't a damned thing anyone could do about it.

Whatever passes for the US in a few decades with or without civil war will not be able to play World Police as it will either be a Latin American style nation (Poor, Oligarchical, Spoils Driven) or Isolationist or not exists in its current form The EU will have different issues but will be in the same boat

Anyone thinking of resorting the old union at the last point is smoking something, the manpower, money and will won't be there.

Anonymous Yann September 21, 2017 3:41 AM  

Pujol himself confessed about having a fortune whose origin was very, very murky.

While this is true, it misses the details. And as it's said, devil is in the details.

Pujol inherited a fortune that he never touched. As I said, Pujol is quite an ascetic person focused in politics and the fortune stayed untouched for decades. He never regularized it as he should have, which is true, but he never took money from it. The account just stayed in the drawer for decades and decades.

The origin is unknown. Is it murky? We're talking about money generated half a century to a century ago. Well, if you have a house inherited from you grand-parent, for example, try to find the papers that justify the income that paid the house half a century ago. In case you can't, your house is murky, and you can be investigated by the police. This is the level of the Spanish police. Of course, the fact that the money lied forgotten for decades doesn't help to regularize it, but that usually would be solved with a nice fine... unless there's some interest in some political hunt.

Did he do the right thing? No, he didn't. He should have regularized that money. But the reason he didn't was not corruption, but the fact that he was not interested in that money, but in politics and nationalism. And so that small fortune felt to the bottom of the drawer and stayed there forgotten for decades, because he just didn't care.

And yes, he resigned because all this could hurt the nationalistic cause. Pujol is a person who lives for a cause, which is the Catalan nationalism. He is far from perfect, people devoted to a cause often have numerous flaws. It is said that he was a terrible husband and father who never had time for his family. But the portrait of a corrupt self-interested politician that the Spanish police is trying to create is just pure non-sense.

Anonymous Yann September 21, 2017 3:55 AM  

About the bullfighting

While Catalonia is very different from the south of Spain in many aspects, this is not one of them. Bullfighting was typical for Catalonia too, as it was in France.

However, it's not typical from the Atlantic Coast in the north of Spain. (The "San Fermines" are more about running side to side with the bulls, at least for local people, there's bullfighting but this is more for tourists and immigrants from the south).

Basically, it's a tradition linked to the Mediterranean Coast.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 21, 2017 3:56 AM  

Growing 3 million of euros into 3,000 million of euros in only 20 years reveals quite the business genius. Curiously while he was ruling quite a rich region.

However, Yann, that does not bother you. Well, obviously you are either an ignorant moron or you are in the tank for secession, God knows why, and you are willing to lie to support your option.

Either way, I do not see what else could be reasoned with you.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 21, 2017 4:05 AM  

Yann, you are beginning to be pathetic in your ignorance. Bullfighting is present in all of Spain.

The bull run in Pamplona was born because of the need to take the bulls from the corrals outside the town to the bullring, in order to have a bullfight. No bullfight, no bullrun. There is also bullfighting in the Basque Provinces, and along all the northern coast of Spain. In the Atlantic.

Examples:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaza_de_Toros_de_El_Bibio
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaza_de_Toros_de_Vista_Alegre
http://www.portaltaurino.net/enciclopedia/doku.php/plazas_de_galicia

Anonymous Yann September 21, 2017 4:13 AM  

The bullfighting in the Basque Country and Navarra was oriented towards tourists and immigrants from the south. It's not typical from those areas, and it hardly interested the locals.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 21, 2017 4:35 AM  

Because there were a lot of tourism in 1882, for sure...

However your attempts at distraction, I still believe that the main reason for Catalonian independence is to not have the Pujols in prison, where those scumbags belong.

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 21, 2017 4:35 AM  

there was

Anonymous NobodyExpects September 21, 2017 4:47 AM  

An example of "oppression":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC7rsudz-dU

Anonymous Yann September 21, 2017 4:49 AM  

Because there were a lot of tourism in 1882, for sure

Well, you're sarcastic because you don't know, but indeed there were. Urban cities in the North Atlantic Coast were a popular holiday destiny for the Spanish aristocratic and high class in the XIXth and early XXth century.

Blogger Galahad78 September 21, 2017 6:18 AM  

"I just got of the phone with Josep Maria Sole Sabaté, my friend and a leading Catalan historian and public intellectual. He was nothing short of breathless as he described the helicopters flying overhead stated flatly that he was in the the midst of a coup being carried out by the Spanish State."

Would be interesting to know his opinion about the coup (the real one, that is) that was carried out in the Parlament some days ago.

Anonymous Big load of toro business September 21, 2017 7:02 AM  

I don't know how far I'd take bullfighting as a cultural indicator thing.

Interestingly bullfighting is popular in Mexico too. IIRC, the most northerly active bullfighting stadium in the Americas is in Tijuana, near the coast. Just a few hours from San Diego if anyone's curious. I've always been but never got around to checking it out.

Blogger Arthur Isaac September 21, 2017 8:47 AM  

The no-go zones are going to get bigger. The West is fracturing. I look to Dearborn and Western Alaska. When a village can kill a gray whale with impunity, and after the State Troopers got ambushed in Tanana why wouldn't they, we can see the rejection of fairly basic western values. And the important part is that there is little will to reel in these "nations".

We're never going to observe the allegiance of the Anthem kneelers to civic nationalism. They're tribal, and they're serious about it.Time to wake up to the facts.

Blogger Daniel September 21, 2017 11:17 AM  

Leftism destroy traditions. They want to ban our "rodeos" here in argentina. They succedded banning dog races

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