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Tuesday, September 05, 2017

No debate tomorrow

Oh dear. I am informed that Andrew Anglin will not be showing up for our debate tomorrow. Quelle surprise.

I don't know if he's running or if he intends to reschedule. Perhaps he just needs more time to actually learn about the history of the Third Reich.

Labels: ,

85 Comments:

Blogger Scott C September 05, 2017 7:00 PM  

Isn't Anglin beneath your intellectual paygrade? I'd rather you debated someone like Johnson again.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 05, 2017 7:05 PM  

@1 Scott C

It's always a shame when you build all of this Advanced Weaponry and have nothing fun to use it on.

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable September 05, 2017 7:06 PM  

Saw that coming. What a fag.

Anonymous Andrew E. September 05, 2017 7:08 PM  

Mike Enoch is always saying that he's up for debate as long as the format is fair and can't be hijacked with sophistry.

Blogger VD September 05, 2017 7:08 PM  

Isn't Anglin beneath your intellectual paygrade?

Most people are. That's precisely why people like Shapiro and Walsh and Myers run away rather than risk it.

I don't know if he's actually running or not yet. We'll see. Frankly, I was surprised he accepted. Usually the posturing types claim they are too busy and important despite having issued open challenges.

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) September 05, 2017 7:09 PM  

Sad!

Anonymous Rfvujm September 05, 2017 7:10 PM  

I'm sure people on his side were looking forward to the debate too. What a disappointment, I hope it gets rescheduled.

Blogger VD September 05, 2017 7:11 PM  

Mike Enoch is always saying that he's up for debate as long as the format is fair and can't be hijacked with sophistry.

(rolls eyes) I did their show once. That was enough Enoch nonsense for me.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother September 05, 2017 7:12 PM  

A AHAHAHAHAHA WHAT A FAGGOT

Vox, if he does show up, I'd prefer your first question to initiate a deep, probing inquiry into why Anglin is such a faggot.

Blogger Jack Ward September 05, 2017 7:13 PM  

Then, he might live in south Fla. Right now I would already be driving north. Way north.

Blogger allyn71 September 05, 2017 7:15 PM  

Oh dear. I am informed that Andrew Anglin will not be showing up for our debate tomorrow.

Gay

Probably a swastika panty sleepover planned that night.

Anonymous VFM #6306 September 05, 2017 7:20 PM  

Did he decline using the royal we?

Blogger OGRE September 05, 2017 7:20 PM  

imagine my shock

Blogger Zimri September 05, 2017 7:20 PM  

I've seen pics of Andrew Anglin's playroom, over at Jim's blog. It is a vicious slur to imply that Mr Anglin would ever let swastika undergarments grace his skin. No, it's Rising-Sun panties all the way for him.

Mister Metokur (the other Jim) makes a pretty good living mocking weirdos like Andrew-san.

Blogger Zimri September 05, 2017 7:27 PM  

Ah poo. Since I was last there Jim (the blogger Jim) has backed off the photo of Anglin's loli collection.

Not to say it doesn't exist, but the picture is forged.

This is why it is good to check AND RECHECK before posting stuff.

Blogger DeploraBard September 05, 2017 7:27 PM  

Brave, brave, brave, brave sir Anglin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZwuTo7zKM8

Anonymous Johnny Mayonnaise September 05, 2017 7:27 PM  

Frankly, I was surprised he accepted.

You win either way, Vox. If he shows, he'll get blistered. If he runs, he's a pussy-boy.

Talk about painting yourself into a corner ...

Anonymous Nathan September 05, 2017 7:28 PM  

@14, You mean Der Weebenfurher and his very blond waifu pillowcases?

Blogger CS September 05, 2017 7:39 PM  

Shit. That was my dream media event. It's true that VD would have / will mop the floor with him (he'd mop the floor with just about anyone), but, as someone who's read many DS articles I'll go out on a limb and say he will reschedule. If he ends up pulling a Myers/Walsh/Shapiro-esque runaway I'll be surprised. I'm sure I'm gonna get scorn for this on this blog but I believe VD is underestimating Anglin a bit. This comment - "Perhaps he just needs more time to actually learn about the history of the Third Reich." - in VD's post is probably spot on (he's researched you and discovered that he's like a gr 10 history student trying to debate a prof), but I think Anglin is someone more like a Pax or Cernovich: He's deceptively smart and uber-focused on growing his brand. After researching you he knows he can't win a point-by-point proper debate but he may be planning some rhetorical salvo that amplifies his name / brand even more. So I'm saying cold feet but not a runaway...time will tell

Anonymous Andrew Anglin September 05, 2017 7:42 PM  

at the moment I have more important fish to fry. Count yourself lucky, VD.

see that flyspeck on the wall? That's what Vox knows about the III'rd Reich and related issues. The rest of the wall is what I know.

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable September 05, 2017 7:44 PM  

Andrew Anglin wrote:at the moment I have more important fish to fry. Count yourself lucky, VD.

see that flyspeck on the wall? That's what Vox knows about the III'rd Reich and related issues. The rest of the wall is what I know.



You sad little man. Go away now, you chicken.

Blogger tuberman September 05, 2017 7:46 PM  

Andrew Anglin = Ben Shapiro

Blogger roughcoat September 05, 2017 7:48 PM  

Andrew Anglin wrote:at the moment I have more important fish to fry. Count yourself lucky, VD.

see that flyspeck on the wall? That's what Vox knows about the III'rd Reich and related issues. The rest of the wall is what I know.


Are you on a quest to slay the English language? If so, you're off to a good start.

Anonymous JAG September 05, 2017 7:49 PM  

tuberman wrote:Andrew Anglin = Ben Shapiro

Who is more insulted by that equation?

Blogger Zimri September 05, 2017 7:51 PM  

Anglin could beat Shapiro in a debate. Easily.

Anonymous Johnny Mayonnaise September 05, 2017 7:56 PM  

If he shows, he'll get blistered. If he runs, he's a pussy-boy.

@Anglin: at the moment I have more important fish to fry.

Yep. Pussy-boy.

Blogger Raging Papist September 05, 2017 7:56 PM  

Well, that's too bad. I was looking forward to sifting through the nuclear fallout on twitter.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 05, 2017 8:05 PM  

@20 "Andrew Anglin"
at the moment I have more important fish to fry.

Catfish?

Anonymous basementhomebrewer September 05, 2017 8:05 PM  

Andrew Anglin wrote:at the moment I have more important fish to fry. Count yourself lucky, VD.

see that flyspeck on the wall? That's what Vox knows about the III'rd Reich and related issues. The rest of the wall is what I know.



"Bravely ran away! away!

the bravest of the brave Xer Anglin!"

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 05, 2017 8:10 PM  

The cliwn who posts here as Anglin is absolutely NOT Andrew. He's some gutless fag troll.

Anonymous Jesse James September 05, 2017 8:10 PM  

Perhaps that wasn't actually Anglin in the comments. Call me crazy

Anonymous Johnny Mayonnaise September 05, 2017 8:11 PM  

@20 Andrew Anglin: At the moment I have more important fish to fry.

Pacific clownfish?

Anonymous Lara Mycroft September 05, 2017 8:12 PM  

The clown who posts here as Anglin is absolutely NOT Andrew. He's some gutless fag troll.

Of course. But isn't it fun to pretend?

Blogger Anno Ruse September 05, 2017 8:13 PM  

More fish to fry? Shouldn't that be "more Jews to gas"? Wouldn't want to let that ridiculous "I'm a Nazi, look at me mom!" facade to slip for a moment, would we?

Anonymous CPEG September 05, 2017 8:13 PM  

"I think Anglin is someone more like a Pax or Cernovich: He's deceptively smart and uber-focused on growing his brand. After researching you he knows he can't win a point-by-point proper debate but he may be planning some rhetorical salvo that amplifies his name / brand even more."

I recall he once laid out his whole plan and philosophy, which he said was essentially based on using Alinsky's style to return the favor. Meticulous intellectual integrity isn't really the point of what he does; the point is to create a sufficiently consistent and subversive memespace to drag a large enough number of people in the right direction to create a countercultural movement.

Spiritually, he's described himself as a Serrano-style Esoteric Hitlerist, but I have no idea whether to take that seriously or if that's just part of the troll.

Blogger VD September 05, 2017 8:14 PM  

at the moment I have more important fish to fry. Count yourself lucky, VD. see that flyspeck on the wall? That's what Vox knows about the III'rd Reich and related issues. The rest of the wall is what I know.

Ah, so you're bravely running away ala Ben Shapiro. Fascinating to see you cuck so readily. Fake Right indeed.

Blogger ZhukovG September 05, 2017 8:21 PM  

Soros probably told Anglin, no more checks if he debated you.

Anonymous Überdeplorable Psychedelic Cat Grass September 05, 2017 8:21 PM  

Oh noes!!!!!!! Anglin and his trolls ran away! BAWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Blogger Six September 05, 2017 8:22 PM  

I suspect Anglin got some really good advice and a cold water dousing from someone he knows who possesses a little common sense and access to, you know, the internet. I doubt we will ever see this debate. Anglin may be delusional be even he cannot be that nuts.

Blogger Cataline Sergius September 05, 2017 8:25 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Lara Mycroft September 05, 2017 8:26 PM  

@20 At the moment I have more important fish to fry.

Yellowtail flounder?

Blogger Cataline Sergius September 05, 2017 8:36 PM  

Andrew Anglin wrote:at the moment I have more important fish to fry. Count yourself lucky, VD.

see that flyspeck on the wall? That's what Vox knows about the III'rd Reich and related issues. The rest of the wall is what I know.




Andrew Anglin is the Ed Wood version of Nazism.

Anonymous Grinder September 05, 2017 8:40 PM  

In the meantime, why don't you arrange a debate with an open bona fide communist to establish that Nazis are leftists just like commies?

Anonymous Jesse James September 05, 2017 8:41 PM  

>(rolls eyes) I did their show once. That was enough Enoch nonsense for me.

I have little doubt that Vox would have defeated Anglin in debate. Not because Anglin is dumb, but he's not as knowledgeable, and his debate experience is a little lacking.

But Vox, don't kid yourself. A debate with Mike Enoch would not a be a walk in the park. Your IQ is higher, but Enoch's argumentation and oratory skills are excellent, and it would get overwhelming. It's the curse of the INTJ, which I know all too well.

Vox Day vs Mike Enoch (fingers crossed)

Anonymous Ace Malibu September 05, 2017 8:51 PM  

If they're not trying to run you off the Internet globally, you're doing something wrong.

Anonymous 2106 Things I Hate September 05, 2017 8:58 PM  

I'd second that last point from Jesse, Vox. Written format, without a doubt. In the bag.

Verbal format, that's more of a crap-shoot, though my guess is that you are much more up for that now, rather than a couple of years ago, given all of the speaking you have been doing.

My concern wouldn't be that you would lose on the dialectical points, but that you could be on the wrong end of a "Gish Gallup"-style rhetorical run.

Still not a "loss" per se, but some lumps. Though you don't strike me as being a-skeered of a little dust up.

Blogger artensoll September 05, 2017 9:02 PM  

I've never seen them in the same room...

Anonymous Locke September 05, 2017 9:04 PM  

Surprising exactly no one.

Verbal, written it makes no difference. Anyone who thinks that Nazi's are compatible with an advanced, Christian nation is a fool.

Blogger Matthew Funk September 05, 2017 9:06 PM  

I see Anglin as someone who sees the real world as one gigantic MMORPG. He spends 14 hours a day online attempting to achieve goals of his own creation. He designs his own objectives and goes after them from sunup to sundown. The strength of his online character is exactly proportional to the buzz he generates, regardless of whether it is in support of him or in opposition to him. When the Stormer had its own domain, he at least had his own area of the internet to do his thing without interrupting other peoples' platforms. The destruction of his home led to his diaspora, which has made him a collective issue.

Blogger wisdom wizard September 05, 2017 9:12 PM  

He's scared. Watch his nitwits try to spin this with bullcrap about how you "weren't in his league" or some garbage.

Blogger Lazarus September 05, 2017 9:18 PM  

Anno Ruse wrote:More fish to fry? Shouldn't that be "more Jews to gas"? Wouldn't want to let that ridiculous "I'm a Nazi, look at me mom!" facade to slip for a moment, would we?

Well played, You are a way better Anglin than that other Anglin. I think they should give YOU the job.

Blogger The Z Blog September 05, 2017 9:20 PM  

I'll be glad to fill in for him. What's the topic again?

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 05, 2017 9:22 PM  

I'll be glad to fill in for him. What's the topic again?

Something about catfish?

Anonymous Jesse James September 05, 2017 9:32 PM  

All the endless Anglin-bashing is shit-tier. Say what you will about the guy's intellect, style, or gravitas, but what he has accomplished can not be understated. The Daily Stormer reached out to white youth en masse, and he had been doing it for years.

This whole flame war can be summed up as inter-generational miscommunication. If you think the content of Daily Stormer is 100% serious, you might be over 40. Speaking as a yoof of 21 years, I have some advice for both sides.

To the oldfags:

Lighten up a little bit. Stop taking every meme and joke so fucking seriously. Not everything you don't like is fake. Yes, some people like Natsoc aesthetic. No, that doesn't mean they're a fed. No, that doesn't mean they're controlled opposition. Due to the decadence and negligence of older generations, millennials and GenZs have grown up in an atomized and deracinated world, where the only place they find solace is in radical politik. They've been raised to be nihilistic. They've been raised to not give a fuck. So don't be surprised when they start destroying all of the sacred cows that have been erected for worship since 1945.

To the youngfags:

Be smarter. Be realistic. Don't poke bears when it's unnecessary. Not every happening is a chance to troll with cringe iconography. Not everything is 4chan, and it's not always necessary to signal the virtues of your purity. Be aware of societal tells. Be aware to what turns off normies to your ideology. And listen to the oldfags when they give you rational advice.


All that said, I dislike all of the infighting. I'm guilty of it just as much as anyone else. We are all men of the West, and we all seek the preservation of that which our forefathers died to protect. People on ALL SIDES need to stop fanning their balls, and do a nutcheck. We're on the same damn side.

Blogger VD September 05, 2017 9:33 PM  

But Vox, don't kid yourself. A debate with Mike Enoch would not a be a walk in the park. Your IQ is higher, but Enoch's argumentation and oratory skills are excellent, and it would get overwhelming. It's the curse of the INTJ, which I know all too well.

Don't make me laugh. As I said, I was on his show. People say Shapiro's argumentation and oratory skills are excellent too.

You understand that I have no problem taking on actual PhD experts in their fields and beating them, right? These media types aren't even within a standard deviation of the people I have no difficulty beating.

I suggest reading the Skeptic debate with the guy working on his PhD in Philosophy if you doubt this.

Blogger weka September 05, 2017 9:36 PM  

Zman, we do want a debate from you, or better, the book after the debate.

But not on the Fake Right or Nazi LARPers. How to get through the crisis now that is spilling slfrom social media to real lofe

Proposed title:Antifragility for Dummies.

Blogger weka September 05, 2017 9:38 PM  

Life... Correction

Blogger VD September 05, 2017 9:38 PM  

I'll be glad to fill in for him. What's the topic again?

You're not dumb enough to try defending the indefensible. And no, I don't care about the topic; I already debated Johnson on it. Anglin wanted in, I gave him the shot, and now it appears he may be running instead.

Anonymous Andrew Anglin September 05, 2017 9:39 PM  

@49, M. Funk:

"the destruction of his home led to his diaspora, which has made him a collective issue"

isn't that always the way? One might think the Jews would know better. Apparently not. Meme War has them playing their high cards more openly and way sooner than they wanted. Tough for them.

Anonymous Andy Angler September 05, 2017 9:46 PM  

If he does reschedule, I hope there's at least two days to prepare. It's basically going to be a showdown between Nazis and normal people on Nazism and left right placement. And Anglin memes if we're lucky!

Anonymous Steve Spielberg September 05, 2017 9:51 PM  

"I don't know if he's running or if he intends to reschedule. Perhaps he just needs more time to actually learn about the history of the Third Reich."

Oh God. Not another Holocaust lecture series. Maybe you could get a gig at the 92nd Street Y.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan September 05, 2017 9:57 PM  

Anglin heard Heyer's mom say she died of a heart attack and now he wants his site back from Mommy Speech Police

Blogger James Dixon September 05, 2017 9:58 PM  

> The cliwn who posts here as Anglin is absolutely NOT Andrew.

You think?

Blogger papabear September 05, 2017 9:58 PM  

Meanwhile Jordan Peterson and Bret Weinstein on the Joe Rogan Experience talking about alt right and other topics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G59zsjM2UI

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Deplorable Cents September 05, 2017 10:03 PM  

Dear Andrew:
Please let us help you.

https://www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-Third-Reich-History/dp/1451651686

Happy reading!

Anonymous Jesse James September 05, 2017 10:07 PM  

>You just don't have the life experience to see through him yet. Don't worry, you will.

hmm, I appreciate the future confidence, but what is there to "see through" exactly? Is he a swindler? A con-artist? Funny, cause he makes practically zero dollars from his "brand", if you can call it that.

So he makes little to no money off his brand, he has the Juden at the SPLC suing him for every dime he possesses, he's lost his website, and now he has every major hosting company, DDOS protection, and domain registrar chasing him to the ends of the earth to ensure that he doesn't have a platform anywhere at any time. And now, at his lowest point, the least he could expect was a pat on the back from others on the dissident right. Hell, even complete silence would have been fine. But no, instead he's getting roasted by all the edgy-not-too-edgy newright pundits.

Tucker Carlson gave him a fairer shake than this for pete's sake

Blogger Shamgar September 05, 2017 10:07 PM  

Who?

Anonymous Jesse James September 05, 2017 10:09 PM  

VD, y u delet poast?

Anonymous 2106 Things I Hate September 05, 2017 10:10 PM  

Clarification: I was talking about Jesse's note about debating Enoch, not Anglin.

Anonymous Rip September 05, 2017 10:18 PM  

I don't care who or what is right or left. I just want to restore the 1965 demographics.

Anonymous Jesse James September 05, 2017 10:28 PM  

>As I said, I was on his show

I know. I listened to it when it came out over a year ago. That's why I want it. He's nothing like (((Shapiro)))

>I suggest reading the Skeptic debate with the guy working on his PhD in Philosophy if you doubt this.
>I suggest reading
>reading

This is my exact point. Not written. A moderated live debate must happen.

Anonymous Locke September 05, 2017 10:28 PM  

Steve Spielberg September 05, 2017 9:51 PM
"I don't know if he's running or if he intends to reschedule. Perhaps he just needs more time to actually learn about the history of the Third Reich."

Oh God. Not another Holocaust lecture series. Maybe you could get a gig at the 92nd Street Y.


-----------

More likely 94th St and Madison Ave.

People who know the reference will understand.

Blogger newbietrader September 05, 2017 10:33 PM  

Whether National Socialism is of the ideological Right or Left. it is Left and so is the ALT RIGHT, with both denying free speech to people they disagree with, hating blacks and jews,....

Anonymous Jesse James September 05, 2017 10:37 PM  

Whether National Socialism is of the ideological Right or Left. it is Left and so is the ALT RIGHT, with both denying free speech to people they disagree with, hating blacks and jews,....

lol gay

Blogger Matthew Funk September 05, 2017 10:59 PM  

@72 The distinction is that the Alt Right doesn't hold it to be the responsibility of its adherents to platform its adversaries on platforms owned by said adherents, whereas the Left holds that it is acceptable to deny its adversaries the right to their own platform. Not hosting everyone's speech on a website you own is very different from demanding DNS registrars remove sites. Nobody on the Alt Right wants DNS registrars to deplatform the stormer, nor do we wish to censor Anglin on his site. Posting comments on someone else's site is a revocable privilege. Being deplatformed from the entire internet is something we oppose. BLM has a right to speak their mind but not in my house.

Blogger Mountain Man September 05, 2017 11:05 PM  

So let me get this straight: Spencer gets pounded by a cuck with a scat fetish.... and then runs away and cries on camera, Kessler gets bitch slapped..by a bitch , David Duke only leaves his trailer -mugging for the camera -when the feds are willing to pay him to and now Anglin flees from an online debate.

Wow...with leaders like this the Swastika Panties Movement is shaping up to be a force to be reckoned with. The future of the West is in great hands with these guys "leading" the way.

On another note Anglin was at one time as stridently PC as he currently is fascist.
In high school he was the king of virtue signaling when it came to calling out "racism".
Fathers....don't ever let your sons grow up to be gammas. This is what they will become when adults.
Talk about clown world.!!

Anonymous Thai Ladyboy September 05, 2017 11:27 PM  

Back to the shack I suppose.

Blogger Wynn Lloyd September 06, 2017 12:30 AM  

I'm glad the debate isn't happening.
I know Vox has tried to reason with them, but I still pray for them to see the validity of our point of view.
Vox is clearly the intellectual superior, here. It's not remotely close. Yet I still don't want to see enmity between factions. Of course, anyone could say, "who are you to want anything?" True.

What would be best would be for Anglin to call Vox and actually take a lesson or two on tactics. Then his enthusiasm and courage could be aimed in his he right direction. Right now it's being wasted on rhetoric that is not successful in winning anyone over. That could easily change with a little guidance from Vox.

Of course, that's assuming Vox would teach him; I dare not speak for anyone else. I'm under the impression that a broken-down ceasefire has possibly already wrecked any chance of another agreement.

I hope not, though.

Blogger Robert September 06, 2017 12:53 AM  

I'm willing to bet the "Andrew Anglin" posting here is just a troll. Regarding the real Anglin, I can't help liking him and I'll admit to visiting Daily Stormer occasionally when it was online.

Whatever else you might say about Anglin, he is a genuinely funny writer; definitely the funniest single writer the alt-right has (and considering how much humor has meant to the alt-right that's saying something).

Also, dailystormer was the origin of a lot of alt-right memes that have been taken up by others. I don't really care for the nazi shtick (and I was never sure how sincere it was), but Anglin has definitely contributed to the movement.

I do think he has an over-inflated ego, and some of his postings on gab lately seem pretty whiny (but the politicization of web domains is a big big issue and he has a right to complain). So to summarize, I have my issues with the guy, but I think his positive contributions to the alt-right outweigh the bad and I would like to see his writing back on the "real" internet.

Blogger VD September 06, 2017 6:25 AM  

Whatever else you might say about Anglin, he is a genuinely funny writer; definitely the funniest single writer the alt-right has.

He's not a single writer.

Anonymous JAMES September 06, 2017 6:43 AM  

I wouldn't be surprised if head Anglin edits articles for humour. The jokes across different pieces feel like the same writer.

Anonymous EH September 06, 2017 8:01 AM  

The Expulsion Of Andrew Anglin September 5, 2017 by CH [Chateau Heartiste]
[blockquote]
Currently, there’s a lot of in-fighting among alt-right factions. This is exactly how the leftoid ruling technoborg wanted it to go; a few targeted SHUT IT DOWNs of alt-accounts and the survival instinct of the remaining alt-righters who still have their platforms to speak kicks in, leading them to vociferous denunciations and ostracism of “bad” crimethinkers from “good” crimethinkers. ...

Eyes on the prime enemy. My instinct, when faced with a seemingly indomitable enemy of boundless malevolence for me and my kind, is to praise potential allies when they deserve my praise, and to ignore or chide them in good cheer when they stray too far off the realtalk reservation. But never will I rage at them with the passion I save for my true enemy, Anti-White Leftoid Equalism. Excusing one’s worst enemy while disingenuously railing against one’s occasionally intemperate allies is the way of the cuck.
[/blockquote]

(It's worth reading the whole fairly short post at the link above)

Blogger Cail Corishev September 06, 2017 8:40 AM  

"My instinct, when faced with a seemingly indomitable enemy of boundless malevolence for me and my kind, is to praise potential allies when they deserve my praise, and to ignore or chide them in good cheer when they stray too far off the realtalk reservation."

I think that was Vox's instinct as well. But it became clear after Spencer's inauguration party that they wouldn't accept any "chiding in good cheer." No criticism was allowed, even Vox's mild suggestion that Spencer made a tactical mistake but could learn from it. It's been that way at every subsequent disagreement.

I'm not talking about all alt-White, to be clear. I know there are some reasonable ones who comment here, who can agree to disagree on some specifics while shooting the same direction. But some self-appointed leaders and their most devoted followers don't want to allow that.

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