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Friday, September 22, 2017

The three types of superheroes

Alex Macris explains his critical theory of superheroes:
  1. Ordinary person accidentally becomes extraordinary through chance.
  2. Determined person becomes extraordinary through dedication and will.
  3. A person born with extraordinary gifts lives up to their birthright.
These are, respectively, proletariat, bourgeois, and aristocratic views of human achievement.

The proletariat sees success as a product of chance. "He got lucky." "He won the lottery." "He don't deserve what he got."

The bourgeois sees success as a product of hard work. "I earned what I've got." "I tried harder." "It's a meritocracy."

The aristocracy sees success as a product of nature. "Some people are born superior." "Blood runs true." "I was born to lead." Examples of aristocratic heroes are Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Green Lantern.

Examples of bourgeois heroes are Batman, Green Arrow, Nightwing, Ozymandias, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Black Widow.

Examples of proletariat heroes are Spiderman, Incredible Hulk, and the Fantastic Four.

Marvel's mutants are interesting. A mutant who sees his mutation as a mighty gift, like Magneto, is aristocratic but typically a villain. A mutant who sees his mutation is a random event tends to be portrayed as a proletarian hero. Most of the X-Men fall into this group.

Overall, Marvel's heroes tend to be more proletarian, while DC's heroes tend to be more aristocratic, with bourgeois heroes in both. Under progressive influence, these roles still apply. DC heroes act with noblesse oblige as aristocratic patrons of the oppressed. Meanwhile Marvel heroes tend to suffer from oppression themselves, as in much of the X-Men tales.

Bourgeois heroes tend to be least susceptible to progressive re-purposing as their bootstrap heroism is inherently a conservative message. Hence the progressive critique of Batman for being a successful businessman who uses his skills to beat up criminals, e.g. oppressed people. A progressive Superman can use his powers to defend illegal immigrants, but a progressive Batman is just George Soros.

This analysis helps explain why the Batman movies had conservative undertones, and the X-Men movies had liberal ones.
As it happens, Alt⭐️Hero superheroes will initially be a combination of aristocratic and proletarian due to the unique collective origin story. But there will be more conventional bourgeois heroes as well as time goes on. As with most of my novels and short stories, there is the story, the metastory that encompasses it, and the metasquared story that underlies the whole thing that is not immediately apparent to the reader.

For example, very, very few readers of the Arts of Dark and Light epic fantasy series are aware yet of the metasquared story aspect of the series, if indeed any of them are.

Labels: ,

158 Comments:

Anonymous VFM #6306 September 22, 2017 11:04 AM  

Unique collective origin story.

They identified as #WrongPower and got socialized medicine to pay for the surgery?

Anonymous Eduardo September 22, 2017 11:06 AM  

I always thought those were mere plot-jutsus to explain why the hero has superpowers... O_O never imagined this was proletariat thinking in disguise.

Anonymous DissidentRight September 22, 2017 11:07 AM  

What does "metasquared" mean?

Blogger Resident Moron™ September 22, 2017 11:08 AM  

"For example, very, very few readers of the Arts of Dark and Light epic fantasy series are aware yet of the metasquared story aspect of the series, if indeed any of them are."

Stop rape-rape-ing us and finish the book, you magnificent bastard!

Anonymous VFM #6306 September 22, 2017 11:15 AM  

The metasquared story in Eternal Warriors was one of global economics, for example. There were demonic powers, for example, that were inspired by, and, if you wanted to go that far, symbolic of politicians and philosophers of certain viewpoints and money systems.

Does the reader need to know any of this? No. Does it help some readers to better understand the objective truths the rhetorical experience of the fiction is defending? Yes. Even if they can't come out and identify it, when a series or a novel has a coherent metasquared philisophical objective, it may be more enduring and more effective rhetoric.

Blogger DeploraBard September 22, 2017 11:15 AM  

"progressive Batman is just George Soros."

That is a classic quote.

Anonymous CPEG September 22, 2017 11:21 AM  

"very, very few readers of the Arts of Dark and Light epic fantasy series are aware yet of the metasquared story aspect of the series, if indeed any of them are."

I can tell they're there, and I have theories, but I regret that there is currently no appropriate forum in which to unload them. But the fact that the magic associated with each culture appears to align with its distinctive vices sure has interesting implications.

Anonymous Johnson September 22, 2017 11:21 AM  

Determined person becomes extraordinary through dedication and will . I like that line

Anonymous Eduardo September 22, 2017 11:24 AM  

Well the X-Men movies were written by a Gay Liberal... Now go back to the film and see if you don't spot ideological similarities.

What are you Vox... The guy who wrote Star Wars story? Laying it all right under their noses but never showing them?

Anonymous CPEG September 22, 2017 11:25 AM  

"There were demonic powers, for example, that were inspired by, and, if you wanted to go that far, symbolic of politicians and philosophers of certain viewpoints and money systems."

The phrase "A fallen king for a fallen throne" stuck, deep. That's politics.

Regrettably, the heroes of that series appear to have only delayed Maomoondagh for a couple of decades.

Blogger Nate September 22, 2017 11:35 AM  

"I like that line"

only because you heard it from Vox in a right wing context... and not from say... Chairman Mao.

Blogger Nate Winchester September 22, 2017 11:35 AM  

Green Lantern would actually be in category 1 or 2 depending on which version you're examining.

Blogger August September 22, 2017 11:39 AM  

Well, there is another thing at play- that these are messiah stories, often written by people who don't understand the Messiah.

Blogger Darwinian Arminian September 22, 2017 11:43 AM  

". . . Progressive Batman is just George Soros."

. . . Except now with a face even more frightening than the Joker's.

Blogger Clint September 22, 2017 11:44 AM  

DissidentRight wrote:What does "metasquared" mean?
My guess? Consider the concept of metanarrative or metafiction and extrapolate.

Blogger S1AL September 22, 2017 11:44 AM  

It's interesting to try to analyze Captain America's origin story in this frame - he carries elements of all three. As does Iron Man, but from the opposite direction.

Anonymous VFM #6306 September 22, 2017 11:44 AM  

CPEG wrote:"very, very few readers of the Arts of Dark and Light epic fantasy series are aware yet of the metasquared story aspect of the series, if indeed any of them are."

I can tell they're there, and I have theories, but I regret that there is currently no appropriate forum in which to unload them. But the fact that the magic associated with each culture appears to align with its distinctive vices sure has interesting implications.


Especially given the series name focuses on the Arts of Dark and Light, and that the Arts include Military, Magical, Political and Religious Arts. Knowledge (Savondir), Love (Amorr), Light (Lutece), Dark (Raknarborg)...the magic almost certainly must be both an expression of and a key to understanding the metasquared story.

Whatever it is, it is what makes the thing rank up there among the greats. The great ones all have something beyond "really good 'worldbuilding.'" They have an ideal form (Aristotalian, not Platonic) giving the story objective substance AND mystery.

Blogger Andrew Brown September 22, 2017 11:46 AM  

Ohh very mysterious Vox, pray tell us on this metasquared story, or at least a hint?

Anonymous Aeoli Pera September 22, 2017 11:57 AM  

Really enjoyed that.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener September 22, 2017 12:07 PM  

Enjoyed that too. I read some very thought provoking things as a result of this blog that I never would have otherwise encountered.

Blogger Ingot9455 September 22, 2017 12:10 PM  

Thankfully this is a little bit more of a commentary on critical theory than it is on superheroes. For all his drive and training, Batman was born rich and with an ultra-high IQ, a more aristocratic hero, while Nightwing was born genetically blessed as the child of two top level circus acrobats and then luckily adopted by a fabulously wealthy man, making him a mix of aristocrat and proletariat.

Still, the three classifications are good for informing what stories they lead to. How many Spiderman stories could Batman/Iron Man/Green Arrow solve by cutting a check on the sly? And how does a writer use that to his advantage?

Blogger cheddarman September 22, 2017 12:12 PM  

We need a story line with Nate as a superhero, battling effing Yankees for Southern (Confederate States of America) independence.

Blogger roughcoat September 22, 2017 12:19 PM  

Ingot9455 wrote:Thankfully this is a little bit more of a commentary on critical theory than it is on superheroes. For all his drive and training, Batman was born rich and with an ultra-high IQ, a more aristocratic hero, while Nightwing was born genetically blessed as the child of two top level circus acrobats and then luckily adopted by a fabulously wealthy man, making him a mix of aristocrat and proletariat.


You're focusing on the wrong characteristics.

The aristocratic superheroes are all literally above men. Demigods, aliens. Green Lantern seems out of place on the list but I'm no comic expert.

The bourgeois superheroes are just men, men of extraordinary abilities and working from an extraordinary baseline perhaps, but still wholly men who rely on their training and equipment.

And the proletariat heroes won the superpower lotto, by getting bit by a spider or ingesting a formula or whatever. It was a stroke of luck, or a curse, that gave them their powers.

It's about how they gained power, not their roots.

Blogger Ransom Smith September 22, 2017 12:28 PM  

Fascinating.
I'm definitely keeping an eye out for Alt Hero. There aren't any good comic books anymore really. They're one of those things I think are closely related to make development. Either as an individual or as a father-son activity.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener September 22, 2017 12:32 PM  

Rainbow: ordinary, determined, or just born that way?

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener September 22, 2017 12:36 PM  

"Cocaine is a hell of a drug." - Rick James

Anonymous CPEG September 22, 2017 12:37 PM  

@VFM 6306

"the magic almost certainly must be both an expression of and a key to understanding the metasquared story."

I note that:
1) Magic is inherently evil,
2) Magic is sourced, or at least gifted by, the Pagan God entities,
3) The Pagan God entities explicit goal is to control and suppress mortals,
4) One of Vox's staple lines is that the Problem of Evil is no problem at all when you realize that the world is in the palm of a supernatural psycho killer.

I think magic is a tool that the Pagan Gods use to exaggerate a culture's distinctive vices, which can then easily be used as a hook to control them.

Consider the Dalarn. Take an island barbarian tribe, and send them visions of Valkyries when they die in battle. Enough of them die with smiles on their faces, or gasping their last words about what they see, and the shamans to whom you also grant visions (or pose as one) explain that this is the favor of the gods - and send those visions not to the most noble and just warriors, but simply those who are the best at raping and killing People Who Aren't Us and taking their stuff. They'll put the pieces together, and the culture will be locked down with the belief that raping and killing People Who Aren't Us and taking their stuff, is great.

Then whenever you want to use them to stir up chaos, all you have to do is send another vision (or pose as a shaman) telling them "The gods will be EVEN MORE happy if you rape, kill, and loot the people over in that direction."

And the orcs are more effective when they are willing to cast auguries by grabbing a random bystander and viciously gutting it. I can only guess that the rest of their powers often depend on blood sacrifice of some sort.

Perhaps the orcs were a little less psychopathic before they discovered magic. Perhaps the Dalarn were less barbaric, the Dwarves less avaricious, the Elves less narcissistic. Too late now. Now, they depend on those vices and celebrate them. And that is how the Pagan Gods enslaved them.

Anonymous Looking Glass September 22, 2017 12:39 PM  

While I normally would burn anything that used old uncle Karl's analysis with an orbital death ray, this is actually a pretty solid analysis. It's really all a discourse on Fate, so we really haven't left ancient Greece, but heroes to divide into a Nature, Luck & Hard work categories.

Heroes & Villains normally come down to their origin stories for a reason. What makes you the archetype in a story will revolve around how a person responds to the events of their life. The combination of events, innate ability and how the character has responded to them all. The more complex the reaction, the more complex the character will normally be. (There's a reason Magneto is the best X-Man character & Wolverine is the best hero among the group.)

Though the problem results of the movies don't fit the critical theory approach (which even the guy tweeting it was mocking a bit) because Batman in the post-Miller era operates as the "outside the System" hero. Superman has been a Messiah proxy for decades, which is always why he's so hard to adapt to film. (Especially when almost no one involved anymore is a Christian.)

The interesting aspect is that the structure of the modern Batman makes it so there's always a story to tell. He solves the problems the System can't handle without outright war. There is always a story there.

Anonymous kfg September 22, 2017 12:45 PM  

"What does "metasquared" mean?"

More properly, second order. Meta-meta; the order below the order below. The operator isn't necessarily multiplication, but I do think people will understand it as written anyway, and suspect that Vox is implying that, in this case, the operator is multiplication, that the base is geometrically broader than the capstone.

" . . . very few readers of the Arts of Dark and Light epic fantasy series are aware yet of the metasquared story aspect of the series, if indeed any of them are."

As I read A Throne of Bones I gradually became aware that it was there and started to look for signs as to what it might be. I haven't read A Sea of Skulls yet. I figure if I'm going to read it at all I might as well wait for the fully fleshed out version.

Especially as now finding the meta-meta story is one of the principle reasons I have to continue reading.

Blogger DeploraBard September 22, 2017 12:53 PM  

VD,
What did you think of Friedman's novels? Read them years ago. Some great cover art if I recall.

Anonymous CPEG September 22, 2017 12:55 PM  

@kfg
"The operator isn't necessarily multiplication, but I do think people will understand it as written anyway, and suspect that Vox is implying that, in this case, the operator is multiplication, that the base is geometrically broader than the capstone."

Well, it could also be a linear operator, like a derivative. Let meta = d/d(meaning)...

Anonymous DissidentRight September 22, 2017 12:57 PM  

kfg wrote:"What does "metasquared" mean?"

More properly, second order. Meta-meta


Thank you, that makes sense.

Blogger Skyler the Weird September 22, 2017 1:16 PM  

Very interesting hero groupings. I'll have to see how it applies to the Original NBC Save the Cheerleader Save the World HEROES.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 22, 2017 1:22 PM  

@21
How many Spiderman stories could Batman/Iron Man/Green Arrow solve by cutting a check on the sly?

Quite a few. Danegeld always works for a while. Until it doesn't.

There's a possible story arc: men of great means who keep buying off small time problems year after year because they are too busy to really deal with such petty stuff. Of course each one of the buyoffs is "just this one time". These men go on in this way for years, only to discover eventually that they have inadvertently funded the founding, growth and cancer-like metastasis of a horrible, monstrous, evil, civilization devouring cult.

When the time comes that money can no longer buy peace, Batman /Iron Man / Green Arrow must go to their respective secret places and get all that hardware out, because parabellum. Paging Cincinnatus.

Just thinking.

Anonymous Killua September 22, 2017 1:25 PM  

Anyone heard of the manga and anime series called Hunter x Hunter? It is incredible. I have read and watched a lot of shonen anime and IMO this is the best series by far. It has the best super powers system I have seen in all of fiction. The power system in this series is based on something called nen. It is a technique that allows a living being to use and manipulate their own life energy (known as aura). Each individual can develop their own superpower based on their personality. It has a lot of very creative abilities and superpowers.

Blogger tublecane September 22, 2017 1:39 PM  

@3-"What does 'metasquared' mean?"

"Metanarrative" (I like "metastory" better) is a sort of "story beyond the story(/ies)," or a story that ties together a bunch of different stories. You often hear pretentious people talking about the "metanarrative" of Christianity, because religions accumulate a bunch of little stories that add up to something.

"Metasquared" I guess has to be the story beyond the story beyond the story. Which sounds like hyperbole to me, but I don't know. Maybe Vox will try to incorporate all his writings, not just the Arts of Dark and Light series, into one big story. Or maybe "metasquared" is the story of how his parents came together to make him, the author of the smaller stories.

Anonymous Brick Hardslab September 22, 2017 1:43 PM  

Are you going to do a 'wildcards' type novel in the alt hero universe? John Wright would hit homers all day off that stuff.

Anonymous vfm September 22, 2017 1:59 PM  

"That they have inadvertently funded the founding, growth and cancer-like metastasis of a horrible, monstrous, evil, civilization devouring cult."

In other words government.

Blogger Resident Moron™ September 22, 2017 2:18 PM  

"One of Vox's staple lines is that the Problem of Evil is no problem at all when you realize that the world is in the palm of a supernatural psycho killer."

I haven't seen him say this, but it takes him up in my estimation. It sounds suspiciously like something C S Lewis might have said, but there are few Christians of any sort who take this avenue.

Most, when confronted with the question, resort to human philosophy to try to answer it; a category error, a strategic blunder, and a fatal tactical mistake, all in one.

A good friend came to the church because in his teenage years an older friend, somewhat fixated on the illuminati/new world order, had told him of the encroaching era of banking consolidation. As he watched this happen, his own investigation of history led him to the realisation of a multi-generational conspiracy. But his problem was that he knew, as a keen student of human nature, that no purely human organisation is able to maintain its character and purpose over centuries.

Hence his conclusion that the conspiracy is more than human. Having come to this conclusion he decided he wanted to on the winning side, and so he came to church.

Blogger Thucydides September 22, 2017 2:29 PM  

I once read a review (sorry, can't remember the source) which essentially said that the characters in the DC Universe were gods becoming men, while the Marvel Universe had men becoming gods.

This always struck me as an interesting idea to explore, especially since the framing almost begs the question, "which transition is harder; gods to men or men to gods"?

While somewhat tangental to the "class" based analysis presented above, as I think about it the two ideas mesh somewhat, "aristocratic" heroes would fit into the gods becoming men category, while the "proletariat" heroes are men becoming gods. The third class could go either way (do exceptional people who train hard to develop powers use them for good or evil? Do they become godlike or have their humanity enhanced as a result of their transformation?). I can see there are lots of direction these ideas can go.

Anonymous CPEG September 22, 2017 2:35 PM  

@Resident Moron
He's said it a few times, in a few different ways.
This post from a few years back is more in-depth.

Blogger FSL September 22, 2017 2:36 PM  

Story: Marcus trying to prove himself as a true Valerian, a godly man and find true love.

Metastory: Retelling of the Roman Civil War

M^2: Watchers as globalists manipulating events and people in order to accomplish their own ends, opening the transdimensional gate, analogous to our own globalists trying to achieve a Post-Christian post-scarcity society.

-my best shot so far

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) September 22, 2017 2:41 PM  

errrr, according to his own definitions, he doesn't even know how to characterize Ozymandias.

Ozymandias' superpower isn't expenditure of effort.

Ozymandias' superpower is being the highest IQ in the history of the world. that is, by definition, his "Nature" and "being born superior". which also goes a long ways towards explaining why Ozy doesn't mind murdering proles by the millions;
they aren't quite the same species, in his mind.

what does it really matter if 9 million New Yorkers die?


agreed about Green Lantern. that origin story is always about accidental contact of a normal schmoe with a dying alien / magical being who bequeaths the Lantern to the human due to the happenstance that he happens to be standing nearby when the alien was dying.


OT:
bob- well, i'm not gay.

Nate - neither am i.

[ both look at Lovekraft ]

https://www.memecenter.com/fun/685985/1-out-of-3-people-is-gay

Anonymous trev006 September 22, 2017 2:46 PM  

Guys: maybe no one notices this because they don't use Google, but have you tried browsing it for Infogalactic articles?

This is what a search for Infogalactic + Katana looks like on Google:

https://www.google.ca/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA693CA693&q=katana+infogalactic&oq=katana+infogalactic&gs_l=psy-ab.3...1212.3883.0.3954.18.17.1.0.0.0.138.1440.6j9.15.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..2.11.986...0j0i67k1j33i160k1.0.0pNBD6ORWf8

And this is what it looks like on DuckDuckGo:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=katana+infogalactic&t=h_&ia=web

It's not even hidden: Google hides the most pertinent and obvious answer to my search, over multiple subjects, when using DuckDuckGo or Infogalactic itself immediately brings up the appropriate article.

I'm surprised this kind of algorithm abuse doesn't get more publicity.

Anonymous story time September 22, 2017 2:47 PM  

"Metasquared" I guess has to be the story beyond the story beyond the story. Which sounds like hyperbole to me, but I don't know. "


"Diegesis is multi-levelled in narrative fiction. Genette distinguishes between three "diegetic levels". The extradiegetic level (the level of the narrative's telling) is, according to Prince, "external to (not part of) any diegesis." One might think of this as what we commonly understand to be the narrator's level, the level at which exists a narrator who is not part of the story being told. The diegetic level or intradiegetic level is understood as the level of the characters, their thoughts and actions. The metadiegetic level or hypodiegetic level is that part of a diegesis that is embedded in another one and is often understood as a story within a story, as when a diegetic narrator himself/herself tells a story."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diegesis




Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable September 22, 2017 2:48 PM  

Hence his conclusion that the conspiracy is more than human. Having come to this conclusion he decided he wanted to on the winning side, and so he came to church.

That's a great story. I've come to the same conclusion, and I think I probably would have even without a Christian upbringing. You can't sustain a purely human conspiracy across generations. Men just aren't that smart or that loyal.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 22, 2017 2:57 PM  

If the metasquared narrative is the story of the ancient ones fighting for the transdimensional gate, well, some of us caught it. Not sure how you could miss it, really.

Anonymous Damn Crackers September 22, 2017 3:05 PM  

@34 - Danegeld would be a great name/character for a comic book. Villain starts tearing up a city, Danegeld just comes out of nowhere, hands him a check, and flies away.

Blogger Beefy Levinson September 22, 2017 3:07 PM  

Doctor Doom is the Marvel Universe's greatest superhero.

Blogger Resident Moron™ September 22, 2017 3:10 PM  

@CPEG

Thanks for that.

It accords well with my own experience.

Back in 2000 I had an Indian (dot not feather, from Jersey) boss. Totally a-religious, and his boss was a Vietnam vet from out west somewhere. Three of us at dinner in some restaurant and his boss asks me why I'm a Christian. I'd been thinking along a similar track so I said to him:

"I think that everyone looks at the world, with all that's right with it and all that is so wrong with it, and consciously or unconsciously we conclude: if there's no Devil then there's no God. If there isn't an active malign supernatural intelligence working to our detriment, if God did all this to us his own self, then he's a monster and we should have nothing to do with such a person if he did exist. This is why the Devil hides himself from us.

But I've seen the Devil's work close enough to know he's there."

He looked at me for about 10 long seconds, nodded once, and went back to eating.

Coming back to superheros, it long ago struck me that the various pantheons of pagan gods have this in common: they're just people with more power. As Vox notes, Christianity is different. Christ is quantitatively and qualitatively different from us, not just quantitatively.

In spite of the insight mentioned above about a type of superhero being a god-becoming-man story, all superhero stories are about men becoming gods; they're the wish-fulfillment fantasies ("What do all men with power want? More power.") of un-sanctified minds. Magic is the wish-fulfillment fantasy of an un-sanctified mind. Science fiction is the wish-fulfillment fantasy of an un-sanctified mind, albeit one with marginally more chance of becoming true some day.

What has our scientific/technological progress done for us in moral terms?

Nothing.

Blogger Nick S September 22, 2017 3:10 PM  

I just got, for the first time, a message from my ESET NOD32 antivirus saying the website 4.bp.blogspot.com had been blocked, when I navigated here the same way I have been doing it since I started using Brave Browser. Not a problem for me, but I thought you guys should be aware, whether or not that address is familiar to you (it's not familiar to me), with all the nefarious internet strangeness goings on.

Blogger Ingot9455 September 22, 2017 3:24 PM  

@43 Well, Green Lantern is 'chosen' to be the Green Lantern because he is without fear - he's a hotshot fighter pilot now flying the most dangerous experimental planes imaginable. He happens to be the closest person available possessing a very critical trained/inborn quality.

Blogger Lovekraft September 22, 2017 3:25 PM  

From Milo's website:

https://milo.yiannopoulos.net/2017/09/exit-right-to-comicgate/

Comicgate is the co-ordinated attack on D & C. Word is spreading fast about this.

Blogger S1AL September 22, 2017 3:29 PM  

Having not seen the term before, I'm guessing that the meta-squared narrative is the notion of a pattern to the themes of history - if the emancipation of labor (Marx) is identified as a meta-narrative, then the ongoing pattern of conflict between analogous ideas (rise of the middle class, divine right to rule, etc.) is a meta-squared narrative.

If applied to the spiritual perspective, one could reference Daniel and the greater powers, including the spirits of nations, and the historical patterns of their rises and falls. The Meta-squared native here would be the underlying story of those conflicts in the grand spiritual plane.

How this applies to Selenoth I leave to those who've actually read enough of it.

Anonymous CPEG September 22, 2017 3:29 PM  

@Snidely
I think that's the metastory.
The metasquared story... is the tools that they use.

Blogger S1AL September 22, 2017 3:31 PM  

"He happens to be the closest person available possessing a very critical trained/inborn quality."

Yeah, there may be a "champion" category that falls outside of the other three.

Anonymous Niburu September 22, 2017 3:31 PM  

When I first saw Suicide Squad I disliked it as only two of them were No. 1/3s while the rest were No. 2s. Then I realized I was thinking in terms of DC imitating Marvel. After that correction I like the flick now.

Blogger Ingot9455 September 22, 2017 3:33 PM  

@34 @48 I like the idea of Danegeld.

I was thinking more, though, of examples like the excellent Justice League Unlimited episode where Batman is captured by the Legion Of Doom and spends his time psychologically manipulating them against one another to which villains are particularly vulnerable. Luthor goes outside the Ultra-Humanite's moral qualms and that gives Batman the opportunity to buy him off and break the enemy team. It's not a Danegeld situation because both keep their bargain. Later, the Ultra-Humanite goes delivering Christmas toys with the Flash.

Anonymous CPEG September 22, 2017 3:34 PM  

@Resident Moron

"What has our scientific/technological progress done for us in moral terms?

Nothing."

Heh.
Remember Nobel.
"When I invented this dynamite thing, I was hoping people would use it for peace."

The cure for human nature could never be inventions. Invent a better plowshare, and it'll be five minutes before some jackass with a hammer comes by and invents a better sword.

Anonymous kfg September 22, 2017 3:38 PM  

"If the metasquared narrative is the story of the ancient ones fighting for the transdimensional gate, well, some of us caught it."

That's the story visible level of the meta story.

There are people in the story who believe they understand the meta-story. That's where their theology comes from. The meta-story is where magic and the gods live. The "real" powers behind the scenes moving the story around. People in the story see it through a glass darkly and try to make sense of where they fit in the meta-story.

The revelation of the Ancient Ones misguides people in the story into thinking they have discovered the meta-meta-story.


They cannot see through the meta-story to the meta-meta story, where the real power is, the level at which even the gods are just at the story level. The level from which the story view of the meta-story is obviously distortions and lies.

Call it Truth.

I suspect Vox is aiming at Pullman at least as much as he is at Rape Rape.

Blogger Cluebat Vanexodar September 22, 2017 3:40 PM  

Tempting to comment on the meta-meta, but I would not want to be a spoiler.
I will venture to say my opinion on the Michaelines and warhawk sorcery is: both are light. As is one other powerful elvish figure that I can think of.

Anonymous kfg September 22, 2017 3:42 PM  

"The metasquared story... is the tools that they use."

If there is anything to what I have written above, the meta-meta story is where we see that the Ancient Ones are the tools of the meta-meta story. Just more pawns in the real game.

Anonymous BBGKB September 22, 2017 3:43 PM  

Vox never misses a chance to tie in one storyline to another like when the legionnaire leader checked out the bible written by the nuclear elf mage.

Green Lantern would actually be in category 1 or 2 depending

What sort of merit based testing does the ring do? Reminds me of my recent gab reply:

I was a medic in the military so I killed less than girl/black/brown medics ;)

In other news, in recognition for all the US service members John McCain has killed the VA has made him an honorary Black VA Doctor.

". . . Progressive Batman is just George Soros."

He dropped the BatObamaphones with GPS directions to Europe over shitistan.

Are you going to do a 'wildcards' type novel in the alt hero universe?

The Koran Burner- Has kinetic-pyrokinetic abilities but must use korans/origami folded pieces of korans.

Blogger Johnny September 22, 2017 3:56 PM  

Then there is always Tarzan. Like James Bond, a British aristocrat by birth in the original version.

Anonymous CPEG September 22, 2017 3:57 PM  

@kfg
"If there is anything to what I have written above, the meta-meta story is where we see that the Ancient Ones are the tools of the meta-meta story. Just more pawns in the real game."

Astute.
They are pawns that think they're players.

The ending of ATOB tasted a little odd at first... I thought to myself, why would that creature allow Corvus to take the time to dismember him, pour the oil, and light the torch? He could have killed him at any point before that.

Then I realized that this was an immortal and powerful creature who had just got its hooks into basically the entire Church. It seemed entirely probably that it was so arrogant that it simply did not believe Corvus would refuse its offers and threats, until the oil was already lit.

Like with everybody else, this weakness is a nose ring.

Blogger John Wright September 22, 2017 4:02 PM  

Shakespeare said it this way: some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them.

Blogger Jeff Weimer September 22, 2017 4:09 PM  

@23 - I would put Green Lantern in the Proletariat. He was a normal human who was gifted those powers through the ring.

Blogger Chris McCullough September 22, 2017 4:10 PM  

Green Lantern is a bourgeois hero, the ring seeks out people who exemplify courage, and they have to be trained to actually use the thing.

Blogger Resident Moron™ September 22, 2017 4:10 PM  

John Wright wrote:Shakespeare said it this way: some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them.

I always thought he was plagiarising Christ in Matthew 19: 12

"For there are some eunuchs, who were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, who were made eunuchs of men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs"

Nothing new under the sun.

Anonymous JeremiahEmbs September 22, 2017 4:29 PM  

Commenting on #53 From Lovecraft

Wow dude. I didn't know what is going on over there. Playing catch up. Astounding. It's almost exactly what's going on with Vox and I and Vox says delArroz being targeted too? And Vox is doing a comic and I'm in the comic business. And Vox knows Milo who is covering the comic story. And the connecting event was Charlottesville and the type of people that were there just happen to be on GAB and are the kind of people messing with us? What are the odds? I think we need to compare notes more carefully.

Blogger VD September 22, 2017 4:30 PM  

I thought to myself, why would that creature allow Corvus to take the time to dismember him, pour the oil, and light the torch? He could have killed him at any point before that.

I got into a discussion of that with a reader once. My conclusion is that anyone who thinks it unlikely, much less impossible, has not been around genuinely powerful people very often. Many of them genuinely cannot fathom being legitimately challenged or threatened, and they interpret all threats as bluffs and posturing.

Anonymous Brick Hardslab September 22, 2017 4:45 PM  

Sabretooth is the greatest hero. Every episode of x-men should be him slapping the smug off wolverine.

Blogger Lovekraft September 22, 2017 4:47 PM  

@70 JeremiahEbbs:

I noticed numerous new usernames on this blog a few days ago. Let them try to disrupt. Like puppies biting at ankles. One can easily see how they try to incite (call you names, for example).

D & C's latest video actually mentions how the SJWs try to honeypot you to get your guard down, or hope to wear your patience down to where you have something they can pin on you.

Sad little puppies.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) September 22, 2017 4:53 PM  

Ingot9455 September 22, 2017 3:24 PM
He happens to be the closest person available possessing a very critical trained/inborn quality.



exactly.

there can be a significant genetic component to Aggressiveness ( MAOA-L )BUT that's not the same thing as Bravery.

you can be trained to be 'brave'. you can be trained to stand your ground or charge the hill.

and, had he not been there, the alien would have died without passing the Lantern on at all. which, given that there are thousands upon thousand of Lanterns actually isn't that big of deal.

therefore, you can make a case that GL is Bourgeois or Proletarian. what you CAN'T do is claim that he's Aristocratic. were he an Aristocrat, he would have been scion of a GL father.

Blogger Karl September 22, 2017 4:59 PM  

Another reason to avoid Comic-cons

https://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2017/09/21/secret-facebook-page-reveals-marvel-dc-comics-writers-conspiring-harass-comic-con-conservatives/


Mark Waid, who recently took over the Captain America comic book for Marvel, has stepped into more hot water after appearing to call out a fan and popular YouTube reviewer for targeted harassment at this year's Comic-Con on his Facebook page.

To make matters worse and more embarrassing for the SJW crowd of comic book writers, a secret Facebook page was revealed where writers plotted to target Meyer with harassment meant to incite violence.

Blogger John September 22, 2017 4:59 PM  

I always assumed that the creature that Corvus faced couldn't fathom anyone turning down its offer. The solipsism of the morally corrupt - just as Sauron didn't expect the end run with the ring because he couldn't conceive of anyone possibly throwing away that much power.

Blogger tublecane September 22, 2017 5:00 PM  

@45-We're talking about different levels of narrative within one story? Like, the narrator is recounting a fictional history, and maybe the history contains discrete smaller stories. Then there's the story of the narrator, and the context of his retelling. So you can have stories within stories, or stories within stories within stories.

Don't know what level that would leave metasquared at. I was just thinking of the Philip K. Dick novel VALIS, which is narrated by the main character, Horselover Fat, in the third person. Or so he says. But part way into the story Philip K. Dick becomes a character, and it becomes obvious he and Horselover Fat are two aspects of the same personality, or something. I don't remember the precise details.

Anyway, the story is about these guys having a vision about the Earth being imprisoned by malign forces, and a satellite beaming messages in from space to save us. Somebody's born with special spiritual powers to save us, but that goes wrong. The meta-story, which I barely remember, is very Gnostic. The world was created by an insane god and a good god is coming to save us? The meta-meta-story is that Dick personally had a mental breakdown during which he had visions, and this story was an attempt to explain them.

Blogger Ingot9455 September 22, 2017 5:01 PM  

@63 I really like that, because in order to make an flying origami burning koran-page crane, he first has to rip the page out of a Koran.

Blogger S1AL September 22, 2017 5:01 PM  

"therefore, you can make a case that GL is Bourgeois or Proletarian. what you CAN'T do is claim that he's Aristocratic. were he an Aristocrat, he would have been scion of a GL father."

Only if you're assuming that Aristocratic is limited to direct bloodline. Other in-born traits (Magic a la Dresden, Fearlessness a la GL, etc.) could also be considered as Aristocratic explanations.

Anonymous IndecisiveEvidence September 22, 2017 5:10 PM  

The true meta squared plot is that all of VD's books are all part of the same shared Voxiverse. Once you realize that QM and AODAL and Cuckservative are all canon to each other, you're ready for the next level.

Anonymous Roundtine September 22, 2017 5:13 PM  

The metastory is that all of the kingdoms in Selenoth represent different cereal brands. The Savondirs are Lucky Charms. The Amorrans are Post Raisin Bran. Marcus represents Kellogg's Raisin Bran. The elves are Frosted Flakes. The Dwarves are Cracklin' Oat Bran. The wolfthings are Froot Loops. The viking people are Corn Flakes. The Goblins are Boo Berry. The Orcs are Captain Crunch. The trolls are Honey Smacks. The demons are Cocoa Puffs.

The entire story is a history of cereal sales and all the battles are actually a history of Wal-Mart product placement tests.

Anonymous bw1 September 22, 2017 5:13 PM  

Bruce Wayne and Tony Stark would seem to be a hybrid of aristocratic and bourgeois - their transformation to heros leveraged massive inherited wealth.

Blogger tublecane September 22, 2017 5:15 PM  

@43-Ozymandias has the reputation for being the smartest man in the world, though I don't know if we're supposed to take that literally. It's not clear to me he has superhuman intelligence in the sense that the Hulk has superhuman strength. To be a born superhero doesn't merely mean you were born with superior attributes. It should mean you were born with attributes unobtainable by human beings as we know them.

Batman was born with superior intelligence and athletic ability, Iron Man with superior intelligence and inventiveness. Both are exceptional human beings, but neither are supposed to be superhuman. I don't think Ozymandias is supposed to be, either.

Blogger Lovekraft September 22, 2017 5:17 PM  

Yet another comment about Islam. VD has made it perfectly clear that that is not a hornets nest he wishes to poke.

It's one thing to attack the cultural marxists, another entirely to take on the real thing and end up with (as VD references) another Hebdo.

Blogger tublecane September 22, 2017 5:24 PM  

@82-You're more right in the case of Batman, who supposedly lives the life of the idle rich. Wayne Enterprises, I think, dates back to a mercantile empire from the 1600s, or something.

Stark Industries, on the other hand, was founded no more than a coupla generations before Tony Stark, and he actually runs it.

In either case, traditional aristocrats would look at both as bourgeois, for having no titles and their wealth not being based on land. Plus, it came from someone's knack for buying and selling, not the expropriated labor of others.

Blogger Lovekraft September 22, 2017 5:32 PM  

Check this stat out:

The estimated total sales for the 300 comics was 6,271,330 comics which is down by 860,669 units from June and down by 2,309,832 units from July 2016.

http://www.cbr.com/july-2017-sales-chart/

Blogger Lovekraft September 22, 2017 5:32 PM  

Who hacked the usernames? Got some gremlins here.

Blogger Giraffe September 22, 2017 5:33 PM  

Obviously, Jack Ward is the fourth type of superhero.

Anonymous both feet on the ground. September 22, 2017 5:34 PM  

Does Jack Ward stand with superheroes?

Anonymous Looking Glass September 22, 2017 5:36 PM  

@84 Lovekraft

I get the very distinct feeling that's either a "oh, you should piss of Muslims" instinct or paid-shill trap. As Vox put it in a Darkstream: this isn't a game, it's a war. Doing stupid things is a rather bad idea. Though there's an amazingly common interest in starting wars on multiple fronts at every opportunity.

I'm trying to figure out a joke about WW2 being an elaborate joke so the USA could attack France, but I can't make it funny.

Anonymous Dick Out September 22, 2017 5:36 PM  

For Harambe

Anonymous a giant cutout of Jack War September 22, 2017 5:37 PM  

I love the name changes. :)

Anonymous one foot on the neck of tyranny September 22, 2017 5:37 PM  

Jack Ward is a super hero.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) September 22, 2017 5:38 PM  

John September 22, 2017 4:59 PM
just as Sauron didn't expect the end run with the ring because he couldn't conceive of anyone possibly throwing away that much power.



no one did.

apart from dumb luck / Divine Providence, doing what the Ringbearers did was the single DUMBEST possible course of action.

the only reason they chose it was because every other option meant that the Ring would subvert them, instead of the Ring being subverted by Iluvatar.


tublecane September 22, 2017 5:15 PM
It's not clear to me he has superhuman intelligence in the sense that the Hulk has superhuman strength.



okay.

then HOW did he invent all of that absurd tech? even BluePenis didn't approach his technical developments OR Ozy's ability to synthesize data inputs.



S1AL September 22, 2017 5:01 PM
Only if you're assuming that Aristocratic is limited to direct bloodline.



no, i didn't. i gave you one example that would qualify.


S1AL September 22, 2017 5:01 PM
Other in-born traits (Magic a la Dresden, Fearlessness a la GL, etc.)


already addressed.

further, while they may claim that he's "fearless", none of his actions bear this out. he's all the time concerned by his enemies and the threats they pose.

a "fearless" person would just go charging in without regard for personal consequences or damage to those surrounding them.

we have a word for real "fearlessness". they're called Berserkers.

https://infogalactic.com/info/Berserker

you might consider Lobo a type of Berserker but he's not ever out of his mind with rage. Hulk would be the actual archetypal comic example of the Berserk.

Blogger David The Good September 22, 2017 5:39 PM  

I am laughing. Great thread.

Anonymous His Back To Explosions September 22, 2017 5:40 PM  

Cause he's cool.

Anonymous kfg September 22, 2017 5:42 PM  

"The true meta squared plot is that all of VD's books are all part of the same shared Voxiverse."

Exactly. And so I went into AToB expecting a certain flavor of meta-story from the outset, nor was I disappointed, but odd little plays against learned expectations, subversions and deconstructions started showing around the edges.

And I believe a great, big dollop of misdirection.

Anonymous The Punchmaster September 22, 2017 5:45 PM  

Because liquor

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 22, 2017 5:47 PM  

This thread is going to look so stupid when we sober up.

Blogger Matthew September 22, 2017 5:48 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:This thread is going to look so stupid when we sober up.

And to those on mobile now.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 22, 2017 5:51 PM  

Are you talking story as in the personal stories, or the overarching "rising war" theme?

I get that the whole "nephilim/watchers" section of the story is almost certainly the metastory aspect, rising ancient powers seeking to return to the source of life, which they claim abandoned them, more or less (but that in reality probably exiled them), and that their arts, both technologies and magics and other things have bents to them associated with the Watcher that translated the art to mortal beings.

That's a nice thing similar to modern civilization's worship of "science"-as-deity. Science, even properly employed, is only one narrow (or polarized) view of the "whole package".

I'm unsure as yet if any of the Watchers are "good", hence the "Arts of Light" descend from them, or if the "Arts of Light" are more related to the anti-magic that the Ammorrans employ, seemingly emanations from the "remote" Deity.

"Well, there is another thing at play- that these are messiah stories, often written by people who don't understand the Messiah."

I don't know if you can say that about Superman, he's pretty explicitly a Christ-ersatz, in many, many ways.

"But his problem was that he knew, as a keen student of human nature, that no purely human organisation is able to maintain its character and purpose over centuries."

Humdinger. This is exactly what shows you how freakish clans like the Rothschilds are, and they're only a single economic clan riding the back of mammon. There are others riding other things. You just don't sustain anything against the cycle of history without it being held in a stasis by literally superhuman power of some sort.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) September 22, 2017 5:52 PM  

Jack Ward stands with Lovekraft September 22, 2017 5:32 PM
Who hacked the usernames? Got some gremlins here.



quitcherbitchin.

only fags don't stand with Jack Ward.


hrm.

i wonder what happens if i run my avatar handle out to the 255 character limit? stack overflow?

Blogger Matthew September 22, 2017 5:53 PM  

Azure Amaranthine wrote:I get that the whole "nephilim/watchers" section of the story is almost certainly the metastory aspect, rising ancient powers seeking to return to the source of life, which they claim abandoned them, more or less (but that in reality probably exiled them), and that their arts, both technologies and magics and other things have bents to them associated with the Watcher that translated the art to mortal beings.



The Watcher element is so obvious to anyone who's read the Book of Enoch that I think it can't be part of the meta-squared.

Blogger Lovekraft September 22, 2017 5:53 PM  

Comment from the PJMedia link above:

"There is both a Criminal Case and a Civil Case to be made against Marvel and DC Comics.

The people who were part of this conversation are employees of DC and Marvel. They are engaged in stalking and a conspiracy to assault a private individual. Since more than three people were engaged in a conspiracy to assault that is a felony. "Zac" should immediately seek legal counsel and start legal proceedings against Marvel."

Should also serve as warning to we Ilk. Careful about getting carried away. We're being closely monitored.

Hey, what's that lump on my couch pillow?

Blogger Matthew September 22, 2017 5:53 PM  

If it weren't a pain in the ass, I'd revise this prank so that Jack Ward does not stand with bob k mando.

Blogger rycamor September 22, 2017 5:55 PM  

FOOLS

Don't you know what will happen if he comes here?

When Jack Ward stands with Jack Ward, that's when the Rift opens.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) September 22, 2017 5:58 PM  

Jack Ward stands with Azure Amaranthine September 22, 2017 5:51 PM
I don't know if you can say that about Superman, he's pretty explicitly a Christ-ersatz, in many, many ways.



you're only interpreting him that way because you're projecting the Christian cultural mores with which you were raised and you can't figure out how else to map him.

Christ demonstrated no personal superhuman abilities ( aside from water walking and getting raised from the dead ). miracles where what he did to other people and things.

the most obvious discrepancy is that Superman never died until a recent storyline. and the 'purpose' of his birth was never supposed to be that he be required to die.

try reading it as "Superman is a Jew" and see how it maps.

Supes sure does do a lot of tikkuning the olam.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) September 22, 2017 6:00 PM  

Jack Ward stands with Matthew September 22, 2017 5:53 PM
If it weren't a pain in the ass, I'd revise this prank so that Jack Ward does not stand with bob k mando.



that's okay.

whether Jack stands with me or not, i stand behind him.

*eyebrow*

Anonymous Jack W@rd September 22, 2017 6:04 PM  

Rift averted.

Blogger S1AL September 22, 2017 6:04 PM  

"already addressed.

further, while they may claim that he's "fearless", none of his actions bear this out. he's all the time concerned by his enemies and the threats they pose."

I didn't see it addressed in any sensible form.

Whether the justification is true to the story or not doesn't change that the justification exists. Granted, my experience with GL stories never invoked it as an in-born trait, so I'm not sure where that came from.

Regardless, I still hold that there's a "Chosen Champion" archetype that overlaps with all three and exists outside of them.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 22, 2017 6:09 PM  

"you're only interpreting him that way because you're projecting the Christian cultural mores with which you were raised and you can't figure out how else to map him."

No, his original writer actually stated it at least once. I'm interpreting nothing.

Granted, he never died for sins or took disciples, but other than that?

He's the child of a literal superhuman extra-terrestrial sent to Earth to save the people there. There are (many) other aspects the writer pointed out as well, but I don't expect them to come through (or even exist any more) in modern/converged-man comics.

Blogger tublecane September 22, 2017 6:10 PM  

@94-"then HOW did he invent all of that absurd tech"

Because the plot had to happen?

Blogger SirHamster September 22, 2017 6:12 PM  

((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) wrote:Supes sure does do a lot of tikkuning the olam.

Superman fits the Jewish concept of Christ, as opposed to the historical one.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash September 22, 2017 6:13 PM  

Superman is the Messiah, but he's not Christ.

He's the Messiah that Jews think is coming.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 22, 2017 6:18 PM  

"Superman fits the Jewish concept of Christ, as opposed to the historical one."

This probably has more to do with killing off the main character being antithetical to continued sales of that particular comic. It also has to do with a reverse-translation sort of effect. The Jews expected the Messiah to be like Superman, but he was much more "meta" than that. Seeing as higher-order concepts are harder to grasp, translating the concept of the ACTUAL Messiah to, say, children, also unsurprisingly ends up looking like what the Jews might have thought of a prophesied Messiah.

Too bad his creator didn't realize that children aren't exactly dumbasses compared to adults, and that trying to dumb it down just kills the message rather than helping them understand it.

TL;DR: The Jews were actually acting like children about Christ, whereas Superman (as intended by his creator) was a Christ-dumbed-down for children.

Blogger tublecane September 22, 2017 6:25 PM  

@107-"Christ demonstrated no personal superhuman abilities ( aside from walking on water and getting raised from the dead ). Miracles were what he did to other people and things"

Oh, just walking on water and rising from the dead? What's the big deal, then?/s

I don't understand the distinction between his abilities and what he could do to other people and things. Being able to perform miracles is generally considered a superhuman ability, I should think. In addition to being a divine instrument he's also divine in himself, if you believe in the trinity. That's fairly superhuman. He has superhuman origins, as well, having come from a "virgin birth."

"Try reading it as 'Superman is a Jew' and see how it maps"

This is an odd statement, considering Jesus was a Jew, too.

Blogger Cail Corishev September 22, 2017 6:26 PM  

He's the Messiah that Jews think is coming.

I'm no expert, but I thought that was a pretty open secret, at least as far as the older comics and movies went. I haven't seen the modern movies, but I saw a scene from Man of Steel or BvS where Superman is surrounded by pitiful humans begging for his help, and he looks sort of annoyed and put-upon, as if he's just tired of saving these creatures. I wondered at the time whether that reflected a change in attitude, which would go along with the "It might be time to pull up stakes and find new hosts elsewhere in the world" sentiment that seems to be rising.

Blogger rycamor September 22, 2017 6:38 PM  

Jack W@rd wrote:Rift averted.

Truly, today Jack Ward has stood with us all.

Blogger Ingot9455 September 22, 2017 6:42 PM  

@107 @116 Jesus even had a two-fisted fight scene overturning tables and flogging the moneylenders out of the temple. Came out of it without a scratch on him.

Blogger Ingot9455 September 22, 2017 6:45 PM  

@83 Ozymandias, through his advanced training methodology, performs acrobatics that only a nineteen-year-old can while pushing fifty. Plus, (spoiler warning) at the end he catches a .38 bullet at point blank, just bloodying up his hand a little.
He's well into the superhuman range.

Blogger S1AL September 22, 2017 6:45 PM  

"Jesus even had a two-fisted fight scene overturning tables and flogging the moneylenders out of the temple."

I really love using this one every time someone tries to invoke cuddly care-bear Jesus.

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable September 22, 2017 6:50 PM  

I've got to get in on this.

Anonymous 5343 Kinds of Deplorable September 22, 2017 6:50 PM  

Matt, you're evil.

Blogger Matthew September 22, 2017 6:52 PM  

I was fully expecting to get yelled at by now.

Blogger Matthew September 22, 2017 6:53 PM  

Sadly, I've got to go now, so this will all be just like a dream.

Blogger Lovekraft September 22, 2017 6:55 PM  

Remember, Matt. With great power comes great responsibility.

Blogger tublecane September 22, 2017 6:58 PM  

@120-He's not born being able to do those things, however. Nor does get them from gamma radiation, or whatever. He's presented as having trained himself up into physical perfection.

Or maybe he gets it from technology and science experiments designed by himself or bought with his money. Either way, it comes through his own efforts. It's not inherited or accidental.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 22, 2017 7:00 PM  

@125 Someone
Sadly, I've got to go now, so this will all be just like a dream.

"Try to remember,
Jack Ward in September..."

Anonymous Brick Hardslab September 22, 2017 7:02 PM  

You could not be more wrong. The Savondir are captain crunch. The elves are lucky charms. The orcs are frosted flakes.

But the meta squared is actually the mascots not the cereals. So Tony the tiger vs lucky the leprechaun. Orcapt crunch vs the California raisins.

Anonymous MaskettaMan September 22, 2017 7:02 PM  

Ransom Smith wrote:There aren't any good comic books anymore really.

All the good ones anymore come from Japan.

Anonymous Man of the Atom September 22, 2017 7:08 PM  

tublecane wrote:@120-He's not born being able to do those things, however. Nor does get them from gamma radiation, or whatever. He's presented as having trained himself up into physical perfection.

Or maybe he gets it from technology and science experiments designed by himself or bought with his money. Either way, it comes through his own efforts. It's not inherited or accidental.


Ozymandias is a riff on Pete Morisi's 'Peter Cannon, Thunderbolt':

"Peter Cannon, orphaned son of an American medical team, was raised in a Himalayan lamasery, where his parents had sacrificed their lives combating the dreaded Black Plague! After attaining the highest degree of mental and physical perfection, he was entrusted with the knowledge of the ancient scrolls that bore the secret writings of past generations of wise men! From them he learned concentration, mind over matter, the art of activating and the harnessing the unused portions of the brain, that made seemingly fantastic feats possible! Then he returned to America with his faithful friend, Tabu, and sought out a new life, in a new land, that required the emergence of Peter Cannon... Thunderbolt."

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 22, 2017 7:09 PM  

"Either way, it comes through his own efforts. It's not inherited or accidental."

About that...

If someone is born mentally retarded, there are certain things no amount of effort will avail them of, barring miraculous intervention.

Similarly, if someone is born preternaturally intelligent, there are certain things of which they will be availed without even making a noticeable effort.

You guys' squabble comes from the fact that the magnitude of Ozymandias' power is not well defined. I would, however, be inclined to say that it fits better within the supernatural range, AKA a normal person with normal intelligence, no matter how great their effort, would never be able to approach several of his capabilities.

He's not named Ozymandias for no reason. He's been humbling great works off of (mostly) pure talent since he was young. Does he put in a lot of effort? Probably, but the point remains that he's clearly in the superhuman range, due to intellect which is pretty much entirely inherited, AKA "aristocratic".

Blogger M Cephas September 22, 2017 7:10 PM  

Well it depends. Many writers will come up with the superpower first, and the "how" comes after. There really is no way for Bruce Banner to become The Hulk through hard work and dedication. You either need some freak accident, or he'd have to be some alien from a distance Galaxy where that's normal.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 22, 2017 7:13 PM  

"All the good ones anymore come from Japan."

Check out "Akumetsu".

Blogger S1AL September 22, 2017 7:15 PM  

"He's not named Ozymandias for no reason. He's been humbling great works off of (mostly) pure talent since he was young. Does he put in a lot of effort? Probably, but the point remains that he's clearly in the superhuman range, due to intellect which is pretty much entirely inherited, AKA "aristocratic"."

Mmmm, I disagree here. Ozymadnias' abilities all appear to be nurtured through effort, which is classic Bourgeois. It's innate possible versus innate real. Superman didn't need any particular effort or training to fly, etc. His development of those abilities was simply a product of growing up.

That said, Ozy's entire MANNER is certainly noblesse oblige/chessmaster, which is traditionally aristocratic.

Blogger Steampunk Koala September 22, 2017 7:24 PM  

Resident Moron™ wrote:@CPEG

Coming back to superheros, it long ago struck me that the various pantheons of pagan gods have this in common: they're just people with more power. As Vox notes, Christianity is different. Christ is quantitatively and qualitatively different from us, not just quantitatively.

In spite of the insight mentioned above about a type of superhero being a god-becoming-man story, all superhero stories are about men becoming gods; they're the wish-fulfillment fantasies ("What do all men with power want? More power.") of un-sanctified minds. Magic is the wish-fulfillment fantasy of an un-sanctified mind. Science fiction is the wish-fulfillment fantasy of an un-sanctified mind, albeit one with marginally more chance of becoming true some day.

What has our scientific/technological progress done for us in moral terms?

Nothing.


One of the most memorable moments in gaming for me was the day I realized that most level 20 characters (in 3rd Edition D&D, anyway) were quantitatively more powerful than Zeus or Odin was described in ancient stories. People kept trying to build Conan or other mundane heroes as level 20 characters, but hit that wall of far more power than such a character actually had. Likewise, one of the best essays on the topic I ever read was "Gandalf was a fifth level wizard".

There may well be something to the idea that the sin of Babel was technological hubris. Merely building a tower into Heaven does not make one a god, but it does distort one's perspective on their proper place in the scheme of things. CERN could certainly fall into the same category; if we are recreating the Big Bang in our Babel machine, as we not also gods of our own creation?

An interesting thought.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) September 22, 2017 7:35 PM  

Azure Amaranthine September 22, 2017 6:09 PM
No, his ((( original writer ))) actually stated it at least once.



uh huh. and you don't see the contradiction there.

trusting the moneylenders to give you an honest explanation of their actions is no way to go through life, son.



Azure Amaranthine September 22, 2017 6:09 PM
He's the ...



the single defining characteristic of Christ is the redeeming Sin Sacrifice.

if you don't have the Sin Sacrifice you don't have a Christ Figure.

and if you try to pretend that it's a Christ Figure without that Sin Sacrifice aspect, you're actually portraying an Anti-Christ.


Snidely Whiplash September 22, 2017 6:13 PM
Superman is the Messiah, but he's not Christ.


this.

the Jews never did want to acknowledge the prophecies about the sacrifice of the Messiah, they wanted only the all powerful conquering King.

that's why they feted him and glorified him and three days later abandoned him after the Romans had scourged him.


tublecane September 22, 2017 6:25 PM
This is an odd statement, considering Jesus was a Jew, too.


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23&version=KJV


verse 4, in particular, is an apt description of Lending at Interest.

Blogger SmockMan September 22, 2017 7:40 PM  

Jon Del Arroz recommended X-O Manowar 2017. It is a great book. I read Vol 1. It has wonderful art, great movie style action. It is a John of Mars style pulp story. Space babe romance. Barbarian guy killing aliens. 10/10.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) September 22, 2017 7:53 PM  

S1AL September 22, 2017 7:15 PM
His development of those abilities was simply a product of growing up.


wrong. his age had nothing to do with it. he's been shown as indestructible and able to fly as an infant, since landing on Earth. it's exposure to "yellow sunlight" which powers him.

"Very early on he started to display various superhuman abilities"

in fact, there was one storyline in which a villain had surreptitiously managed to coat Supes in some sort of a clear sun screen such that he lost the ability to fly and had to take off his booties and expose the soles of his feet in order to regain power so that Superman didn't fall to his death.

how they might have retconned him in more recent adaptations such as Smallville i have no idea. but that's not the original character and has no bearing on what we're talking about.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) September 22, 2017 8:28 PM  

116. tublecane September 22, 2017 6:25 PM
I don't understand the distinction between his abilities and what he could do to other people and things.



there is a very good case to be made that, prior to the resurrection, Jesus accomplished NOTHING via his own native power(s).

rather, that having a faith greater than a mustard seed, all that he accomplished was via the will and power of the Father and Holy Spirit.

for instance, he had the Authority to call down the Heavenly Host. BUT, he had to do that through the Father.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26%3A53-54&version=KJV

"Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father"


Ingot9455 September 22, 2017 6:42 PM
Jesus even had a two-fisted fight scene overturning tables and flogging the moneylenders out of the temple. Came out of it without a scratch on him.



*shrugs*

he singlehandedly turned an entire murderous mob away from executing the adulterous woman via the superhuman act of
...
writing in the dust of the ground with his finger.

it wouldn't have exactly taken anything beyond Jesus castigating the moneylenders for breaking the Law ( lending at interest to their BRETHREN ), within the confines of the Temple itself to have made clear to everyone, observer or participant, that the moneylender's presence was an explicit defilement of the Holy of Holies and an egregious violation of the Law.

at that point, they couldn't defend themselves, they could only leave.

Blogger S1AL September 22, 2017 8:37 PM  

"how they might have retconned him in more recent adaptations such as Smallville i have no idea. but that's not the original character and has no bearing on what we're talking about."

The original character couldn't fly (see: "leap tall buildings in a single bound!"). By the time it got to that point, flight was shown to be something that developed as he grew up (like a normal child learning to walk).

Blogger S1AL September 22, 2017 8:52 PM  

Money-changers, not lenders. Big difference.

Blogger tublecane September 22, 2017 8:58 PM  

@140-Of course, Jesus admits his power comes from God (or Himself, in other words). But then His superhuman ability would be to be especially fit for being God's instrument. Sorta like how Luke Skywalker is specially attuned to the Force, which flows through him allowing him to accomplish extraordinary things.

There have to be other superheroes who are conduits for greater forces.

Anonymous Avalanche September 22, 2017 8:59 PM  

@25 Rainbow: ordinary, determined, or just born that way?

Raped by an evil superhero when he was 13. {frown}

Anonymous Avalanche September 22, 2017 9:05 PM  

@34 These men go on in this way for years, only to discover eventually that they have inadvertently funded the founding, growth and cancer-like metastasis of a horrible, monstrous, evil, civilization devouring cult.

AMERICA! We even have a name for it: "kicking the can down the road!" What town is it in AZ that is now PAYING MS-13 gang members to NOT kill!?!? Cause,you know,PAYING protection money NEVER leads to bad things...

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) September 22, 2017 9:06 PM  

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/money-changers

"For both of these kinds of transactions the shulḥani charged a small fee (agio), called in rabbinic literature a kolbon (a word of doubtful etymology but perhaps from the Greek κόλλυβος "small coin"; TJ, Shek. 1:6, 46b). This premium seems to have varied from 4 percent to 8 percent (Shek. 1:6, et al.). The shulḥani served also as a banker, and would receive money on deposit for investment and pay out an interest at a fixed rate (Matt. 25:27), although this was contrary to Jewish law (see below; *Moneylending )."

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) September 22, 2017 9:16 PM  

something else that's interesting about that page:

i usually see the Knights Templar credited with the creation of "International Banking", with letter of credit and "checks" being redeemable across the entirety of Christendom.

the Jews themselves deny this.

by their own description, they were using the Temple as ( possibly ) the very first Central Bank and repository.

"Not only did these foreign coins have to be changed but also ordinary deposits were often handed over to the Temple authorities for safe deposit in the Temple treasury (Jos., Wars 6:281–2). Thus Jerusalem became a sort of central bourse and exchange mart, and the Temple vaults served as "safe deposits" in which every type of coin was represented (TJ, Ma'as. Sh. 1:2, 52d, and parallels)."

that is one thing about Crazy Eyes, she does lurv her some lending at interest.

Blogger Darwinian Arminian September 22, 2017 9:24 PM  

So what category would the Punisher fit in? My first instinct would be to say Type 2 (along with Batman, another vigilante) except that neither the man nor his methods are terribly "extraordinary." What he does is bluntly simple:

1) Find criminals.
2) Kill them with whatever's handy.
3) Repeat.

You can get a decent story out of a character like that, but how does any of it qualify as "extraordinary?" It's not a mission that requires a lot of cleverness or sophistication, and the man who does it didn't do much to become ready or worthy for it; He just got mad, got some guns, and then went out to get some revenge. Doesn't take a superhero to pull off what skinny Bernard Goetz did in real life. You could even add that taking on the role hasn't even necessarily made him a better man -- Marvel originally used him as a villain and was reluctant to let him headline a book because they didn't want to encourage readers to see him as a hero.

Or maybe I just can't get past labeling a Vietnam vet with a skull on his chest who shoots crooks for a living as "bourgeois."

Anonymous Avalanche September 22, 2017 9:27 PM  

@39 A good friend came to the church because in his teenage years an older friend, somewhat fixated on the illuminati/new world order, had told him of the encroaching era of banking consolidation. As he watched this happen, his own investigation of history led him to the realisation of a multi-generational conspiracy. But his problem was that he knew, as a keen student of human nature, that no purely human organisation is able to maintain its character and purpose over centuries.
Hence his conclusion that the conspiracy is more than human. Having come to this conclusion he decided he wanted to on the winning side, and so he came to church.



This sort of thing, more than anything, makes me yearn for Christianity. But between the horrifyingly unbelievably **STUPID** Churchians I see around me, the disgusting "open the borders and let everything in" (STUPID!) churches / religions, and the tales here of (real true) Christians unable to find a tolerable church. I just dare not (not yet?) try to find a church that would be real. My ... tentative willingness to consider ... "belief" (while I have no question whatsoever that evil exists and operates tangibly in this world) could and would be gaggingly squashed by having to deal with stupid people trying to tell me what is clearly stupid and wrong! (Problem with being smart, well-educated, and deeply cynical.)

I don't necessarily see the "down the familial lines" thing as active evil (although I DOUBT the Queen is a lizard!). I DO see it as: "this is what our family does! This is what our TRIBE does! This is in our blood and blood lines!" Genetics is as real as evil. Gypsies are gypsies because they are genetically and culturally parasitical on more settled normal cultures. (Normal cultures have trouble dealing with them because they are NOT genetically and culturally willing to drive off (or kill off) the parasites.)

If your genes are high performance, high trust; you can no doubt be turned into medium performance (poor nutrition, raised by stupid people, denied education,lazy) and low trust (getting screwed a lot when young; even then. I think the high trust yearns for the ability TO trust? Or is that just me?).

If you're (genetically) low performance -- all the 'help' in the world will not turn you high performance. And if you're low trust, I do not believe you CAN be turned high trust, because your genetics have been formed to 'take' as a successful way of life.

Banksters are banksters because they've been raised and trained to it from childhood, AND because the members of their 'tribe' who could NOT do it well, did not reproduce as well. *Culture IS genetic!* The Ice People who could not -- or did not -- learn to protect their seed corn did not 'stick around' in the tribe's gene lines. Those traits were bred out. The banksters going back many generations who could not "bank" disappeared.

Blogger S1AL September 22, 2017 9:37 PM  

Yes, the banking interest is the part that is contrary to the law. Charging money for a service is obviously not. Even Jesus does not reference usury at any point in the story, referring only to the misuse of the Temple grounds for trade.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 22, 2017 9:57 PM  

@145 Avalanche
What town is it in AZ that is now PAYING MS-13 gang members to NOT kill!?!?

None that I know of. Have you ever heard of this site?

https://duckduckgo.com/html

Try it.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents September 22, 2017 9:58 PM  

@145 Avalanche
What town is it in AZ that is now PAYING MS-13 gang members to NOT kill!?!?

None that I know of. Have you ever heard of this site?

https://duckduckgo.com/html

Try it sometime.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine September 22, 2017 10:10 PM  

"trusting the moneylenders to give you an honest explanation of their actions is no way to go through life, son."

Assuming that everyone who disagrees with your does so out of malicious intent is a dishonest way to go through life, son. I might remind you that assuming that (((everything you don't like))) is also a defining attribute of Stormpoopers.

"the single defining characteristic of Christ is the redeeming Sin Sacrifice."

Patently false. If you had said that that was the single most important characteristic from our perspective, I'd agree with you, but you didn't. There were prophesied characteristics of him. If those were not also, by definition, "defining characteristics", I don't know what could be, and this is just my opening thrust on that subject.

"if you don't have the Sin Sacrifice you don't have a Christ Figure."

You can't have the complete Christ figure, but you can have parts of it. Obviously an analogy is not exactly the same as the original.

"and if you try to pretend that it's a Christ Figure without that Sin Sacrifice aspect, you're actually portraying an Anti-Christ"

Nice try at villifying, but you're just wrong. Are Christians anti-Christs if they're not outright martyred? Is even a Christian being martyred capable of purifying people of sins? You're just flat out wrong.

If someone says that they're doing something, but they're not very good at it, I'll take their word for it if it looks like they're legitimately trying. You, on the other hand, are assuming that because Superman (original version, long loooong ago) wasn't exactly like Christ that he was Satanic in origin and intent. That's a very, very big assumption to make. Judge not lest ye be judged the same. Saying that some mistakes along the way make for Satanic intent from the start would, I think, also leave you yourself in quite the harsh light.

As for if Superman has always been a Christ-figure, obviously not, adaptations differ, but that some adaptations have portrayed him as one specifically, rather than just "a Messiah", is undeniable.

From the Literary Analysis portion of the Infogalactic Superman page:

"Superman stories have occasionally exhibited Christian themes as well. Screenwriter Tom Mankiewicz consciously made Superman an allegory for Christ in the 1978 movie starring Christopher Reeve:[224] baby Kal-El's ship resembles the Star of Bethlehem, and Jor-El's gives his son a messianic mission."

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) September 22, 2017 10:16 PM  

S1AL September 22, 2017 9:37 PM
Even Jesus does not reference usury at any point in the story, referring only to the misuse of the Temple grounds for trade.



the Jews themselves define the Moneychangers as bankers.

the Jews themselves claim that the Moneychangers deposited the profits of their banking IN THE TEMPLE.

ie - even if they only conducted usury off of Temple grounds, they still defiled it with the profits thereof.

Jesus explicitly called them to task for following the FORM of the Law, but evading the Intent whenever possible.

Anonymous Avalanche September 22, 2017 10:28 PM  

@151 What town is it in AZ that is now PAYING MS-13 gang members to NOT kill!?!?

None that I know of. Have you ever heard of this site?
https://duckduckgo.com/html Try it sometime.


I wasn't clear -- that was a lost-MEMORY phrasing, not a question. I don't remember WHICH town has done this. (I don't care.) I should have written: "are you aware there is some town..." or some clearer phrasing.

IF anyone has not heard of it -- they might be interested in going to ... you know... some search engine to find out.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Deplorable Cents September 22, 2017 11:20 PM  

@154 Avalanche
I wasn't clear -- that was a lost-MEMORY phrasing, not a question.

Oh. So that's why you used two question marks, like this "!?!?" because it was a lost-MEMORY phrasing. Well, then, how many question marks do you use for an actual question? Three??? Four???? Help us out here to learn your language, ok?????

I don't remember WHICH town has done this. (I don't care.)

So you don't know, and you don't care. Have you ever been in a Kung Fu movie? Would you like a drink? Or should that be, "would you like a drink!?!?!?!?" maybe?

I should have written: "are you aware there is some town..." or some clearer phrasing.

There are at least three cities in California paying people not to commit murder or considering it. The rest is left as an exercise for the student.

Anonymous Avalanche September 23, 2017 8:24 AM  

Well, we ARE grouchy, aren't we? It's really too bad it's so difficult to express emphasis and emotion in what is, essentially, plain text. It's too bad you find a female way of 'speaking' in plain text distressing and worth a snarky comment. I'd try to be humorless and dry as you'd prefer in my commenting... but it wouldn't work. (Oh, it sorry: but it JUST wouldn't work!!!) {BG}

Anonymous kfg September 23, 2017 8:28 AM  

Not a city in Arizona. Sacramento, California. Yes I know Snopes has issues, but they do a decent job on this issue:

http://www.snopes.com/is-sacramento-paying-gang-members-not-to-kill/

Note, however, that there is a considerable factor of the expected double talk involved:

"The stipends are not for not committing crime, it’s for engaging in this program and demonstrating progress toward their goals. If you look at a lot of youth development programs, incentivized participation is not a new concept."

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