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Tuesday, October 03, 2017

72 minutes

While the media once more goes through its futile routine of attempting to push gun control on a population that absolutely is not having it, the more important lesson to be learned is the incredible tardiness of the police response. It seems the old joke about how when seconds count, the police are minutes away needs to be updated; in an emergency situation, you can be certain the police will be there to pick up the pieces in just 72 minutes.

A partial transcript of the full scanner audio:

  • Minute 15: they have identified room 135 on 32nd floor. But then reported 29th and 32nd floor. Security officer shot in leg on 32nd floor.
  • Minute 19: they had 4-man team on 32nd floor, another 4-man team arriving. Reporting definitively a 2nd shooter. Problem - police lacked rifles.
  • Minute 70: need roll call of personnel in Mandalay and strike team. 2 strike teams 13 officers total. All units SWAT use tac 1
  • Minute 71: control Zebra 20 - on suspects door - need everyone in hallway prepared to pop door -- all units move back SWAT has explosive device -- breach breach breach -- SWOOOOSH!
  • Minute 72: has anyone covered airport -- two shots fired in park area of New York New York
  • Minute 73: Have influx of returning ambulances any other area they need to respond to - Sending two teams Excaliber
  • Minute 74: Control 374 I have medics reporting getting shot at Tropicana -- need strike team to the Tropica -- announce yourself if you are going there -- Unit 20 - entered room have one suspect down - Zebra has one suspect down in room

Labels:

205 Comments:

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Blogger Michael Maier October 03, 2017 6:16 AM  

"Problem - police lacked rifles."

I have trouble believing that police cruisers do not have long guns of some kind.

But even putting that aside, how can any city take 72 minutes for a SWAT team to arrive? How is that remotely possible?

Blogger Cleveland Screamer October 03, 2017 6:19 AM  

@1 That was my first thought. No rifle in the trunk? Then stand outside the door for almost an hour while people get mowed down? Jesus.

Blogger Midnight Avenue J October 03, 2017 6:19 AM  

I wonder how much this has to do with burdensome rules about how cops ought to proceed.

A team of Dirty Harrys might have shot first, no questions later. Now everyone wants to pin cops as the bad guys when they take out the bad guys.

I don't have any particular animus against cops, I know some good people who are LEOs, but I've also known despicable thieving drunkard LEOs too. They're like the rest of us, I guess. Some let power go to their heads and abuse it. Some have a head-down, follow-rules until retirement mentality, which is more dangerous than the loose cannons. They don't question orders which makes them automatons to directive whim.

The response time was much shorter than 72 minutes. It took less than 15 to get a unit on site and ID shooter position, judging from the transcript time stamps. It took 72 minutes to resolution. Long? Yeah but I wasn't there. The shooter was not active for the full 72 minutes.

Blogger Michael Maier October 03, 2017 6:21 AM  

Nope. @20:10, the video says : "All units lock your vehicles. We have citizens trying to grab shotguns."

I need to get to work so I cannot listen to the whole thing now. But in the minute before that, they talk about having rifles on the scene.

Piss on this cowardice. LVPD "heroes" my ass.

Anonymous Ages October 03, 2017 6:22 AM  

I think officers were probably just in shock and went into training mode. When there’s a shooting and people dying, you call for help.

You could hear the frustration in the voices of dispatch because officers still under fire were asking for medical assistance—you can’t do that. One cop said he had five officers ready to provide cover fire for an ambulance; in retrospect that’s insane.

Nobody ever had to face anything like this before. The shooter set up a literal gunner’s nest in that room and the police training simply was not adequate to respond to that. And no fault on the police for that, by the way!

It was like 9/11 in that way. Why was response so slow? Nobody knew what to do; everyone’s response was too small because it took till after it was over to see the full scale.

Blogger Mister Excitement October 03, 2017 6:22 AM  

No doubt the Left and Jihadis are getting a lot of Lessons Learned from this attack.

Alex Jones said on his show just yesterday that gun store owners are reporting that Leftists are buying and training with weapons like they've never seen before.

Anonymous Eduardo October 03, 2017 6:24 AM  

What a mess...

It is like they were facing a small team of combatants, but just one guy went down?

Man I have to hear this scan, this sort of stuff only happens in America, you never hear this sort stuff in Brazil, usually it is straight forward coverup or all information matches among the officers and witnesses.

I like the excuse... Muh Rifles! Dude it is close quarters, -50 meters, even shotguns with big bores work at that distance.

Truly, a winner is you LVPD.

Anonymous Ages October 03, 2017 6:25 AM  

Several officers reported citizens breaking into police cars trying to take shotguns. Not sure if it was dindus taking the opportunity or concert goers wanting to protect themselves, but it’s interesting.

Blogger Mister Excitement October 03, 2017 6:28 AM  

@1 "But even putting that aside, how can any city take 72 minutes for a SWAT team to arrive? How is that remotely possible?"

I don't know a thing about police procedure or SWAT, but....

By the time it takes everybody to get notified, get dressed, drive to the station, get geared up, briefed, loaded onto the trucks, move to the objective, deploy, etc. etc.... it takes time.

The military always has a QRF (Quick Reaction Force) on standby while deployed. They're ready to roll out on a moment's notice.

Are SWAT teams like QRF (Quick Reaction Force)? Are SWAT guys on standby at the police station 24/7?

I don't know.

Anonymous Ages October 03, 2017 6:30 AM  

Another note: at one point dispatch called off any new strike teams entering the hotel. Apparently in the chaos way more police responded at the hotel itself than they needed.

It was just craziness. I can’t really fault the police; they did what they could. I don’t want this country becoming a police state.

I was surprised watching Fox last night how many guests they had wanting America to turn into Israel, complete with baggage screening at hotels. Glad to see Tucker laugh one off the show. (Maybe TSA should just check everyone when they leave their house.)

Anonymous Eduardo October 03, 2017 6:32 AM  

Technically there is always a swat team in place for rapid deployment. Maybe LV just does things differently, but technically SWAT teams are also meant to be deployed with little information in emergency situations, like THIS ONE!

Blogger Mister Excitement October 03, 2017 6:35 AM  

@11 "Technically there is always a swat team in place for rapid deployment. Maybe LV just does things differently, but technically SWAT teams are also meant to be deployed with little information in emergency situations, like THIS ONE!"

Thank you for that info.

Vox is right again. When seconds count, the cops are only 72 minutes away.

Anonymous CoolHand October 03, 2017 6:42 AM  

The one thing that truly dismays me in this whole thing is looking at how the people initially reacted to being shot at.

They laid down on the damned ground out in the open and waited to die.

Happily it belatedly occurs to a few guys that this is stupid and they proceed to hustle their mewling women folk out of Dodge RFN, but damn man, talk about terrible instincts.

Is this shit bred into city people, or do they have to teach them to be this helpless?

Don't know what they teach in the military, but the first thing I'm doing when I hear bullets going by or striking the ground around me is MOVE.

Just can't imagine how they thought it was a good idea to get down on the ground out in the open like that and just lay there. Get down, fine, but move your ass to cover or at least concealment soonest.

I dunno, the rest of it is pretty much standard issue when dealing with big crowds of people and the cops, but the sight of a whole crowd just laying there getting shot at totally gobsmacked me.

Blogger VD October 03, 2017 6:42 AM  

I can’t really fault the police; they did what they could.

They most certainly did not. They could have engaged the guy within 20 minutes, 52 minutes sooner than they did.

Blogger VD October 03, 2017 6:44 AM  

Don't know what they teach in the military, but the first thing I'm doing when I hear bullets going by or striking the ground around me is MOVE.

Exactly. As those who attended the post-Paris attacks Brainstorm will remember, the first thing to do is MOVE MOVE MOVE. It's very hard for anyone but an experienced hunter or a trained sniper to hit a target more than 12 feet away moving in a perpendicular direction.

Anonymous m October 03, 2017 6:45 AM  

Did anyone look up at the room he was firing from with binoculars/night vision scope, and actually see the shooter? If so, why not just shoot the sucker with your own rifle? Jesus, it's not that hard of a shot. 13 degree up angle, 500 yards......shoot the xucker! I made the barrels for the original M24 SWS and sure as hell know a lot of quarter and half minute shooters from the services.

God bless.

Anonymous CoolHand October 03, 2017 6:48 AM  

I guess for city folks 72 mins is an eternity, but it's pretty much SOP out here in the sticks.

The last time we had to call the cops it took them almost three hours to turn up.

We all know that if the shtf, we are well and truly on our own, so we plan and act accordingly.

I'm still disappointed to find out that the big Vegas hotels don't have their own Good Squads filled with tattooed killers from various militaries and mafii though.

Blogger JACIII October 03, 2017 6:53 AM  

The problem is most people think "military" when they see "cop", because cops want all the gear, trappings, and honor reserved for fighting men and will mime the role.

Think "bureaucrat" instead and it all comes clear. Their bosses are just the most successful bureaucrats.

Blogger Felix Bellator October 03, 2017 6:55 AM  

@17 CoolHand, "I'm still disappointed to find out that the big Vegas hotels don't have their own Good Squads filled with tattooed killers from various militaries and mafii though."

They will after this. The police response was bad for business and business is everything in Vegas.

Anonymous Jeffrey Cucker October 03, 2017 7:01 AM  

Movies like Casino and Oceans 11 seemed to over-promise the power of private security at these hotels. Let another anarcho-capitalist myth busted.

Anonymous karsten October 03, 2017 7:05 AM  

"A team of Dirty Harrys might have shot first, no questions later. Now everyone wants to pin cops as the bad guys when they take out the bad guys."

This is what I'm thinking. These days, any time a policeman even favors a minority with a mean look, he and his department (often his entire city) gets crucified in the press, sued, etc. Little wonder that they probably have a laundry list of procedures that they need to follow.

Blogger Lazarus October 03, 2017 7:07 AM  

Debka reports that ISIS reiterated its claim and that the FBI has photos of the shooter in the MId-east.

The Islamic State has meanwhile reinforced its earlier claim of responsibility for the atrocity with another communiqué, which named Stephen Paddock “Abu Abdul Bar Al-Amrekini” and said he had carried out surveillance of the concert arena opposite the hotel before opening fire on the crowd.
The first ISIS notice claimed that he had converted to Islam some months earlier. While an official US spokesman stressed there was no indication at this time of Paddock’s affiliation to any international terrorist organization, overnight Monday various Middle East sources said he had been in contact with certain quarters in the region, and claimed the FBI had photos recording his visits. No specific country was named in these reports.

Blogger WrenchTurner October 03, 2017 7:08 AM  

The mob was purged from Vegas those movies involved mobbed up casinos

Anonymous Athor Pel October 03, 2017 7:12 AM  

"17. Anonymous CoolHand October 03, 2017 6:48 AM
...
I'm still disappointed to find out that the big Vegas hotels don't have their own Good(sic) Squads filled with tattooed killers from various militaries and mafii though.
"



1. Goons willing to shoot and be shot at cost real money. MBA's hate that.
2. The state does not like to share power.

Yes they have goons but they're paid and trained to deal with tourists and likely legally required by the city, county and state to only handle certain types of events leaving the most serious in government hands. And don't forget insurance, if their insurance company says no then they aren't doing it.

Blogger wreckage October 03, 2017 7:15 AM  

"Let another anarcho-capitalist myth busted."

Dude, they're heist movies, FFS.

Anonymous Johnny Dollar October 03, 2017 7:17 AM  

Vox, have you seen this video yet? “ it shows a gunman shooting out of the the 7th or 10th floor of the hotel. The media and police are lying, it's a cover up. something else is going on as usual...”

https://mpcdot.com/forums/topic/10023-las-vegas-concert-shooting/#entry387107

Blogger wreckage October 03, 2017 7:18 AM  

@24. Precisely. Always the same: if private security WAS that good it would be outlawed, and doubtless is. Then when disaster happens it proves we need the government boot on our necks to keep us safe.

People lap that up, and don't seem to notice what Vox has pointed out very clearly: the State failed. The boot on the neck failed. All the checks, and searches, and invasions of privacy, and unpersonings and censorship... they all failed.

Anonymous Cinco October 03, 2017 7:21 AM  

Here is my take:

72 minutes is ridiculous from both an assault perspective on the 32nd floor, and a return fire from the ground perspective. I suspect the Vegas PD has a playbook that reads something along the lines of: Isolate the shooter, call SWAT, wait for SWAT, Let SWAT do work. The problem with this mentality is that there were hundreds of people that the shooter was still engaging. At that point they need to put away the donuts, and make breach, even with their Glocks... Protect and serve?

I can only imagine how tired the cops' arms in the hallway outside that hotel room got just from holding their Glocks and trying not to shake for 47 minutes...

Solution: all of the hotels in the area need to employ 4 guys (not each, literally a four man team could service the entire Strip) who know what the hell they are doing. I am talking explosive breaching, CQB, and fighting under nightvision.

Problem: liabilty with this would be huge. I mean just explosivelly breaching the wrong room could be fatal (unlikely) but possible, definitely some injured ear drums, and a maybe mild TBI.

Ironically, most lives and wounded could have been prevented by just shutting off the power to the hotel. Anyone here ever tried to fire a machine gun through iron sights at night? Even an M4 with the large diameter iron sight is difficult to aim at night.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer October 03, 2017 7:29 AM  

CoolHand wrote:The one thing that truly dismays me in this whole thing is looking at how the people initially reacted to being shot at.

They laid down on the damned ground out in the open and waited to die.

Happily it belatedly occurs to a few guys that this is stupid and they proceed to hustle their mewling women folk out of Dodge RFN, but damn man, talk about terrible instincts.

Is this shit bred into city people, or do they have to teach them to be this helpless?

Don't know what they teach in the military, but the first thing I'm doing when I hear bullets going by or striking the ground around me is MOVE.

Just can't imagine how they thought it was a good idea to get down on the ground out in the open like that and just lay there. Get down, fine, but move your ass to cover or at least concealment soonest.

I dunno, the rest of it is pretty much standard issue when dealing with big crowds of people and the cops, but the sight of a whole crowd just laying there getting shot at totally gobsmacked me.


It's a bit of a prisoners dilemma situation. You are basically in a corral and if you are in the center you have 2 options.

1.) Stay standing and move towards the edges and cover.
2.) Hit the deck

If everyone stays standing and moves towards the edges your odds are good.

If everyone else hits the deck you are now sticking out in a crowd, that will draw the shooters attention. You also are going to have trouble moving very quickly while stumbling over the people laying on the deck and trying to avoid twisting an ankle or tweaking a knee. That also doesn't account for some idiot "hero" trying to force you into getting down.

The optimal situation is everyone moves for the edges and cover. The problem is the dumbest people in the crowd are not only going to make that hard but increase the odds the shooter notices you and may actually work against you.

All that being said I would still attempt it, maybe through a bear crawl, but other's logic is if they play dead they won't be as noticeable. You odds of survival probably only increase marginally due to all of the other factors that start working against you.

Now if you are near the edge and have a fairly open path then book it and don't be part of the problem for others.

Blogger mohammad theprofit October 03, 2017 7:33 AM  

It's a casino where millions of dollars are exchanged daily. I suspect that hotel security had plenty of arms to stop this.

Anonymous Anonymous October 03, 2017 7:37 AM  

Wait you need a rifle for taking on a target inside a hotel room/suite? How huge are these rooms?

Anonymous Looking Glass October 03, 2017 7:41 AM  

I'm pretty sure I remember LVPD bringing out the helicopters to a call in of a gunman at a Las Vegas Costco.

https://www.copblock.org/1004/erik-scotts-death-what-happens-in-the-lvmpd-stays-in-the-lvmpd/

There is it.


Should be credit them for getting there faster than the Orlando PD? That was 3 hours to do anything. Plus, no one seems to have returned fire into an occupied hotel, so at least they have that going for them.

@11 Eduardo

SWAT teams aren't all they're claimed to be. They more get armor, breach crudely and shot random dogs. It's also possible SWAT was actually someplace else when this all went down.

Blogger JACIII October 03, 2017 7:43 AM  

Forms to fill out. Asses to cover. Speeches to prepare for the cameras.

Anonymous JAG October 03, 2017 7:43 AM  

The ghouls on the left such as Hillary Clinton couldn't even let the dead be counted before attempting to convince us to let them have more of their tyranny over us.

Once again we see that not only are most leftists sociopaths, but that their is no low they won't ooze right under.

Always remember that there is only one true reason the left wants us disarmed, and it has nothing to do with our safety. They wish to rule in a manner that they know they would deserve to be shot dead for.

Anonymous JAG October 03, 2017 7:45 AM  

*there

Damn autocomplete and lack of proofreading...

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales October 03, 2017 7:49 AM  

A little off topic, but, are you gonna do a post or darkstream addressing Trump's tax plan and the media attack on it since it's so crucial (to him and a lot of others, anyways) for it to go through?

Blogger Stephen October 03, 2017 8:04 AM  

He had a lot of guns money and time to prepare. So it would not surprise if he had booby trapped the doors and armored his machine gun nest. So that may explain why they needed SWAT to mouse hole the wall. A sniper could set up on another building faster than a breaching team. Does anyone know when the last shots were fired by the nutter? Unless the security guard was stupid enough to knock I suspect the gun witch sot him in the leg had a string tied to the trigger witch passed the door as the nutter was too busy shooting the crowd to notice someone opening the door to the room. This may have lead them to believe there were multiple shooters in the room. He had money and explosive so he could of set up claymores too.

But you are an ordinary cop with just pistols and a shotgun being the only long arm in your car. An obvious solution to me would be to go to the room underneath listen to were he is and shoot through the floor. Or spot him through the bullet holes where the security guard was shot and shoot through the wall that way.

Anonymous Eduardo October 03, 2017 8:06 AM  

@Looking Glass

Well, Technically they should be a sort of a Elite Force... But yeah... I guess as time went on, instead of maintaining the best cops with the best and constant training in the SWAT, the big cities just dumbed down the whole thing, and they just became run-of-the-mill officer with armor and an AR rifle. They do some CQB training and voilá, they are SWAT.

But they were supposed to be like LAPD SWAT model from decades ago. Or so I read...

Yeah, maybe they were somewhere else, but it is just weird to not have at least a 5-man team to go to Mandalay and at least try something. Unless Vegas has the smallest SWAT team among the big cities.

If this is not False Flag, this is a tremendous evidence that Vegas Police is worthless against extremely violent people.

Anonymous Ages October 03, 2017 8:14 AM  

@VD They could have engaged the guy within 20 minutes

No, they couldn't have. The hotel locked down the elevators (at police request), which slowed things down, and it was believed there were shooters on multiple floors. They had a team sweeping floors 29+ and clear out hotel guests.

It doesn't matter anyway. My understanding was the perp shot himself well before SWAT even arrived.

Blogger Nate October 03, 2017 8:15 AM  

"It doesn't matter anyway. My understanding was the perp shot himself well before SWAT even arrived."

in other words... they did what they always do. they wait until the guy offs himself... then they bravely kick in the door and tell everyone they are heros.

Blogger Nate October 03, 2017 8:16 AM  

"No, they couldn't have. The hotel locked down the elevators (at police request), which slowed things down, and it was believed there were shooters on multiple floors. "

wrong. that had a 4 man team on the 32nd floor. They knew damn well that there was someone in there shooting... and they let him keep on shooting. Because they left their rifles in the trunk.

Anonymous Ages October 03, 2017 8:16 AM  

It's very hard for anyone but an experienced hunter or a trained sniper to hit a target more than 12 feet away moving in a perpendicular direction.

He wasn't firing at anyone in particular, so accuracy doesn't matter. He sprayed the front of the crowd, by the stage, first, and more than half of the dead were in that area and were shot before anyone even realized what was going on.

Blogger dc.sunsets October 03, 2017 8:18 AM  

Recall from the "infamous FBI Miami shootout," the Feebs who got slaughtered knew they were tailing stone-cold killers, one of whom was armed with a Mini-14, but they each carried ONLY WHAT THEY WERE AUTHORIZED, 9mm pistols or 38 Special revolvers (one had a shotgun that was never deployed.) A "tac team" was 5 minutes away, and THEY were authorized for sub-guns and AR/M4 type weapons. Carrying an unapproved weapons puts you in danger of LOSING YOUR PENSION.

We are protected by the Department of Motor Vehicles mindset:
Priority list for cops/bureaucrats:
1. Enjoy swaggering around.
2. Mentally thumb through that great pension you accumulate.
3. Go home in one piece so you'll enjoy that great pension.
4.
5.
6.
(etc.)
151. Protect the public.

Anonymous Ages October 03, 2017 8:19 AM  

that had a 4 man team on the 32nd floor. They knew damn well that there was someone in there shooting...

Wrong. I listened to the entire police loop, and the firing ended well before SWAT arrived on scene.

There was another team on the 29th floor and they were working their way up, another team on the roof and another on the 2nd floor. Another arrived later but weren't needed.

Anonymous CoolHand October 03, 2017 8:22 AM  

Eduardo wrote:If this is not False Flag, this is a tremendous evidence that Vegas Police is worthless against extremely violent people.


EVERY police force is worthless against extremely violent people (in the US anyway).

Police can keep the peace when 99.97% of the population are behaving, but that is it.

That single black cop from LA that killed a bunch of other cops absolutely paralyzed an entire gigantic city with an equally gigantic (and notoriously violent in their own right) police force all by himself, for two damned weeks.

The cops fall entirely apart when presented with even the slightest hint of organized or competent resistance.

It's a testament to how law abiding and docile most people are that it doesn't happen on a regular basis.

The cops aren't fighters, and they tend to severely over react when they encounter resistance of any sort.

Do a search for "Kill Dozer Video" and watch the kind of mayhem that a single determined and pissed of old man can wreak when he's got zero fucks left to give.

The cops on that scene actually called the National Guard and asked them to send an F-18 or an Apache with Hellfire missiles to blow the guy up.

They had a guy in a bulldozer driving around town and their first instinct was to call in a fucking air strike.

If they'd have had RPG's or LAW's in the city PD armory, you can bet your ass they'd have used them. Totally lost their minds, and he wasn't even shooting at them (or anyone else, he was just running over cars and knocking down empty buildings).

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd October 03, 2017 8:23 AM  

Stephen wrote:An obvious solution to me would be to go to the room underneath listen to were he is and shoot through the floor.

In a high rise, I would expect close to a foot of reinforced concrete for a floor deck. You won't hear him move, and you won't shoot through.

Anonymous AZFloyd October 03, 2017 8:23 AM  

This goes to show how useless cups are except to harass motorist for speeding and other revenue generating endeavors. This, allegedly, was one guy. WTF would these pigs do if they were faced with a squad or platoon of individuals? I guessing there were some good choke points on the 32nd floor to keep the logs at bay. Just for shots and giggles, they could have shortstop the airport which is just a few blocks east.

Anonymous Ages October 03, 2017 8:23 AM  

they did what they always do. they wait until the guy offs himself... then they bravely kick in the door and tell everyone they are heros.

Oh please. Why don't you just bust into the room of a heavily armed assailant, Mr. Longerdick? They had to be concerned about the safety of other hotel occupants (firing through walls and ceilings) as well as themselves.

I'm not sure what you really expected them to do. But I'm sure you could have done better.

Blogger dc.sunsets October 03, 2017 8:24 AM  

What is there to learn from this?
1. There's no active defense against such an attack. Unless one intends to field with a Steyer SSG counter-sniper rifle and a Level 4 capable ballistic shield, escape and evasion are it.
2. Whoever did this, the target was A) a large group of B) people having a good time. This is the target you see over and over again; whether it's a psycho in existential agony who wants to destroy others' happiness or a psy-op meant to hit the public's sense of stability, the risky place to be if you're concerned about this sort of thing is a large group of people visibly enjoying themselves.

This is what will increasingly attract mayhem, just like a pretty girl in revealing clothes stumbling drunkenly down a dark alley attracts a knife-wielding rapist.

Blogger VD October 03, 2017 8:26 AM  

I'm not sure what you really expected them to do. But I'm sure you could have done better.

What every military trained in urban combat does. It's not rocket science.

Blogger dc.sunsets October 03, 2017 8:26 AM  

@47 "firing through walls and ceilings." Er, do I misunderstand what modern high-rises are made of? I thought the floors for sure were poured concrete, and the walls often are, too.

Anonymous Ages October 03, 2017 8:27 AM  

Vox, have you seen this video yet? “ it shows a gunman shooting out of the the 7th or 10th floor of the hotel. The media and police are lying, it's a cover up. something else is going on as usual...”

Fake news. It's a reflection on the glass. Unless someone can produce a photo showing a window on the 10th floor bashed out (because none of the hotel windows are able to open), it's nonsense.

Anonymous Ages October 03, 2017 8:28 AM  

What every military trained in urban combat does. It's not rocket science.

Our police are not the military, nor do I want them to be.

Anonymous Ages October 03, 2017 8:30 AM  

It's a casino where millions of dollars are exchanged daily. I suspect that hotel security had plenty of arms to stop this.

The liability insurance to cover the risks of having an arsenal on-site is probably more expensive than the insurance to cover theft.

Blogger Phat Repat October 03, 2017 8:31 AM  

Still waiting on motive. Other than psycho.

Blogger Chris Lutz October 03, 2017 8:31 AM  

@44 But there had been a wounded security guard on that floor so they knew a shooter was in there.

My opinion is the cops got to the 32nd floor saw the wounded security guard, who I heard was shot through the door. By then there wasn't anymore shooting. So either the gunman was out of ammo or waiting to blow away the next guy through the door. So, they waited on SWAT. Again, no more shooting so there wasn't a need to rush the room and you didn't know how many people were in the room. Do you want militarized cops or normal cops? Normal cops aren't going to storm a room when the shooting has stopped.

Oh and the "when getting shot at run" is nice when you have some space to move. In a crowd it's a bit harder and probably a few of the deaths are due to trampling.

Blogger Nate October 03, 2017 8:32 AM  

"Wrong. I listened to the entire police loop, and the firing ended well before SWAT arrived on scene."

The 4 guys they had up there weren't swat sugartits.


Anonymous Panzer Man October 03, 2017 8:33 AM  

If he's shooting out the windows, his gun isn't pointed in the direction of the cops.

If they can hear the gunfire, could they try shooting through the door at the sound? Or the walls? (The Trade Towers had a lot of interior walls made of thin plasterboard, which many people didn't realize and therefore often didn't try to break through. I doubt a Vegas hotel is going to be too armored.)

Even if you're not up for a room storming when you're a cop, how about kicking in the door and then scampering back? If he turns to cover the door, he's no longer shooting outside. If he starts shooting outside again, return to the door while his back is turned and kill him.

Just a few things they could have done without necessarily heroically throwing themselves in front of his rifle.

Anonymous Ages October 03, 2017 8:34 AM  

If they'd have had RPG's or LAW's in the city PD armory, you can bet your ass they'd have used them. Totally lost their minds, and he wasn't even shooting at them (or anyone else, he was just running over cars and knocking down empty buildings).

This. The police are militarized enough; we don't need to sanction them to start conducting police work literally as a soldier in Kirkuk would engage a member of ISIS.

Maybe we should give the LVPD an Abrams tank so they can shell the hotel when this happens. I mean, why not? Stop the threat at all costs, right?

Anonymous AZFloyd October 03, 2017 8:35 AM  

@47

Modern day pigs present themselves as commandos. Therefore, I expect them to act like what a Ranger or typical Marine would do: intentionally run into the face if fire.... Like the Rangers did who saved the stupid Navy Seals In the book Not A Good Day to Die.

Blogger Phat Repat October 03, 2017 8:36 AM  

@55 If so transpired, then that's reasonable.

Anonymous Ages October 03, 2017 8:37 AM  

The 4 guys they had up there weren't swat sugartits.

Um, yes they were. When the team came up from their sweep of the 29th floor the officer on the 32nd floor ordered the team in the stairwell to wait until the door was opened by a SWAT officer, to avoid blue-on-blue fire.

Blogger Brad Matthews (Deplorabard) October 03, 2017 8:40 AM  

There is risk, but in urban combat you move and clear quick. That guy should have been taken out in 20 min. In war, you expect sbootouts. Cops never actually do for all the bluster. That, plus the chaos on the ground overwhelmed everyone. I've been on both sides, that required a rapid military style response. You can't wait 72 min to triage the injured.

Anonymous CoolHand October 03, 2017 8:42 AM  

dc.sunsets wrote:@47 "firing through walls and ceilings." Er, do I misunderstand what modern high-rises are made of? I thought the floors for sure were poured concrete, and the walls often are, too.

Floors and ceilings are almost certainly reinforced concrete, couldn't shoot through 'em if you wanted to.

Demising/partition walls on the other hand are most likely just metal studs with gypsum wall board on either side, maybe two layers to create a 1 hr fire wall every so often. Essentially transparent to bullets.

The staircases will be air gapped from the main structure and made entirely from either reinforced concrete or a steel skeleton sheathed in masonry (concrete block or "cinder" block). Not entirely impervious, but able to stop a stray round without issue.

You wouldn't be able to shoot from above or below, but a bullet would go through several walls on any given floor without even noticing them.

Anonymous Eduardo October 03, 2017 8:42 AM  

@CoolHand

It is starting to dawn on me, that maybe cops have problems XD. Seriously? A Hellfire!?! Wow, no wonder this whole militarization thing went all wrong. The cops really need to have a talk about proper use of Force. They sort don't get that people around them tend to be pretty nice, maybe they should do a tour on a shitty favela for a year just to get their facts straight, maybe see things differently.

Dude I can't believe anyone asks for an airstrike on a suspect XD.

@Ages

Don't give Nate ideas okay. He would probably do it and use a LAW at the guy Chuck Norris style.

Blogger RC October 03, 2017 8:47 AM  

There were other options here. Why did no one engage the shooter while he was standing in the window? I'm sure the LVPD has snipers. Even the street officers have rifles in their cruisers. I know there would be some risk of casualties but one must weigh risk versus reward. Taking the shooter out early would have obviously saved numerous lives.

Anonymous JAG October 03, 2017 9:06 AM  

Ages wrote:they did what they always do. they wait until the guy offs himself... then they bravely kick in the door and tell everyone they are heros.

Oh please. Why don't you just bust into the room of a heavily armed assailant, Mr. Longerdick? They had to be concerned about the safety of other hotel occupants (firing through walls and ceilings) as well as themselves.

I'm not sure what you really expected them to do. But I'm sure you could have done better.


That's pretty much what the real cop who stopped Charles Whitman did. Back then we had real cops, not the pussies who LARP as commandos while they steal cash and property from people who have not even committed crimes.

Anonymous Ages October 03, 2017 9:15 AM  

I know everyone is in shock over how something like this could happen, but I for one do not want to see our society overreact and go down dark alleyways like the Patriot Act because of this.

There is nothing reasonable that could have been done to prevent this. The guy broke so many laws before he even pulled the trigger, so what can you really do? Even if you militarize the police and respond within 20 minutes with guns a-blazing, it was already over by then. It would not have changed the outcome.

Blogger Brad Matthews (Deplorabard) October 03, 2017 9:15 AM  

Or just use an electronic key card

Anonymous Laz October 03, 2017 9:28 AM  

@Panzerman: Usually nicer hotels like that have triple drywall to suppress noise. Very hard to get through without some kind of tool.

Anonymous zebedee October 03, 2017 9:32 AM  

Following the creation of the first modern police force by Sir Robert Peel, the favoured recruiting pool for British bobbies was from the ranks of retired non-commisioned officers/petty officers. They may have not been the military but they were expected to have the skills/virtues of soldiers.

Anonymous SomeGuy October 03, 2017 9:32 AM  

If the first cops at the room on the 32nd floor could hear gunfire coming from the room, they had the moral duty to enter. A warrior spirit doesn't wait while dozens die. Ballistically breach the door, even with the Glocks. If that only damages the locking mechanism, continue the breach mechanically. Improvise a ram or kick it down. Enter and go to work.

There is a distinct possibility the mere act of BEGINNING the breach would have influenced the shooter to immediately commit suicide.

I know only one warrior in a hundred has the spirit required, but that's what somebody on the radio could have provided. Command and Control.

When hundreds are being shot, they're only 72 minutes away. What a freaking joke.

Blogger ZhukovG October 03, 2017 9:36 AM  

I used to have a 'badge and a gun'(hat tip to Gary North). I will put it plainly. Assuming no other mitigating information, the Las Vegas Police Department got caught with their panties around their ankles.

There is no excuse for a police department in a city this size to completely fail to engage a shooter. A city like Las Vegas should have a tactical team on alert 24/7. Failing that, there is no reason you cannot provide tactical training to a percentage of your patrol officers so that situations can be responded to in a timely manner.

You do not need to bust down the door, as Brad Matthews correctly observes. You do not need rifles in a hotel room. I would prefer to use my sidearm in close quarters.

As I said before, this was a failure of command. The Chief of Police should resign or be fired.

Blogger pyrrhus October 03, 2017 9:42 AM  

This thing is extremely fishy...http://raconteurreport.blogspot.com/2017/10/things-that-make-you-go-hmmmmm.html

Anonymous JAG October 03, 2017 9:43 AM  

SomeGuy wrote:If the first cops at the room on the 32nd floor could hear gunfire coming from the room, they had the moral duty to enter.

The government has absolved themselves from the duty to protect.

Also, they can lie to you, but you can't lie to them for fear of criminal prosecution even though you aren't under oath at the time.

Hell of a deal isn't it?

Oh, but that 2 grand cash you have on you for the big weekend party when you got stopped for a burned out bulb you hadn't noticed yet is ours now! Thanks serf, I mean citizen!

Blogger ZhukovG October 03, 2017 9:45 AM  

....of course maybe 'somebody', other than the shooter, wanted there to be a high body count. But surely 'no one' would be evil enough to delay the police response just so they could use 'The worst mass casualty shooting in American History', for political purposes.

That's just crazy talk.

Anonymous Anonymous October 03, 2017 9:47 AM  

@14

Vox,

You should look at the bright side here. A 64 year old man held the entire militarized police force of a city at bay for over an hour.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 03, 2017 9:48 AM  

I asked Weaponsman RIP about which SWAT teams were pro, he seemed to have knowledge of LEO SWAT training and he would only vouch for LA, NYC and the HRT. His rational was that only they had the resources to train continually as he said CQB demands repetition.

My local PD trains for with Simunitions but from what I seen they are the typical cops all ego and bluster and nearly useless to train because EGO. The only standard they can be trained to is how to keep pension at 50.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 03, 2017 9:54 AM  

And the typical American firearms training for civilians would have been tits on a boar useless. This far surpassed the square range training for that confrontation in the alley or hallway at two meters where every American becomes a gun fighter like an Earp.

I would recommend Max Velocity Tactical, his training runs from weapons handling up to CQB.

Blogger dc.sunsets October 03, 2017 10:01 AM  

@ coolhand, bullets go through one gypsum wall quite well. But (depending on the velocity, bullet shape, material and such) people seem to waaaay overestimate their propensity to keep going. As soon as a bullet's path is disrupted, it begins to lose velocity rapidly. I see tons of hand-wringing about overpenetration, but few people seem to have noticed that unless you're directly on the other side of the barrier, damage risk falls off steeply.

There's an entire school of thought that the 5.56x45 is actually safer in urban environments because the combination of velocity and bullet fragility make for less overpenetration.

I wonder if cop training should embrace the notion of, once figuring out where the shooter is located, entering an adjoining room with ballistic shields and then just raking the intervening wall with fire. Four guys, even with just 9x19 pistols, could surely disrupt the plans of someone on the receiving end of even random fire.

Blogger Cail Corishev October 03, 2017 10:03 AM  

Barney Fife wouldn't have waited 72 minutes for the shooter to kill himself. He would have got his one bullet out of his shirt (hand shaking), loaded it, and done his best. But the point isn't to bash cops (though their leadership at least probably deserves it). The point of driving home "72 Minutes" is to remind weak-kneed normies that "maybe we really should have more gun control and count on our fearless, heroic police to protect us" is a fantasy that will get them killed.

That's also why we shouldn't let anyone tell us not to pass around reports of the shooter being ISIS or Antifa, etc. Leftists aren't waiting until all the facts are in; they're doing their best to convince people he was a right-wing Trump-voting type through implication ("owned hunting and fishing licenses"). We don't have to know he was Antifa and/or ISIS, or know that he chose a country music crowd because it would include a lot of conservatives, to pass reports like that along to help counter the Left's narrative. If it turns out he was just a crazy with no political motive at all (awfully rare, but possible), no harm done.

Anonymous AZFloyd October 03, 2017 10:04 AM  

"SomeGuy wrote:If the first cops at the room on the 32nd floor could hear gunfire coming from the room, they had the moral duty to enter."

Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005), says otherwise. At least no legal duty.

Blogger Nate October 03, 2017 10:06 AM  

"I asked Weaponsman RIP about which SWAT teams were pro, he seemed to have knowledge of LEO SWAT training and he would only vouch for LA, NYC and the HRT"

the other issue here... is how did Vegas PD get caught so flat footed when they have been fretting and worrying about this kind of thing for a decade now. How many times has Vegas come up on various hit lists for terror groups?

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr October 03, 2017 10:19 AM  

I'm a little surprised that the LVPD isn't issuing patrol rifles. Shotguns are rather passé for law enforcement, precisely because a patrol rifle offers better range. Especially with an optical sight.

I also get the impression that the LVPD reverted to the "wait for SWAT" mindset, instead of engaging fast.

It will be very interesting to see the injury analysis. I'm betting that a high proportion will be from ricochets and spalling of concrete. The videos indicate someone blazing away at a large crowd with bullets addressed "To Whom It May Concern". Not sniper fire at a specific target.

Probably the biggest take-away is the need to be ready for engagements outside what is normally touted as "defensive" range.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 03, 2017 10:21 AM  

Years ago they were bragging on buying an urban combat vehicle, yeah so my guess is they have a gold plated diamond encrusted weapons locker, that is nearly useless because their officers do two things, train for retirement and have their shirts custom fitted so they can score tourist honey.

Anonymous Anonymous October 03, 2017 10:22 AM  

The shooter stopped after at most 20 minutes, right around the time police officers arrived.

There's no need for a dangerous breech entry if the shooter has stopped. Boobytraps.
Even if they had, with no fire the immediate danger has passed, no additional lives
would have been saved if they breached right away.

I listened to the scanner live. Because of all the false reports, the bad part was medical
teams were not cleared for a long time, too long to save lives. That would be one
item that should be addressed in the after-action review.

I find this second guessing humorously wrong. Compared to Mumbai, the LVPD is enormously more prepared. Could they do better? Sure, incidents like this always have lessons.

Blogger Gospace October 03, 2017 10:25 AM  

I'd like to see the photos of empty brass in the hotel room. There should be a minimum of 1,000 brass casings on the floor. Considering the casualty count and the fact he couldn't have actually been aiming at any particular target, probably 10X that or more.

Anonymous Anonymous October 03, 2017 10:36 AM  

"Considering the casualty count and the fact he couldn't have actually been aiming at any particular target,"

Good grief, it's a huge crowd at 400 yards. You have an MOA requirement of something like 100 or more, not including the fact that ricochets count, as well as pass-throughs. From various videos I'm going to guess on the order of 600 rounds (7-10 large mag changes), but could be off by 2x.

Anonymous fop October 03, 2017 10:39 AM  

Dispatch should have told the cops there was a bunch of hookers who needed interrogating on the 32nd floor. They'd have breached in under 30 seconds.

Anonymous Laz October 03, 2017 11:12 AM  

@dc.sunset: Most cops carry hollow point so blasting through a wall with 9X19 probably isn't going to do anything. Plus I can almost guarantee that's triple drywall in a hotel that nice.

Blogger Chris Mallory October 03, 2017 11:14 AM  

RC wrote:Why did no one engage the shooter while he was standing in the window? Would have to see the interior of the room. Reports have said he used a shooting platform/bipods/tripods. But if you know anything about urban shooting, unless you just have to you do not stand in the window to shoot. Stand,sit, set up back in the room where you still have a field of view on your target.

Anonymous a deplorable rubberducky October 03, 2017 11:24 AM  

Well, I'll say it again. Back in 2002 during the DC sniper episode, I saw firsthand how two numbskulls with one rifle could terrorize and disrupt life across an entire metropolitan region. We're very lucky these terrorists (yes, Paddock was a terrorist even if he had no connection to international Islamic terrorism) are so obsessed with grim poetry. Going out in a blaze of sick glory, etc.

Many have often theorized here that with a little know-how a pro-team can disrupt a power grid, a water supply, etc. But in truth all you need is one motivated scumbag with a rifle. Doesn't have to be an automatic rifle - shouldn't be, in fact. Gun-and-run sniping with a common deer hunting rifle is more than enough and will keep a city hunkered down and panicked for as long as it can be kept up. Three long weeks, in our case.

And there is next to nothing authorities can do to stop it until they do what ours did and get really lucky.

Anonymous Ages October 03, 2017 11:35 AM  

The government has absolved themselves from the duty to protect.

Of course. Because if they did have a duty to protect, suddenly everyone who is ever injured in a freak incident like this one starts suing the police because they aren't omnipresent and make mistakes.

Yeah, I know the police are far from perfect, but I'd like to see you pick a fight with a half dozen automatic weapons in a potentially boobytrapped hotel room.

I don't see the police's role as being cannon fodder. These things happen in life, unfortunately. Stop blaming the police like a bunch of leftists; the fault lies with the criminal.

Blogger Ned October 03, 2017 11:52 AM  

FWIW, Billy Beck has an analysis of sound wave peaks recorded from video: https://www.facebook.com/billy.beck.18/posts/10210446777107143

Blogger Chris Lutz October 03, 2017 11:55 AM  

Back in the early 00's they had a reality show that lasted for one season where they had groups of specials forces, socom, and SWAT guys compete against each other in different military situations. The LA SWAT guys, although being older on average, were the best ones.

Anonymous Jack Amok October 03, 2017 12:02 PM  

Matt Dillon and Joe Friday are both fine models for a police officer, but Joe Friday doesn't need qualified immunity and tacticool gear.

Anonymous Some Guy October 03, 2017 12:05 PM  

Can anyone point me towards a timeline that shows the duration of firing?

Blogger Ingot9455 October 03, 2017 12:10 PM  

Good stuff, Ned. A belt-fed weapon to start with would be a good answer for all the bump-fire vs. magazine stuff.

Blogger J Van Stry October 03, 2017 12:11 PM  

When danger reared it's ugly head,
The LVPD waited until it was dead!
Brave,
Brave,
Brave,
LV!

Anonymous SomeGuy October 03, 2017 12:12 PM  

Ages wrote "
I don't see the police's role as being cannon fodder. These things happen in life, unfortunately. Stop blaming the police like a bunch of leftists; the fault lies with the criminal."

I think there is room here for investigation of what appears to be incompetence by the LVPD. Would you call this a stunning success?

Nobody's asking them to be cannon fodder. There are several possible scenarios of how reality played out. None of them particularly flattering for LVPD.

Anonymous Gurpgork October 03, 2017 12:38 PM  

Mister Excitement wrote:Alex Jones said on his show just yesterday that gun store owners are reporting that Leftists are buying and training with weapons like they've never seen before.

Don't worry about it, the cucks reassure us that when they finally react it will be over in days!
Try not to confuse their restraint with cowardice. /sarcasm

They remind me of that guy that keeps yelling at his friends to hold him back...
Meanwhile the left is actively preparing for conflict. gg ff

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener October 03, 2017 12:38 PM  

The police inside the hotel failed to do anything at all to hinder the shooter. The police outside, many of whom did have rifles, failed to engage. Meanwhile they stopped armed citizens from responding. LVPD was actually worse than useless here.

I guess a lot of the LVPD defenders here want cops to just write traffic tickets and arrest kids for smoking the reefer.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener October 03, 2017 12:42 PM  

I don't see the police's role as being cannon fodder. These things happen in life, unfortunately. Stop blaming the police like a bunch of leftists; the fault lies with the criminal.

In that case the police don't need the state to issue them weapons and they shouldn't stop armed citizens from responding to ongoing crimes.

Blogger VD October 03, 2017 12:45 PM  

I don't see the police's role as being cannon fodder. These things happen in life, unfortunately. Stop blaming the police like a bunch of leftists; the fault lies with the criminal.

Drop your rhetoric, cucky. The police are the servants of the State and they completely failed in Las Vegas. They literally did nothing to stop the guy; he suicided.

Anonymous Hezekiah Garrett October 03, 2017 1:02 PM  

Found the cop.

Either you're heroes who protect us by rushing boobytrapped sniper nests, or...

You're just violent thugs seizing our cash and property for a pension from our rulers.

Pick one and, for God's sake, STFU.

Anonymous Ages October 03, 2017 1:10 PM  

They literally did nothing to stop the guy; he suicided.

I'm a cuck because I can give a fair and realistic assessment of what happened? Why don't you listen to the entire police scanner sequence, or a couple hours of it at least, and get back to me? Because this is 9/11 Truther tier second-guessing; as if ATC was magically able to find the plane even though there were eyes in the skies everywhere. Surely they're just incompetent! It's not that it's a big sky!

The police are servants of the State, and I'm not saying there is no room to learn from this. But this attack was unprecedented, and again—it was over before any cops even arrived on-scene. Had they busted in the second they arrived, nothing would have changed.

Anonymous Gen. Kong October 03, 2017 1:15 PM  

I wonder how much this has to do with burdensome rules about how cops ought to proceed.

A team of Dirty Harrys might have shot first, no questions later. Now everyone wants to pin cops as the bad guys when they take out the bad guys.


To extent true, but mainly used as an excuse. The badge-gang goondas had no problem going all dirty harry in Charlottesville, and in supporting Antifa and BLM in general against whites whenever the opportunity arose, etc. - even against Trump supporters last year in Chicago and San Jose. Even in Las Vegas, they murdered a vet in Sam's Club for legally carrying concealed. The only time a badge-gang goonda gets charged for killing someone is when they kill dindu criminals. If the shooter turns out to be Antifa, the badge-gang standing by while he raked whites with machine guns - because they were under orders from the cloud people and their various lickspittles to do so - would fit the pattern we've seen repeated elsewhere.

Stop blaming the police like a bunch of leftists; the fault lies with the criminal.

The badge-gang bows and scrapes to leftists as a daily ritual. The ((($PLC and ADL))), two very well funded Marxist organizations devoted to destroying public safety, basically issue directives which are then parroted by the local mayor, chief or whichever similar government employee who they own at a given locale. Police are ordered to treat actual violent criminals with kid gloves and ordered to lie about racial attacks on whites - and they always obey because the precious. No matter what the order, they obey. Oafcuckers. All part of anarcho-tyrrany - the system under which every western country is ruled by the cloud people.

Blogger Lovekraft October 03, 2017 1:16 PM  

I remember the 9/11 Commission testimony from (IIRC) Richard Clarke, head of the FBI or something and he stated:

Much of the blame lies squarely with both political correctness and territorial in-fighting that prevented action in a timely manner (they had tabs on the ringleaders/flight training etc but couldn't act).

I believe this is an extension of this rot.

The brave and astute get pushed out by careerists and cowards. Many suffer as a result.

Political correctness (or whatever you want to call it here) kills.

Blogger Lazarus October 03, 2017 1:47 PM  

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/10/02/iraq-war-veteran-helped-direct-cops-to-vegas-shooters-room/

This story doesn't make any sense. This guy says he called police immediately about shots being fired and they phoned him 10 minutes later saying they got the shooter.

Anonymous DANZIG WITH THE STARS October 03, 2017 1:50 PM  

here is where i am at right now: the whole thing stinks of smelly mor_on undergarment and gefilte.

i am going with mor_on mafia/jew mafia ties to this one. if any of you know the scene in las vegastan and south nevada- you would begrudgingly admit this.

mgm ceo murren owns mandalay bay. that guy's wife was an obama board appointee. murren himself demanded his employees donate money to adl, splc, naacp, and cair. he was a never trumper...the business environment in las vegastan is just a bunch of lds and jews battling and sharing billions of dollars. (((adelson and wynn))) along with the (((goodman mayor dynasty))) duking it out with zio mormons like black eye reid and his gang of cult idiots. no doubt jews would love to push out some goyim of their property value and ownership.

the only company that didn't lose big money over the last two days due to this incident was (((wynn))). keep in mind they are pushing that raaaidderrrrrz stadium kibbutz dome bullshit- the largest tax payer ripoff in usa history. a scam in a city of scams? ...i'm shocked, shocked... there is big money and these properties are at stake. big fucking corrupt money. these people happily tank each others' businesses. the (((goodmans))) want their name on the kibbutz field...

the fbi in LV would need an office the size of LA and NYC combined to get after all the corruption in las vegastan...remember the mormon/jew/fbi teamup to get control of the city's cash from the italians...the grand bargain was an enormous infusion of mor_ons to take over the running of the resort financial operations, all because they were perceived as being more honest and good with money. that by default has resulted over the decades in LV fbi offices having a ridiculous and discriminatory relationship re: the amount of mor_on agents and other personnel.

basically, there is an appalling lack of federal law enforcement interest in las vegastan..understaffed and staffed with unwilling mor_ons that look the other way- and you get unresponsive and unproductive results. for the amount of human garbage the city attracts, the LV metro is shockingly bad, probably one of the worst for a bigger city. not a surprise they were undermanned, outgunned, and pretty much stood down outside the asshole's suite.

personally there is so much shit that does not add up. the whole isis thing being pushed hours after the shooting and into the morning was obviously jewish bullshit, and of course the media ran with it. the stories of the police eventually shooting the guy, but then we see photo of him with a bullet through his mouth and head ie: suicide...the scanner all night had multiple shooters. the bad guy has an odd background. claims he was a millionaire, but claims he was in debt. mor_on looking brother claims he didn't have guns, but we know he did. hell, he bought all his guns from mor_on gun dealers.

the biggest red flag is: what kind of person would shoot a crowd of beautiful all-american people? beautiful all-american women, and their kickass pro america men? a crowd of the most obvious trump supporters? . . . in las vegastan- i would say big gov deep shit state mor_ons and commie jews . . .

they are together an anti-american unholy duo and acted out on their satanic dna





Blogger DonReynolds October 03, 2017 1:56 PM  

"Minute 19: they had 4-man team on 32nd floor, another 4-man team arriving. Reporting definitively a 2nd shooter. Problem - police lacked rifles."

This should have been the end of the event. The first team should have breached the door to stop the shooting...either by arresting or killing the shooter(s) or by engaging the shooter (and creating a distraction). Four police officers can take one or two shooters, particularly if the shooters weapons are firing out the window! By this time, they had 8 police officers available.

The police lack of rifles is totally baloney. In a hotel suite, big caliber pistols would be more effective between the breached door and the shooting window.

No mention at all of using smoke or incapacitating gases or flash grenades to stop the shooting.

Police could have also shot through the wall of the hotel suite on either side to the shooting location at the window, without breaching the door. I am certain they had up-to-date floor plans of that particular hotel suite, so they could fire with real precision from either adjacent hotel suite.

Blogger Ken Prescott October 03, 2017 1:58 PM  

Forget minute of angle, minute of barn would suffice...

Blogger Were-Puppy October 03, 2017 2:02 PM  

@72 ZhukovG
As I said before, this was a failure of command. The Chief of Police should resign or be fired.
---

I noticed this on their website:

Employment
Recruiting, hiring and training qualified and diverse individuals to serve the Las Vegas community are central to the successful achievement of our mission. Apply today!

The chief may have been some kind of diversity hire who didn't have a clue wth to do .

Blogger Ken Prescott October 03, 2017 2:07 PM  

In a society of litigious Monday morning quarterbacks, any organization will default to doing nothing.

Because the alternative is to risk shooting Mr. Dindu Nuffin, who was a GUDE boy, turning his life around...he had his hands up, but the racist pigs offed him...be wasn't the shooter, he was trying to stop the real shooter, blah blah blah...

You can't be successfully sued for doing nothing. You might be successfully sued for doing something and screwing up.

Blogger Ken Prescott October 03, 2017 2:12 PM  

If they don't have rifles, they don't have smoke, CS, or flash-bangs, either.

That was a luxury suite, multiple rooms. Four guys with pistols might be enough. Then again, maybe not. And if they aren't, then there's a very good chance the entire team of bad guys gets away clean because no one is left to contain the floor...

Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 03, 2017 2:16 PM  

It seems little is coming out on this Paddock guy, no social media, no neighbors telling us his quirks and no hotel employees remembering what a tool he was.

Kind of strange

Blogger J Van Stry October 03, 2017 2:20 PM  

#110
Why breach the door? They should have had a key from the hotel and just opened it. Remember the guy in the room is now DEAF. He's been shooting in a room and he's not going to be hearing anything. Like say cops opening a door and walking up behind him.

Even if he barricaded the door, if they just started shooting through it while he was firing, he most likely would not have even heard them.

If the timeline presented above is correct, it really doesn't say a lot for the LVPD that they were apparently too afraid to do anything.
(I took a CCW class in LV about two years ago, the instructor, the former head of security for a major Casino on the strip had no kind words for the abilities of the LVPD.)

Blogger Ken Prescott October 03, 2017 2:21 PM  

Possible explanation:

1. Manchurian Candidate. That is the worst case.
2. Derp State operator.
3. Dead patsy left behind to cover for Derp State operator.
4. Brain tumor causing massive personality shift.

Anonymous Anonymous October 03, 2017 2:21 PM  

Also, all this Monday Morning quarterbacking is based on the post-incident knowledge that there is one shooter. The police don't know that at the time. The suite could be full of shooters. You don't send 4 cops with handguns in against an unknown opponent that has stopped firing at the crowd. The ROI is simply not there.

Blogger Ken Prescott October 03, 2017 2:23 PM  

You are making the assumption that the cops could correctly guess how many shooters were present.

Now...what's the fallback for guessing wrong?

Blogger DonReynolds October 03, 2017 2:29 PM  

@74 JAG
"Also, they can lie to you, but you can't lie to them for fear of criminal prosecution even though you aren't under oath at the time."

Unless you are the complaining party, the only thing you should be saying to the police is....

"I want my attorney present."

Practice saying that, until you can mumble it when you are half-conscious. There is nothing else you can say to the police (and you do not correct or dispute any accusation they make.) Keep your mouth shut except to demand an attorney.

Blogger Were-Puppy October 03, 2017 2:35 PM  

@115 Mr.MantraMan

Kind of strange
---

Kind of CIA MKULTRA

Blogger Were-Puppy October 03, 2017 2:36 PM  

@116 J Van Stry
#110
Why breach the door? They should have had a key from the hotel and just opened it. Remember the guy in the room is now DEAF. He's been shooting in a room and he's not going to be hearing anything. Like say cops opening a door and walking up behind him.
---

Part of the story is that he had cameras set up.

Blogger DonReynolds October 03, 2017 2:47 PM  

@114 Ken Prescott
"That was a luxury suite, multiple rooms. Four guys with pistols might be enough. Then again, maybe not. And if they aren't, then there's a very good chance the entire team of bad guys gets away clean because no one is left to contain the floor..."

At 19 minutes, they had 2 teams of 4 armed police officers at the hotel suite. That makes at least 8 trained shooters. If there were two bad guys in the room or an entire team, the need to engage them would have been even more urgent.

(Charles Whitman in Austin was taken out by one Mexican-American cop, acting on his own. There was no SWAT. There was no body armor. Nothing but courage and a .38 service revolver...)

What? If the bad guy is reloading, you need to wait until they start shooting again? So more people on the ground should get killed while we make sure he is still dangerous.

As for the bad guys making an escape, there is nobody leaving unless they can sprout wings and fly. The ground level was swarming with cops and 32 floors is a long walk.

Blogger Ken Prescott October 03, 2017 3:02 PM  

1. You keep assuming that the number of shooters is known with some precision. It wasn't. A former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff once stated that 90% of first reports and 80% of second reports are going to be wrong. I believe those figures to be incredibly optimistic.

2. Whitman was a very different time, before the Left resurrected it's love of violence as political theater.

3. They come down the fire escape screaming about armed lunatics shooting. Unless the cops are arresting every single person coming down the stairs, they will get clear unless the floor is contained.

4. 8 guys who probably know of each instead of knowing each other, with pistols against one coordinated team with heavy weapons, acting boldly and with violence of action? My money's on the latter.

Blogger spacehabitats October 03, 2017 3:06 PM  

If only the LVPD had known that the shooter was a white male, they could have launched an RPG into the Mandaly and never been questioned.

Anonymous Gen. Kong October 03, 2017 3:06 PM  

Gen. Kong wrote:

Given that the officials behind the story and the (((fake news))) have a decades-long record of lying about basically everything, one would be extremely foolish to ever take the word of known liars as being true about anything at all. The only bit of truth they will ever tell would be that which supports their narrative. You can often tell more about the nature of a given event by their proposed actions in response to it.

There's another detail that seems to be in the process of being shoved down the memory hole: the woman who came into the adjacent bar to scream warnings of how 'they are going to kill everybody and have us surrounded' (or something very close to it). The initial (((fake news))) theory, that this was Paddock's girlfriend, turns out to be false, as said GF was located by authorities in Tokyo and is now 'no longer a person of interest' - itself a curiosity as Paddock may have been using her ID to buy things and purchase hotel rooms, etc. The woman who issued the frantic warning 1/2 before shooting commenced is therefore unknown. If it was Paddock's GF, how is it that she was in Tokyo so soon?? This is why the folks at /pol need to be on this.


Looks like the narrative is starting to leak. See the response to my post at the other thread. Badge-gang goondas ordered to stand-down/go slow. Looks like it might have been an Antifa operation (which is basically same as government operation, with different goondas). The official story is not adding up.

Blogger DonReynolds October 03, 2017 3:08 PM  

You want an escape plan?
A 64 year old millionaire, real estate investor, frequent gambler hardly needs an escape plan.
He also has a 62 year old girlfriend.
All he needed to do is dress in pajamas and have girlfriend to likewise in another suite on the same floor.
After 15 minutes of full automatic fire, he could slip into the other suite and be evacuated with the other hotel guests. The police are not going to ask too many hard questions before letting him leave.
These are not the droids you are looking for.

Anonymous peter October 03, 2017 3:15 PM  

We don't want soldier cops.. That would be a bad idea. The issue was swat..they needed to be in the game 5 minutes after the start of the shooting.

Anonymous Gen. Kong October 03, 2017 3:25 PM  

GF is Indonesian (Indonesia, you know - the place where magic negro Housenigga Hussein attended skool while mommy worked for CIA) with Australian passport. ISIS, a division of the CIA and Mossad, already claimed responsibility. Shooter had no job for past 20 years, lived off gambling supposedly, yet could afford 2 planes and high-roller clubs in Nevada. Much bad smell here, kemosabe.

Blogger DonReynolds October 03, 2017 3:31 PM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Elder Son October 03, 2017 3:32 PM  

Ages wrote:they did what they always do. they wait until the guy offs himself... then they bravely kick in the door and tell everyone they are heros.

Oh please. Why don't you just bust into the room of a heavily armed assailant, Mr. Longerdick? They had to be concerned about the safety of other hotel occupants (firing through walls and ceilings) as well as themselves.

I'm not sure what you really expected them to do. But I'm sure you could have done better.


What is amusing, they dress up in military combat attire, call themselves "operators", get a hard-on by all the he-ro accolades from the booboisie, and then can't even act like it.

Breaching is not a difficult concept, considering these guys supposedly train extensively to do just that. Of course it is dangerous, but that is the job they took to be call "operator", I mean SWAT. F*king pussies. Hundreds of Marines breached day in and day out in Falluja. The first thing we ought to do, is take away their "I'm an operator" gear from them.

Blogger Jon Mollison October 03, 2017 3:38 PM  

"It's a bit of a prisoners dilemma situation. You are basically in a corral and if you are in the center you have 2 options."

So the solution is to stay out of the center of large crowds. I know, "don't get in that situation in the first place" is a bit of a cop-out, but if you're looking lessons to learn from this, that's definitely one.

Be aware of your surroundings, know where the exits are, and if you do find yourself in a large crowd, try to stay on the fringes.

I've kept that in the back of my mind since Nice. That attack was so sudden and the crowd reaction so fast that a lot of people missed that the largest impediment to getting out of the way of a speeding truck is the crowd itself.

It's a lot more obvious in the Mandalay videos. They give you a nice long three minute shot of people lying down and waiting to die, and in many cases blocking those few with the presence of mind to try and get the heck out of there. You can hear the shouts of, "get down" and "stop moving around", and in one case a guy physically restraining his date from leaving.

Don't be that guy, but also don't put yourself at that guy's mercy, because his brain has been subsumed by crowd psychology.

Blogger DonReynolds October 03, 2017 3:39 PM  

peter wrote:
We don't want soldier cops.. That would be a bad idea. The issue was swat..they needed to be in the game 5 minutes after the start of the shooting.


Too late, Peter.
Do you not know how many policemen are ex-combat veterans? Why do people keep bringing up the issue of militarization of the police? .....because so many of them are former military. The 16 years of warfare in Afghanistan and Iraq has produced a bumper crop of combat vets.

My girlfriend's Hispanic brother-in-law is a good example. After Vietnam, he was assigned to an Army unit assisting in Central and South America for the CIA. Then he became police SWAT, then police SWAT instructor. So what does he do now? He does campus security for local public schools around Corpus Christie.

Blogger Elder Son October 03, 2017 3:41 PM  

Remember, these are the same guys who think, "Do I shoot her, or tase her", a 81 year old great-grandma with a frikkin rake. They tased her, but let be known the would have been perfectly justified in SHOOTING her.

These are your f**cking heroes.

Anonymous Anonymous October 03, 2017 3:43 PM  

" Remember the guy in the room is now DEAF. "

Wow, we are dealing with some seriously amateur Monday Morning QBs here.

Let me give you a clue - I haven't shot without amplifying earmuffs in years, including hunting. I even keep them on my safe, because for a decent pair tactical awareness is enhanced. I can hear pigs rustling in the bushes or someone rummaging through my living room from pretty far away.

https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Sports-Outdoors-Hunting-Shooting-Earmuffs/zgbs/sporting-goods/3413511

Do please try to learn something about modern firearms shooting. Maybe go to the range.

Blogger Elder Son October 03, 2017 3:53 PM  

@135 Which means? The guy was wearing tactical earmuffs? I doubt it.

And a good portion of my hearing loss is due to, guns. But we didn't have all that fancy shit back in the day, except for foam ear-plugs.

Anonymous Anonymous October 03, 2017 3:55 PM  

"Which means? The guy was wearing tactical earmuffs? I doubt it."

20/20 hindsight. Maybe. Still don't know. At the time you won't know how many or how prepared. The tech is easily available so one should assume they have it.

If you are the one who has to make entry, risking your life, you don't assume deafness. You throw in a flashbang. THEN you assume deafness.

Blogger Elder Son October 03, 2017 4:02 PM  

@137 You throw in a flash-bang is a no-brainer regardless. No one is thinking, "Gee golly! I hope he doesn't have EARMUFFS!" FFS.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener October 03, 2017 4:06 PM  

If I'm going to be doing much shooting at all, for anything larger than a .22LR, I wear rubber earplugs with baffles and Howard Leight electronic earmuffs on top of those. For hunting I only wear the Howard Leights.

This is pretty mature technology so it's not unrealistic to speculate that the shooter would have had these. If you have the luxury of knowing that you're about to do a lot of shooting, and if you're not planning on killing yourself in the very near future, then it's advantageous to wear some ear protection.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener October 03, 2017 4:09 PM  

I'm starting to think that LVPD's procedures were inspired by Demolition Man.

Anonymous Daniel H October 03, 2017 4:15 PM  

@15 VD
>>Don't know what they teach in the military, but the first thing I'm doing when I hear bullets going by or striking the ground around me is MOVE.<<

This happens in war too. I have read enough accounts of green American soldiers in WW2 who immediately hit the ground and stayed there when coming upon German entrenched positions. It is a natural impulse, but deadly. The trained officers (often green themselves) would try and drag them onto their feet and get them moving forward. It was the safer and necessary thing to do. It never occurred to green GIs that Germans would have had the entire field of fire pre-sited and there was nowhere to hide and the only way to live was to get up there and rush and kill the German. But it is human nature. To hide with the pack. To hunker down. This works well for a wildebeest on the Serengheti but not for a soldier in a shooting zone.

Anonymous Anonymous October 03, 2017 4:43 PM  

""Gee golly! I hope he doesn't have EARMUFFS!" FFS.".

Okay, we have agreement. You don't assume they are deaf.

Now, did the cops @ 20 minutes have any way to distract the shooter(s) at T+20 minutes? Nope. No flashbangs, no breaching charges. That's what SWAT is equipped for. The only distraction would have been additional gunfire by the suspect(s), which in case the ROI for entry have pointed to "do it".

At T+20 minutes, there was no good ROI for entry. You wait for SWAT.

Blogger Were-Puppy October 03, 2017 4:49 PM  

Good graphics here of the room, hotel, area, etc.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-03/vegas-shooter-filmed-himself-during-slaughter-suicide-photo-emerges

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 03, 2017 4:53 PM  

"I'm a cuck because I can give a fair and realistic assessment of what happened?"

They're paid to be men of action. They are not behaving as men of action. You're defending them. Yes, you're police-awe-cucked.

Blogger Ken Prescott October 03, 2017 5:01 PM  

They are NOT paid to be men of action. Being a man of action means that a transgender Eskimo or a guy bitching about how we wuz kangz an'shit might be offended. And we can't have that.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener October 03, 2017 5:02 PM  

@142 Shooting through doors and walls isn't ideal but in this situation it would have been far better than just sitting there while a killer is blasting away at a defenseless crowd. This is such a no-brainer.

Blogger Elder Son October 03, 2017 5:03 PM  

Falluja: Okay guys, before we start breaching, we need to set up a command post, for every house we breach. Who's going to get the starbucks? I said, who is getting the starbucks! Okay, we need a layout out of every home we will be breaching today. How many rooms. We need to know how many Hajji are in each home. What kind of weapons the have and how many. If we don't have that info, we wait until we do. And for gods sake, I don't care how many they are actively killing, do not move until we have this info!

The starbucks is no joke. I was listening to a police scanner of this happening at one of the older mass shootings while they we setting up their command post. Forget which one.

Blogger tublecane October 03, 2017 5:05 PM  

@10-"I don't want this country becoming a police state"

But we already have militarized police forces. Aside from riots and terrorists, this is supposed to be what they're for: Charles Whitman-type situations, which beat cops are ill-equiped to handle.

If we can't use them in such circumstances--and they were useless, because apparently they got to the guy after he offed himself--what good are they? Aside from shooting the family dog in raids on white picket fence houses to find and ounce of weed.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener October 03, 2017 5:06 PM  

Fake police.

Anonymous Anonymous October 03, 2017 5:09 PM  

"Sitting there while a killer is blasting away at a defenseless crowd. "

You really need to go read some timelines. The shooter had stopped blasting away at the crowd by 20 minutes, about the time cops (and apparently a hotel security guard) showed up at the hotel room.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 03, 2017 5:12 PM  

"You can't be successfully sued for doing nothing."

You can if you're being paid to do it, or if you're in the military or an analogue and your directives order you to do it.

"Four guys with pistols might be enough. Then again, maybe not. And if they aren't, then there's a very good chance the entire team of bad guys gets away clean because no one is left to contain the floor..."

If there's an entire team with automatic rifles, four guys with pistols aren't going to stop them in the hallway. This isn't even a good rationalization.

"Also, all this Monday Morning quarterbacking is based on the post-incident knowledge that there is one shooter."

No, all of it is not based on that. Try again, cucky.

" You don't send 4 cops with handguns in against an unknown opponent that has stopped firing at the crowd."

He had not stopped firing when the first team arrived. That was five minutes later when the second team of four arrived.

"Now...what's the fallback for guessing wrong?"

They're still being paid to do it, so either get in there and do it or resign and give up your pension because you refuse to do your damn job when it might not be safe.

"Part of the story is that he had cameras set up."

To film himself.

"8 guys who probably know of each instead of knowing each other, with pistols against one coordinated team with heavy weapons, acting boldly and with violence of action? My money's on the latter."

Ken, there's precisely one person firing FROM THAT PARTICULAR ROOM. It is plain as day that the officers could TELL that too.

Now, what are the chances that a "team" are going to call attention to themselves with JUST ONE MAN FIRING while the rest are just sitting there waiting for the cops to attack so that they can kill cops? NO CHANCE AT ALL.

There are two people in the room, tops.

The police on-scene were either craven or receiving (and obeying) orders from one. End. Of. Story.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 03, 2017 5:13 PM  

"They are NOT paid to be men of action. Being a man of action means that a transgender Eskimo or a guy bitching about how we wuz kangz an'shit might be offended. And we can't have that."

Wrong, cucky. Screw you and the horse you came in on.

Blogger Elder Son October 03, 2017 5:14 PM  

Re: "I don't want this country becoming a police state"

What does SWAT breaching a hotel room to engage an active shooter have anything to do with becoming a "police state"? That is what they are extensively training for, supposedly.

But then, this wasn't a soft target where they can all high-five afterwards and pretend they did actual "operator" work.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 03, 2017 5:15 PM  

"You really need to go read some timelines. The shooter had stopped blasting away at the crowd by 20 minutes, about the time cops (and apparently a hotel security guard) showed up at the hotel room."

The SECOND team of FOUR cops. The first team arrived at ten to eleven minutes in.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener October 03, 2017 5:21 PM  

The first team of cops was sitting there with their thumbs up their asses for 10 minutes minimum. That's an eternity.

Blogger Ostar October 03, 2017 5:32 PM  

He seems to have left a note. Pictures released today of the room show a pen and paper with something on it right near the body.

Anonymous Clouseau October 03, 2017 5:34 PM  

In my US city, maybe some of the cops have rifles in the trunk, but I've never heard of that, or of one ever being used. I used to be a scanner geek. Sometimes they would dick around with a situation for twenty minutes just waiting for a sergeant to show up with a taser, which they considered a special weapon. In the case of somebody holed up with a gun the main thing they concentrate on is getting people evacuated from the area.

I'm not defending any of this, just saying what I learned about how they do things these days.

Anonymous patrick kelly October 03, 2017 5:35 PM  

It also sounded like EMT didn't get cleared to help anyone out in the open during most of the time because the police had not gone in a confirmed the shooter was down or no longer a threat. People bled out and died who could have been saved because of this.

Blogger Noah B The Savage Gardener October 03, 2017 5:45 PM  

@158 At the same time the EMTs were waiting, at least one Marine made several trips carrying wounded to the hospital in a commandeered truck. The citizens decisively outperformed the so-called professionals.

Blogger tublecane October 03, 2017 5:46 PM  

@133-"Why do people keep bringing up the issue of militarization of the police? .....because so many of them are former military"

That, but moreso because of their gear and tactics. Not when facing actual emergencies, apparently, but when facing the family dog.

Much of what they do makes no sense, and comes off to me like boys playing war. For instance, why do they dress up in black like ninjas in broad daylight, with their backs emblazoned with the word "POLICE" in giant letters? I understand if it's a night raid and you're trying to maintain the element of surprise bed yelling "Police!" as you knock down walls and plow through pets. But when there's no need, and you just look like a ninja for no reason, I don't get it.

Cops are supposed to be identifiable. That's so people can't shoot back and claim they didn't know. I don't see why their little commando squads can't wear bright orange like hunters. Instead, they have their cake and eat it to. "Look at me, I'm a ninja" doesn't make sense.

Blogger Jon Mollison October 03, 2017 5:49 PM  

@159: "First responders" is a perfectly Orwellian description of the lot of them. I have no animosity to EMTs or cops, only to false descriptions of them. They are more accurately called "eventual responders".

Blogger tublecane October 03, 2017 5:54 PM  

@150-He stopped shooting after 20 minutes? Oh, well why didn't the cops just go home, then? It was housekeeping's job.

Blogger DonReynolds October 03, 2017 6:06 PM  

Clouseau wrote:In my US city, maybe some of the cops have rifles in the trunk, but I've never heard of that, or of one ever being used.

My uncle Bill was a cop in Reno, back in the 1950s. He said they had a "riot gun" mounted in the squad car, which was an M-1 carbine. This would normally be available enough except during a biker convention, when a minor disturbance turned into a riot. The rioters had broken one of his arms and cut up his face. The main problem for him was the fact that it took two hands to release the riot gun from under the seat. Lucky for the rioters, his broken arm kept him from getting the gun free.

In more recent times, the "riot gun" was often a 12 gauge pump, mounted vertically in front of the center console. Now that nearly all squad cars have something like a laptop computer mounted in that same location, perhaps the "riot gun" has been moved to the trunk of the squad car.

My girlfriend has been a patrol cop since I have known her (but not presently). I will ask her when she gets in, where they keep the long gun.

Anonymous Ages October 03, 2017 6:16 PM  

He had not stopped firing when the first team arrived. That was five minutes later when the second team of four arrived.

He was only firing for nine minutes total. Are you seriously claiming they had a SWAT team at his door within 4 minutes of the first round?

Blogger DonReynolds October 03, 2017 6:18 PM  

I have seen police cars with pump shotguns mounted on gun racks, across the top the the front bench seat. But that probably made more sense when they worked in pairs...one to drive and the other to do the tool work.

Anonymous Clay October 03, 2017 6:29 PM  

I try not to be one of those "conspiracy types", but something stinks here.

Especially about the shooter's "girlfriend/roommate".

She's in Australia, Tokyo, Philippines, etc. and our vaunted FBI can't get their hands on her. So they say.

Blogger Elder Son October 03, 2017 6:45 PM  

Re: Strobe light from lower floor.

You've all seen or heard about it. The first one was captured from a parking lot and real shaky/grainy.

There is another video. Taken by a taxi driver. It's pretty interesting. It gets even more interesting WHEN SHE CAPTURES that same "strobe light" from the street she is driving on and from a different angle.

Watch the whole thing. Also note the police chatter from her taxi.

Strobe light starts at 4:47 mark. Pay attention. Also note the you see the flash, then you hear it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNiRr763gJA

Blogger Matamoros October 03, 2017 6:57 PM  

Latest from Jim Stone:

THIS IS WHAT AN AK-47 LOOKS LIKE AT NIGHT

This video is also cached on this web site and can be saved with a right click. Muzzle flash video http://82.221.129.208/akmuzzleflash.mp4


My comment on this video: This plainly proves no one was shooting from the hotel, it is SO FREAKING BRIGHT no one in a million years could possibly have missed it, no video camera would either, it probably would have put flashes across the entire face of the hotel. This is also far brighter than what the people claiming the shooting happened on lower floors are showing as examples. No missing windows there plus not bright enough equals squad car strobe relections.

This stands as evidence the shooting happened from behind the stage lights, as I said, because only the stage lights could have possibly concealed the flashes. There is all kinds of video of this shooting and no flashes like this to be seen in any of them. The only light source bright enough to hide that much of a flash at night was the stage lights. The stage lights are clearly shown in the video I posted below, And have also also re-linked here. http://82.221.129.208/beginningofshooting.mp4 This is a crucial video I am serving from this site, because it contains the key info that destroys the official lie. For the accompanying report, scroll down to the headline "Shooter could not have been at Mandalay Bay".

Blogger Elder Son October 03, 2017 7:03 PM  

Uh... possibly, if he had his weapons hanging out the window to light up the immediate area of the outside wall.

Blogger Elder Son October 03, 2017 7:05 PM  

Here is the original 1st shaky/grainy video: https://youtu.be/JgQRdSBFivg?t=30s from the other angle.

Blogger Geir Balderson October 03, 2017 7:08 PM  

72 Minutes!
59 dead due to police sloth.

SWAT in Vegas means,,,, Slowly, Waiting And Thinking.

They wait and congregate and build up a huge force to be invincible and folks die. A small group of brave heroes could have taken down the guy or guys in oom 32 in 15 minutes. IMHO.

Blogger Geir Balderson October 03, 2017 7:12 PM  

Oh, and one more thing. With all of those Police milling about, how easy would it have been for the bad guys, dressed up as police, to quietly melt away? Just wondering.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 03, 2017 7:13 PM  

"He was only firing for nine minutes total."

Funny, record I'm seeing says he was firing for fifteen minutes.

Blogger tublecane October 03, 2017 7:19 PM  

@173-That's what the Joker would've done.

(Plus, he would've left Batman's girlfriend tied up against the gun in the hotel room, and Commissioner Gordon in am undisclosed location strapped to a bomb, and everyone in the crowd would've been tricked into shooting themselves, and somehow Batman would be forced to choose between nabbing the Joker and saving a puppy from being strangled to death.)

Anonymous DissidentRight October 03, 2017 7:29 PM  

I was told I could have liberty or security. Since security is clearly impossible, I think I'll be having my liberty back.

Blogger Ken Prescott October 03, 2017 7:45 PM  

It's rather interesting to see people demanding that the police be brave and virtuous risk-takers on behalf of the citizenry...after 25 years of the political establishment--elected by that same citizenry--throwing them under the bus, subjecting them to double jeopardy, and generally crapping all over them if the optics are less than perfect.

What the hell were you expecting from the police on this Year of Our Lord Two Thousand Seventeen? FFS, people, have you not been paying attention?

Anonymous Peter October 03, 2017 8:03 PM  

@134

"Do you not know how many policemen are ex-combat veterans? Why do people keep bringing up the issue of militarization of the police? .....because so many of them are former military. The 16 years of warfare in Afghanistan and Iraq has produced a bumper crop of combat vets."

I know this.. and its a problem.. vastly different skill sets for 99% of the tasks.. the swat guys can be ex mil but the first line cops, it only leads to problems, corrected .. has led to problems.

Blogger Elder Son October 03, 2017 8:11 PM  

@177 Oh sure, they're brave and brutal when it costs them nothing, and easy pickins.

Anonymous Peter October 03, 2017 8:12 PM  

@177

I dont expect the cops to do anything... while their motto is protect and serve it been proven time and time again that their main function is pick up the bodies and fill out the report. You are responsible for your own safety. .. this starts by staying out of shit holes like Vegas..

Anonymous CoolHand October 03, 2017 8:12 PM  

dc.sunsets wrote:@ coolhand, bullets go through one gypsum wall quite well. But (depending on the velocity, bullet shape, material and such) people seem to waaaay overestimate their propensity to keep going. As soon as a bullet's path is disrupted, it begins to lose velocity rapidly. I see tons of hand-wringing about overpenetration, but few people seem to have noticed that unless you're directly on the other side of the barrier, damage risk falls off steeply.

There's an entire school of thought that the 5.56x45 is actually safer in urban environments because the combination of velocity and bullet fragility make for less overpenetration.


Go look up "The Box of Truth" on YouTube and watch their series on testing defensive handgun and rifle rounds against gypsum wallboard, I think you'll enjoy it (and maybe somewhat surprised).

TL;DR - If it has enough oomph to penetrate 14" in ballistic gel, then it's going to go through four to six partition walls with enough force to be lethal on the other side. Even 5.56.

Their testing DOES bear out your theory of 5.56 being more fragile than 9mm (especially ball), but the difference is 6-8 walls for 5.56 vs 10-12 walls for 9mm (IIRC anyway, it's been a while since I watched all their videos).

Anyway, it's an interesting series of videos, well worth having a look at just to see how different ammo and calibers reacts to gyp board.

Anonymous Vigilance October 03, 2017 8:13 PM  

Luckily there is Catherine Herridge who is able to get across what i needed to know. Sad they but i believe the victims are in a better place and will see there loved ones again.

Anonymous Avalanche October 03, 2017 8:42 PM  

@74 Liked this comment from that site you linked (http://raconteurreport.blogspot.com/2017/10/who-how-why-and-wtf.html):

A Texan said:
...
I would caution everyone here to ignore a lot of the "facts" out there. What I have observed is that whenever there is a terrorist incident or mass murder, whatever you hear in the first 2 days afterwards is generally a bunch of crap. What I do look for, though, is snippets of information that don't fit the dialogue that the powers that be want us to have, which snippets disappear without explanation. Those are significant.

Anonymous Clouseau October 03, 2017 8:50 PM  

Rifle policy for police probably varies by city. Rifle bullets go a lot farther than pistol bullets or shotgun pellets, so there's more risk of accidental hits downrange. Definitely more of a liability risk in urban areas. The average cop is only marginally trained on pistols (they get to take the qualification tests until they pass, which means statistically they just keep trying until they randomly get enough shots on target). Even if a city issues rifles they would hopefully only go to higher-trained officers.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 03, 2017 9:07 PM  

"It's rather interesting to see people demanding that the police be brave and virtuous risk-takers on behalf of the citizenry...after 25 years of the political establishment--elected by that same citizenry--throwing them under the bus, subjecting them to double jeopardy, and generally crapping all over them if the optics are less than perfect."

Since you're not getting it, to be completely plain:

#1: Yes, the police are originally hired as effectively a band of well trained, well organized mercenaries that are paid to take care of whatever would-be criminals they can. This being paid as a sort of "permanent standing military force" included taking care of violent criminals ASAP, obviously.

#2: Yes, the purpose of the police has (inevitably) shifted over time, in function if not in (supposed) form. Now they're many of them are there for no much better reason than to enforce laws and project governmental power.

The original post is to make this shift plain to people, people who would otherwise argue with the eternal "but the police are there to protect us!" No, no they are not. They DO NOT CARE about you, they care about their paycheck and their pension, and the person writing their paycheck only cares about the appearance of law and order, not the actuality of it. The person paying their pension only cares about retaining power.

THIS is why the right to keep and bear arms is so important, because when push comes to shove or an emergency happens, no one else is going to be there to protect you. The police are no heroes, even if they are paid to be. They're bureaucratic enforcers, and many of them will not put their neck on the block for anyone else, with all those who will doing so because of their religion rather than their paid-duty.

This is the same sort of deal as the Catalonia vs Spain thing. We know that whether or not they should risk themselves (they should, because it's ultimately the people who are paying them to keep the peace, even if the corrupt officials and officers in between have managed to distort that over time) or not, they largely won't, for whatever inept excuse. Much like Catalonia has stupid reasons for trying to leave Spain in the first place, but because Spain (and many, many other people in different countries) needs to get out from under its burden of lies, and the pain of Catalonia's shenanigans is the only way to make people up.

When Spain proves by its actions that it does not exist for or by its falsified ideals, there's our goal. When people scream at the police for not protecting them, and get the response "but I'm not paid to do that..." or the more honest "no way, that's your problem, I've already got my hand shoved into your pocketbook without doing that", that's our goal.

Blogger Meimou October 03, 2017 9:50 PM  

The post was removed

Blogger Meimou October 03, 2017 9:50 PM  

The post was removed

Anonymous Mike Rock October 03, 2017 9:51 PM  

From WND:
Someone is shitting someone...

The sheriff confirmed earlier reports that at least one of the rifles was modified with a “bump stock” device used to speed up the discharge of ammunition. Paddock had enough ammunition “to continue shooting a lot longer” than the nine minutes he fired on the concert goers but was engaged quickly by police and private hotel security.

The sheriff said his agency learned from studying other active shooter operations, specifically the one at the Pulse Nightclub in Orlando, that it’s better to go in quickly and engage the shooter than to wait for an army of police to arrive and seal off a perimeter.

The sheriff said the quick police action saved dozens of lives that potentially could have been snuffed out by a man with such firepower at his disposal. He had 17 guns and at least 1,000 rounds of ammo in the hotel room.

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2017/10/shooter-in-bloody-vegas-gun-massacre-was-longtime-federal-agent/#8LjuZFtkDibKYYoR.99

Blogger Rough Carrigan October 03, 2017 9:56 PM  

How the hell was he "engaged" by police and hotel security? Did the leave him a ring at the bottom of a glass of champagne?

Blogger Cail Corishev October 03, 2017 10:19 PM  

The sheriff said a few interesting things.

Anonymous Jack Amok October 03, 2017 11:13 PM  

What does SWAT breaching a hotel room to engage an active shooter have anything to do with becoming a "police state"? That is what they are extensively training for, supposedly.

That's the thing. If they're not going to use all their fancy gear, training, firearms and legal immunity in that exact situation, then WTF do they have it for?

I'm perfectly willing to accept anyone's comments that we shouldn't expect police to charge into that room, as long as that person will acknowledge the cops don't need guns, armor, protection and authority.

They're either the Big Damn Heroes who risk their lives in that situation, or they're the clerks who take notes on the clean-up crew. Either one is a perfectly decent, honorable job. But you have to pick which job you're going to do and stick with it.

Anonymous cletus beauregard October 03, 2017 11:51 PM  

re. #9 Are SWAT teams like QRF (Quick Reaction Force)? Are SWAT guys on standby at the police station 24/7?

I don't know.
----
In my big city, no. For budget reasons, the shift SWAT guys, who otherwise are on regular duty, would have to go to the collection point, grab their gear and then go to the scene.

A 60 minute response time isn't inconceivable. But 72 min. on the Strip? Good thing the Strip isn't an internationally recognized magnet for people. oh wait.

Blogger Elder Son October 03, 2017 11:59 PM  

@191

Having at one time worked at a shop that contract auto work for the SBCSD, the SWAT guys, when working patrol, kept their gear in a go bag in the trunk.

I did a break light once, and the gear practically fell out if the trunk when I opened it. I've seen M4 auto's, 203's, flash bangs, smoke, hundreds of rounds of hornady ammo, combat vests, radios, SWAT you name it, withing arms reach working on cop cars.

Anonymous liljoe October 04, 2017 12:18 AM  

This guy was another Bernie bro, one of these boomer freaks watching Maddow and Joy Reid daily. There must be a lot of intelligence regarding motive because it appears they've come to the realization it will be difficult if not impossible to cover up.

Blogger S. Thermite October 04, 2017 1:38 AM  

As far as police rifles go, even pre-911 I remember seeing a university police car with an H&K or Sig rifle where the 12-gauge riot shotgun would have normally been. Seemed completely out of place at the time. Post-911 I've walked by a parked, unattended police motorcycle with a freaking AR locked upright and exposed to the elements in a bracket on the back. That was in a metro area with less than a half-million residents . The idea that Vegas PD or even casino security didn't up-arm themselves with rifles after the North Hollywood bank robbery shootout in 1997 seem ludicrous.

New outlets are currently reporting the police narrative that the shooting went on for 9 to 11 minutes from start to finish. Are they lying to make themselves look better? It will certainly be interesting if evidence is presented to prove them wrong. Maybe it's in the scanner recording, but I haven't had time to listen to the whole thing myself.

Anonymous Ages October 04, 2017 6:30 AM  

The security guard apparently approached the room, which Paddock saw via his cameras, and that’s when he shot through the door. Since the shooting out the window stopped at that point, he probably panicked and offed himself.

Blogger Ken Prescott October 04, 2017 7:25 AM  

Azure Amaranthine wrote:"They are NOT paid to be men of action. Being a man of action means that a transgender Eskimo or a guy bitching about how we wuz kangz an'shit might be offended. And we can't have that."

Wrong, cucky. Screw you and the horse you came in on.


Ooh, he's an edgy alt-right guy. He calls people "cucky" when they point out actual facts, like the political climate that big-city cops are stuck working in.

Azure Amaranthine wrote:#1: Yes, the police are originally hired as effectively a band of well trained, well organized mercenaries that are paid to take care of whatever would-be criminals they can. This being paid as a sort of "permanent standing military force" included taking care of violent criminals ASAP, obviously.

#2: Yes, the purpose of the police has (inevitably) shifted over time, in function if not in (supposed) form. Now they're many of them are there for no much better reason than to enforce laws and project governmental power.


You forgot #3: When the electorate in major cities insists on re-electing the same politicians that demand the cops' heads when things LOOK bad (not actually GO bad, just LOOK bad), that insist on double jeopardy when juries hear the case and acquit, et cetera...the cops aren't going to do #1 at all, and they're not going to do #2 under any condition where risky action might be necessary (witness the post-Eric Garner NYPD--remember how that particular fiasco came to pass, Commissar Billy wanted the cops extracting more tax revenue, and he threw them under the bus the instant it went south). They've been doing that 25-30+ years (if you include Philadelphia and the MOVE mess). That's a generation of cops who've been conditioned by the Skinner Box of politco-media reaction that the one smart move, the one move that they won't get hammered for, is to do nothing until the department general counsel has determined that doing something will not offend the Dindus, intersectional feminists, or La Raza.

The electorate of Las Vegas has voted for this forever--the place is a Democrat stronghold, it's why Nevada goes blue every damn election. Just like the electorate of Catalan voted for secession, the electorate of Las Vegas voted for the police to take a knee and wait for orders if it was even remotely possible that the shooter was named Dindu Nuffins or shouting "ALOHA SNACKBAR!" They may have been too stupid to know or care that they were doing that, but the Universe has long since run out of f***s to give.

Anonymous Ages October 04, 2017 8:28 AM  

For those asking, “How is it a police state for police to respond quickly and effectively?”

In order to respond quickly and with adequate force to a battlefield-like scenario (essentially an elevated gun turret) would require military-like police training and equipment on standby 24/7, possibly staged in various locations for rapid deployment.

Is that the kind of society you want to live in? Because I don’t. There would be no difference between that and deploying the actual military. Why not have the national guard take over policing?

I’d rather take the risk and live in a less militarized society that is expensive to maintain, in more ways than one.

Not saying the police are without fault. But if you already think cops are dicks, do you want them to be dicks with heavy weapons and military efficiency?

Anonymous Avalanche October 04, 2017 9:43 AM  

@101 "Meanwhile the left is actively preparing for conflict."

What makes you think WE are not actively preparing for conflict -- and HAVE BEEN doing so for decades?

Fait vous jou: a 50-yr-old man who has been shooting and working with his guns for the past 30 years, or the angry hostile snowflake CHILDREN who are buying guns today?

Yeah, there's gonna be blood and death either way... but there's gonna be blood and death either way, so which way do you bet?

Anonymous Avalanche October 04, 2017 10:07 AM  

@121 "Unless you are the complaining party, the only thing you should be saying to the police is....
"I want my attorney present."
Practice saying that, until you can mumble it when you are half-conscious. There is nothing else you can say to the police (and you do not correct or dispute any accusation they make.) Keep your mouth shut except to demand an attorney."

Old, bad advice. Catch-up to the current year!

https://www.corneredcat.com/dont-talk-to-the-police-good-advice/

https://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comments/5sicm5/the_law_of_self_defense_by_andrew_branca/

https://legalinsurrection.com/2014/10/debunking-dont-talk-to-police/

http://blog.lawofselfdefense.com/2016/05/28/one-drawback-to-the-say-nothing-to-the-police-approach/

That a person who has acted in lawful self-defense has no reason to defer saying so, because acting in lawful self-defense is LAWFUL.

If you’re going to EVER claim self-defense as a justification for your actions, you’re necessarily going to HAVE to concede it was YOU who executed that use of defensive force, ANYWAY. So there’s absolutely no legal harm that can come to you from stating to the police at the scene–I acted in self-defense–what you’re inevitably going to have to state later on in the process, anyway.

The advantage of the “Say NOTHING” approach is that if you say NOTHING, then nothing you say can be used against you in court.

But don’t for a moment imagine that the “Say NOTHING” approach doesn’t also come with some very substantial baggage. Being made to look as if you fabricated your claim of self-defense after the fact is just one of the weaknesses of the “Say NOTHING” approach.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4wws6SVHjo

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