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Monday, October 02, 2017

90 percent for independence

To absolutely no one's surprise, the Spanish attempts to stop the Catalan independence referendum completely backfired:
Catalan officials claimed 90% of 2.2 million voters had called for independence in an 'illegal' referendum blighted by violent scenes which left at least 888 people injured. World leaders condemned the brutal scenes after officials revealed that hundreds of protesters have been injured so far. Officers were seen kicking and stamping on protesters as they stormed buildings and seized ballot boxes.

Footage captured in the village of Sarria de Ter in the province of Girona showed authorities using an axe to smash down the doors of a polling station where Catalan president Carles Puigdemont was due to cast his vote.  He said the region had won the right to become an independent state with the referendum results due in a few days. And in Barcelona, the region's capital, officers fired rubber bullets at thousands of protesters demonstrating against their votes being denied.
Now, I am as dubious as anyone else about the accuracy of the reported vote. But seriously, who on Earth is advising the Spanish government? One would think they actually wanted Catalonia to successfully succeed, given how inept and counterproductive their crackdown was.

Labels: ,

120 Comments:

Anonymous Steve October 02, 2017 8:06 AM  

Time for Madrid to cut its losses. They can't put these Cats back in the bag.

Next up: the Basques.

Blogger ZhukovG October 02, 2017 8:08 AM  

Exactly, though the count may be fairly accurate. What 'No' voter in their right mind would risk injury to cast a ballot in the middle of a violent crack down.

Anonymous Steve October 02, 2017 8:15 AM  

And props to Puigdemont. Much as I dislike what the fake nationalists in Barcelona stand for, he's played this one masterfully.

Goaded the Spanish bull with the elegant cruelty of a matador.

Rajoy is now being advised to impose direct rule on Catalonia. That would be tripling down on estupido. Spain doesn't need its own version of Troubles-era Northern Ireland.

Best to admit they've lost and work on an orderly Caxit.

Blogger Lazarus October 02, 2017 8:20 AM  

Its been reported that 750K ballots could not be counted because boxes confiscated.

5.3M registered voters, 2.2M vote, .75M ballots lost. 90% of 2.2M/5.3M = 37% of registered voters.

But notice how quickly they were counted. US Federal Elections Commission take note.

Blogger ZhukovG October 02, 2017 8:24 AM  

@Lazarus: In our(USA) enlightened democracy it takes time to provide voting access to the vitally and documentation challenged.

Blogger Sillon Bono October 02, 2017 8:24 AM  

ZhukovG wrote:Exactly, though the count may be fairly accurate. What 'No' voter in their right mind would risk injury to cast a ballot in the middle of a violent crack down.

Before any of this referendum nonsense, can you point to examples of the Catalonians who don't want to secede voicing their opinions?

No? do you know why that is?

Because if they do they will become ostracized by the Catalonian government, fined, harassed by the secessionists and eventually they will have to leave Catalonia, like many of us had to do over the last 25 years.

The central government has been warned for months that if they went against the law this would happen (this = riot police sent to charge) that is how Spain works, it happened to Antifa too a few weeks back.

The Spanish riot police is not made of wimps like in London for example, in Spain you face the consequences of not dispersing when told to.

But whatever, whatever we say the poor Catalonians were abused and beaten up, muh democracy, muh feelings and muh independence.

The law and whatever the other people is saying doesn't matter as long as the narrative fits my beliefs.

And yes, I do believe the Spanish government has been incredibly stupid. (this doesn't mean the secessionists are right)

What the Spanish government should have done months ago is to take away these comfy for life jobs and pensions the Catalonian politicians enjoy since 1978 at the expense of the Spanish citizenry taxes.

They would have recanted very quickly if this was to affect their pockets.

And why didn't the government do this you may ask? Because by the same laws the separatists are trying to break prohibit it.

Talk about the evilness of the Spanish constitution.

Fuck everybody who was injured last Sunday, they knew what would happen with the riot police and they brought elderly people and children as human shields.

Blogger The Kurgan October 02, 2017 8:28 AM  

Spaniards. See the effects of Islamic colonisation over a few centuries? It reduces national IQ to barely above that of apes. One can only hope other European nations take note of this and start a European pushback that results in Constantinople returning to being called Constantinople.

Anonymous Steve October 02, 2017 8:29 AM  

The law and whatever the other people is saying doesn't matter as long as the narrative fits my beliefs.

Welcome to Earf.

Anonymous Steve October 02, 2017 8:31 AM  

I love the Spaniards. Great guys, great paella. Really hugely great, big league.

But they're just off-brand Italians, am I right folks?

Anonymous Ryan ATL October 02, 2017 8:32 AM  

What would it mean for Barca /etc

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/41460584

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 02, 2017 8:34 AM  

#Fakenews

Blogger ZhukovG October 02, 2017 8:36 AM  

@Sillon Bono: It doesn't matter who the bad guys and good guys really are. Madrid is now painted as the bad guy and it doesn't wash off easily.

The Spanish government screwed this up so badly, one almost believes it was intentional.

Oh, and Spain should keep any American warship's out of its ports. The US Navy is kinda accident prone and one of our ships blowing up in Cartagena could be bad.

Anonymous NadieEspera October 02, 2017 8:37 AM  

Señores, no se molesten. Si quieren una cámara de eco, tendrán su cámara de eco.
Total, no vale la pena intentar convencer a cuatro frikis pirados.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd October 02, 2017 8:39 AM  

``Now, I am as dubious as anyone else about the accuracy of the reported vote.''

The Spanish government attacks have given the Cats perfect cover to make up any number they want: any ``mis-statements'' which are eventually uncovered can be blamed on confusion and lost ballots caused by Spanish violence.

90% seems like a sweet spot for a lie: high enough to be great propaganda, not high enough to be clearly impossible.

It sounds as if there are no good guys in this fight, as is often the case.

Anonymous NadieEspera October 02, 2017 8:43 AM  

Por cierto, la sanidad pública catalana es cojonuda. Ayer, 893 inocentes ciudadanos fueron heridos por las maléficas FYCSE españolas, y hoy sólo quedaban 4 (cuatro) ingresados.

Katalonia, Katalonia über alles!

http://www.libertaddigital.com/espana/politica/2017-10-02/la-generalidad-habla-de-893-heridos-pero-solo-cuatro-siguen-en-el-hospital-1276606833/

Blogger Sam Spade October 02, 2017 8:52 AM  

My opinion is that the central government is not incompetent but malicious.

Yesterday the unanimous opinion here in Spain is that Rajoy messed up this bad. By the way, there were a lot of protests across Spain included Madrid complaining about govern management of the Catalonian situation.

So they not only fucked up 4GW oriented to the international opinion, but also inside Spain.

That doesn't mean people buys Catalonian bullshit, but maybe it's the beggining to the restarting of Spain nationalism against Spanish statism. Haven't seen so many Spanish flags across building balconies in a lot of years

Anonymous VFM #6306 October 02, 2017 8:56 AM  

Doesn't matter that if it is Fake News. The epithet only works when you have the moral high ground. Spaniard thugs don't. So fake "purple fingers" will work as rhetoric when the truth the "lies" defend (people have a right to choose) is superior to the noble lies that the opposition defends (Spain has a constitutional right to beat the hell out of Catalonians.)

Rhetoric 101.

Spain blew it, much like the NFL owners blew it. What a backdraft!

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother October 02, 2017 9:07 AM  

All the Spaniards commenting on this post talking shit about the Cats are cowardly little bitches.

Tough talk against an easy target like the Cats. Why don't you do something about the Moors who are overrunning your country AGAIN.

Quick quiz. Which event will destroy Spain?

1. Catalan independence
2. Muslim hijrah (demographic invasion)

Anonymous EH October 02, 2017 9:09 AM  

If it will make the Spanish government feel better, to make up for losing tax-paying Catalonia maybe we can give Puerto Rico back to Spain? Es Rico, verdad? Says so right on the label.

Blogger Ghesthar October 02, 2017 9:17 AM  

The vote count could be entirely accurate, because those who oppose independence may agree with the gov't and not recognize the legitimacy of the vote, and therefore may not have voted - just self-selection bias.

Blogger August October 02, 2017 9:18 AM  

Hey Madrid, you have to call them Nazis first. Then violence against them is suddenly okay.

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) October 02, 2017 9:20 AM  

Stolen from elsewhere:

AIDE: the Catalan people, they don't like Spain very much

SPAIN: hm. what if we sent some cops to kick hundreds of grandmas down the stairs

Anonymous NadieEspera October 02, 2017 9:26 AM  

Llegará un día en que uno de estos no se confunda entre Austria y Australia, paréceme. Mientras tanto, no veo mucha diferencia entre usar español y usar guiri.

Blogger seeingsights October 02, 2017 9:34 AM  

Zero Hedge recently put up a pretty good piece about the independence vote. My takeaway is that Spain's debt might increase to levels not acceptable to the EU. In response, the EU will attempt to force austerity on Spain, like they did to Greece. That in turn will cause a reaction against the EU.
These are the last years for the EU!
We live in amazing times!

Anonymous darkly enlightened October 02, 2017 9:39 AM  

You are idiots for thinking that Catalan independence will garner any prominent western support. This is not a Kosovo scenario, with a nominally pro-west muslim populace opposed to already demonized pro-Russia christian slavs. Here tho, Spain is a good, obedient NATO, EU democracy. Standard, anti-nationalist, anti self-determination attitude will be taken.

Anonymous johnc October 02, 2017 9:40 AM  

Why does this all sound like another Jew trick?

Blogger Sam Spade October 02, 2017 9:43 AM  

@seeinsights "Zero Hedge recently put up a pretty good piece about the independence vote. My takeaway is that Spain's debt might increase to levels not acceptable to the EU. In response, the EU will attempt to force austerity on Spain, like they did to Greece. That in turn will cause a reaction against the EU.
These are the last years for the EU!
We live in amazing times!"

I hope you are right.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 02, 2017 9:45 AM  

Because of the visible schnozz and self-warming hands protruding past the corner over there?

"You are idiots for thinking that Catalan independence will garner any prominent western support."

Why would we even bother to think that it will when we can just look and see that it has and is already? Productive simple observation for the win.

Anonymous Lars Porsena October 02, 2017 9:48 AM  

Popular support has no tanks to send. Moral victory contains no territory. Western governments, worried about 500 other separatist factions, are not going to bomb Spain into submission for Catalonia.

Spain hasn't even fully unleashed the fiscal stick, apparently because it prefers the literal stick, which I expected would be the case because it's Spain.

They've done a very good job winning the moral battle but I'm still waiting for the covert buildup of tanks to appear. If they have no tanks for the physical battle they are missing step #2.

#1) Moral victory
#2) ???
#3) Independence!

Blogger Johnny October 02, 2017 9:53 AM  

There has long been a mean edge to the Spanish people, and apparently it continues despite their current slacker mode. I am always suspicious a thing like that could have a genetic basis. But what would seem more likely is that it is a cultural tendency that comes from the long period of Arab occupation.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine October 02, 2017 9:55 AM  

"They've done a very good job winning the moral battle"

No, Spain has absolutely lost the moral battle. Demonstrations of hypocrisy tend to do that to you.

"Popular support has no tanks to send."

Doesn't matter.

"Moral victory contains no territory."

You could not possibly be more wrong. Immediate territory? Perhaps not. Eventual territory? ALL OF IT.

"Western governments, worried about 500 other separatist factions, are not going to bomb Spain into submission for Catalonia."

Doesn't matter/they don't need to.

"Spain hasn't even fully unleashed the fiscal stick"

My understanding is that Catalonia holds a bigger section of the fiscal stick than Spain does currently.

Blogger J.M. October 02, 2017 9:56 AM  

darkly enlightened wrote:You are idiots for thinking that Catalan independence will garner any prominent western support. This is not a Kosovo scenario, with a nominally pro-west muslim populace opposed to already demonized pro-Russia christian slavs. Here tho, Spain is a good, obedient NATO, EU democracy. Standard, anti-nationalist, anti self-determination attitude will be taken.

At this point in time, you are the idiot if you haven't realized the NATO (and the US especially) have a penchant to leave its allies high and dry. Moreover the Catalonian movement has won the propaganda war so far even if, to anybody who knows the situation, the referendum was not only illegal but probably rife with voting fraud in all its forms and the very Catalonian cause for independence is based on a mountain of lies. What matters is perception and Rajoy and the central government have done everything to ensure a dreadful ending...for Spain.

I can safely predict that Catalonia will, in all likelihood, secede from Spain in a 5 year timeframe and by then will have if not the full recognition of the EU, a special status, like Turkey and unlike it, will be on the pipeline to become a full-fledged member, an example of tolerance having the highest percentage of Muslim population in Europe. The Question is: Will the Spaniards awake or will the Spanish state dissolve to become a dozen taifas "coordinated" from Brussels, put as an early model for the disintegration of the rest of European states? Remember that unlike the Catalonians, The Basques have a far more credible claim for independence (even if they resort to lies like "Spain robs us").

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar October 02, 2017 10:00 AM  

In Spanish we have a saying that goes "son todos los que están, y están todos los que son", which makes a word game out of the two verbs we have for "to be", ser and estar.

In English, it could translate as: "everyone who is, is there, and everyone who is there, is". This referendum was a party for the already convinced; the people against it did not consider it legitimate (since it was against the law) and simply did not go to vote.

The conclusion being that we don't know anything we didn't know before or that we couldn't find out through accurate opinion polling. Aproximately 50% of Catalans support independence and are, by the way, incredibly militant and mobilized, thanks to years of constant propaganda through schools, tv and radio, etc. D'oh. Nothing new under the sun.

This referendum was a propaganda stunt played masterfully by the separatists, and I gotta say, as a proud Spaniard who considers Catalonia to be a part of his nation, that Catalonia is very close to gaining independence. How? I don't know, but clearly the Spanish government and our retard of a president couldn't possibly have done a more disastrous job.

For months, Rajoy knew that Catalan nationalists were fantasizing with footage and photos of people being "beaten" by the police. Well, he gave them precisely what they wanted, which makes one wonder. By the way, police violence was minimal, and ridiculous if we compare it to how the police handled demonstrators in countries like Belgium, France or Germany during the "austerity years". The figures of "800 injured" are absurd; at this moment there are 4 people at the hospital. But what does it matter... truth does not matter, what matters is perceived truth, and this has beautifully fed the separatist narrative of a tyrannical Spanish state. The fact they have rebelled against the Constitution is never brought into consideration.

Whatever will be, will be. But the answer to the question "cui prodest?" in this case couldn't be clearer. All of this benefits the EU. Initially the EU was a club of several states with shared interests. Now the EU is an entity that is separate from those states and whose main interest is to weaken those states. Brussels as great coordinator of a swarm of weakened defenseless states is the main goal; obviously, they still need to go easy on it as it might discomfort states like France or Italy, which, no doubt, would take any necessary measure to preserve their national unity.

Blogger Johnny October 02, 2017 10:12 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous Lars Porsena October 02, 2017 10:16 AM  

One additional factor here could be the refuge crisis. It probably does not help Catalonia because I doubt MENA and SSA immigrants will vote for or support Catalonian independence from Spain. And I kind of suspect they might actually be willing to crush it for money if someone pays them.

Italy appears to have effectively stopped the migration route from Libya to Italy in response to center right and far right victories in local races this summer. Italy has shut down all the NGOs smuggling migrants, now requires them to have Italian police onboard all their ships to observe. Additionally there is the Italian redneck navy who have taken to shadowing and observing the NGOs. And then also the Italians gave 2 ships, 1 interceptor and 1 support ship, to one of the civil war factions (the UN reconized one) in Libya and is paying them to make the problem disappear. Catalonian NGOs have already been chased off with warning shots from the new Libyan lend-lease navy.

So if Hungary is closed and Italy is closed, where does the migrant crisis migrate to next? Is Spain prepared? Has anybody got a deal to pay the Moroccans to sink to jetskis in the straight?

But one must consider the factor of Spain too. Unlike Germany and Italy, Spain may not need to pay off Moroccans to do their dirty work for them due to squeamishness. They might be willing to sink the jetskis themselves... because they are Spain, not the UK.

#31 Azure - you misread me. "They" is Catalonia, not Spain.

As far as who has a bigger fiscal stick, I kind of suspect that they are both flat broke and in debt to Germany. It is Spain after all. You cannot rebel against Daddy if your plan is to have the revolution financed with Daddy's credit card. He will cut you off. The question is, who is Daddy? Who has the credit card? If it's Angela Merkel she definitely will not finance Catalonian rebellion.

Kurdish independence doesn't look very good right now but to me it looks like they have more chance than Catalonia. Kurds have tanks.

Blogger Jan Minář October 02, 2017 10:21 AM  

In the UK, counting commences as soon as the polling stations close, in full public view (TV cameras present), and usually last into the wee morning hours only. "Stored" ballot boxes have a peculiar habit of getting "lost" or "found".

Anonymous Pie October 02, 2017 10:25 AM  

Star Trek discovery is getting a huge ass audience

So much for "SJW" convergence scaring away audiences!

Anonymous NadieEspera October 02, 2017 10:30 AM  

¿Superioridad moral? Sí, de acuarela.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLHhmuqXkAEWTkz.jpg

Anonymous Yann October 02, 2017 10:31 AM  

Total, no vale la pena intentar convencer a cuatro frikis pirados.

NobodyExpects AKA NadieEspera, if you're gonna insult the people here, the least you can do is to do in English, so they can understand you.

Insulting people here in a language most of them can't understand is not gonna improve the image of Spanish people.

Blogger Jan Minář October 02, 2017 10:32 AM  

You don't need tanks. Trucks of peace and pipe bombs will do just fine. And you absolutely cannot hold a territory if its inhabitants are willing to make sacrifices in order to deny you, unless you're willing to go full genocide.

Anonymous Athor Pel October 02, 2017 10:35 AM  

"33. Blogger Alvin von Diaspar October 02, 2017 10:00 AM
,,,
The fact they have rebelled against the Constitution is never brought into consideration.
"


Just for clarity's sake...

A constitution is a piece of paper. Saying people rebelled against a piece of paper doesn't make logical sense. People rebel against other people, against people that normally have authority over them.

The core of the matter, in a nominally democratic society all the people make a conscious choice of who will rule over them. That is choice of persons.

Also, the decision over the shape or specific type of government was made in previous generations. Most or all of those original choosers are dead. The living people never got a voice in that decision, unlike the choosing of contemporary rulers.

If we take it that the will of the people is what gives legitimacy to government, (type and persons), then any current government type not chosen explicitly by those now governed is not legitimate.

The same argument can be made for taxes. If you didn't explicitly vote for the tax yourself then it's not a legitimate tax.

Anonymous c matt October 02, 2017 10:35 AM  

successfully succeed

Is there any other way?

Anonymous Yann October 02, 2017 10:36 AM  

Star Trek discovery is getting a huge ass audience. So much for "SJW" convergence scaring away audiences!

Reviews are extremely negative:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5171438/reviews?ref_=tt_urv

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar October 02, 2017 10:42 AM  

Athor Pel

Well, the rebelled against the current legal framework, the foundation of which is the Spanish Constitution.

Now, if we want to replace the rule of Law with some "organic" notion of law, with "evolving interpretations", etc., then you get precisely what's happening in the USA right now, where judges are creatively re-interpreting the US Constitution and subverting the intentions of the founding fathers all the way.

One day SJW might conform a clear majority and might say that they "didn't vote for the US Constitution" and that freedom of speech is overrated. Laws against freedom of speech may be passed and judges might decide that the Constitution is just a peace of paper and might interpret it creatively under the guidance of the "spirit of the time".

For better or for worse, the rule of law is the only formula that we humans have devised to be able to construct civilized, peaceful societies. Anything other will lead to social enthropy and final destruction.

Anonymous NadieEspera October 02, 2017 10:51 AM  

Vete a tomar por donde amargan los pepinos, catalufo supremacista. Aunque te guste.

Anonymous Yann October 02, 2017 11:19 AM  

Aproximately 50% of Catalans support independence and are, by the way, incredibly militant and mobilized, thanks to years of constant propaganda through schools, tv and radio

While the local TV is usually pro-independence, national TV channels are anti-independence (or pro-Spain). Unless people in Spain, people in Catalonia can check both sides of the story in TV. Indeed, there's more national than local channels, so most of TV channels are anti-independence, even in Catalonia.

This referendum was a propaganda stunt played masterfully by the separatists, and I gotta say, as a proud Spaniard who considers Catalonia to be a part of his nation

It's NOT up to you, or to Spanish people, to decide which nation they belong.

People of any nation are free to accept (or not) other people inside their group. This is their right. But it's not their right to force them into being Spanish.

For any group of people or nation, to be part of a larger group, or to be part of a larger nation, two things are required: (1) to be accepted inside that group and (2) to be willing to be part of that group. Both are necessary. Any of them not happening, it means no deal.

By the way, police violence was ridiculous if we compare it to how the police handled demonstrators in countries like Belgium, France or Germany during the "austerity years".

There's a big difference between violence inside a group against conflictive members, and violence from one group against another group.

This case, it was not violence towards conflictive people no matter their origin. It was specifically violence by Spanish police aimed towards Catalan citizens, including elder people. It was violence organized by people from one nation (Spain) against people from another nation (Catalonia).

It was about Spanish people sending their thugs to beat down Catalan people while screaming "Go for them! go for them!!". Here you have videos from different cities in Spain (most of them in the South of the country) celebrating the Spanish police going to beat down Catalans, screaming "Go for them!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA1Sw-szU6w

And they went for them.

The figures of "800 injured" are absurd; at this moment there are 4 people at the hospital.

Injuries from police batons (nightsticks) doesn't require admission in the Hospital, but being stitched in Urgencies.

There's nothing strange with those numbers.

But the answer to the question "cui prodest?" in this case couldn't be clearer. All of this benefits the EU

Wrong.

Last thing the aristocrats in the EU want right now is nationalism. The official narrative is that nationalism is violent evil nazi fascism.

They are not worried because they care about Catalonia, but because this is hurting their narrative. They want is solved, quickly, so they can go back to "nationalism is evil, nationalism is violent".

Anonymous Yann October 02, 2017 11:23 AM  

Vete a tomar por donde amargan los pepinos, catalufo supremacista. Aunque te guste.

I'm not Catalan. I am Basque.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( i'm sorry you raped Andrea Dworkin and i disavow your Patriarchal Cisheteronormative Bourgeois Consciousness in shame ) October 02, 2017 11:28 AM  

VD
To absolutely no one's surprise



except to all of the non-Catalonian Spanish commenters here.


16. Sam Spade October 02, 2017 8:52 AM
By the way, there were a lot of protests across Spain included Madrid complaining about govern management of the Catalonian situation.



garsh.

it seems like just yesterday that multiple Spaniards were on here telling us how right and awesome the actions of the National Police were?

it's almost like we don't have any idea what we're talking about.

until everything we predict comes true.

Anonymous BBGKB October 02, 2017 11:33 AM  

Now, I am as dubious as anyone else about the accuracy of the reported vote

When ever people start saying Viva Viva Viva, I would expect over 100% of the vote to be more accurate.

Star Trek discovery is getting a huge ass audience.So much for "SJW" convergence scaring away audiences!

We already know SJWs have huge asses, they can't pull away from the all you can eat buffet.

Anonymous johnc October 02, 2017 11:42 AM  

I read that Soros had been supporting (funding) the independence movement. I wonder what his end goal is?

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 02, 2017 11:43 AM  

@37

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLHhmuqXkAEWTkz.jpg


Drudge had that pic last night. Looked like fake blood to me then. Today? Still looks fake. People have been faking injuries for political gains for years and years.

So what?

Anonymous NadieEspera October 02, 2017 11:44 AM  

Cagari, entonces.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 02, 2017 11:50 AM  

Pallywood, Pallywood über alles.

Blogger kurt9 October 02, 2017 12:11 PM  

Spengler (David Goldman) also supports Catalonia independence.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 02, 2017 12:13 PM  

Spengler (((David Goldman))) also supports Catalonia independence.



So?

Blogger Anthony October 02, 2017 12:21 PM  

If I were Catalan, I'd probably be against independence. If the referendum had been allowed by the central government, I'd have gone out and voted "no". But in the actual circumstances, I wouldn't have gone out except maybe to take pictures. The fact that 10% of the people who did turn out voted no says there's a lot of strong anti-independence sentiment.

I've been thinking that Rajoy looked at the Dorrian and figured that Spain/PP/Rajoy would be better off without Catalonia, and is acting the left's stereotype of the right to make it happen.

Blogger Sillon Bono October 02, 2017 12:26 PM  

I love the whole charade, I have been thinking and the fact that the whole internet is giving their opinions and perceptions is great.

Pretty much this means that anytime anyone wants to do anything all that is required is lots of smiles and uses of the word democracy and freedom to add lots and lots of confusion.

And I will explain a little fact here that people do not seem to understand:

In Spain the riot police act in that manner regardless of the age sex or race of the offenders, clear out or be beaten up.

I know people who were just kids and got arms and legs broken when they were in secondary school for staging unauthorized demonstrations.

If the government says we're sending the anti-riot everybody to the last monkey knows what follows.

So I ask, were the Catalonian politicians at the front of the demonstration so they could receive their ration of police baton? No, isn't?

Only the useful idiots got beaten up.

Anonymous Yann October 02, 2017 12:26 PM  

I read that Soros had been supporting (funding) the independence movement. I wonder what his end goal is

Manipulative news.

Soros have been funding one agency called Diplocat which is employed by the Catalan government. And this is it. The links between Soros and Diplocat were published by La Vanguardia, which is the main pro-independence newspaper.

Of course, this is no good, and it's about Soros trying to influence policies in Catalonia. But it's no different from what he does in countries like UK or Germany.

Anonymous Yann October 02, 2017 12:35 PM  

So I ask, were the Catalonian politicians at the front of the demonstration so they could receive their ration of police baton? No, isn't? Only the useful idiots got beaten up

Half of the government of Catalonia is in jail right now. They were arrested a couple of weeks ago for supporting independence.

The former president of Catalonia, Artus Mas, is in Court right now. He's judged for having supported independence during his mandate.

The rest of the current government, including the current president, Puigdemont, are said to be arrested by the Spanish police sooner or later (not sure if they will be able, though, any case, the stakes are high).

Blogger Sillon Bono October 02, 2017 12:39 PM  

Yann wrote:Star Trek discovery is getting a huge ass audience. So much for "SJW" convergence scaring away audiences!

Reviews are extremely negative:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5171438/reviews?ref_=tt_urv


The pilot was a nonsensical action-packed 2h long TV movie. Anyone would watch that if like in this case it is packed by great special effects, (the CGI was very good for a TV show) and has great marketing on a well known brand.

Let's see what the audience does once the show slows down and becomes more "Star-treky".

I'm not saying it will not find its audience, but if it goes real star-trek it will bore to death (SJW writting) and if it continues with the action movie trope it will tire the audience fast (SJW characters are unlikable as they are not heroic).

Anonymous Yann October 02, 2017 12:57 PM  

I'm not saying it will not find its audience, but if it goes real star-trek it will bore to death (SJW writting) and if it continues with the action movie trope it will tire the audience fast (SJW characters are unlikable as they are not heroic).

The method they used with the movies was wrapping it in tons of CGI and fast-paced action, so you don't have time to think whether the characters make sense or not.

But you can only maintain the illusion for a while. Star Trek movies (the new ones) flopped in the 3rd one. Star Wars is going down, up to the point Abrahms had to take the rudder in the final one to try to save the day.

In a TV Series wrapping in CGI and fast-paced action is almost impossible, no money enough. You can use the fireworks in the pilot or first one or two episodes. After that, it's about story and characters.

One month. No more. And it'll go down.

Anonymous NadieEspera October 02, 2017 12:59 PM  

A ver, falsario simpatizante de ETA, o de Sabino, que casi es peor, deberías saber que el día 20 no se detuvo a ningún consejero del gobierno de la generalidad.

A Mas lo están juzgando por saltarse la ley, como a todos, no por supuestas razones políticas de chichinabo.

Anonymous Gen. Kong October 02, 2017 1:01 PM  

As for "advising" the fake-Spanish government, its' a strange term unless by "advice" you mean the type of "advice" given by Don Corleone on the many advantages of not refusing his generous offers. The regime in Madrid is a provincial administration of those who own the central office in Brussels, through their lackeys in the EUSSR central committee. Like the badge-gang goondas who beat up on people, etc. the administrators of fake-Spain are accustomed to obeying orders. Obviously, despite all the smirking pious platitudes from "world leaders" and the "international community", the orders to attack the fake-Catalans were issued from those who add zeros to the accounts with the fake money, and few even know who they actually are except Z-man's useful term of "cloud people". The cloud people obviously consider that having two tax farms on the Iberian peninsula (fake-Spain and fake-Portugal) is better than having three, so the fake-Catalans will have to go to the Madrid trough to get their share of slop - as doled out by the Madrid farm-bosses. Meanwhile, zero attention is being paid to the ongoing invasion of the place, or of the rest of Europe.

OpenID aew51183 October 02, 2017 1:43 PM  

I'm not dubious over the 90%+ report.
When you send out jackbooted thugs to beat up anyone who votes under the auspices of "it's illegal/unconstitutional", the guys against the referendum stay home rather than bother with it.

This just leaves die-hard secessionists marching to the polls through truncheons and tear gas.

Usually such votes lose at the ballot box in secessionist areas of the US, so I'm facepalming at the spanish government's counter-productive actions here.

Blogger Sam Spade October 02, 2017 1:45 PM  

"it seems like just yesterday that multiple Spaniards were on here telling us how right and awesome the actions of the National Police were?

it's almost like we don't have any idea what we're talking about.

until everything we predict comes true"

Not me, and despite some unfortunate behaviour in other aspects by one guy, I don't remember any spanish guy lauding the govern actuation yesterday Maybe I passed those messages.

They were criticizing the lying Catalonian politicians which is not contradictory to think Rajoy and his government are toxic and yesterday they took the worst tactical approach, after years of strategic failure. Unless you are a binary thinker, of course.

Blogger Daniel October 02, 2017 2:11 PM  

Except for basques and catalonians, spaniards are DUMB , close minded, brutish and lazy. The dumb part showed strong here

Blogger Jon Mollison October 02, 2017 3:03 PM  

After synthesizing explanations from a few sources, can I check this against the commenters here:

The Catalonian Secessionists are driven in large part by the relatively wealthy Barcelonans with socialist leanings who are tired of seeing their wealth leave Catalonia to be spent on the poorer sections of Spain. Instead, they want to break away from Spain so they can get the socialist subsidies direct from the more wealthy German EU socialists.

Or, more succinctly: Catalonian socialism would work a lot better if only they had a rich uncle to subsidize them and a lot fewer poor cousins so pay for at the same time.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 02, 2017 5:10 PM  

https://medium.com/enrique-dans/the-referendum-in-catalonia-managing-post-truth-politics-389185c866e5

Blogger Chent October 02, 2017 6:38 PM  

To absolutely no one's surprise, the Spanish attempts to stop the Catalan independence referendum completely backfired. Catalan officials claimed 90% of 2.2 million voters

Well, the previous "referendum"/joke also had 90% and the Spanish government didn't attempt to stop it. I don't see the cause/effect relationship.

In fact, the count was not the important thing. In the village called "Palol de Revardit", there were 982 votes in favor of the independence. The problem is that this village only has 472 inhabitants.

There are pictures of a guy voting four times. And a video of ballot boxes that are full before arriving at the polling place. This is democracy, secessionist style.

Now, I am as dubious as anyone else about the accuracy of the reported vote. But seriously, who on Earth is advising the Spanish government? One would think they actually wanted Catalonia to successfully succeed, given how inept and counterproductive their crackdown was.

Inept is an understatement. Retarded is more accurate. It's as if Mariano Rajoy were a closet secessionist and did everything that secessionists wanted. I don't know if it is incompetence or treason.

If some of you know Spanish, this is an accurate commentary about the lousy behavior of the Spanish government.

https://www.enriquedans.com/2017/10/gobierno-listo-gobierno-tonto-la-gestion-de-la-post-verdad.html

Blogger Chent October 02, 2017 6:46 PM  

It turns out that there is a translation into English.

https://medium.com/enrique-dans/the-referendum-in-catalonia-managing-post-truth-politics-389185c866e5

Blogger Daniel October 02, 2017 6:51 PM  

Spaniard insults areb pitiful and sad lol. I can respect a mexican insulting but a spaniard... Its sad

Blogger Chent October 02, 2017 7:09 PM  

Don't worry, Daniel. Don't go to Spain, a country of the first world. Remain in your shithole, south of the Rio Grande. We have many like you in Spain, we don't want more. Don't go to the United States, they also have many like you and this is why they elected Trump. LOL.

Blogger Serge_Tomiko October 02, 2017 7:15 PM  

The libertardianism is strong in this thread.

Blogger Daniel October 02, 2017 7:29 PM  

My stupid family go there for vacation often. Not me. And you are "1st world" because of german suggar daddy. You are unable to have a 1st world country without looting america - too many siesta. I am not mexican by the way.

Blogger Daniel October 02, 2017 7:38 PM  

I want to add, you do not want Latin Americans, not even argentinos o uruguayos that are somewhat close culturally, but are getting filled with Muslim north Africans. Yeah, that's a smart move. Stupid people the Spaniards really

Anonymous VFM #6306 October 02, 2017 7:49 PM  

AIDE: the Catalan people, they don't like Spain very much

SPAIN: hm. what if we sent some cops to kick hundreds of grandmas down the stairs?


AIDE: The Catalan people, no one likes them.

SPAIN: will they like them less if we shoot the Catalans with rubber bullets?

Anonymous NadieEspera October 02, 2017 7:49 PM  

Cuando el burro coge la linde, la linde se acaba, pero el burro sigue.

Anonymous Paul m October 02, 2017 7:53 PM  

90% of 2.2 million is not a majority with a potentail 6 million voters.

Blogger Daniel October 02, 2017 7:54 PM  

Los gallegos se creen que tirando refranes estupidos aportan a la conversación. You look pathetic dude

Anonymous NadieEspera October 02, 2017 8:06 PM  

Posmubién. Pobueno. Mejó que paresé un perriyo lamecoño de ezo que ze te tira a'tobiyo.

Anonymous VFM #6306 October 02, 2017 8:27 PM  

What is this, the Alt-Retardo?

Anonymous NadieEpera October 02, 2017 8:30 PM  

No lo zabe tú bié, pisha.

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 02, 2017 8:34 PM  

Vox, you say "But seriously, who on Earth is advising the Spanish government? One would think they actually wanted Catalonia to successfully succeed, given how inept and counterproductive their crackdown was."

One would think, one would think... what the hell, Vox?

I have explained this at length, in detail, for years, and you keep ignoring all the explanations so that now you can feign shock.

In the great words of Trapero "Bueno, pues molt bé,.."

Blogger buwaya October 02, 2017 8:38 PM  

"But seriously, who on Earth is advising the Spanish government?"

Miguel Unamuno possibly. A great Spanish nationalist, in spite of being a Basque. Channeling Cervantes, as he usually did. Yes, it is Quixotic and extremely Spanish.

" it is despair and despair alone that begets heroic hope, absurd hope, mad hope. "

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 02, 2017 8:42 PM  

My condolences, Antonio, for that wasted time. I am becoming aware of something, seen not only here, that could only be called Hispanophobia.

Seems the Gran Armada of 1588 did something to the collective psyche of the Anglo-Saxon people, and not even the help Spain provided to the 13 Colonies did anything to normalize the situation.

Anonymous NadieEspera October 02, 2017 8:44 PM  

Por cierto, el nacionalismo español apenas existe. Es incompatible con ser cristiano. Ese es el principal error que veo en ese invento del nacionalismo blanco.

Blanco como el borreguito de Norit.

Blogger buwaya October 02, 2017 8:45 PM  

"Seems the Gran Armada of 1588 did something to the collective psyche of the Anglo-Saxon people"

It was rather the rabid anti-Catholicism of the British Protestant elite of the 17th century (which has persisted to this day) that created a host of legends - "la leyenda negra".

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 02, 2017 8:51 PM  

Yes, but the main reason for that was not a feel of intellectual superiority, but base, abject, pure, hateful fear, both of the might of Imperial Spain, and fear too of condemnation, as they positively knew they were not following the True Religion. Renegades do that.

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 02, 2017 9:05 PM  

Thanks, Nadie.

Pio Moa warned me about this attitude many years ago when Lew Rockwell vetoed an article that Lew himself had asked me to write about the Spanish Civil War based on a book by Moa.

El problema del nacionalismo es que se basa en el concepto falaz y moderno de nación.

A mi me gusta AES https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVnAC545f0I , pero no hay nadie más ninguneado en España. Algo similar pasa con DN y VOX.

Blogger Daniel October 02, 2017 9:07 PM  

La fran armada that was defeated and crushed esaily? THAT gran armada? Lol

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 02, 2017 9:15 PM  

These late few days I became to fully understand that position of Pío Moa on the Anglo infosphere that seemed so radical, about not caring what English-speaking people would think.

Looks like if they are not going to bother with your arguments, one could even write in Spanish - same effect, less efforts, and the people that really matter are reached. Some that do not also, but there are means to deal with them.

Anonymous NadieEpera October 02, 2017 9:19 PM  

¡Ele la grasia de' perriyo!

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 02, 2017 9:26 PM  

I used to think that Moa's point of view about them was exaggerated, but now I think Blas Piñar was right.

http://hemeroteca.abc.es/nav/Navigate.exe/hemeroteca/madrid/abc/1962/01/19/003.html

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 02, 2017 9:35 PM  

Almost prophetic, considering that Diem was going to be assassinated the following year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest_and_assassination_of_Ngo_Dinh_Diem

Piñar was also right on some of the defects of the Spanish Constitution, especially the ones that enabled the current turmoil.

Seeing that Rockwell was behind that Von Mises group on Facebook that also got greased by the Catalufos, that sectarian act with you do not surprise me now.

Finally, yes, we have a problem finding some kind of decent right wing party in our country.

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 02, 2017 9:40 PM  

On the the hand...
http://www.institutodeestrategia.com/articulo/nacional/no-habra-declaracion-unilateral-independencia-parte-govern-generalitat-catalunya/20171002165441006673.html

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 02, 2017 9:44 PM  

That would be great news, but we will see. Situation is quite crazy ATM, and I live there.

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 02, 2017 9:49 PM  

For many years I lived just a couple of blocks away from Pujol's home.

This made me smile. I had a friend who lived in that very building, and we used to meet in a bar right next to Pujol's:

https://www.dolcacatalunya.com/2017/10/hoy-delante-can-pujol/

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 02, 2017 9:54 PM  

Have driven a lot in front of that building myself.
"Poor family, their flat has aluminosis" :D

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 02, 2017 9:56 PM  

So what do you think about AES, DN, and VOX?

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 02, 2017 10:19 PM  

Perhaps I like VOX more, but really it does not matter, as none of them will obtain a seat on my province. Looks like Cs next time. Rajoy's PP is not "my" PP.

Went to that conspiracy theory first post about the shooting on Las Vegas. Curious almost all people here bought acritically the Gene version of the referendum, but now they are nitpicking playing at being cool, brainy CIS people. Moa is vindicated, again.

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 02, 2017 10:30 PM  

Yes, that sort of double standard was in part what led me to write the first email to VD about this a few years ago.

PxC supposedly had no chance either and now they have a few concejales. All TVs veto them, except intereconomia. http://www.respeto.eu/index.php/concejales/

Anonymous Yann October 03, 2017 1:04 AM  

Antonio:
So what do you think about AES, DN, and VOX?

NobodyExpects AKA NadieEspera:
Perhaps I like VOX more, but really it does not matter


The term VOX does not refere to VoxDay, but to a Spanish political party named VOX. The three ones, AES, DN and VOX are far-right Spanish parties. And by far-right I don't mean "nationalist", I mean real far-right. That's an important remark since "far-right" is being used very often to label nationalism. Those parties are not pro-nationalism. Those parties are real Spanish far-right.

I write this because it has not been explained in the quoted messages. This is not a Spanish forum for Spanish people, and people here are not expected to know minoritary Spanish parties. Referring to "Vox" without signaling it's not about the blogger but about a minoritary Spanish party is a lack of courtesy.

Anonymous NadieEspera October 03, 2017 1:31 AM  

Vaya con el vasquito pijaito.

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable October 03, 2017 2:47 AM  

One would think they actually wanted Catalonia to successfully succeed, given how inept and counterproductive their crackdown was.

Well... yes. Normally the high-percentage play is to assume stupidity rather than Machiavellianism, but my mental model held that the Catalonian "elite" wanted to narrowly lose, so that they could lazily extort cash and prizes from Madrid without having to do the hard work of governing a sovereign state.

So maybe the Spanish national "elite" saw it the same way, and decided that whatever the result of attempting to block the referendum -- whether succeeding at blocking it from happening, or alternatively causing it to pass -- would be better than living under the extortion threat of secession indefinitely.

Just picture them all on all sides as lazy, indolent, venal, banal, greedy, grasping, narcissistic, solipsistic, decadent and depraved, and you won't go far wrong. That is the "elites" of all the West today.

Anonymous Yann October 03, 2017 3:09 AM  

Normally the high-percentage play is to assume stupidity rather than Machiavellianism, but my mental model held that the Catalonian "elite" wanted to narrowly lose, so that they could lazily extort cash and prizes from Madrid without having to do the hard work of governing a sovereign state

Yes and no. That was the most common mindset a decade ago. Right now the trend has changed, and the people who really want independence are the majority. That doesn't mean it has vanished, though. There's a fight in the pro-independence field, but fortunately, people who really want independence are winning.

More important: Puigdemont, the president of Catalonia, who is becoming more and more popular (which means, powerful), is full pro-independence and he's a bloody smart guy, a kind of "I Claudius" character where people never suspected how skillful he could be. Recommended article (use google translator if you don't speak Spanish, it worths it)

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/2068244-carles-puigdemont-el-segundon-que-termino-arrinconando-a-rajoy

Blogger Galahad78 October 03, 2017 3:18 AM  

I have to agree on our appreciated host's opening remark: Rajoy looks like to be on separatists' payroll.

Blogger Galahad78 October 03, 2017 3:24 AM  

@Yann:

"More important: Puigdemont, the president of Catalonia, who is becoming more and more popular (which means, powerful), is full pro-independence and [b]he's a bloody smart guy[/b]".

Yep, we could confirm this the other day in the interview with Evole...

Anonymous NadieEspera October 03, 2017 3:26 AM  

El etarra de los ocho apellidos vascos se debe estar corriendo de gusto.

Anonymous SciVo de Plorable October 03, 2017 3:55 AM  

Thank you, Yann. I believe that physiognomy is real, so I distrust Puigdemont. He looks very clever. But in the context of today, I can see how that might be what you want or even need.

Blogger bella belinda October 03, 2017 10:28 AM  

True, and without western support they have nothing.

Blogger Galahad78 October 03, 2017 10:41 AM  

@108 Nadie

¿Quién es el etarra de los ocho apellidos?

Anonymous NadieEspera October 03, 2017 10:44 AM  

El cursi que pretende saberlo todo de Cataluña. Vino a decirme que si no tenía ocho apellidos catalanes, no podía considerarme catalán. Se puede añadir supremacista a lo de etarra, por lo tanto.

Mejor no decir nada del demente de Sabino, no vaya a ser que Vox lo encuentre interesante :D

Blogger Antonio From Spain October 03, 2017 11:23 AM  

Rius gets it, again.

http://opinio.e-noticies.cat/la-punteta/thelma-y-louise-en-palau-112817.html

Blogger Galahad78 October 03, 2017 3:27 PM  

@112

¿Ese que habla sobre Cataluña pero no da ni una? Intuyo a quién te refieres XD

Anonymous NadieEspera October 03, 2017 3:29 PM  

Bueno, ya se que esa descripción sirve para el 99% de los que se pavonean por aquí..,

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 04, 2017 3:53 AM  

http://www.outono.net/elentir/2017/10/04/open-letter-to-misinformed-foreigners-concerning-the-catalan-referendum/

Blogger Galahad78 October 04, 2017 9:27 AM  

@Nobody

If you are OK with it, I'd like to share your open letter on Twitter

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 04, 2017 11:51 AM  

@Galahad: It is not mine, that letter is from a somewhat famous Galician blogger, Elentir. I do not know him, but probably he would be glad of the dissemination. Giving him credit would be nice, too.

This is his blog: http://www.outono.net/elentir/

Blogger Galahad78 October 04, 2017 12:01 PM  

@Nobody: will ask him, thank you!

Blogger Paco Rivière October 07, 2017 4:48 AM  

@Jon Mollison
To complete your information:
1. The Catalan Socialists (PSC) are against independence (1)
2. Before the referendum there was a 'wave' of popular consultations, on 2009-20011, (2) in many towns of Catalonia, and a referendum throughout Catalonia in 2014 (3) - called participation process by the Spanish governement (4). Both the 'wave', held last in Barcelona (5), as the 2014 consultation had the least support in Barcelona.
3. It would help your argument to indicate its "few sources"

1) https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partit_dels_Socialistes_de_Catalunya
2) https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resultats_de_les_consultes_sobre_la_independ%C3%A8ncia_de_Catalunya
3) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_referendum,_2014
4) https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proceso_participativo_sobre_el_futuro_pol%C3%ADtico_de_Catalu%C3%B1a_de_2014
5) https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independentisme_catal%C3%A0#Consultes_populars

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