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Thursday, October 19, 2017

Article 155

The Spanish government has announced that it will meet on Saturday to take the first step in suspending the autonomy of Catalonia, and the suspension will then be ratified by the Senate on Monday.

After discussing the matter in some depth with several Catalans, my impression is that they don't really want independence, which explains why they would be quite happy to remain under EU rule even if they were able to become "independent". A lot of this appears to be belated fallout from the scars of the Franco regime's suppression of Catalan language and culture, and an expression of a feeling of a general lack of respect from the rest of Spain.

One American married to a Catalan woman talked about how, despite being warned to rent a car instead of taking their car with plates indicating its Barcelona registration, he drove it to Madrid. And, as she warned him would happen, the car got keyed. He cited this as a microcosm of the general disdain that the rest of Spain holds for the Catalans.

Whether that is true or not, it does seem to reflect the general sense of the population. The problem is that while Spain has attempted to legally grant the Catalans the sense of respect they crave, and then some, by giving them a great deal of political autonomy, it's not simply possible to do so through the mechanism of government and politics.

It may be that what the Catalans really want is just impossible. You can't be simultaneously equal and special. You just can't.

Labels:

87 Comments:

Blogger Markku October 19, 2017 6:01 AM  

It's about time that we suspended the autonomy of Åland, or else gave it to Sweden or Russia.

Blogger Sillon Bono October 19, 2017 6:13 AM  

A lot of this appears to be belated fallout from the scars of the Franco regime's suppression of Catalan language and culture, and an expression of a feeling of a general lack of respect from the rest of Spain.

This is false in so many levels it gives me a headache.

VD, the independentists are professional victims.

The rest of the Spanish regions are tired of their victimised acting.

They were heavily privileged along with the Basque by Franco's government at the expense of the rest of Spain.

No one ever had anything but admiration for Catalans and Catalonia for decades, their planning of the modern parts Barcelona is regarded in the country as a huge achievement of their industrious mentality and aim for excellence.

Then the school brainwashing began, the constant whining of "muh taxes are being stolen", "our corruption is not a problem, is the rest of the country's fault", "we have this much debt because of madrit", "oh nothing works because we do not have the competences", "we have the competences now, but madrit ens roba and we do not have enough money"

And of course persecution during 30 years of anyone's who wouldn't wanted to participate in their secessionist shitshow.

For fcuk sake, they have the cheekiness of talking about prosecution of the catalán language? When they enshrined in law that establishments could have street signs in any language but Spanish??? WTF.

No, we do not hate them, we want them to stop the nonsense.

This shit was one of the reasons the 36's civil war started, they want to start another one, because of "muh rights to our 6%"??? (ask your friends what the 6% is)

Catalonian secesionist are like a mix of (((SJW))), they are exactly that.

Blogger Markku October 19, 2017 6:20 AM  

I'm visiting my parents, and my mother commented that I should run for Member of Parliament on the platform that we donate Åland to Russia.

Blogger Cataline Sergius October 19, 2017 6:29 AM  

You can't be simultaneously equal and special. You just can't.

I keep forgetting you haven't lived here for twenty years.

Anonymous JAMES October 19, 2017 7:14 AM  

I'm still gobsmacked at how the independence politicians just openly lied to their own supporters.

Madrid might actually walk away stronger after this. I never thought that was possible.

Anonymous Überdeplorable Psychedelic Cat Grass October 19, 2017 7:25 AM  

I'm happy they got pwned. Elections have consequences.

Blogger Lazarus October 19, 2017 7:26 AM  

Article from 3 years ago about the 6%

http://fortune.com/2015/01/30/spain-catalonia-independence-taxes-economy/

Blogger xavier October 19, 2017 7:29 AM  


I dunno. we read in both the Spanish and Belgian papers that the Spanish govt took a shit fit because the Belgian PM denounced the violence and asked for both sides to dialogue. Rajoy even threatened to withold the Belgian candidacy for the Europol presidency.

That doesn't strike as behaviour of a super condifident govt on the verge of an overwhelming victory lap
For heaven's sakes the German foreign minister dropped a hint hint bomb to Rajoy to take the opening given by Puigdemont to dialogue.
And Rajoy just blows them off?
I'm sure he'll get an earful on Friday.
Sure 155 will be implemented but how to enforce she 2,5 million will resist and the European will become progressive agasht at Rajoy's vindictiveness.
I think that we'll see the EU squeal at its ineffectiveness

xavier

Blogger Paul Sacramento October 19, 2017 7:43 AM  

Reminds me of Quebec here in Canada.

Blogger xavier October 19, 2017 7:44 AM  


Vox
actually the EU did the Catalans a big favour by bitchslapping them some reality. First by refusing to mediate second for the statements about the jailing of the 2 Jordis has turned opinion about the EU and there's musings of joining the EFTA should Catalunya ever become independent.
xavier

Anonymous AAC October 19, 2017 7:49 AM  

The rest of the Spanish regions are tired of their victimised acting.

Then why wouldn't they be glad for the whiners to be granted independence so they don't have to put up with them anymore?

Blogger Desdichado October 19, 2017 7:49 AM  

Speaking of trying to be special and equal at the same time, I find out this morning that I've been banned from commenting at Breitbart. Presumably for pointing out that there are a number of sources that suggest that there weren't even 6 million Jews in all of Europe during the time frame of the Holocaust, and that the four million who were supposedly killed at Auschwitz was changed and the plaque replaced with one that says that only a million were killed there—yet despite the fact that there are now 3 million supposed dead that are completely unaccounted for, the total number was not changed.

The whole concept of "I want to be equal and special at the same time" seems to be the defining problem facing politics everywhere in the West, in many ways. And it seems to be clearly tied to r-selected behavior patterns.

Blogger Lazarus October 19, 2017 7:58 AM  

Paul Sacramento wrote:Reminds me of Quebec here in Canada.

Some similarities, but a better analogy would be if Alberta had a distinct language instead of Quebec. As a "have-not" province, Quebec receives way too much in transfer payments to have a legitimate complaint.

Alberta, on the other hand, as a wealthy province, has to subsidize Quebec, while being treated with disdain by the federal .gov

Blogger Zaklog the Great October 19, 2017 8:00 AM  

It may be that what the Catalans really want is just impossible. You can't be simultaneously equal and special. You just can't.

So you're saying Catalonia separatism is just like feminism?

Blogger CM October 19, 2017 8:00 AM  

So... basically, Catalonia translates to American Black Nation?

Blogger Lazarus October 19, 2017 8:09 AM  

AAC wrote: The rest of the Spanish regions are tired of their victimised acting.

Then why wouldn't they be glad for the whiners to be granted independence so they don't have to put up with them anymore?


Spain is still suffering from the 2008 crisis. They need the cash that Catalonia generates. If Catalonia is allowed to go, then the next cash cow down will start to act up (Balearic Islands?)and pretty soon Spain will consist of Madrid trying to support a bunch of economic-loser regions.

Anonymous Rick McScrote October 19, 2017 8:18 AM  

When does this Spain thing get interesting? It's like watching chickens peck around in the dirt.

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar October 19, 2017 8:21 AM  

VD

Spain has not been able to get its narrative through.

Take your assertion about "scars of the Franco regime's suppression of Catalan language and culture". This is false. I have in one of my shelves a Catalan translation of "Madame Bovary" from the 60s, which was edited and printed in Barcelona.

While it is true that during the first years of the Franco regime some measures against the Catalan language were taken, these were quickly left behind. During the 50s, 60s, and 70s till Franco's death, books were edited and printed in Catalan, literature contests in Catalan were held, and Josep Pla, perhaps the greatest Catalan prose writer, published all his books in Catalan. And of course, people continued speaking in Catalan.

It is true that the administration and schools operated in Spanish; but now the reverse is true, Spanish has been literally expelled from public institutions under the control of the regional government. They cannot claim Catalan was persecuted during the Franco regime any more than they persecute Spanish. And it must be taken into account that Spanish is spoken in Catalonia as a primary language by 50% of the population.

About Catalans not being respected... The core of Catalan nationalism is its sense of supremacism over the rest of Spain, which they look at with disdain as a people one step below themselves, especially Southern Spaniards. This sense of superiority is absolutely prevalent, but is cunningly hidden from political discourse.

It is difficult to go to a Spanish supermarket and avoid products made in Catalonia. They really occupy a position of privilege within Spain. Catalan nationalism is one of the most despicable and hateful ideologies I know; and what's more, they -always- (as SJW do) lie.

Blogger Desdichado October 19, 2017 8:28 AM  

The only thing that you Spaniards who keep responding to these threads are accomplishing with your crying and whining about the Catalonians is to prove that they are not part of your nation and vice versa. You realize that, right?

Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 19, 2017 8:35 AM  

Yeah absolutely no one believes in equality, a unicorn bearing HIllary Clinton first across the Kentucky Derby finish line will come before human equality.

Blogger Resident Moron™ October 19, 2017 8:36 AM  

"You can't be simultaneously equal and special. You just can't."

Needs to be carved on a few foreheads.

Maybe at the border.

Anonymous Joey Coonarelli October 19, 2017 8:36 AM  

The only way to solve this issue is to have a Flamenco-off; winner takes all.

Blogger Emmanuel Mateo-Morales October 19, 2017 8:38 AM  

"Then why wouldn't they be glad for the whiners to be granted independence so they don't have to put up with them anymore?"

Why do sadists like making people suffer? Furthermore, why would Englishmen or non-Californian American want Scotland and California, at least the geographical expanses, to stay?

Anonymous Steve October 19, 2017 8:42 AM  

Joey Coonarelli - kek

Anonymous zebedee October 19, 2017 8:42 AM  

In Quebec, the Nationalists have no problem dismissing the apparent contradiction between being equal and being special. It's all in how you define equality. When Quebec nationalists look at Canada they don't see nine other provinces, each with its own history, culture and even language - they just see Les Anglais. As far as they're concerned rest of Canada is a homogenous entity from which they are distinct and they would like to see Confederation reformed to make Quebec an equal "partner" with Ottawa. Needless to say this doesn fly in the rest of the country except perhaps Ontario similarly sees itself as the English Canadian heartland and everyone else as being on the periphery. I suspect much the same dynamic is at work with the Catalans - they don't see Galicians, Asturians, Andalusians etc, they just see "Spaniards" and they think they should be equal to these imaginary "Spaniards".

Anonymous Avalanche October 19, 2017 8:47 AM  

@20 "a unicorn bearing HIllary Clinton"

OT, but gave my heart a real lift:

(Short article, 4-min vid! YIPPEE!!)
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/10/judge-napolitano-new-emails-found-anthony-weiners-computer-will-lead-hillary-clinton-indictment-video/


Then this one: Unravel UNRAVEL!!! SHe's falling apart! (I'd prefer she be TORN APART BY WOLVES... but whatever, jail will do!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sezkUmvyxI (the first 9 min! But watching Trey try to pin that Clinton hag down is .... interesting... 22 min -- Ye GODS! She's filthy!! And Trey is AMAZING! )

Blogger Mr.MantraMan October 19, 2017 8:48 AM  

Of course, "diversity" is a synonym of specialness.

Anonymous Avalanche October 19, 2017 8:48 AM  

@22 "The only way to solve this issue is to have a Flamenco-off; winner takes all."

"Dancing with the Politicians"?

Anonymous Reenay October 19, 2017 8:53 AM  

Furthermore, why would Englishmen or non-Californian American want Scotland and California, at least the geographical expanses, to stay?

The argument for keeping California, as I hear it, is that we want the west coast secured. If California went indie because we hate liberals, we lose some pretty significant military bases and ports. What happens if China conquers or buys out California? They'd have land access to the USA.

If I had to choose between a liberal neighbor or a Chinese neighbor, I'll take the liberal neighbor. Especially if we gain enough political power to drive the liberals out. The Chinese? That's a harder rock to budge.

However... breaking up California into 2 states, forming the state of Jefferson, can serve us very well.

Blogger Phat Repat October 19, 2017 8:57 AM  

You can't be simultaneously equal and special.

As our minority class, and womynz, are about to find out.

Blogger Desdichado October 19, 2017 8:59 AM  

Puidgmont certainly looks gay enough to participate in a dance off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtqMreRJ41U

Blogger Desdichado October 19, 2017 9:01 AM  

California isn't "a nation." It's a portion of OUR nation that has been infiltrated by a bunch of Fake Americans, and just in the last two generations or so too. It's been literally sabotaged and taken over by our enemies. Why would we let that stand, based on the principle that "they are their own nation?" No, they're not. They're either traitors or invaders, depending on which group of California Leftists you mean.

Anonymous Martel October 19, 2017 9:04 AM  

We wouldn't want California to stay.

Blogger Desdichado October 19, 2017 9:08 AM  

Not only that, despite the fact that California predictably breaks Leftist because of the major population centers, in reality if you look at the actual numbers, and the county by county results, California isn't a lost cause. What it mostly needs doing is sending all of the invaders and Fake Americans back home. Without all the latinos and dot-Indians, it would break reliably red.

And then, if you add to that the Jews started going back to Israel, then it would be as reliably red than Utah or Wyoming.

Blogger J.M. October 19, 2017 9:17 AM  

Desdichado wrote:California isn't "a nation." It's a portion of OUR nation that has been infiltrated by a bunch of Fake Americans, and just in the last two generations or so too. It's been literally sabotaged and taken over by our enemies. Why would we let that stand, based on the principle that "they are their own nation?" No, they're not. They're either traitors or invaders, depending on which group of California Leftists you mean.

So you gloat upon the possibility of foreign countries breaking up, based on your own prejudices but you fret over the prospect of losing a portion of your own continental sized nation? Pot calls the kettle back I guess.

Blogger Phat Repat October 19, 2017 9:19 AM  

California is going nowhere. Not.Gonna.Happen. Evah; and if the leftist centers of the state must be razed, so be it.

Blogger J.M. October 19, 2017 9:20 AM  

I think many Spaniards would agree to see Catalonia go...if the calculations are made and they have to pay the portion of the infrastructure and service that was paid by the rest of the country...since the 18th century when the Bourbons decided to prop up the region.

Blogger Doug Cranmer October 19, 2017 9:27 AM  

It's similar to Quebec here in Canada in some aspects.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( Fine Purveyor of Quality Artisanal Gorm ) October 19, 2017 9:30 AM  

VD
You can't be simultaneously equal and special. You just can't.



and yet, practically every Leftist position boils down to exactly this formulation.

"I must be considered the Equal of everyone else in Society ... except for all the ways in which Society must consider me to be Superior and Privileged."

i think you know this and that you are just pulling our legs.

pull ALL the legs.


9. Paul Sacramento October 19, 2017 7:43 AM
Reminds me of Quebec here in Canada.


yes, i always enjoy how the entire rest of Canuckistan is required to post all signs in both French and English ... and as soon as you cross into Quebec, all signage goes to monolingual French.

not a whole lot of "Equality" going on there.


12. Desdichado October 19, 2017 7:49 AM
The whole concept of "I want to be equal and special at the same time" seems to be the defining problem facing politics everywhere in the West



which is just the public policy application of Narcissism.

you know, Hypocrisy codified as Law. Thou Shalt Do As I Say, Not As I Do.


18. Alvin von Diaspar October 19, 2017 8:21 AM
They cannot claim Catalan was persecuted during the Franco regime any more than they persecute Spanish.


it's NOT "persecution" for Catalan speakers to not speak Spanish.

it IS "persecution" to force Catalan speakers to not speak Catalan.

and the inverse would be true in the Spanish speaking regions.

i mean, duh?


18. Alvin von Diaspar October 19, 2017 8:21 AM
It is difficult to go to a Spanish supermarket and avoid products made in Catalonia. They really occupy a position of privilege within Spain.



admitting that the rest of Spain is not particularly productive. that's amusing.

tell me, Alvin, would you consider it oppressive to live in Catalonia and not be able to "avoid products made by Spanish speakers"?

it's hilarious listening to you constantly accuse the Catalans of being the problem ... while also constantly demonstrating that all of their complaints are, in fact, True.



29. Reenay October 19, 2017 8:53 AM
If California went indie because we hate liberals, we lose some pretty significant military bases and ports.


a - California has already gone frothing at the mouth Lieberal

b - it need not be necessary to lose the bases. i mean, you're aware of Guantanamo, right?


35. J.M. October 19, 2017 9:17 AM
Pot calls the kettle back I guess.



we already established that the Federal .Gov has the "right" to murder Americans by the hundreds of thousands for daring to express their Will.

Blogger LES October 19, 2017 9:35 AM  

"You can't be simultaneously equal and special. You just can't."

That's what Gilad Atzmon says about the diaspora Jews in his book
"The Wandering Who?"

Blogger Desdichado October 19, 2017 10:07 AM  

J.M. wrote:So you gloat upon the possibility of foreign countries breaking up, based on your own prejudices but you fret over the prospect of losing a portion of your own continental sized nation? Pot calls the kettle back I guess.
Do you speak English, or do you just routinely make up strawmen to argue against? Because I know for certain that my post that you're responding to doesn't say what you are claiming that it says.

Blogger Chent October 19, 2017 10:24 AM  

Prediction 7 confirmed.

As you know, I made a list of predictions last September 28, only to tell you "I told you so". So far, predictions 1 to 7 have been come true, with a 100% of accuracy.

https://voxday.blogspot.com/2017/09/catalonian-update.html?showComment=1506609922805#c8380404761816261497

Blogger Nate October 19, 2017 10:26 AM  

A pox on them.

Blogger Chent October 19, 2017 10:28 AM  

The only thing that you Spaniards who keep responding to these threads are accomplishing with your crying and whining about the Catalonians is to prove that they are not part of your nation and vice versa. You realize that, right?

LOL. Please study basic logic. Your argument is one of the most moronic non sequitur I've ever seen.

You disagree or complain about X = You don't consider X part of your nation. (And logic can go to hell!)

Anonymous Just another commenter October 19, 2017 10:30 AM  

Needs to be a bumper sticker:

Equal or special.
Pick ONE

Blogger Chent October 19, 2017 10:32 AM  

@Sillon Bono

"VD, the independentists are professional victims."

They are leftist people, that is, crybullies. They hit you while they cry and play the victim.

Anonymous OP October 19, 2017 10:37 AM  

Spain is a little interesting. Nearly all of their regions are semi-autonomous, making it rather less centralized than most people assume. For whatever reason, most people tend to think of Spain as being more autocratic than it actually is.

Another thing, about Franco, is that he tried to unify Spain. Spain, like GB and France, is really a mega country inhabited by smaller countries. And although all those people are related closely, there is enough regional and cultural difference in order to create conflict. Franco tried to eliminate a lot of those differences to create a more unified Spain, so he suppressed various languages (at least at first), especially the more celto-latin varieties of Northern Spain.

So, Catalan isn't as special in that regard as the rest of Spain.

Thanks for highlighting all of this. Although it is a little embarrassing.

Blogger Lazarus October 19, 2017 10:53 AM  

Chent wrote:Prediction 7 confirmed.

As you know, I made a list of predictions last September 28, only to tell you "I told you so". So far, predictions 1 to 7 have been come true, with a 100% of accuracy.



Yes, you are doing well. I think you will be right about the rest. Its all one big hysterical negotiation ploy with Catalonia getting more payments back from Madrid.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 19, 2017 11:00 AM  

However... breaking up California into 2 states, forming the state of Jefferson, can serve us very well.

You realize that the state of Jefferson would have exactly zero deep water ports, right?

Blogger Desdichado October 19, 2017 11:02 AM  

Chent wrote:LOL. Please study basic logic. Your argument is one of the most moronic non sequitur I've ever seen.

You disagree or complain about X = You don't consider X part of your nation. (And logic can go to hell!)

You're kidding, right? They prove that they don't consider themselves Spaniards, and you prove that you consider them outsiders too.

This isn't basic logic, it's basic English that you're failing to understand. Or are you somehow confused as to what a "nation" is?

Blogger Arthur Isaac October 19, 2017 11:02 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Arthur Isaac October 19, 2017 11:04 AM  

Empires will fall.

Blogger Ransom Smith October 19, 2017 11:06 AM  

California is going nowhere. Not.Gonna.Happen. Evah; and if the leftist centers of the state must be razed, so be it.
Why not let it leave? The union is nonsense anyways. California is it's own area. Totally contrasting to the South, Midwest, North East.
Balkanization is the future.

Anonymous BBGKB October 19, 2017 11:06 AM  

You can't be simultaneously equal and special. You just can't.

One UNCUCKED man could derail all NFL progress. https://www.yahoo.com/sports/jerry-jones-lone-rebel-group-nfl-owners-can-thwart-progress-amid-anthem-debate-222735756.html

The rest of the Spanish regions are tired of their victimised acting.

Just remember Puerto Rico voted in June not to leave the US. There I was all VIVA VIVA VIVA that we would be rid of a parasite.

If I had to choose between a liberal neighbor or a Chinese neighbor, I'll take the liberal neighbor.

Watch the movie Empire of Dust to see how Chinese understand non Asian minorities. Also CA would likely split between North Cali which would be the decades old Jefferson succession movement and all the bad parts that wouldn't have water.

You realize that the state of Jefferson would have exactly zero deep water ports, right?

It also wouldn't have any running water unless wetbacks could pull of large scale desalination right.

Blogger Desdichado October 19, 2017 11:08 AM  

The only parts of California who want to leave are the cities and immediate suburban areas around LA, San Diego and San Fran. The Central Valley, the North, etc.—they have NOTHING in common with the urban blights of California.

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar October 19, 2017 11:31 AM  

TO: ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( Fine Purveyor of Quality Artisanal Gorm )

"admitting that the rest of Spain is not particularly productive. that's amusing.

tell me, Alvin, would you consider it oppressive to live in Catalonia and not be able to "avoid products made by Spanish speakers"?

it's hilarious listening to you constantly accuse the Catalans of being the problem ... while also constantly demonstrating that all of their complaints are, in fact, True."



And you demonstrate that you have no clue about Spain, which is otherwise the natural thing for a foreigner, presumably an American.

When it comes to avoiding Catalan products, for years in Catalonia they've been marking regional products with the Catalan flag in supermarkets. This has been a subtle way to suggest shoppers to avoid products from other parts of Spain, but, since it takes a "positive" tone ("buy regional products" instead of "don't buy products from 'them'"), it's gone unnoticed.

Catalan industrial power is, to a large degree, the product of privileges granted to the local industry since the XIXth century. Stendhal makes very funny and witty observations about this fact in some of his writings, which you can easily google. These privileges ensured the rest of Spain remained a "captive" market of Catalan textile industry, etc.

But the XIXth century lies far into the past. Franco, who was always welcome by the cheering masses in Barcelona every time he visited, directed (and these are official figures) over 50% of all national industrial investment to Catalonia. SEAT was the result of that. Meanwhile, provinces in the center and south were totally forgotten. Today, the territories of the former Kingdom of Castille have been split into several autonomous regions, many of which are almost empty.

Successive Madrid governments, for the past 40 years, have time and again needed the votes of the Catalan "moderate" nationalists in Parliament in order to pass legislation, and this has always been done in exchange for succulent concessions, privileges and all types of infrastructures.

Catalan victimhood is a way of life rather than a real fact. But well, I guess it takes a lot of reading and informing oneself to actually acquire an accurate overview of the whole situation and all the arguments from the different sides.

Blogger Factory October 19, 2017 11:38 AM  

Sounds a LOT like Quebec.

Blogger Desdichado October 19, 2017 11:59 AM  

Alvin von Diaspar wrote:And you demonstrate that you have no clue about Spain, which is otherwise the natural thing for a foreigner, presumably an American.
You've had every opportunity to explain it, over multiple threads. And yet, all that you've ever managed to do is demonstrate exactly what they are complaining about.

One explanation is that there's some kind of magic Spanish juju that only Spaniards can ever understand, and no Spaniard can ever actually explain. The much more likely explanation is that you just aren't very smart.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd October 19, 2017 12:12 PM  

But ... but ... couldn't all we be equally special? There's plenty of room on the short bus.

Blogger Kirby October 19, 2017 12:14 PM  

The only 155 that matters is 155mm artillery. The Catalonia's font have the will or the firepower to do what they want. Now they are set to lose whatever freedom they may have had at the outset.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd October 19, 2017 12:19 PM  

Martel wrote:We wouldn't want California to stay.

We don't want Californians to stay. Californians are Fake Americans, and they have to go. Minus the Californians, California would be a nice place.

Fake Americans have to go, and they cannot take California with them.

Blogger Chent October 19, 2017 12:21 PM  

@Desdichado

Desdichado: If you complain about a group of people, you don't consider them part of your nation.

[Completely stupid. An American person can complain about liberals, SJWs or people from blue states and this has nothing to do about nationhood]

Chent: This is a non-sequitur and moronic.

Desdichado: If you complain about a group of people, you don't consider them part of your nation. It's basic English!

I am convinced with your powerful argument, Desquiciado

I will leave it here. Please feel free to keep on making a fool of yourself.

Your answer boils down to "I say

Blogger Chent October 19, 2017 12:23 PM  

Your answer boils down to "Because I say so".

[Blogspot ate a /sarcasm tag after "Desquiciado"]

Blogger buwaya October 19, 2017 12:24 PM  

Everyone has "magic juju". There is always a mass of cultural priors everyone accumulates in order to create a world view. Most of this is very subtle. Even in the matter of consumer products and their packaging, in driving customs, in the layout of apartment buildings.
This is one reason why living abroad is educational. A very great deal cannot easily be expressed. Certainly not in this narrow bandwidth format.

These cultural priors are a large part of the American objection to immigrants, especially the result of the recent inability to transmit the old American ones to the newcomers.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd October 19, 2017 12:31 PM  

J.M. wrote:So you gloat upon the possibility of foreign countries breaking up, based on your own prejudices but you fret over the prospect of losing a portion of your own continental sized nation?

The United States is an empire, not a single nation. There are several nations that can reasonably be called ``American.'' In the fullness of time, empires always break up into their component nations.

California is a part of the US empire which has been occupied by enemy nations. It must be cleansed. After that, we can talk about which of the American nations gets it.

From over here, I see no good guys over there on the Iberian Peninsula. Whatever the situation in Catalonia and in Spain, nationalists are going to wish nationalists well. If the Catalans and the Spanish are all poopyheads, we wish the nationalist poopyheads well.

Blogger Desdichado October 19, 2017 12:38 PM  

Chent: ***projects***

buwaya: I agree. I lived for over two years in Argentina. Doesn't necessarily make me an expert of any kind on Spain, but I'm not so stupid as to fail to notice that both the Spaniards and the Catalonians are outgrouping each other something fierce. They're not "complaining" about each other, they're establishing boundaries around who is and isn't part of the nation.

Blogger Theproductofafineeduction October 19, 2017 1:13 PM  

@53

Why should we? It's ours, we settled and tamed the land, we built it up the cities and economies, they just moved in for the spoils.

The above sentiment is exactly why Vox states that likelihood of a peaceful partition is almost a non-possibility because if/when things come to a head that is how most Americans are going to feel. In the end, as regrettable as it is, the real question is who want California more and who is willing to pay the higher blood price for it.

Blogger Resident Moron™ October 19, 2017 1:38 PM  

Phat Repat wrote:California is going nowhere. Not.Gonna.Happen. Evah; and if the leftist centers of the state must be razed, so be it.

Turn off the power for a week and they'll do it themselves.

Blogger Resident Moron™ October 19, 2017 1:39 PM  

"In the end, as regrettable as it is, the real question is who want California more and who is willing to pay the higher blood price for it."

Just remember, the object is to make the other son of a bitch pay.

Blogger Sam Spade October 19, 2017 1:45 PM  

@ VD "It may be that what the Catalans really want is just impossible. You can't be simultaneously equal and special. You just can't."

That's what I thought the other day when you talked about this in your periscope. It seemed to me that the guy perspective wasn't very coherent. I was sure you were going to realize it.

Anonymous FP October 19, 2017 2:02 PM  

"California is it's own area."

Not really, it is 4-5 areas. Southern CA is dependent on other states for water and some of their power. The Bay Area/Sacramento would probably stick together but I don't see them wanting to deal with the LA basin's problems (aka it is mexico norte). Both would be wisely fighting over the central valley's farmland. Then you have Jefferson in the north and over time they could build deep water ports there or in southern Oregon.

California won't leave because it would kill the dems nationally with the loss of electoral votes. But even if you did let it go, there are any number of legitimate and easy ways to reconquer it quickly and make it a territory. Hell, since they've now made it only a misdemeanor to knowingly infect someone with HIV, including blood donations, you have a ready made excuse there along with non honest elections or violent threats along the state borders.

Anonymous Grayman October 19, 2017 2:35 PM  

@67 Theproduction

In the end, as regrettable as it is, the real question is who want California more and who is willing to pay the higher blood price for it.

You have it backwards. If you are doing it right the other bastard is paying in blood not you.

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his. -General George S. Patton

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 19, 2017 2:50 PM  

Congratulations to our gentle host for start to understanding the gist of the problem. One Basque writer, Jon Juaristi, already wrote with regards to Basque Nationalism, about twenty years ago:

"The problem is not the Basques not wanting to be Spaniards. The problem is Basques wanting to be Spaniards of First Class."

Same could be said of Catalan nationalism.

Anonymous Grayman October 19, 2017 3:13 PM  

@68 Moron

I read a short story somewhere, where after the power went down a small group ran a few targeted false flags against the populations expecting the government to rescue them. The end result being that those ethnic centers in the impacted areas, that had been cut off from power openly attacked the very "authorities" trying to help them.

In a related note California has major infrastructure susceptibility (besides the obvious electrical ones). A substantial portion of its water comes form infrastructure outside of the state....

Additionally careful timing of events to coordinate with weather massively magnifies effects. Chicago going down in the dead of a winter cold spell at -5F..... Keep power down for a few days and the burst water pipes alone would be massively damaging, not even accounting for the number that would face lethal cold.
Atlanta going down in the middle of a summer heatwave and drought. Tempers flare, riots start, fires rapidly run rampant. Heat exhaustion kills the weak and infirm in high humidity high temp conditions.....susceptible water infrastructure of a drought prone city....

There are a lot of short stories to be written about these scenarios.

Anonymous Anonymous October 19, 2017 4:53 PM  

Quebec

CANADA the corporate entity is a legal fiction. Quebec is technically a Holy See.

The Acadian people, victims of actual white genocide, were never adequately taken into account either when the architects of this fake boat met in 1867.

This will be rectified soon.

Blogger Unknown October 19, 2017 4:58 PM  

You can't be simultaneously equal and special. You just can't.

Driving women insane since Eden.

Blogger newbietrader October 19, 2017 5:29 PM  

Catalans sound like SJWs. Every time they got what they wanted from Madrid, like the good leftists that they are, they doubled down.and now they will end up with NOTHING. SJWs ruin everything the touch

Blogger J.M. October 19, 2017 8:46 PM  

Ominous Cowherd wrote:J.M. wrote:So you gloat upon the possibility of foreign countries breaking up, based on your own prejudices but you fret over the prospect of losing a portion of your own continental sized nation?

The United States is an empire, not a single nation. There are several nations that can reasonably be called ``American.'' In the fullness of time, empires always break up into their component nations.

California is a part of the US empire which has been occupied by enemy nations. It must be cleansed. After that, we can talk about which of the American nations gets it.

From over here, I see no good guys over there on the Iberian Peninsula. Whatever the situation in Catalonia and in Spain, nationalists are going to wish nationalists well. If the Catalans and the Spanish are all poopyheads, we wish the nationalist poopyheads well.


Thank you for the correction. I should have used country instead of nation. In reference to Spain, If you are interested I would encourage you to read more about it and abandon your preconceptions, read both sides and come out with your own conclusion...but first read a bit of history of the region, the last few decades, since the time of Franco so you get a full understanding.

Blogger J.M. October 19, 2017 8:48 PM  

Desdichado wrote:One explanation is that there's some kind of magic Spanish juju that only Spaniards can ever understand, and no Spaniard can ever actually explain. The much more likely explanation is that you just aren't very smart.

It seems you are the one who is not very smart. You haven't even read some history about the region but you pontificate over things you didn't even bother to know of. And not only Spaniards can understand the situation, anyone genuinely interested in the truth, not in confirming his preconceptions and foregone conclusions, can do it.

Blogger tz October 19, 2017 9:42 PM  

RUN! As in Bank Run. There are ways of fighting back.

Blogger Desdichado October 19, 2017 10:06 PM  

Sigh. For the most part all of you Spaniards aren't even having the same conversation the rest of us are. I suppose by now I should come to expect that no matter how slowly I try to explain that almost everything you are saying is a non sequetur and a category error, It's clear that you aren't going to understand.

Message received, I suppose.

Blogger Lazarus October 20, 2017 12:07 AM  

tz wrote:RUN! As in Bank Run. There are ways of fighting back.

Capital controls have probably been put in place already. Lefties don't understand money, never have. ATMs are immune to bank runs. All they have to do is shut them down.

The heart stirring scenes based on faith in institutions being derived from the integrity of their owners as depicted in Its A Wonderful Life do not exist in digital currency.

Street Leftists actually believe their own slogans. They are hopeless, hapless, and clueless.

Blogger Lazarus October 20, 2017 12:19 AM  

As a youthful street leftist, I dutifully went to a demonstration against THE WAR and someone helpfully handed me a sign that said NO WAR. As I was carrying out my duties as a useful idiot, marching down the street (while traffic continued to pass on the other side approaching our righteous march)
some rich guy in a sports car (must have been rich) slowed, and yelled at me, "Why no war?".

That was extremely rude, because then I had to think about it.

Well, that saved me from sloganeering, and the guy was probably a total asscheek, but I was saved, nevertheless.

Blogger J.M. October 20, 2017 12:54 AM  

Desdichado wrote:Sigh. For the most part all of you Spaniards aren't even having the same conversation the rest of us are. I suppose by now I should come to expect that no matter how slowly I try to explain that almost everything you are saying is a non sequetur and a category error, It's clear that you aren't going to understand.

Message received, I suppose.


I understood you, you state that since many Spaniards criticize and complain about the people of Catalonia and many Catalonians criticize the rest of Spain, it means that Catalonians and Spaniards are othering each other and are different nations. But when Californians criticize the rest of America and Americans do the same with Californians, and White leftists criticize and even beat and threaten to kill their opponents, they are fake Americans that must be expelled, but not a different nation.

Message received.

For the record, my prediction is that Spain will be split, unless it decides to get the hell out of the EU and recover its sovereignty and its culture. The process already started, not now but long ago.

Blogger Desdichado October 20, 2017 5:54 AM  

Yes! There are different nations within America. They are not split nearly a geographically a tasty though, stop it's not "very California do and everything will be fine."

New England and the northern east coast, maybe. The very coastal edge of the West, maybe. Your mistake is to think of California a of it were Catalonia with its own culture, history and language. Nothing of the sort.

Blogger Alvin von Diaspar October 20, 2017 7:46 AM  

@Desdichado:

You are the one who is making non sequiturs. You are saying that any type of othering that happens within a nation is a refutation of that nation.

Germans have their Ossies and Wessies (East and West Germans), Italians have their terroni and polentoni (South and North), France has a myriad of regions which used to speak different languages up till pretty recently, etc. Modern nation-states far exceed the natural geographical scope of a tribe, and necessarily encompass different regions and differing characters, cultural traits, etc.

It is true that in Spain a deep process of "othering" is underway, whereby many people are starting to view Catalonia as "something else". Still, the prevalent view is that Catalonia is a part of Spain, and this "othering" attitude is reserved for separatists. Catalans who view themselves as Spanish and are loyal to Spain are not othered at all, and they make up around 50% of the population.

Now, this "othering" process consisting in viewing Catalonia as something else is just a reaction to the original "othering", which was the one started by Catalan nationalism. Catalan nationalism began by establishing Catalonia as something other than Castille, and only in the late part of the XXth century, than Spain. But if you read the writings of early Catalan "regionalists", they never deny being Spanish.

So yes, there is a process of othering underway, but not everybody is buying into it, and there is still, simultaneously, a widespread sense of "us" across all of Spain. Which sentiment will prevail? We'll see. History is yet to be written.

Blogger Desdichado October 20, 2017 8:44 AM  

I can't roll my eyes hard enough. It's not a non sequitur. You're just trying to disqualify what I said because you don't want it to be true. I might be wrong. Maybe the compiling and sorting that I see going on will be abortive or will pause and be delayed and Spain will remain Spain—Catalonia and all. Or maybe it won't. But that doesn't invalidate the process that clearly I'm seeing. And clearly you are seeing too; because every time you say I just made a non sequitur, you agree with everything I just said, except you want to downplay it, because the reality of what I just said is a little too much for you to accept without getting emotionally triggered.

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