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Thursday, October 05, 2017

Catalonia to declare independence

Apparently the combination of Spain's actions and the EU's statements have pushed the Catalan separatists over the edge:
Catalonia will move on Monday to declare independence from Spain after holding a banned referendum, pushing the European Union nation toward a rupture that threatens the foundations of its young democracy.

Catalan President Carles Puigdemont said he favored mediation to find a way out of the crisis but that Spain’s central government had rejected this. Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy’s government responded by calling on Catalonia to “return to the path of law” first before any negotiations.

Mireia Boya, a Catalan lawmaker from the pro-independence Popular Unity Candidacy (CUP) party, said a declaration of independence would follow a parliamentary session on Monday to evaluate the results of the Oct. 1 vote to break away.

“We know that there may be disbarments, arrests ... But we are prepared, and in no case will it be stopped,” she said on Twitter.
To paraphrase Ben Franklin, you can declare your independence, but can you keep it? It will be informative to see what lengths Spain is willing to go to keep Catalonia, and what the EU is willing to permit Spain to do.

But, as we know from our study of socionomics, the breakup of both Spain and the EU are inevitable. The pendulum is just beginning to swing back from its credit boom heights.

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96 Comments:

Anonymous CoolHand October 05, 2017 6:32 AM  

What's that people say about history rhyming?

Spanish Civil War 2.0? Between socialists and what? Islamists? Dumber socialists? I'm a bit hazy on this part.

Who do you reckon is gonna try to conquer the whole continent this time? Not the Germans, I think all their warriors got killed in or emigrated out after the last go-round.

It would be rather poetic if the whole of Europe was conquered by Belgium this time through. Turnabout being fair play and all that.

This is one of those instances where I had sincerely hoped that VD would be wrong, but as time goes on, it's becoming more and more clear that he is not (this is my surprised face).

Stormclouds on the horizon.

Blogger Lazarus October 05, 2017 6:38 AM  

Mark Steyn recently asked.

The last quarter-century has seen the rebirth of small nations across the map - Slovenia, Slovakia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Bosnia... Why should that phenomenon confine itself merely to Eastern Europe?

Why, indeed.

Blogger Akulkis October 05, 2017 6:46 AM  

Many national and federal governments used the U.S. Constitution as model for their own. I wonder if our Declaration of Independence was used as a model for Catalan's DoI.

Blogger ZhukovG October 05, 2017 6:52 AM  

So this Iberian game of 'Chicken' continues. I suppose for consistency sake the US needs to declare HM King Felipe VI, 'Literally Hitler' and start shooting Tomahawk Cruise Missiles at Madrid.

Anonymous Post Alley Crackpot October 05, 2017 6:58 AM  

"... threatens the foundations of its young democracy ..."

It's not so much that I'm concerned about whether this reporter is on drugs, but that his silence could allow other people to get hooked on drugs so mind-damaging that you could actually believe that the EU is a democracy.

Just say NO!

Blogger Doom October 05, 2017 7:01 AM  

They have my prayers. I am satisfied with their choices and actions. I might suggest that they don't really have a prayer. But I know they have at least those from at least one. Further, I believe in one right prayer. Not because of the physical actor, it is Who receives that. Can't win, but weren't ever going to walk out unscathed. It is only a question of time and means. Better to go standing and free, for whatever that word means at any given tick or tock.

Anonymous Heteropaternal Superfecundation October 05, 2017 7:04 AM  

"Why should that phenomenon confine itself merely to Eastern Europe?"

Italy has the Lega Nord (Lega Nord per l'Indipendenza della Padania), which goes back to 1991. They're currently the largest party in Veneto and Lombardy. That could be the next one to watch.

In Belgium, there has long been a Flemish independence movement (Vlaamse Beweging) which seemed to make some headway a few years back though I haven't heard much from them lately.

And then there's Germany. Having some southern Germany ancestry myself, I've long hoped for a Bayerisch movement. The southerners are very different, culturally, from the northerners (often derided as "Prussians" whether accurately or not.) For one thing, it's a very Catholic culture compared to the more Protestant north. Bavaria is twice the area of Catalonia with 50% more people (about 12 million) and significant industry, but unfortunately is landlocked.

Anonymous Gurpgork October 05, 2017 7:06 AM  

"threatens the foundations of its young democracy."
What democracy?

Anonymous TheHiss October 05, 2017 7:07 AM  

@5. I think the reporter was referring to the foundations of Spain's young democracy (dating from the death of Franco in 1975), not the EU's.

Anonymous Heteropaternal Superfecundation October 05, 2017 7:10 AM  

Actually a better comparison for Bavaria would be the Czech Republic. They are similar in area and population (27 vs. 30 k.sq.m., 12M vs. 10M), but Bavaria's GDP dwarfs that of Czechia ($660B vs. $196B.) Of course both are landlocked and in fact adjacent.

Blogger Kona Commuter October 05, 2017 7:14 AM  

After Las Vegas I think it's very close to "game on" in the U.S.

Neither the Left nor the Right are talking to each other. They're not even talking "at" each other rather than talking "at" the other for the benefit of their own side.

I tried to stomach Alex Jones interview of Matt Bracken (for the love of the Lord Alex, STFU and let your guest speak). As I understand it he believes the next play is an attack on a Left wing party. The attack may or may not be payback from the Right.

Whilst I'm at this, a Russian blogger posted that the "pussy hat" protests had all the hallmarks of the Ukrainian colour revolution.

One point Bracken made really struck home for me. He said (paraphrased) the goal of those responsible ISN'T to make the US a Socialist paradise. It's to take the US out of the global picture for anywhere up to a decade with internal strife. This fits in with another point I had heard where they said the Ruskies were stirring up strife to entangle the US. This really sucks for me because my nations defence strategy is "and then the USA comes to our rescue".

Lastly. I'm sick to death of all the LARPing on the right. "Don't mistake our patience for cowardice" "We have millions of guns and military on our side". Yeah? All I'm seeing is the left scoring unanswered runs over and over again.

I do hope my friends reading this are training, getting fit and stock piling

Anonymous CrazyJoe October 05, 2017 7:18 AM  

Judging by their performance in the Civil War the Catalonians are likely to spend more time fighting each other than fighting anybody else.

Anonymous NingúEspera October 05, 2017 7:21 AM  

Visca el rei i mori el mal govern!

Blogger Michael O'Duibhir October 05, 2017 7:24 AM  

And what tiny--albeit extremely cunning and powerful--group is at the bottom of all this global strife?

Anonymous Yann October 05, 2017 7:45 AM  

To paraphrase Ben Franklin, you can declare your independence, but can you keep it? It will be informative to see what lengths Spain is willing to go to keep Catalonia, and what the EU is willing to permit Spain to do.

Yes, Spain will be able to keep Catalonia. People don't have weapons in Spain, so the moment the army moves, it's game over.

The question is not whether Catalonia will be independent. Everybody knows it won't be. The question is whether Catalonia will chicken out. Because if Catalonia doesn't, Spain will need to suspend the Catalan government and declare martial law.

Until now, the Spanish democratic government had the card of peace. There were in S`pain a Basque separatist group called ETA that killed about 800 people in 4 decades, and the message was "they are violent, we are peaceful". But the moment they declare martial law and place a puppet to rule Catalonia, they have lost the card of peace. And they can't blame the dictatorship anymore saying "Now we are in a democracy, now it's different".

If Catalonia doesn't chicken out, Spain must become an occupation force in order to take control. And that will change the game from now on.

Anonymous Gurpgork October 05, 2017 7:47 AM  

Heteropaternal Superfecundation wrote:In Belgium, there has long been a Flemish independence movement (Vlaamse Beweging) which seemed to make some headway a few years back though I haven't heard much from them lately.

There were 2 Flemish parties pro Flemish independence, VB and N-VA. N-VA got into power by forming a coalition with 2? other parties, now they removed independence from their party program for the next elections.

I'm not completely up to speed on Belgian politics since I left that sorry excuse for a country some years ago.
I am moving back there in a few weeks because culture>all. I went only 100 km across the border and already everything feels foreign. Every time I came to visit I felt like a fish being put back into the water, being able to breathe effortless again. My kids need to grow up in their own culture with their own people. Integration is a myth.

Blogger Sillon Bono October 05, 2017 7:48 AM  

Michael O'Duibhir wrote:And what tiny--albeit extremely cunning and powerful--group is at the bottom of all this global strife?

The Catalonian political class? The same who tried this since the civil war?

This is a problem that has been in the making for 30 years, Spain government ceding inch after inch in a futile effort trying to appease them.

They want their little communist paradise at the expense of their fellow countrymen.

Anonymous Looking Glass October 05, 2017 7:52 AM  

@1 CoolHand

The EU is the Neo-German Empire already. They just host it outside of their own borders to push the corruption away a bit. Since the EU went fully active, by nature of the the single currency, Germany has all but controlled the EU. France just plays side-kick.

So, it took the Germans 3 attempts, but they finally "conquered" Europe. What we're seeing is the death throws of an over-extended Empire. (The fracture lines are very much similar to what's been going on in the USA, though the USA is far more unified in this context. Thus the dust-up with the Flag and the NFL.) Though it's really the single currency that's crushing them. It forces everyone into an economic model that their geography mostly can't absorb. Economics causes a lot of wars.


@9 TheHiss

Somewhere around 60-80 years after Self-rule is established, there's normally a big dust-up in a country as the first generation that grew up under self-rule takes full power. The power-base having functionally lost personal history with the "time before". It's not always a civil war, but there's normally some significant changes that occur. Spain may be entering that as well.


@7 Heteropaternal Superfecundation

Italy is functionally a Federation, as it stands. "Italian Democracy" in a different environment might be a punchline. We think of Rome of old, but Italy has been city-states for a couple of thousands of years. They just semi-united in the late 1800s. Though, being Italian, they might just stuck together while everyone else breaks apart just to spite the rest of Europe.

Anonymous Basket of Deplorables October 05, 2017 7:53 AM  

I bear no ill will towards the Spanish or Catalans, but it would be good for the rest of the world to get a refresher in the way world history works. Whether Spain and Catalonia, Saudi Arabian and Qatar, China and North Korea or Tibet, Russia/Georgia, Arabs and Israelis, Brazil and Uruguay, whichever. It would be a disaster for the vanquished, and morally damaging for the victor, but some people somewhere needs to have their men slaughtered and scattered into slavery and genetic oblivion, their land and women taken by force. It has been the way of the world for millennia, and many people in the modern world needs a reminder it still is and history is not over.

Anonymous Gurpgork October 05, 2017 7:54 AM  

CoolHand wrote:It would be rather poetic if the whole of Europe was conquered by Belgium this time through. Turnabout being fair play and all that.

And that would actually be worse than the EU.

Anonymous Looking Glass October 05, 2017 8:02 AM  

@11 Kona Commuter

White-Purple Revolution. Go look at Trump's address to Congress and all of the Democratic Females in White with purple broaches. They were working to establish a revolution in the same vein that they've used in other places. Trump's Team of Military Spooks then took over and I get the feeling there's questions about where some people went that you really don't want to answers to.

Trump has never been an Outsider. He's a Kingpin from a different part of the country with one of the deepest reverses of connections in the security services. He may be a Civic Nationalist, but he's still the avatar of the Nationalist Faction of a lot of groups. The deconstruction of the Globalists will be systematic by the time Trump is done.

Anonymous Yann October 05, 2017 8:10 AM  

This is a problem that has been in the making for 30 years, Spain government ceding inch after inch in a futile effort trying to appease them.

The ceding inch after inch were the transferences established in the Autonomic Law from 1979. I repeat: 1979, 40 years ago. Those competences were supposed to have been transferred during the 80s. Instead of it, Catalonia and Basque Country had to fight inch after inch for what was written in the Law, for the last 40 years. And that was "appeasing".

And right now, 25% of those competences that the law of 1979 said should have been transferred, they have not been transferred YET.

40 years later.

http://www.elmundo.es/pais-vasco/2015/08/08/55c5c85dca47416b118b4571.html

So much for the standard bearers of the law in Spain. The only rule of law that applies consistently in Spain is the rule of double standards.

Blogger Jonathon Davies October 05, 2017 8:22 AM  

I think the EU will turn a blind eye to a lot. They already have. They didn't bat an eyelid at the news of troops being deployed. True colours are being shown what is really telling is the number of pro-EU fools in the UK who are doing mental gymnastics to still justify supporting the EU.

Anonymous Catalostrophe October 05, 2017 8:28 AM  

@15

"Spain will be able to keep Catalonia. People don't have weapons in Spain, so the moment the army moves, it's game over."

Catalonia can run weaponry in via its ports, unless Spain sets up a naval blockade, which is possible, but would really be considered an escalation and probably a human rights issue for the EU -- i.e. are they letting aid and food in?

Anonymous Yann October 05, 2017 8:29 AM  

By the way, quite a interesting interview to Jordi Savall in Le Nouvel Observateur about Catalonia.

(In case somebody doesn't know, Jordi Savall is likely the most important performer of Viola da Gamba and one of the top performers of Early Music and Music from the Renaissance in the world)

http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/monde/20171004.OBS5534/jordi-savall-l-espagne-croit-elle-pouvoir-reduire-au-silence-des-millions-de-catalans-par-la-force.html

Blogger Nate October 05, 2017 8:31 AM  

i look forward to shouts of "TRAITORS!" and support for the invasion and destruction of catalonia.

Blogger Nate October 05, 2017 8:32 AM  

of course that won't happen. secession is only bad when its happening in America.

Anonymous Yann October 05, 2017 8:46 AM  

Catalonia can run weaponry in via its ports, unless Spain sets up a naval blockade, which is possible, but would really be considered an escalation and probably a human rights issue for the EU --

That would be difficult. Of course, you can get weapons, but it would extremely difficult to get them without the Spanish government knowing it. And once known, it would be a legit reason for Spain to suspend the Catalan government.

Right now this is not really a war, this is just the game to get a legit Casus Belli. Catalonia is doing it as peaceful as possible, so in case Spain declares martial law, Catalonia gets a legit Casus Belli for the future.

To understand the situation: imagine you're in the house of a friend and he's a tiresome guy that doesn't let you go. You don't have any real Casus Belli against him. Now imagine you really try to leave, and then he closes the door and points a gun to you saying "sit down". Well, he has the gun, so you're not leaving, but the situation has changed completely. And this is where the stakes are right now in Spain. If the Catalan government doesn't chicken out, then Spain will have to draw the gun and say "don't leave".

i.e. are they letting aid and food in?

There will be no shortage of food or medicines. Having no weapons, Catalonia could be taken in hours by Spain.

Blogger Sam Spade October 05, 2017 9:04 AM  

@Yann, what's your perspective on all Catalonians who doesn't want to secede? Their situation is complicated and they are very high percentage of the population, not exceptions.

Blogger wreckage October 05, 2017 9:04 AM  

@28 and then the infinitely drawn-out occupation...

better for everyone that they shuffle their borders and start work on friendly relations.

Vox says that alt-right is inevitable, and Vox 16 Points make omni-nationalism explicit.

We're seeing the theory tested right now.

Blogger James Dixon October 05, 2017 9:05 AM  

If I were Catalonia, I'd appeal directly to the UN once independence is declared.

Anonymous basementhomebrewer October 05, 2017 9:12 AM  

This dust up will be informative for some but many will choose to not see what happens. If they move forward with separation Spain is going to crack down hard while the EU will stand on the side line. We are going to get images of people being severely beaten and arrested. It may escalate to the point of shooting. When that happens there will be much wailing and nashing of teeth but no one will point out that the Catalonians would have stood a much better chance if Spain had a second amendment. In fact if Spain had a second amendment the shooting likely would have been more limited or may not have happened at all.

Anonymous badhairday October 05, 2017 9:16 AM  

All that's going to happen on Monday is that a lot of politicians are going to sit around and talk about the referendum.

Blogger Johnny October 05, 2017 9:36 AM  

badhairday wrote:All that's going to happen on Monday is that a lot of politicians are going to sit around and talk about the referendum.



That is what should happen.

The problem with this stuff is that there is no knowing who is bluffing. According to the head honcho Rajoy, the Catalans have to submit first or no talks.

Anonymous Yann October 05, 2017 9:59 AM  

@Yann, what's your perspective on all Catalonians who doesn't want to secede? Their situation is complicated and they are very high percentage of the population, not exceptions.

You can get the percentages from the last elections in Catalonia two years ago.

http://resultados.elpais.com/elecciones/2015/autonomicas/09/index.html

More or less:

Pro-Independence: 45-50%
Against-Independence: 25-30%
I'm OK with both: the rest

Those percentages are from the people who live in Catalonia. Take into account that many people there are immigrants or descendants from immigrants, so it's difficult to say what ethnic Catalans think. Among Catalan people I know (and I mean real Catalan people, not Spanish people or Spanish-origin people living in Catalonia) they are either "pro-independence", either "not-care".

I would guess that this 25% unionist is mostly Spanish-origin people. However, this is a bet, no way to know for real. In general Spanish people in Catalonia haven't integrated that much since, as Catalonia is part of Spain, they felt that they hadn't to.

The situation is not easy. Imagine people who are culturally Spanish, people who behave and think as Spanish people, but who have been born in Barcelona so every acquaintance they know live there. They're really not wanted in Catalonia (at least by pro-independence people) but they can't go easily back to Spain neither. It's a similar problem, for example, with Turk people in Germany. They keep being very different from German and don't integrate (and won't integrate), but they don't even speak Turkish and don't even know anybody back in Turkey. So in general those groups feel threatened and can be very aggressive.

The solution according to Spain is to "ReEducate" Catalan people so they think as Spanish ones, this way there's no difference (not kidding, it was said out-loud by the Spanish minister of Education a couple of years ago). But since Catalonia is wealthier and more productive than Spain, this is the last thing Catalan people want, and they're even very afraid of it. Funny thing is that they originally promoted the Muslim immigration to substitute the Spanish immigration and avoid too many Spanish people who would "Hispanize" Catalonia, in order to have two very different immigrant groups that wouldn't join. With Muslims, they have delayed the Spanish invasion, but now they have two invaders at the gates.

I don't see any easy solution.

Blogger ZhukovG October 05, 2017 10:07 AM  

As for the Catalans getting weapons. When there is a market, product appears.

In situations like this there is right and wrong, good and evil. There is also 'politics'; what provides the positive political outcome for the leaders on each side of an issue. Politicians can typically be counted upon to choose what they perceive as the best political outcome without regard to morality.

A skilled statesman does his best to keep his options open. He knows when to be decisive and when to move with caution. Vladimir Putin is a good modern example of such a statesman.

What we see in Spain is politicians determinedly painting themselves into political corners which will likely result in tragedy for both Catalonia and Spain.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd October 05, 2017 10:17 AM  

Yann wrote:People don't have weapons in Spain ...

They don't have gasoline? Propane tanks? Automobiles and trucks? Fertilizer? Machine shops? Flour? Pencils and pencil sharpeners?

Of course they have weapons, if they want them.

Anonymous Yann October 05, 2017 10:19 AM  

As for the Catalans getting weapons. When there is a market, product appears.

The problem is that they can't get them before Spain declares martial law without losing the political war. And they can't get them after Spain declares martial law because Catalonia will be taken in a few hours.

Anonymous Yann October 05, 2017 10:23 AM  

They don't have gasoline? Propane tanks? Automobiles and trucks? Fertilizer? Machine shops? Flour? Pencils and pencil sharpeners? Of course they have weapons, if they want them.

Against guns and tanks? Good luck with it.

Blogger Chent October 05, 2017 10:24 AM  

Apparently the combination of Spain's actions and the EU's statements have pushed the Catalan separatists over the edge:

False. Despite being angry with Rajoy for his retarded reaction last Sunday, there is no cause-effect relationship.

Secessionist politicians have been announcing the declaration of independence for the last months, way before Spain or UE reacted in any way.

The Catalan government even approved a law saying that, if the Spanish government didn't approve the "referendum"/joke, they were going to declare independence anyway.

Secessionist are very good at blaming others for their own decisions. His motto is that of leftist people everywhere "Look what you are forcing me to do". Crybullies as with any other leftist.

Blogger ZhukovG October 05, 2017 10:33 AM  

@Yann: You don't need to hold territory to fight a 4th generation war. Your objectives are political not military. Therefore you only need to inflict injury in such a way as to force Spain to accept your political demands.

Of course that may mean doing some very unpleasant things. But c'est la guerre. Hardly anyone can get through a war without some dirt on their soul.

Blogger Chent October 05, 2017 10:33 AM  

In fact, I predicted the declaration of independence last 28 before any reaction from UE or Spain. See prediction 5.

https://voxday.blogspot.com/2017/09/catalonian-update.html?showComment=1506609922805#c8380404761816261497

If they declare independence, 5 of my 11 predictions would have come true (so far). The others have not come true because it is still too soon.

Blogger Galahad78 October 05, 2017 10:35 AM  

@35 Yann:

"More or less:

Pro-Independence: 45-50%
Against-Independence: 25-30%
I'm OK with both: the rest"

Hard to believe when even CUP heads admitted that they lost this so-called "plebiscitary" elections...

http://www.eleconomistaamerica.pe/elecciones-catalunya-2015/noticias/7033114/09/15/4/La-CUP-reconoce-derrota-en-el-plebiscito-y-descarta-una-declaracion-de-independencia.html

At least, thanks for clarifying who is really Catalan. And who is not.

Blogger Chent October 05, 2017 10:37 AM  

Yesterday, I said that, if Catalan declared independence, banks would flee Catalunya.

Well, Sabadell bank has not wait for the independence and has moved to Alacant (Alicante in Spanish) today. Sabadell bank is a bank born in Catalonia and couldn't be more Catalan (Sabadell is the name of a Catalan city).

The most important bank in Catalonia (CaixaBank) is considering the same move.

While people like Yann are bullshitting you (taking advantage you don't know much about Catalonia or Spain), I am predicting what will happen.

We will see who's right when this thing end. I forgot, we already see who's right.

Blogger Chent October 05, 2017 10:46 AM  

The most radical secessionist are immigrants. People whose parents came from Spain to Catalonia. They become secessionists because they want to be accepted.

With the new immigrants, you see a lot of Muslim people demonstrating for the independence of Catalonia

http://www.alertadigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/moras-sparatas.jpg

They have been promised that Islam would have more benefits in an independent Catalonia.

In the following image, this Muslim man has a sign that reads: "We all are Catalan and we want independence"

https://dolcacatalunya.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/catalanes_de_pura_cepa.jpg?w=300

As you see, pure Catalan race. With these kinds of Catalan secessionist, the future of white people in Europe is safe, LOL!

Blogger Desdichado October 05, 2017 10:53 AM  

Yann wrote:They don't have gasoline? Propane tanks? Automobiles and trucks? Fertilizer? Machine shops? Flour? Pencils and pencil sharpeners? Of course they have weapons, if they want them.

Against guns and tanks? Good luck with it.

That's not how the wars of the future are going to be fought.

Anonymous krymneth October 05, 2017 10:54 AM  

Ok, so Spain can easily conquer Catalan.

Then what?

What happens six months later? A year?

Conquest is a process, not a point in time, and we are by definition already discussing a region with lots of people who don't want Spain to role them. 4GW suggests that active conquest would raise those numbers. And I'd suggest the flabby, rabbit-populated governments of the West can be argued to have little tolerance for the resource expenditures involved.

I'm not making a specific prediction here, just encouraging those proposing this idea to not "end history" at that point and think past it.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd October 05, 2017 10:58 AM  

Yann wrote:They don't have gasoline? Propane tanks? Automobiles and trucks? Fertilizer? Machine shops? Flour? Pencils and pencil sharpeners? Of course they have weapons, if they want them.

Against guns and tanks? Good luck with it.


You hit the weak points, not the strong points. If the Catalans were serious about armed resistance, they could kill whomever, whenever. They could target the families of the Spanish judges in the region, for example. It could be as simple as one dude sticking a sharp wooden pencil into the guts of a judge's wife in a store parking lot, then running away.

Let's hope that they are just LARPing, and it never gets serious, because everything is a weapon when you're serious.

Anonymous VFM #6306 October 05, 2017 10:58 AM  

Against guns and tanks? Good luck with it.

4GW is not won with superior firepower. First kid to Molotovs gets the girl.

Blogger Cail Corishev October 05, 2017 11:12 AM  

Against guns and tanks? Good luck with it.

Afghanistan says hi.

Anonymous Looking Glass October 05, 2017 11:13 AM  

Spanish Civil War 2: Catalonian Boogaloo.

Blogger lowercaseb October 05, 2017 11:15 AM  

Yann wrote:They don't have gasoline? Propane tanks? Automobiles and trucks? Fertilizer? Machine shops? Flour? Pencils and pencil sharpeners? Of course they have weapons, if they want them.

Against guns and tanks? Good luck with it.


What @49 said... It's not going to be a case of can Spain stop the secession, it's can Spain survive the pressures of the necessary occupation. Especially if all the folks have been immigrating start lending an unwanted hand.

Anonymous Gen. Kong October 05, 2017 11:42 AM  

If the Catalonian separatists are actually serious, they call up Kim-Jong Crazy and set up some weapons deals right away. They need to get themselves nukes AFAP and aim them at various cat-ladies and step-n-fetchits in Brussels, London, Paris, Rome and Berlin - not to mention NYC and the various Fake Banana Empire facilities in the EUSSR. Since they no doubt have Musloid banking already in place, which works much the same way that its (((master race))) counterpart so beloved of cat-ladies works, a different sort of debt-racketeering could be fired-up. (Same scam with different scammers running the game).

None of the above will happen of course. The set up of the EUSSR army - whose divisions have already been imported by the millions from the Ummah and Africa and continue to be re-settled there on a daily basis - will be accelerated. The fake Spaniards in Madrid will soon call on the new legions to help squash Catalonia and all additional attempts to escape their okrug. The (((bond holders))) must be paid.

Blogger Sam Spade October 05, 2017 11:54 AM  

@VD "Apparently the combination of Spain's actions and the EU's statements have pushed the Catalan separatists over the edge:"

They have been announcing this for months. It's a reaction to long term Rajoy (and every spanish government since 1978) set of actions. not to recent events.

The last days events reafirmed their intentions.

Blogger Rez Zircon October 05, 2017 11:59 AM  

https://vladtepesblog.com/2017/10/02/the-catalan-caliphate/

Read the comments too.

Soros money is helping fund 'independence'; draw your own conclusions.

Anonymous Gen. Kong October 05, 2017 12:02 PM  

Michael O'Duibhir wrote:
And what tiny--albeit extremely cunning and powerful--group is at the bottom of all this global strife?

Dey dindu nuffinz, dey gwine to yeshiva to beez a rebbe n sheet. Judeo-Christ approves of dis message.

Anonymous patrick kelly October 05, 2017 12:02 PM  

"I do hope my friends reading this are training, getting fit and stock piling "

Have some faith. Successful efforts in these areas and avoiding getting converged, infiltrated, swatted, or Waco'd partly depends on *not advertising it all over the fucking internet*.

"Against guns and tanks? Good luck with it."

No, against the flesh and blood of those behind the tanks and guns where they are vulnerable. Even the few small arms among the populace is enough to start if used wisely.

Nothing worthwhile is sure or easy.


Anonymous BBGKB October 05, 2017 12:34 PM  

"Against guns and tanks? Good luck with it."

Not only is hill country bad for tanks, but 3 rolls of razorwire will mess but their tread. Cutting down trees so they fall diagonally across the road away from your area will make tanks stop.

OT:Lions Gate & Saw movie protest gay blood dontation ban, not that any gays would rush out to donate for free.

Hilarious comment section of niggay screeching against "All types matter"
http://www.towleroad.com/2017/10/saw-blood-campaign/

Also (((JUDGE))) Blocks TRUMP's reversion of Obama's methane leak
http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/353965-court-blocks-trumps-unlawful-delay-of-obama-methane-leak-rule

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 05, 2017 12:47 PM  

Meanwhile, in planet Earth, Catalans, regardless their genetic makeup and/or political opinions, are voting on secession with their hard earned money.

They are taking it out of bank branches located in Catalonia.

Now, please continue your masturbatory fantasies on weaponry, guerilla warfare, and irrelevant historical quotes.

Keep taking your red pills.

Anonymous Ominous Cowherd October 05, 2017 12:52 PM  

NobodyExpects wrote:Meanwhile, in planet Earth, Catalans ...

Not our circus, not our monkeys. However, we are enjoying the show. All ya'll carry on over there.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 05, 2017 1:04 PM  

Meanwhile, in planet Earth, Catalans, regardless their genetic makeup and/or political opinions, are voting on secession with their hard earned money.

Do keep us informed. We wish to learn how such things develop, for future reference. Others in Europe and the Americas will take notes.

If you need a crying towel I'm sure there must be a supply local to you.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 05, 2017 1:54 PM  

The two biggest Catalan banks just moved their headquarters out of Catalonia.

There will be less complaining about taxes being paid in Catalonia but spent elsewhere, as they will not be paid in Catalonia. It could be seen as a way to redress the fiscal imbalance. :D

Thanks, no need of crying towels. Some fine trains would be welcome, or news about their status, at least.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 05, 2017 1:57 PM  

CoolHand wrote:Who do you reckon is gonna try to conquer the whole continent this time? Not the Germans, I think all their warriors got killed in or emigrated out after the last go-round.
Who do you think already has conquered the whole continent this time. Granted they used bankers and fiat currency rather than blitzkreig, but the Germans have conquered the continent.

Anonymous A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Deplorable Cents October 05, 2017 2:01 PM  

The two biggest Catalan banks just moved their headquarters out of Catalonia.

That will have an effect. In 4GW terms it is more serious than all the LARPing Madrid has done with the Guardia. Now the question is what reaction Catalans come up with?

Give up on autonomy? Create institutions that can take the place of the banks?

The latter is difficult because of the huge credit bubble the world is contained within.

Thanks, no need of crying towels. Some fine trains would be welcome, or news about their status, at least.

These trains are fine.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 05, 2017 2:11 PM  

Yann wrote:Having no weapons, Catalonia could be taken in hours by Spain.
How much of the Spanish army is Catalan?
How many are Basque?
How many are Castillians who won't fire on Catalans?
People always assume the military is a monolith that will simply follow orders. In both the US and the Spanish civil Wars, both sides were fought by a national army that split over the independence question.

Blogger Michael O'Duibhir October 05, 2017 2:14 PM  

@17 "The Catalonian political class?"

Are they Jewish?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 05, 2017 2:23 PM  

Yann wrote:You can get the percentages from the last elections in Catalonia two years ago.
The Spanish governement decided two weeks ago to change those numbers drastically. Nobody knows what the percentages are now.

A Most Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Deplorable Cents wrote:That will have an effect. In 4GW terms it is more serious than all the LARPing Madrid has done with the Guardia. Now the question is what reaction Catalans come up with?
They will move their money out of those banks, and into bansk that support Catalan independence. Duh. And when those formerly Catalan banks lose their accounts, others will see the effects.

Choose now who you will serve.

Anonymous Gen. Kong October 05, 2017 3:25 PM  

All this talk of Germans running the EUSSR is quite humorous. Yes there's the alte Deutsche Katzenfrau and assorted drooling step-n-fetchits with German names who serve as the smiling clown-face of EUSSR drive-thru fake-money window.

Folks never pay attention to the details. Remember the bank-appointed Greek prime-minister who arrested Golden Dawn, even sitting members of the legislature? He was appointed to make sure the bond-holders - who on paper is the German regime - were paid. Yet, it was not from Germany that the order came to arrest Golden Dawn. This order was issued during his meeting in Kwa-Bananaland with the (((ADL))). Why would a Greek prime minister have to go see the (((ADL)))? Thought they usually visited the Greek-American church-basement baklava bash when they visited.

So, yes the (((Germans))) did indeed conquer Europe and now rule it through their various lickspittles, step-n-fetchits and cat-ladies, whether in Madrid or Barcelona - who are busy importing the millions of military-age males from the Ummah and Africa to fill the ranks of the upcoming EUSSR military for the 'final solution' for YT. As Mr. Giraldi found out, noticing a jolly (((German))) behind the curtain rubbing his hands has unfortunate consequences. Back to the niggaball pasture for you, stupid goy. Have some more grape-drank.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 05, 2017 3:25 PM  

@65 Snidely
In both the US and the Spanish civil Wars, both sides were fought by a national army that split over the independence question.



No. In theory the USA could have negotiated a departure of the CSA.

The Spanish civil war of the 1930's was a classic, zero-sum situation. One side would end up controlling all of Spain, the other would not. A cage match with no referee.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 05, 2017 3:35 PM  

A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents wrote:No. In theory the USA could have negotiated a departure of the CSA.
Fair enough, the Spanish Civil was not about independence, you're right.
It was, however, fought on both sides by the Spanish Army. However much publicity and sympathy the Communists bought themselves with the Republican Guard, it was at most a footnote in terms of fighting the war.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 05, 2017 4:06 PM  

Snidely Whiplash wrote:Yann wrote:You can get the percentages from the last elections in Catalonia two years ago.

(...)

They will move their money out of those banks, and into bansk that support Catalan independence. Duh. And when those formerly Catalan banks lose their accounts, others will see the effects.

(...)


And the most stupid statement of the whole thread series is found.

Obviously, you never have met a Catalan. We are more tight-fisted than Scots.

I had to laugh heartily at that.

Blogger buwaya October 05, 2017 4:13 PM  

"Fair enough, the Spanish Civil was not about independence, you're right"

Part of it was. The Republican Western Front was held in part by the Basque Republic which had just declared independence (or autonomy; its an arguable question) after the failure of the Nationalist coup. Euzkadi (the formal name) was technically a Republican ally.

This Republic, or at least its control of its national territory, lasted about eight months, though some of its military units remained in the field a few months longer. The government fled into exile in France.

I have a few coins issued by the Republic of Euzkadi.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 05, 2017 4:15 PM  

Ah, the valiant gudaris that, among all the different units in National Army, chose to surrender to...

...wait...

...wait...

The ITALIANS!

Blogger buwaya October 05, 2017 4:17 PM  

"How much of the Spanish army is Catalan?
How many are Basque?"

Anecdotally, not many these days, since the end of conscription. A largish number apparently are Latin American.

Anonymous A Deplorable Paradigm Is More Than Twenty Cents October 05, 2017 4:21 PM  

How much of the Spanish army is Catalan?

More relevant question: what percentage of the Spanish army is Muslim?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 05, 2017 4:25 PM  

NobodyExpects wrote:And the most stupid statement of the whole thread series is found.

Perhaps. Do you intend to comment more, or is this post the height of your idiocy?

NobodyExpects wrote:Obviously, you never have met a Catalan. We are more tight-fisted than Scots.

I had to laugh heartily at that.

Hello, fellow Catalans.

Look, you've already admitted you're a Spaniard who happened to be born in Catalonia. You're no more Catalan than a Moroccan born in Madrid is Spanish.

What part of moving your money from one bank to another for political purposes involves not being tight-fisted? I swear to God, you're such a genius.

Anonymous NadieEspera October 05, 2017 4:34 PM  

Por favor, que se lo explique otro, que a mí me da la risa.

Blogger Pavlosky Ufanov October 05, 2017 4:41 PM  

Chent wrote:The most radical secessionist are immigrants. People whose parents came from Spain to Catalonia.

You mean from other regions of Spain.

There is no Spain without Catalonia.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 05, 2017 4:48 PM  

NadieEspera wrote:Por favor, que se lo explique otro, que a mí me da la risa.
Look, you useless, prancing Secret Queen, you've consistently demonstrated your dishonesty, your unjustified self-regard and your minimal intellectual capacity. No one thinks you're clever or even rational. Give it up and eat a pistol.

Blogger buwaya October 05, 2017 4:56 PM  

"what percentage of the Spanish army is Muslim"

Officially, two battalions of "Regulares" in Ceuta and Melilla, mostly Moroccan natives, or formerly so anyway, there are apparently non-Muslims in these now. I doubt these will be deployed. They also seem to be more para-military these days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulares#/media/File:Regulares.jpg

But there certainly would be some scattered across the remainder.

Anonymous krymneth October 05, 2017 4:57 PM  

NobodyExpects,I was not surprised that you posted that you are in Catalan. But something you really seen to be missing here is that most of us don't really care about Catalan v. Spain, but are entirely focused on the larger issues it raises. We can do that, because most of us are pretty distant from you. I understand that the local issues dominate your thinking, as well they should. But there's a lot less Catalan qua Catalan cheering going on here than you are perceiving.

Which is really making your posting here a dully repetitive continual reiteration of counterarguments against arguments that aren't being made. You should really pick one of engaging with the larger points in this forum, or finding a more local forum to have the conversation you seem to want to have. Because right now you may feel like you're participating in the debate about secession, but you really aren't. Nothing anybody in this comment section thinks matters very much, you may very well be the only one with a vote, and you're wasting what influence you may have here.

Blogger buwaya October 05, 2017 5:03 PM  

I may be badly mistaken, but given everything I think the Spanish government can rely on its military and paramilitary units to stay loyal and follow its orders.

Whether that will suffice and whether the Spanish public will be persuaded to support a military occupation remains to be seen.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 05, 2017 5:20 PM  

buwaya wrote:I may be badly mistaken, but given everything I think the Spanish government can rely on its military and paramilitary units to stay loyal and follow its orders.They would have said the same thing in the 1920s. And the same about the US Army prior to 1858.

Anonymous patrick kelly October 05, 2017 5:35 PM  

"Because right now you may feel like you're participating in the debate about secession, but you really aren't. "

This 1000x, and I'm an admitted barely midwit.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 05, 2017 5:49 PM  

Long text, so prepare your knee-jerk answer to "pompous pseudointellectuals".

I am recalled of that scene of "A Walk in the Woods" where, after the writer explained something, probably about the extinction of the American Chestnut, his bum companion explains that he prefers to focus in the "big picture".

Yes, I am not participating in the debate. I know well enough some (not all and every one) of the issues presented, but I feel like the Philosopher in Plato's Cave when reading some of the arguments presented. I tried to be useful, but that was taken as a show of one-upmanship (game I do not usually play) and received with contempt, as people here is usually smart, and it is not used to being corrected by the first schmuck they find. I thought there were too useless work to do in order to restate the obvious again and again, and I got tired.

We have a saying that could be translated as "the truth is the truth – whether it is expressed by Agamemnon or his swineherd." with the meaning that the important thing is the concept, not who states it. Probably most of you would think "What a Commie thing to say!" forgetting that Communists have no respect for the truth whatsoever.

So, no, I am not interested in discussing with you under a set of conditions I find not conductive to acquire knowledge. I could inject some data I am sure of, or could point some of the most egregious mistakes. Why? Dunno.

I suppose I like how VD presents some things and fights quite successfully the culture wars. I do not buy all his ideology, of course. Also I would not mind getting banned in case our gracious host feels I am overstepping limits. I always could read his blog entries (not the ones about secession as the cure-it-all remedy to world politics, of course).


Back to several questions that were asked:

The Spanish Army is mainly made of Spaniards, plus some immigrants.

The Regulares units are not composed only by Muslims, they have the same make-up as the rest of the Army. And those Muslims are not Moroccan. They are Spanish, born in Spanish soil (yes, magic dirt, get over it). One of the units of Regulares, the Grupo de Regulares de Melilla n.º 52, is the most decorated unit of the Spanish Army. So probably we do have magic dirt.

Some of the most jingoistic of you could thing the Spanish Army is an operetta army, but, frankly, a Colonel of Marines gave me a very good opinion, so jingo could go to pound sand.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 05, 2017 10:28 PM  

One of the units of Regulares, the Grupo de Regulares de Melilla n.º 52, is the most decorated unit of the Spanish Army. So probably we do have magic dirt.
Rather, decoration for valor proves they are not Spanish.

Contrary to your assertion, the fact that your assertions are generally ill received here has much more to do with them being factually, philosophically and epistemologically wrong than any bias on our part.

Please provide a justification, any at all for magic dirt theory.

Blogger Lazarus October 05, 2017 11:06 PM  

Pavlosky Ufanov wrote:Chent wrote:The most radical secessionist are immigrants. People whose parents came from Spain to Catalonia.

You mean from other regions of Spain.

There is no Spain without Catalonia.


Well then. In the foreseeable future, there will be no Spain.

Hasta la vista.

I am mildy sympathetic for your plight, but sometimes one has to face facts.

As I have become more aged, my fealty to my own native land has been tempered by experience. It is a fictional construct based on some principles and ambitions. Nothing more.

Blogger newbietrader October 05, 2017 11:31 PM  

how is this going to lead to the break up of the EU when Catalonia is PRO EU

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 06, 2017 4:13 AM  

@newbietrader

Because the EU is NOT pro Catalonia

@ignoramus whiplash

Fuck off and die.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 06, 2017 4:15 AM  

That @ignoramus whiplash was not correct-

@jobless ignoramus is better.

Blogger Galahad78 October 06, 2017 4:48 AM  

@86

"One of the units of Regulares, the Grupo de Regulares de Melilla n.º 52, is the most decorated unit of the Spanish Army. So probably we do have magic dirt.
Rather, decoration for valor proves they are not Spanish."

Well, History proves you wrong.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 06, 2017 4:56 AM  

Nothing proves jobless ignoramus wrong!

At least, according to him.

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 06, 2017 7:13 AM  

Seen today, about the future of Barcelona: "Detroit in the Mediterranean".

Anonymous NobodyExpects October 06, 2017 7:27 AM  

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLb3QKIW4AEJI1_.jpg:large

Blogger Snidely Whiplash October 06, 2017 2:38 PM  

NobodyExpects wrote:@ignoramus whiplash

Fuck off and die.

Well, there's an irrefutable argument.

Blogger Renewing The Mind October 06, 2017 5:42 PM  

Seems that the Catalan nationalists may not be quite as socialist/communist/left-wing as some people here and around the Alt-right think.....

The socialist party of Catalonia is opposed to independence and is using the Spanish courts to attempt to block an independence declaration:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/05/spanish-pm-mariano-rajoy-warns-of-greater-harm-from-catalonia-independence-plans

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